Latest / The FEEL Podcast: Women’s Empowerment, Emotional Wellness and Self-Leadership with Melissa Crook / Embracing Purpose, Passion & Resilience: Grishma Shah on Values-Driven Storytelling

Transcript

Embracing Purpose, Passion & Resilience: Grishma Shah on Values-Driven Storytelling · The FEEL Podcast: Women’s Empowerment, Emotional Wellness and Self-Leadership with Melissa Crook

• 0:01
  Hello, Melissa Crook here with The Field Podcast.
• 0:04
  Welcome to today's new episode, Embracing Purpose, Passion and
• 0:08
  resilience. Grisma Shaw on values driven
• 0:11
  storytelling. Here are some ways to engage
• 0:15
  with this episode. Next time you're making a
• 0:17
  difficult decision or find yourself between two choices,
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  think of your why. Connect your decisions back to
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  your why and your values, remembering who you want to be
• 0:31
  and what is most important to you.
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  We hope this really helps and supports you as you think about
• 0:37
  these ways to engage while listening.
• 0:39
  Today's episode with our friend Grishma Shah.
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  Thanks so much for being with us.
• 1:00
  Hello and welcome back to The Field Podcast Today.
• 1:03
  I'm so happy to be here with you.
• 1:05
  I'm your host, Melissa Crook, and I've got a friend here with
• 1:08
  me today that if you've been watching our panels on YouTube
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  and also on our radio show last year, you have met this friend
• 1:16
  already of Grishma Shah here with me today.
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  But we are going to be getting into more of Grishma own story
• 1:23
  today via our talking points. You've heard about us talk about
• 1:27
  her work in the higher Ed sector as well as her book, which we
• 1:32
  will still talk about that. And those resources are going to
• 1:34
  be available on our website at embracinglayers.com.
• 1:39
  But we're going to get to know Grishma the woman today, Grishma
• 1:42
  the person, and how she got to this space that she's in today
• 1:46
  and providing these tremendous resources both as an educator
• 1:50
  and as well as with her book. So Grishma, welcome to the Field
• 1:55
  podcast. I'm so happy to have you here.
• 1:57
  Thank you so much, Melissa. Great to be there.
• 2:00
  OK. And you described yourself as
• 2:03
  gritty, resilient with compassion, independent and
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  loyal. And I I told you before we
• 2:10
  started recording, I love the gritty piece.
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  I'd love. I think that's such AI think
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  more of us have that than we realize.
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  So I'd love that you acknowledge that and and see that in your
• 2:19
  journey. And that's going to be very
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  evident as people learn your story, I think as well.
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  But we're going to get right into it and start with talk to
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  me about yourself care journey. Tell talk to me about how that
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  fits in your life now and your learning and understanding what
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  that means and the importance of it.
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  Sure, I I I think like many women I didn't even know what
• 2:43
  self-care was until a few years ago.
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  Maybe like, well, after my kids were in their leg or just like
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  7-8 or 9 or 10 years old and people began to say like, oh,
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  like, as a mom, you should take care of yourself.
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  And I, I just, I honestly wasn't even the word wasn't even in my
• 3:03
  vocabulary. Yeah, until a few years ago.
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  And now I hear it all the time. But I'm also much more attuned
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  to practicing it. So I think I've always been a
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  chaser in the sense that I'm always chasing my next goal.
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  And so when you're constantly chasing your next goal, you
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  don't take a ton of time for self-care because you feel like
• 3:29
  you're on this path where you have to hit the next check box.
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  And you, and it took me, I think, because I have so much
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  schooling behind me, like undergrad, master's, PhD, then
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  after you get your PhD, like the next check boxes, you have to
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  get academic job and get tenured.
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  And once you get tenured, they're like, OK, well, you've
• 3:47
  published more papers so you can get promoted to full professor.
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  And there was always this, this chase, like, OK, I have to do
• 3:54
  the next thing. I have to do the next thing.
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  And I never really knew how to slow down.
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  I, I, I just did not know that you could sit and do nothing.
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  Like that was such a novel idea to me until about like 7 or 8
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  years ago. And now, by the way, I'm very,
• 4:11
  very comfortable sitting down and doing nothing.
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  And when I meet people who are unable to do that, I'm like,
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  well, it takes practice because I don't know if it's cultural in
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  the culture I was brought up in or if it's just like how I was
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  raised or it just in me like internal in the sense that
• 4:28
  chasing fit. But I tell a lot of women
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  particularly, and I'm like, it's OK to just sit and do nothing.
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  And they're like, well, I don't time to do nothing.
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  I'm like, you'll be surprised you will find time to do
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  nothing. And originally I had a really
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  hard time doing it where I would sit and I would like watch or
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  binge watch something then I would feel so guilty about it.
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  Like I'm like, Oh my God, I just binge watch this whole show for
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  like 3 hours and that would beat myself up about it.
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  And I was like, oh that. And then I realized you know
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  what, that was part of self-care.
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  And sometimes I still beat myself up about it because I'm
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  like, oh you're supposed to get like 10 things done and you all
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  you did was binge this show. But now I'm much more
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  comfortable at it. So comfortable that my family
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  sometimes like you're just sitting around doing that.
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  I guess because I finally have time.
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  I said I finally have time to sit and do nothing, so leave me
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  alone, everyone. So I think if we're talking
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  about the journey, for a long time I had no idea what it was,
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  what it meant. I think when originally I
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  learned about it, it was very superficial to me in the sense
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  like, it meant like, oh, going to get a massage, we're going to
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  get my nails done. I tried all those things, but
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  those weren't really bringing that.
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  Like, it was very like a Band-Aid approach, right?
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  Like, don't get me wrong, I love my massages and I love once in a
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  while getting my nails done and getting pampered.
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  But so much of that is external still.
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  Yeah. And sitting and allowing myself
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  to just be. To me, that's the best
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  self-care. Yeah.
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  And not beating myself up about like I can sit and, and, and
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  just be and I don't have to chase anything.
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  I don't have to be like writing or reading.
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  I could just binge watch or I could just sit in my thoughts
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  and, and enjoy the sun in the backyard or whatever.
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  And so it took a long time. I wouldn't say I'm 100%
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  comfortable with it, but I'm pretty comfortable with it.
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  Yeah, thank you for explaining that.
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  You did such a good job with that.
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  And there's a couple things that really stuck out to me.
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  One, that Chaser piece, I've never heard it described that
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  way. And as soon as you set that,
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  alarm bells went off in my head. I'm like, yes, that's what we do
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  as women. We because I think that we're
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  always trying to make sure we're not falling behind because
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  there's already this expectation that we have to do a little bit
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  more. We haven't gotten past that
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  narrative yet. And I do think that cultural
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  narratives and spaces build on that.
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  I mean, your family worked very hard to bring you here and make
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  this that what you've turned, what your life has turned into
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  possible. And so you saw that grind and
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  that and, and the things that you had to do even more of being
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  an immigrant family, you know, and all the the narratives that
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  come with that. And also even just within your
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  culture. I think even with if you weren't
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  within, you know, if you had grown up your whole life in
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  India, I think that's still just something that's that's
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  prevalent and for women everywhere and also within
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  cultural narrative. So I think when you're getting
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  it from all these different angles and sides you work in
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  higher at academia, that is still a spot for women where
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  they feel like they got to put in a little more and chase a
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  little harder. And so there's so many things
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  for that chaser piece and that willingness.
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  There's so much value. And just sitting, I understand
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  the discomfort with that. I used to be like for three
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  minutes after I can, I'm like, I can sit for three minutes.
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  And then I would just get fidgety.
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  Like I couldn't get past the guilt of being productive or
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  continue and and not recognizing if I take this time to just sit,
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  my brain can refresh things can settle things.
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  I can, I can Createspace and I, I started doing a thing and I
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  don't do it daily, but I I do it pretty often.
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  But for a while I was doing it daily to make it a habit and to
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  move past the guilt piece where I set my timer for 10 minutes
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  and I picked a quiet spot somewhere.
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  You know, whether it was outside if the weather was nice or in my
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  house or or in my car, if I was waiting for someone, were 10
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  minutes of just quiet. No music, no podcast, no
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  nothing. Just no, no phone conversation
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  as I was on a walk. Just quiet.
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  And sometimes I would like not fall asleep and get into this
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  really deep meditative seat and, and my system settled like the,
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  the calm, like everything just settled in my body.
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  And I was like, wow, that was 10 minutes.
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  There was so much power in that. I feel so rejuvenated.
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  So I'm so glad you brought that up that that simplicity of it
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  doesn't have to be. I mean, if if the nails and
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  massage make you feel refreshed and great, great, do them.
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  But really think about what is going to help you be mindful,
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  present. What is your nervous system need
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  to settle so you can be refreshed and have those
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  creative ideas, have that energy to show up the way you want to?
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  But you said something too that I think it's so much part of
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  what the narrative that we're still trying to destigmatize is
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  when your family will comment about you just sitting there
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  there. We're not used to seeing women,
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  moms, professionals just in general.
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  We're not used to seeing them sit in contentment quietly doing
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  nothing like we we're not used to that.
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  And so when we do someone see someone doing that, we the first
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  response is what are you doing? Like nothing.
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  That's the point. It's a good thing.
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  And you're all going to be happier later because I'm not
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  going to be nearly as crabby or irritable because I've taken
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  this time to feel my cup and that binge watching thing.
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  Like there was something last night, my husband had something
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  that he was doing after work and he's like, hey, you want to
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  come? And 510 years ago I would have,
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  even though I didn't really want to, I would have gone because he
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  invited me and it's a nice thing to do and blah, blah.
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  And I was just like, no, no, I don't really want to come.
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  Have a great time. Glad you're going.
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  Enjoy it. I'm going to stay home.
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  There's a show on Netflix I've been wanting to watch.
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  I don't think he's really going to love.
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  So it was my time after my work day to sit there and enjoy that
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  movie. I cried.
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  I enjoyed it. I was 15 minutes after I
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  finished it, he walked in the door.
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  We sat down, had our It was just one of those things that I
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  wouldn't have done a few years back.
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  I would have gone and done the other thing to be, you know,
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  and, and, and I do plenty of those things.
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  But I think it's just that giving ourselves permission and
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  and recognizing that those little moments in time and
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  sometimes those little longer hours, they matter and they help
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  us show up better because we've taken that time for ourself.
• 11:38
  Yeah, Yeah. You know, it reminded me of
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  something even when I would. So now that my, my children are
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  in their teens and now, so they're a bit older, a little
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  less demanding physically, sure. But I remember when they were
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  younger, I used to come home and just sit in the car for 5
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  minutes because I like, it's like you did a full day of work
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  and then you come home and park the car in the garage.
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  And I would turn it off and I would just sit in the car for
• 12:05
  like 3 or 4 minutes or 5 minutes.
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  Just like build up the energy to start my second job basically
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  with a harder. Job.
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  And, and I, I still sometimes I'll just park my car and I was
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  just like, you know what, turn the car off.
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  I'm just going to sit here for a couple of minutes.
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  Take a deep breath because I just, you know what's coming.
