Latest / The Relentless Pursuit of Winning Podcast / Scaling with Clarity: Why Human Flourishing Matters in the Age of AI | Art Serna

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Scaling with Clarity: Why Human Flourishing Matters in the Age of AI | Art Serna · The Relentless Pursuit of Winning Podcast

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When the business owners think about scaling something,
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if you grew it tenfold right now,
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would your customer benefit And where would be the
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Mm.
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bottlenecks if you like instantly grew that?
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If you don't have a clear answer,
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take a step back and understand and reassess,
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what you're building.
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Artificial intelligence,
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gonna unlock economies,
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individuals being able to create microeconomies and systems around themselves
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because they are being true to the thing that they're wired to do.
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The future of human flourishing requires you to truly understand human pain,
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so build for people truly.
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Measure what matters and then refuse to scale harm.
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Hey folks, welcome to another episode of the Relentless Pursuit of Winning Podcast.
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My name is Rick Meekins. I am your host today,
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and in our studio we have Art Serna.
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How are you today, sir?
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I'm doing wonderful, Rick. Glad to be here and having this meaningful conversation
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with you and your audience.
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Likewise, my friend, likewise,
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my friend, I am looking forward to diving into this.
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But,
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audience, if you haven't done it already,
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if you would please like, subscribe,
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and hit the bell so that you can get updates every time we drop a new episode.
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And without further ado, let's get to it.
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So, Art, you've got an amazing story,
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you've got an amazing history.
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And I want to give our audience just a little taste of that before we dive deep.
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Sound good?
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Sounds perfect.
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All right, so let us know who you are,
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what you do, and why you do what you do.
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Yeah, Rick, I like to say I live in the intersection of human flourishing,
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technology, and systems. And when I talk about systems,
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I think they're applicable across industry,
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but for me, that was really developed at the proximity of human pain
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in in different sets of industries from government industries overseeing,
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like
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Millions of kids in Texas in foster care to now global health care
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in terms of scoliosis intervention,
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and then supporting leaders that are doing the same.
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But in all of it, my story, as I captured it recently in my book,
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The Unknowns Rising, was about connecting the dots of stories
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of the future builders.
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in this new era that we're all in post COVID,
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have so many friends that post COVID their lives were completely reimagined,
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mine included, that find me in a new environment.
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but at the same time, I backtrack my entire journey over twenty-five years,
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had the benefit of
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Raising millions of dollars, over 19 million dollars for efforts that matter to me.
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And now I'm making a small pivot to say,
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now I want to dedicate it just to narrow down the focus to the things
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to me that matter the most to advance human flourishing.
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And so that's what I wrote about in The Unknowns Rising.
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I do it through two main things.
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So in describing me. So I do it as a leader of Spine Hope,
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which is a global pediatric.
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organization that provides surgeries for kids ages two to 21 across
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the world who wouldn't otherwise have access to this.
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So they they suffer from spine deformities that are impacting their life,
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quality of life, and life expectancy.
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And then the other one is as the founder of Cosmos Renewed,
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which I would I would say that's my consulting advisory work that I
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do to support small to medium-sized business leaders.
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Many of them are
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Latino and or multicultural leaders that are trying to figure out strategy
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in this new world and this new normal.
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How do I build my brand? How do I build a technology layer around
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the work and concept that I have to make it be successful,
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provide for my family? So I'm trying to help people reach the middle class
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by taking their their secret sauce,
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their magic idea in their heart and helping it bring it to the world.
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Awesome, awesome, awesome. I love that.
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I'm gonna use this term loosely,
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you know, business success, success in business.
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A lot of our audience are entrepreneurs.
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And I hear
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Wonderful.
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the stuff that you're working on now seem to be close your heart.
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You know, these
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Mm.
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are things that you're you're passionate about.
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But what I want to hear.
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Because we don't all start we don't start here,
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you know, in a place where we can operate at that level.
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I want to hear where you started from.
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your journey, you know,
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up to where we got now. You know,
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I I I know that you've you've been through a lot,
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you've done a lot of different things.
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So our audience needs to need wants to hear that,
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you know. Because we don't we
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Yeah.
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don't start with, you know, everything's not a win,
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you know, we've we go through it all.
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Yeah, absolutely. So I I like to say that throughline for me,
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I I've got a memory as a child,
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right, growing up in South Texas.
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I grew up between two worlds. was born in Texas,
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so
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Mm-hmm.
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had citizenship early on.
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But my parents actually at the time in in South Texas,
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the the borders were a lot more fluid,
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a a lot more back and forth, a legal migration back and forth.
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And my parents worked across in Texas but had their home when they first
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got married in in Mexico. So I went to school there from K through third.
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Spanish was my first language.
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And so coming in fourth grade was quite a big disruption in terms
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of learning an entirely new language,
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fumbling through all of that. But at the same time,
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they built a ton of grit.
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Right, mindset early on that it I didn't even know I needed,
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but it built it nonetheless. Going through the like discomfort
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of learning something completely new,
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rewiring my brain, understand more about the the the science of the brain during
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all of that journey. And at the same time looking at my family,
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living the hero's journey. So the the entrepreneurial journey of
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Mm-hmm.
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what they would say the the the dream to achieve more for their family.
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So both of them worked and and did a lot of things over the
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a lifetime but I would say they were the first entrepreneurs.
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in our family, and they had the grit to prove it,
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and they did that based out of value for them.
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It was the love of the three kids that all of a sudden they were like 1921,
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they had twins, they weren't expecting twins soon after my younger brother,
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they had three kids. So I I tell people,
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at least for me, there's this this memory in my mind of of sitting
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at night watching television and my parents are not there.
