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Grief Has No Timeline, So Why Do We Give It Three Days? · Groove with Portia

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Guru Portia, the podcast that uncovers the hidden
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: treasures within grief. I'm your host, Portia the producer, and
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: I'm inviting you to join me on a transformative journey
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: where we will exchange laughter, of course, the best medicine
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: of them all. Reflect on cherished memories. Remember that time
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: that the little boy grabbed my hand instead of his
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: mother's at the amusement park?
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Yikes.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: And of course, discover gratitude while navigating one of life's
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: hardest challenges, loss. So get ready to grew with me, Portia,
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: the producer. Let's dive in. Hello everyone and welcome back
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: to Grew with Portia. I'm your host Portia Booker and
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: as always don't forget to like, share and subscribe to
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: keep up with all things.
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: Grew with Portia.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: So one of the things that some of you may
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: not know is that after my mom made her transition,
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: I remember just getting in my car and driving to
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: this place called Presque Isles Park in Erie, Pennsylvania. And
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: the entire time that I was driving, I remember the
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: weather elements of reflecting the way that I felt internally.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: The rain came through, you know, rain kind of symbolizes
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: both that turbulence in your life and the cleansing. And
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: also once I made it to the park, I remember
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: the water being just calm and.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Still, right?
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  Speaker 1: When we experience grief and loss throughout all the chaos
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: that comes with our emotions fighting for center stage, there
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: tends to be that leveling, that balance that comes with
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: when we're emotionally aware and also when we are still.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: So today I have the opportunity to be joined by
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: an individual who is no stranger to the healing properties
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: of nature. She is the author of the book, The
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Nature Codes, Healing Grief Through Nature's Energy and Reclaiming Joy.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: So without further delay, welcome to Guru of Portia, Ms.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Kelly Thunder Davis. Kelly, how are you today?
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: I'm doing well, Portia. Thank you for having me.
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: Kelly, it's an honor.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: I know from the very first time that we talked,
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I just love what you're about. And I
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: don't know too many people who have that level of
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: awareness and openness to the healing components within nature when
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: we experience a loss or a transition. And Kelly, one
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  Speaker 1: of the things that I know about you is that
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: you spent two decades teaching meditation, mindfulness, and stress management.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: And then also you experience your own transitions in your
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: life of four key people close to you. And I'm
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: curious for our audience, Kelly, was there a moment when
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: you realized that I know all of these tools that
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: I've been teaching for decades to other people, but I
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: also know that I'm not okay?
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's a great question. Thank you so much
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: for positioning that. You know what I've realized is that
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: life is a yoga mat. Life is your yoga mat. Okay,
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: you're good. And that's what came. That's what's really what
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: became for me is like I was actually experiencing a
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: lot of the things that I would see my students experience.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: You know, I experienced 9-11. I had a lot of
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: students in my class. that lost loved ones and I've
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: seen loss on the yoga mat. But here I was
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: living as a yoga instructor, experiencing what I saw my
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: students experience. And also not just as a students, but
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: me being the student. We are constantly on the yoga
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: mat and classroom of life. And I believe that it
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: doesn't matter if you're a yoga teacher or who you are.
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: Life wants to teach you something. It wants to bring
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: you to where it needs to bring you. Everyone is
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: open for growth. The store is open for growth. But
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: it did open my world. It opened my spiritual experience
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: as a human being, as a yoga instructor. It made
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: me deeper, find out more about my Native American culture
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: and what that entailed around loss and grief and the
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: beauty of nature and how she supports us. I, you
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  Speaker 2: will hear me speak of nature as she, so it's
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: just so you understand that I use her as a
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: feminine energy. Um, so, but yeah, I hope, yeah. So
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  Speaker 2: in that way, yes.
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: That's all right, Kelly.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, it reminds me of the song by Ariana
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  Speaker 1: Grande where she said, God is a woman, right? I mean,
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: you know, you believe what you, what you want to believe,
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: but we both know that women have the ability to procreate, right?
