Latest / Inside The Consulting Room - Understanding the Child Behind the Behaviour / Why Some Men Change

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Why Some Men Change · Inside The Consulting Room - Understanding the Child Behind the Behaviour

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome back.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is Kim Lee, child and adolescent psychotherapist, and this is episode four of the five-part series that is concerned with domestic abuse and looking at it from a more thoughtful perspective, in addition to paying attention to the facts.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Now, at the end of the last episode, I talked about responsibility, and that means not reacting in ways that are then justified in the context of it being the other person's fault.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to move on from there and talk about why some men change and some don't.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: But before I begin, I want to just add another dimension to this, which is about the broader legal framework and how this can be understood, and particularly in relation to the effects upon children.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now, coercive control is a criminal offence in the UK and it comes under the Serious Crime Act of 2015.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's punishable by up to five years in prison, fines, and restraining orders.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: It should be remembered that coercive control does not necessarily mean physical harm or acts of violence.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: This has been better understood over the last decade or so.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the consequences is that victims can now enjoy the protection of the courts.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Although it's the case that sometimes proving such cases is difficult.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: In my experience, there are times when I act in a corroborative capacity.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: And what that means is if a woman discloses that she is the victim of such acts, and in one case I remember a man, then I have an ethical duty for the protection of the person, and this is particularly relevant where children are involved because they are also affected.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Children who are in environments where this is happening suffer.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you're very welcome to look at any of my cup my podcasts where this is concerned.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: One in particular, Dirty Little Secrets.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's a catchy title, but it tells its own story and is very concerning.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now, when there are cases where children are involved and where contact becomes a concern, if findings of coercive control are if they are if they are found and the person is duly charged by the Crown Prosecution Service and a case ensues, this will very often lead to the perpetrator having only supervised contact with the child or no contact at all.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: And this is because courts prioritise the child's safety and welfare.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: There are times when I think it's I don't think I know it's the fact that we as professionals have a legal and ethical duty to report our concerns, and we do this to safeguard, we make these referrals to safeguarding teams who determine risk and things.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: If it is the case that their assessment finds that there is evidence of coercive control, they may very well need to include the police.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: And this is this is a significant child protection risk.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: So in my work, there are times when I will if I if I see both parents together, I will make very clear that what I'm hearing indicates to me that there is a risk.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: And the level of that risk isn't for me to determine, but I make clear that should the risk be should it continue, then I will have no alternative but to take the next appropriate step.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now, two things there.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: The first is I will inform people this is the situation and this is what's going to happen.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it can't happen in secret and there is a consequence.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: The second thing is I'm I'm always wanting the engagement of of both parents.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: And if it's the case that I see the alleged person saying, I don't know what to do, I don't understand this, but I'll have to do something, that's a really good sign.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because what it means is, okay, this is a this this is a messy situation, but if you're prepared to engage, there could be a lot that we can do because we have to think about the interests of the child alongside the victim.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: What tends to happen though is if the alleged perpetrator does not engage, that's a red flag.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: And what that means is that the when the referral is made, I will make clear that my clinical impression is that the person concerned is is not prepared to engage, and that raises the risk.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this is important because if we put that into the context of why some men change and some don't, change is important.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: It may very well be that some men can't, but they may still recognize that what they're doing just doesn't work and it does have consequences, and that can sometimes be very helpful because it puts the problem into a wider context.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I think this particular podcast is something that needs to be considered with those broader principles in mind.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: So let's go back to the notion of responsibility as opposed to justification.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: And responsibility is the manifestation of that is when we see sustained behavior rather than just words.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because many people will promise change, but a whole lot fewer sustain it.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Now, why is that?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's because although some people may have some degree of insight and some preparedness to accept the other person's position, that does not automatically result in change because that that those behaviors are habitual and often chronic.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: Change requires psychological restructuring.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a recalibration of your framework.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Some men don't change because they just are stuck with the notion that it's okay for them to justify, or that they feel entitled, or that somehow coming into contact with this reality would cause considerable shame, and they fear vulnerability.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: And remember, I said that underneath this kind of behaviour is very often considerable anxiety, and somehow they kind of equate control with a source of safety, but others do change, and the signs are clear.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: They take ownership without excuse, and I think this is really important because it's it's okay and it's helpful to explain one's behavior, but what sits side by side with that is that explanation is not the same as excuse.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: You can explain and you can have a completely tangible, appreciable explanation, but that is not an excuse.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: So emotional honesty and consistent respectful behavior and a reduced need for control, increased empathy, and an accountability that doesn't fade.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's change.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not dramatic, it's quiet and it's steady, and it's visible through patterns over time, in the same way that abuse is visible through patterns, not just by single act, but the repetition of the kinds of behavior.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, change is exactly the same, and only time really reveals whether the change is real.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I think what is important here is that some men will say, I just don't know how to.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that's good for two reasons.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because it recognises there is a need, and it also voices that they they really do not have the mental equipment to understand why they are the way they are.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: And some people, some men will say, I mean, I've not heard it personally, but I've heard secondhand at least one man say, I know I'm horrible to you, I know I do all manner of things, but then quickly move into, but it's because of this, or it's because of that.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's because I'm experiencing stress or I don't feel good about myself.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I've what I it's a shame I'd love to have been in that situation because I think I would have said, just stop.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go back to I know that I do.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's the end of the sentence.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Anything after that, unless it comes with a preparedness to examine oneself, is noise.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: And very often what will happen is that victims will hear this noise, and sometimes, and this is um this this is this this is ironic, they will move into a rescuer because they he wants to change.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't, I have to help him.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, I'm I'm sure some people listening to this will know that pattern only too well.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's incredibly important to come back to this notion of explanation and excuse.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: There is no excuse.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: There may be all manner of explanations.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, to me, that's a starting point.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you can see you're doing something that doesn't work and it's hurting others, and it may be hurting your children.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, it very probably is.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: So here's the next question.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: What are you gonna do about it?
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: If you drive a car and the dashboard has a red flickering light, what do you do?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I know the lights flickering, but I just won't look at it.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you think, okay, there's gotta be there's an explanation for this, but I need to do something.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, relationships are just the same.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes people don't see the flickering lights.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: But you have to.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you don't, you stand to lose a very great deal.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: In episode five, we're going to look at something called relational maturity from control, moving from a position of control to a position of respect.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a man listening to this and it's making you think, I'm I'm pleased, because it shows that there is a part of you, albeit privately, that is open to hearing this kind of stuff.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I know it's hard.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: I I I appreciate that it's hard.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: But it in lots lots of difficulties that people experience are hard to confront.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: But that doesn't mean we don't confront them.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we have to take responsibility and we have to be prepared to face the hard stuff.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: That that's how the real change happens.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening, and I will come back with episode five shortly.