Latest / The Jon and Marc Podcast / How Top Law Firms Fix Broken Lead Flow and Stop Losing Cases

Transcript

How Top Law Firms Fix Broken Lead Flow and Stop Losing Cases · The Jon and Marc Podcast

• 0:00
  Lead plumbing, Lead building analytics.
• 0:03
  My favorite role of yours is. What do you think of it?
• 0:07
  I don't know what you're going to say, but I just know that
• 0:09
  you're always throwing. What I tell people about my job
• 0:11
  is I just kind of do whatever these guys tell me to because
• 0:15
  you have, you have no shortage of ideas and you always bring
• 0:18
  them to me. And I feel like my job is to try
• 0:20
  to make it happen. We're sitting here today with
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  David Sides, the Head of Operations at R Digital.
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  I've known Dave for, gosh, going on 7 years, eight years now at
• 0:40
  this point. We've worked together multiple
• 0:42
  companies. And today, we're going to talk
• 0:45
  about what a Director of Operations actually does at a
• 0:47
  legal marketing agency, more specifically at our legal
• 0:50
  marketing agency. Dave, thanks for joining us.
• 0:54
  Happy to be here, thanks for having me.
• 0:56
  The director of operations role has evolved.
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  You weren't always the director of operations.
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  Well, no. Why don't you tell everybody
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  what your first role was with our company My.
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  First role was as a actually a link builder, something that a
• 1:09
  lot of people may hear about in this industry, but early days of
• 1:14
  our digital, you guys needed link building and that's what I
• 1:17
  was doing. That's how we first met in my
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  first job, I was doing link building for like 3-4 years.
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  I really kind of just honed that craft and found what makes it
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  fun and and how to get the most links.
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  So came to RR Digital five years ago now and built out the link
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  boarding department as me being the only link boarder to start.
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  Yeah, you were actually link building.
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  Yeah. And then built out those
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  processes and what was great about having someone who
• 1:45
  understood the grind of link building, you were able to take
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  the logistical requirements of that role and grind it out day
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  in, day out and learn along the way, like how it actually
• 2:01
  impacts SEO. Cuz it evolved over the years,
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  right? So you know, we go back more
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  than half a decade and link building, but we know it today,
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  right? Was, was very different.
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  Can you talk about like sort of the evolution of link building
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  from when you first started doing it to let's just talk
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  about to like a year ago because then we'll go into like what
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  we've been doing over the past year?
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  OK, So I would say when I first started link building, we were
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  kind of just coming out of the Penguin update.
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  So I actually never got to link build in those days.
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  I wish I did. The Penguin update was basically
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  a free for all. As you know, you could get links
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  on the worst sites you could. They could be invisible and
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  Google didn't know and that could boost your your site and
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  your rankings. I came just out of out of the
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  Penguin update. So we were focused on my first
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  job on getting legitimate links, but it was much easier because
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  basically you just like you could mass e-mail, not have to
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  worry about your emails going through it was so easy.
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  We were getting links. Now within the past, especially
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  two years, these e-mail providers like Google or
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  Microsoft with Gmail and Outlook have gotten so strict that if
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  you're not targeting the right sites in your outreach and your
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  spam rate is just a 1% higher, your emails are not going
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  through. And it's been such a challenge
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  to get over that and make sure the outreach we do is quality
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  outreach and targeted. So yeah, that's one way Stefan
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  got. Harder for those listening who,
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  who don't know what link building actually is at its
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  core. When you look at what makes a
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  site rank on Google or on, on any search engine, it's a
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  combination of I, I like to think of it in like a triangle.
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  You've got the content which tells Google what you should
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  rank for. You've got the technical
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  proficiency of your site, which is can and Google even see that
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  it's there, right? Can it be crawled?
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  Can it be crawled efficiently? And then you've got the things
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  that will make you rank higher, right?
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  And links have always been the core of that.
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  It's, it's definitely evolved over the years, but definitely
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  backlinks are extremely important.