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: We create life, we can destroy it, we can bring
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: it into the world, right? And I love Kelly B
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  Speaker 1: analogy that life is a yoga mat because I think
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: of all the different yoga positions, whether you're in downward
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: dog or you're kind of sitting still. And I think
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: about Kelly too, how the yoga mat analogy really correlates
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: with grief because sometimes you are moving, but also you're
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: frozen simultaneously. And I'm curious, Kelly, what did functioning- look
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: like for you during that period? And did your ability
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: to keep going make it harder for you or the
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: people around you to recognize how much you were grieving?
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: Okay, so just to give the audience just the context
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: of how it all kind of unfolded for me was,
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: my mom was really basically dying at the time that
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: everything started to really kind of unfold. And so I
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: was kind of distracted with her Her process, to be
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: honest with you. And then came my friend Susan and
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: then came Tim and then came Chris, my dear love,
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: who prematurely died at the age of 52. So with
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: all of that happening, my mom attending to her needs
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: and being in that anticipatory grief state, you know, like
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: I knew she was going to pass. I just didn't
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  Speaker 2: know when. And then, you know, the compoundedness of it. um,
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  Speaker 2: I think really, um, distracted me too. And in many ways, um,
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  Speaker 2: as things were happening, when each death happened, it was
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  Speaker 2: sort of like, okay, let me put this away for now.
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  Speaker 2: Let me put this away. I still have to deal
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: with mom because mom was the last and final blow.
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  Speaker 2: Hers was the last and final icing. I call it
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: in the book, the icing on the cake, the icing
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: on the grief cake. So, so I didn't really deal
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: with any of those griefs, like all of that processing,
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: because I still had to deal with mom and had
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: to deal with getting her situated. And so I distracted,
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: which I think a lot of us do. Well, not,
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: I can't speak for everybody. Again, everybody's grief process is different,
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: but we do all share the same pain in the
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: heart with that. But yeah, I was distracted and it
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  Speaker 2: was just something that I just put aside and I
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: had stopped teaching yoga for Uh, cause I just didn't
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  Speaker 2: feel like I had, uh, it to really in me
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: to really stay focused and to really give it my
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: all because I was just like really dealing with mom
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: and a lot in that process. And then, like I said, um,
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: Chris came into my life actually, and he was only
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: in my life for six months, only six months. So
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  Speaker 2: he was sort of like, he was sort of like the, um,
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  Speaker 2: the cherry in my life at that time when mom
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: was passing, uh, and getting, you know, and ill and
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: all that. But But yeah, so I don't, yeah. So
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  Speaker 2: I think that answers your question, but yeah, I just
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  Speaker 2: sort of just, just kind of just, you know, swim
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: through it and just try to keep afloat. Yeah.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: Well, Kelly, I'm glad to lots of love to you.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, the, the transition of your mom, I mean, that,
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  Speaker 1: Losing a parent is hard. I don't care what age
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  Speaker 1: it is. It is hard. For me, this is year
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: four for my mom and year three for my dad.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: So lots of love your way. And you brought up too, Kelly,
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  Speaker 1: something that a lot of people don't talk about, which
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: is that cumulative grief. you've had four key people in
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: a short period of time. And you kind of really
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: hit the nail on the head about how can I
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  Speaker 1: really grieve one of these separately when they've all hit
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  Speaker 1: me at the same time?
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And I think that made my experience a little unique
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  Speaker 2: because usually you have a little spacing. I had some spacing.
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  Speaker 2: It was like six months ago. a year, but, um,
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  Speaker 2: but yeah, I think that for, to have it all
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  Speaker 2: so close makes it, um, sometimes harder for people to digest, um, and,
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  Speaker 2: and go through the process they need to process because each,
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: each passing, each person's passing requires attention. It requires reflection.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: It requires, um, who was Susan to me? Oh God.
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  Speaker 2: I remember when we did this. I remember when we
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: did that. Oh, Oh, and what she used to call
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: me by this name. Oh, she was hip, blah, blah, blah.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, there was a process for each person. So
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  Speaker 2: when that process is sort of like still lingering, before
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: the other process, so you, you know, it just, it
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: gets backed up, but yeah, each, each person's passing requires
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: a pause. It really does require a pause and for how,
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: for however long, but it does require that reflection. Yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And it's hard because you, you obviously you want to
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  Speaker 1: reflect with them, but they're not physically there to reminisce about, okay,
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  Speaker 1: you and Susan going on a joy ride across.
