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Scaling a Business Without Niching with Max Lowy · Better Together

• Shawn Sundsvold: Hey everyone, welcome back to Better Together, the podcast where we talk about what it really takes to build businesses that last. I'm Sean Sunsvold and I'm joined as always by my partner in business and in life, Kelly Sunsvold. Today we're joined by Max Lowy. Max is the co-founder of Attention Trading. They are a full-service digital marketing agency that he started while still in college. What began as high production campus events has grown into a 15 year agency managing millions in ad spend across industries. But Max doesn't believe in niching down in the traditional way. His niche is actually consumer behavior and understanding what makes people move and aligning marketing, sales and operations so attention truly turns into revenue. ⁓ in this episode, we're going to talk about scaling from scrappy beginnings, building systems that support growth. and why real marketing success starts inside the business. So Max, thanks for joining us. Welcome to the show. Max - Attention Trading: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Great intro. Man, that was nice. Shawn Sundsvold: Thank you, thank you. I mean, you had a lot to talk about, so it was, you know, kind of made it easy, right? So ⁓ let's start, ⁓ I think the story is the best place to start for you, right? Like, take us back to the very beginning when you started the business, still in college, you know, what got you going into this and what did those early days look like? Max - Attention Trading: Sure. Yeah, so started the business. say we I have a co-founder Steve. He was one of my fraternity brothers in college. So we started it back in college ⁓ we decided to do events. ⁓ always enjoyed events going to events and I promoting events and we there's something here right and we went to school in New Haven, Connecticut and there's a lot of universities within the area. So you had our school which was Southern Connecticut State University. You had UNH, you had Yale, you had Sacred Heart. You had all these universities that were kind of coming to downtown New Haven. we thought, what kind of events could we be throwing for universities? And so we created ⁓ honestly started with bar crawls. We thought this was good. It was relevant to what we were doing. But we to do something a little bit bigger than just bar crawl. So we called it the U-Crawl bar crawl. And the idea was we were going to ⁓ show up to any across the country and throw the largest bar crawl that that school has ever seen. And so we started it in New Haven and it went really well. We brought it to ⁓ back to New Jersey where I'm from, did well there. And then we kind of did it everywhere. So we went to Arizona and Florida and it was great. mean, we had thousands of students ⁓ doing, participating in ⁓ this event specifically. And then we transitioned into other events as well. And so another one that ⁓ Shawn Sundsvold: Interesting. Max - Attention Trading: sold to you we actually sold this one to universities was called the electric yoga experience and so this was this was an interesting one this was like a mixture between like yoga Zumba and like an EDM music festival. So high production, lots of lights, glow paint, glow sticks, aerial yoga artists, you know, the whole nine. And we would come to the university, throw it on campus, safe event for students. And so the universities would buy it and it was great. And honestly, I still think this event would do really well ⁓ It's just, it costs a lot to produce that kind of event. So, but we did this for a while ⁓ and it kind of just transitioned into more digital, right? So we started building out websites and customizing and coding and getting into the digital side of things. And so that's where it really started back in college throwing some bar crawls and electric yoga experience. And now we're full service digital marketing agency, you doing everything from the web dev design, SEO, AIO. Branding I mean you name it we do it. So it's it's been a it's been a ride for sure Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, for sure. You know, I was just thinking like the bar crawl and like the biggest bar crawl ever, right? I think was the words that you said. like, liability. You've got all these drunk college students on a bar crawl. What kind ⁓ liability would have there? So I'm sure. So kind of, I'm sure that was crazy, right? ⁓ Max - Attention Trading: Yeah. Yeah. We definitely, that was one reason we kind of tapered it down and stopped doing them. Not that we ever, we never had an incident, you know, thank goodness. But we tried to make sure that, you know, we had everything in place. We were ready to go. We always involved the police and the cities and the municipalities to get involved. We also, know, monetization wise, we brought on sponsors. So not only local, but we went after national brands to sponsor. So we tried to do it as the right way. Kelly Sundsvold: Right. Yeah. Max - Attention Trading: as possible and this from scratch and being a college kid wanting to have a good time, yeah, it was tricky to find that balance, but it was a great learning experience for us in what real business actually was. