Latest / Luxe & Legacy Podcast / The Psychology of the Sale: How to Sell Artwork Confidently Without Feeling Pushy With Laura Esmond

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The Psychology of the Sale: How to Sell Artwork Confidently Without Feeling Pushy With Laura Esmond · Luxe & Legacy Podcast

Welcome to the Lux and Legacy Podcast.
I'm Marie from Marie Elizabeth Photography.
And I am Amber from Light Live in Photography.
We created this show for photographers who are ready to run a luxury business with clarity, intention, and elevated artistry.
Each week we uncover the strategies behind high level brands from shooting and styling to client communication, to marketing, to designing heirloom products that increase your value.
If you want to attract aligned clients, produce, work with a recognizable aesthetic and build a business that supports the life you want, this podcast will guide you there.
Let's dive in.
All right, welcome back.
Today we are so excited to introduce our guest, because she is someone I have genuinely loved getting to know, Laura Esman.
And we actually met through an education mastermind we were both part of.
And from the moment that I connected with her, I knew she was the real deal.
In fact, Laura, I remember you sent, like, a voice memo when we were in this mastermind, and it was, like, to everyone.
And it was just this very inspirational message.
And I just, I think that's when I was won over.
Like, oh my gosh, Laura is absolutely amazing.
You were like, "Who is this woman?" Like, that's good.
That's good.
I loved it.
It was, it was authentic and, truly inspiring.
Like, I'm not just saying that.
But Lara is a portrait photographer based in Denver, Colorado, and her work is beautiful.
She specializes in creating and offering stunning artwork for her clients, and truly believes that photos should be printed and displayed, not sitting on a hard drive somewhere.
And beyond her incredible portrait business, she also teaches other photographers how to do the same thing through her mastermind, Get Rooted.
So Lara, welcome.
We're so happy to have you here.
Thank you so much.
It's so great to be here with both of you.
we know our listeners are gonna love this episode so much.
Laura, I know you're an expert in sales psychology, which is really unique.
One of my degrees is in psychology, so I'm always interested in kind of the why and the studying of human behavior, so I'm really excited for today's episode.
So welcome, Laura.
Thank you.
I'm, I'm really happy to be here.
And I mean, you-- I wouldn't call me an expert in sales psychology.
It was something...
It's kinda like a, a, I guess a little bit of a hobby because in the same way, if the But studying the you know, our bodies, I wanna s- understand our mindset, I wanna understand human behavior.
You know, I, I don't use sales psychology in, in a way in like ordering meetings to control a situation or manipulate in any way.
It's just a good way to understand what's going on Mm-hmm.
we're communicating with our clients from, from both what we're saying and why, and how our clients might react.
So I love it.
You probably have a lot that you could contribute to the conversation if you have an actual degree in psychology.
I do not.
why behind purchasing behavior is a Mm-hmm.
very niche and interesting subject.
Yeah.
Yes, it for sure.
So we're gonna dive right in.
And so my first question for you is, what would you tell a photographer who wants to offer artwork but is afraid of sounding salesy? Because I know so many photographers feel this.
I was one of them before I started artwork too Yeah.
I mean, everyone feels that way.
Who wants to be a pushy salesperson? You know? That's just kind of, that would be such a, a bizarre to thing to, a bizarre thing to want to be.
So I, I would say most people that are in sales, especially women, women in our position, women in our industry, none of us want to be pushy.
So first question I would ask is, are you a naturally pushy person anyway? Mm.
not, then you're probably not going to show up pushy in an ordering meeting.
Like, why would that monster suddenly come Mm-hmm.
in a really sensitive, beautiful situation with a client? Mm-hmm.
I would encourage them to just say, like, "You're, you're very likely not going to be."
The other thing that I would wanna do is identify, like, what does it even, what does a pushy salesperson look like to, to us? And I would say, to me, pushy, in our industry, in, in the setting of, like, an IPS setting, it would be trying to talk something, somebody into something they don't want, right? Mm-hmm.
show up to the ordering meeting, and you're pushing a product on them that they never identified as being interested in.
That's pushy.
Using emotionally manipulating the situation, right? Making them feel guilty, "Oh, if you don't buy this, your kids will never have this in their home."
I would never say something like that to my, Mm-hmm.
families.
I would...
A- and I know we talk a lot as an industry about, you know, the importance of print, the children wanna see their images hung and that sort of thing, but that's not really a conversation I'm having with my clients, and I'm not gonna use that in a, in, like, a manipulative way to make them feel like they, they have to buy something.
Also letting somebody buy something more than they need.
Let's say, like, for instance, years ago, when I, when I first started out, I started in this business 26 years ago, before film, before digital, before Framebridge, before Amazon.
And so they really had to come to us get artwork.
And so th- that's, it was just sort of the natural part of the process.
at the time, really, really big wall art was in.
Like, you wanted to sell the...
The industry was saying, "Sell big statement pieces."
And that really maybe, maybe makes sense when you have an established family.
You're pretty sure you're not having any more kids, and you're like, "I really want something big of my family," and you can define what that means, you know, how, what the feel you want, the setting, all of those things.
a newborn? Right? I'm not gonna...
I, will never talk my client with a newborn, with a, their very first child, into a, They would have to talk me into it.
Mm.
to have like a 30 by 40 of their newborn over their crib.
Because my question would be, ooh, okay, what are you going to do with that newborn photo when your child is seven years old and is like, "I do not want that in my room anymore."
Where is it gonna go then? Mm-hmm.
should lead with something a little bit smaller that can grow into a legacy wall, you know because your child is not gonna want this portrait in their room after they're like five, six, seven years old, So we don't, we don't...
A, a, a confident salesperson isn't going to push your client into something that, that isn't the right fit and you're just, you know, maybe you're selling it just because you're going to make more money.