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You know, latchke kids are trying to provide,
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they're working late and and watching out the window and just there
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was this deep longing to say, I really want them to be here.
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And so for me, that was the energy.
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For whatever reason, that's that stayed with me.
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It built a lot of my desire and appetite to do better,
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become better.
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because I wanted to create a system where maybe that wasn't the reality,
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right? That it
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Mm-hmm.
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could balance you, we understood we had needs,
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financial needs. So everything as I look at my life was shaped that
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was the catalytic desire. and you know,
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became a student athlete, became validatorian in my high school class.
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So all of that was coming from somewhere.
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Mm-hmm.
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Most of it
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was healthy. I want something better,
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and I believe it can happen. Some of it just gets all messy with like performance
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and imposter syndrome, all that kind of stuff in the journey.
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But
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Yeah.
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ultimately, that's where the the journey started to say I want something,
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I want to provide for my future family better.
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and I I want to not have to work as hard as my parents did because I believe
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Mm.
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they deserve more more rest. They're doing that now in life,
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but that's that was the genesis.
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And I can unpack that based on where you want to take it.
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But I I that still keeps me going.
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That model of the reason for being and your kind of like what Simon Sinney calls
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the golden circle of your why.
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That was my why.
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Yeah. Yeah the the the why is the why is is so foundational.
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I I love that. It's just you know,
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you can main what is it? You can maintain any what if you have a strong
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why is is that how it is? I th I
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Yeah, somet some
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yeah, yeah. I mean I I yeah, basically.
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I think some of at least I Simon says that is you people don't care what you do,
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they c care why you do it, right?
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Yeah,
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yeah, yeah. So what was your what was your first entrepreneurial venture?
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You know, you're you're you know,
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you've you've got this grit you got this foundational grit,
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you know, you have this vision of,
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you know, bigger picture vision.
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What was your first venture?
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Yeah, I I think my first encounter with entrepreneur was sales and
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it was selling knives in South Texas.
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going door to door and trying
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yeah? The door to door?
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to sell knives and recognized that that just wasn't wasn't quite my fit,
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but I think it was my twin brother,
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he's got the sales gene. That's that's his secret place,
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his happy place. And so I did a bunch of stuff with him.
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So
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I know.
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I believe it was Cutco Cutlery at the time,
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and so we we got
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Mm yeah.
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our
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Yeah, we got our our teeth cut through that in South Texas.
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But it but I realized that in that what that did for me,
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Rick, was connected me with the power of understanding your customer,
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your consumer, the person you're truly trying to we had to sit down with somebody
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you know at their kitchen table and you really seek to listen
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and understand what was their pain point,
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maybe that our product or things like really interact with them
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and realize something as simple as how you hold the knife and and how it feels in.
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Your hand could be a selling point.
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So I understood that very early.
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and at the same time, doing AmeriCorps as an experience in my local community
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as a service year and Americor as a senior taught me something about understanding
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community that I've now extrapolated to understanding people,
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understanding behavior, and truly figuring out what is the job to be done from like
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Clayton Christensen talks about that in business.
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What is the job you're trying to do or your customers trying to do?
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and how do you fit that need?
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Yeah, yeah. what were important lessons about people and perhaps that human
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connection that you learned during that time?
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Well, over time I've I've really been want to think about systems and
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how they come to be, how they're designed.
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you know, you've heard it said systems do what they do.
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They they do what you designed them to do,
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and they do that very, very good.
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So when thinking about working with with people at my scale,
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so overseeing, say, systems of education is an example,
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with a the consumer
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Yeah.
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being the direct consumer, families,
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parents, kids, and understanding in many,
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sadly, many of those large systems are failing,
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fail failing on a very basic level.
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Like, can a child read? Can a child like do basic math?
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And when you look at the numbers,
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they're failing tremendously around around many communities.
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So one,
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I I recognize that The concept of design flaws,
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When the business owners think about scaling something,
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it goes beyond growth, it goes be beyond can you actually get some economies
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of scale as you do that. But when you scale
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You know, and you build those systems,
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you're going to replicate those design flaws.
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And if you're not deeply familiar with your customer base,
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what their true pain points are,
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and and you haven't seen them in their environment.
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Like you can try to solve at a board level from like throw money at the problem,
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like many boards do, like school boards do.
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But unless you've been in the classroom,
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I've had the benefit of working with Teach for America as well,
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and seeing directly what happens in classrooms.
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So I I've been able to now take that,
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those.
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lessons and and help people find what is your magic sauce when you think about
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Mm-hmm.
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your business model, when you think about your strategy,
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when you're thinking about pivoting from what you were doing pre-COVID to the new.
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Do you truly understand that special sauce that makes your whatever product service
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offering unique enough? And should you be thinking about scaling it?
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Because what often
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Mm-hmm.
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happens in these large scale systems is that they have a ton of design flaws.
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And if you know, I I like to ask people,
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like, if your thing, whatever the thing is,
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really, if you grew it tenfold right now,
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What who would benefit? would your cust customer benefit if you were
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to do that right now? And where would be the
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Mm.
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bottlenecks if you like instantly grew that?
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And If you don't have a clear answer,
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I think that's an invitation for you to take a step back
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and understand and reassess, you know,
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what you're building.
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Mm. Mm. How do how do you guide people through that process of refining
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the system so so it works, so it can scale?
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Yeah, I think the logic models,
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I've it's a benefit that you've learned in in social impact ventures,
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really understanding the inputs and the outputs,
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and how do you get to from point A to point B?
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do you can you actually map it out in the more simplistic way?
