Latest / Not All Business / Dating Apps, Dress Codes, & Firing People (Casual Friday Sticky Situations)

Transcript

Dating Apps, Dress Codes, & Firing People (Casual Friday Sticky Situations) · Not All Business

• 0:00
  What if your next job was 1 swipe away on Tinder?
• 0:03
  Seriously. Apparently 1/3 of people on
• 0:06
  dating apps are swiping for job referrals, not romance.
• 0:09
  And we have some thoughts. This week it's Casual Friday,
• 0:13
  which me and I showed up in Carhartt, which Clay would like
• 0:15
  everyone to know is absolutely not bougie.
• 0:19
  It is. And Heather is threatening to
• 0:21
  wear a bikini top. And we're getting into workplace
• 0:24
  questions that everyone's thinking but no one's asking out
• 0:28
  loud. Like are dress codes still thing
• 0:30
  and what do they actually mean when your body doesn't fit the
• 0:33
  template? And if firing sends you to the
• 0:35
  ER, are you actually management material?
• 0:39
  You are welcome to Not All business.
• 0:42
  A podcast by two former CEO's who went from competitors to
• 0:45
  friends. I'm Blakely Graham and my Co
• 0:47
  host is Heather Cooper and we're joined by our producer Clay
• 0:51
  Cornell. Now let's get down to business.
• 1:00
  Welcome back to Casual Friday. Look, this is about as casual as
• 1:03
  I get. I'm wearing Carhartt for clay.
• 1:05
  Are you really? Oh, that's the best look at.
• 1:08
  Look at that. That's very bougie of you.
• 1:12
  Very. Nice, my son bought this for me
• 1:14
  for Christmas. I'm sorry because he works at
• 1:16
  the hardware. Store Carhartt is bougie.
• 1:21
  Oh you want to know how bougie Carhartt is?
• 1:24
  I bought Lula for Christmas. A beautiful like red scarf from
• 1:30
  Carhartt's like bougie work in progress brand.
• 1:34
  Like they have an up. Level.
• 1:36
  First of all, bougie too liberally being used right now.
• 1:39
  What does bougie mean? What does that mean?
• 1:42
  I don't know, it's like. Fancy.
• 1:44
  Stylish. Trendy.
• 1:46
  Too. OK, I thought it meant like
• 1:48
  expensive and luxurious. It's.
• 1:52
  Also true. Also true, the work in progress
• 1:55
  line is those. Things.
• 1:56
  It's not luxurious. It is not luxurious.
• 2:00
  It's like super on trend. Yes, that's true.
• 2:04
  OK, I've cut you off enough. Please continue.
• 2:06
  Thank you. I'm.
• 2:07
  What? OK, it's casual Friday.
• 2:09
  I'm wearing Carhartt. You're next, Heather.
• 2:12
  But you guys, I have the craziest headline I want to
• 2:16
  share with you. Let's hear it.
• 2:18
  OK, OK, let me just like summarize.
• 2:21
  People are using dating apps to network to get jobs like this is
• 2:27
  a thing now. So this is a yes.
• 2:30
  It's there's a Bloomberg article that says tough job market has
• 2:36
  people using dating apps to get interviews.
• 2:38
  And I follow this really cool sub stack writer.
• 2:42
  I highly recommend her for anyone who's like my age, kind
• 2:46
  of Gen. X that has Gen.
• 2:47
  Z kids, because every year she watches all that.
• 2:52
  She's a millennial and she watches all the you are not
• 2:55
  YouTube TikTok videos of like kids unboxing their gifts.
• 2:59
  And she like comes up with a list of all the things like Gen.
• 3:02
  Z really wants for Christmas. And when I like follow her list,
• 3:06
  I like nail it every time. So her her sub stack is called
• 3:09
  after school by Casey Lewis. She's super popular.
• 3:12
  She's awesome, but she wrote this and I'm just going to read
• 3:15
  it to you because I think this is insane.
• 3:17
  About 1/3 of dating app users are swiping for job
• 3:20
  opportunities rather than romance. 2/3 say they're
• 3:24
  targeting people who work at desirable employers and three
• 3:27
  quarters match with people and roles they want.
• 3:31
  They are using Hinge to connect with people for job referrals.
• 3:35
  I mean, I'm not joking like this one woman, Tiffany Chow says.
• 3:40
  I feel like my approach to the dating apps is it being another
• 3:43
  networking platform like everything else, like Instagram
• 3:46
  or LinkedIn. First of all, Instagram for
• 3:49
  networking. I'm so confused.
• 3:51
  Do the people, does the guy on Hinge work for the company that
• 3:54
  you want to get into? So you're you're pretending to
• 3:57
  match to go on a date to say, hey, where do you work?
• 4:00
  And like, oh, that is creepy. Yes, I think.
• 4:04
  Really creepy and also the poor guy or like really hot girl that
• 4:08
  swipes right or left. I never, I don't know which is
• 4:11
  the right way and then he gets excited and then it's just a
• 4:14
  ploy to get into his organization.
• 4:17
  Well, maybe he doesn't care. Hang on a second, think of maybe
• 4:21
  because I see it the same way that you see, but maybe if the
• 4:25
  app is not to find love, but it actually is more of a casual
• 4:30
  situation. Like think of it like a mixer or
• 4:33
  like a networking event. Obviously it's branded as like
• 4:37
  Tinder is like the hook up app for what I know there.
• 4:40
  Should just be another app called Mixer then and then it's
• 4:42
  for business networking but that's what.