That is being pushy, right? It's selling at any cost.
Yeah A, a confident businessperson and a confident salesperson who just really feels comfort- comfortable in their skin, they understand their pricing they're a leader.
It's the same, and the same thing happens when we're helping a somebody style the session, right? We talk about wardrobe, and we're talking about products.
It's the same framework.
We're asking questions, learning about your client.
They become the, the center focus of the entire conversation, and then you guide them towards the right fit, and you make suggestions.
"Based on what I'm hearing, it sounds like the right fit for you might be this small package that we can scale and, and, and customize to fit your needs."
Or, "You know what? The packages aren't even a good fit for you.
I'm, I- I'm thinking that we're going into a custom, you know, wall art or wall gallery."
So you're making suggestions to them based on the questions you asked and you learned about them, right? A, a leader asks questions first and then provides suggestions.
A leader is going to start the conversation early in the process because we understand that our clients need time to digest prices, to think about what might be the right fit for them.
They need that time.
She's not convincing.
She just confidently offers, right? You're confidently saying your prices.
So, so if somebody asked me like, "Oh, how do I avoid being pushy?" I would just ask you, I just li- I just outlined two personas.
Which one do you wanna be? Which one do you wanna show up as? That's perfect.
And I think the key component there is them questions and saying, "It sounds like what I'm hearing is...
Is that correct? Like, would this be a good fit for you?" And that's not salesy at all.
That's just what they're asking for.
So, love that.
Okay, next question.
How does a photographer's own money mindset, this is something I love to talk about, how does money mindset affect client buying behavior? So the photographer's actual money mindset, how does that influence the client Yeah, I mean, we definitely lead with our own beliefs, and our beliefs show up in our energy.
So Mm-hmm.
up by, you know, the, the typical things with the money mindset are you're selling from your own pocketbook, you can't afford it.
So if you're, if you've ever said those things, if you've ever been in a situation where money is the center of the conversation, you, And I'm talking about in our own personal lives, or you have heard from your parents, "Money doesn't grow on trees."
We all have money mindset issues.
I have money mindset issues that I deal with on a daily basis my Because my kids are constantly begging me to buy things, and, and I'm constantly in the situation like, "We can't, we can't.
We can't afford it.
No, no, no" Right? So that can sh- I don't want that though to show up in my ordering meeting.
So I, I, I've worked on money mindset or kind of studied it, I would say, for the past, like, six or seven years.
I, I really kind of got into it when all the manifestation things came up around COVID and started talking about money mindset and studied it, read all the books.
And I have come to the conclusion for myself that I'm not going to overcome money mindset.
But that doesn't mean that I ha- that I can let it lead and let it walk into the room with me.
I just Hmm to be aware of it, allow it to be there, know that it's there for me, keep moving forward.
So here's, here So there are s- probably some questions that you can ask yourself.
One is, do you believe value of what you're providing? Do you believe in it? think a lot of times people get stuck in the value between what a frame costs and what they're providing and, and their images and are my images good enough, and we get spun up in our head, and now we're trying to connect a price to that, and it can feel very raw and uncomfortable.
So we have to start with identifying, do I even believe in the value of what I'm providing? Secondly, does your experience validate the price, right? I, am I And now, I, I do want to be very careful here about what I'm, when I'm asking that question.
Have you guys ever read the book It's kind of old.
Have you guys ever read the book The Nordstrom Way? Mm-mm.
No, I haven't heard of it is a book that came out I'm trying to think.
I, I think I read this book probably when I was starting my business, right? So this is like early 2000s, and it was a really popular book.
And I would say I kind of feel like Nordstrom kind of isn't what it used to be.
It hasn't been my s- I don't feel like I get the same experience there, but back in the early 2000s, it was the place for really learning how to have an amazing sales experience inside, like, a department store.
And, and somebody wrote a book.
I don't remember if it was somebody that worked there or don't remember who it was, but I drew from that book was you don't talk about experience, you show it.
You know, you, you talk about luxury brands, and luxury brands aren't shouting about their experience that they provide.
They just do it.
Mm-hmm.
so when I ask, "Does your experience validate the price?" I'm not then suggesting that we need to go off shouting out our experience all the time and, and trying to validate and prove it to our clients.
That's something that you just show your client throughout the whole process.
And I can see you guys, like, nodding along, like, yes, absolutely.
So I wanna be careful there.
But the experience, we have to be confident that our experience that we're providing along the way will, at the end of the day, validate the, the price that we're charging, right? Like, if, if you're...
What I charge for a frame is not for the materials, it's for the image, it's for my service, it's for my time, it's the fact that I'm working with the framer.
It's, it's, it encompasses so many different things, and so that, and the fact that I'm sitting with my client and I'm willing to do that, there are a lot of things built into that, that price.
And so the entire experience along the way has to validate that.
then the last thing I would think would be is what are you, what are, what do you fear? What am I, what am I afraid of? Right? Because confident people don't convince.
Sh- you know, she says prices clearly, she knows when to stop talking when she's talking about prices, and she never apologizes for her prices.
Mm-hmm.
so we can walk in with money mindset issues of our own.
We can say to ourselves 1,000 times, "I could never afford my own photography.
I could never afford my own prices," but still walk into an ordering meeting with the confidence of, of a, of just a business owner who understands this is the price that I have to charge for this work, and I have the experience and the business to validate that price.
I love that.
It, it sounds or reminds me very much of, like, a therapy centered approach.
Acknowledge the feeling, acknowledge the emotion, and then, like, reframe or, you know, get yourself prepared for entering into your appointment.
But it's not like pushing it away and pretending it doesn't exist.
And I think it was Shannon Griffin who said that money mindset is a practice, and it's something that is constant and it, you know, you don't suddenly arrive and have an amazing money mindset.
It's something that you just need to constantly work on.
