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Therapy or Coaching: Which is Right for You? · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. Today, I'm your host. I am Michael Diorio. And joining me is Michael Pizzullo. And today's episode is called Coaching or Therapy, which is right for you. And we'll be exploring how to define coaching and therapy, the primary goals for each of them, some of the key differences, the similarities and how they overlap, and then how to determine which is the best option for you and how they can actually work together in some cases. What we want you to get out of this episode is to better understand both modalities so that you can take the next steps in getting whatever support you need. So joining me today is Michael Pizzullo, a licensed marriage and family therapist located in West Hollywood, California. In his practice, Michael works extensively with the LGBTQIA community, with a specific focus on gay men. Thank you for coming back to the show, Michael.
• 0:59
  Speaker B: Thank you for having me for round two.
• 1:01
  Speaker A: Yeah, Round two, the first episode, if you guys missed it, was on sexual abuse. Actually, some of you might also recognize Michael and I from the workshop that we, by the time you're listening to this, would have recently done about compare and despair and taming your inner critic. So we've been working together quite a bit now, Michael. Yeah, I know.
• 1:15
  Speaker B: And you just can't get enough of me.
• 1:17
  Speaker A: I know. It's the mic. And by the way, guys, if you're watching and you're wondering why I smile every time I say his name is. Because just off camera, I was just saying how his name sometimes for me is hard. Even though I'm Italian, I. I say it the wrong way. So if you're wondering why, we're laughing. That's why. Yeah.
• 1:30
  Speaker B: And it's the whole world, not just you.
• 1:32
  Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, so to our viewers and listeners, if you're new here, if this is the first episode that you're. You're coming onto the gay band Going Deeper podcast for, then we would first of all say welcome to you, and we invite you to subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you're listening to us on your favorite podcast platform, please do subscribe there and leave us a five star rating and a beautiful review, which will help us get into the ears of people who need this, especially this particular episode. Okay, so I always like to start these episodes with why I wanted to do this episode. And so, as a coach, life coach, one of the Most common questions I get is, what do you do? And how is that different from therapy? So I spent a lot of time over the last five years describing this. So part of this is selfish. So I could just say, hey, listen to this episode, and that'll answer all your questions. So I think people generally know the idea of therapy. They kind of get it. Like, that's just, you know, something in our culture that is pretty well established. Established, but not many people know what coaching is. And when I describe it, they're like, oh, okay, so you're a therapist? And I'm like, no, I'm not a therapist. But I can understand why they might think that because there are quite a few similarities. So we will get a bit into that later. So I really wanted to create this episode specifically though, for the person out there who googled life coaching or therapy question mark and then found this episode. Because a lot of guys out there.
• 2:50
  Speaker B: A lot of people out there.
• 2:51
  Speaker A: Never mind guys. A lot of people out there want support but aren't quite sure where to turn or where to start. And so today we have me, Michael Diorio, a life coach. And by the way, guys, this is my full time career. I've been doing life coaching specifically for the last five years. And before that I spent 13 years in the corporate world where I did leadership coaching with employees. Now I'm a life coach, so it's a lot more personalized in nature. I still do coaching, of course, for my clients who do need it. So we have me, a life coach, and then we have Michael, the other Michael, who is a licensed therapist. For how long? Michael, how long have you been doing therapy For?
• 3:27
  Speaker B: Uh, eight years.
• 3:28
  Speaker A: Eight years. Amazing.
• 3:29
  Speaker B: Eight years. Yeah.
• 3:30
  Speaker A: Yeah. So together we have both of our brilliant minds, and we're both gay, and we both work primarily with. With gay men, specifically both of our minds here to talk about this. All right, now we've got a few caveats that I want to just lay out there before we jump in. Number one, we are not speaking on behalf of all coaches or all therapists. I am but one coach and Michael is but one therapist. So we are not here to speak on behalf of all. Okay? There are a lot of different modal. Even within coaching, even within therapy, there are a lot of styles, types, expertise, right? So everyone's a little bit different. And every practitioner, that's what you want to call us, brings their own flavor and their own expertise and experience. Okay? Also, I want you guys to know caveat number two, that it's not necessarily either or Coaching or therapy. This is not A versus it could be. And. Right. And it's okay if, as you're listening to this, you kind of need a little bit of this and a little bit of Colton B. Right. So we'll touch on that a bit further where there might be overlap. Thirdly, I want to note that not everyone has access to therapy or coaching due to cost or availability in your area, especially for people who are queer. So there are other areas and other ways you can get support. Some things that come to mind offhand are counseling and mentoring. And I'm sure there are other things as well. So I just wanted to mention that as well. And finally, as you're listening to this episode, I want you guys to know that, you know, whatever works for you depends on you. And I would say, as someone who's done both coaching and therapy, your connection to that person, to that practitioner. So as you listen, today, I want you to consider your own individual needs, your own circumstances and your own preferences. Okay. Anything you'd want to add to the caveats there, Michael?
• 5:06
  Speaker B: You said it all. It's perfect. Awesome.
• 5:08
  Speaker A: Okay, so let's start off with definitions. Just the basic definitions. How would each of us describe or define, rather, therapy and coaching? So why don't I let the therapist define therapy for us?
• 5:22
  Speaker B: Yeah. So. Well, traditionally, therapy was the exploration of the unconscious mind, was how it was originally designed back in, like, the Freudian era, which is still true to a large degree. I think that people tend to go to therapy when they're wrestling with some issue that they haven't been able to solve on their own or with their existing resources. So that's when they'll pull on someone else.
• 5:45
  Speaker A: Usually.
• 5:45
  Speaker B: It's obviously something that's affecting their emotional wellbeing.
• 5:49
  Speaker A: Okay, and how would you define coaching?
• 5:52
  Speaker B: So I've worked with a coach once, career coaching, and my introduction to coaching was. So as a therapist, when you work with someone, there often are other providers working with them too. Most common is a psychiatrist who's doing medication. Sometimes you coordinate with, like, a medical doctor. So there are different resources. My first exposure to coaching was actually when I was working in addiction treatment. A lot of people had sober coaches. That was an extremely common thing. It's a common thing for affluent people because it's extremely expensive. And that's a very particular type of coaching. Because you're with them all day and you're. You're really, like, in their life. It's not like you're with them 24 7. It's usually two people who switch off, it's really to guardrail someone against their sobriety early on. So there's that. And then I've also experienced people that were working with like executive or career coaches. So it was really specific about. And the coaches seemed to have a very specific niche about the career they coached on. It wasn't just, I can coach any career, it was, I coach entertainment professionals, stuff like that.