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  And the better the links you have, the more relevant the
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  links you have, the more links you have, essentially the higher
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  you rank. That's like if you had to boil
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  link building down, that's really what it is.
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  In addition to link building, your role has evolved over the
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  past few years, right? And your growth has been
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  exponential. And this is like just a
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  testament to people who are listening, who are like grinding
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  it out in their SEO roles as link builders.
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  Like what can you make out of your job?
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  And it just sort of kept evolving for you.
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  So you went from link building to then you just sort of
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  handling like we call them side projects, like David sides at
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  his side projects, which then eventually became like a more
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  formal operations role. So let's put link building to
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  the side and talk about like the other areas of responsibility
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  that you have as the Head of Operations at Rd.
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  So ahead of operations at Rd. or really any firm is obviously
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  going to be to make sure that everyone has the pieces in place
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  they need to to do their job across all of our departments.
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  So managing the tools, making sure the proper workflows are in
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  place for everything to come through, proper communication,
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  all those basic things that you see specifically for us and in
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  the legal marketing space, things that fall into operations
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  are attribution. Making sure that our clients
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  leads are going into the system are being labeled correctly,
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  which is always a challenge and differs from client to client.
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  But without that, a lot of our work is really just going into a
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  black hole where we don't even really know what's working and
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  what's not working. So attribution is extremely
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  important, making sure lead flow is working, analytics also.
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  So this was something within the past 2:00-ish years, I think we
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  really dove into use a a platform called Domo.
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  Yep, David went to Domopalooza. Domopalooza, I saw T Pain and
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  Shaq. That was pretty awesome, so
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  thank you for that. Taking that work, we do an
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  attribution and then using a tool like Domo and analytics
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  platforms to visualize the data and break it up and slice it and
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  dice it and see what's working and give the people who are
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  making their decisions easy access to this data to make
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  those decisions. Link building, business
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  intelligence and analytics, visualization, which we
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  originally were doing for ourself.
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  And then we wound up realizing like firms need this stuff to
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  survive. One of the things that we do
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  when we onboard a new firm is we figure out or you figure out how
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  to get the data out of whatever case management system they're
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  using into Domo and Domo's like it's a data warehouse and then a
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  visualization layer on top. What are the case management
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  platforms that you've come across over the past few years
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  in when integrating? A lot of clients are on lead
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  docket and there's the lead docket Filevine connection.
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  It's extremely hard to get data out of Filevine, so we usually
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  go with lead docket and there is attribution assuming everything
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  is set up correctly in lead docket, so we get all the leads
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  out of that. My personal favorite, I don't
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  know if I can pick favorites, is Alidify.
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  Delmo has a very basic Salesforce connector.
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  Obviously Alidify is built in Salesforce, so we can get
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  everything out. We can we can time exactly when
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  we want to get the data out. We can choose all the fields and
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  calls you want exactly out of Alidify.
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  There's a few others. Law ruler case, peer law rank.
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  No, not law rank. Ruler Case.
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  Pier Smoke. Balls.
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  Smoke balls one. Smart Advocate.
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  Smart Advocate? Yep.
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  That you got to usually use like a sequel query to get it out of
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  Smart Advocate. So I've had some help to make
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  sure we get that the data we need.
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  So yeah. Each case management system is
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  unique. Each has its own nuances.
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  Some of them like Salesforce or Litify or like direct
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  connectors, and you've got like accessing databases and queries.
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  And yeah, some of them we just pull CSV exports.
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  Yeah, right. A weekly.
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  E-mail. Yeah, it's really crazy to see
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  the amount of data that we have access to and are using to make
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  decisions and how that data is invisible before we step in.
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  And the law firms are like trying to piece together their
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  decision making without actually having the entire picture.
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  Yeah. And one of the things we do
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  right away when a client comes on is we even if the client
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  isn't set up or doesn't want to do the extra work to get
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  attribution right in their system.