Yeah, So agree.
And it, because it, it scales, right? At, there are, at, at first, your money mindset might be that you're uncomfortable at a, at like a $1,500 price.
Mm-hmm.
I start to feel a l- a bit squirrely when someone i- is adding and adding and adding and I'm, and I'm looking at it wondering if they're doing the math on this, and I'm like, Yeah over $15,000."
And I'm like- I have to say this number out- out loud, but I have proven through years of experience that you just still say the number, because Mm-hmm.
thing to do for your client.
Yeah Right.
We have to show up and just be confident.
And I also, you know, when it comes to, like, and pricing, Mm-hmm.
watched people, not, not like in a setting kind of like out, you know, shopping or something like that, where someone might look like they can't afford it.
It's kinda like the Julia Roberts thing in what is it? What's that movie? Oh, Pretty Woman? Pretty Woman.
Pretty Woman, right? Mm-hmm like, she walks into the nice...
this to me."
It's that philosophy where you, you don't want to offend people.
So if you act Mm-hmm.
what if it's not to them? And then they're kinda like, "Why are you treating me like this is too expensive? This isn't too Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
you know? So it's like we can, we should never assume that somebody can't afford something, and then it's also our job, it's our duty to just be very forthcoming and, and transparent with prices and, and just say them straight.
Mm-hmm.
about Yeah, we were just talking about that a little bit on our last episode, how your perspective changes at each price point.
Like now we're- we consider 900 like, "Oh, I could never only charge 900.
That wouldn't be enough for all that we do."
But a few, not even like five years ago or six years ago, I was like, "I could never charge 900."
But to n- to Marie and I now, that's really low.
S- but I think it's important to kinda sit in the energy field of those big numbers and like going up gradually.
So how did you...
i'm sure you didn't go from only $1,500 sales to 15,000 immediately.
Was there anything you did to let yourself settle into that and going up incrementally from there? So, you know, I feel like that, that's actually such an interesting question, It's a hard question to answer, so one, no, I, when I started my business, I started in weddings.
And this is a mistake that I think a lot of wedding photographers make, is I looked at my day and I would spend, I w- I think at the time I was charging, I don't know, 5, 6, $7,000 for a wedding.
But I was there all day long, and sometimes the night before, and sometimes the day after, right? So I was doing hours of work.
The idea of looking at a portrait session where, in my mind, I'm like, "Oh my God, it's one hour.
I'm gonna pop out and do a session for one hour.
How could I charge thousands of dollars for that? That doesn't even make sense to me.
I'll just do those for, like, 500 bucks.
It'll just be a little, you know, side thing."
So when I first started photographing portraits, I was just sort of popping out like the typical wedding photographer, like, "Sure, I'll do that, $500, $500."
And then I think I bumped it up to 800 and was like, "Ooh," and I lost a few clients.
But then I s- but then I think about two years later, I moved into a more substantial studio where I could actually photograph people in the studio, and I had a little sales space.
And you know, and this was still very early years, and so I started showing artwork.
The thing about pricing is that we have control over our digital pricing.
We don't really have control over our artwork pricing.
That's controlled by the vendor.
Mm-hmm.
your markup, right? It can be times three, four, five, six, whatever you want that to be.
That's, that's on the photographer.
but it's set by your cost.
so my, my product pricing has really never changed.
What changed is me getting out of my way and just allowing the customer to buy what they wanted and needed for their home.
And that's then where it went from, like, somebody would buy a single piece of artwork to, "I want a whole gallery."
You know, I think last year I did a gallery for somebody who had never bought artwork from me, and suddenly they came in and they're like, "I wanna f..."
They had moved into this new grand home.
They'd built it.
It was absolutely stunning, and they had this huge hallway that was broken out by these big windows, and it was a really modern home and this big, huge hallway.
And they're like we wanna just fill it up with portraits."
And, I thought, "Okay, I hope they understand."
And so, you know, we put it together and, and I needed to breadcrumb the cost along the way.
They ended up spending $24,000 on artwork.
I-- all I did was get out of the way and allow them to create this beautiful space for their home that they were over the moon about and thanking me for, right? They were, Yeah this money with me and then thanking me for making it happen.
Mm-hmm.
so I, I feel like I didn't necessarily...
I mean, I've, I've played a lot with, like, my base rate, you know.
I eventually started to understand the idea of CODB, the cost of doing business.
And I was like, "Okay, I need to kind of take that on."
And then I, you know, I opened up a volume retail studio where I had multiple employees and, and, you know, we had to figure out a sales process there.
And so I always understood that there needed to be a base, but the cost of products, that's, that's kind of locked in based on what our vendors charge us and, and what our markup is going to be.
Yeah.
So that $24,000 sale, I was thinking about it, and a client would probably invest something similar for an interior designer plus, you know, art, right, to hang.
So like we're just doing both jobs in one, right? So I actually, that's actually a really good point.
I was working with I was, I n- not feeling well yesterday.
I did a Zoom call for my client, and she had her mom and, and her on, and I've worked with them a number of times, and she's talking to me about doing some renovations in the home, and then she wants to...
She's always been a digital buyer from me, and she wanted to finally do a wall gallery.
And was like, "Great, I would love to help you with that."
And I said, "Do you have a space in mind?" And she said, "Well, I've been...
My interior designer had me work with an, a custom artist who comes into your home, walks around, and finds space for custom artwork, and then you buy the artwork from her.
She creates custom artwork for a space."
And she said that, "My gallery space is that over there.
It's like this."
So she, she had this artist walking around her home, and an interior designer explaining to her, "That's where you need to put the family gallery wall, and let's do..."
And I was like, "Great, just, you know, send me the measurements and I'll start to put something together."
so, yeah, I mean, they're, they're investing in their home, they're investing in their space, they're investing in art, and it's, it's really no, no different.