• 6:52
  Speaker A: Yep, got it. Okay, cool. So I will tell you how I define it and you can correct me, of course, where I may not get it right. Okay. So for me, the way when people ask me what's the difference with therapy and coaching, how I like to say it is, you know, therapy really focuses on healing emotional and psychological wounds. A lot of therapists, a lot of types of therapy do spend time in the past, in the client's past, patient's past, whatever you want to call it. And there's a lot of healing, trauma, healing underlying issues or dysfunctions. You know, one thing that therapists do that coaches do not is to diagnose and treat mental illness. That's definitely not within the realm of coaching. We're not licensed to do that. So the way that I like to think of it is it is a way to help clients who are suffering and in a lot of pain reach a baseline level of functioning and well being. Whereas with coaching, the way I would define it, my kind of coaching is it's very future oriented. Of course, we talk about the past, we look at the past. We need to make sense of the past. Yes, but only insofar as how it's going to impact our future. So coaching is really designed to help clients set and achieve personal or professional goals. It's geared towards more people who are already at a functioning fairly well mentally and emotionally and want to grow and develop or enjoy some kind of greater satisfaction in either one particular area of life or just in life overall. So that's how I would define it. What do you think?
• 8:18
  Speaker B: Yeah, I like that. And I like the thing you added at the end too, about people who are doing coaching seem to be at a relative, you know, healthy mental health place that you're not meeting someone when they're in a very acute area or really unraveling or dealing with like extreme symptoms of a condition. I think that's a really good caveat to add.
• 8:39
  Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of people will show up with me on a consultation and it'll be very clear that they do need that. And I will just tell them, like, hey, listen, this coaching isn't it's going to be a waste of your time, my time and your money. Because I think what you might need is more of that, really. Hands on. Get to the core of what you're suffering or the core of the pain there. And the great news is, you know, I have a lot of coaches or, sorry, therapists in my Rolodex, shall we say, that I can refer them to. So, you know, by all means, if you do end up on a call with me, don't worry, I'm not going to steer you astray. I do like to offer support from other people where I can. So, Michael, what would you say then are the primary goals of therapy?
• 9:17
  Speaker B: You know, it's interesting. So when someone reaches out for therapy, sometimes there's a very clear sense of, I'm struggling with this, or there's some sort of impetus for them seeking out help. Sometimes it's like, I've been struggling with this for 20 years, but now I just. It's too much or it's a new thing. So, you know, there can be that, but sometimes there isn't, like a quote unquote, presenting problem. People don't always come in. And I know for myself too, when I went to therapy when I was younger, for the first time, I knew I wasn't feeling well, but I didn't really know what was wrong. I didn't know. And. And I think one thing that frustrated me, it was this idea of, well, where is the suffering coming from? And I thought, well, that's why I'm here, because I have no idea. You know, it took me like two years to get to that point. So if someone had asked me, like, what's your goal? What's bothering you? I was like, I don't have a clue. And it wasn't because I was withholding it, I just wasn't. I wasn't sure yet. So. And then the other thing too, I would say is that almost always whatever gets someone in the door is one thing, but once they're there and they start doing the work, so much more would be revealed. So much more. And the original thing may not be very relevant anymore.
• 10:23
  Speaker A: That's very true in coaching as well. Or as we start looking like, let's say, they come in for like a goal, a specific goal. Okay, we're gonna work on your dating life. For whatever reason, of course, we dig deep and we find all the baggage in the previous traumas and we do end up there. So I agree with that. Whatever people come in for, whatever the consultation is about usually after a few sessions there's always more layers, which is interesting. But I love that about our work.
• 10:46
  Speaker B: Yeah. And then. Oh, the other thing that I think. Tell me what you think. But I don't know if coaches do this. But a big part of also, you know, therapy, there's so many different styles. Right. But therapists that are more depth oriented, the ones that you'll see once a week on a long term basis, kind of a thing where you're really doing deeper work. There's also a big emphasis focused on the relationship between you and the person you're working with. So you explore that space too, of what is it like for you to discuss this with me? There's a big emphasis on that because we know that people project things, that things get enacted. So there's a really big emphasis on that in the therapeutic space. Unless you're doing like a very short, like 8 week CBT thing, then forget it. They don't care. They don't have time. But if you do a longer term exploration, there is a very big emphasis on that and it's extremely valuable.
• 11:36
  Speaker A: Yeah, good. Yeah, that's a good point. Okay, so those would be the primary goals for therapy. I will attempt to list some primary goals for coaching. And this is really hard because I know there's going to be some coaches listening like, no, that's not true. Okay, so for coaching, I would say personal growth is a big goal. So again, just in general wanting to feel more confident is a big one that I deal with a lot. Building self confidence from within. Then there's things like goal setting, strategizing. So if you come in with a specific. Some clients will come in with a specific goal they want to accomplish. Other ones just want overall, like life general. I call it general life coaching. Just like overall life stuff. But for the people who do have a specific goal, then it's like, okay, what's the goal? What do we want to create here? For example, writing a book or starting a business. Okay, then what we'll do is we strategize all the things that need to happen, take the action steps. There's a lot of accountability, which is one thing people love about coaching is the accountability aspect. So there's actual goal setting and achieving those goals and then what I would call just creating an intentional life that makes you feel satisfied. So again, we're not really solving a problem per se. We're just looking at your life saying, okay, if it feels a bit out of whack, maybe that's the problem. And like getting a really intentional about what it is, you're doing what you want from life and then going about it and achieving that.
• 12:50
  Speaker B: Yeah, I like it.
• 12:51
  Speaker A: Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about what kinds of issues or goals people would typically bring into each modality.
• 12:59
  Speaker B: So I think one thing that's so confusing when you go get mental health help is that therapists are extremely different and there's different theories, but rarely are you going to meet someone who's just like a one lane person who only does. I mean, every once in a while I know someone who's like, I do DBT and that's it. So if you come to me, that's what you're going to get. Almost everyone is going to have some sort of eclectic mix, which means that they've studied a bunch of stuff and they've chosen the things that they like the best. And when they meet someone, they try to tailor an approach that works for them of the different tools that they've learned, which I think is. Makes a lot of sense.