• 4:45
  LinkedIn is everybody lame would go to mixer, everybody lame
• 4:48
  would go there. You know what I'm saying?
• 4:51
  Like every. Like the Facebook of Yeah, OK.
• 4:55
  Maybe people are treating it more casually, like they're not.
• 4:59
  Like you show up to Tinder and it's like, hey, choose your own
• 5:02
  adventure. It's not branded the same way
• 5:04
  for everybody. I don't know.
• 5:07
  Yeah, I I agree. I think I was really put off at
• 5:11
  it at first because I would. Never think you know you're
• 5:15
  swiping left and yeah. I just the whole idea of it was,
• 5:21
  but the whole idea of using social media for anything
• 5:24
  usually is sometimes to me. And so where it kind of started
• 5:27
  to make sense is like, OK, I think it's actually kind of
• 5:29
  crafty these I could I could have sat here and read you
• 5:34
  another headline showing how hard it is right now for college
• 5:38
  grads to get jobs. It is worse than it's ever.
• 5:42
  I'm not going to say that, I don't know if that's true, but
• 5:43
  it's really, really bad for college grads And so.
• 5:46
  They're they're. Going to the platforms they know
• 5:50
  that they're already on and they know how to use.
• 5:52
  I don't they probably don't even know how to network on LinkedIn.
• 5:56
  And then I really clicked in it for me as we are doing a college
• 6:00
  tour this weekend. And I when I went to college,
• 6:06
  when you guys went to college, I maybe I don't know about you,
• 6:08
  Clay, but you signed up for your housing and you like, I am
• 6:12
  messy. I like pizza.
• 6:15
  And you got like paired with someone.
• 6:17
  Now they create these, like, shadow accounts on Instagram
• 6:22
  saying like CSU 2026 and everyone posts their senior
• 6:27
  photos and kind of their like, sexy photos or their athletic
• 6:31
  photos. And then they start deeming each
• 6:34
  other, I mean, like trying to like, get to know each other.
• 6:36
  And it's a whole, it's what you just said, Clay.
• 6:38
  It's like this whole mixer thing and they're brokering these
• 6:41
  things and literally we are flying home from this college
• 6:46
  and I was like, are you on these accounts?
• 6:48
  It's like, oh, yeah, I already invited this guy to be a drummer
• 6:50
  in my band. This is my son saying this to
• 6:52
  me. I'm like, what?
• 6:54
  That is what I think is happening with this networking
• 6:57
  thing. They are using it to find common
• 7:01
  interests and that common interest is just an employer.
• 7:07
  So that's my soapbox for the table.
• 7:09
  Hope it made sense. But OK, I still, it sounded like
• 7:13
  you were saying they're going on Hinge to catfish someone.
• 7:19
  So that's where I'm like, I wouldn't even want to hire that
• 7:21
  person anyway because that's a really lack of integrity to only
• 7:24
  do that. If you're going to be upfront
• 7:25
  about it, then absolutely. That's just another networking
• 7:28
  tool. But then but it's that's where
• 7:31
  I'm trying to understand the difference.
• 7:32
  Does the guy know that this is about networking for a job, or
• 7:36
  does he think that he's got a a hot one on the hook?
• 7:39
  Why couldn't it be both like? Because 1 you get something at
• 7:45
  the end and 1 you get a handshake and a nice to meet
• 7:48
  you. Like I've never been on these,
• 7:51
  but I'm I heard there's expectations there's like I.
• 7:55
  I can't make the assumptions here.
• 7:57
  I I'm not sure. I'm not sure if it's maybe it is
• 8:03
  more like I'm looking for friends.
• 8:06
  I'm going to try it out. Why?
• 8:07
  I mean, the only way that we're going to know this is if we just
• 8:09
  dig in, right? I mean, let's.
• 8:12
  Test it out. We're not, obviously.
• 8:14
  I'm not, but you are. Because you have nothing to
• 8:17
  lose. You're not.
• 8:18
  I mean, you're work. You're not.
• 8:19
  Working I have a husband. But this is a job referral app.
• 8:24
  Frankly, that's the whole. Point yes, it's a job referral
• 8:28
  app, so you've got to go in undercover and let's play this
• 8:31
  out. I actually think maybe we could
• 8:34
  just bring a Gen. Z on to talk us through, like
• 8:37
  why It's not creepy because there's a whole different
• 8:41
  language out there. Boring, but.
• 8:43
  I, I thought it was actually crafty and yet kind of gross.
• 8:48
  I get it. But there's something to be said
• 8:50
  for it by using, putting people in the market are the tools that
• 8:56
  they already are using, right? Sure, clever.
• 8:59
  You said something really interesting, Blakely, which is
• 9:02
  let's bring on a Gen. ZR to find out why.
• 9:04
  It's why it's not creepy. And I actually think we would
• 9:08
  probably more quickly get that get a sticky situation written
• 9:14
  in that it is creepy and to help me figure this out, so.
• 9:19
  Yeah I agree they got stuck on a bad date with a creepy person
• 9:23
  and when they all they wanted was like an intro to IBM.
• 9:26
  Yeah, totally, 100%. But Speaking of sticky
• 9:31
  situations, let's actually get to some sticky situations that
• 9:33
  we could speak to. I've got a few listed here, and
• 9:36
  then I'd like to go and do something that we're calling
• 9:41
  Rapid Fire, which I'll explain that game when we get to it, but
• 9:48
  stick around because it's going to be fun.
• 9:50
  Torture Blakely game. It's going to be a competition
• 9:53
  between the two of you, 2 of you.