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  Speaker 3: The, you know, the bridge.
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  Speaker 1: And then, you know, let's say if you saw somebody
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  Speaker 1: getting married and, you know, the bride's wig came off
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  Speaker 1: and landed on your heart type of thing.
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  Speaker 3: Exactly. And I think that's also to Kelly, the, the
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  Speaker 3: beauty in the grief journey.
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  Speaker 1: Once you reach that point where you're able to hold
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  Speaker 1: space for both the sadness and the joy simultaneously.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly. Exactly. And that process. And that's why I put
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: in the title of my book, Reclaiming Joy as a
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  Speaker 2: part of the subtitle is because it's the reclaiming that's
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  Speaker 2: the process. The reclaiming is the process itself. And that's
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  Speaker 2: what was my journey. My journey was about reclaiming the joy. Yes, yes,
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  Speaker 2: this happened. Yes, this happens in life. Nature is like, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: people are going to die. Yep. But you're going to
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  Speaker 2: reclaim your joy. This is the process. That process is
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  Speaker 2: a part of the grief journey.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: And Kelly, before we pivot to the next part of
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: the conversation about your book and your nature journey, for
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: our audience who's tuning in, if they want to connect
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: with you, if they want to get a copy of
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: the book, The Nature Codes, Healing Through Nature's Energy and
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: Reclaiming Joy, if you have upcoming speaking events, please let
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: our audience know how they can connect with you. Oh, sure.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: Yes, everybody. You can actually purchase The Nature Codes on Amazon,
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: of course, just by its title, The Nature Codes. I
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: was luckily able to get that. But yeah, thenaturecodes.com to
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: my website directly, kellydavis.com. And that's Kelly with an E, Y-E, davis.com.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: I have an event coming up in November. We're planning,
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: I think it's November. And it's going to be, I
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: integrated The Nature Codes into a restorative yoga routine. So
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: it's for people that are like going through grief, especially
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: during the holidays where They want to come and just
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: release and just get into their own energy and their
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: own peace by using the nature codes. You'll find what
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: the nature codes are when you go to the book.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: But it's going to be a wonderful three-week series. But
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: if you go to my website, you'll be able to
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: check it out and see what it involves. It's going
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: to be online too, virtually. Oh, cool.
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: A hybrid.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: So for our audience who's tuning in, you can obviously
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: look up the book on Amazon, The Nature Codes. You
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: can also probably do a Google search of Kelly Thunder Davis. Also,
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: if you don't remember who's hosting this podcast or anything
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: that we talked about, you can always ask AI what
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: is going on here. Kelly, for our audience, let's talk
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: about your journey now that you've experienced those four transitions
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: in your life. You got this call to go into nature.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: And I brought this up in the very beginning when
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: I took that drive. Actually, it was in November the
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: same year that my mom died. The weather was nice
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: and I just drove. And the entire time I remember
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: just bawling my eyes out on the entire. I mean,
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: I almost needed my own windshield wipers for my eyes.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: I'm not kidding because it was it was just coming out.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: And nature was reflecting that in the rain, wasn't she?
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  Speaker 3: Yes. That's what I mentioned.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: The elements were a reflection of exactly how I felt
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: internally and what was coming out physically. And I'm curious, Kelly,
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: for our audience. when you were in nature during that time,
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: what were you able to access emotionally and spiritually that
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: you hadn't been able to reach through your meditation and
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: mindfulness practices that you already knew?
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Well, it's, Oh, that's such a beautiful question. So, you know,
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: it was meditation that led me into, to, you know,
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: I got the idea of the inclination to go into
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: nature when I was meditating one morning. Um, my meditations
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: hadn't been that deep, but I always, you know, I've
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: been a meditator for over 25 years, nearly 30 years.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: So no matter what, I would force myself to go sit,
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: even if it wasn't for a long amount of time.