• 13:36
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 13:36
  Speaker B: But I think on the other end of it, like on the consumer side, when you go to therapy, I think it's really hard because, you know, you're struggling, but you don't exactly know what solution you need. So. And it's not like, you know, I feel like with a doctor you can kind of do some research and kind of get a sense of, oh, I should go see a gastroenterologist or whatever it's called. But with a therapist, like, you're never going to be able to just learn on the theories on your own and determine which is right for you. So ideally you get some referrals, do some research, do some consult calls, and when you present what you're struggling with, ideally the therapist that you talk to will say, you know, yes, I can help you, or I think I can help you, or no, let me hand you to someone who is the right person for you.
• 14:18
  Speaker A: Right. Makes sense. Yeah. Which is kind of like what I was saying with coaching. So people end up on my doorstep and I have to say, oh, no, sorry, you know, I'm not the right one for you right now. Okay, so what are some of the things that you specifically deal with? Like when you think of your, you call them clients or patients?
• 14:31
  Speaker B: I say clients. I. Yeah, I don't like either word, to be honest. Or clients.
• 14:35
  Speaker A: Yeah, a homeline client. So when you think of your client base, what kinds of things do you, are you working on? Do you guys work on usually?
• 14:42
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So I Mean, I think at the top of the pyramid, like most people come in and they're either having anxiety or they're depressed. That's kind of like how things tend to be manifesting in someone's life. And then obviously if you go deeper, I think in terms of, and there's like levels of acuity too. Right. So I think higher up would be like relationship struggles, self esteem, like work stress, you know, navigating family issues. And then if you go a little deeper, you're going to start to hit on like trauma is really common obviously in our community. And then further down you're going to hit like substance use is also super common and that has levels of degree too. So stuff like that.
• 15:18
  Speaker A: Yeah, very interesting. Yeah, that makes sense. That's, that's kind of what I would expect from a gay therapist. So for me, again, because I'm a general life coach, it really does. It's so varied. But that's what I love about my job. Like no client is the same and no call on Monday is the same, which is so fun for me. I personally quite like that. So. Yeah, And I just want to make a note here. Like I call myself a general life coach, but I coach specifically gay men. There are coaches, like Michael has said earlier, that are very specific and they coach like content creators or executives or there's weight loss coaches or personal finance coaches. So if you have a very, very specific need, I'm sure you can find a coach specifically for that. Okay. But I'll talk about some of the common things that I deal with in my coaching. So I think the biggest thing overall, like under the surface is always going to be some form of I want to feel more self confident. And then I'm like, okay, well you know, for what, what are you going to do with that? Confidence is one of the questions I'll ask. And it's usually to accomplish something. Right? So, oh, I really want to start a business, or I want to have the confidence to leave my marriage, or I want to have the confidence to change careers or whatever that is, advance my career, get a promotion. So that is a big piece of it. I would say that's probably one of the most foundation of the coaching is always some kind of confidence building, self esteem building. But if there is a specific goal and they come saying, okay, I want to start a business, then we work a lot with motivation, you know, procrastination, time management, strategizing. I've helped clients get jobs. I've helped clients find love and relationships. I've Helped them quit jobs and travel the world. One of my former clients now is traveling the world after having quit his job. So I'm really happy for him. I've helped clients leave their marriages and start over. So it works both ways, right? I've helped them launch businesses. So that's a big piece. And actually as I'm saying this, life transitions. I think that's another one that I see on my, in my concepts a lot is people show up saying, okay, I've just come out, now what? Or I just broke up with my husband or boyfriend, now what? I want to leave my job or I just got fired or I just got laid off, now what? So it's some kind of life transition. One of my clients now is just getting into retirement age and so he's hired me and we're going to like plan the next, you know, 10, 20 years of his life. Like, what does that mean? What does retirement mean? What does it look like, you know, the identity piece, like who is the man you are becoming and how do you want that to look in your life? So there's a lot of that. And then specifically with the gay stuff, there's a lot of sessions about dating, relationships, apps, couples. I coach a lot of couples. Actually a lot of people don't know this, but I coach couples on opening their relationship. So doing so very consciously and intentionally. So navigating, consensual, non monogamy, making friends is a big one that I see a lot. I think people struggle with connection in the gay community and so it's finding that authentic connection, not just romantic but platonic as well. I've helped a lot of my clients with coming out varying degrees. As we know. Coming out is a process, not a one time thing. So integrating their sexuality or their, their gay self, using air quotes here, with their full life so they can have a whole integrated full life. And then the other one I would say is, you know, people will just get on the call and say I'm fine. I just, I have a feeling there's just more to life than this. Like similar to what you were saying, Michael. Like they don't come with a problem, like nothing's wrong. They're just like. I heard this idea of life coaching and I just, I'm curious about what that could look like for me because I don't know, there's gotta be more to life than this. So those are some of the main ones that I deal with.
• 18:37
  Speaker B: There are a lot of people too who are successful and high functioning, but they deal with some sort of chronic mental health issue, whether they've got, like, bipolar disorder or some sort of chronic depression or something like that that they need help with. You know, that's like a. And I think, you know, I think it's such an American thing, too. But we always want to fix things and solve things, and there are a lot of dynamics people live with or conditions or whatever you want to call it, that it's not about solving them. It's about managing them.
• 19:04
  Speaker A: Coping. Managing. Yeah.
• 19:05
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 19:06
  Speaker A: Yeah. Finding healthy coping strategies. Yeah.
• 19:08
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 19:09
  Speaker A: Fantastic point. Okay, so before we move on to the next section, I want to just pause here for our viewers and listeners. If you guys have any questions for us, please do. If you're watching us on YouTube, put them in the YouTube comments. Michael and I will be reviewing those comments, and we'll be responding to you there. So go ahead and do that. And then I also want to take a minute here to remind all of our viewers and listeners to join us on the last Thursday of every month in the Gay Men's Brotherhood, we have our sharing circles, where you have a chance to share your experiences on the topic of the month that we have in the Facebook group. We also have what we call our connection circles, which happen on the second Thursday of every month. And these are smaller, more intimate breakout rooms where you can discuss, again, the topic of the month with other members of the community. So what we do is we put you in breakout rooms of three. You have about an hour to just chat, and it's a lot more organic and unstructured. So if you're interested in any of these events, please do go to www.gaymen's brotherhood.com and check out our events section to RSVP. All right, let's go into some of the similarities and differences, Michael. So how do therapy and coaching overlap?