• 9:54
  But before we get there, let's get into some sticky situations.
• 9:57
  Can I begin? Go, go #1 let's have all.
• 10:01
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• 10:08
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• 11:00
  podcasts. We're going to start with one
• 11:05
  that's perfect for casual Friday.
• 11:07
  I'm ready. I do also want to know this one.
• 11:12
  Here we go. Can someone please explain what
• 11:15
  business casual actually means? My office dress code says
• 11:21
  business casual, but I see people in jeans and people in
• 11:24
  full suits. I'm curvy and anything even
• 11:28
  slightly fitted gets comments from someone.
• 11:30
  Last week I wore yeah last week I wore AV neck sweater nothing
• 11:35
  crazy. And someone said my outfit was
• 11:38
  quote UN quote a lot. What does that even mean?
• 11:42
  Weird. How much can How much can I
• 11:44
  show? Are open toed shoes
• 11:47
  professional? I'm spending more time thinking
• 11:49
  about my clothes than my actual work.
• 11:52
  What are the rules? All right, so let's start at the
• 11:55
  beginning. What does business casual
• 11:58
  actually mean? I don't think that's the
• 12:00
  question. I know it's that it was the
• 12:03
  question, but I think the question is how much skin can I
• 12:05
  show, right? Like how much skin can I show?
• 12:08
  And I'll tell you as a 36 double D and when I put on a little
• 12:15
  weight in stressful situations, it can be a triple that this is
• 12:20
  plagued me my entire life. So much so that in middle school
• 12:25
  I started hunching my shoulders. And This is why I have such bad
• 12:28
  pastures because. Forever I got a big rack.
• 12:32
  And it's embarrassing. Poor Blakely, I never understood
• 12:36
  this. All of you ladies that have this
• 12:38
  quote problem, I have a. Slipped disc because of it.
• 12:45
  Because of like this hunchback. No flipping joke Because of my
• 12:50
  stupid like boobs. Are you serious?
• 12:53
  Yeah, girl. It is terrible.
• 12:55
  And it's especially terrible in the workplace because nothing
• 12:59
  ever looks good. I mean, I can't get everything
• 13:00
  to fit. So like you see me in a crew
• 13:02
  neck now. And I was kind of raised in this
• 13:05
  time where you just don't show any skin.
• 13:07
  And it made outfits really challenging, especially for like
• 13:11
  curvy women. And now we have like, this
• 13:13
  younger generation coming up and, and they're wearing like
• 13:17
  bandanas for tops. And it's totally socially
• 13:19
  acceptable. And it should be.
• 13:21
  They should be able to, like, wear whatever they want.
• 13:25
  But now let's take it back to business casual.
• 13:27
  Like, what do you actually want to do in the workplace?
• 13:29
  And I just think this is a very nuanced question because you're
• 13:36
  damned if you do and you're damned if you don't, right?
• 13:39
  Like there's no easy answer. Yeah, it depends a lot on the
• 13:45
  and where you work. So business casual at a tech
• 13:47
  company looks different than business casual at a law firm.
• 13:51
  It it really goes, it's almost like a scale of what is the most
• 13:57
  dressed up that you would possibly need to be.
• 13:59
  So at a law firm, it's going to be in a suit because you're
• 14:01
  going to court, right? And then there's going to be a
• 14:03
  day where you're just in the office and you're not going to
• 14:04
  court. What does that look like?
• 14:06
  It's usually two or three steps down from the most dressed up
• 14:09
  that you would ever normally be. So that compared to a tech
• 14:12
  company where the maybe the most dressed up you'd ever be is a
• 14:17
  button down with, you know, Lululemon pants or whatever
• 14:22
  those chinos are for guys, right?
• 14:24
  And then then the least would be, you know, is it shorts or no
• 14:27
  shorts about like we always had that problem where guys were
• 14:29
  like, wait, why can't we if the girls could wear skirts, why
• 14:31
  can't we wear shorts? That's like a totally different
• 14:33
  where we drew the line at like beachwear, like business casual
• 14:37
  was just not beachwear. I've never even heard.
• 14:39
  I've never heard that before. That's crazy.
• 14:42
  Well, yeah, it's, it's funny the things that happen about why
• 14:46
  guys can't wear shorts but girls can wear.
• 14:48
  Skirts. I've never heard that before.
• 14:50
  Oh yeah, no, it was a regular, regular fight around around the
• 14:53
  team lunch table. But you know, so it's just in
• 14:56
  the tech company. It was like, OK, business casual
• 14:59
  is just not beachwear, right? So you're depends on the
• 15:03
  environment. But why?
• 15:04
  Like I, my guess my argument is this is going to change.
• 15:06
  It is changed like it started with the airplanes.
• 15:09
  We're not dressing up for airplanes anymore, right?
• 15:11
  We're we're we're encouraged to wear our pyjamas.
• 15:14
  It's changing in the high schools like they are stripping
• 15:17
  out just dress codes because it's discriminatory, right?
• 15:21
  Or sexist or however you want to say like it.
• 15:24
  It's changing and it's changing in the workplace.
• 15:27
  We're starting to see more skin in the younger generation.
• 15:31
  And I don't, I guess my point I was trying to make earlier is I,
• 15:35
  I don't know, that's bad. It has to be somewhat personal
• 15:38
  choice. Now, am I saying I would go wear
• 15:42
  a bandana top in a boardroom? Like absolutely not.
• 15:45
  I wouldn't. But it's nuanced.