Yeah, I know.
When you think of it that way, it's like, wow, they're getting a deal, you know, working with, with me compared to using both an interior designer and an artist.
right.
Okay, now for a practical question.
How do you get clients bought in on artwork before the session even begins? Like, what does that early introduction or education look like? Yeah.
Yeah, so I mean, this is where, I m- Amber, I've even heard you call it, like, breadcrumbing.
I think you said that at one point in a, in a TMA thing, and it was like, yes, breadcrumbs.
I, so it starts with, I think, where the photographer thinks they're going, what journey are you on as the photographer? Because it starts with us, 'cause if we're the leader, where are we leading our client to? What's the end goal? And I think a lot of photographers have a tendency to think, "I'm just here to create a beautiful session."
Mm-hmm.
goal not to create a beautiful session.
That's a, that is a goal along the way, but my goal is actually to create something really beautiful for the home, something that's gonna last.
It's an heirloom product.
That's where you can get into all the, like, fun little, you know, heart-wrenching language that we use.
It is to create something that's lasting.
So I am always, always, from the moment someone even reaches out, I am always thinking that my, my job is not done until I- Till I've actually provided something tangible.
Now, I, a quick little segue, not all of my clients buy wall art from me.
Sometimes the situation is just that they're only gonna buy digitals, and I'm fine with that.
In fact, that sometimes it's nice to have something that's just really easy and clean, and you send the digitals.
I am perfectly fine with that.
That is why I am priced the way I'm priced.
Mm-hmm.
I think because my, my goal doesn't end before that, it doesn't end at styling, it doesn't end at gallery, a ga- gallery delivery, it ends when I- we've had that final conversation.
So because that's my end is, end is, end destination, I am consistently bringing it up along the way.
It's just a very natural part of the conversation.
So whether that's you know, that could be on an inquiry call if I do one.
It's all over my website.
I talk about it constantly.
Even my Instagram, my Instagram is more about education now, but all my clients follow me, and they love it.
They think it's, they think it's kinda cool.
They love seeing what I'm, what I'm talking about on there.
But because I'm always talking about artwork on there too, they're like, "Oh, yeah," right? So I've got clients that even now, because I talk about it so much and so consistently, my clients I've had, I have had in the past year, I have had so many clients text me or call and say, "Hey, I have this space in my house that I really wanna hang some artwork.
Let's get a session planned."
And I'm like, they're reaching out to me now, telling me what they wanna buy before they've even booked a session.
So they have it in their mind because I am talking about it, I think, so consistently.
If I'm working with somebody that's a bit more new, maybe I've never, you know, they're not an older client of mine, they're a new client, want to ask them, again, this goes back to being a leader and asking questions, "What is it that you want to do with these images? What, what's our end goal here? Do you have a space in your home that you think you wanna hang them?" This can come up on an inquiry call.
This goes into even You know what? Okay, so here's a, here's a really good point.
If you ask an architect, "What does it cost to build a house?" They're like, "Hmm, okay.
Well, what kind of house do you want? How Mm-hmm.
big is your garage? How big is your kitchen? Is it two story, one story, three story? Do you have a basement? Do you have a pool? Like, what do you, how, how gourmet is your kitchen?" Right? They've got a lot of questions before they can give you a price on a house.
There's a lot of legwork they have to do.
As photographers, we tend to think that we can just name our price, and we tend to just name digitals when we talk about our pricing.
The way that we should be talking about pricing to our clients in the very beginning is, "Well, first tell me a little bit about what you want to do with them."
Mm-hmm.
I can give you a price, right? So that, the-- when I start talking about pricing with my client, I try to narrow the I try to help them visualize how they want to utilize the images so that when I'm giving a price, I can, again, make a suggestion.
So those suggestions are happening at the very, very beginning, and then, you know, we'll talk about it again at the planning call.
That's where they'll probably dive in a little bit deeper.
And I don't do a planning call with every one of my clients.
Again, my older clients are like, "I'm good.
I got this.
I already know what I want, I know how I'm gonna style, and I'm gonna text you some images."
But with my newer clients, I, I hand walk them through every piece of this process.
And in the planning call, again, it comes up.
"Okay, have, you know, have you put a little bit more thought about how you wanna use them? You mentioned maybe a space in your home, or maybe you wanted to do a piece of artwork.
you know, let's think about this piece a little bit so I can make sure to create something that's going to work for you."
Mm-hmm.
saying that you have to buy that from me.
That's just me making sure that I can help you fill that space in your home or create the album.
Yeah And it, by the time somebody shows up to an ordering meeting, should have had a conversation with me where we've talked about, I've pointed out prices, I've, I've customized the conversation by asking questions about what they want, so that when they show up, they can change their mind.
That, that happens.
They might show up and be like, "Oh my gosh, we were actually thinking about it and we decided we wanna do X, Y, Z."
I've got them visualizing it the entire time.
Mm-hmm.
then they show up to an ordering meeting going, "Okay, I'm ready.
Mm-hmm.
to go."
Yeah.
That visual- visualization of imagining themselves with that final product is huge.
You know? It's like an affirmation in a way.
Yeah.
Yes.
customize it, you know, for each client.
And it really is about them.
Like, people want different things, you know.
Not everyone is going to want the same, you know, cute little package with a bow on it.
And then of course, there's all the, all the photographers who only offer digitals, and like how many photos are living on the cloud out there that will always live there, you know? dying.
Yeah.
Just dying in a, in a cloud.
It, it kinda makes me sad, right? Yeah It's sad both for their legacy.
It's also sad for what they spent on those digitals to do nothing with them.
You know, Mm-hmm.
they spent $500 or $3,000 on those digitals, that's a lot of money to just sit on a hard Mm-hmm Yeah, and eventually you lose track of them unless you're the most organized person on Earth.