• 20:10
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, obviously, in terms of goal setting, wanting to improve my life, having. You know, if you go to therapy, there's obviously a part of you that's invested in your future and wanting to get better or coaching. Right. Because you have the motivation to pick up the phone or walk in the door. People, I think, who have. Who have resigned or completely given up on getting better often don't try. They don't even make an effort because they've already given up, which is sad. But I think anyone who shows up, even if they're really struggling, there's a part of them that's still invested in their future and their wellness. So I think those are the big similarities, I could be wrong, but my sense is that people who may gravitate more towards coaching are really looking for someone to hold them accountable and be specific about, like, a direction they want to go in toward. And not everyone who comes to therapy wants that, you know, But I feel like the more we talk about it, the overlaps really do kind of crisscross and, like, they separate, but then they come back and.
• 21:07
  Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I. I would agree with everything you said. So both are with respect to your mental and emotional health, for sure. Both are about setting goals. Both are, you know, there is some kind of investment in your future. The kind of coaching that I do is very, very similar to cbt, cognitive behavior therapy. So coaching I do is very much based on, like, your thoughts and your. How your thoughts affect your feelings and your actions. Like, all of this, the, you know, the narratives we tell ourselves and how that affects you, and it's just that entire head and heart space that we talk about, which is, again, very similar to what you would talk about in therapy. Right. And I would say both of them are about being more intentional in your life.
• 21:46
  Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. And I think particularly when someone comes into therapy, like, for example, if someone comes into therapy and they're in a really raw, unregulated emotional space, you're not going to just sort of sit back and let them just sort of, you know, unstructured process things, or you're not going to dive into the deep end. Like, no way. You have to go into more of a CBT place, at least to start, because you have to give people a little bit of a sense of framework and structure and give them some practical stuff to just sort of hold on to before you just, you know, you dive deep right away, I just realized.
• 22:19
  Speaker A: Something for our audience out there who does not know what CBT is, can you just quickly let them know?
• 22:24
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah. So CBT is called cognitive behavioral therapy. And the way that it started was basically the original paradigm of psychology, which we still hold onto, is that the mind is, like, 10% conscious, 90% unconscious. The therapeutic process was all about exploring the unconscious part. The problem was that it takes a long time and it's expensive and so on and so forth. So there was this emphasis on how can we be more strategic and get, you know, do this a little quicker, basically. And so they came up with this concept that our thoughts and our feelings and our behaviors, if you think of a triangle, are, you know, reinforce one another. And so if you change one, the other two will follow. So that's how you can have an influence on your life. Obviously people want to feel better. That's what they're trying to influence. So basically it's if you want to feel better, you have to change how you're thinking or changing how you're behaving. Personally, I think that the power lies in your behavior. Like the people say that, like, act your way into feeling better, act your way into better thinking. If you take an action and move a muscle and take a step, that will influence how you think and how you feel the other way around. I think it's very useful to consider my thinking patterns and so on and so forth. But I think it's slower. It's a slower process to change my thought process.
• 23:38
  Speaker A: Yeah, fantastic. And that's a great example of overlap because I would do the exact same kinds of things with, with my clients. We look at how that triangle, you know, I would tie it into the outcome. So what I would add to that is if we're focusing on a goal is what action, what behavior is going to create the outcome? Because every action is a consequence. Right. So if you want that result or that outcome, let's work backwards. What are the actions you need to take? How do you need to feel to take that action? And then what is that mindset that needs to be there? So yeah, there's some overlap right there. What are some other tools that we both would use?
• 24:09
  Speaker B: So when I think of, you know, all the therapeutic modalities, the two modalities that are going to be very structured and very goal oriented would be cbt, which we would just went over. And the other one that's extremely popular is dialectical behavioral therapy, which is sort of like an evolution of cbt. And it's very evidence based and very structured. It's used a lot in treatment facilities and so on and so forth. I guess the way I would describe it is that DBT to dialectical behavioral therapy focuses more on emotional regulation skills. And then also it ties in a mindfulness component in a stronger way. And it has a little bit more. Has more philosophical paradigms tied into. They talk a lot about this, like the dialectic of acceptance and change. And there's different like concepts that they sort of invite you to bring into your life in a different way.
• 25:02
  Speaker A: And then I'm sure a question that you get a lot is how do those two differ from psychotherapy?
• 25:07
  Speaker B: So I think when people think of traditional psychotherapy, they think of talk therapy.
• 25:12
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 25:13
  Speaker B: And the good thing is that you can marry the two, you can Grab a CBT tool or DBT tool anytime. So it's not like they don't contradict one another. But I think when people often think of traditional therapy, they think of stereotype of. I. I come in and I complain about the horrible week that I had, and my boss is, you know, whore. I don't know if I can curse, but my cousin. My boss is a terrible person. Okay. So my boss is an asshole, and my boyfriend's difficult, and da, da, da, da, da. And the therapist, like, nods along and says, I understand. And then you feel better because you just sort of vented, and it doesn't really make any major improvements in your life.
• 25:45
  Speaker A: Yeah. So I did, as I said, cbt. But I think of what most people think of psychotherapy is the show Sopranos. I don't know if you watch that. Yeah, that's what I imagine.
• 25:54
  Speaker B: Amazing.
• 25:54
  Speaker A: Sitting there and, you know, and she just listens and she's very patient, and she asks a question here and there. Good question. Right. And that's. I guess that's another similarity is coaches and therapists know how to ask the right questions because we do want you to find those answers within. Right.
• 26:08
  Speaker B: Yes. And I think this, where it comes down to the style of the person you're working with is. I mean, you could have four therapists, and they could seem like they're on different planets.
• 26:18
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 26:18
  Speaker B: Truly in the same building. Just in terms of the way they approach it can be so different.
• 26:24
  Speaker A: Interesting.
• 26:24
  Speaker B: So I really always stress to people it's always about finding the therapist or the coach that's right for you.
• 26:30
  Speaker A: Yeah. Totally agree. Yeah. I love when I have clients who have therapists and they will come in to, like, a coaching session. Oh, my God. I just. I had this great therapy session, and, like, they're so excited to share with me what they've learned in therapy or whatever insight they just have so that we can then take and apply it. And it's really good. So, I mean, we'll get a bit more into that later when we talk about when both might be useful. Let's take a minute to talk a little bit about the sessions. So let's kind of uncover for our viewers and listeners out there what happens in a session. Tell us. I mean, obviously, we only know you can only speak to yours, but what's the vibe in a typical Michael therapy session?