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And if you can't do that, then that's a good sign that you don't fully understand
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the system that you built or or all the components of it,
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right? So logic models force you to really map out in simple terms,
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you know, all all
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All of the current inputs that you believe are there,
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all of the activities that go into that,
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and the flow between those things.
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So that's typically sitting down with a founder,
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a business owner, or a leader and helping them think out loud and then
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map out directly pen to paper,
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conceptualize it. What is your current system?
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Is it actually doing do you first mapping it out?
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And then the next
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Mm-hmm.
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thing, Rick, is actually testing it in in the actual environment in which
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and this is where many people miss it.
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Actually testing it in the environment of the the actual consumer that will
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use your your solution. as an example,
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You know, there's stories written about an organization that scaled
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and wanted to provide water in in communities in Africa,
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and they had this new prototyping concept of merry-go-rounds,
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right? They'd seen kids play around,
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they said, this is a brilliant idea.
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We're gonna just put merry-go-rounds that as they move,
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it will actually generate what's needed to pump the water and so in and all of it.
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Well, the reality was, and they had all sorts of backing
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and support philanthropy and and influencers behind it,
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was that you know, kids got bored.
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After you
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Mm-hmm.
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know a couple of minutes of doing that.
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And so what ended up happening was women in the community had to be the ones
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to do it. It was, it was, it just didn't scale well because they hadn't tested
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in the actual environment and they didn't understand the cultural nuance
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of what was happening. And I think that's that would be my advice to any founder,
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especially if they're thinking reinvention at this point,
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to really get clear one about the concept,
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right? The logic model.
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And then the other thing is actually testing their assumptions in real in
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in a real environment with their target user.
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Mm, yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense.
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I I always think about it in terms of trying to break the system.
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It's like where where where are those,
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Yeah.
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you know, danger points if if you will,
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and just digging it digging into that.
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taking an engineering perspective,
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I guess. Is that
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Mm.
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kind of what you're thinking?
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Yeah, that deconstruction can be one way to do it,
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absolutely.
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Yeah. What are other ways to do it?
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Well, I mean, I I think for now for you I'm not an engineer.
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I don't know if that's your background,
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right? So I I think it's one way to do it is to take across industry.
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Is there a cross industry application to what you're doing,
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even if it's a test, right? 'Cause even sometimes when you change the environment,
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you learn something fresh. Just like taking a concept and an idea that
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you might love and because you did it in community X that
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and you and you take it to community B or customer B and you actually recognize
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it doesn't work the same. You didn't fully understand it.
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And sometimes even that change in environment context can give
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you good feedback loops to say,
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actually I don't fully appreciate what we really had.
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And doing
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Mm-hmm.
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that just that test can illuminate new things that you can try.
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That makes sense. All right, let's let's get back into your journey.
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So you were you were working up until COVID.
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What what were you doing until that point?
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And then you mentioned that you had a threshold moment at that,
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at that time.
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Yeah, so I was I was leading community level work both in community healthcare
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in the Milwaukee area. So previous to that I was working with Teach
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for America and scaling Teach for America I've been around now 30 years
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and that's when everything got shut down.
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I was in Oklahoma City, learned learned a lot,
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but I knew I wasn't I had not been a teacher.
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I just worked with communities,
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so understood the customer base and working with large systems like Oklahoma City
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Public Schools.
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and I had taken a trip to Nepal,
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Kathmandu. It was a global conference on scaling innovation and a global summit.
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And so I talked to leaders from Nepal and around the world,
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and I recognized that I I needed a new lane to do the work that
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I was passionate about, which again it was it was becoming clear to me.
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It was about human flourishing.
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So I came back and I I wanted to do s work out outs connected to human pain,
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human flourishing, but not centered on education,
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or at least not directly the way it was.
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I wanted to have direct access to the consumer.
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And so I I moved, my family moved to Milwaukee area to support local coalitions
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around healthcare and mental health for young people.
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and that's when we learned a lot.
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We learned about dental care and communities,
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urban communities in the US. so I did that for about five and a half years.
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and at the same time, in that journey,
16:49
I was tra traveling.
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As well, learning more about global things like global equity,
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global justice, access to health care.
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my mother in in my journey went through a cancer diagnosis,
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and I was one of her advocates at the time,
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just because of the English to Spanish language translation.
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And I I that became a pillar of my journey.
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So global health care just made sense that that was something I wanted to do.
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And until October 2020, when I had this deep personal experience that just really
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turned my world upside down in terms of understanding who I was,
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who I was going to become, and became really the genesis of the journey
17:30
of the unknown's rising book.
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Mm. What what what happened that was there something?
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Was there an event or something like that that that inspired that that
17:39
transformation?
17:40
Y
17:40
yeah, I think it was so my grandfather many years ago had
17:45
In South Texas, he was a farm worker,
17:47
never learned to read, but was an incredible man,
17:50
had an incredible drive to support community.
17:53
So he worked in the fields. I mean,
17:55
I still remember him coming home and and the the smell from the trunk that
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was just so honeydew and melons and watermelons coming from his car.
18:06
in in and him bringing them to the family for us to enjoy together.
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But in his journey, Rick, he he was very troubled,
18:13
had a lot of trauma early in his in his life.
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And he had this deep encounter with with God in his journey.
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And that encounter changed him as a man in how he saw the world,
18:24
how he dealt with trauma, and how he dealt with others.
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It it was it was like before and after,
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it was it was so transformative.
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And his entire life he told stories about,
18:35
you know, post that that journey for him.
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how it changed his life. And then at his funeral,
18:40
the the way he was remembered by just community members that had benefited from
18:44
his journey in life all came out.