And technology changes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And Mm-hmm.
are from making that decision, the less you care about it.
And that's, Mm-hmm.
one of the things that works to our benefit with doing an IPS meeting and sitting down with them, is it's a contained situation where they make a decision, and it's also when they're most excited about it.
The Mm-hmm.
Right.
they see those images when you send a gallery, right? They might see that email come through when they're waiting in car line, they click it, they, they scroll through a few images, then car line moves, and they throw their camera or their phone to the side, and they, they Huh.
not come back to it for a day.
And then a week later, they're finally like, "Ugh, I need to finally look at those and figure out what I'm gonna order."
But at that point, it feels like a burden.
It Mm-hmm.
exciting.
It's like Yeah much time has passed and that initial excitement has worn off.
That's part Yeah.
a gallery.
Yeah, it's like becomes task and homework oriented, and then people are gonna be overwhelmed, and so they avoid it and don't do it and just Yeah.
do the easy option, you know? huge supporter of doing the ordering appointment together.
For me, it's the most important thing to be like, "Okay, now that you've seen your amazing images," and They're, like, tearing up or whatever, "Now let's talk about your favorites that you wanna put in an, in an album, 'cause I know you wanted an album.
Let's just do it right now."
You know? It's just such a huge difference.
And there's no pushback.
Nobody Mm-hmm.
on that meeting, ever, ever.
They're excited about it.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Okay.
I feel like we covered...
I'm gonna take this part out.
But I feel like we covered a lot of that in, Mm-hmm.
So, well, maybe I'll just jump to hesitations real quick.
Okay.
Why do you think that some clients do say throughout the process, "I want an album," or, "I want these frames," but then they hesitate when it's time to purchase? I mean, some it is true, some clients are going to spend, and some clients are just not going to spend, and that's fine.
I've got a handful of people who they have always been my digital clients.
They're very easy to work with.
It's streamlined.
It's, fine.
I think typically hesitation comes from just being unprepared for making the decision in the ordering meeting.
so, you know, what, what we were talking about before and, and, you know, guiding our clients through this whole experience, and that's, that's part of a service and helping them to be able to show up to an ordering meeting and not feel surprised or shocked or unprepared or unsure of what to get.
They, they should feel really comfortable and safe inside that meeting, right? That breadcrumb experience safety for our client and trust for our client.
We found in where I saw this really show up, and th-this doesn't show up for me anymore.
My clients show up and they are prepared.
They're ready to go.
And, but in my retail studio, when I had, you know, the employees and everything, our process was we, we booked in the client, then the, the client would come in for the session, and they, they got a, a bit of information over email, but we were a bit more volume, so we didn't do all the phone calls and all that whole piece.
Then they would come in for the for the session.
The photographer would photograph the session in the studio, and then when they were done, they would walk them out to one of our employees, and her title was Client Concierge.
The Client Concierge would book them in for an ordering appointment, and then her job was to share about the products and walk them around the space, and, you know, this took maybe five minutes.
We, we understood that clients didn't want to sit there and talk at length.
And some did.
Some wanted to talk at length, but for the most part, you're just kind of walking around and sharing the products and, and she had her...
You know, she understood what to say and what questions to ask.
And and then she would put together a little pricing envelope for them with the different things that they were interested in and send them on their way.
And then those clients would show up for the ordering meeting, and they, they would have a really strong understanding of, of what they were interested in buying.
If-- And we had this little these little clear envelopes that, that walked with every client.
It had all of their information in there, and on the top of that little clear envelope was a checklist.
And so every step that the client went through, there was a check that, that...
And somebody would signature.
I did this, signature.
And if a client showed up for an ordering meeting, and they weren't prepared, and they had a little bit of shock in their eyes, and they were confused, and they didn't know what they wanted, and walked out with digitals or occasionally walked out just saying, "Can you...
I don't know.
I, I have to think about this."
I would go back, I would look at that, that checklist and like, they didn't get the c-client concierge walkthrough for whatever reason.
Every now and then, if the day was just really busy, and that somehow fell off the radar, we tried to make sure it never did.
But if it did, those were the only people that came in unprepared.
Hmm.
having that system of, you know, my system now is very fluid for me.
It's just a very natural process, which is what it should become for anybody who learns a system.
It should just become like riding a bike.
but it is a system, and having that system and making sure that you have those touch points, that builds trust, and it builds safety and allows that person to come in fully prepared.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Very true.
A client concierge is a nice name as well.
I li- Yeah.
I like that title.
name.
So how much would you say, how much of a buying decision is emotional versus logical? Or is it a balance of the two? I mean, I personally feel like it's both, and I feel like it probably depends on the person you're talking to.
Some people are Mm-hmm.
some people are logical buyers, Yeah.
it's our job to just sort of understand that and be able to, to speak to both of them.
When it comes to the emotional piece of it, I think it's just our job to support them emotionally, Mm-hmm.
I feel like that really happens through, again, building that trust through your process of communicating very clearly about everything.
The emotional part happens when they show up to an IPS meeting and they look at their images, and now they have visual, real visual context for what they're buying because it's their family and their kids, and they're like, "Oh my gosh," like, Mm-hmm.
those are beautiful, and I love them."
And they're teary and they can't believe what you got.
And, "Oh my gosh, the day was so crazy.
I can't believe you got all these things," right? And they're...
They get into an emotional state.
We don't take advantage of that at all.
That would be odd.
That would be pushy, right? But you're just holding that space for them and, and giving them that moment to be able to take in the images and, and look at the products again now with sort of a renewed perspective of, "Okay, now I can see my family in here."
The logical piece, that one's interesting 'cause I feel like I've experienced too, in the retail studio where our prices were probably, they were a bit more likable and, or just easier.
In there it was l- it, th- it was a logical person purchase because we were relatively affordable.
