Latest / PropMedia Podcast / Luxury vs Volume: Two Paths to Scaling Your Media Business

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Luxury vs Volume: Two Paths to Scaling Your Media Business · PropMedia Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Hi.
0:00
SPEAKER_01: Hey.
0:16
SPEAKER_00: Hi.
0:16
SPEAKER_00: This is I'm Moses and this is Matty with the Prop Media Podcast.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: We're the co-founders for Pixel Mob and propmedia.com.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: And we are talking today about uh we're extending what we started about a month ago and what uh what would we do differently?
0:35
SPEAKER_00: We've scaled an international software platform.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: We also run a small uh media company in Western South Carolina.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: And if we took the principles of the software scaling and applied them back into a real estate media company and put our focus there, what would be different?
0:50
SPEAKER_00: So I think last time we kind of started hitting around go to market strategies, but there's lots of other pieces that we haven't hit yet with recruiting and operations and customer service and stuff like that.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: So what would you do different?
1:02
SPEAKER_00: Pick our pick our topic here.
1:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is kind of our our fantasy real estate media team.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: So um start a start a fantasy football league, only be fantasy real estate production company.
1:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we'll set our rosters and draft blended sense and VHT.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: Oh, VHT is out for the season.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: Okay, all the time.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be rough.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:23
SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, okay.
1:26
SPEAKER_01: So um we can actually talk about recruiting off the bat.
1:30
SPEAKER_01: So like you're building the last time kind of we talked, uh, I was in the mindset of thinking about maybe like a luxury type uh approach rather than maybe more of a volume-based business.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: And I was production, grind, volume, stable.
1:46
SPEAKER_01: So I think um, you know, if you're talking about luxury, there's a it's a very different kind of approach, I think, than I would take if I were in your shoes and what you're what you're trying to build out.
2:00
SPEAKER_01: With luxury, you really do need people that are going to be able to have experience.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: They need to be technical, they need to be creative.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: You're not just taking some random photographer who's picked up a camera a little bit and throwing them out of luxury shoot and expecting it to go well.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is this is uh a lot more.
2:19
SPEAKER_01: I I think I would be focusing heavily on video production in in in particular, um, that's high ticket, high average order values, um, and a little more insulated right now.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: Also true, yeah.
2:31
SPEAKER_01: With as much uh AI and automation, I think there's probably a longer road to be able, particularly if you want to create kind of a boutique agency, you could do that and have a lot of latitude within the video.
2:45
SPEAKER_01: That doesn't video category, that doesn't mean that AI and automation won't sneak its way in there too.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: Just maybe you'd have to dial it back because like Zach was telling us today, C dance is like overproduced out of the gate, so that's gonna be like commoditized, and you'll need to make it.
3:01
SPEAKER_00: You need to do found footage real estate videography.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:06
SPEAKER_00: You'll figure it out, you'll figure out the new uh luxury.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: I love this actually.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: We'll just have the realtor like with a selfie camera, like locked in a closet.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm here at Baker Street.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: Uh it might be going live, but I don't know if I'll make it.
3:22
SPEAKER_01: Right.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm at the open house.
3:25
SPEAKER_01: I didn't bring enough carrots.
3:27
SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah.
3:27
SPEAKER_01: I think it'd be pretty funny.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: We'll do that.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I do think, yeah, video in particular is one of those um categories that uh there's a lot of it's high creativity.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: You need expensive equipment generally, particularly if you're doing luxury stuff.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, you want people that are really going to uh have a high sense for um not only the creative but great with customers and and showcase the business well, I'd probably be hiring them and be looking to pay top dollar on staff.
3:58
SPEAKER_00: So how are you because I like all that sounds great in theory, but how are you actually attracting that talent?
4:05
SPEAKER_00: Like, what's the value proposition where you're describing an already skilled professional who could run their own videography company?
4:13
SPEAKER_00: So why do they work with you?
4:15
SPEAKER_01: That's a really good question.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: I think that uh it's a good question because it it's not always an obvious answer.