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All that to say, for me, my over my lifetime I I had a variety
18:50
of encounters with God that defined who I was gonna be as a leader and as a husband,
18:55
as a man, as a as a entrepreneur,
18:57
as a coach, etc. And
18:59
The unknowns rising for me coming out of COVID was trying
19:04
to seek understanding of what is this that's happening after COVID pandemic,
19:09
and what is the future gonna be like.
19:12
And I had to develop begin
19:14
I began this discipline of fasting and prayer,
19:17
right? that was just
19:17
Mm-hmm.
19:18
of kind of the the journey, meditation journey becoming still and
19:21
and having deeper questions. And I
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Mm-hmm.
19:23
I had this deep, I would say spiritual encounter at this gathering.
19:29
That if anyone that's familiar with like Christian doctrine and
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and and like biblical history,
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very similar to a leader, in in those references,
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that story of Daniel, that he had a variety of encounters that he
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saw aspects of what was to come,
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and it deeply
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Mm-hmm.
19:47
impacted him, like physically,
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emotionally, to to the point that there were days that he was just exhausted.
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It was like,
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I needed to rest recuperate from this encounter I just had.
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So October 2020 for me was an invitation into seeing a future that wasn't.
20:02
and to be honest, I and I go into the reference in the book.
20:05
there was another individual in scripture,
20:07
Isaiah, who said, Whoa, I had this powerful encounter,
20:10
and I don't believe that I'm actually worthy for of this thing.
20:14
and I felt
20:14
Mm-hmm.
20:14
very similar to that. It took me five years to really unpack.
20:18
what what happened in that encounter,
20:19
which was seeing an aspect of the future,
20:22
an aspect of new builders that were going to come on the scene that would
20:26
be dynamically different than the current kind of power structure around the globe.
20:30
If you were to say the seven top billionaires that lead and
20:33
and massively are changing the future humanity,
20:36
that it would
20:36
Mm-hmm.
20:37
be different. They would operate from a different norm and they would carry
20:40
a different story. Right. And so I that I didn't fully know what to do with that.
20:46
Yeah.
20:46
Honestly.
20:46
And even for myself, I think when you receive some I I imagine just like
20:52
any entrepreneur, you've got to really be with yourself and determine like,
20:55
am I suitable enough to carry this,
20:57
whatever it is,
20:58
Well.
20:58
this vision, this thing that I just seen.
21:00
and I I was trying to do still two things,
21:03
do the thing that I have been doing.
21:05
and and to do this and try to make meaning of both.
21:08
And I I realized over time in five years that that I couldn't do both.
21:12
Right. I I it something was gonna break and it ended up being that I I
21:16
was the one who broke at the end of that and and at the end of twenty five.
21:21
And that that really all came to giving me a time to step back
21:25
and then determining across really 10 years of personal journals.
21:30
what what all everything I'm telling you now about the story,
21:34
the why, came from that season and to re doing a re pivot,
21:37
which is what I'm doing now.
21:40
You you you you kind of like brushed over,
21:43
you know, a a lot of that. You're you were telling me or you mentioned,
21:46
you know, God was, you know, directing you know,
21:49
some of your thinking, some of your ideas,
21:52
your business direction and that sort of thing.
21:54
and even, you know, with the we'll call it the prophecy,
21:57
you know, that you saw, you know,
21:59
what what were what were those experiences like?
22:02
And and the basis for this is
22:05
know sometimes you know as entrepreneurs,
22:07
you know, we
22:08
Yeah.
22:08
you know we sense something, you know,
22:09
with within us and we don't know if it's
22:11
Right.
22:12
you know just you know a cracker that was stale that we ate the other
22:15
day or you know it's really
22:15
Sure.
22:16
God speaking through us or or something else.
22:18
You
22:18
Yeah.
22:19
know, and so it would be it would be really helpful to get a better get
22:23
get some get some framework around that if if you can.
22:26
Yeah. I don't know if I'm gonna do your question justice,
22:29
but I try my best. So I yeah,
22:31
Do you think that's funny?
22:33
yeah. So I I understood it was different than normal.
22:36
be I I knew that e almost immediately.
22:39
one, it was almost like an out of body experience.
22:41
So the context around me, there it was a room full of people,
22:44
so I wasn't alone.
22:44
Yeah.
22:45
but but I recognized that I it was almost like
22:49
getting you know you the this adaptive framework of leadership of like
22:53
can you get can you get on top you know the can it get in the ceiling look down
22:57
it was almost like it was almost like that.
22:59
I was I was visually seeing what was happening but I but I wasn't I
23:03
was looking at myself as this was happening almost.
23:05
It was it was that type of feeling.
23:07
~ and
23:08
Mm-hmm.
23:09
I knew that there were components like my physical,
23:12
my physiology was being impacted at the moment that this all was happening.
23:16
It's it's
23:17
almost like when people go into when you f if you think about the most extreme sport
23:23
you've ever done or extreme experience where like everything adrenaline everything
23:27
in your body you're just in this powerful moment right it it was
23:30
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
23:31
everything in me was alive it was activated I could I could my senses were
23:37
it just I was in a flow. and so I I knew this this was different.
23:42
And so i in one, it was like this con component of wholeness.
23:47
I I knew like my physical body was alive,
23:50
it wasn't numb, it wasn't it was fully present,
23:53
I guess I would say.
23:53
Mm-hmm.
23:54
My physical self was fully present.
23:56
I could feel things in the room.
23:57
I could feel things around me.
23:59
but two, my like mind was supercharged in that moment.
24:03
It was like this incredible moment of flow,
24:06
of knowing even things I shouldn't know,
24:08
meaning like I I I just have an awareness and and maybe
24:12
in hyperflow people experience something like this deep clarity that was present.