• 15:47
  I think if you feel comfortable in it, I don't know that I'm
• 15:51
  going to say not to do it. However, the nuance is you
• 15:56
  always kind of you have to, you have to play the game like you
• 15:58
  just have to. And so if you're in a position
• 16:02
  where you have to get the promotion or have to get the job
• 16:05
  and you don't have the privilege of fighting whether we can show
• 16:09
  skin or not, you're probably not going to show the skin.
• 16:13
  You're going to look to maybe the the female leader you're
• 16:18
  trying to emulate in your industry or in your workplace
• 16:22
  and maybe match to that. And I don't think that's
• 16:26
  necessarily right, but I think that's what you kind of have to
• 16:31
  do to be looked at seriously, unfortunately.
• 16:35
  I thought you were going to say the opposite and I was going to
• 16:38
  be like what? Like sometimes you have to show
• 16:41
  the skin to get the promotion. I was like, play, don't say no,
• 16:44
  no. I thought that's.
• 16:45
  No, you want to. Show less skin like, well, some
• 16:47
  of us don't have much skin to show.
• 16:49
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I don't I don't agree with
• 16:51
  it. I think the last thing I'll say
• 16:53
  before I obviously I'm very passionate about this topic
• 16:56
  because I'm so it's just plagued to me for so long.
• 17:00
  There is a great podcast out with caller Daddy interviewing
• 17:04
  Michelle Obama and I kid you not, she answers this exact same
• 17:08
  question and she trips up and she trips up because she talks
• 17:14
  about how the she talks about the inequality of men versus
• 17:19
  women, like when she was on the campaign tour.
• 17:21
  Here's Barack and he has to step off the plane and his full.
• 17:24
  Suit. Buttoned up and then he has to
• 17:27
  go to elementary school and he takes off his jacket and he
• 17:29
  unbuttons his ties so he could talk to the kids.
• 17:31
  And then he's got a NATO presentation.
• 17:33
  He's just throws a suit back on. Meanwhile, she's with them and
• 17:37
  she has to wear heels coming off the plane, changed to flats and
• 17:41
  pants to go to the school, and then she has to put on a suit
• 17:45
  that is like different different from the dress that she wore
• 17:47
  earlier. And like, I think about that and
• 17:50
  all these different rules. We have that same thing
• 17:53
  happening in the workplace. And I borrow a little bit from
• 17:57
  her answer in that you do what you feel comfortable doing and
• 18:02
  you also know you have to do stuff to play the game to get
• 18:05
  where you need to go personally. And that's who you're going to
• 18:09
  listen to in these situations. And so maybe you dressing up
• 18:13
  more business casual than you want to be dressing up to it.
• 18:17
  It bothers me, but I appreciate the nuance on it.
• 18:21
  Well, and it's interesting too, because women have more
• 18:23
  flexibility with what they wear than men do.
• 18:26
  Men it's, you know, from you look back to the 1920s, right?
• 18:28
  There's variations on the suit or variations on what business
• 18:31
  casual might look like for a man all hovering somewhere between,
• 18:35
  you know, what they wear on a golf course or you know, to the
• 18:38
  office. It's just, there's not a ton of
• 18:40
  variation where women, it's just spanned the decades in so many
• 18:43
  different ways. And the skin piece, you know, I
• 18:47
  remember first year associate at the law firm and we had to wear
• 18:52
  suits every day and it was really hot in my office.
• 18:54
  And so I took off my top blazer and then I had a, it was a
• 18:59
  sleeveless one of those blouses and I got.
• 19:02
  A shell. Shell.
• 19:03
  Yeah, you. Did and I and I got in trouble.
• 19:05
  And then she was like, you, you need to put your jacket back on.
• 19:08
  And I'm like, are you kidding me right now?
• 19:10
  Like I'm in my own office. I'm not even walking around.
• 19:12
  And so it's just very, very strict.
• 19:14
  It wasn't in court. That was Yeah.
• 19:16
  And it. No, that's real.
• 19:17
  It is and so that's higher and and it was a woman too, which
• 19:21
  was kind of like, come on, sister, like what don't you
• 19:24
  understand? Like what?
• 19:25
  It's like 90° in here, right. And so it but it was the
• 19:29
  perception that I was trying to show skin somehow as like a
• 19:35
  young associate in the office or trying to get attention that
• 19:38
  way. There.
• 19:39
  There was that and she's like, you have to be very careful with
• 19:42
  how you're portraying yourself as if somehow I was trying to
• 19:45
  sexualize that and that wasn't even showing any cleavage,
• 19:48
  right. So I think be wise about
• 19:52
  understanding you are not in control of people's perceptions
• 19:57
  about you. They're going to bring their own
• 19:58
  stuff to the table. So you have to decide what makes
• 20:03
  you feel good, what makes you feel powerful and let go of what
• 20:07
  other people think. And I'm not saying to go wear a
• 20:12
  bra and a mid drift to the office.
• 20:15
  I'm saying if that is what? You need to feel that way.
• 20:20
  You have to understand that that is not going to be be received
• 20:23
  and and being willing to let that go.
• 20:25
  So that's the fine line of, you know, owning your own style and
• 20:29
  you be you, Yes. And people are going to have
• 20:33
  their opinions and. That's 100% going.
• 20:35
  To have a consequence to it. So you just have to be prepared
• 20:37
  to receive that consequence one way or the other.
• 20:39
  You're not in control of it. Yeah, all I know.
• 20:42
  Unfortunately. Is that likely?
• 20:43
  I like the jackets you're wearing and I would hire you.
• 20:48
  Because I'm not showing any skin, it's.