• 12:25
  You're going to walk in the door and everything's coming at you
• 12:27
  from all different directions and everything has to get done.
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  And so I kind of, I'm like, OK, I know it's just two minutes or
• 12:33
  three minutes, but I'm just going to sit in the car till I
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  have to go face everyone. It's not everyone knows this and
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  especially parents. It's not because you don't love
• 12:41
  your kids, but you just need to sit in the car.
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  Yes, no, I'm so glad you said that.
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  I give that as advice to women when I'm talking and when they
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  say they don't have time or they're going from think thing.
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  I'm like, give yourself 15 minutes when you get home, sit
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  in the car in the quiet, listen to your favorite music, whatever
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  it is. Walk around the block before,
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  excuse me, you walk into that next phase of the day, which you
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  very correctly pointed out is can be the hardest part because
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  you've got to be emotionally, mentally, physically present
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  with all the needs that are coming your way that need to be
• 13:15
  met. But if you can go that feeling
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  like I've had time to separate myself from my work day, digest
• 13:22
  all of that, take a moment, take a breath, refill, refocus, and
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  now I can walk in the door refreshed and not feeling
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  haggard and and out of, you know, sorts.
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  So I think that's such an important tip and and it's I
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  think that you can't underestimate the value of a few
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  minutes. Yeah.
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  Yeah, yeah. Thank you for sharing that.
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  So good. All right.
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  And this goes really nicely into confidently setting boundaries.
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  You know, for you, this is something you've learned to do
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  you like. You've put these these these
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  healthy boundaries around your time.
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  This time's for me to sit quietly.
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  This time's for me to take 5 minutes in the car before I come
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  in and engage with everybody else.
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  I mean, this time is for me to watch the show I've been waiting
• 14:06
  to drop or that just brings me peace.
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  I've got a show on Netflix that I've watched 5000 times.
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  But if I'm stressed out or if I just need something I want to
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  watch something where I know what's going to happen, I'm not
• 14:19
  going to be surprised. It's going to have an outcome
• 14:22
  that I can live with and enjoy. I'll turn that on and it helps
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  settle me. My, my family gives me a
• 14:28
  terrible, bad time about it, but it's something that really
• 14:31
  helps, helps me. And I can recite, you know, I
• 14:35
  know when scenes are coming. I can say all the lines.
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  My husband can too by default. But it's, you know, it's those
• 14:40
  that you never know or that book that you've been dying to dive
• 14:43
  into that you just, you know, it's like, I'm going to go in
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  the bedroom and take, you know, half an hour before bed to read
• 14:51
  this book that I've been waiting to to get into.
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  I mean, I think, you know, so talk to me about because you
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  talked about how you were chasing and when you're chasing,
• 15:00
  there aren't, there aren't a lot of boundaries because you're
• 15:03
  chasing those things, but you're also allowing all the
• 15:06
  opportunities in because you don't want to miss anything.
• 15:08
  So talk to me about that in your journey.
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  I think in some ways, and I think this is a result of just
• 15:15
  being in academia and how our structures are.
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  I think you are in a position where you have to chase when you
• 15:24
  haven't reached a certain level in your career.
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  Because if you're not chasing, then there's just a lot of
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  competition. And it's one of the very few
• 15:34
  careers. And a lot of like when I explain
• 15:36
  this to my friends, they don't they fully understand it till
• 15:39
  they saw me go through it or even my parents or my family.
• 15:42
  So what people don't understand about academia usually is you
• 15:47
  normally get a PhD which is required to get a full time
• 15:50
  position. And after you get a PhD, you
• 15:53
  normally get what they call a 10 year track position.
• 15:57
  And either after like a five year probation period, either
• 16:02
  you get tenured or you don't. Yeah, right.
• 16:05
  And a lot of times if you don't get tenured, it's almost like a
• 16:09
  career breaker. It's really hard to get hired
• 16:13
  somewhere else. Most people at that point will
• 16:15
  shift gears and find another career.
• 16:17
  It's not the end of the world. But if, if that's where your
• 16:20
  heart is, like you want to be an educator and do research, then
• 16:25
  it's a really big deal. So in some ways I I didn't have
• 16:29
  it like I felt at least maybe I did if you looked at it from the
• 16:32
  outside, I felt like I didn't have an option to set bounces,
• 16:36
  especially at work. Anything that came up, I was a
• 16:41
  yes Sayer on my guess. I have to be there.
• 16:42
  Yes, I'll be there. Yes, I'll be there, right.
• 16:45
  And it's when I, after I got tenure, I started saying no to a
• 16:51
  few things and I realized that people sometimes didn't
• 16:56
  necessarily even notice that I said no.
• 16:59
  Like no one was, no one was, no one was keeping track.
• 17:03
  No one was like, oh, check box, Grishma showed up here.
• 17:06
  Check box. And some of these, I'm talking
• 17:09
  some, some events that are very optional in the workplace.
• 17:12
  Like, sure, we will do like a parent's Orient, a parent's
• 17:16
  weekend. You know, when you're on a
• 17:17
  college campus, you go and your parent and you know, you won't
• 17:20
  see a ton of professors. It's usually run by student life
• 17:22
  and it's like a lot of fun things parents do with their,
• 17:25
  their college student. I would feel like the need, like
• 17:28
  if they asked like, oh, do you want to show up on the weekend
• 17:30
  to like engage with a few parents and the, and the
• 17:33
  students over the weekend? So they knew what their academic
• 17:35
  life is like. I'm like, yeah, I'll be there.
• 17:38
  You know, because I felt like I, I needed to say yes.
• 17:41
  And then I realized I didn't like they would have figured it
• 17:45
  out. And it's not like they like
• 17:48
  we're like, Oh yeah, yeah. She was there every single time.
• 17:51
  I mean, maybe some people noticed, but I think we
• 17:56
  sometimes in our heads build up like we're not allowed to send
• 18:00
  bound, set boundaries. Everyone will notice we're not
• 18:02
  there. And maybe that's a little self
• 18:06
  selfish. Like really, you know, I'm so
• 18:07
  important. Like everyone's going to miss
• 18:08
  me. And sometimes I'm like, I'll say
• 18:10
  no. And maybe sometimes someone will
• 18:14
  ping me and say Hey, like, where are you?
• 18:16
  We miss you. But most of the time people are
• 18:17
  like, oh, whatever, life goes on, you know what I mean?
• 18:21
  Like you'll come to the next one or we'll, you know, whatever.
• 18:24
  And I, I think it's important to recognize that yes, you should
• 18:30
  show up at work when you're needed and you're at, that's
• 18:33
  essential to your job. But sometimes it's just OK to
• 18:38
  say I can't do every single event and I can't do every
• 18:42
  single thing. And so I've learned in some ways
• 18:47
  I felt like it couldn't before I got 10 years.
• 18:49
  Sure. And now that I am, I feel a
• 18:52
  little bit more comfortable saying no to things.
• 18:55
  Yeah. And it turns out that I'm
• 18:58
  actually saying all yes to all the things where I'm adding most
• 19:01
  value. Yeah, right.
• 19:03
  Because before I was saying yes to everything and I wasn't
• 19:05
  really valued or adding the value that I could like, OK, I
• 19:11
  talked to students and parents at Parents Day weekend.
• 19:13
  I went, I went bowling with some.
• 19:15
  But like they would have had fun bowling whether I was there or
• 19:18
  not. Yeah, yeah.
• 19:19
  You know, yeah, it wasn't like, oh, you I had so much value
• 19:23
  because I'm a terrible bowler. And they're like, oh, you know,
• 19:27
  it's. And then there are things where
• 19:29
  I'm like, oh, it's really important that I show up at a
• 19:33
  work event where the students are coming and sitting in a
• 19:36
  classroom and they want to see what the classroom setting would
• 19:39
  look like, what the professors are like.
• 19:41
  That's where I'm adding value. Yeah.
• 19:43
  Right. So I am, I'm way more selective
• 19:47
  now. Sure.
• 19:48
  But I'm also selective in this in the sense that I'm like,
• 19:50
  where? Where will I add value?
• 19:52
  Yeah. And how will it add value to me?
• 19:54
  And that takes some time to decipher.
• 19:57
  And sometimes they still make the wrong call.
• 19:59
  Not the wrong call, but like, I'll do something.
• 20:02
  I'm like, OK, that. Was that really worth all the
• 20:04
  trouble and stress I went through?
• 20:05
  Yeah. And, you know, I don't beat
• 20:08
  myself up about it. But next time I'm like, yeah,
• 20:10
  let me rethink that. Let me let me think twice before
• 20:12
  I say yes to that. Yeah.
• 20:15
  And so I think this goes along with a lot of people just
• 20:17
  learning to say no. Setting boundaries is learning
• 20:20
  to say no. And so I think professionally,
• 20:23
  sometimes we are. Let's face it, there's a double
• 20:27
  standard at work. So women have to give more
• 20:28
  sometimes. So then that boundary setting, I
• 20:31
  always felt like, OK, not only do I feel like I have to be
• 20:34
  everywhere, but maybe I have to show up more because I am a
• 20:39
  woman and whatever else. So professionally, it's been a
• 20:44
  learning curve. I think with my family they're,
• 20:50
  I think all mothers hate to hear this.
• 20:53
  I'm usually the one who's overdoing things and when I
• 20:56
  don't do it, they don't even notice.
• 20:58
  Yes, Oh my gosh, yes, that is so true.
• 21:01
  And then we're frustrated or irritated that they didn't even
• 21:06
  know. Like Oh my gosh, I've been
• 21:08
  wearing myself out and they didn't even know what I noticed.
• 21:13
  That I folded the laundry. They're like, no, like if it
• 21:15
  sits in the basket, we'll just pick our clothes out of the
• 21:17
  basket the week. I mean, I'm like, judge me all
• 21:20
  you want. I'm like, oh, I was like, I'm
• 21:22
  like, oh, like we got to get the laundry and put away and like,
• 21:25
  there have been time weeks, I'll tell you, be honest with you,
• 21:28
  where I just don't have the bandwidth.
• 21:30
  And I would just put the clean clothes in a basket in the room
• 21:34
  and they're like, yeah, we found our clothes.
• 21:35
  Don't worry about it. Yeah.
• 21:38
  OK, well, maybe it's just me then.
• 21:41
  I started doing that. I that's so funny you mentioned
• 21:44
  that I started doing that and I think mine were probably junior
• 21:46
  high in high school where I just started.
• 21:49
  They, they got a bin of clothes like for my, my two daughters
• 21:53
  that slept downstairs. We had, I just put it at the top
• 21:57
  of the stairs. I'm like, there's your clothes,
• 21:58
  take them down. There's your bin of clothes take
• 22:01
  up. And they're like, great.
• 22:02
  And now my, my youngest is a, she likes her spaces organized.
• 22:06
  So she would take her clothes and fold them and put them away.
• 22:09
  Yeah. And it's all about personality.
• 22:11
  Yeah, and that allowed her the space to do that, and she was
• 22:15
  welcome to do that. But I love that you brought that
• 22:18
  up. That's such an important point.