• 27:08
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So I would say, to start, obviously, you get a sense of, like, what brings you in, what's troubling you, and, you know, you want to get all the Details and then get a sense of, do I think I have possible solutions for this person? I will say, and I fumbled this before. When you try to over explain to someone how therapy is going to go, it's like when someone tries to explain a game you never played before, it can get a little confusing. Yeah, if someone's done it before, then it's. They kind of get the idea. But so I, I try not to do that and just said like, let's just take it one step at a time. But so anyway, so you get a sense of what they're looking for. And if you think you can help, then what you want to do is you want to do an assessment. So you want to get like a full history of this person. Like, I'm talking like day one. Like, what were your relationships like with your parents? What were your parents with each other? You know, you want to get like intergenerational stuff, culture, trauma, where did you immigrate from? All that kind of stuff. You want to just get as much information as you possibly can. Because I think there's a mistake that we think that if someone has an important detail in their history, they're going to tell us, but they may not know that something is important. So you just have to keep asking and keep prying. And then you collect everything and then you can start to make sense of it. So that's the, I would say like the beginning phase of it. And also too, once you get all that information, then you really want to be clear of again, like, can I help this person? And are they right for therapy? Do they need like a higher level of care, which is very common, do they need to go to a treatment facility or an outpatient program, or do they need to see a psychiatrist first? Stuff like that you want to be very clear about before you just jump in. So then if therapy session is going to be different in the sense of you say, hi, how are you doing? Whatever, and it asks you sort of wait and see, what are they going to bring up? Okay, what's important to them today? Some people just jump in and go with it. Some people kind of want you to prompt them. But there's a different style. It's not like, okay, so we talked about this last week, what's going on now? You want to give people the space. And I've noticed too that it's almost like if you color in the lines too much for them, you can ruin it. So if you hang back and let people take their turn and take their time, often that's when things start to emerge that are really valuable and that you weren't expecting.
• 29:19
  Speaker A: Very interesting. And so I want to know, is the Michael that we have here today, is this how you are in a therapy session, or do you have, like, a different Persona?
• 29:28
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 29:29
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 29:29
  Speaker B: No, no, no. I think I'm very much myself. I would say this, like, you know, how we all have different parts of us. I definitely lead with the parts of me that are the most compassionate and the most analytical and critical and calm. Like, in that moment, I'm sort of eliciting those qualities that I have. But I'm human. Like, I get impatient, I'm difficult, I get angry, all that stuff. And, like, those things still exist. I just. They tend to take a backseat at that exact time. So I would say in the sense of, you know, when you're working with your therapist, you are getting their authentic self. You're just not seeing every shade of them.
• 30:04
  Speaker A: Right. I think, of course, then that makes perfect sense because it's a professional relationship. Right? Yeah.
• 30:09
  Speaker B: Right. But there's going to be a lot of authenticity to it also. I mean, otherwise you're just talking to a robot, and that's not very therapeutic.
• 30:16
  Speaker A: Yeah. I love this question. It's another one that I get often, like, people just sometimes are like, what's it like? Like, what's coaching like? And that's why I love having clients give reviews, because I think it's just more powerful that a client explains what it is. But I would say, and you and I and Michael have talked about this in the past off camera, but I love coaching because I get to be a collaboration. I get to be a partner, and it feels like we're doing, like, a project together, and it's really fun, and we kind of. We both get our hands dirty and we're strategizing together. And sometimes I'm in full coach mode, and sometimes people have said this to me. Like, I kind of get into, like, you know, big brother mode in. In a good way. Like, I'm just offering the kind of sage advice that your. Your big brother would give you, but it's the big brother you never had. And I get that a lot. Like, oh, my gosh, you're like the best friend I never had or the big brother I never had or the dad I never had. So it can sometimes feel more like mentoring. And again, everyone, I'm just talking about me specifically. I don't. Like other coaches are all very different, but I like to go back and forth. I can be in full on Coach mode. I can get into that, like, big brother mentorship mode. I can be very soft and gentle and listen and compassionate. And one thing about me is I'm also known for being a bit direct and obs. So we call it in coaching. We don't get into the pool. I don't know if you guys. If you use that same thing, like, if a client is in, like, their pool of whatever is going on in their life, we don't get in, like, I'm just like, okay, well, I don't necessarily believe everything. I just see it all as a story. And then we try to get to the facts. So there's a lot of directness. I think people appreciate that. And people will say that to me because I think they listen to the podcast and they will come onto the console saying, I listen to your podcast, and I just. I know everything about you, and I just need someone like you in my life as I go through this phase. And, you know, I can just tell you're the right person for me. So I think that's fun. If you like that, then, you know, I might be your guy. I will say as well, one thing I love about coaching relationships is that it is. Can be a bit more informal. So we laugh, we have fun. We have, like, inside jokes. We've been working together for a long time. We share things. They know things about my life. They know where I'm at. They, you know, you know a bit about my personal life, if it makes sense. So, like, we're not like two buddies having coffee here, but, like, where it makes sense to their needs, I will share some of my own journey. Or they'll just flat out ask me, like, what would you do? Or what have you done? And for me, it's perfectly okay to share that. Whereas I think with you, Michael, there's a line there, right?
• 32:33
  Speaker B: Yes. Yes. And you can still be very human. Like, so I'm very clear with people about how I react to them, what's going on between us. So, for example, like, one thing as a therapist is you always want to be mindful of how does this person relate to me? Like, are they treating me like a big brother? Are they treating me like their dad? Are they treating me like some bitchy, mean gay guy? Are they treating me like, I don't trust you? You know, like, all those things start to come out, and so you want to be aware of it and start to take that as information of what is this person's bringing into the room in terms of how they trust people. And relate to people in their life. That's very valuable. And I don't ever want to dispel it and say, oh, no, no, no, no. I'm so nice and I'm so friendly. Don't. Don't think. I mean, because it's not about me. I want to make sense of what, what this means to them. So. So I think that the role of interpretation is so valuable. But with that being said, traditionally therapy was completely blank. Don't say a word about yourself. And I think, to be honest, I think in this era, we've gone way too far the other way. I think it's gotten way too far the other way. But we know that the blank slate thing is very useful for some people, but not for everyone. A lot of people do need to feel like there's something more to it. Um, so as an example, like, you know, obviously Trump was reelected this past week, and I'm in West Hollywood, so it's very, very liberal area. People are quite upset, and so on and so forth. So it's been a big topic of conversation. So it's a tough line. I know some therapists that are very bold, like, these are my views. This is what I think. You know, so on and so forth. I won't do that. I mean, I'll. I'll cop to, like, I'm a liberal person and, you know, I give, like, a vague understanding, so I'm not. It's not like withholding, and that's. I think that's fine, but I don't think you want to go into the places. Like, let's just commiserate about the election together. Letting them know how deeply affected I am personally doesn't help them. That's not useful. They can get that from anywhere else. You know, and truly, if. If I barely care or if I am so upset that I'm tearing my hair out and about to move to Canada, they don't need to know that. That's not useful.