4:22
SPEAKER_01: So let me stumble my way through it a little bit.
4:23
SPEAKER_01: I think those kind of um you find that kind of talent uh through a network.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's um pretty hard.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: I well in the world of Instagram, you can find people digitally.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: So that'd definitely be like maybe a place I would start.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: But I do think you really need to get to know people.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, and that'd be probably how I would be thinking about it.
4:49
SPEAKER_01: Um nurturing those relationships.
4:51
SPEAKER_01: It's not meeting.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: No, I I would be I would be recruiting that those that team myself.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: I think the it would take time.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: When you're trying, I think what I'd be working on is making excellent stuff, right, on my own.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: I think having someone that can learn from you um and is doesn't, particularly when you're starting out, having someone on your team that'll just help you and they want to be a sponge.
5:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, that's usually a younger person that is almost an apprentice type would be a great place to start if you were starting a luxury and you wanted to scale a luxury business.
5:30
SPEAKER_01: That person might be able to ride with you all the way through.
5:32
SPEAKER_01: They might be your right-hand person for, you know, so like they've been the most direct tutelage.
5:39
SPEAKER_01: So that's a great place to start.
5:41
SPEAKER_01: And then as you're starting to expand um beyond that, I think you're trying to hire in people that are already hit a high caliber.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: But usually it's like talent recognizes talent kind of thing.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: I think it's you gotta go put out good work um and people will kind of resonate with that.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: So, how would you handle it um in kind of the volume production level business?
6:06
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I think I get the easier, um the easier side of this stick at least.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: Because when you're when whenever you're dependent on recruiting high skill, recruiting becomes the bottleneck.
6:22
SPEAKER_00: When you can recruit low or mid-skill into a system that makes their work good and a good customer experience, then you just have way more optionality.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: And you can you can zero in on uh different things.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: So like we we know that the customer experience of the realtor is probably picking.
6:46
SPEAKER_00: Like how they feel about the shoot, booking the shoot, experiencing the shoot, all those things is why they come back in in either model.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: But where you might have pressure to hire the top talent who also happens to be an extreme diva, I don't have that pressure.
7:05
SPEAKER_00: Like I can actually prioritize in a system where the extreme skill is not needed.
7:12
SPEAKER_00: I can focus on post-production systems to make the skill and quality good enough and good, like top of top of class in what I'm doing in production photography.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: And then I can zero in on core, like uh almost personality and behavioral traits with the individuals and look for people who love to serve, love to please, love to make a great customer experience.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: And that's not something they're putting on, that's like the core of who they are, that they're reliable to get there and they're gonna show up with a smile and engage and make a great experience for the people they come around.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: Those are the pieces that I'd be prioritizing and I'd be systematizing the skill as much as possible.
7:54
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you're still gonna have to have to train them.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: If they've never picked up a camera before, then I mean you know, there's hours of training to get them to a place where they can do a good, a good shoot.
8:04
SPEAKER_00: But I could actually hire somebody who'd never picked up a camera before, spend a weekend and get them up to speed so that they can do a first shoot and do some sidecar and that sort of stuff.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: But I think I would have a lot more options and an ability to prioritize the customer experience, which is exactly where I would drive at.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: Now, how do you think?
8:25
SPEAKER_01: So I know you and we've got a business together.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: You say you're gonna train somebody.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: Well, how are you how are you going to train them?
8:32
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I don't know.
8:32
SPEAKER_00: How are you gonna network?
8:33
SPEAKER_00: That's what I was just telling you.
8:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, these are good questions.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: These are our uh normal roles in our businesses.
8:39
SPEAKER_00: I tend toward the networking side.
8:41
SPEAKER_00: He tends toward the training and the technical.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, I if I were starting from scratch, I mean, I would I'd be on YouTube with Mike Burke or Eli or whatever.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's is this the information is there to be had.