Mm-hmm.
you could definitely spend, but you could also we had some smaller packages where people could spend, I don't know, $600 or $700, because we worked with slightly higher volume.
With...
And so it, it just felt, it, it kind of made sense logically.
Now I feel like the logical aspect comes in based on time, you know, where my clients are like, "I'm busy, it is worth spending the money here Yeah and having you do this, because at least I know it'll get done," Yeah some of my clients, they are working with interior designers, or they have access to some of our wholesalers that are local.
They have the ability to go and do it.
It's not like they, they, they can't, Mm-hmm.
but they just don't want to spend the time to do it.
So logically, it makes sense just to be like, "Yes, okay.
I, I understand why it costs this much because I don't have to be hands-on, and that makes it worth it."
I had a, I had a client in the other day who I was photographing her second maternity.
She had referred a friend to me, I think, like a month ago or a month earlier, two months earlier, and she was like, "Did she ever, did she hire you?" I think it was, like, someone she works with.
And I was like, "No, she didn't.
I never heard back from her."
And she was like, "Ugh, I don't under-..."
Yeah, she goes, "I saw her images, and I had a, I kinda had a feeling they weren't yours.
They, they just didn't look as good."
And then she said, "I..."
What did, how did she say it? She said "I just-" The...
Oh, she said, "These are my memories.
is where my money goes."
Mm-hmm.
Right? So for her the way I see that is that's both emotional and logical.
It makes logical sense for her to invest in those, in that, that legacy for her Yeah and that, that emotional sup- you know, space for her family.
So yeah, I, I think it's both.
Yeah.
I know there's like different buyer types and also I, you know, this is definitely a generalization, but like I, you know, women I think we're so much more attached to the memories of our family where I think, you know, there's the stereotypical dad who's like, "What? You know, $5,000 for a gallery of photos?" So it is interesting how everyone $1,500 on a Right they...
You know, like a nine, what, nine iron, whatever they're called.
I Yeah, yeah.
know that they can be expensive.
Yep.
Yeah, we all have different priorities.
Right.
of the time my clients they run their own businesses or they're, a high-up person in their company, and this is their own money, so husband's not even part of Right, right.
That happens a lot in my world too.
This is my it sometimes.
little credit card here.
No one else is gonna see this.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, something that happens a lot that I see is people who are just starting out IPS, and they've just jumped up their prices.
They're really nervous, so they start to over-explain their pricing on a consult call.
What happens psychologically when photographers apologize for that, when they start Mm-hmm uncertain? And how does that affect trust in the client? I think, you kind of hit the nail on the head.
I think you, you do lose at least subconsciously, you're sort of losing the trust of the person in front of you.
And I think this can happen on an inquiry call, and it can happen in an ordering meeting too, where if we aren't confident in, in our pricing and we don't understand why we're priced the way we are or we're uncomfortable with that, you know, saying the big number we, we lose our position as being the authority, Mm-hmm.
the expert.
And emotions are contagious.
There's a thing called emotional contagion where, you know, you, our, our emotions that we bring into a space will be transferred over to our client, right? And so then now this client has this internal battle of like, "Wait, is this worth it?" You know, I think it happens when you see it in, you can s- probably feel that or get a sense of that in an inquiry call, and then in an ordering meeting when, when a client or the photographer says a price and then it's like, "I know it's kind of expensive," or says, "Well, that's, you know, $2,300, but I can probably, I, I can take 20% off of Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
a, so many things are happening there and it, I think it just creates confusion for the client.
The client will be like, "Great, take 20% off."
Yeah.
you know, you're, you're devaluing it.
You're, you no longer look confident in your prices.
Like why did that suddenly come up? Why do you sudden- why can you suddenly take 20% off? Mm-hmm.
just, suddenly your pricing now, you have established a situation with a client who may wanna work with you again as negotiable.
the pricing is not really trustworthy and, and you've, you've kind of minimized the value of what you're providing.
And so we just, we have to practice just saying, saying numbers and just being really comfortable with Mm-hmm.
just...
Okay, so here's a, here's a metaphor for us.
I don't know if it's a metaphor or simile or what it is, but one day, years ago, my husband is a True skier.
Fantastic skier.
to watch him ski.
I'm an okay skier.
You would think I would be better after living in Colorado for as long as I have, but I'm an okay skier.
And I t- like we were skiing one day in Vail and I typically ski like, I'll ski blues and blacks.
I'll get myself down them, but they're challenging for me.
a back area of Vail called the Back Bowls, and you need to be a pretty, pretty darn good skier to ski back there and to ski back there confidently.
And I was with him and I was, and I had my best friend and her husband with me, and they talked me into it and I was like, "All right, I'll do it."
And it was a challenge- I got through it, and I had fun.
Started to get tired after a while, and Suzanne and I, my best friend and I, we then leave the guys back there in the back bowls, and you have to then travel to the front of the mountain to get down to the village.
So I was like, "Let's go...
Let's just go.
Let's go get, like, a cocktail or something."
So we are now skiing the blues and the blacks that used to feel challenging to me on the front side of the Vail mountain, and we get down, and I look at her and I'm like, "That felt so easy after skiing the back bowls."
Like, I can't believe that ever felt challenging to me.
Mm-hmm.
Here's the connection.
We have to practice saying our prices, Mm-hmm.
suggest saying is, like, let's say, let's say we're uncomfortable with the price, like, $2,000.
Don't practice saying that something costs $2,000.
Drop fake invoices for $8,000, Hmm.
right? Start practicing quoting prices that are way beyond your comfort zone.
Mm-hmm.
Set up pretend meetings with, with, you know, your friend.
Say those prices in the mirror.
Record yourself saying those Mm-hmm listen to it, right? That repetition, our brain is kind of dumb, right? Yeah it's made of plastic, and it just kind of whatever.