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  Speaker 2: But one morning I heard very distinctly go be in nature.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: And that's how it all began to unfold for me.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: So it was actually meditation that led me into nature
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: in a subtle way. And because it wanted to take
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: me deeper because I wasn't getting deeper and I felt,
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: you know, at the time with the reflection and bringing
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: the yoga principles in it and the Native American spirituality
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: into it, I can now see what the goddess, God,
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: the power was doing. It was like, let's get her
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: into nature, let her process. And let her learn something,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: you know, basically. So that's what it did. And so
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: it was really, once I was there, the silence in
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: nature really became my teacher, the silence. And it was
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: there that, you know, and I talk about how I
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: got there and where I went and all that. But
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: one of the places was in the desert. And on
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: this beautiful piece of land, this ancient piece of land,
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: known the Senegal people were there for thousands of years before,
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: you know, Europeans came. But this land was just so
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: fertile with energy. And it was there that I really
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: began to just say, okay, I'm here. What's going on here?
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: And I just began to have days filled with information
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: of energy. It's no way that it wasn't even... because
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: silence was speaking. So it was sort of like, it
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: took about two days to thaw out. I'll be honest
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: with you. It's like, my mind is like, what am
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: I doing here? I'm guided here. I talk about that
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: in the book too, more specifically, but here I was
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: in this beautiful place. I was safe. I felt safe. And,
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: but it was, it was that silence, the energy within
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: silence that began to put me in flow. And that
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: it's yeah.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: I can relate to that, Kelly, because you think, am
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: I going crazy? Did I just hear what I thought
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: I just heard? And I had the same thing happen
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: to me. I want to say it was seven months
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: after my mom had transitioned. I was on a retreat
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: in Florida and I had went to the beach. We
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: were in West Palm Beach. And I remember one of
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: the facilitators who was with us had said to me, Portia,
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: go and go take a walk along the beach and
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: connect with your mom.
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: And I did.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, it was the most intimate, yet also most
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: direct communication I felt that I had with her since
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: she had transitioned. Because I asked her a few specific
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: questions and I could just hear, and there were people
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: walking around there because it was you know, like evening time.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: So people are still hanging out at the beach at night,
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: you know, listen to the waves or if there's drone
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: shows or fireworks and that.
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: But I could hear it clear as day.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: And, you know, Kelly, it makes me think in our society,
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: there tends to be this, what I like to call
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: this expectation versus reality when it comes to grief. And
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: what I mean by that is nature itself doesn't follow
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: a timeline the way that we as humans tend to
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: put one on things. And I'm curious, do you think
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: that part of our struggle with grief as humans is
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: that we want to put a timeline on something that
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: doesn't naturally operate according to one?
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: I do.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: I think everybody's grief period is, like I said, everybody
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: has their own unique grief experience and process. Some people
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: are going to be stuck in certain places than others.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: I'm not a grief expert. I don't pretend to be,
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: but I do believe that everybody comes to a place
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: where they have to, again, reflect. I think I'm answering
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: your question. I'm not too sure. But I'm just trying
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: to get more clear on what I want to say here.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: Can you just rephrase that again? I'm sorry.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: Think about it from this angle, Kelly. Think about how
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: in nature we have the seasons, right? During fall seasons,
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: the leaves fall off. Some trees die. They don't come
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: back in the springtime, right? But nature still moves on
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: its course.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Whereas us as humans, we tend to want to put
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: a timeline on our grief when we experience the loss
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: of whether it's a parent, a spouse, a sibling.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I can't really put a timeline on it
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: because everyone's going to always feel that ping in the
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: heart for that loved one. I mean, it doesn't go away.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: I just think nature just ushers us along as if
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: to say it's going to be okay. It's going to be,
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: for me, it was sort of like lean on me.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: And I felt like I was leaning on nature while
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: she was giving me really deep observations in places really
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: spiritually that I had never even thought about, about like
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: getting really in-depth um, inspirations and wow, like that. Ooh, really?