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  We will immediately start getting seeing all calls, all
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  forms, all chats from the site and seeing exactly where it came
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  from, which landing page did it come from.
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  Then when we take the data out of the client's system, wherever
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  it may be from, we combine that. We find the matching leads from
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  our records, whether it's a call, former chat, match it with
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  their one. And then now we can see, OK,
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  this call came from this city's GBP location and it is signed or
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  whatever is. So we can by that nature we can
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  finally start joining marketing data with the clients data and
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  and what status it is. Sometimes it doesn't match
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  though, right? Like you built this really cool
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  exception report. Yeah.
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  Where if the lead has a source on our side, because we know,
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  right, it came in through call rail, it has a specific source
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  or it came in through a form. And we have Damien who runs our
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  development built an incredible way to track every time a form
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  submission comes in, we capture exactly where that form came
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  from the refer the landing page. So we have that data stored.
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  Then you have whatever source it has on the client side.
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  That dissonance there is, it's really shocking to see like
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  sometimes firms have their intake people put the source in
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  based on like, hey, where did you hear about us or whatever
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  question that intake person happens to ask, right?
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  What would you say is like the volume of mismatches that you
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  see? Well, the way we do is it did
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  and I think it's the best way. I haven't come up with a better
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  way, but we're going to look at the phone number.
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  So what's the phone number in their system and what's the
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  phone number in our system? Does that phone number match?
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  Does do the dates match? Because if the lead was creating
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  the client system one day and then we saw in our system two
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  weeks after that, we know that in our system that actually
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  didn't generate the case, right? I mean, when all said and done,
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  it really depends on the client, but you're looking at probably
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  like 80% Max matching that you could get, I think, yeah.
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  So potentially 20% incorrect decision making of marketing
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  spend? Yeah.
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  Or you know, there's things where where we have to rely on
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  the client's data. For example, if something came
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  from a referral, we're not going to see that from the marketing
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  side, nothing call Rails going to tell you that.
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  Nothing in the the cookie from a form filled is going to tell you
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  if it's a referral. So only the intake agent would
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  know that or someone at the firm.
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  So there's cases where you can rely on the marketing data and
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  in cases where you have to rely on the intake team.
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  You kind of touched on this a little bit, but I like to call
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  it like the plumbing, right? Like connecting all the
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  different systems together so that when a lead comes in, it
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  actually gets where it needs to go as quickly as possible.
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  Can you talk about some of the ways that you've seen that
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  happen before you stepped in and actually built the plumbing?
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  A firm gets an e-mail right and it goes to like a group e-mail
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  address. There's been plenty of cases
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  that we've seen where lead comes in and it it's probably just
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  going to an e-mail or, or someone at the firm's notified
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  and it's their job to put it into Lidify or whatever it is.
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  Well, anytime you're relying on humans to do something, it's not
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  going to be 100% is you know, you'd be likely to get 80% out
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  of that. That's just like making sure
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  it's accurate input incorrectly. Well, like it being the
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  requirement of a human to even put it in a system right is they
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  may not even all make it there or it may take like, you know,
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  Joan is sick today. So the person who's supposed to
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  to do that isn't in and like the lead winds up not getting called
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  till the next day. And they're probably just going
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  to put in the basic information, the name, maybe a phone number.
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  Is that phone number going to match actually the one that they
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  called from an e-mail address? You're going to lose a lot of
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  the stuff that would come in if we do it the other way, which
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  is, you know, how we would approach it is something
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  programmatically. So can a form fill automatically
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  go into the client's system? So we have, you know, connect
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  with APIs certain ways to make sure it does.
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  And then also when that happens, like I said before, we we have
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  it go into our system the same way at the same exact time.
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  So there's no split on when it's getting created in their system
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  versus our system. So then we know and hopefully
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  the information whether it's e-mail, phone is getting created
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  the same way in both. So then we know what's what.
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  All right, so we've got lead plumbing link building
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  analytics. My favorite role of yours is
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  What do you think of it as I? Don't know what you're going to
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  say, but I just know that you're always throwing.