I say that kind of jokingly, but our, our brain is kind of dumb.
We w- we can convince it of Yeah.
And so if we set up a fake meeting where we have something, you know, th- where this client orders $8,000 in artwork and, and then they're...
And, and your fake client is like, "Oh my gosh, thank you.
Great."
And, you know, whatever.
And you go through that whole process, and you do that a couple of times, and you repeat those numbers over and over again.
Suddenly, saying $2,000 isn't gonna feel like that big of a deal, Yeah Skiing the front side of Vail was suddenly easy after doing something that was really challenging.
Mm-hmm.
step into that comfort or step a- outside your comfort zone and do that again and again Yeah and eventually it'll start to click.
Yeah, it really does stretch you.
And I know I've shared this on our podcast before, but like if anyone can, or if I can offer IPS, anyone can because I am like a self-diagnosed people pleaser, and I've had to work on it a lot obviously.
But like I've practiced saying, you know, my, through my consult calls and ordering appointments, and so there's no emotion.
Like I'm not scared when I talk anymore.
I just know like, "Okay, this is the next step.
I'm gonna tell them about this."
And another thing, one of my little secrets too, is that I'm, I do Zoom ordering appointments, and I look at my own camera because I just see myself.
I'm not reading the other person's affect, which can like...
I feel like I'm very sensitive to that.
Like I'll get, you know, get subtle cues that could be wrong, you know? But I am just making sure that I look and sound confident with what I'm saying in a call.
So I'm like not even worried about Yeah, that's, that's actually brilliant.
I love that.
Like, I'm just talking to myself and Yeah.
it costs $10,802.
I absolutely love that tip, Laura, about sending yourself fake invoices and having practice calls saying these really high numbers because you do-- and you have to feel safe.
Your body has to go, "Okay, this is Hmm takes a while for your, mind and, and energy to feel like these big numbers are normal.
So that's a Yeah.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
funny 'cause your body is going to react whether or not you, like, you're aware of it, you know? Like, I notice, like, I may be a little bit more sweaty, like, after when I get up, like, after a call.
And it's not something I'm noticing at all, like, during the appointment, but you don't want, like, tension, you know, to show and be visible.
So yeah, just, like, kind of releasing the, the negative emotion tied in with, like, those numbers and words is, Yeah.
And is- think that it's just repetition, right? Yes stepping in, be uncomfortable in the first couple of ordering meetings, and then you reap the reward of comfort and safety, and it just becomes old hat, and suddenly Mm-hmm.
become that person that's like, "$2,000, whatever," you know? You know, I'm-- I get nervous about $15,000.
You-- And I know that sounds kind of terrible.
I don't mean that to sound That doesn't sound terrible at all.
I understand, yeah, I get it.
Mm-hmm and, and in that comfort comes confidence.
You know? Confidence is just, it's quiet, it's leaning back, it's saying the price, it's guiding to asking questions.
It's Mm-hmm.
Did I say calm? I mean, it...
And that is something that I think can be, can be learned through the action of doing it, even if it's, you know, a fake, a fake meeting and Yeah.
through repetition.
The brain is so powerful.
You can really, really train it to, to grow.
And my husband jokes, like he'll ask me, or he'll say like, "So do you have any meetings today?" And I'll be like, "Yeah, I had two ordering appointments."
He's like, "Oh, well, you know, how much were they?" 4,000."
You know, like, I mean, he's, he's like, "That...
You...
There was a time where we used to like celebrate, you know, that kind of s-" So I mean, and it's funny, and I'm very grateful.
I, I wanna make sure I'm not coming across as Yes.
Yes.
for that.
Right.
it's funny because in my mind, those aren't huge sales now, you know? Yeah, they're yeah.
now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, I love that.
Okay now we're going to shift into positioning and branding just a little bit.
Okay.
Okay, so here's, here's our first question.
What makes the client perceive a photographer as luxury before they inquire without the word luxury written everywhere? Okay.
Okay, I think this needs to be a group conversation because I'm, I'm definitely not a brand expert.
Like, I do, I I Neither years old.
I've had a lot of experiences in, like, having, you know, some cool luxury experiences, which I think is really important.
If you Yeah to come off as a luxury experience, you should go out and have some luxury experiences.
You know, like, go to that high-end restaurant.
Go to the, you know, go stay at the high-end boutique hotel where they, they walk in and, and give you all the services.
experience that just that it's...
to me is quiet, Mm.
Calm, and...
it's not yelling at you that it's luxury.
In fact, I don't think that we should call ourselves luxury at all.
I've actually, I've struggled with that word for a really long time.
I think we should just call ourselves a, you know, maybe a high-touch experience or service-oriented, Mm-hmm.
warm.
Because that luxury is 100% felt.
Now, when it comes to the look of luxury, I, I think that really comes down to, like, your, your personal aesthetic.
I to me, I l- I, I'm a minimalist.
I love the feel of something that's just minimal and clean, and and so that's what I lean into in how I dress and how I design, and and I hope that it gives off, you know, a, a high-end feel to it.
But I, I don't feel like we should be, you know, just like I talked about before with, like, the Nordstrom way and what the book was talking about, we're not, we shouldn't be outlining our experience and bullet-pointing it.
I mean, you can, you can walk them through the process, but even I don't, I don't walk my clients through my process.
I don't tell them what the process is.
do I "Next, here's what we're going to do next.
Here's what you can expect next."
You know, they know at the end we're gonna have an ordering meeting.
That is, that is understood.
I don't know.
I mean, what do you guys think? I'm curious what you guys think about luxury brands and, and how, how we should express that as photographers.
Yeah.
I feel like so much lexicon is overused too now, you know? Like, what is luxury? Like, everyone's a luxury photographer, or everyone offers a stress-free experience, you know? But I love that idea of, like, calm p- and just that, yeah, offering that calm and how they're gonna feel.