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: You know? So, but I think the timeline is everyone's different.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: You can't put a timeline on your grieving process. I
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: think it takes its own time and, um, and it's
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: a holy time in the native American tradition. Oglala Sioux
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: believe that a grieving person is considered holy during their
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: grieving process. And the reason why is because they're the
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: closest to God at that time. Um, because when you're grieving,
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: God comes in to protect the heart and to guide. And, um,
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: so you really just have to be with, be with
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: the energy and just allow, but to be open and
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: to be open and to process. That's what I loved about, um,
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: some of the things that came across my path with,
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: with in the nature codes and some of the medicines
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: is that, um, It does ask us to move on.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: It does ask us, yes, process, process. Keep moving, though. Yeah, process.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: Keep moving. Enjoy life. Reclaim the joy. Keep moving. You're
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: going to still keep moving. And I think people do
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: get stuck in their grief. And that becomes a real
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: big issue because then that becomes a trauma that they
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: can't escape.
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: Well, and that could be a whole nother conversation for
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: a whole different day about people stuck in their grief
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: and a big, if you want to call it, proponent
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: of that is society's response to grief.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: Oh, yes.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: Where, you know, as me and you both know in
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: different entities, let's look at the bereavement policies, for example.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Every entity has their own bereavement policy where some, it
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: gives you three days to where others, you have to
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: use your own sick time.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: So again, that's why I wanted to touch on this
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: because I think so many people, we say that grief
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: has no timeline, but how do you reinforce that in
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: a society that tells you you only get three days
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: off after your kid was blown to smithereens in war, right?
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: So just putting it bluntly.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And that too is a real issue in our
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: society because we deal with grief like it's business too. Oh, okay.
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: So someone died. Okay. Where are we going to have
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: the repass at? And who's going to drive in the
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: limousine and who's restaurant, you know, it becomes, you know,
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: what color is the casket? It becomes this business as usual.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: And that's a very, that's unfortunately we live in a
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: culture that's capitalistic and that capitalism says, it's no time
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: to rest. It's no time to grieve. You got to keep,
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: keep it moving and buying. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: in the culture. Yeah.
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: And especially here in the Western, it's.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: Very- The Western is the worst. I'm sorry.
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: I mean, other places.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: I remember there was a, I run grief groups from
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: time to time, Kelly, and one of my participants who
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: was from another country said that they didn't understand when
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: they came to the United States, why our end of life,
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: if you want to call it ceremonies, are so outrageous.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: When she said where she's from, the government issues, the,
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: the bereaved family money, you know, people around them come
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: together in community to mourn, you know, they know that
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: this family has experienced a loss and they all come
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: together together where it seems that as we just kind
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: of alluded to here in the Western culture, it's back
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: to business as usual. You get three days off to
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: plan everything and, If there's a state stuff, you have
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: to clean out the person's house, wrap up any other
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: loose ends, all the above. Where the holiness of it,
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: no pun intended, has been filled with back to the
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: regular code of business. Where in other places, grief is
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: honored and respected. Yeah.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: And also, look at what happened with COVID. Yeah. I mean,
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: they just like, people walk like that never happened. And
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: there's no monument, nothing that says in America that says,
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: not that I know of, I stand to be corrected,
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: that says we lost over a million people.
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: To a disease. I mean, it's like we've swept it
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: underneath the rug and we're just forced to keep moving forward.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, where other places honor different.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: Other places honor, other cultures honor.
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: The tragedies that affect a mass amount of people. Kelly,
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: moving forward. So let's talk about your book, The Nature Codes.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Yes. Right.
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: Your book, I brought up the title.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: I'm curious for our audience, for you, what exactly is
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: a nature code?
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: A nature code is just energy and nature reflected back
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: to the heart. It's nature speaking to the heart where
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: we grieve, you know, it's just, it's, it's, it's, it's saying,
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: saying I'm with you. I keep saying like, cause I
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: feel nature's just so intimate with us. We just don't
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: pay attention because she's always trying to get our attention.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: But the nature codes are really energies that speak to
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: the heart, to the heart that needs healing and, and,
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: and support. And beauty and, you know, and life force
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: to help it. And yeah.