24:16
and then last of all, for for me,
24:19
I I believe you you've got another layer of.
24:21
Being, right? The spiritual component of the spirit of your essence.
24:25
And that that was very present.
24:28
That wasn't like distant in the back.
24:30
It was actually very forward and present.
24:32
~
24:32
Mm-hmm.
24:32
That it it almost made the time slow down.
24:36
So, in all of that, I I don't know that that's a framework,
24:38
but it was it was a three-dimensional experience for me that I knew this
24:42
was this this is different. It wasn't just me daydreaming or
24:46
or like having these cool ideas.
24:47
I knew every aspect of me was like fully present in that moment.
24:52
and then I think to test it for me over time since that October 2020 experience,
24:56
it was being able to share that one journal it down,
24:59
write it down, conceptualize it like what is this,
25:02
make meaning of it, and then sharing it with a group of trusted advisors around
25:06
me to test
25:07
Yeah.
25:07
it. Like, okay. And so it wasn't it I needed to let it marinate and
25:12
and almost get some testing
25:14
pressure test it, ~
25:15
Yeah.
25:15
lay it down for a time until it could be do that.
25:19
So I did that with my like one of my mentors and then some local leaders
25:23
in the community that knew me that were present in that time.
25:25
but I would say I wasn't ready to fully unpack the meaning.
25:29
When you read the book, this this experience happened in October 2020.
25:32
Some of the concepts
25:33
Mm-hmm.
25:34
of what I felt that I saw weren't even around yet at least not publicly.
25:37
So
25:38
Mm-hmm.
25:38
I I do some writing in the book around the available
25:41
Availability of future tools and mechanisms that would change
25:45
and be coming alongside these future leaders.
25:47
And ChatGPT hadn't really been publicly announced until October 2022,
25:51
November 2022. So it was two years.
25:53
~
25:53
Yeah.
25:54
So I didn't fully understand what I saw fully.
25:56
I couldn't have fully appreciated.
25:58
And so I it it took a season of me learning and studying and scrutinizing it,
26:02
receiving other forms of
26:04
I would I would call it like strategic intelligence until I could fully
26:08
put it all together in what became the Unknowns Rising as a manuscript
26:11
and and then feeling like I myself was at a place that I could embody this
26:16
new idea and lead any future partners,
26:19
teams around the concepts behind the book.
26:22
Wow, wow, wow. How did how did this experience change you?
26:27
And I and I'm gonna say I'm I'm imagining there was an evolution from
26:30
the time you had the actual experience through,
26:33
you know, the five years after in development of the
26:36
Yeah.
26:36
book and and that sort of thing.
26:37
So g give me walk me kind of through how you've changed over over these years,
26:43
you know, since your experience.
26:45
One, it it it truly humbled me,
26:47
honestly. It in you know being a firstborn and if you've
26:51
got any entrepreneurial gene, you understand the drive that drives that journey,
26:57
which is
26:57
Mm-hmm.
26:58
sometimes very hyper driven, goal oriented.
27:02
You you drive teams, you drive people.
27:04
I think that's I think that's a gift.
27:07
It can also be a curse. And I that experience for me.
27:10
deeply humbled me in terms of like this this type of thing is bigger than me ~
27:16
Mm-hmm.
27:16
and I cannot do it with other others.
27:18
So I I believe it it helped me v more deeply value relationship in a way that
27:23
I had not. Both human
27:24
Mm.
27:25
relationships, business relationships,
27:27
and then the power of trust in in all of that,
27:30
in communication. So in anything that you build,
27:33
I've realized it'll it's only gonna go as far or last as long.
27:37
As trust, as the trust you've been able to bake into it.
27:40
So either trust with your customer,
27:42
trust with whatever you're able to deliver,
27:44
your brand promise, whatever that is,
27:46
you carry and you embody that.
27:48
And I appreciate that, I guess I would say,
27:50
Rick, more than I have in the past.
27:53
And so I've learned to become
27:56
I hope so. Again, it is it's like meme tooting my own horn.
27:59
I I hope I become a better listen listener,
28:02
both to those that that are closest to me who who
28:05
watch me go through that journey of of becoming and and and waiting at
28:09
the same time i become more deeply confident in my own self so in in
28:15
the journey i describe you know you go from system to system like elementary school
28:20
system middle school system educational system right that that tends to wire
28:26
you in its own form
28:27
Right. So
28:27
Mm-hmm.
28:27
it actually can inhibit you as a business leader,
28:30
as a creative thinker, can get in the way.
28:33
And then you have to almost like do an unlearning process over decades.
28:37
Right.
28:37
Yeah.
28:38
And so it it taught me to do that process more quickly on myself and be
28:42
be my my biggest in most innermost champion understanding who I truly
28:48
was because when the noise got really quiet.
28:52
in in in a place of isolation and meaning making,
28:55
then I could better hear who am I really and what are the fights that
28:59
I'm committed to fight, the non-negotiables,
29:01
One. Mm-hmm.
29:02
if that makes sense. And
29:04
as opposed to having the world define what those should be for me.
29:08
Mm-hmm.
29:08
~
29:08
and maybe somebody else doesn't struggle with that,
29:10
but I think when you're trying to reach a lot of firsts and reach your first million
29:14
or 10 million, whatever your goal is,
29:16
or just your first a hundred customers,
29:18
you can get in the way all the noise inside you.
29:21
And so helping you define and narrow down what truly matter,
29:25
your non non-negotiables, I think can be incredibly important.
29:29
And last of all, it it gave me the appreciation of foresight as my responsibility,
29:35
meaning if I seen the future.