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Right, exactly. mean, especially like just, you know, if you're a similar age, you know, fun and you can be safe about it too. So event marketing isn't where ⁓ agencies start with. Like I can confidently say in my marketing career, event marketing is not what I've done at all. What made and your co-founder kind of think, let's build something around this? Max - Attention Trading: Yeah. Yeah, so in college I had some really great internships. was with Versace in New York and it was specifically for event marketing. And so I from the best of the best, CMO of Versace at the time. She's now the CMO of Todd's Group, Stacey Henderson, who I still talk to. one of my mentors. It's great that can tap her whenever I need to. But I learned the details ⁓ for events, right? And is a great segue into like really anything business-wise because you have to be so detail oriented it comes to things especially at Versace right and so ⁓ went from you a million dollar budget for a single event for a night and because they had those kind of budgets but what I realized was or what I learned was that we had hey here's plan A and we need plan B and plan C because Donatello would come into town for the event and not like plan I and she wouldn't like plan B and she would just throw them out Kelly Sundsvold: Mm. Max - Attention Trading: the window, right? And so we had to have things lined up just in case that happened. And so to as prepared as possible, do it with any kind of gut intuition, intuition we had, but also go ⁓ on any that we did have, ⁓ which again, then it was, it was a little bit more limited of the data that we were able to capture, but we did have sales data and we were putting high end luxury style events on it. So I learned from, you know, the best. ⁓ in a very different industry. never really, you know, my goal was never to get into the fashion industry. was, but I also was a very, I was very different to that industry per se. And so I stood out, which was great. I learned from the best and I was able to take a lot of those learnings and kind of bring them into what we're doing today. And so ⁓ trying to create those experiences on a digital side. So, ⁓ you any of our clients are happy with what we're producing, but they're able to ⁓ Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Max - Attention Trading: give their clients the opportunity to experience what they want them to actually feel. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, that's, I know, just bringing in the college side of it, right? Trying to create those big experiences. Now trying to deliver that same kind of environment for clients. I'm curious, just thinking through those first few years. putting these events together and watching it transition into a bigger marketing agency, what were those first few years like as you guys were putting these things together and watching your business grow and evolve and change into something more along the lines of what you're doing now? ⁓ was harder than expected in that process? Max - Attention Trading: think it's all hard. It's still hard, We're, ⁓ even like today, we're, we're, have growing pains, right? And so ⁓ having our best year ever. Last year was our best year ever before that. And so I think one thing that we've realized and have kind of, ⁓ don't if this is unique to us, but like, this was never really a full time thing for us. Like I always had a W-2 and we did this on the side and Steve always had, you know, his freelance or a W-2 and he was doing this on the side. And so we were, able to build a six-figure agency on the side, was fantastic. And, you know, we kind of picked and chose the clients as we decided to make this full time though. That's when it's like, okay, well now what? Right? Like we, we have more capacity to give, what does that look like? How, ⁓ what what are the systems that we need to be built, ⁓ set up? And then stage of growth, you know, stuff breaks, you know, what worked when we were just two people. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Max - Attention Trading: work when we're, you know, two people and ⁓ 1099s, And support. So ⁓ it's just figuring out those systems ⁓ for to operate efficiently, ⁓ and also, you know, you want to be as efficient as possible with any kind of dollars. And so ⁓ it's kind just like one of those things. It's ⁓ constantly breaking breaking our process and ⁓ building it where we need to be. ⁓ Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. I feel like that is something so relatable to any small business owner, like getting started because we've talked a lot on this podcast even and like we've talked with our clients, you're experiencing it too. Just that those growing pains that happen as you try to scale. And when you try to scale and there's issues in the foundation. you start getting like a little bit of a leaning tower of Pisa thing going on. You got to make sure all those foundational, those systems, those processes, SOPs, all those like quote unquote boring stuff. It really, honestly, it sounds like you guys have gone through that and now you guys are scaling with some really solid foundation, which is awesome. One of the things that Sean mentioned in the intro and it's something ⁓ that you've about too is You know, you've grown without picking a niche in a traditional sense. Did you ever have, like, did you ever question that decision when everyone else was saying, a niche, pick a niche? Max - Attention Trading: Yeah, I mean, I question it all the time when you hear people that have been super successful or they say they're very successful, the riches are in the niches, right? You hear it all the time. We haven't done that because ⁓ me, I ⁓ don't want to narrow or pigeonhole ourselves to specific industry. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Max - Attention Trading: I don't think it's fair to our clients to do that personally. I know some agencies, only work with dealerships. They only work with movers or whatever it is. We like to be able to learn and for us, that's a personal thing. ⁓ We learn more. We don't wanna get bored of what we're doing and we wanna be able to provide a lot of value to our clients. And I think by only doing the same thing over and over and over again, you know. Kelly Sundsvold: right. Max - Attention Trading: I think it's doing a disservice to our clients and it's doing a disservice to us. And so we're able to take some of the data from all different industries to see what's working over here and say, Hey, you know what? This works over here really well. This is a completely different industry. Maybe, maybe if we try this and tweak it a little bit, it might actually perform over here as well. Right. And so we try to just have fun with it because at the end of the day, I don't, I don't know what's going to work. Right. I like to say I have a good gut for marketing. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Max - Attention Trading: I like to see what the data says, but at the end of the day, the consumer is going to tell me what's working or not. And so any agencies like guarantees, I'm like, I don't know how they guarantee because I don't know what's going to work. I'm just basing it off of data and intuition and, you know, things that we see working across the board. And so that's kind of where we're at. And also, I think by niching down, it's it's less fun. As I always say, like I'm creative until I hang out with like Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. No, yeah. Max - Attention Trading: real creatives. But ⁓ know, I like to be creative and I like to ⁓ out new campaigns and you know, when you're only working one industry, I think it can get boring pretty ⁓ And so that's why we ⁓ decided to go that route. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, I share, I definitely share that sentiment. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, again, just kind of thinking of those, you know, as you're developing the business, right? You know, one of the things we talked about when we first talked was as you were trying to get this going, you tried to save your daytime work for things that were revenue generating, right? Which can be a significant chunk of the business when you're small, right? You've to take that time. But then there's the back half of it of the operational piece. right and trying to get all the SOPs and things organized that you briefly talked about earlier. And, you know, one of the things you mentioned in that intro was like, yeah, we had our nine to five stuff that we were doing for the business to grow it. But then I was getting up at 4 30 in the morning to actually build these SOPs and to really set the framework of the business up, you know? So when did you realize that you, you know, you had to go from operator and the person who's doing this work to being the business builder and having to build all these SOPs and things for people to follow so that you could delegate off all of this work. Max - Attention Trading: Yeah. and it, so yes, we, so Steve and I, call them sprints and basically like every three months we'll, we'll do like a month sprint. And that's where we're getting up, whether it's like four 30 or five, and we are dedicating two to two and a half hours of that time for our business, right? What is missing? What do we need, uh, to continue to grow? Because like you said, the majority of the day is spent on client work. And so. Kelly Sundsvold: you Max - Attention Trading: We want to work on the business, not just in the business. We want to continue to work in the business. It's a lot of fun. mean, we're building something that we enjoy and get to do every day. Like, I don't have to do this. I want to do this. And value that we're able to bring to our clients is it's real. And so to do we need to continue to figure out ways to be more efficient, to manage team members ⁓ a little bit ⁓ figure out what communications are going to and again promote ourselves. it's typical marketing agency we were horrible at promoting ourselves and so it's it's constantly figuring out what we need to be doing but we do it in these sprints and so you know it's like honestly every third every three months or so we'll do a month long sprint ⁓ just dedicated to growth growing the business and that's kind of where what we've able to do and ⁓ it's been Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, I mean, you've been in business for 15 years, right? Yeah, so kind of like looking back over the last 15 years, what's something you believed about business now ⁓ you really didn't believe back then? Max - Attention Trading: Yeah. Hmm. I think it's a really good question. think it's super interesting because of where we're at now. And like the tech and the AI, like I honestly, I don't even remember working without AI automations and tools now, right? Like, do we do that? Yeah, so. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, I know, right? I just, I just deleted an AI agent today and I was like, all right, you're fired, you know, because like we didn't need that one anymore. And I felt bad. I was like, I'm letting one of my agents go. Max - Attention Trading: Yeah. Yeah, so it's an interesting question because like... I don't remember. think I've said, and Steve definitely agree here, is like, ⁓ I am idea All right, let's just do it. Let's just try it. And I think I still have that same mindset where I believe that. ⁓ I don't know if it's going work. I think I'd rather fail fast at something. I think one belief that I ⁓ still have though is, doesn't really matter. And like, can't care too much about what people or think, because if I do, then I'm not going to try things. And I think as an entrepreneur and as a business owner, you to, you want to try things because, you know, if you're just static, like you're just not growing. so, you know, even we haven't done an event in a long time, but we have like two event ideas that are just like gold. And I'm like, should we, should we do that? Like, ⁓ I, know, like I don't, Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Max - Attention Trading: And if I honestly like I think for the event piece like if we found like it the right partner to do it with I think we would do it just because we're not focused on it, but like We're constantly thinking. Okay. What else could we do? What else could we offer to our clients? You know even perfect example like our podcast we do a similar podcast out of that you guys okay Well, we could produce a podcast for ourselves. We could produce a podcast for our clients So then we just offer it to our clients and we'll produce your podcast Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Max - Attention Trading: Like those are the things that like I want to continue to just continue to try one, they're money driving, right? Like ⁓ can bring in some revenue that way, but also I think it's providing value and content creation. And it's just different, it's fun. So ⁓ I the one ⁓ thing I think has stayed constant is just like, let's try and if it works, great. If not, we pivot and we try something else. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Max - Attention Trading: I think I reversed your question there, sorry. ⁓ Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, no, it's okay. think, you know, there's a lot you're saying that I resonate with, kind of that, you know, the learning, the trying something, failing fast so that you can, you know, try something new. Like there's a lot that you're saying that I think as an entrepreneur, we need to validate that that's okay. and I were at a party over the weekend and was sitting at a table with a ⁓ sixth grader and Her mom was saying, ⁓ yeah, tell her about your nonprofit. And I was like, this Sixth Critter has a nonprofit? I'm like, what the heck? But it was a really cool idea where she was bringing treats and games to retirement home. ⁓ And we talking about it. we're like, entrepreneurship is something that you foster. Is she going to make millions of dollars at this? ⁓ No. ⁓ ⁓ or should say, not likely. But as you build and you grow and like you have 15 years of pivoting in this business, you've been through a pandemic. Like there is going to be things that you knew as an entrepreneur 15 years ago and that, you know, even this girl that we're talking to, like she might refer back to things that she did in her quote unquote sandbox, you know, when she was first starting out. And those are lessons that you take with you. So, yeah, I think it's so relevant to our listeners sharing that. Max - Attention Trading: Maybe. Yeah, and what I'll say is, you know, ⁓ family, they, you know, we've had a family business for 102 years. So my family's had a moving company. My great grandfather started the moving company. And so it's been my dad and my uncle's, ⁓ excuse running the moving company after my grandfather. And ⁓ I up working on the trucks and, you know, I actually thought that was going to be the direction I went. Right. So I was fourth generation at the family moving company for a long time. And then ⁓ you brought up nonprofit, we actually started a national nonprofit, which we could get into if you want. That's another thing, but it's a lot of learnings, right? And so I've watched my dad have his business, the core business of Loewy's Moving Service for 38 years, And... Shawn Sundsvold: with all. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Max - Attention Trading: I've seen him also start probably another 12 or 13 businesses over the right as a kid growing up and watching him. Yes. Okay. Here's a here's a brand deck and here's like again, they don't look anything like the brand decks we created. ⁓ But you know, just watching some of the things work and some of the things didn't work and watching how quick you can pivot and do things. And I think that was definitely instilled, know, maybe not even on purpose, but between that and growing up Kelly Sundsvold: Great. Max - Attention Trading: working on a moving truck every summer. mean, moving socks, it's the worst, right? It's literally worst. But I learned hard work. I think ⁓ two things specifically coming from that industry has given me the opportunity to... Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, it is. It really is. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Max - Attention Trading: you know, take the chances, but also get up at the 4 30 in the morning and work on my business, even though it's hard, you know, it's not easy to that and to do it consistently. Like it, it's hard. So I think that's something that we've, we've kind of taken from that. Kelly Sundsvold: you Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah, it definitely is, you know, it's kind of a that choose your hard moment, right? You know that there's always going to be something there I'm curious, you know ⁓ you know hearing a little bit about you watch you grew up in a family business. You watched your dad build some businesses, ⁓ know, you've now built, you know, at least this one if not trying to find a couple more to stack on to it, which I find most entrepreneurs do ⁓ They're not just a single business person. They've got a dozen ideas. ⁓ ⁓ is you know, having all that experience what are mistakes? Max - Attention Trading: Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: that you see small and mid-sized businesses making over and over and over again. Max - Attention Trading: So a lot of, people, they know what they know and they don't know what they don't know. I think ⁓ lot mistakes that happen, and this is really hard for, ⁓ you really a marketing agency, right? I think it would be hard for you to say, I say it all the time to our clients and every time I say it, I'm like, why would I say that? But at the end of the day, ⁓ doesn't, what you're doing, ⁓ no actually cares. Like your logo, ⁓ your ⁓ that social post, like it's important to you and your brand, but it's really not at the end of the day either. It's about the consumer. It's about what they feel when they need that service. And so I think the biggest mistake that I consistently see is consistency in putting themselves out there and talking about their service or product or what may be that they're selling. And ⁓ I it's the easiest thing and it's the hardest thing. Consistency is the easiest and it's the hardest thing. ⁓ And also think that people overthink the importance or the thought of importance of ⁓ things when it comes to marketing and branding and just get in their heads and then it just takes too long. You know like I said before I don't know what's gonna work until I put it out there and test and test and test and test and once something clicks then I throw fuel on the fire with ⁓ with dollars right and so Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Max - Attention Trading: I think it's getting in their own ways and just kind of overthinking things. you just gotta start. You just gotta start. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah. With that. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: you know, that consistency conversation, right, of figuring that out for your clients and realizing they're not, you know, doing that same thing. When did you learn that lesson that like, I have to be that consistent voice out there and I want to get off the boom and bust cycle of like, I work really hard to get a whole bunch of clients and then I have to put all that work on hold to go do the work for the clients. And then you have to start that process over. So when did you learn how to step out of that? Max - Attention Trading: Yeah. So. I, I, and it's funny because I always bring up the family moving company for, for this exact question, right? The consistency question, because we've been around 102 years, right? We're one of the largest movers in Monmouth, Ocean County. We move everyone from all the universities, the schools, the hospitals, all the corporate offices, right? And so when I, I love when I go on like ocean cares on, on Facebook, right? And someone, you know, it's a big community and someone's like, Hey, can anyone recommend a moving company? Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Max - Attention Trading: I'm like, how do you not know it's low ease? Like you send out 30 trucks a day down Route 35. Like how do you not know? And so... What it comes to is like you have a brand, a brand that's been around 102 years. They're super reputable. They moved everyone. Every single house has a Lowy's box in it, right? But yet people still don't know or they're asking that question. It's because people come and go, right? They leave. It's new people. And so that's why the consistency has to be so on the And I just learned it from like just hearing people ask questions. ⁓ Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Hmm. Max - Attention Trading: just not know and it's because you're not marketing yourself enough. You're not telling people enough about what you're doing and I get it for us too. It's not like we're, trust me, we're not perfect. We do this. We're trying to get better at this, right? We have clients that we do, know, web development for and like that's it and that's okay. That's the service we sold them on. And then they'll ask us, Hey, do you have a recommendation for someone that can run our ads? Like ⁓ run ads. Like why would you, ⁓ Like it's because we're not telling. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, we've been there too. Yeah. Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: Yes, yes. Max - Attention Trading: Yeah, right. And so so we're not telling them enough You know, we want to find that balance of not being annoying and trying to just sell sell sell because you know we believe in we're your partner and so I think it's important to Understand like you're not telling people what you do how you do it when you do it They don't know you're not there ⁓ first thought and so how do you become that first thought? It's just that consistency of putting content out there. And so Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Max - Attention Trading: We're starting to do a better job for ourselves and we do that for our clients So whether that's you know through traditional PR through traditional marketing digital the social channels like that's ⁓ the name of the game right now Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's for sure. So shifting a little bit to like mindset, know Because hard things happen, right? Uncertainty happens. So how do you personally handle? Seasons where growth feels slow or uncertain or you feel like you've just kind of run out of those creative ideas Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, for sure. Max - Attention Trading: So bring this back to the organization that we started. ⁓ And bring it back to there for a reason. So. It's called Move for Hunger. So Move for Hunger is, they work within the moving industry or the relocation space to rescue food during the moving process, right? And so again, had the family moving business. We saw a lot of waste during the moving process, clothing, furniture, food. People were leaving it behind or throwing it out. And so, you know, I guess 16 years ago we said, hey, what if we ask our customers, can we take any the unopened non-perishables and bring it to the local food bank? ⁓ so we collected 300 pounds of Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Max - Attention Trading: in a month and thought that was pretty cool. Yeah and they we brought to the food bank and they asked if we wanted a tour and honestly we haven't had a tour of the food bank since like a class trip in elementary school and so they told us there was 40,000 people that in Monmouth and Ocean County they didn't know where their next meal was coming from and so you know the area it's you know it's home of Bruce Springsteen and Monjove and these mega mansions on the Jersey Shore and so to hear that number it was really alarming and so we thought you know we're one mover asking a very simple question during our Kelly Sundsvold: Wow, yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: you Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: Hmm. Max - Attention Trading: if every mover was asking this question, right? And so my brother, quit his job. I was doing marketing at Versace and we decided to create this 501c3 nonprofit, nothing about that MPO space, but we saw there was a problem. And the idea how do we take this one industry that gets honestly like the worst rep ever, right? So whenever you hear about a moving company in the news, it's hey, this mover damaged my stuff or ⁓ whatever it is. Kelly Sundsvold: it right. Max - Attention Trading: But there's a lot of really, really amazing movers out there. so fast forward 16 years, for Hunger is now in all 50 states and Canada, working with thousands of moving companies, relocation professionals, corporate housing partners. I mean, we are the nonprofit for that industry, and we've been able to collect and deliver over 65 million pounds of food. so I'm using this platform as a little pitch, but I bring it up for that question specifically because... Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Wow. Kelly Sundsvold: That's amazing. Shawn Sundsvold: Wow, awesome. Kelly Sundsvold: Wow. Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Max - Attention Trading: I came from Versace where I had a million dollars for a single event, right? And then we built this nonprofit where we had zero budget. And so it was very frustrating. was very, it was really hard, especially at first, to figure out how to get creative, to ⁓ in dollars so we could do good work. ⁓ I think that helped me align or aligned with how to be strategic, how to continuously, you know, get creative. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Max - Attention Trading: and doing it for the right reasons. And so, you know, I was at Move for Hunger for eight years full-time, that nonprofit. My brother, he's still the executive director. They got a whole team of 20-plus people now, ⁓ and handle a bunch of their marketing. But I think just making sure that you understand why you're doing things, you're doing for the right reasons, you're working with the right companies. Yeah, at first, you might not always have the ability to kind of pick Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Max - Attention Trading: can choose who you're working with. Fortunately, we're at a point where we've fired clients because they just suck. You don't to talk to us like that. Again, I'm trying to do good work for you, ⁓ we're human, ⁓ It's one those things where I think if ⁓ you know you're doing the right thing and doing good work, hopefully that's the driver for you. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Right. Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, I think there's that level of fulfillment that happens, right? When you watch all those things click and you realize like, I've built this, I'm doing good over here. And you kind of just sit in this place of like, you really like your life. I think it's such a great place to be. I think, I know that's one of the things I love about being an entrepreneur, right? Is I get to create what that looks like for myself. And I don't have to have be judged by anybody else but me. Max - Attention Trading: Yeah. Well, and it's funny because worked for other agencies before. ⁓ has worked for other agencies and we see the things that either are good or bad. ⁓ know, we're ⁓ the time, we're having these conversations. We're like, should we do that? Like that'd be kind of cool if we did it like that. Right. I mean, I took a year and a half and I traveled the world with my family. Right. Just I'm remote anyway. Steve's in Connecticut. I'm here. We have team members all over. So, you know, I rented out my house and ⁓ traveled to 14 different countries. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Max - Attention Trading: me, my wife and my two daughters, right? And so the whole time I was working, but like, yeah, I did that because I was able to. And so I think to your point, like, how do you want to design this and your business? It need to be a set way because that's how marketing agencies do it. Like you can do however you want. Kelly Sundsvold: Wow. Wow. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, good point. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, yeah. I know, I just, love the journey of like how you've created something that just makes you happy. And it started from not something, something completely out of the box with like doing events. And then, you know, you've kept staying outside that box to build a non-niche company, which, you know, again, not as many people are willing to take that extra adventure on, right? So I just, I love that about you. Max - Attention Trading: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and don't get me wrong. Like, I think it hurts us more than it helps us I can actually talk to someone, right? Because like had a conversation yesterday with someone, they're like, ⁓ well, do you have experience in this industry? I'm like, no, ⁓ no, I have experience, you know, ⁓ doing for all different industries. And so ⁓ people that you need experience. I'm like, no, that's the, that's the learn part, the marketing part, the consumer part. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Bye. Max - Attention Trading: Like that's the hard part to actually master right we have that down now. Okay, you want me to learn about HVAC a little bit Yeah, I can do that. That's easy ⁓ But to them that's the most important and so like it's finding a way to get them to understand and so Yeah, we battle that that niche piece all the time Kelly Sundsvold: Right. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Well, Max, this has been a really fun conversation and I appreciate you taking the time to do it and sharing your wisdom and your experience and all of that. Where can people with you and learn more about either attention trading or move hire and the other things you're a part of? Max - Attention Trading: Yeah, so Attention Trading is Attention Trading, all spelled out, .com. I post ⁓ least four days a week on LinkedIn, so come follow me, ⁓ with me. on there. I mean, we're on every social channel and then guess for Move for Hunger, it's MoveForHunger.org all spelled out as well and they're also on every channel. you know, great, great organization doing some amazing work. And yeah, I appreciate you guys having me on. Shawn Sundsvold: Definitely. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, thanks so much for sharing short stories about business. Just really appreciate it, Max. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Max - Attention Trading: No, thanks so much for having me. Shawn Sundsvold: Take care.