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  What I told tell people about my job is I just kind of do
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  whatever these guys tell me to because you have, you have no
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  shortage of ideas and you always bring them to me.
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  And I feel like my job is to try to make it happen.
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  Law firms, well, an agency needs that, but law firms need that
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  too, right? Especially at the pace of like
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  technology advancement of AI usage of like all these
• 13:26
  different things you could do from a marketing perspective,
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  need someone that could sort of catch that idea and then like
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  turn it into how do I execute that for the business, right?
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  Properly, right. That's kind of my answer, right.
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  Like I like the, we've recently, or you've recently built out a
• 13:43
  team that takes the all these AI ideas that Mark and I have and
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  then turns them into reality. The first iteration of this was
• 13:53
  we're going to build out lead scoring models and that became a
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  way for us to sort of triage valuable leads and then suppress
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  the ones that really don't need to be risen up to intake right
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  away. And then it evolved into, OK,
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  floodgates open and we came up with like all of these ideas of
• 14:09
  all these cool things that we can do.
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  We started building out custom GPTS and custom gems to do like
• 14:14
  content auditing. Right now we're building like AI
• 14:18
  call grading systems to listen to call transcriptions and
• 14:21
  determine whether or not intakes were handled appropriately.
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  Of all those like projects that you were tossed like, what are
• 14:29
  the ones that stand out to you is like?
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  These are things that really could make a difference if they
• 14:35
  are implemented and adopted for a firm.
• 14:37
  Yeah. Let me think about that.
• 14:40
  I want to go to, OK, One thing that I'm really proud that we
• 14:43
  built and it's super cool is that there's a certain case site
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  that we monitor and we found websites that post this case
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  site. We have a almost 100% automated
• 14:55
  workflow where anytime these websites post an update, we
• 15:00
  automatically scrape that information.
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  We ingest it with AI, we extract the data we need, we then
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  automatically create a form that's tailored.
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  It talks about the specific information from that website we
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  saw. We create ads for it with tools
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  like the actual. Creatives.
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  Yeah, the. Creative that you would see on
• 15:20
  on Meta or Facebook, we even create the the Facebook campaign
• 15:24
  with targeting using AI and that uses the creative and uses the
• 15:29
  form. So that is like a a full circle
• 15:31
  workflow that has helped us scale that particular project so
• 15:36
  much. It would be very hard to do
• 15:38
  anything near what we do without it.
• 15:40
  So yeah, that. It's, it's really cool to like
• 15:44
  think about what's possible as an end state and all the tools
• 15:48
  that are available to build stuff like the amount of Zapier
• 15:53
  Zaps that we have is it's, it had gotten to a point where it's
• 15:58
  unmanageable. So we started building folders
• 16:00
  to keep things separate. But we have so much automation
• 16:03
  that runs throughout both the agency and for each of our
• 16:07
  individual firms. Like we step into these
• 16:10
  organizations that are somewhat monolithic, like just gigantic
• 16:16
  law firms that have run in a way that is built for actually
• 16:20
  handling what they do, which is managing cases, whether it's pre
• 16:23
  lit or litigation. And then we identify all of
• 16:27
  these different things that are like, ways that you can
• 16:30
  incrementally improve. I think about what we do as an
• 16:35
  agency and what people think we do as an agency.
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  And that dichotomy is just so different.
• 16:43
  Like, I talk to people and they're like, you know, what do
• 16:46
  you do for a living? And I start off usually by
• 16:48
  saying, like, I do marketing for lawyers.
• 16:50
  They're like, oh, like, that's cool.
• 16:51
  Like, do you like it? I'm like, yeah, but it's not the
• 16:53
  marketing. It's like what we do is we go
• 16:56
  into law firms and we find like all of the different ways that
• 17:00
  that firm could be improved And it yes, there's marketing
• 17:02
  components to it, right? You got to kind of fill the
• 17:04
  bucket, but once you fill the bucket, you got to convert the
• 17:07
  bucket. And then once you convert the
• 17:09
  bucket, you got to move it into matter handling.