• 34:32
  Speaker A: Yeah, Interesting. If you've gone through something over and over again with a. With a client, do you say, okay, we're, we've already covered this, like, or do you kind of go down with them? Like, do you go down that path with them and help them again?
• 34:44
  Speaker B: Yeah. No.
• 34:45
  Speaker A: No.
• 34:45
  Speaker B: So I will start to interpret it. So it seems like you're confronting a stuckness. Let's talk about what it's like to be stuck. Because a lot of people will say, like, to your point, help me. You give them help, they don't do it. And it Just goes round and round, round.
• 34:57
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 34:58
  Speaker B: So if you keep doing it, you're going to get annoyed and frustrated because everything you do, all your efforts are going nowhere. So I would do is start to go into the stuckness with them of what is it like for you to be stuck? How do you tolerate being stuck? It seems like the way you tolerate being stuck is just to ask for advice that you don't take. But what else goes on with you when you're stuck?
• 35:18
  Speaker A: Interesting. Okay, so this is a good example. What I would do is say, we covered this last time. Do you remember? And they'll say, yes. And I'll say, and what did I. What was the conclusion we came to? And then they would repeat it. And I'm like, okay, so then why is this hard for you? Like, why? I guess this is your version of what is the stuckness. I'll be like, okay, well, why are you not taking this action that's going on? And of course there's going to be some level of fear of something is keeping them stuck, and then we can talk. Then we go to the next layer. Okay, so now we know what we need to do, but there's a fear that's preventing you from doing it. Why is that fear there? So that's kind of the way that we would do it. So again, very similar, guys. It's kind of like you get to the same point but a different way, and sometimes that way crisscrosses. That's kind of how I imagine it.
• 36:00
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And there. I think there's so many ways to go about to. You know when someone does that thing where they reject advice they're asking for, you can ask them, does this happen in other areas of your life? It probably does. And then how do they react to it? When you do this at work, how do people respond? And it's usually going to be people get frustrated and annoyed. So, you know, you can. You can really kind of flesh it out and make sense of it rather than just, like, reacting to it. But I think people have a really difficult time tolerating feeling stuck and feeling confused and not knowing what to do. Because in my opinion, when I know what to do, when I see the path forward, that's amazing. But there's so many times in life where I don't know and I have to find a way to tolerate the confusion and the uncertainty and be brave and see if I can take a step forward. Anyway.
• 36:48
  Speaker A: Yeah, well said. This has been so insightful, even for me. Happy we're having this Conversation. So I want to invite anyone out there who is maybe a coach or a therapist or just works in mental health emotional support. I want to call you guys as well in the comments, let us know what you guys think the difference is and how you would define these things that we're talking about here. Because again, Michael and I are just two people. So the more. The more providers we have out there chiming in to the conversation, the better. So go ahead and I invite you to leave your comments in YouTube and of course, on our podcast as well. And for our audience out there who wants to accelerate their personal development journey, please do check out our coaching collection. And you can learn to heal and empower yourself at your own pace by getting access to our two courses, Healing youg Shame, Building Better Relationships that are Part of the Gaiman's Brotherhood. And then we also have 45 coaching videos created by us, Matt, myself and Callan that are in four different areas. So body positivity, relationships, self confidence, and building community. If you actually want to get an idea for what Matt and I are like as coaches and Matt's a counselor, it's a great way to do that. You have access to all those videos. You can kind of see what we're like in action as we're teaching some of our favorite coaching lessons. So if you want access to that, please head over to Gay Men Going Deeper dot com. All right, let's get to the last question. Which is. Which is right for me? So how can our listeners identify whether therapy or coaching is the right fit based on their current needs? What would you say about that?
• 38:18
  Speaker B: So I guess to start, if you're dealing with any sort of severe emotional dysregulation, severe anxiety, depression, trauma, I would definitely start with a therapist for sure, just to get that, you know, see what's going on there, get a sense if there is a diagnosis or not. Like, you don't want to put the cart before the horse sort of a thing. So I would say that. And then I think just in terms of I really do empathize that it is so hard to know what is the right resource for me. I mean, even now as a therapist, I mean, I still go to therapy, but finding the right person, it's. Even when you have the right resources, it's tough. So do your research. See, you know, and figure out, like, if you want someone in your area and cost and like, kind of narrow it down, you can read people's websites and profiles and get a sense and then do consults. Most people, these Days. I do. I'm sure you do. You know, you do a consult call, you get a little sense of the person and then you can decide to, you know, to book a full session and see. I do think that starting the work with a coach or a therapist is going to be a little bit of a leap of faith. You know, you don't really know how you're going to like it until you try it. But I do think that you can be very mindful and informed and take it one thing at a time, but also talk to a few different people.
• 39:29
  Speaker A: Yeah, there's so many out there. And I think most coaches and therapists out do some kind of consultation, whether it's 15 minutes or, you know, more. It's a great way to get a taste and a flavor and you can ask them whatever questions you might have based on your specific issues or whatever it is you're facing. I would say for people who might consider coaching, if you're considering coaching, I would say for coaching with me or other coaches that I know is a more appropriate choice when, as Michael was saying, you know, you're already functioning well, you're already high functioning or functioning well and you are just looking to elevate some aspect of your life or you have a specific goal. So if your life's pretty good, but you're struggling in your relationships, that's great for coaching. If you're just wanting to feel more self confident overall, that's great for coaching. If you've got professional goals, specific professional goals, that's great for coaching. If you're just looking for greater overall fulfillment in life, life satisfaction, that's great for coaching. The coaching I do is, as I said, very action oriented. So if you like action steps, I give action items, homework, if you want to call it homework. There's accountability checks in our session. So at the beginning of the next session, one of the first things we do is talk about, you know, how did you do with that action item or the actions that we talked about last week? And so there is that accountability. There's always a forward momentum. So if that's what you want, then coaching would be a good structure, I think.