• 20:50
  Because it's Carhartt. Yeah, it's not.
• 20:54
  It's not about the skin. Yeah.
• 20:56
  OK, We got one more sticky situation that we're going to
• 20:58
  get into before we get to rapid fire.
• 21:01
  So hang in there, everybody stick around for rapid fire.
• 21:03
  It's going to be crazy. OK, here we go.
• 21:08
  I have to fire someone and I haven't slept in three days.
• 21:13
  I keep replaying the conversation, imagining every
• 21:17
  possible reaction, feeling physically sick.
• 21:21
  What if I didn't give him enough feedback?
• 21:23
  What if I'm wrong about this? What about his family, His
• 21:26
  bills, His house? I know objectively that this is
• 21:30
  the right decision, but every part of me wants to avoid it.
• 21:33
  How do you get through something you know will hurt someone when
• 21:37
  you're the one who has to do it? And should I even be in
• 21:42
  management if I feel like this? It's bad.
• 21:49
  It's so bad. Yes, you should be in management
• 21:52
  because if you didn't feel like this, you aren't human.
• 21:57
  It's like the worst feeling, I don't want to say in the world,
• 22:03
  but it's really it's all hard. I ended up in the emergency room
• 22:11
  the first time I fired someone from my company because I
• 22:15
  thought I was having a heart attack.
• 22:19
  I must be some cold blooded asshole.
• 22:22
  I've never ever felt that bad. A really.
• 22:26
  Yeah, really. Like I'm sad but I'm not OK.
• 22:31
  Like a panic attack or what? I mean, I guess that's probably
• 22:34
  what it was. I had so much anxiety.
• 22:36
  I thought I was having a heart attack and went to the ER.
• 22:39
  And it doesn't, it doesn't get easier for me, like firing
• 22:44
  people because I think through their mortgage, you know, I
• 22:48
  think through their kids, I think through their spouses.
• 22:50
  I think through like, OK, yeah, you made all these like, really
• 22:54
  horrible mistakes. And yet you're not a bad human.
• 22:56
  Like, you just aren't a right fit for the company at this
• 22:59
  time. And I, I don't know, I just want
• 23:02
  to say those feelings are normal.
• 23:04
  But I guess like Heather can't be the only one in leadership
• 23:10
  cutthroat, chopping people left and right.
• 23:14
  But there's got to be some, like, feeling.
• 23:16
  Being set free, Blakely, you have to think about it like
• 23:20
  they're going to a farm. Which?
• 23:23
  They have lots of space to run and yeah, they're going to be
• 23:26
  happily ever after. They're.
• 23:28
  Way for you to do this better. For them, yeah, no, I never,
• 23:33
  ever, ever felt happy or excited for that to happen because it's
• 23:36
  it's it's a very awkward conversation.
• 23:39
  It's very logistical. After you do it, it's like, OK,
• 23:42
  so then next steps are this and they're kind of stunned and you
• 23:47
  know, they're not processing it completely and it's it's
• 23:49
  traumatic. And so honoring that it's
• 23:51
  traumatic, Please, please don't make it about you.
• 23:56
  Please don't make it about you. Please don't say, you know, this
• 24:00
  is hard for me to like I'm having to do like this is such a
• 24:03
  moment that is not about you. So you stick to the facts.
• 24:08
  If it was your decision, you own your decision.
• 24:11
  You can own that It was a difficult decision, but had to
• 24:13
  be made. And you keep it short and sweet.
• 24:16
  And then you go, you know, cry yourself to sleep on your huge
• 24:19
  pillow. And then they do the same.
• 24:21
  And you kind of work through it in your own way.
• 24:23
  But in that moment, you need to be strong.
• 24:26
  You need to be a leader. You need to give them the
• 24:28
  information in the most kind and efficient way possible.
• 24:32
  And off you go and off they go. And it's just another step on
• 24:38
  both of your journeys. But the longer you stay in the
• 24:40
  conversation, the worse it gets. You are not their counselor.
• 24:46
  You get to the point and get in and get out.
• 24:50
  Yeah, and there's like some legal HR reasoning behind all
• 24:54
  that too. And that is something that took
• 24:55
  me a while to learn. But I, I, I emphasize what
• 25:00
  Heather said, that would be the one big take away is it is a
• 25:04
  short and sweet. It is facts.
• 25:07
  You can have kindness in your tone, but less is more.
• 25:11
  Talk less. Yes.
• 25:16
  Talk less and get it done. Yep, you'll feel better and they
• 25:19
  will have the freedom to move on with their lives as well.
• 25:23
  Yep, and every time you have to do that is learning.
• 25:26
  Why was that person hired? Why didn't it work out?
• 25:28
  Could we have made a better decision?
• 25:29
  Could we have budgeted better? You, you learn and you take
• 25:32
  responsibility every single time that happens because it's rarely
• 25:35
  just on the employee. There's always kind of a two way
• 25:37
  St. of why things don't work out.
• 25:39
  So own it. Do better next time in hiring.
• 25:42
  Let them go. And if it's like a layoff, I
• 25:46
  when we had to do layoffs, I actively tried to help people
• 25:51
  find other jobs. I know you did that too,
• 25:52
  Blakely. Where you're like.
• 25:54
  Give me a reference and it let me help me work my connections
• 25:57
  and there's stuff that can be done after and around that.
• 26:00
  But in that moment it's just a clean and cut and dry.
• 26:04
  This is this is the way it is. And be comfortable with
• 26:07
  silences. You don't have to fill out the
• 26:09
  silences. Let's let's let the silence hang
• 26:15
  in the air. I was awkward.