• 22:20
  And I think too, going back to what you've learned now, like so
• 22:26
  if there's other professors that are coming up to the tenure
• 22:28
  track, you're able to offer some wisdom.
• 22:31
  Like, listen, I've realized along the way that that family
• 22:36
  weekend, not necessary that lecture series probably a good
• 22:40
  idea, you know, I mean, or but but I think that what you said
• 22:45
  about where am I going to add value that it's also going to
• 22:48
  add value to me. That's a really good question to
• 22:51
  ask yourself as you're looking at what you're saying yes and no
• 22:55
  to. Yeah, yeah, I agree.
• 22:58
  And, and like, like I said, I think the the motherhood thing,
• 23:01
  I think all of us sometimes are baffled that we don't get to
• 23:06
  something and no one noticed. And I'm like, but I ran to the
• 23:10
  mall and picked this thing up for you because I thought it was
• 23:14
  really important to you. They're like, no, I just want
• 23:15
  to. I would have figured it out.
• 23:17
  I'm like, oh, maybe it's maybe I just need to chill sometimes.
• 23:21
  Maybe I need to set my own boundaries.
• 23:23
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 23:24
  And I mean, I think of those preconceived notions and
• 23:26
  narratives that are in our heads and deciphering what's actually
• 23:29
  true here versus something that I've just put up on myself or
• 23:33
  that I've seen happening around me.
• 23:35
  And I assume that it must be the thing I need to do instead of
• 23:39
  just asking that your kid or your partner.
• 23:42
  How important is this? Because I need to determine if
• 23:44
  I'm going to take another my lunch break today to go deal
• 23:48
  with this versus not. And I but I mean that's
• 23:53
  something I wish I would have done more rather than.
• 23:56
  Actually, that's such a great. It's such a simple and
• 23:58
  interesting thing you brought up.
• 23:59
  Most just ask, just ask, you know, whether it's it's your mom
• 24:04
  or dad, like how important. Like for example, my mom said,
• 24:07
  will you take me to get my nails done?
• 24:10
  And I've been trying to racking my brain and in my head, I'm
• 24:13
  like, of course, because like that you asked mom and I have to
• 24:16
  do this now that, but maybe I'm, I'm, I'm putting so much
• 24:19
  emphasis on it. And she'll be like, oh, we'll go
• 24:21
  next week. If you're busy this week.
• 24:22
  I just need to ask how important is it that you get this done
• 24:26
  today, right? Because you called me this
• 24:28
  morning and I'm like now trying to screen listen.
• 24:31
  Right. Yeah.
• 24:33
  But it's, it's a great, it's such a simple thing to just be
• 24:35
  able to ask if he does it have to get done today, like do we do
• 24:38
  it next week or whatever? And so I agree.
• 24:41
  And I also agree with the the career mentoring.
• 24:44
  I think yes, I've learned and I share this with everyone and
• 24:50
  luckily also am in a department that is just, it's a very
• 24:55
  nurturing department. I'm in a great work culture,
• 24:59
  generally speaking. Like I know a lot of women are
• 25:02
  not happy with the work culture they're in and deal with a lot
• 25:05
  of things. But luckily we have this
• 25:08
  beautiful nurturing department. Part of it is probably because
• 25:12
  we are relatively all in the same similar phases of life.
• 25:17
  Right, I have been through. That phase of life.
• 25:19
  So we're very mindful, like of like, oh, you have preschoolers,
• 25:24
  you know, why don't you take a schedule that allows you to get
• 25:27
  them off to school and then get you home in time to be there for
• 25:32
  them? Because we do have so much
• 25:35
  flexibility in how we plug and play during what courses we
• 25:38
  offer and what time we offer them and who teaches them.
• 25:41
  And so I'm really grateful for a department that says like, you
• 25:46
  know, now that mine are older, I'm like, Oh yeah, I don't need
• 25:49
  to be home by three. So I'll, I'll teach the
• 25:51
  afternoon class. You take the one that gets you
• 25:54
  home before the kids get off the bus.
• 25:57
  And I think if if more environments for that flexible
• 26:00
  more. Parents.
• 26:04
  Everyone will have more positive experience, as you know.
• 26:06
  Right. Yeah.
• 26:07
  And then you because when you have that kind of experience,
• 26:10
  I'm so glad you brought that up. And it's so important.
• 26:12
  And I think women feel it even more than men because of just
• 26:16
  the narrative of workspaces for women is something we're still
• 26:20
  dealing with. But when some when someone is
• 26:23
  willing to work with you and you have that level of understanding
• 26:25
  and that trust, you're willing to go the extra mile when when
• 26:29
  it allows, because you have receive that support yourself.
• 26:33
  Or I mean, it feels like something you get to give back.
• 26:37
  It feels like an opportunity you want to be a part of rather
• 26:40
  than, you know, here I am giving them my afternoon again.
• 26:44
  And because no one ever asked me, they just plugged it in.
• 26:47
  I mean, I think that is such a if workplace is thought about
• 26:51
  them. Listen, if you show up showing
• 26:54
  that you care about the whole person and their life outside of
• 26:57
  just this space, they're gonna, they're gonna run through a
• 27:01
  brick wall for you. I mean and and not feel bad
• 27:05
  doing it because they feel supported, seen and known in
• 27:09
  their whole life, not just what they have to offer you here.
• 27:12
  Yeah, absolutely. I agree.
• 27:14
  I agree 100%. And that's what.
• 27:16
  You're doing reciprocal, Yes, yes, absolutely.
• 27:19
  Thank you for sharing that. That's so good.
• 27:21
  All right, taking care of our emotional health, mental health,
• 27:25
  physical health. Talk to you about your journey
• 27:27
  with that. And I think this is just an
• 27:32
  observation, but I think even the work that you've done with
• 27:35
  your book and how you, even though it's fiction, tell the
• 27:40
  story of your family that that, that there was this mental,
• 27:45
  emotional, physical health piece that even played into that as
• 27:49
  this opportunity to show gratitude and appreciation to
• 27:53
  your parents through this medium.
• 27:56
  So, but but so that's, that's something that the thought that
• 27:59
  I've had. But talk to me in general too,
• 28:01
  about this journey of recognizing the connection in
• 28:05
  these different health spheres that we live with.
• 28:09
  Yeah, let's start with physical. So I will tell you this.
• 28:14
  We immigrated to this country. My family came to this country
• 28:17
  when I was 7 and I was put into a school system where I didn't
• 28:24
  know like anything particularly I wasn't raised to be very like
• 28:30
  we, you know what they call it survival mode.
• 28:33
  We weren't on survival mode. So I wasn't, we didn't have like
• 28:36
  all of these resources to put me in sports, for instance, or like
• 28:40
  whatever. And I was never physically
• 28:43
  active as a child. I wasn't like a big child or
• 28:47
  anything like that, but I wasn't strong and I wasn't physically
• 28:49
  active. And mainly because it was not
• 28:52
  something that was ever emphasized in my family.
• 28:54
  And The thing is, I think Indian American culture is very
• 28:57
  different than culture in India. Like normally speaking, like
• 29:01
  sports and athletics are not heavily emphasized when the
• 29:05
  academics are. So, you know, like I joke all
• 29:09
  the time, like with my niece and nephew, like, you know, Jim is
• 29:13
  the only CI ever got because no one like I just I couldn't run
• 29:19
  that. Like, you know, the little
• 29:20
  fitness challenge to make you to make you run the mile and do a
• 29:24
  push up, a pull up and I couldn't do any of it.
• 29:27
  They're like, you are completely out of shape.
• 29:32
  You can't do anything. And I'm like, I know because it
• 29:36
  was never emphasized in my family.
• 29:38
  And even as a teen, I wasn't very physically, like, active in
• 29:42
  the sense that I was taking care of, like, strength building and
• 29:45
  all of that stuff. Yeah.
• 29:46
  And it's funny, only in the last.
• 29:50
  I want to say I started walking around 2017.
• 29:53
  OK. Like walking regularly.
• 29:55
  Like when I say walking, are you like walking religiously?
• 29:58
  Like if I don't walk at least three to four times a week, I
• 30:00
  feel off. Yeah.
• 30:02
  Right, and that's been and and walking.
• 30:05
  I get the sun. You know what it is like you get
• 30:07
  the sun, you get nature, you every, everything seems to feel
• 30:11
  better after I walk to the point where like even my husband now
• 30:15
  recognizes that if I'm like a little crabby, he's like, why
• 30:18
  don't you go for a walk? He's like, that's going to make
• 30:20
  you feel better, right? And he goes, why don't you go
• 30:23
  for a walk? Because it always makes you feel
• 30:25
  better. And so I think physically one,
• 30:28
  I've recognized that more recently I've added like a bit
• 30:33
  of yoga, a little bit of strength training, and all of
• 30:37
  that is new to me. Like, and I even I'll tell the
• 30:40
  people in class like this is so new to me because it's not
• 30:43
  something I grew up with. Yeah, yeah.
• 30:47
  And it, it's, it takes a long time to build stamina, but it's
• 30:51
  never too late. And I'm beginning to do it.
• 30:54
  And it feels good, actually. I'm really excited that I've
• 31:00
  begun to take care of myself physically and also a little bit
• 31:04
  more about, like, what I'm putting in my body, like eating
• 31:06
  clean air and all that kind of stuff.
• 31:08
  If not, people always eating clean air try really hard most
• 31:13
  of the time to eat like yeah. Clean.
• 31:15
  Right. So that's been the physical
• 31:19
  aspect of it. The emotional is, is, is a
• 31:23
  little different. And I think a lot of cultures
• 31:26
  have this. I know I've spoken like I know I
• 31:31
  watched show like we I wasn't raised to talk about emotions.
• 31:39
  And I think my parents for sure were not raised to talk about
• 31:46
  emotions. Like we don't sit around and get
• 31:48
  touchy feely and talk about emotions.
• 31:50
  I'm very much thinking like if you've ever watched everyone
• 31:53
  loves Raymond the the parent like Raymond's parents, like
• 31:57
  they're like that think that environment not as aggressive as
• 32:01
  those parents are, but like they don't they don't we don't like
• 32:05
  sit around and get touchy feely and talk about emotions.
• 32:07
  If someone does, it gets really weird and awkward and like, OK,
• 32:10
  we don't do that right. And so how do I approach my
• 32:16
  kids, though is very touchy feely, right?
• 32:21
  So I wasn't raised with it, but maybe it's something I sort of
• 32:25
  recognize that I really like. I mean, to the point where my
• 32:29
  kids are like, OK, mom, this is like a lot of TMI, like too much
• 32:32
  information. I'm like, no, but like, how does
• 32:34
  this make you feel? How does that make you feel?
• 32:37
  And do you feel do you feel validated?
• 32:40
  Do you feel appreciate? They're like, OK, like mom,
• 32:44
  we're good. Like can you back off?
• 32:45
  So maybe I just need to like on my emotional journey.
• 32:49
  I need to find a bit of a valid because I still my parents have
• 32:56
  gotten a tiny bit better. I think about talking about
• 33:02
  emotions or I think my sister and I have gotten a little bit
• 33:05
  better probing probing it out of them.