• 40:48
  Speaker B: Yeah. And I think, you know, more importantly, I think it's just so great that we live in this time where we encourage people to work on their wellness and especially too, I think for so long because of the stigma, people wouldn't do any of these things unless it was the most dire circumstance or it was just, you know, if you get ahead of things, it's so much easier, you know, it's so much better. And to be honest, too, you know, people often say, like, if I go to therapy, when is it over? Or when do I get out of here? Or this just goes on forever. But, you know, from my perspective as someone who's gone to therapy quite a lot, I do therapy to improve myself, but also to maintain. I don't want to slip back into an unhealthy place and then have to rebuild again. You know, like, I like the idea of I have practices in my life that keep my wellness going rather than let's just wait for things to fall. I mean, not that they will, but you know what I mean? Like, you can be proactive or you can be reactive.
• 41:40
  Speaker A: Yeah, that is such a great point. I'm so happy you mentioned that. One of my goals as a coach is I don't want you to have to rely on me for the rest of your life. So it's really about teaching tools that you can then use. You know, I even call it self coaching. Right. Like, I will show you if that's the kind of person you are. Like, here's what we're doing. Like, I'm showing you how this thought creates this, you know, feeling which creates this action which is creating this outcome for you. So that way they eventually have those tools so they can do it on their own. A very good point.
• 42:04
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 42:05
  Speaker A: Yeah. We definitely want to empower our clients so that they have these tools and skills going forward.
• 42:11
  Speaker B: Yes. And that there's nothing wrong with doing thing. We all have practices that support our wellbeing. Whether it's like, I'm a race car driver or I go hunting or I do crochet, like, or I go to therapy. Like, there's different things we do that make us feel good that we incorporate into our life. And that's a good thing.
• 42:27
  Speaker A: Absolutely. And so great segue. How can both of these work together? Coaching and therapy. So can you do coaching and therapy at the same time? Is it better to do them one after the other? What do you think?
• 42:37
  Speaker B: So I think when you're collaborating, you just always want to make sure that people are staying in their lanes. And I think that's so important in general. When I used to work in rehabs, like, you really see it there because most clients will have, like, four different therapists, plus cruel facilitators, plus psychiatrists, plus a doctor, plus a case manager. So you're working together, but you really do. If you're giving someone eight different opinions, they're just going to get confused. So you really do have to give a sense of where. If I stay in my lane, I'm going to be so effective. If I try to do everything, it's going to fall flat. So for me, when I'm working with someone who's also working with someone else, I really want to get a sense of what are they doing, what's their work, so that I don't step on their toes or contradict it. And then if I do feel like I have something to offer that's different, then I'll say, let's discuss that now. Let's work that out. So I think. I think you just want to be mindful and clear about it so they're not pointing in different directions. I won't go into it, but I had one situation with a sober coach once who said something that was. Who gave a direction that was just unethical and unhealthy and just nuts. And I didn't know about it until later on. And so when it came up, it really gave me the sense of, okay, I need to know what information you're getting from the other person just to be sure.
• 43:51
  Speaker A: Yeah, I would say I. I do the same thing. So one of the questions I ask right on my consult is, you know, have you done coaching or therapy? And are you currently in coaching or therapy? And I'll ask for the same reason. I'm like, okay, great. Like, you know, let me know what you're doing there so that I'm not stepping on any toes. Cause that's obviously the last thing I want. And then my next question would be, okay, well, where do you see me complimenting this? Like, well, what do you need from me? Exactly. And then we can have a discussion about that. And am I that guy? Is that something I can provide? Is this something I want to provide? So, yes, you as the, you know, client, are the one who has to own that and say, okay, here's what I'm doing with my therapy. I'll give you an example. One of my clients was dealing with trauma and working with this therapist on regulation techniques, how to regulate himself. So once he got to a really good spot there, I think they're only meeting maybe now, like, once a month. What he wanted was, okay, now that I'm okay and I have these techniques, I want some coaching on going forward. Okay, like, now what? He had gone through some trauma and kind of wanted to, like, rebuild his life. Okay. So the rebuilding the life part was me. And so he came and saying, okay, these are like, I'm learning all my emotional regulation techniques, and I'm dealing with a trauma with my therapist. So we don't need to deal with that, Michael. We can deal with the future. And that's an example of how it worked really, really well.
• 45:05
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I think just the collaboration is key, and I'm always happy to. You know, they, like, they sent a release to do a quick chat with the other person, too, just to get a sense of what are you doing? What am I doing? Okay, great. If there's anything that concerns you, we can. You know, I think that's really useful too.
• 45:21
  Speaker A: Now, Michael, there are therapists who also do coaching, so therapy.
• 45:26
  Speaker B: You know, there's a pretty specific frame to it in terms of how it works. Like, you're going to have to meet once a week, sometimes more. And then, you know, people do every other week on an ongoing, you know, basis. If someone wants to do less than that, then they're moving into a realm where it's not exactly therapy anymore. And so every once in a while, that would happen. And so, okay, so it's been a while. We can do once a month. But that always made me a little uncomfortable. So I actually like now calling it coaching. Because when you're someone's therapist, technically you are liable for their mental health and wellbeing. And if I'm only seeing you once a month, I don't really have enough eyes on you to feel comfortable saying that, to be quite honest. So I think it's kind of a nice way to sort of put it into a different lane where. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think. I think we're seeing it more there also, too. Therapists are licensed by state, so it gives them the ability to practice, you know, anywhere. So there's a few things.
• 46:18
  Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, it's great. So what advice would you give someone who is debating and unsure about who to reach out for help or where to start?
• 46:29
  Speaker B: Well, I guess, you know, think about what's going on. Again, if it's. If there's any sort of trauma or severe emotional dysregulation, I would start with therapy just to see and then go from there. But if you're really unsure, I think just do some research and do some consults, see who you click with. You never know. I mean, you. You may think, I really want a trauma therapist. And you may call them and say, actually, this sounds awful. And then you may call a coach and say, oh, this sounds way better for me. Like, you just might not know until you talk to the person.
• 46:58
  Speaker A: Totally yeah. And it's. It is about that connection that we talked about. It really, like, this is someone who you're entrusting with a lot of personal details. You're going to be open to them for a while. So it's really important that you have a really good connection. Absolutely. And you have to trust that they can help you for sure.
• 47:11
  Speaker B: Absolutely.