8:54
SPEAKER_00: It would take time, but not that much time to get up to a place where you could do the shoot.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: Heck, I was selling shoots when I knew nothing to other realtors just because I had relationships with them and sending them uh very amateurely edited um single, non-bracketed photos before we ever met.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: Like, so I would lean into those strengths and then I would educate and grow my ability to do the core products so that I could train.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: If if I'm just starting out, I would be, I'd have to be the trainer.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: Like, unless because like we talked about last time, I wouldn't be wanting to drop ten thousand dollars to hire a trainer or something like that.
9:34
SPEAKER_00: I'd want to hold the business accountable to drive forward on its own revenue, which means at first it's me.
9:40
unknown: Interesting.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, YouTube and AI, you can go pretty far.
9:48
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's true.
9:49
SPEAKER_00: Actually, YouTube.
9:51
SPEAKER_00: I'd probably have Claude organize a YouTube playlist for me.
9:56
SPEAKER_00: Yep, and then set a scheduled task for it to ping me every morning that I needed to learn the next thing and just organize an entire I like it.
10:04
SPEAKER_00: That's what I would do.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: Nice, nice.
10:06
SPEAKER_01: What do we got next on the list here?
10:09
SPEAKER_01: Um team management.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: Before we move on, I would say one other thing about recruiting is I would be zeroed in on the on the cultural fit of the person, that they fit well with me and that they fit well with the values that we were gonna do.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: And really slow down.
10:26
SPEAKER_00: Like my recruiting process, my my actual recruiting process is hours with an individual, like multiple meetings before bringing them on.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think I'd back off of that at all.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't be applying it to narrow the skill.
10:38
SPEAKER_00: I'd be applying it to narrow the person for a good long-term fit.
10:42
SPEAKER_01: And would you hire this person or you would you do contract?
10:45
SPEAKER_00: I think the first one, the first one after my own labor generating the revenue would be a hire, I think would be my choice.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: Beyond that, I think there's it could be a mixture.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: I don't, I don't mind the contractor model.
10:58
SPEAKER_00: I can I think it can be a good win-win.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: But anytime you can employ and create other value around somebody that could theoretically create efficiencies and higher profitability for the business.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: And if it's a great great, if that's a great experience for that individual as well, some people really value that steady paycheck more than any kind of scaling income.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: And honestly, if I'm prioritizing customer service and those types, that personality cluster is usually going to correlate with wanting steady income.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: So the person who's going to want that stable presentation and win some approach with a person is often going to want steady income, not scaling income.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: So I would think those might go together, and it might end up being best to employ as often as possible and maybe just fill in little scaling jumps with contract labor.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: Are you thinking in our in your fantasy business here that this would be a multi-location business?
11:56
SPEAKER_00: I started this last weekend.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
11:58
SPEAKER_01: You and Claude have been busy.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: Uh so is this a multi-location business?
12:06
SPEAKER_01: Are you going deep in one location and really explore everything for a handful of customers?
12:14
SPEAKER_01: What's your vision for what this business would be?
12:17
SPEAKER_00: I think depending on what I needed revenue-wise and profit out of the company, it would eventually need to expand beyond my current geography.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: But I would push the system really hard to have it really systematized here before trying to scale it anywhere else.
12:32
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a good thing.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: So in South Carolina, that might look like looking two hours east to Columbia, might look like two hours north to Asheville.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: And some advice from some real estate companies that I was privileged to coach who are expanding, like they would caution anyone from expanding a real estate company beyond an easy days drive.
13:14
SPEAKER_00: Because when things go wrong and culture goes meh and something happens, you can still go as the owner and sort it.
13:28
SPEAKER_00: Because you can't put your your finger in the hole to stop the leak anymore.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: And so if you've battle tested the systems locally and then you've tested them in that near the near markets, then maybe it's time to take a jump into uh you'd actually be hopping on a plane to get somewhere.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: But I would I would definitely want to scale because if if I'm putting most of my effort into recruiting systems and back-end systems, operational post-production systems, and getting those airtight because that's what this business would need to scale, then absolutely.
13:59
SPEAKER_00: Then it becomes becomes a step and repeat of all of this leverage where even some of it can be uh like a mothership, like post-production doesn't have to be recreated in order to launch in Myrtle Beach.