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: And I think you really hit the nail on the
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: head too about it. It's intimate because both of our
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: experiences in nature, we got different signs.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: And I want to talk about one in your book.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: You write about a morning cloak butterfly.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: And I am a big, I have a butterfly tattoo
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: on my arm. You can't really see it, but I
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: have one on my arm. in honor of my mom.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: And I have a half butterfly wing and half lung
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: on the other side, because my mom had an interstitial
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: lung condition that was progressive. But I know about mourning
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: cloaks because I've had them come to me. I actually
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: had one come to me earlier this year. And I
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: know mourning cloaks tend to symbolize deep transformation. Now, in
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: your book, you kind of describe this you know encounter
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: with the morning cloak is its ability to appear lifeless
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: right and then seemingly return to life as a reminder
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: that transformation is constantly happening around us and within us
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: and i'm curious kelly how did encounters like this with
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: the morning cloak change the way you understood your own
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: grief and the transformation that was happening within you well.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: Um after I realized the meaning behind it and the
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: dramatic way that it came to me, I realized that life,
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: you know, I just felt like, you know, here I
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: was transforming before just having this experience. And it just
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: spoke to me in such a dramatic way because the way,
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: how I encountered it, it was just, lying there on
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: the ground. And I thought it was dead. I says, oh,
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: dead butterfly. Oh, poor thing. I turn around to sit down.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: That butterfly is up in the air flying. It landed
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: on a plant above me because I was at this
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: little cafe near the creek. And I said, oh my goodness.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: I immediately thought of my mother. Immediately. Immediately. Cause she
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: loved plants and it was, it's just the whole energy
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: of it. And it just spoke to how in an
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: instant things can happen. And that's how transformation is. Transformation,
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: you don't even, you don't can't see transformation. You know,
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: it's something that just happens. Right. And, um, But it
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: spoke so much, it's like here you had something that
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: was dead, supposedly dead, and then what really is dead?
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: Then you have to think about that, like really what dies?
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: So you have this whole theatrical theater happening. And so
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: it really just, for me, it just shows that transformation
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: can happen at any time. Transformation is a part of life.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: It just read of transformation for me in so many levels, yeah.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: Kelly, I have a similar experience. So after my dad
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: transitioned in April of 23, my dad's actual, so my
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: dad used to be a performer. My dad's stage name
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: was Butterfly. For those of you who are here in
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: Cleveland and know the stage name, Butterfly, that is my dad,
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: Charles Booker. And one of the interesting parts in the
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: back of his obituary is that we had a poem
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: called Black Butterfly.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: I remember that song, Black Butterfly, with Chaka Khan saying that.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: So- I was walking around the block because I take
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: lots of walks with my dog, Mr.
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: Fletcher.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: And I remember, like you, I see this black swallowtail
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: butterfly on the ground and I'm like oh it died
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: because it was laying out like this So I go
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: to pick it up and it starts hopping in my hand.
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, oh, man, okay, you're alive.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: I really wanted to see you.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: So I took it home. I made it a little
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: house on my front porch. Well, it did end up
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: passing away. It did because its wing was broken.
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: So what I did, Kelly, I actually framed it. I
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: do have that black swallowtail butterfly in a frame today.
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: That's your totem.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: Native Americans would say that's your totem.
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: I have several.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: I have several butterflies that I've found over the last
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: couple of years since both my parents have transitioned. I
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: found a yellow swallowtail wing. I found a three fourths
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: of a monarch. I have several that I've put in
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: frames that I found.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: Kelly.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: Kelly. This has been a great conversation. I thank you
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: so much again for coming on to the show. I
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: have one last question for you before we conclude for today.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: After losing four key people who made a big impact
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: on your life and also all the work that you're
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: currently doing now that you have your new book out,
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: I'm curious for our audience, Kelly, what does finding your.
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: Groove mean to you today?
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Finding my groove.
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: Yes. Finding your groove.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: My groove. My groove is about flow and letting things
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: flow and be. And we never know what's going to
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: happen really the next moment. Who's going to pass away?
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: You know, who's going to maybe, you know, call you
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: the next moment. But just whole idea of grooving in
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: the flow.
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: And knowing that I can go out into nature and
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: she's going to be with me and she's going to
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: show me something and she's going to always be there to,
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: to guide me. So, but I would say grooving with flow.
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: Let it flow.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: That's a, it's a good song by Tony Braxton. It
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: was one of my favorites as a kid.
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: Let it flow. Let it flow.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Let it flow.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: Well, everybody, that was Kelly Thunder Davis that you heard
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: from today on Google Portia. And that concludes our conversation.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: And until next time, everybody, peace and hair grease, everyone.