• 17:12
  There's, you know, then you have to visualize it with analytics
• 17:15
  and all the different pieces. And when people talk about how
• 17:19
  AI has changed, what we do, like the actual agency workflow, what
• 17:24
  people's minds go to immediately is like, oh, you're using AI to
• 17:27
  create content, right? If you talk to most agencies
• 17:30
  like and you ask them about that, yeah, like we're, we're
• 17:32
  creating a whole bunch of content because we're using AI.
• 17:35
  Whereas like the things that you've been able to build right
• 17:38
  and conceptualize and execute on are, they are so much deeper
• 17:43
  than that thanks to your. Ideas Well.
• 17:47
  It's, it's less, I appreciate that, but it is, it's less about
• 17:51
  the ideas, I think. And it's more about like truly
• 17:54
  understanding what would move the needle for a firm.
• 17:56
  You know, it, it's not just me talking to a firm and then like
• 18:02
  handing them off to one of our marketing leads to go and like
• 18:04
  do SEO or run a paid campaign. You know, we become embedded
• 18:08
  with these firms and we'll go and do on site visits and we'll
• 18:12
  have like long strategy calls and we'll find opportunities and
• 18:15
  then we'll figure out how to bridge those gaps and fulfill
• 18:19
  those opportunities. And the end result is, yes, more
• 18:21
  cases, right? And yes, we're doing SEO and
• 18:24
  yes, we're running paid campaigns, but there's just.
• 18:27
  Yeah. You.
• 18:27
  Peel back those layers and it's so different, the thing I.
• 18:30
  Love about operations is just the feeling of taking something
• 18:34
  that feels like a gear that's like trying to go around it's,
• 18:37
  it's just not going as smooth as it should.
• 18:39
  There's like junk and, and stuff in there and then it just feels
• 18:42
  like you grease it and then things start rolling smoothly.
• 18:44
  You need less people to look over this and they can focus on
• 18:47
  the other pieces of it. And then just once you're done
• 18:50
  taking a step back and looking at it and you're like, oh, this
• 18:53
  thing is working pretty smoothly now.
• 18:54
  This used to be a pain in the neck in legal marketing.
• 18:59
  There's no shortage of those problems.
• 19:01
  So there's no shortage. There's always something to do
• 19:04
  when people. Think about, like using
• 19:05
  technology and automation and workflows and AI, Like a lot of
• 19:09
  times that conversation shifts to like, replacing people.
• 19:13
  And it's been the opposite, right?
• 19:15
  As you've added more of these, like systems and automations and
• 19:18
  processes and workflows and like things that are triggered
• 19:22
  through AI, you've actually needed more staff to support it.
• 19:26
  Yeah, it's, it's very much an inverse relationship, you know?
• 19:31
  Yeah, I. I mean, there's, I know there's
• 19:32
  a lot of layoffs going on around AI and, and that's been the
• 19:36
  news, but for us, but the primary focus is how can our
• 19:40
  current people use AI to just do more and then scale this out?
• 19:44
  Or can they not have to do this and do something else that we
• 19:47
  definitely need humans for 'cause there's plenty of that
• 19:49
  stuff too. We are at no.
• 19:50
  Shortage of work to do. And that's what I love about how
• 19:53
  we've sort of evolved the way that we do the work that we do
• 19:57
  is it's not just like let's build a system and like punt off
• 20:01
  work and like reduce labor. It's let's build a system and
• 20:04
  then figure out how we have people utilize that system
• 20:08
  within their process. A lot of times what I've seen
• 20:11
  like as we built these processes over the past year or so has
• 20:14
  been human to technology, back to human.
• 20:18
  Right. And like that middle piece just
• 20:21
  accelerates the output. Yeah, exponentially, just like
• 20:25
  a. Funny, this is not anywhere near
• 20:27
  the Max capability of AI, but I remember when I first started
• 20:30
  Operations, I would be trying to figure out like an Excel formula
• 20:34
  and I would be going on Reddit threads posting.