• 33:08
  Sure, we will be like mom, we think you're upset right now
• 33:12
  because this is what's actually going on, not this.
• 33:16
  And then she goes, oh, OK, like no one, no one has.
• 33:22
  She hasn't had the upbringing to process emotions, if that makes
• 33:26
  sense. And neither and neither has my
• 33:30
  dad, right? And I, and this, I'm talking
• 33:32
  about whole generation, generations of people who
• 33:35
  haven't, right? Right.
• 33:37
  And so it's tricky because it could get awkward really
• 33:42
  quickly. Yeah.
• 33:44
  Or you kind of do like you chip away at it very slowly.
• 33:49
  Yeah, yeah. And kind of invite me.
• 33:53
  Yeah, and, and, and I think what I've learned, and I actually,
• 33:56
  it's funny because we had a friend over this weekend and he
• 33:59
  was saying, you know, my parents, I don't, we don't
• 34:01
  really talk like we, we, we spend time together, sure.
• 34:05
  And we talk a lot about logistics and we have meals
• 34:07
  together, but we don't talk like yeah, about really real yeah,
• 34:13
  yes. And I think a lot of families
• 34:15
  are like that so too. But but when it well, everyone
• 34:21
  really does want to see feel seen.
• 34:23
  And so when I do chip away a little bit, even at my dad, like
• 34:27
  dad, like, how are you? Like, I think, what do you think
• 34:31
  about this topic? I feel like it's making you like
• 34:34
  uneasy. Then he'll like say something.
• 34:36
  At least I get a sentence out of him.
• 34:39
  Sure, right. But you?
• 34:40
  Introduce it in a little more of an academic way so it doesn't
• 34:45
  feel like you're acting asking directly about his emotional
• 34:49
  state, even though that's what you're sitting at.
• 34:51
  You're using something correlated that might feel a
• 34:54
  little more comfortable or familiar.
• 34:56
  Yes, yes, yes. So I, I think it's, it's an
• 34:59
  interesting bridge because even though I wasn't talk brought up
• 35:03
  talking about emotions, I am part of a culture now that's
• 35:06
  very much about talking about emotions, processing feelings,
• 35:09
  because I spend so much time doing like yoga and things, you
• 35:13
  know, a lot of is about letting go and just, OK, let it flow.
• 35:16
  You're allowed to feel this way today and then you move on.
• 35:19
  All that kind of stuff. Anyway, it's part of the reason
• 35:22
  I also built it into my novel because if you look, if you, if
• 35:25
  you read, I'm going to hold it up for people, just it's called
• 35:28
  anagram destiny in case you're on YouTube and watching.
• 35:34
  But I did build in, like I brought in this idea, built in
• 35:39
  an idea of talking about feelings.
• 35:43
  And it's funny because the the the parents of my protagonist
• 35:47
  don't really talk about feelings until something bad happens and
• 35:52
  then they're forced to talk about it.
• 35:54
  And if there's a whole chapter in which like the dad basically
• 35:58
  still can't, right? And so there, he's like, I call
• 36:03
  it silent love. It's my silent love chapter.
• 36:06
  It's a whole chapter on how the dad shows love and what he wants
• 36:12
  for his daughter after she's gone through all this like
• 36:14
  trauma basically without saying anything.
• 36:18
  Wow, does that make? Sense.
• 36:19
  Yes. No, that does make sense.
• 36:22
  And I think it's like silence is a love language too in itself.
• 36:26
  Yes. And, and, you know, I think it,
• 36:30
  I, I think the dad for the dad, it's always like actions speak
• 36:34
  louder than words. I mean, you do all these like
• 36:36
  little things which made her feel she knew she was deeply
• 36:39
  loved, even though they, they never talked about emotions.
• 36:44
  And I think that's also, I think this is very common in Asian
• 36:48
  cultures, Middle Eastern cultures as well, that there's a
• 36:52
  deep silent love among families, but they don't say the word I
• 36:56
  love you and they don't talk about it.
• 36:58
  And I think there's also something very special about
• 37:00
  that. Yes, Like I, I, I I don't like
• 37:05
  when some certain emotions are diluted, if that makes sense.
• 37:09
  Sure, and actions do speak louder than words.
• 37:12
  Like if your people around you are are treating you in a way
• 37:17
  and acting in a way you feel that and so that and and which
• 37:23
  in in conjunct, you know, on contrast, people will say all
• 37:27
  the right things, but their actions are not following suit.
• 37:30
  Those are empty. You know, those are empty words.
• 37:33
  And so there is a lot of power in that, especially that feeling
• 37:36
  love to peace. So I I'm so glad you brought
• 37:38
  that up. And I think, you know, going
• 37:40
  back to The Walking piece, you're that's really, it not
• 37:43
  only serves you physically, it serves you mentally and
• 37:46
  emotionally as well. You clear your head, you clear
• 37:48
  your mind, you process what you need to you feel better.
• 37:51
  Yoga has that same power in it, being mindful, taking those
• 37:55
  meditative moments, allowing yourself, giving yourself
• 37:58
  permission to feel exactly where you are today without judgment,
• 38:02
  without shame. So there is a lot of power.
• 38:05
  And then and I talk a lot about a lot this a lot about the
• 38:08
  importance of writing down and feeling and acknowledging your
• 38:11
  emotion and allowing yourself to move through them at the same
• 38:15
  time, saying that you feel or will do something and not
• 38:19
  following through with it with the appropriate actions is is
• 38:23
  shallow in and like you said, diluted.
• 38:26
  Let's act what? And so that feel that knowing
• 38:29
  like you've never said it to me, but I see every day through your
• 38:34
  through the way you live your life and the things that that we
• 38:38
  participate in. I feel your love every day.
• 38:41
  And there's a lot of power in that.
• 38:42
  I think that's an important thing to bring to light.
• 38:45
  I think that can be missed sometimes.
• 38:47
  Not that we don't want to hear the words, but if we hear the
• 38:50
  words without the actions, what's the point?
• 38:53
  But you know, so so yeah, being able to bring both together.
• 38:57
  But I, I do think there's, there's an important and just
• 39:00
  the reverence and importance for the family in the family dynamic
• 39:04
  and how we care for each other. That is really evident as well,
• 39:09
  I think is really powerful. So thank you for sharing that.
• 39:11
  I think that's such an important piece and that that part in your
• 39:14
  chapter 2, that silent love piece, there's a lot of power
• 39:18
  and we don't always have to be saying words all the time.
• 39:22
  There's, I mean, if there's a lot of power in being able to
• 39:24
  sit with the ones we love, just being together, sitting in a
• 39:28
  room together, not having to say a thing, knowing that the we
• 39:32
  appreciate each other, being there, sharing that space
• 39:35
  together. That's another really powerful
• 39:38
  thing and A and a way, especially when you're dealing
• 39:41
  with generations, because if this is, this is a new thing
• 39:45
  across the board for us to be talking about.
• 39:48
  I mean, we do talk about how the the different cultural
• 39:51
  narratives and differences there can be, but also just across the
• 39:54
  board, I think in culturally everywhere, we're really just
• 39:58
  getting into this conversation over the last 10 years about
• 40:01
  emotions and allowing our safe spaces and places to feel
• 40:06
  process move through and the physical ramifications that can
• 40:09
  happen if we don't the diseases and the.
• 40:12
  And the, and the stressors and the anxiety and all those
• 40:16
  different things we carry in our body if we don't allow ourselves
• 40:18
  space. But there's a nuance within
• 40:20
  that. And you spoke so well to the
• 40:22
  nuance of that. So thank you so much.
• 40:24
  Those are such great examples, like how we can support
• 40:28
  ourselves and other women in living unapologetically.
• 40:32
  I feel like you modeled this really well, both in your
• 40:35
  workplace, but also in in your book, the way you presented this
• 40:40
  story and, and, and the, the way you talk to your students.
• 40:46
  And we talked about this a lot in the panels about what's
• 40:51
  happening in the world and, and thinking about, you know, if I
• 40:57
  make this business decision, it's going to have an impact on
• 41:00
  these people. Have you thought that through?
• 41:03
  A lot of these people you're talking about are women and
• 41:06
  children, and so just by nature of your work and the types of
• 41:11
  things you talk about and advocate for, you show up really
• 41:15
  organically in this space. And also within education.
• 41:19
  It is if you're working in higher Ed, it's so important to
• 41:23
  have women showing up for each other and supporting each other
• 41:26
  in these spaces rather than seeing each other as
• 41:29
  competitors, which is very much been a pattern over time.
• 41:33
  So, so talk to me about all of that and how you how that is
• 41:36
  played out in your life and how you've seen that unfold.
• 41:40
  I think when it comes to, I will say this so because I've been in
• 41:44
  higher Ed so much for so long, but I'm also surrounded by
• 41:50
  mothers who have teens who are teens who are soon going to go
• 41:54
  to college. I am constantly around Chatter
• 41:58
  is what I say around the pressure of getting into college
• 42:02
  and going to college and getting good grades and
• 42:05
  extracurriculars. And I call it chatter because I
• 42:10
  think when your child finds the right institution, the right
• 42:14
  fit, whether it's college or not college, but especially if it's
• 42:17
  a college, that they're just, they're, they should apologize.
• 42:23
  Like sometimes I have these students, they'll come to me.
• 42:28
  Oh, I really wanted to go to like NYU, but I didn't get it.
• 42:32
  But I still wanted to go to the city.
• 42:34
  So I picked Manhattan University because we're still in the city,
• 42:38
  right? And I said, but like, I don't
• 42:40
  need, you don't need to validate yourself to me about like why
• 42:47
  you chose because I'm going to give you 150% no matter what,
• 42:53
  whether you wanted this was your top choice or your last choice,
• 42:57
  right? And for many people, it was
• 42:59
  their top choice. But the point being that there's
• 43:02
  space for everyone in this world and to stop like sort of
• 43:08
  apologizing in a way or justifying why you made certain
• 43:12
  decisions. I, I, I find myself doing it too
• 43:15
  sometimes. We're all sick, you know, I, I,
• 43:21
  I, I wanted to, I wanted to maybe go teach at R1 University,
• 43:28
  but I chose Manhattan because I wanted to work life balance.
• 43:30
  But I've been so happy at my institution for the last 15
• 43:34
  years, like so genuinely happy with the culture, with my
• 43:39
  students. What it, and I'm thinking like,
• 43:42
  OK, why do, why, why am I doing that?
• 43:45
  It's probably because someone else is having that expectation.
• 43:49
  Right. And so we need to, I think we
• 43:54
  tend to apologize when we feel like this is what this person
• 43:58
  expected of me. Yeah, but I did something
• 44:01
  differently. So now I have to justify or
• 44:04
  apologize or validate why I behaved in this way.
• 44:08
  And once we stopped like this, like that was their expectation.
• 44:11
  Has nothing to do with me. Yeah, I should have.
• 44:14
  I should have run my course or taken my path either way.
• 44:19
  And I build it around that framework because like what I'm
• 44:22
  telling these parents usually is like there's a, there's a
• 44:25
  college for everyone within that space.
• 44:28
  They will find a path and they will find their way.