14:14
SPEAKER_00: I just need I need shooters and I need uh good go-to-market strategy for that area.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, those two pieces plus the back end systems and flex it.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would want to scale it too, but I think I would be looking for luxury markets which are rarely neighboring.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: Um true.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: I'd probably be thinking about it.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: Maybe hit Santa Monica and San Diego.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean I'm neighborish.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: That's true, right?
14:41
SPEAKER_01: For Lauderdale, Miami.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's there's stuff in range, but I do think that um I would be thinking about hitting you know big cities.
14:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um urban areas, yeah.
14:53
SPEAKER_00: You just can have a lot more luxury ability for luxury to penetrate.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: There's there's an actual luxury market.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: There's market there, right?
14:59
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
15:00
SPEAKER_00: And in small town America, there's a hundred luxury houses a year.
15:03
SPEAKER_00: In Miami, there's ten thousand.
15:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:05
SPEAKER_00: So like you got lots of lots of opportunities.
15:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: So part of how I think would think about doing go-to-market if I were doing it again, and I think I may have mentioned this on another episode, maybe even the part one, I can't remember when I mentioned this before, but I'd be thinking about partnering with an agent um or several agents in a very heavy referral.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: Real estate agent.
15:29
SPEAKER_01: Real estate agents, yeah.
15:30
SPEAKER_01: Um in a very heavy heavy referral system, giving them like first orders, give them a commission of the whole first order kind of thing.
15:40
SPEAKER_00: Because you know the value of the long-term client that even if you're giving a realtor a thousand dollar commission to bring you a deal, if you've got the quality to back it up, you're gonna make that over ten times in the next year.
15:53
SPEAKER_01: Exactly, exactly.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: And they're those are typically I can't say this with complete confidence, but if you've got the these larger um listings, they're I would say that they're generally probably doing pretty well off.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: That's not always true.
16:09
SPEAKER_01: The agent.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: The agent.
16:11
SPEAKER_01: If they're doing larger listing, they're doing luxury listings, they may do fewer in a year because they don't need to do as many, but I would I would guess I mean they're they're not your forty-two thousand dollar a year realtor.
16:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
16:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, even though, yeah, I have my own thoughts about agents who only sell three houses and make a hundred grand.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: Right.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's you may not get the same volume, but your average order value is higher and uh they're harder to please.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's you know, there's there's higher expectations as well.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: You've got you've got diva challenges two directions, potentially, in your in your model.
16:47
SPEAKER_01: Potentially true.
16:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that would definitely be um a downside, I think, to that model.
16:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, talent is always gonna be your bottleneck in a luxury scenario, I think.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think it's also probably pretty competitive.
17:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I would be looking quickly at expanding beyond real estate, which we've talked about a few times, into broader um property media um categories, whether that's um more for enterprise clients and maybe yeah.
17:23
SPEAKER_01: So like I hotels are like an easy like cross-sell, not cross-sell to the same person, but like it's this exact same skill set.
17:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think there are people that have vacation homes and stuff, particularly in in uh certain cities that uh are managed by property managers and stuff like that, too, where like if you can get in with also builders are great.
17:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, I've had those kind of relationships before.
17:50
SPEAKER_01: Good repetitive business, yeah.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: And those are those kind of word of mouth stuff that work you you get a lot of uh recognition for that kind of work.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: Well, I I'll say this like this, your vision sounds more fun, but efficiency-wise, in some ways, I would only need to find 20 realtors that do 50 listings to do a thousand shoots in a year.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: There is an efficiency and the ability to target the realtor.
18:19
SPEAKER_00: I think you could do this too.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: You could target those luxury agents really specifically for networking and find that persona that matches.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: And I'm looking for the high volume realtor to develop a relationship with for repetitive business, and you're looking for the well, I said volume, high transaction, and you're looking for the high volume.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but that's one of the beautiful things about real estate is you could target either of those, and it's not hard.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:43
SPEAKER_01: I think you know, these kind of videos that I'm talking about are two grand, fifteen grand, yeah, and there might be a whole package of videos, potentially too, particularly if you've got whole like uh neighborhoods and developments and stuff like that, too.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: There's there's so much more content that you can do with uh those kind of customers.