29:36
That nobody else has because it was entrusted
29:38
Mm-hmm.
29:39
to me. Can I steward that vision adequately during the rest of the years that
29:45
I have, you know, left of to to do something functionally and valuable for humanity?
29:51
And and I appreciate that now every day.
29:53
When I open my eyes and I think through,
29:55
I think through that appreciation of having seen that vision of the world that
29:59
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
29:59
is to become and then get
30:01
active and how what is what is it that I can do.
30:04
To help build the systems relationally that will define the future
30:09
of whatever world,
30:09
Mm-hmm.
30:10
whether it's small or big, that I have the pleasure of engaging with,
30:13
how do I help build those systems that are better and have at the center
30:17
the type of human flourishing that I saw in my vision?
30:20
If that makes sense.
30:21
Mm.
30:22
It does, it does. I I I hear the I I I really make the the connection with
30:27
the with the humility that you display.
30:30
You know, it's it's you know you're entrusted,
30:32
you know, with this with this future vision,
30:34
but it's not you're not coming at it from a position of power,
30:38
but from a position of of service,
30:40
of stewardship. which is remarkable.
30:41
I I think that's amazing. one of the things that you talked about.
30:44
was AI and its impact.
30:48
You know, and we're you know, we're we're in the throes of it now.
30:51
It's it's changed the way that we work.
30:52
What is what is your experience or what are what are your thoughts around
30:56
AI at this point?
30:57
I'll just because of the focus on my book,
30:59
Rick, I'm gonna say it this way.
31:01
So there is there's an account in in in biblical history about this individual,
31:07
his name was Moses, that had lived in a place of power and influence in his day.
31:12
right, it was in the greatest palace,
31:14
greatest empire of his time. and and then things changed for him,
31:19
but he has this deep encounter.
31:21
With the greatest intelligence that ever was or will be in God encounters him,
31:26
right? And in in this burning bush experience.
31:29
And in that encounter, he has a commission for him.
31:32
He allows us to see the future,
31:33
he foretells the future to him.
31:35
This is what will happen, and this is my invitation to you.
31:38
are you willing to take it? And and in his Moses trying to make meaning
31:44
of that encounter for him,
31:46
He basically asked the question of the they will not believe me when I go to them,
31:49
when I try to go build this business or do this thing.
31:52
They will not believe that I'm adequate to do this.
31:54
And and there's this moment that I believe is deeply powerful to your question.
31:58
God asked Moses, What is it that you have in your hand?
32:01
And at the time, Moses had a staff.
32:04
He had a staff in his hand that he used in his work,
32:07
that he did. He was a sh
32:09
Sheepherder at the time, right?
32:10
Economically, that's what he did.
32:11
and he and he said, I want you to throw it down.
32:13
And basically, in that moment,
32:15
that staff became a a vehicle of showing the the sovereignty of God
32:21
or that intel superintelligence in that
32:23
Mm-hmm.
32:23
moment, and it created that staff transformed,
32:26
right, into different things. It became a supernatural thing that he took
32:29
Mm-hmm.
32:30
to Pharaoh, the head of that empire at the time.
32:32
And many times you see references,
32:34
the opening of the Red Sea happened with that staff.
32:36
So that
32:36
Mm-hmm.
32:38
tool of that day under the sovereignty of the greatest superintelligence
32:43
in the hands of somebody that had a submitted heart of stewardship,
32:46
meaning it wasn't about Moses,
32:46
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
32:47
it was about the bigger vision that he was fulfilling.
32:50
~
32:51
so I believe, for at least my reference point,
32:53
given the on-rising vision I had.
32:55
that that that the continued development of of artificial intelligence,
32:59
one, is not a surprise to the greatest superintelligence that ever will be in God.
33:04
And two, that he he he is engaging human agents,
33:08
meaning God, just like he did Moses,
33:10
to say,
33:11
Mm-hmm.
33:11
I have a plan
33:13
For humanity, and I believe it's about human flourishing.
33:16
And for those that are willing to lay down their concepts,
33:21
like to submit to that superintelligence,
33:23
n meaning God,
33:25
Mm-hmm.
33:25
that God will use in the same way that He did it for Moses.
33:28
He will take that artificial intelligence as a tool for humanity over
33:31
the next thirty, fifty years, and help them create the greatest type of inventions,
33:37
prototypes, solutions to humanity's pain points that ever will.
33:40
At the same time, it it it
33:42
He I think there's an invitation to how to how to become the human agent that
33:48
Build the guardrails for the future development of that man-made intelligence.
33:52
So, in that, for me, artificial intelligence,
33:55
I believe, is going to support these human agents.
33:59
For me, I have a heart for folks that are unknown,
34:02
that are the underdog, that nobody
34:02
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
34:04
knows right now. And I believe that they are uniquely set up to have these tools
34:08
come in their hands. And as they go on this journey,
34:11
that Artificial intelligence, as it develops alongside these leaders.
34:15
Leaders ~ are
34:16
Mm-hmm.
34:16
gonna unlock economies,
34:19
generational wealth, as well as influence in a way that we haven't seen.
34:25
Like individuals being able to create microeconomies and systems around themselves
34:30
because they are being true to the thing that they're wired to do.
34:34
That's
34:35
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
34:37
what I see.
34:38
Okay, okay, that makes sense. Makes sense.
34:40
Tell tell us about the the the unknown driving.
34:43
Yeah, so the so the book breaks down one,
34:45
my story of becoming. I believe at in this era,
34:49
being able to increase trust in everything you do is gonna be vital,
34:54
right? As you try to solve for this deep fakes,
34:56
being able to tell a portion of story is deeply important.