• 44:31
  And there's not that much that we should be stressing about or
• 44:35
  worrying about, even though it's natural.
• 44:38
  Yeah. For sure, yeah.
• 44:41
  And that's, so I, I think there's, when there's a mismatch
• 44:44
  of someone else's expectations with what you were delivering,
• 44:48
  you tend to apologize, but really what you're delivering is
• 44:53
  what is authentic to you, right? So I, I think showing up means
• 44:59
  we, we kind of care a little bit less about every, what
• 45:03
  expectations are others. And so that's sort of how I see
• 45:09
  showing up on a sort of on a other one apologetically.
• 45:14
  I know it's. A mouthful, isn't it?
• 45:16
  It is a mouthful. I love that.
• 45:19
  I think that's so important. I think women especially can be
• 45:23
  fall into this place of over explaining and apologizing for
• 45:28
  things that they don't need to be apologizing for.
• 45:31
  And I within those expectations, whether there's somebody's real
• 45:35
  expectations or something that is in your head that you've
• 45:39
  decided they must have expected of you releasing those and we'll
• 45:42
  get into that in a minute, but that you don't have to over
• 45:45
  explain or justify this fits you show up unapologetically is who
• 45:49
  you are in this space. Allow yourself and when you show
• 45:52
  up unapologetically, I really think it's an invitation to
• 45:56
  others or like I want more of what she has.
• 45:58
  I like the way she's showing up in this space.
• 46:01
  She feels very sure of herself, very content, very non
• 46:04
  judgmental of other people's choices, ready to support.
• 46:07
  But I like, I really like the way she's carrying herself here.
• 46:11
  I think that is also an invitation for others to do
• 46:15
  those things as well. Yeah, I agree.
• 46:19
  I think you I know this is all the time women started starting
• 46:24
  sentences with I'm sorry, but I just have to ask this or I'm
• 46:27
  sorry, but can you explain like I'm like we have to stop
• 46:33
  starting sentences with sorry. Yeah, yeah.
• 46:37
  I actually talked to, so I work with a women, a women's group
• 46:40
  out of the Craig School of Business here at Fresno State
• 46:44
  University and it's called the GAL Initiative gender and
• 46:47
  leadership. And we really work with women
• 46:50
  going into and anybody who wants to come, but primarily women and
• 46:55
  those who identify as women that want to go into workspaces that
• 46:59
  are male dominated spaces traditionally.
• 47:01
  So helping them really build up not just what they're learning
• 47:04
  in college, but the confidence, the skill sets, how to their
• 47:08
  brand, believing they deserve to be seen, known and heard.
• 47:12
  And one of the things that I talked to them about a couple of
• 47:16
  months ago was I'm like, don't ever walk into a room and when
• 47:22
  you have an idea or something you want to share or a thought
• 47:26
  or a question or anything, don't ever, especially as a woman,
• 47:31
  lead with I'm sorry, but don't do it.
• 47:34
  Take, you know, go in front of your mirror and train that
• 47:38
  because some, a few of them had come.
• 47:40
  I was like, I'm sorry to keep you.
• 47:41
  I'm like, don't ever. I chose to be here.
• 47:44
  This is one of my favorite spaces that I get to inhabit
• 47:47
  here locally to, to help you and support you in any way that I
• 47:52
  can. And whenever you go into a
• 47:54
  space, you don't have to apologize for showing up in the
• 47:58
  room, having a voice, having a question of concern or even
• 48:01
  needing to ask a favor. So I'm glad you we brought that
• 48:04
  up because I think that's a little thing, but it's a big
• 48:07
  thing and that you can just take out of your vocabulary because
• 48:10
  it changes the way someone receives you when you just
• 48:14
  started confidently versus with I'm sorry, but so think I'm so
• 48:19
  glad you spoke to that. That's really good.
• 48:21
  It's all It's also learned behavior where it takes time to
• 48:25
  shed it. The desk same like I am a
• 48:28
  recovering over explaining champion of the world.
• 48:31
  Just ask my family. And it was really through my
• 48:34
  family saying you don't need to justify that.
• 48:36
  You don't need to explain it. It's good, good.
• 48:39
  Do you? I was like, yeah.
• 48:41
  And it was. Such a good reminder, all right,
• 48:44
  the importance of setting and coming back to your why and your
• 48:47
  values in what you do. You're very clearly aligned with
• 48:51
  your work and and this is going to tie really well into the next
• 48:57
  talking point of living out of your own expectations, which
• 48:59
  you've already touched on a little bit.
• 49:01
  But getting back to that, why in values and what you do and how
• 49:05
  you do it, Talk to me about how that you've aligned those things
• 49:08
  in your life, in your journey. Yeah, I think the why questions
• 49:13
  always been, it's never how I framed it, but I think I'm
• 49:18
  always known what I want, which is I want to be like during
• 49:28
  adolescence, I had these very, I guess, watershed experiences
• 49:33
  where I got to grow abroad and do service work and and see the
• 49:36
  world. You know, I got to spend time in
• 49:38
  Kenya and and and Philippines and Honduras.
• 49:41
  Like I, I saw the world at a young age and what sort of
• 49:45
  impact you can have on it. Sure, right.
• 49:48
  So the the why, the why has always been like, how do you
• 49:53
  build a better world, right. How do you, how do you build a
• 49:58
  better, kinder world where people are not suffering at the
• 50:01
  level that we see suffering? And over time, I've learned that
• 50:06
  the best way to do it is to start young, like start with
• 50:10
  young people and make sure you explain it to them or expose it
• 50:15
  to them. Because if you lived a very
• 50:17
  sheltered life and if you grew up, let's say, in the suburbs of
• 50:20
  New York, and you never really had exposure and the only
• 50:24
  exposure you had is to like Instagram or some videos or
• 50:27
  documentaries, and you've never spent time outside of that, You
• 50:32
  don't necessarily get to recognize that you could have
• 50:35
  impact. You can actually do something
• 50:36
  about it, that there are small things.
• 50:38
  And I'm not saying like, you know, clearly we're not going to
• 50:41
  save the world, all of us, but we can have impact in it, right?
• 50:45
  We can do small things that are going to matter.
• 50:49
  And so the why is always like, OK, I'm going to write a novel.
• 50:53
  How is that going to make the world a better place?
• 50:56
  I am going to teach about XY or Z topics.
• 50:59
  How do I teach it in a way that long term has positive impact,
• 51:04
  right? Like being at a Business School.
• 51:06
  Trust me, so much of it is profit driven.
• 51:08
  So much is like. I know.
• 51:10
  How do we how do we make the most money?
• 51:13
  And I'm always reframing like you're, you're, you're it's not
• 51:16
  that you have to make them. Yes, try not to go out of
• 51:19
  business. That's really important, right?
• 51:21
  You need to make sure that you in the process or not just
• 51:25
  making the world a better place, but not making decisions that
• 51:29
  are hurting people. Yeah.
• 51:31
  Right. That are actually at the other
• 51:33
  end of this. And so the why has always been
• 51:36
  whatever it takes and and through the novel.
• 51:38
  I think so by by storytelling in this deep way where you create
• 51:43
  so many emotions, right? Yeah.
• 51:49
  So many, like serious, significant emotions.
• 51:53
  I think by default, that builds empathy, right?
• 51:56
  This is why we've talked about this before, Melissa.
• 51:59
  Young people, like children who read, tend to be highly
• 52:03
  empathetic because they've gone through so many different
• 52:07
  characters and their emotions in different faces in the world,
• 52:12
  right? And so they're like, oh, I read
• 52:15
  about like, you know, and I think I even mentioned this to
• 52:19
  you in one of our panels. Both of my daughters are
• 52:23
  readers, big readers, and they read a lot of they read
• 52:29
  everything. They read fantasy, they read
• 52:31
  realistic fiction, They read all sorts of stuff.
• 52:34
  What I, what I find, and especially my older one who
• 52:37
  started reading at an earlier age and is much, much more
• 52:39
  prolific reader is she's so non judgmental.
• 52:44
  You know, I was actually having this conversation with the same
• 52:46
  friend over the weekend. I said, you know, my older
• 52:48
  daughter is one of the most non judgmental people I've ever met.
• 52:54
  She in fact will call me out sometimes when I'm saying mom
• 52:57
  like she's like mom, you're being judgy right now like that.
• 53:00
  I've. Heard the same thing before and
• 53:04
  it's you know. And I'm like, oh, OK.
• 53:05
  And but I think part of the reason that of course, some of
• 53:08
  this is like, you know, personality, part of it is that
• 53:11
  she she reads so much and she goes through so many emotions
• 53:16
  with these characters and in different parts of the world, in
• 53:21
  different scenarios and different types of, you know,
• 53:25
  whether it's grief or love or, you know, triumph, whatever,
• 53:29
  she's going through it like she gets so invested.
• 53:32
  You know, like I, I always joke when I leave her home alone.
• 53:36
  I always joke, Please don't burn the house down.
• 53:39
  And I say that not because she's cooking, right?
• 53:42
  I say it because if, if, if there's something that like if
• 53:45
  someone's breaking into the house, she will not know because
• 53:48
  she's so invested in her book. Yeah.
• 53:50
  She's, she would be like, oh. Yeah, she's in that world and
• 53:54
  I'm like, OK, can you just be conscious?
• 53:57
  So, but I think in that is something that come out
• 54:00
  something so positive, which is that she's very empathetic and
• 54:05
  people who are empathetic at that level will think they will
• 54:12
  think a lot before they make decisions that negatively impact
• 54:15
  someone else. Yeah.
• 54:17
  Yeah. Right.
• 54:17
  And so why I think about my why even through teaching, whether
• 54:21
  through it's the novel, I said, how can you widen people's
• 54:26
  exposure to how other people in the world are living or what
• 54:31
  they were given in this lottery of life?
• 54:33
  Really. Yeah.
• 54:34
  It's a lottery, right. Like where we were born and who
• 54:36
  we were born to and what country we were born.
• 54:39
  It is, you know. 10 or percent. Random, you know, I always, I
• 54:45
  always tell my students, if you're sitting in this classroom
• 54:47
  with me and you're getting this education, I know you don't want
• 54:52
  to believe it, but you're like 1 or 2%, you're privileged.
• 54:56
  You're 1 or 2% of the world, which means you already won the
• 54:59
  lottery. So stop saying I want to win the
• 55:00
  lottery because you won the lottery because you just have a
• 55:04
  resources. Simple as Access to education.
• 55:08
  Yeah. Do you know in the in the
• 55:10
  difference that makes that we take for granted?
• 55:14
  Yeah, you know, so, so it's like what they what they have, there
• 55:18
  are literally kids and and young people around the world that
• 55:21
  would just give anything to have that right.
• 55:24
  And and so I think then in return, what is their, no matter
• 55:30
  what career path they take, it should be very, very socially
• 55:35
  conscious. Create your path in the sense
• 55:38
  that whether I become a doctor or whether I become a business
• 55:41
  person or whether I become, you know, whatever it is like an
• 55:46
  entrepreneur that they make very socially conscious decisions how
• 55:50
  this impacts people. Yeah, the environment, all that
• 55:54
  kind of stuff. And not it's not just profit
• 55:56
  driven. And I have to say, Melissa, I've
• 55:59
  been really impressed. I know like the younger
• 56:01
  generations get a lot of Flack for, you know, being on social
• 56:05
  media too much, all that kind of stuff.