19:02
SPEAKER_01: You you lock them in once and way higher average order value.
19:06
SPEAKER_01: One of the biggest downsides with that look with luxury is uh you're you're getting into like video production territory, you are quoting, you are billing by invoice, you are waiting for stuff to clear.
19:21
SPEAKER_01: And I've had a whole 90-day terms, maybe.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: Man, I've I've had I've worked with builders before in literally you waiting for a hundred days for uh for them to send the checks and you have to harass them.
19:34
SPEAKER_01: And that was horrible, and these were not like poor people that are you know like struggling, these are big companies and they just ignore you, you know.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: Like well, and that's where you've got to systematize.
19:45
SPEAKER_00: You almost have to have an AR system.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would handle that completely different, I differently than would have in the past.
19:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that wasn't augmented reality, by the way.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: That's accounts receivable of getting your money.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a guy with uh a metal bat, right?
20:03
SPEAKER_00: That's a way to augment somebody's reality, yeah.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: It's receive some accounts.
20:11
SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's talk operations.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: What operationally would you be building first?
20:16
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I guess this is probably we're we're probably thinking uh hires, right?
20:21
SPEAKER_00: Not just the photographers, but how does the actual structure of the business work?
20:25
SPEAKER_01: I think and on my end, you don't need as as much overhead um operation overhead to start because you are doing less volume, there's less uh logistics to track.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: It could also almost be by the photographer or even just you at the beginning as the point of contact.
20:41
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: I do think that it is a very high-touch business.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: And so the sooner you can get into the sales side, the sooner you can get into the customer support and customer success side of that, um the better, uh, the more well-rounded your business will be, the faster you'll grow, the more they can interact with actual customers.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: That's really kind of where your leverage comes in.
21:07
SPEAKER_01: You do need the talent and you do need the portfolio, but um, I think that sales talent and the people that are gonna pick up the phone, like that would be something different.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: You're probably you I would want to have a portal and be as like manageable um from your phone as possible, but I think a lot of people are gonna want to just text and yeah and call to find out what what's the latest with this edit, or are you free on Tuesday?
21:32
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, can we get a can we rent a boat for this shot?
21:36
SPEAKER_01: You know, that kind of stuff.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot to manage and a lot to it's very high touch.
21:43
SPEAKER_00: And I think in the broader model that I'd be building, it also would be high touch, but it'd be very different in that like when I've run the real estate sales teams, the the single most significant well, and I'm I've run a real estate media sales team.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: One of the biggest things that makes a difference between closing client is do you pick up the phone and do you respond within two minutes?
22:08
SPEAKER_00: Like in real estate, it was like we had it down to such a science that it was like if you weren't connected with that client within two minutes of them like contacting on the website, it was like a backwards J curve of like you got a good shot, and then it just plummets at about minute three, four, or five because they moved on.
22:26
SPEAKER_00: They saw that house, they were interested in it for two seconds, and then they're they're looking at a different house, or they've moved off of their computer.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I don't think real estate media is quite as competitive for leads as real estate, but similarly, I would be working to figure out customer service coverage fast.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: And I mean that's something we legitimately focus on with North Seventh too, is just engaging with the relationship management component.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the things that I hope we can improve with North Seventh and get better and better over time.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: And I would be doing the exact same thing.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: So I'd probably be disciplining myself to do the shoots, get to three, four, five thousand in revenue, whatever it is, and hiring a VA who can handle Instagram and text um at least that interaction, even if I'm still on the phone for a while.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: But I mean, ideally, maybe that person can do that as well.
23:17
SPEAKER_00: But really focusing on that coverage and that instant service, I think is a is a really key motivator for a lot of real estate adoption.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: So let's dive into customer service specifically.
23:29
SPEAKER_01: What does that look like in your business?
23:32
SPEAKER_00: Are you hinting at something in particular?