• 26:16
  I'm so bad if silence is hanging in the air.
• 26:20
  Yeah, but I just want to like, you're a great manager for
• 26:23
  feeling human. Just stick it.
• 26:26
  Outly but gosh, don't lose sleep on it.
• 26:29
  Like take a melatonin. Excuse me?
• 26:30
  Oh, don't go saying that either. I went to the ER.
• 26:34
  It's OK if I lose sleep. It's not Go.
• 26:37
  Yes, it is. No, you have boundary.
• 26:39
  Yes, it is. It's not OK to lose sleep I.
• 26:42
  Do not have boundary issues. I am a human being.
• 26:44
  I will say the one thing is you don't have to lose sleep twice
• 26:49
  if you no you. Three nights are losing sleep.
• 26:52
  Yeah, as anxiety, but as three nights?
• 26:54
  RIP the Band-Aid off, yeah. Get it done.
• 26:56
  Yes, you always want to make sure that you have two people on
• 27:00
  the company side present in a termination.
• 27:03
  Always, always so. Always.
• 27:05
  You're not in it alone, and there's records.
• 27:09
  I have a question. Yes.
• 27:11
  Since there's two of you and one of me.
• 27:14
  You're fired. See how easy that was?
• 27:17
  Say, is it? See how I let the silence just
• 27:20
  hang? Mm hmm.
• 27:23
  What is it Clay? What can I help you with?
• 27:26
  I'm the empathetic feeling one here.
• 27:28
  Go ahead and tell me your problem.
• 27:30
  Will you fire me on the podcast? If why did you answer that so
• 27:35
  fast? I wasn't.
• 27:36
  Even telling the question, she's cold hearted.
• 27:39
  Will you will you fire me live on the podcast as an example on
• 27:43
  how to correct? Have you talked about this?
• 27:46
  You guys like when you get together on these walks that you
• 27:47
  go on together, like are you already planning how you're
• 27:50
  going to fire me one day? Live on the.
• 27:52
  Show are you going? To do that to.
• 27:54
  Me. Well, yeah, it will be the last.
• 27:57
  Why would we do it like action we ever do because we would be
• 28:00
  out of business so. It's coming, Clay.
• 28:04
  I won't terminate you, but I would put you on a pip on air.
• 28:09
  OK, I accept that. I'm cool with that.
• 28:11
  I'm cool with the pip. Yes, hey, I'm cool with the pip.
• 28:15
  Yeah, that'll happen on air. For sure.
• 28:16
  OK. To Get Me Out of a PIP, I better
• 28:18
  do my job. We are moving on to the final
• 28:21
  segment of the show, which is called rapid fire, where I'm
• 28:25
  going to read, I sent, give me one.
• 28:27
  Actually, I'm. Blakely hates rapid fire.
• 28:31
  Now that I know that you'll go to the fucking ER for a panic
• 28:35
  attack, I. There's a problem with being
• 28:37
  vulnerable on this podcast, which Blakely, we really
• 28:39
  appreciate that you've done this by being vulnerable on the show,
• 28:43
  that Heather is going to exploit every little vulnerability that
• 28:46
  you show on the podcast. So.
• 28:48
  It's I know, so you know what? It's funny, you know what,
• 28:51
  Blakely, I'm rooting for you in this rapid fire section, so
• 28:54
  thank you. So I'm I might.
• 28:56
  I don't think. I'm going to help you out a
• 28:57
  little bit if you're if. You struggle.
• 28:59
  Yeah, if you struggle, I'm going to help you out.
• 29:01
  This rapid fire is called agree or disagree.
• 29:03
  Now, what I want you to do is I'm going to read a phrase, a
• 29:07
  sentence, and then I want you to say agree or disagree as fast as
• 29:12
  you feel it. I mean, just right away.
• 29:14
  And then, yeah, we'll kind of go between the two of you and maybe
• 29:17
  have you explain. If it's something that's worth
• 29:19
  explaining, I'm the judge. Excuse me, I'm the jury on this.
• 29:27
  Oh my gosh. When's the sticky going to
• 29:31
  unstick that sticker? I know it's like still sticky.
• 29:34
  I don't know. I don't know why it's still.
• 29:38
  Sticky. I love you, Blakely.
• 29:42
  OK, All right, let's do this. I agree.
• 29:45
  OK, OK, let's go, go. Go.
• 29:47
  Here we go. You should always give two weeks
• 29:51
  notice. Disagree.
• 29:56
  Don't care. That wasn't one of.
• 30:01
  OK, you're making this hard to help you win.
• 30:04
  Agree. Or disagree, Yes.
• 30:06
  No, it's not even. Yes, it's agree or disagree,
• 30:08
  just say the word this is. OK.
• 30:11
  Agree or disagree? Blakely help.
• 30:16
  I agree. OK, agree.
• 30:18
  Thank you. You have to do what's best for
• 30:19
  you and your job, and ideally you do, but if it's not going to
• 30:22
  work out, you have to do what's best for you.
• 30:24
  Next, agree or disagree, salary transparency benefits everyone.
• 30:32
  100% agree. Oh yeah.
• 30:35
  Why do you both? Disagree.
• 30:36
  Yeah. Why do you both agree?
• 30:38
  It's. The same reason.
• 30:41
  Go ahead. No, you go.
• 30:46
  I think it's the same thing that like happened with Zillow,
• 30:49
  right? Like we were all uncomfortable
• 30:51
  talking about houses and we all got like weird about it and it
• 30:54
  buried pricing and labor and selling and whatever.