• 56:09
  But watching generations go through higher education, I can
• 56:14
  tell you the generations that are coming through now in the
• 56:16
  last like 5 to 10 years, they're way more socially conscious than
• 56:22
  people who I started teaching very early in my career.
• 56:26
  The people early in my career, I used to have to tell them that
• 56:29
  your business should have a purpose aside for profit.
• 56:33
  Now they come in with the purpose and I'm like, wait, you
• 56:35
  got to make money or you're going to go out of this.
• 56:39
  That I think that's such an important distinction.
• 56:41
  I'm so glad you said that. And I noticed it even in my own
• 56:45
  daughters, like my husband and I are all the time.
• 56:48
  They're between 26 and 30 and they're like, they're way ahead
• 56:52
  of the game in terms of how they think through their impact than
• 56:58
  we were at this point. And I mean just way ahead of the
• 57:02
  game. It's for it's at the forefront
• 57:04
  of their minds in this, in this process.
• 57:08
  So I, I, it's so interesting to hear you say that about the
• 57:12
  students you're seeing because that feels like what we've seen
• 57:15
  as well, just in our own family unit.
• 57:17
  But the that reading piece and that in the travel piece, when
• 57:22
  you have the opportunity, those things change the way you engage
• 57:27
  in the world. They change the way you engage
• 57:30
  with people that impact the way you make decisions, whether it's
• 57:35
  about your business, whether it's about how you vote, whether
• 57:39
  it is about what you buy and what you don't buy and based on
• 57:44
  who you're supporting or not supporting.
• 57:46
  Those things matter. And it's through, you know,
• 57:49
  encouraging those avenues of opportunity and it and you know,
• 57:55
  like I said, with the books, you can you can like, if I can get
• 58:00
  there are some books I that come to mind that I've gotten into
• 58:03
  that I am I so there. I'm so in the moment.
• 58:06
  And it also takes me spaces and places I would have never been
• 58:10
  able to go, like if I hadn't had that opportunity.
• 58:14
  And also comes out of it with like, wow, I'd never thought
• 58:17
  about it that way before. That really gives me a new
• 58:19
  reflection or insight. And we talked about this on the
• 58:22
  on the panels and on the radio show about why you chose to
• 58:27
  write a fiction book, even though it's based on a lot of
• 58:32
  your experiences growing up and an homage to your own family.
• 58:36
  Because it is an invitation where people that wouldn't maybe
• 58:41
  normally pick up a fiction book about that to go on a journey
• 58:46
  with you because they are more likely to pick up a fiction book
• 58:50
  about that. And you and I talked about how
• 58:52
  that can be a bridge right now to connect people where your
• 58:57
  values are actually not that different.
• 59:00
  It's how you're getting there is where you're running into
• 59:03
  issues. But if you can see your connect
• 59:06
  points through this book and engage teaching in it together,
• 59:12
  then that can open up doors for conversations that you wouldn't
• 59:16
  have otherwise. I mean, and so I think bringing
• 59:18
  that into play here and that's a sneak peek.
• 59:21
  Go check out our panel conversations where we talked
• 59:24
  about the power of the written word.
• 59:27
  Go into our radio show archive. You can find that on our sub SAC
• 59:31
  and find the conversation last fall or Grisham and I get into
• 59:35
  that. That's all available on our
• 59:37
  website at embracinglars.com. But I wanted to bring that in
• 59:40
  too because that's another way that your why has come in.
• 59:44
  It's like I can make impact with this story if I go this route,
• 59:48
  which this goes nicely into living out of your own
• 59:51
  expectations versus others in higher Ed academia.
• 59:55
  Writing fiction is not a normal route.
• 59:57
  You see from doctor Grishma Shah has all of these articles out
• 1:00:02
  here about her work, that non fiction business articles, you
• 1:00:06
  know, those kinds of things that you that you publish when you
• 1:00:10
  are a tenured professor. And oh, she's written this
• 1:00:14
  fiction story too. So talk to me about that, the
• 1:00:18
  expectations around that that you've navigated.
• 1:00:22
  Yeah, So like you said, when I, when I first started writing the
• 1:00:26
  novel, even when I was pretty close to getting it published,
• 1:00:31
  there are very few people like in my inner circle, I would say
• 1:00:34
  at work, who knew that I had written a novel, Right.
• 1:00:38
  And part of it was because you're like, you know, it's
• 1:00:40
  supposed to be very serious and everything's supposed to be hard
• 1:00:42
  data and science and all of those things.
• 1:00:45
  And I do all of those things. I have lots of particles on on
• 1:00:48
  it. But I've also sort of found that
• 1:00:52
  it wasn't engaging A wider audience, right.
• 1:00:55
  I mean, how many people are looking up academic art?
• 1:00:58
  It's very, it's a very close circle.
• 1:01:01
  The people look up academic articles or people were also
• 1:01:05
  doing research in that field. Yeah.
• 1:01:07
  Or, you know, like it's very like sort of internal in some
• 1:01:12
  way. And so like, you're not really
• 1:01:14
  reaching A wider audience in any, any, any way, right?
• 1:01:18
  So that's why I chose fictions for all the things I told her.
• 1:01:21
  I think it's Bill, it's empathy, compassion.
• 1:01:23
  It's it integrates all of these things I've been doing for
• 1:01:26
  years, which is taking my students abroad on trips and
• 1:01:30
  observing the changes that go take are taking place in the
• 1:01:32
  world. And also a bit autobiographical
• 1:01:34
  in the sense that my upbringing was as an immigrant to this
• 1:01:38
  country. But I think in the beginning, I
• 1:01:41
  was very hesitant to share this idea at work.
• 1:01:46
  But over time, as I did, I actually found that that people
• 1:01:51
  really were fascinated by it, number one.
• 1:01:54
  And two, really into it like, they're like, oh, that's kind of
• 1:01:57
  cool. Don't get me wrong.
• 1:01:58
  There might be a couple of people at work who are still
• 1:02:01
  kind of like have their, you know, nose in the air and are
• 1:02:03
  like, it doesn't count as like something legit right or
• 1:02:09
  whatever. But a majority of people have
• 1:02:12
  just been really supportive and actually been sharing with me
• 1:02:16
  all of their outside talents and hobbies, right?
• 1:02:19
  I think I mentioned. This.
• 1:02:20
  To you. I went to an academic conference
• 1:02:23
  where I brought it up and I would have never brought it up
• 1:02:26
  to this person, but I I said, like, you know what, What do I
• 1:02:30
  have to lose? And he said, oh, yeah, I have a
• 1:02:32
  pen name. And I write, I think the genre
• 1:02:37
  and I was called romanticy, which is romantic fantasy.
• 1:02:39
  And it's just very like serious, very serious academic, really
• 1:02:44
  well known. And he's like, no, no, no, I
• 1:02:47
  write romanticy under a pen name.
• 1:02:49
  I'm going to send you my pen name and the links to my books.
• 1:02:52
  And that would have, but never have come up in conversation
• 1:02:56
  unless I share. Right.
• 1:02:58
  So I think all. Of us we'll talk about embracing
• 1:03:01
  layers all of us have these different layers right to us and
• 1:03:06
  we sometimes are, are like, OK, well, this layer I can only
• 1:03:10
  share with this group and this layer I can only share with this
• 1:03:12
  group and this layer I can only share with this group.
• 1:03:15
  And sort of coming out of that and saying no, like you can
• 1:03:18
  share every bit of yourself with different fragments of, of, of
• 1:03:23
  your life. I think it's really helped over
• 1:03:27
  over time, right? And I'm glad I've, it's really
• 1:03:31
  been such a fun experience, right?
• 1:03:33
  Like it's been a hard experience.
• 1:03:35
  Don't get me wrong, we need lots of rejection.
• 1:03:36
  It's been a hard experience, but probably the one that have grown
• 1:03:41
  from the most, like, personally and professionally.
• 1:03:45
  OK, so all right. Yeah.
• 1:03:47
  Thank you for that. And anything else you want to
• 1:03:49
  say about expectations because you've, you've spoken to it some
• 1:03:52
  already, but this is something that you've had to navigate a
• 1:03:54
  lot in your life. Yeah.
• 1:03:58
  So luckily, I think in terms of my family, but particularly my
• 1:04:06
  parents, right? They've always been very open
• 1:04:09
  minded, but they did have an expectation that, you know, I, I
• 1:04:13
  would have, I would, I wish to be able to sustain myself,
• 1:04:17
  right? Like one, I would like pick a
• 1:04:20
  Courier that is not necessarily creative where, you know, like,
• 1:04:25
  don't be a starving artist because that's going to be
• 1:04:27
  tough, right? And so I think from the
• 1:04:30
  beginning, I, I, the way I chose a path had always been at some
• 1:04:34
  point to think through like, OK, how, how can I answer my why,
• 1:04:41
  but still do it in a very professional way And seem like
• 1:04:44
  academia was was around when I first, you know, told my
• 1:04:50
  parents, I'm writing a book and all those things.
• 1:04:53
  It was hard. They never these days just
• 1:04:56
  thought it was great to begin with.
• 1:04:57
  So from that point of view, that expectation has been not
• 1:05:02
  something I've had to battle with, if that makes sense.
• 1:05:04
  It was more like how I aligned the professional with the
• 1:05:07
  personal and the creator with the the personal.
• 1:05:10
  Yeah. OK.
• 1:05:12
  All right. Thank you for that.
• 1:05:13
  I appreciate that because I think that's something that you
• 1:05:16
  run into a lot when your parents have worked so hard to get you
• 1:05:20
  to a point that balancing act of following what is authentic to
• 1:05:25
  you and, and, and is there a way to marry that with their
• 1:05:30
  expectations? But also being willing to
• 1:05:32
  release and be true to yourself and finding in finding a way to
• 1:05:36
  balance that. And you've found a way to
• 1:05:37
  balance that, which I think is really because it's not always
• 1:05:40
  that I don't want. Easy is not the right word.
• 1:05:42
  It's not always that clear, like sometimes.
• 1:05:47
  Yeah. And I do think that I'm not
• 1:05:49
  bringing the personal into this at all, right.
• 1:05:52
  I I think part of it is like I've also done all of the other
• 1:05:56
  check box. I got married.
• 1:05:57
  I had children. I think had I become a professor
• 1:06:03
  and written a book and not been married and have children, which
• 1:06:06
  is like a really big thing for them and our culture.
• 1:06:10
  Yeah. And I think every culture, I
• 1:06:13
  think. Women are expected.
• 1:06:15
  Women are expected to get married and have children.
• 1:06:17
  Or if it like if they choose one or the other or don't choose any
• 1:06:20
  of them, Yeah, no matter how accomplished they are, people
• 1:06:26
  question, Yeah. Why isn't?
• 1:06:27
  Why isn't she married? I know, I know.