23:33
SPEAKER_00: Because I would be zeroed in customer service-wise on response time and then the value of a client, and then being willing to shove our ego to make that client happy based on like from a business perspective.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: Well, if this client is worth a twelve hundred dollars a year on average, and I have to give them a$300 shoot, that should be a no-brainer decision to retain that client.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: And I would be trying to discipline our whatever customer service systems into that mindset.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: And that would be a direct ramification of like what we've learned in scaling Pixel Mob would be we want good customer service because we're in it for the long haul.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: As things scale, we want to retain users.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: And I've I mean, we see that on the thousands of users level, but it's no less important on the dozens of user level.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: It's way easier to keep a client by refunding a shoot than it is to go network and go find a new one that could take days, weeks, money, like burden hand, figure out how to make it work and make them a client for life and build a relationship.
24:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:46
SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's much different in in the way I'm thinking about it, too.
24:50
SPEAKER_01: And I think this is probably true in so many businesses.
24:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think there's a lot of crossover.
24:55
SPEAKER_00: Good customer service is good customer service.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:58
SPEAKER_01: I I think the big difference that I would feel in a service business is that we don't feel in the same way in particular in Pixel Mob, in like a tech scenario, is the more like personal relationship side.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: Um not that we don't have that too, but like I mean, we know a phone.
25:19
SPEAKER_00: I know some of them, yeah.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: Right.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: What I mean is that like uh we would have a phone number, you know, in the service business.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: I think it's a different approach.
25:30
SPEAKER_00: Wait, so what are you saying?
25:31
SPEAKER_00: So like in Pixamob, there's no phone number for Pixamob.
25:34
SPEAKER_00: You're interacting through the website to a person.
25:36
SPEAKER_01: You have chat and things like that, right?
25:38
SPEAKER_01: So what are you saying would be different in a service business?
25:41
SPEAKER_01: Uh I think it'd be more high touch.
25:45
SPEAKER_01: Uh there's you're talking about people, um, and even as the owner, particularly in a luxury business, there would be relationships that I would be nurturing um at a different level, I think, uh, at least particularly starting out.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: Um and I my goal would be in this fantasy uh luxury video business to grow that to be something that could be an agency that people would be be respected in high dollar anywhere in in the country or even internationally.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: And uh so if you're gonna grow something that big, you still need to maintain that level of high touch.
26:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it really becomes more of a concierge type service over time.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: Um luxury real estate really is kind of falls into this luxury category of commerce that's uh would definitely make me feel a little bit uncomfortable.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: Like that's not where I live on a day in, day out, you know.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, these people are selling, you know, in the homes that are buying many tens of millions of dollars and all the jewelry and cars and the bags and all that stuff.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: I think it'd be a little bit of a different uh thing, you know, really to start getting into.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: So I think the customer service would have to change uh uh in approach over time.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: I think so too.
27:09
SPEAKER_00: I think I think your challenges are gonna be more like you might even call them something different.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: There it's a it's a concierge.
27:17
SPEAKER_00: It's a you call this number and we fix whatever your problem is, kind of a Ritz Carlton vibe.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: Ladies and gentlemen serving ladies and gentlemen.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: Whereas in in my space, I mean we could still take notes from that and be inspired by that, but we couldn't possibly concierge 5,000 orders a year in the same way that you could concierge 500 higher dollar tickets, and they're they're gonna be different expectations.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: How would you know what they both could be perceived as great customer service but in their individual spaces?
27:53
SPEAKER_01: How do you formulate what that scale is?
27:56
SPEAKER_01: What scale?
27:58
SPEAKER_01: The scale of effort, the scale of how far I'll go for a customer.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: And I do think there is a scale.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: And I think we all know it, but no one wants to say that, you know, like I sing the Moana song to myself, the how far I'll go song.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: Too bad I haven't seen that movie, but oh, bummer.
28:14
SPEAKER_01: That's a good one.
28:16
SPEAKER_01: Um I've got to go watch it.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: Uh, give us three minutes.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: No, I'm not gonna go.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: You're gonna watch Moana in three minutes.