• 30:58
  Now everyone knows what everyone paid for their house.
• 31:01
  I think the same, like freedom will come when everyone knows
• 31:05
  what everyone's getting paid for these jobs and we're not hiding
• 31:08
  behind it. And the disparity between
• 31:11
  minorities and women and what their male counterparts are
• 31:16
  getting paid won't be obfuscated.
• 31:19
  That word that I can't say won't be hidden.
• 31:26
  And then I think what's even worse than that is the disparity
• 31:33
  between like CEO to most of the employees.
• 31:38
  Like I think that is creating this really horrible wealth gap.
• 31:41
  And so salary transparency just think unlocks a lot of issues
• 31:47
  that is that are happening. Doctor Bronner's Great company
• 31:51
  that has a CEO to lowest full time employee.
• 31:57
  Great ratio. Check out Doctor Bronner's.
• 32:00
  Heather, I'm sorry, I'm just not going to ask you what you think
• 32:02
  about that because we're moving on to the next one, but maybe I
• 32:04
  will ask you on this one. The agree or disagree, the best
• 32:08
  managers were promoted from within.
• 32:13
  Disagree. Disagree.
• 32:16
  I don't like to say it, but. It's true.
• 32:18
  Just because you're good at your job does not mean that you're
• 32:20
  good at managing people. Not even close.
• 32:24
  Yeah, I think sometimes you need the outside viewpoints to kind
• 32:28
  of take a fresh set of, you know, a fresh look at what's
• 32:33
  going on. Dynamic wires.
• 32:34
  So I I love promoting from within.
• 32:38
  Makes you love it. Yep.
• 32:40
  It doesn't always work that way. Yep, they have to earn it.
• 32:43
  They have to. You have to be clear that
• 32:45
  actually they have to demonstrate this person is good,
• 32:47
  but it's not. You have to have flexibility to
• 32:50
  bring people in from the outside too.
• 32:52
  OK, great. Am I up for a promotion to
• 32:55
  manage people? Nope.
• 32:58
  You need to monetize this first. Point.
• 33:03
  Heather, she can win the rapid fire round.
• 33:06
  Let's go. OK, Yeah.
• 33:08
  All right, two more rapid fire. Yeah.
• 33:10
  Agree or disagree, office romances never end well.
• 33:16
  Anybody want to go first on this?
• 33:17
  Disagree, agree, disagree. I meant agree.
• 33:19
  I was trying. I was trying to say the opposite
• 33:22
  of what Heather did. Yeah, Miss, I love office
• 33:27
  romance. This is your people.
• 33:28
  This is where you meet everybody on your job.
• 33:31
  You can't disagree with this. Everything.
• 33:33
  You're like an elephant memory. I did say that in the past.
• 33:35
  It's true. I do.
• 33:36
  I think. Yeah.
• 33:38
  Like where you are is your community.
• 33:40
  It's where you meet people. It's OK.
• 33:43
  They can end badly, but. Just to close it.
• 33:47
  Just close it. Sign the.
• 33:48
  Waivers and then get married. And then get married.
• 33:52
  Yep. Live happily ever after.
• 33:54
  That's right. OK, obviously, Heather, you get
• 33:56
  a point for that one. Blakely, you've got to nail this
• 33:58
  last one. And by the way, this is not a
• 34:00
  vape. It's a hand warmer.
• 34:01
  I don't. Know about that.
• 34:04
  Be careful where you put that. Callback.
• 34:11
  It's a callback. Yeah, that was really funny.
• 34:14
  Our our our most dedicated audience will know exactly what
• 34:17
  that means. I just want to say.
• 34:19
  Oh, oh, we get to speak. Now before the last win.
• 34:22
  Rapid fire. OK?
• 34:24
  Please. The floor is yours.
• 34:25
  No, I'm just going to say I may never win a rapid fire.
• 34:27
  It's not like I, I, this is not going to be my company to.
• 34:30
  Answer the last. Question.
• 34:31
  I'm ready for you to win this one, I think.
• 34:33
  We're we're we're tied I. Don't want to be set up to win?
• 34:37
  I I will never, ever let you win.
• 34:42
  I never let my kids win. I never.
• 34:44
  I hate that. No, not even when there were
• 34:46
  two. I'm like, try harder next time,
• 34:48
  OK? Yeah.
• 34:49
  OK, last one, Blakely, I really think you might shine on this
• 34:52
  one. This is like take take it on
• 34:53
  this one. OK, I want you to win this one.
• 34:57
  OK, Rapid fire, agree or disagree?
• 35:01
  Sorry. Rapid fire agree or disagree,
• 35:05
  fake it till you make it is terrible advice.
• 35:09
  Disagree. Disagree.
• 35:13
  Yeah, I think that fake it till you make it is great for
• 35:19
  imposter syndrome because the reality is you already have it,
• 35:22
  you just don't know it yet. So go fake it until you actually
• 35:26
  feel it. Fake it till you feel it.
• 35:30
  I Yeah. I there's nothing.
• 35:32
  Also, every other man in the room is doing it and has been
• 35:36
  doing it for centuries so they don't have it over you.
• 35:41
  I will clarify though, I think at some point when you're
• 35:46
  feeling comfortable, it's better to admit what you don't know, to
• 35:50
  ask questions in the boardroom, be vulnerable, all that stuff
• 35:53
  like that is that's like the best outcome is like just admit
• 35:57
  it. People love that, you know,
• 35:59
  it's, it's great. I don't know you're going to
• 36:03
  say, but though to finish your sentence, you're going.