• 1:06:30
  So I literally had a conversation with a woman about
• 1:06:32
  this this morning and she helped.
• 1:06:34
  Single women now live their best lives and get past this
• 1:06:39
  narrative. So there's still a lot to work.
• 1:06:41
  On yeah. So I do want to completely
• 1:06:44
  undermine the expectations. Had I not met some of those
• 1:06:48
  other ones? Sure.
• 1:06:49
  Had I not checked the boxes on some of those other ones, maybe
• 1:06:54
  the book would have been questioned.
• 1:06:55
  Like what you focus on? Why don't you focus on finding
• 1:06:59
  the right guys? You're right in this book, I
• 1:07:01
  don't know. I can't.
• 1:07:02
  I don't know what that would have looked like, but I can
• 1:07:06
  assure you that it is. It is a question that comes up
• 1:07:10
  for a lot of women who have chosen not to get married but
• 1:07:13
  are super accomplished in other ways or whatever it is.
• 1:07:16
  Or women who are married and have chosen not to have children
• 1:07:19
  or may not be able to have children.
• 1:07:21
  Like it comes and it doesn't matter, like how successful they
• 1:07:25
  are in other aspects of their life.
• 1:07:27
  So in terms of expectation, I think that still exists.
• 1:07:32
  I guess maybe I just checked the right boxes at me.
• 1:07:34
  Somewhere, I know. I'm so glad you.
• 1:07:37
  Thank you for that, because I think that's a really important
• 1:07:40
  thing that we're still working out and still figuring out how
• 1:07:43
  to navigate as women because those things are still out
• 1:07:45
  there. So thank you for bringing
• 1:07:47
  attention to that. I appreciate that.
• 1:07:49
  All right. And you touched on this a little
• 1:07:51
  bit already, but accepting the layered aspects of ourselves,
• 1:07:54
  all those parts and pieces that make up our journey and who we
• 1:07:59
  are and getting even for the things we didn't love as much or
• 1:08:02
  that were hard and we don't want to talk about that, we still get
• 1:08:05
  to a place of contentment, acknowledgement, like, and I
• 1:08:08
  call it curiosity versus judgment.
• 1:08:10
  Like, OK, I understand why that happened or I can see how we got
• 1:08:15
  there given this was our situation.
• 1:08:18
  And so talk to me about the layers journey for you.
• 1:08:23
  Oh, gosh, it, I think journey is the right word to use because I
• 1:08:29
  don't think any of I'm one of the few, you know, I've seen
• 1:08:33
  this trend on like Instagram lately and all over this place,
• 1:08:38
  like, oh, if you had to talk to your younger self, what would
• 1:08:41
  you say? Yeah, OK.
• 1:08:45
  And you know, I'm one of these people who like, I actually was
• 1:08:49
  a much more confident and secure younger person than I am maybe
• 1:08:55
  now because now I question things a lot more, right?
• 1:08:58
  Question my layers a lot more. Like like I said, because I was
• 1:09:02
  always chasing, always was confident, I knew what I wanted.
• 1:09:05
  I knew what the goal was Like as young as 17/18/19, I knew like,
• 1:09:10
  this is what I wanted. This is what I'm chasing and
• 1:09:14
  like the layers come in because once I had nothing to chase, I
• 1:09:19
  felt very lost and I felt like, Oh, I what am I doing with my
• 1:09:26
  life? Like I'm not like I checked box
• 1:09:29
  this I did this like what am I doing?
• 1:09:31
  And I think that's what I struggle with the most.
• 1:09:34
  One of the things I struggle do with in terms of like accepting
• 1:09:38
  all the like this is OK. This is the phase of life you
• 1:09:39
  can sit and like this is also a part of you is once even after I
• 1:09:46
  finished writing this book because like that was not a
• 1:09:49
  check box. It was a passion project, but it
• 1:09:51
  took it took seven years to get it published right.
• 1:09:55
  So there was like this big line of rejection and it took a lot
• 1:09:59
  of grit and a lot of resilience to get to the point where it's
• 1:10:03
  published and out in the world. And so for a long time, I was
• 1:10:08
  just so determined. I'm like, no matter what
• 1:10:10
  happens, this book is getting out into the world, right?
• 1:10:14
  And that's it. And like once it happened, it
• 1:10:17
  has been out for 3-6 months and I'm like, OK, now what?
• 1:10:21
  Should I be writing my next one? And sometimes I, I, I, I, I, you
• 1:10:25
  know, I'll set a word limit for myself and I won't write and
• 1:10:28
  I'll beat myself up about like, why am I not doing it?
• 1:10:31
  But again, like that chasing switch is so hard to turn off
• 1:10:34
  for me, so hard, even though I'm learning and I'm like, you will
• 1:10:37
  sit with myself now and go to yoga and spend a lot of time
• 1:10:41
  napping. Sometimes, you know, I'm a nap
• 1:10:43
  or in my I just like even my family because I'm like, you
• 1:10:47
  really like to nap. I'm like, yes, because I have
• 1:10:50
  time to right now. So like it's just like, yeah,
• 1:10:54
  yeah. But that like it's this constant
• 1:10:56
  battle in terms of the layers about should I be chasing?
• 1:10:59
  Should I be doing my next thing or should I it's OK just be just
• 1:11:03
  relax. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:11:05
  Yeah. Thank you for that.
• 1:11:06
  I love that. I love the way you explained
• 1:11:09
  that piece about the layers. And you know, I think it is,
• 1:11:12
  it's so interesting when you release a book and just being
• 1:11:16
  able to take a moment and sit and like, gosh, look what I look
• 1:11:19
  what I put out in the world. Because you're you're trying to
• 1:11:21
  promote it. You're trying to let people know
• 1:11:23
  it's there and you're trying you talking about it and, and doing
• 1:11:25
  all those things. And you know, my therapist
• 1:11:28
  talked to me about this a few months ago and she's like,
• 1:11:32
  you're really great at getting to a moment.
• 1:11:35
  And then like, great, I got to this moment.
• 1:11:37
  How do I get to the next moment? She's like, but you don't stop,
• 1:11:41
  which I guess is really chasing. She's like, but you, I would
• 1:11:44
  like to see you recognize your wins in those moments.
• 1:11:49
  So I want you to consciously each day while you're
• 1:11:53
  journaling, I want you to acknowledge a win within that
• 1:11:56
  day. And we're not talking about my
• 1:11:58
  book is the number one bestseller.
• 1:12:00
  We're talking about, you know, gosh, I took that time for
• 1:12:03
  myself and I didn't apologize for it.
• 1:12:06
  That was a witch. It's like in those moments
• 1:12:09
  finding those wins or we had, you know, and it can be work
• 1:12:12
  related to it's like, gosh, we got to this follower level and
• 1:12:16
  we are really engaging while just like whatever it is,
• 1:12:18
  whatever feels like a win to you that you've got a good night's
• 1:12:21
  sleep, whatever it is, you know, take the moment to recognize the
• 1:12:25
  winds within the day. And that has I've been doing it
• 1:12:28
  for not quite a couple two months now, probably 6-8 weeks
• 1:12:33
  now. And it really does make a
• 1:12:34
  difference, but it's not a natural inclination.
• 1:12:38
  It is not a natural inclination of ours.
• 1:12:40
  And that is part of our our layers journey.
• 1:12:43
  And like that kind of what ebb and flow of how we respond to
• 1:12:47
  those things. So thank you so much for that.
• 1:12:49
  That was really, I think really authentic to what so many of us
• 1:12:53
  are experiencing. So good.
• 1:12:55
  All right, in living out, feel, finding empowerment, embracing
• 1:13:00
  layers, Talk to me about the impact that that has had because
• 1:13:04
  you've really your life is really a picture of that in your
• 1:13:07
  journey that you're on. Talk to me about how as you've
• 1:13:11
  grown into this, how it's impacted your relationship with
• 1:13:13
  yourself as well as your relationship with other people.
• 1:13:19
  So let's start with with myself because that's easier, right?
• 1:13:31
  I think like again, back to like just being able, like taking the
• 1:13:37
  moment, like you just described, taking the wins and all of those
• 1:13:41
  things. I often forget to do that,
• 1:13:45
  right? But because I've been even like
• 1:13:48
  small little things that'll happen related to the book, I'm
• 1:13:54
  able, I I'm beginning to appreciate.
• 1:13:56
  So, so when the book first released in September, I was
• 1:13:59
  like just watching the numbers and watching this and watching
• 1:14:03
  that. I'm like, oh, is it?
• 1:14:04
  Is it like, is anyone like even looking at it on Amazon or
• 1:14:07
  whatever? And then a few months into it, I
• 1:14:11
  mean, I really hustled with marketing and promotion.
• 1:14:14
  Like I was everywhere, right? A few months into it, I was
• 1:14:17
  completely burnt out. They completely burnt out to the
• 1:14:22
  point where no matter what was happening with the book, I was
• 1:14:27
  constantly thinking about it and I was not appreciating the real,
• 1:14:32
  the people were actually reading it and telling me like, oh, this
• 1:14:37
  book resonated with me or I really like this book.
• 1:14:40
  I really like like small wins, as you would say.
• 1:14:43
  And sometimes they weren't even small.
• 1:14:44
  They were like really legit in the sense that like some women's
• 1:14:47
  group invited me to speak to 100 people.
• 1:14:50
  That was not a small win. That was pretty big.
• 1:14:52
  But I was just like, Oh no, but are they going to buy books and
• 1:14:56
  can I come over there and what bookstore is going to be there?
• 1:14:58
  And I was like, I just needed to step back a little bit and and
• 1:15:03
  say, why did you write the book, right?
• 1:15:07
  You never wrote the book because it's going to help you retire.
• 1:15:11
  Let's authors get to retire all the books, right?
• 1:15:15
  You never wrote the book because you want to become a best seller
• 1:15:19
  or like, like, you know, you wrote the book because you
• 1:15:23
  wanted people to read the story, right?
• 1:15:27
  And by reading the story, they will be better people because
• 1:15:30
  they now have to understand someone else's journey, right?
• 1:15:33
  And and you're building empathy. And that was happening already.
• 1:15:37
  That was happening. So I'm like, what, like, what am
• 1:15:40
  I burning? And it takes time to and it's
• 1:15:43
  still I straight, it's always a battle, right?
• 1:15:45
  It's like one day you wake up and you're like, OK, I need to
• 1:15:47
  sell more books or like more. And then the next thing you wake
• 1:15:50
  up and you're like, people are reading the story like a bunch
• 1:15:53
  of libraries have it. You know, I'll give you a small
• 1:15:56
  little win. My local library, my local
• 1:16:00
  library system has seven copies of the book, physical copies of
• 1:16:05
  the book because they picked it for a book club and they went to
• 1:16:08
  go speak and I checked recently, all 7 copies were checked.
• 1:16:14
  Out. Right and then like on the
• 1:16:17
  system it says, oh, you know, 7 copies all checked out like not
• 1:16:21
  on show. And I was I, I would just what a
• 1:16:24
  win, right? That seven people who have
• 1:16:27
  consciously gone to the library either seen the book randomly or
• 1:16:31
  heard about somewhere and have actually checked out who are
• 1:16:34
  reading it. So hasn't my why been answered
• 1:16:36
  and hasn't my why happening? But here I am like beating
• 1:16:39
  myself up about like, oh, but where's my Amazon ranking?