34:59
So the book tells my journey and story,
35:01
right, of becoming, of the encounter,
35:03
what what led to it.
35:05
meaning I drew behind it, but then it actually captures stories
35:09
of different leaders, influencers,
35:10
and billionaires, how they came to go from point A to the original idea
35:15
to actually creating this dynamic company or venture.
35:18
And so I tell that story and then just unpacks us frameworks and tools to do,
35:24
for example, I call it the internal audit,
35:26
where as a founder you go through that meaning making,
35:29
understanding what
35:30
truly you're wired to do that you're unique can do,
35:34
your life experience helps you,
35:35
gives you credibility and authenticity to say I've done this somewhere else,
35:39
whatever the context, therefore I can take that and build something with
35:43
the support of artificial intelligence to solve
35:46
X problem. So through the chapters,
35:48
I unpack different tools. I give examples of others that have done it.
35:52
And then ultimately I invite people into the community to say,
35:56
be part of this new breed of builders and leaders that are gonna rise from
36:00
all all the kind of the ends of the earth.
36:02
And let's build this community together.
36:04
And so that's what the Unknowns Rising book is.
36:06
And so where where I do that is through unknownsrising.com.
36:10
where people
36:10
Mm-hmm.
36:11
I have the initial assessment that people can come and take for free
36:14
and then assess like, hey, where am I at in that building journey relative
36:18
Mm.
36:18
to, for example, my my journey and say,
36:20
well, if I need help, what can I do next?
36:22
So that's there. They can find other tools of PDFs of guides and frameworks
36:27
in in that, but ultimately they can connect to my story.
36:30
My hope is that people be are encouraged.
36:32
You know, if they've been sitting with this idea of feeling unknown,
36:36
unappreciated, or in essence, they don't have deep clarity who they
36:40
are because they've di been defined by a system,
36:42
like a department, an a a company,
36:44
and now all of a sudden they're laid off and they and they're struggling
36:48
in that moment. My hope is that the book is an encouragement to them,
36:51
Rick.
36:51
to say maybe this is an opportunity for you to build something that maybe
36:55
you you never give yourself the opportunity to do so.
36:58
And this is now take the first step.
37:01
Yeah, yeah, that's that's really powerful.
37:03
I think that's important. You know,
37:04
you know, it's it's like there's been so many shifts in careers.
37:07
You know, we've got another podcast called Bridging the Gap,
37:09
and we we talk to people that are in transition,
37:12
you know, and we hear the hear these conversations over and over again.
37:15
And, you know, the the opportunities to to really figure out what's within
37:20
in you and being able to bring that to market.
37:23
I I think that's so I think that's so powerful.
37:25
I think that
37:26
You know, this is one of those things that God gives us that we get to,
37:29
you know, birth at some point in our lives.
37:30
So I I
37:31
Absolutely.
37:32
I applaud you for the work that you're doing.
37:33
Do you have a vision for like how big this would get or how many people you'll
37:38
you'll impact?
37:39
My hope is that a million in my lifetime of what I have left.
37:43
And and the r the way to do that is through the the company Cosmos Renewed
37:47
as an advisory. But two, I I believe I've my family's journey was deeply impacted
37:53
by the quality of education that we received.
37:56
that we we were fortunate it it it enabled us to leapfrog kind of
38:01
the my parents' journey what they had achieved.
38:04
And so I believe in that. been part of my journey has been focused
38:08
on systems and education, quality of education.
38:10
So I believe part of the Unknown's rising vision is to create micro communities
38:15
of learning for young people going forward that help help them define kind
38:19
of the tools of how do their heroes' journey,
38:22
how do they develop their purpose with clarity?
38:25
How do they actually build things that lead to value to their community in some way,
38:30
meaning artificial intelligence agents and those tools and and and do that
38:34
now and understand how to work with those tools.
38:37
I had the pleasure to support my daughter in in a presidential
38:41
AI competition and her purpose,
38:44
part of it, she loves people.
38:45
So she she
38:45
Mm-hmm.
38:46
focused it on foster care, kids aging out of foster care,
38:49
and how do you you know, the importance of home.
38:51
Like she she appreciates her room and making it her own and in turn towards mental
38:56
health and just kind of caring of self.
38:58
so she developed this kind of it wasn't an agent,
39:02
but it was an AI supported tool that could help
39:06
Do an interview of an aging out young person from foster care to see this
39:10
is what I want. And almost take that to create a plan of what your mock-up
39:14
of your own room. It was like a room concierge.
39:17
How do you create a room and then going into the community to have people actually
39:21
connect to that need and fulfill it?
39:23
And so she was the Wisconsin state champion of that competition.
39:26
she didn't get to go to the White House but to do that,
39:29
but it inspired her to say, I can build something meaning and use these tools.
39:33
to create value. So she she is incredible young person and learned a lot from it.
39:39
But that is the vision to help identify future leaders like her
39:43
and others like Sebastian who's a junior in Illinois.
39:46
He's currently building a 2D platformer game.
39:49
that's focused on his personal experience.
39:51
So his purpose is to reduce human suffering and teenagers that suffer from bullying,
39:56
mental health, and that type of experience.
39:58
And he's doing that through a game,
39:59
an online game that he wants. He's currently building with me.
40:02
I'm coaching him, coming alongside his family,
40:04
his his mom. And he's gonna he wants to be a 15-17 fellow in the future,
40:09
going to San Francisco to the camp.
40:11
So I that is the future vision,
40:12
helping find these future builders,
40:14
leaders, scientists.