• 47:11
  Speaker A: That's what I look for. Yeah. When I. I've done cbt and I think I went through maybe three or four, I thought I wanted someone who was gay, and it ended up. I ended up with a hetero woman because I just really liked our connection. Yeah. I'm like my coaches. And I've always had. I've always had a coach. I still do. So let's talk about that first step. I can tell you guys what goes on in a consultation, and maybe Michael can do the same. So I think that first step is the hardest. And so I want to try to like, again, the whole point of this episode is to remove the shroud of unknown and tell you exactly how that works. So my consultations. And speaking only to myself here, mine are. Mine are very generous. They're an hour long. A lot of people have told me that, that usually they're like 50 minutes or half an hour, minor hour. It's on zoom. It's free. I don't have to pay for them. And the reason I like to have the hour is because I really like to, you know, go in and like, the questions I'm asking are like, why did you book the call? Where are you now? Where do you want to be? And then I'm in my head. I'm filling in the details. Okay. Am I the guy to get you there from A to. From A to B? If it's a match, great. We could talk about what the prices are, if it's not. And I'll say, no problem. You know, here's maybe some people that you. You could potentially match with better. And again, unlike other coaches, I do not force any of my clients into a decision on that call. Many of them will sign up right away and say, oh, my God, yeah, this is it. Let's do it. And they'll sign up right away, but I don't make them. It's not like a pushy call where I'm like, okay, you gotta decide right now. I will say one thing about coaching is that it is an investment. It's not covered for a lot of places. Some people do have health spending accounts through their work. And I've had clients Use their health spending account on coaching. That works for some, but it's not something that's covered by the government. Okay, so coaching does cost a bit of money. Again, depends on the coach. So, yeah, we'll talk about what the different programs are, what the different costs are. I do offer discounts for students and seniors. As a therapist, Michael, can you change your pricing or does it have to be like, is it, is it regulated?
• 49:00
  Speaker B: No. So if you are a private therapist and you're private pay like I am, everything's on you. So I can change my price this morning and this evening. I mean, anyone who calls you can set a price with them as long as you obviously let them know. If you're on an insurance plan, the price is dictated by the insurance policy. So then you cannot.
• 49:18
  Speaker A: Okay, got it. Yeah. Good to know. Okay. Yeah, so I can offer discounts, and I do offer discounts for students and seniors and pretty much people that have worked with me in my groups, I offer discounts for them for one on one. So, you know, as a coach, we get to do that. I am my own owner, business owner, so I get to set my own prices, which is really, really nice. So I do one on one. I also do group. Group is great. It's a bit different. I'm starting a new group program in 2020. What year are we in? 2025. It's next year. 2025. Good grief. Okay.
• 49:46
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 49:46
  Speaker A: And so in 2025, I'm starting a new group program. So this is going to be a lot more accessible. It's not one on one. We're going to have a couple sessions a month. One's going to be like an ask me anything style. So you come to the call, you ask whatever questions you want, I'll answer them. Another one's going to be a bit more of a webinar style. So I'll be teaching different topics that are super relevant things that I get a lot of questions on or issues I see a lot of, so body positivity, creating a sense of belonging, community, intro phobia, sexual empowerment, dating confidence, all these things. And then there's going to be one that's a community call where we just get to connect with each other. So the group coaching is a bit more of a community based. It's not so much one on one. And each month we're gonna have some guest speakers. So actually while I have you here, Michael, I wanna invite you in public to be one of the guest speakers for one of my monthly calls.
• 50:29
  Speaker B: I would love to awesome.
• 50:31
  Speaker A: Yeah. So have I met Michael who can come in and lend their expertise as well. So if you're interested in that kind of group, by all means you can get on my email list because I'm only offering this at first to my subscribers to start, and then after that we'll see how it goes. And then what about you, Michael? Where can people find you?
• 50:48
  Speaker B: Yeah, so I'm located in West Hollywood. I have a office. I know a lot of people are only remote, but I'm. I work in person. I have an office on Melrose Avenue. Yeah. And then I do remote work as well, too. Probably still about like maybe 30% or so. So, anyway, so people can, you know, reach out to me online and same thing with you. I do. I do a consult. And for me, it's always about getting a sense of what is this person looking for? Does this match with my work?
• 51:12
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 51:12
  Speaker B: Do they seem motivated and curious? You know, and I always tell people to, like, it's such an important decision to make of who you want to work with and to take it one step at a time. That the first couple meetings can just be one session, see how you feel, second session, see how you feel. And then we can really dig into. There's no commitment. You don't have to buy a bunch. You know, just literally one thing at a time. I think that's very important to me. And do groups as well. I'm actually on the board of the group Psychotherapy association of Los Angeles. I'm very involved in that world. And then in my work. You know, I work a lot with gay men and I do a lot of substance work as well. But modalities that I'm really into recently, I do emdr and I also do ketamine assisted therapy, which has been just. I could go on and on. Fantastic.
• 51:53
  Speaker A: Okay, Maybe that's another episode. Or maybe that's the topic we talk about in my group poll. Yeah.
• 51:58
  Speaker B: Oh, I'd be happy to. I have so much to say.
• 52:00
  Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, good. Well, note that for our notes.
• 52:02
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 52:03
  Speaker A: And I'm going to put your website on the show notes. And that's where the best place to start.
• 52:07
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 52:07
  Speaker A: Okay. What about people who are not in California? Can they work with you?
• 52:10
  Speaker B: So people who are not in California can work with me on like a coaching basis, basically? Yes. Yes.
• 52:16
  Speaker A: Okay, awesome. So I'll put Michael's information in his website there. I'll put mine in there as well. Since I'm also Michael. You can denote mine. Mine's willysmo.com, w l l I S M O that's me. And with me, you can either book the consultation or you can get on my email list, as I said, where I will send you all the details for that group that I'll be running in 2025. All right, Michael, any last words?
• 52:37
  Speaker B: No, I just, I, you know, I. I hope everyone obviously got something out of this and feels a little bit more confident in starting their wellness journey, whatever that looks like to them.
• 52:48
  Speaker A: Yeah, a hundred percent. And you know what, guys? If we didn't answer your question or you still aren't clear, just message one of us, email us, and we'll. We'll answer your question. Okay. Hopefully, at the very least, you'll realize that we're both very friendly and we are both very committed to making sure people get the support they need, whether it's with us or not.
• 53:04
  Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, definitely.
• 53:06
  Speaker A: All right, well, thank you, Michael, for joining us today and for letting your expertise in therapy and all things that I'm. I want to thank our viewers and listeners for sticking with us for the last hour. And reminder, guys, this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating here, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. If you're watching us on YouTube, you can also tap that thank you button, and that will work as well. If you're listening to us on Apple, please subscribe to get early access so you can listen to episodes before they're released. And all this helps us to continue making content for you and supporting our community. So we thank you so, so much in advance and for everything regarding the gay Men's Brotherhood and our events. Please check out gaymansbrotherhood.com all right, guys, have a good one. Bye.