• 20:37
  It would take me like 3 hours to figure out how to do something
• 20:40
  on Plex. I'd be waiting for people to
• 20:41
  reply to me. I mean, now it takes 2 seconds.
• 20:43
  And and that is not even like the way that we'd like to use AI
• 20:47
  'cause it's just isolated and we like to, you know, build out a
• 20:49
  whole process. But those types of things, it's
• 20:52
  actually insane when you step back and you realize how much
• 20:54
  more are you accomplishing just with those tools at your
• 20:57
  fingertips? So we started this conversation
• 21:00
  off talking about link building. Yeah, right.
• 21:02
  And link building is an operational procedure that you
• 21:06
  you built a system around. Yeah.
• 21:08
  You've got how many link builders?
• 21:11
  Close to 50. Right now close to. 50 link
• 21:13
  builders, right when we tell people like, hey, we've got 65
• 21:17
  people at the agency, like we're not even counting the link
• 21:20
  builders, right. It's, it's absolutely insane the
• 21:23
  scale at which we've been able to execute this link building
• 21:27
  has, has evolved and now we've sort of bundled digital PR in
• 21:35
  with that building. And of course, like we throw it
• 21:37
  over to side project, right? Like, hey, catch this and figure
• 21:40
  out how to make it work. Can you talk through like some
• 21:43
  of the things that you've been able to implement on the digital
• 21:46
  PR side and how they have helped out from an SEO standpoint or
• 21:50
  just like general marketing and branding?
• 21:52
  Yeah. It's a good, good way to look at
• 21:54
  like how linked has changed in in general, because when I first
• 21:58
  started it was just get as many links as you can, you know, get
• 22:01
  a high domain authority links. This will improve rankings.
• 22:04
  I think this probably this shift probably started with the advent
• 22:10
  of AI and ChatGPT and stuff and we realized, OK, you know, the
• 22:15
  way Google works, it's important to have links in that, that old
• 22:19
  fashioned way. But also building up the brand
• 22:23
  and the authority and being cited in places and having like
• 22:25
  not just your name out there, but things are surrounding your
• 22:28
  name with context is also important, even without the
• 22:32
  link. Yeah, even.
• 22:33
  Without the link because these AILLMS are calling everything,
• 22:38
  of course, this is one of the things you brought to us and and
• 22:41
  you were a way to have the game and said this is what we need to
• 22:43
  get ahead of. So we started looking more into
• 22:45
  digital PR and figuring out how do we just get, you know, show
• 22:50
  what the the firms are doing. I like to.
• 22:52
  Call it like taking what's happening offline and figuring
• 22:55
  out how to appropriately represent it online.
• 22:57
  Yeah, right. You have to create that digital
• 22:59
  footprint of all the things that are happening in the real world.
• 23:02
  Otherwise it like from a digital perspective it doesn't count,
• 23:06
  let's say that. There was something big that the
• 23:07
  firm did or, or big news. Don't let that go into the
• 23:11
  ether. Let's put out a press release
• 23:13
  or, or something and just get it out there so you know as you
• 23:17
  would with anything else that's noteworthy and it's goes to link
• 23:22
  billing. But like you said, it's not even
• 23:24
  about the link. It's just about building up that
• 23:26
  brand and and showing what the client's doing I.
• 23:29
  I don't know who to, to credit with this, but I was reading
• 23:32
  something online, I think it was on LinkedIn and someone had
• 23:35
  mentioned that AI visibility has turned into a popularity
• 23:41
  contest. It's like, how much can you get
• 23:45
  mentioned across as many places as possible And that's going to
• 23:48
  help your AI visibility. And if you think from that
• 23:51
  mindset of like digital PR is just like, how do I get my brand
• 23:55
  in as many places as my potential customers, clients
• 23:58
  will be the better you talk about press releases, like I put
• 24:03
  that as like table stakes, right?