• 36:05
  To say, but, but if you are, you know, leading for the first time
• 36:12
  and you're nervous about it and you don't know, you don't think
• 36:15
  you know what you're doing, you actually really do.
• 36:17
  You just don't know that, you know, I'm just faking it.
• 36:19
  It's just fine. That's all.
• 36:21
  Yeah. The only why I said I don't
• 36:23
  know, it's because I think especially in PEVC, these, these
• 36:32
  are very intense meetings with people who are showing up for
• 36:35
  the highlights and they're not living in the boots on the
• 36:38
  ground and understanding the realities of what is going on
• 36:40
  to, to run this company. You only know that.
• 36:43
  And then you have one day where everyone comes together 4 * a
• 36:46
  year to present this and then take these hits.
• 36:49
  And if they're trying to throw you off or they don't fully
• 36:51
  understand context, and if you have a moment of feeling like,
• 36:54
  Oh my goodness, why did we hit this or why is that metric not
• 36:58
  showing up the way it is, the better answer is I see your
• 37:01
  point. I see your question.
• 37:02
  Let me get back to you on that. I do have some ideas, but I want
• 37:05
  to make sure that I respond to you accurately.
• 37:07
  So you're owning it in that way versus just, you know what?
• 37:12
  To be honest, I actually didn't even think about that.
• 37:14
  But now that you say it, I mean, they're so quick to poke holes
• 37:17
  and blame without knowing you or understanding the intricacies of
• 37:20
  your company that you just have to be very careful of those
• 37:23
  types of admissions at that level.
• 37:25
  So I think maybe that's not where you're, you have to be
• 37:28
  very careful. I agree.
• 37:30
  You don't want to come off like flighty, unprepared and flighty.
• 37:34
  Yeah, right. But I I think when they're
• 37:36
  throwing some of their whiny ass terms like and I'm supposed to
• 37:42
  know them all, I just want to call him out on that shit.
• 37:44
  So you know what? I don't actually know that term.
• 37:47
  Can you define it for me? Sometimes they don't know it
• 37:49
  either. Honestly, they're just throwing
• 37:51
  it out. They're conditioned.
• 37:53
  I did that once. I agree.
• 37:54
  I, I agree with that because, well, look, you can't put
• 37:56
  yourself in a situation where you're not following the
• 37:58
  conversation because you don't know.
• 37:59
  Don't do that. Absolutely say, I'm sorry, can
• 38:02
  you define that for me? Because you want to be caught up
• 38:04
  in the conversation. You don't want to be 3 steps
• 38:05
  behind because you lose your voice.
• 38:07
  But that happened with API or they were like, OK, can we API
• 38:10
  that? And then I was like, what does,
• 38:12
  what does API stand for? Because we use it all the time.
• 38:14
  And I know that it's like a connector or like an integrator,
• 38:17
  but I didn't know what it stood for.
• 38:19
  And so stuff like that to make sure that we're tracking on the
• 38:23
  conversation. I think absolutely admit.
• 38:25
  I thought you were saying more like if they were gunning for
• 38:27
  you and all of a sudden, Doug, don't admit that you don't know
• 38:31
  what you're doing. What does API mean?
• 38:36
  Integration programmatic integrator interface interface.
• 38:45
  I think it's application programmatic interface.
• 38:48
  We use it so much that we forget what it means.
• 38:51
  Application programming interface.
• 38:55
  Damn. You won, You won one. 100%
• 38:59
  Blakely, you win. You were going to win because
• 39:01
  you wore Carhartt. That was my I already knew you
• 39:04
  were going to win. Heather, do you think you're
• 39:07
  going to wear Carhartt the next time we do a casual Friday?
• 39:11
  It's not me. No, it's not me.
• 39:14
  You would love this scarf I bought Lula.
• 39:16
  I'm going to wear a bikini top and you guys are going to deal
• 39:23
  with it because it's casual Friday and I'm going to wear a
• 39:25
  bikini. I'll tell you what, and you want
• 39:27
  to get some views on this video? Show up in a bikini top.
• 39:31
  I'm telling you people. That.
• 39:32
  People aren't going. Very sweet, Clay.
• 39:34
  Hey, Blakely. What?
• 39:36
  Don't what? You don't.
• 39:37
  You're right. I'm going to go get my spine
• 39:40
  surgery and then my breast reduction and then I will show
• 39:43
  up in a bikini top. OK, OK.
• 39:46
  You know, OK, but this does raise a little bit.
• 39:48
  Uncomfortable. All right.
• 39:50
  Well, if you're listening or watching this video and you
• 39:52
  think you have a better answer than Blakely or Heather to our
• 39:55
  rapid fire section, please hit us in the comments.
• 40:00
  Let us know what do you think. Answer the rapid, agree or
• 40:03
  disagree? Do you agree, do you disagree?
• 40:05
  Fight it out. We love the drama in the
• 40:08
  comments. Heather, if you're not going to
• 40:11
  wear Carhartt on the show, then Blakely is going to win more
• 40:14
  often than not. I do have a bias towards it's a
• 40:16
  Detroit company. If you like this video, if you
• 40:20
  liked this episode, we have plenty more you can go check out
• 40:23
  all of the videos we've done in the past.
• 40:24
  They're right, they're over there, they're right there,
• 40:26
  they're right on your screen. Hit subscribe so you don't miss
• 40:29
  the next one. Until then, we'll see you on the
• 40:32
  next episode. See you next time.