Like, just focusing on that, mm, mm.
Yes.
Yeah, exactly.
It's a feeling.
Mm-hmm.
it's taking care of the steps it's taking care of each step before your client has to ask you.
Mm-hmm I've Yeah.
said that if my client has to follow up with me, that's a point of failure.
Yeah have been in front of it.
I should have communicated.
I should have, you know, if like if a frame took longer than expected, I should reset the expectation.
Just wanted to let you know.
They should...
That's where automations come into play.
I think sometimes f- people feel like to be a handheld experience means that they have to communicate everything personally, every step.
I'm like, "Absolutely not."
Mm-hmm.
are being repeated, and pieces of those things should be just in your automation so that you Right.
through the Yeah.
Reminding them of their session a few days before.
They get reminder emails with a bit more information.
All of that information is tailored to the type of session that we're photographing, you know.
So there's a newborn email that goes out.
There's a, a maternity email that goes out, a family on location email.
You know, it's just thinking, thinking through your entire process and making sure that you have those trust points built in, right? That, that kind of...
Well, a friend of mine calls it trust points.
Points and trust points.
I, I Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
points along the way, and they're built into your process so that you never show up...
I mean, I, somebody photographed me, this was years ago, she was photographing our family, and she called me the day before the session and was like, "Where do you want to photograph?" And I'm like, "I know I'm a photographer, but I'm paying your full rate."
Mm-hmm.
I, like, I don't know if this is, like, how you always operate, but I'm like, this is...
feel, I don't feel cared for.
I feel like just kind of another session, another thing you have to do tomorrow.
Mm-hmm.
you know, so our clients that at the end of the day, and that's what makes it feel like a, a, something they can trust, Mm-hmm.
that i- that is luxury.
Yeah I agree, and I, I think luxury is a more Thought out experience where not only are you doing a, a consult call, you're doing a planning call and an ordering appointment, but then like you said, having automated workflows, 'cause otherwise our brains will forget clients.
Like, we will forget to send them that email.
So having some of the, the information automated so they're not having to ask questions.
but it's also, to me, luxury is having less clients at a, at a better experience.
Whereas if you're bulk or volume, you're not You can Yeah, you can't.
And so it's gonna be that thing where you call the night before and go, "Oh, where do you wanna shoot?" Like, that's because you're probably overbooked and you didn't...
You know, you just don't have time to take care of everybody that way.
So yeah.
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah.
I agree with that 100%.
It's a refinement and, and yeah, fewer sort...
It's kinda like if you, if you visualize our businesses as a boutique, it would be the boutique that you walk into that has like, you know, there's like single pieces of clothing kinda like spread out on the hanger.
You know, there's not like you know, there's like five pieces hung here.
You can see them perfectly, and it's just Limited edition.
Yes.
Yeah.
It's all Yeah.
And there's someone there to help you if you ha- you know, if you have questions and know what's gonna be the right fit for you.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
I even find that I, I become...
And, and I know e- and everybody does I, I, I feel like I hear from people a lot like, "Oh, I don't know if the quality of my work is good enough to, like, sell artwork."
And I'm always like, "Well, two things.
One, it was good enough for them to hire you, and they're probably gonna do s- hopefully they're gonna do something with your Mm-hmm.
you know, with the digitals, so why not you, why not help them?" But the second thing is, is when you are selling artwork, you create more capacity for your brain to be able to do more, right? Like, and, and ex- y- you get more expansion Mm-hmm.
you're not spread thin between all of these people.
And so when your price is right, and you allow, and you create a business that can actually scale per session, know, it can go from, you know, anywhere from, I don't know, a $1,500 session to a $24,000 session, you have the ability for that to happen.
creates more opportunities for your business, for you to be able to really melt into a client and really invest time into a session and spend some time Like, I've recently been able to spend so much time with a handful of my clients really designing and, like, thinking about the styling and finding the right dresses and, and thinking through the right location and, and spend some time finding that loca- they wanna do a couple outdoor sessions in the spring when everything's actually green here.
I've had the time to do that.
If I was shooting, I would say even, like, I don't know, two, three, four sessions a week, I would never have the time to do that.
It would be taken up, spread thin between each of those clients.
so, to me, like, having that, that space is, God, just feels so good.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
The mental space especially.
I feel the That mental same.
the creative Yes where we become creative.
That's where we become better photographers and more skilled photographers, more creative, all of it.
Yeah I agree.
Okay, perfect.
Well, thank you, Laura, so much for coming on.
Tell us all about what educational offerings that you have going on right now Yeah.
Thank you for letting me share that.
So I have I do have Get Rooted.
Get Rooted is closed now, will probably be closed until November.
I probably won't open it up again until November for the next cohort to mastermind to, to really dive into IPS and all of the things that we've talked about today to really, you know, create the right automation, to create that right service.
You know, have it feel like a quiet luxury vibe all of those things.
What I do have always available, and I would love to offer your listeners a, a code for it, is The Art of Selling.
The Art of Selling is something that I created from Get Rooted, I just started to realize that, that some people fully have the capacity to be able to learn how to sell without needing to spend four, five, $6,000 on a coach.
You can absolutely, you know, take this course and it's, it's step by step.
It teaches you everything that you need to know to step into it with, with courage and, and confidence and have that system in place.
And so I'll give you guys a code that you guys can, can give your audience to, to purchase that and get $100 off of it.
Sounds good.
We'll put that in the show notes for all your listeners Yeah.
Sounds good.
Yeah, this has been such an amazing conversation.
I know we went a little long 'cause we just really enjoyed talking to you, so thanks for all your time today.
have loved it.
Thank you so much for having me on, both of you guys.
All right.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for spending time with us today on the Luxe and Legacy Podcast.
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