• 1:16:43
  It's just, you know, that thing. Yeah.
• 1:16:49
  The relationship with other people, they love me whether I
• 1:16:55
  wrote the book or not. Yes, yes, that's so good.
• 1:17:00
  Yes, and we forget that. Yeah, I mean, my family never
• 1:17:06
  for, you know, for seven years when I was having a hard time
• 1:17:10
  getting it published. They not for once, there was no
• 1:17:13
  like, judgement or anything. You know, they were just the
• 1:17:17
  biggest cheerleaders. Like, you know, my younger
• 1:17:20
  daughter, I think she was 9 when I started writing.
• 1:17:23
  And then, like, I kept getting rejected.
• 1:17:25
  And like, you know, every time I get ready, I think there was one
• 1:17:27
  time I was up for a big contest and I didn't win.
• 1:17:30
  I was in tears. And she's like, Mommy, I still
• 1:17:33
  love you. Like, I love you no matter what.
• 1:17:36
  And I was thinking, you know what, I have not good what I
• 1:17:40
  have people around me who are not there to judge me based on
• 1:17:47
  whether I publish this book or don't publish this when I become
• 1:17:49
  tenured or not tenured, whether I am a, you know, whatever it
• 1:17:55
  doesn't like. And I think their, their
• 1:17:57
  relationship with other people is as long as you have people
• 1:18:03
  like that in your life, that's you're OK.
• 1:18:06
  And I this, these are really good friends.
• 1:18:09
  These are family members. This is my immediate family.
• 1:18:12
  And when you find people like that, keep them around because
• 1:18:16
  they are not judging you on your external accomplishments.
• 1:18:20
  They're, they're like, we are here for all of it.
• 1:18:23
  The wins, losses, the, you know, whatever it is.
• 1:18:28
  And so I think my relationship with other people has been this
• 1:18:31
  recognition that the people have been there for the whole ride.
• 1:18:36
  Are you going to continue to be there whether the ride gets
• 1:18:38
  bumpy or not? And to keep to recognize those
• 1:18:43
  people and keep them close. And if I am somehow becoming
• 1:18:49
  distance from them because life is getting like, reach out and
• 1:18:51
  make sure I may stay in touch and make that extra effort with
• 1:18:56
  those people because they're the people who really matter.
• 1:18:59
  Yeah, and those are the people and the relationships that make
• 1:19:02
  a life, you know, if through all the ebbs and flows and all the
• 1:19:06
  ups and downs. Thank you so much for that.
• 1:19:08
  That was so good. I love that piece of those
• 1:19:11
  people are going to love me regardless of whether I write a
• 1:19:14
  book or not. I think that's something we lose
• 1:19:16
  sight of sometimes. And it's so important to go back
• 1:19:20
  and recognize, man, I've got this gift of these people around
• 1:19:24
  me that are for me. No, and are like you said, are
• 1:19:27
  here for the ride. And that is that's important.
• 1:19:30
  And that's that's what builds a life.
• 1:19:32
  Thank you so much for that. All right, we are down to the
• 1:19:35
  rapid fire. Name 5 activities that nourish
• 1:19:39
  you. OK, binge binging, binging,
• 1:19:46
  binge watching, anything that would just let's me turn off
• 1:19:50
  walking. Alright, going for a walk every
• 1:19:53
  day, just spending time with my girls, right?
• 1:19:58
  I like, and I know this like this sounds ridiculous.
• 1:20:02
  I love driving them around. Like I'm one of these moms who
• 1:20:06
  like feels like the best conversations are had when I'm
• 1:20:09
  picking them up from one thing and dropping them off at the
• 1:20:12
  other thing. And like, I'm actually not
• 1:20:14
  looking forward to my daughter getting her license, not because
• 1:20:16
  I'm worried, but because I'm like, we're going to lose that
• 1:20:18
  time. She's going to drive herself
• 1:20:19
  around because it really nourishes me.
• 1:20:25
  Just generally, like anytime and I'm in a very positive family
• 1:20:31
  environment. It really truly nourishes me,
• 1:20:35
  right? Because I, I, I have like just
• 1:20:38
  quality time. Yeah, but with family and
• 1:20:44
  writing actually as well. Writing nourishes me and I wish
• 1:20:47
  I did more of it but just sitting down and like I don't
• 1:20:50
  know if any other anyone else can relate to this or maybe
• 1:20:54
  writers can. I read a really good sentence.
• 1:20:57
  I'm like Oh my God, the sentence is so good.
• 1:21:00
  Yeah. And I'm also I'm also like upset
• 1:21:03
  with myself with bad sentences, but sometimes I like write a
• 1:21:06
  sentence and like, oh, this is good.
• 1:21:07
  I like the sentence. So I sounds ridiculous but.
• 1:21:11
  No, those things matter. I mean, because you, you, when
• 1:21:14
  you do something like that, you're like, oh, that's going to
• 1:21:16
  hit, that's going to, people are going to connect with that.
• 1:21:19
  No, I'd love that. Thank you so much. 5 words on
• 1:21:22
  how you want to feel the next six months.
• 1:21:25
  Oh gosh, I want to feel relaxed. I want to really enjoy the
• 1:21:30
  coming summer and feel relaxed, positive, want to continue like
• 1:21:37
  continue to stay positive, not let like any setbacks get to my
• 1:21:41
  head. Loved, right, Just continue to
• 1:21:47
  feel loved, accomplished, right. It is important to me that I
• 1:21:52
  feel my own sense of accomplishment and also
• 1:21:57
  productive. Like like yes, like people
• 1:22:00
  around me are love me whether I write the second book or not.
• 1:22:03
  But for me, I want to write it because I do have a story in my
• 1:22:07
  head. And so I want to be productive
• 1:22:08
  about it. I have a story I want the world
• 1:22:10
  to read. And so I would say those things.
• 1:22:14
  And I'm so glad you said productive.
• 1:22:16
  I don't want to sip that with that for a minute because
• 1:22:18
  productivity when you're taking care of yourself is a good
• 1:22:21
  thing. It's when you're when you're so
• 1:22:24
  focused on productivity that you tie it to your value and you're
• 1:22:28
  not taking time to take care of yourself, that's when it becomes
• 1:22:32
  a problem. So I'm so glad you brought that
• 1:22:34
  light to productivity and what it can be when it's healthy and
• 1:22:39
  motivated by in a healthy way. Yeah, when it's balanced, yes.
• 1:22:44
  Exactly, exactly. All right, Krishna, tell people
• 1:22:47
  where they can find you, follow you, find your book, all those
• 1:22:51
  things. And this will also be on our
• 1:22:53
  website, embracinglayers.com. It's also connected to our radio
• 1:22:57
  show and our panels. So there's multiple places
• 1:22:59
  you're going to be able to find these resources, but but let
• 1:23:02
  people know right now that are listening if they want to jot it
• 1:23:04
  down right. Now sure, thanks Melissa for
• 1:23:07
  having me on. My book is called Anagram
• 1:23:09
  Destiny and you can find it anywhere you find books.
• 1:23:13
  It is on Amazon, but if you're a small business supporter you
• 1:23:16
  will find it on bookshop.org. On my website is My Last Name
• 1:23:21
  and firstname.com, Sasha, Krishma, Shah GRIS, hma.com And
• 1:23:28
  then if you get to the website, you'll find all my social
• 1:23:31
  handles, my Instagram, LinkedIn, all that kind of stuff.
• 1:23:34
  So I won't bother you with spelling all of that out.
• 1:23:36
  But the best way to do this is just remember Grish Masha and
• 1:23:39
  then know that it's Shah grishma.com and book is called
• 1:23:43
  Anagram Destiny. OK, great.
• 1:23:45
  All right, well, I have my copy. I've got to get dive into it.
• 1:23:48
  It's on my my list of books. I love it when I meet people and
• 1:23:52
  they have these books and, and I'm so thankful to, I didn't
• 1:23:56
  mention this in the beginning to our friend Pooja Shah, who
• 1:23:59
  introduced us and, and connected me with you and she reached out
• 1:24:04
  to me. She's like, I've got somebody
• 1:24:05
  for you. I'm like, Oh, I love what that
• 1:24:07
  happens because I know it's going to be good because it's
• 1:24:09
  somebody that I've already connected with that's already
• 1:24:12
  been part of this network with me that knows, knows what we're
• 1:24:15
  looking for, knows the kind of women that are going to connect
• 1:24:18
  with this. So I'm so thankful for that.
• 1:24:19
  So shout out to, to Pooja for that.
• 1:24:21
  Thanks so much for being with me today.
• 1:24:23
  I appreciate you so much and and how you show up in the world and
• 1:24:27
  listeners. I I this is there was so much in
• 1:24:30
  this episode. Get the book, get anagram
• 1:24:32
  destiny. Think about your impact in the
• 1:24:36
  world this week and how your life aligns with that.
• 1:24:40
  Are you have you connected your impact and your intentions and
• 1:24:45
  and really thought about that. I'm going to challenge you to
• 1:24:48
  think about that this week. I think that that doctor,
• 1:24:52
  Grishma Shah, speaks to this so well and lives her life in
• 1:24:56
  alignment with this. And it's a really powerful
• 1:24:57
  lesson that I think it's good for us, all of us, to sit with
• 1:25:00
  every so often and take a look at our impact.
• 1:25:04
  All right, everybody, take good care of yourselves.
• 1:25:06
  Thanks again Grishma for being with me.
• 1:25:09
  Thank you so much, Melissa, and thank you to all your listeners.
• 1:25:12
  Absolutely. All right, Take good care all.
• 1:25:14
  Right, bye. Bye.
• 1:25:18
  Hello Melissa Crook here. Thank you so much for joining us
• 1:25:21
  on the field podcast today. Finding empowerment, Embracing
• 1:25:26
  Layers. I hope you found today's
• 1:25:28
  framework and resources supportive and informative.
• 1:25:32
  To learn more about all that we offer here at the Embracing
• 1:25:36
  Layers network, visit embracinglayers.com.
• 1:25:40
  You can go to our contact form to schedule me as a speaker for
• 1:25:44
  your next conference, workshop or seminar.
• 1:25:47
  You can go to our book page to order our book, The Jessica
• 1:25:51
  Garrison, our wonderful and talented writer and author
• 1:25:55
  authored with my support and engage with this framework in
• 1:25:59
  written form, with your journal or in a book club with other
• 1:26:03
  women inviting them on this journey with you.
• 1:26:06
  You can look at our resources page for all of the helpful and
• 1:26:10
  insightful resources our guests offer and share.
• 1:26:13
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• 1:26:17
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• 1:26:21
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• 1:26:25
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• 1:26:47
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• 1:26:57
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• 1:27:01
  Layers journey. Take good care and thanks for
• 1:27:04
  giving us some of your valuable time today.
• 1:27:07
  We truly appreciate you so deeply.