• 24:04
  If people are thinking digital PR, I'm just going to put like
• 24:07
  AAP news wire press release. That's not digital PR to me,
• 24:11
  right? What what are some of the other
• 24:13
  things that we're doing like talk through you've, you've had
• 24:16
  success with this. So let let's talk about like
• 24:18
  real tactics that people can execute.
• 24:20
  So here's. Something interesting we've done
• 24:22
  for some clients is we noticed organically we were getting
• 24:25
  links from, you know, actually like interesting data that we
• 24:30
  were writing statistics pages about a particular issue.
• 24:34
  And the theory is, is that journalists would be writing an
• 24:37
  article, they want to cite something.
• 24:39
  So they would search statistics about car accidents in this
• 24:44
  area, just as an example. So we had an idea, hey, how
• 24:48
  about we as the firm create our own first party data that can
• 24:54
  answer this for people because there's no shortage of people
• 24:56
  wanting this data, whatever it is, even if they don't know they
• 24:59
  want this data, there's something that we can create
• 25:00
  that, that that will be useful. So we started implementing
• 25:04
  surveys, You know, we found a tool that we can create surveys
• 25:10
  we can send out to a particular demographic we want, whether
• 25:12
  they're between a certain age, have kids live in this region,
• 25:15
  whatever it is. So we did that, got some data,
• 25:19
  figured out some interesting things in a lot of these cases,
• 25:23
  wrote an article about it and put that up and you know, maybe
• 25:28
  we did a press release and then also we doing manual outreach
• 25:31
  with those. We're we're pitching it to
• 25:33
  people we think useful and we're getting coverage from that
• 25:35
  process and writing good content.
• 25:37
  We even just have it nationally ranking for things like perhaps
• 25:41
  it's a driving statistics in the winter, you know, something like
• 25:46
  that. And then nationally, ranking
• 25:47
  from the efforts we've done on link building and just writing
• 25:50
  good content, journalists have naturally found it and linked to
• 25:53
  it. Still, Yep, it's.
• 25:54
  Really cool how the digital PR efforts in a vacuum are
• 25:59
  effective, but the amplification of like putting things together.
• 26:03
  So let's talk about like your survey, right?
• 26:05
  Your survey, you mentioned you sent a press release out about
• 26:07
  it, right? Some of the other things that
• 26:09
  that you can do or like you have an e-mail newsletter list right
• 26:13
  at your firm included in your e-mail newsletter.
• 26:15
  Yeah, you have social media, post it on social media, create
• 26:19
  videos about it, post those videos on YouTube.
• 26:22
  Like the idea of, and you could do this with anything that you
• 26:26
  do at your firm of finding every possible amplification point and
• 26:30
  figuring out what's the right message and medium for me to
• 26:34
  push out through that Channel, this one singular thing that you
• 26:37
  created. So it could be this concept of
• 26:40
  we've created this, this survey about X topic and we're going to
• 26:44
  push it out through traditional PR to news and we're going to
• 26:47
  post it on our social media. And, and, and, and, and, and in
• 26:50
  each of these different channels, you've created this
• 26:52
  unique piece of content from 1 singular source of information.
• 26:57
  And that's like this motion that you need to do if you actually
• 27:00
  want to achieve digital PR in the modern world, right?
• 27:05
  It's it's taking that one thing and then amplifying it as much
• 27:08
  as you possibly can. Yeah, Dave, I know what you do.
• 27:13
  I know how valuable you are. I know how valuable the role of
• 27:16
  an operations lead is at our agency, and I know how valuable
• 27:19
  operations is at firms because we see it and how impactful
• 27:23
  you've been able to be stepping in and filling some of these
• 27:25
  gaps. So thanks so much for sitting
• 27:28
  down with us. Thanks for all that you do for
• 27:30
  our agency, and thanks for all that you do for our clients.
• 27:33
  Thank you. Thank you, John.