40:16
supporting them, at least for my journey,
40:18
sharing my encounter with God and how that changed me as a builder
40:21
and helping them find their own journey of being,
40:24
that is the vision
40:24
Mm-hmm.
40:25
rake that we're actively pursuing right now.
40:29
How exciting, how exciting. You you mentioned a 1517 fellow.
40:33
I don't know that our audience knows what that is.
40:36
Yeah, so the it it came out of the Peter Thiel fellowship,
40:39
the Thiel Fellowship, and and
40:41
Mm-hmm.
40:41
some people of his team created this 1517 Fund.
40:44
And one of the things that they do is it's it's the same concept,
40:47
trying to find early future disruptors,
40:50
right, of industry and and try and help help them connect with them,
40:55
their vision, and then being the first check that funds their future.
41:00
Vision prototype company. And so they have this middle school,
41:03
high school camp for future founders.
41:06
And part of my mission was connecting,
41:08
you know, because of their network to millionaires and investors.
41:12
these future founders are gonna need capital,
41:14
right? So it's helping build, build their potential to know how do you
41:19
How do you pitch? How do you know who you are as a builder?
41:21
You're non-negotiables. And then so Sebastian's gonna is enrolled in this camp now.
41:26
And it's part of just understanding who he is as a builder and being around people
41:30
that can actually fundamentally change the future of his vision,
41:33
but by being able to fund that initial check that builds his prototype
41:36
and helps him find the initial base of his whatever future customer will be.
41:41
Amazing, amazing, amazing. That's that sound that sounds like a wonderful program.
41:45
the name of the show, as you know,
41:47
is called the Relentless Pursuit of Winning Podcast.
41:49
And so we generally as humans can figure out what winning looks like.
41:54
And this can be something
41:54
Mm.
41:54
small, it can be something huge.
41:56
The challenge that we have sometimes is maintaining that relentless pursuit.
42:00
And I'd love it if you could offer our audience some advice on how
42:05
to maintain that relentless pursuit.
42:07
What I know now I would say three points.
42:09
So one built for people.
42:11
Measure what matters and then refuse to scale harm.
42:15
used to scale okay you want to expand expand
42:16
Harm. Yeah. So when you think about
42:20
up a little bit
42:20
When you
42:21
think about the algorithms of s of of of social media,
42:24
right, the fundamentals
42:24
Mm-hmm.
42:25
and incentives behind current social media models of driving attention
42:29
at the risk when having worked with the number of young people I work with
42:33
in the in the levels of mental health crisis and body image from like
42:37
the Instagram algorithm, for example,
42:39
and and the impacts of actually not building the guardrails around that technology
42:44
and releasing it across a population of adolescents without
42:49
knowing you're you're scaling harm.
42:51
~ and
42:51
Yeah.
42:52
and so I would say for that for that reason,
42:54
I say that The future of human flourishing requires you to truly understand human
42:58
pain, is my perspective, right?
42:59
That's my opinion, that's how I see the world.
43:01
so build for people truly. w what what will lead to their ongoing like benefit
43:07
as human beings, peace of mind,
43:09
quality of life, and then
43:11
you you do measure what matters.
43:13
And in this case, I don't think that they're measuring the appropriate thing
43:16
in in that in that thing, like number of users,
43:18
number of eyes, and number of like retention of attention,
43:21
~ where
43:21
Mm-hmm.
43:22
that's actually can be deeply problematic for the future of like critical thinking
43:28
and and and focus of young people.
43:30
So hope hope that's that that would be my counsel to folks that
43:35
are building technologies, sort of products,
43:37
services, is to use that threefold lens
43:40
To take a step back and consider.
43:43
And if they're if their if their solution to the world were scaled,
43:48
you know, threefold, tenfold, at the end of the day,
43:51
are they creating more harm than good?
43:53
And if it's good, I'd say, man,
43:55
go all in. Go all in. And if not,
43:57
I would say pause and reconsider what the metrics you're using to frame your success
44:01
or the success of your whatever the essence of what you're building is.
44:05
Very good thought, very good thought.
44:06
I love that. it makes me think about,
44:08
you know, as we as we progress,
44:10
as we're building, you know, just using that as,
44:13
you know, kind of the the grounding principles.
44:15
And then each at each level that we build out,
44:17
we step back, you know, as you said,
44:19
take that step back and say, Okay,
44:20
are we are we doing this the right way?
44:22
You know, because things change,
44:23
people change, you know, the the you know,
44:25
the scope changes, but as long as we go back and we measure,
44:29
you know, people measurement and
44:31
you know, scaling without harm,
44:32
that's that's that's really powerful.
44:34
So thank you for that. Thank you for that.
44:36
Absolutely.
44:37
If people want to get a hold of your books,
44:39
what's the best way to do that?
44:41
They can go to unknownsrising.com.
44:44
They can find the link there to get the book on Amazon or other distributors.
44:47
And if they wanted to stay in touch with me,
44:50
they can sign up for our newsletter there and stay,
44:52
stay focused on kind of what the journey is up to date.
44:55
But I love to connect with people in your audience,
44:57
Rick, and just hear how we can be helpful or how we can get involved
45:01
in what they're doing as well.
45:02
So thank you for this time.
45:04
absolutely. Are you on LinkedIn as well?
45:06
LinkedIn, yep, LinkedIn and Instagram are my two most active channels
45:09
so they can find me on there as well.
45:11
Fantastic, fantastic. I really enjoyed our conversation.
45:15
I really appreciate you being here.
45:16
Thank you so much. You
45:17
Thank you, Rick.
45:19
And
45:19
folks, thank you so much for watching or listening to another episode
45:22
of the Relentless Pursuit of Winning podcast.
45:24
We'll catch you next time.