28:22
SPEAKER_01: I'll watch it, I'll watch the song.
28:23
SPEAKER_01: No, um it I do think this is one of the contentions that every real estate photographer and photography company goes through is how far should I go in this guilt at some level of like, man, I'm getting these requests.
28:40
SPEAKER_01: Like, there has to be a limit, and there has to be a point where a boundary feels like it feels unscalable.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: It feels and I think everybody feels that.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: We feel that in Pixima, like somebody has a really bad experience with an editor or something, it happens every once in a while.
28:55
SPEAKER_00: Like, there's something in the back of your head that's like, no, we can't refund the whole order.
28:59
SPEAKER_00: They still did work, they still did the they did a thing, like we deserve something.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: I think that's in everybody.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: Like there's this resistance that it's unfair or it's it's not just, yeah.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: And it gets even worse when that person has done it multiple times, or like there's all kinds of things that can um make it even more complicated emotionally in customer.
29:21
SPEAKER_01: To do if you were the one that shot it, or oh, yeah, that's true, even more compounded, even even worse than like in Pixamob, where it's it's the platform.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: All we did was facilitate the transaction.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: We didn't put our heart and soul into the edit.
29:34
SPEAKER_00: Like there's no that that emotion isn't there for us at all.
29:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, but in this in the same way, like I think you can think about it lots of different ways.
29:40
SPEAKER_00: Like we talked to somebody uh last week where they were just zeroed in on like, how do I just make this relationship?
29:46
SPEAKER_00: This is a lifelong relationship with someone where customer service is a value and it was very value-driven for them.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: But it's going to yield the same sorts of results of really giving generous.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: If something goes wrong, we will make it right no matter what, period.
30:03
SPEAKER_00: End of story.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: And for him, I think it would have been more of a like almost a reputational choice of I will spend a thousand dollars to maintain this relationship because that's who I am in business.
30:17
SPEAKER_00: So there's those kinds of lines that you can draw that I think lead you to great customer service and great retention.
30:23
SPEAKER_00: And they don't really have much to do with the dollar figure.
30:26
SPEAKER_00: The dollar figure just always kind of works out.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: Because if you're giving that level of service, then people get that and they come back.
30:35
SPEAKER_00: But I think what resonates with most people is more of the like you can actually calculate the value of your customers.
30:40
SPEAKER_00: And there's a part of me that hates that that is like I am transactional.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: I'm more inspired by this, that I'm going to make it right, period.
30:48
SPEAKER_00: If I go out of business, I'm going to make it right, kind of a mentality.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: But I think most people can't get to this level of altruism in their business.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: And a good step in the right direction is just start actually quantifying how much a customer is worth.
31:04
SPEAKER_00: And I think sometimes that helps us uh pull our ego back.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: That we want to say, like, no, this is a$500 shoot, and I did a great job, and you don't know squat, and you can go find a different photographer, is how we want to respond.
31:19
SPEAKER_00: But in reality, that person orders 10 shoots a year at$500 a pop.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: And you these easy stuff to know and track.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:30
SPEAKER_00: And if you want, if it's worth it to you to lose$5,000 to not give them$500.
31:37
SPEAKER_00: But I mean, if you start thinking about it in a lead generation capacity, would you spend$500 to get a$5,000 client that's going to pay you$5,000 over the next year?
31:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, unless you're a really dumb business owner.
31:50
SPEAKER_00: So if you start flipping it into almost a lead generation perspective of how do I ensure that I don't have to go generate another lead to replace this individual for my business to thrive?
32:03
SPEAKER_00: Or better yet, maybe even a better frame is how do I do such a good job on this listing that next time they want to order$750 shoots because they're building that loyalty with me and they want to take a stab?
32:15
SPEAKER_00: Like that's it's when you make these mind shifts, mindset shifts, and they are mindset shifts of how you deal with them, deal with customer service.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: When those happen, suddenly retention skyrockets in whatever business you're in, whether you're in real estate sales or real estate media or pixel mob, when you're willing to make those short-term sacrifices that feel unjust because you actually value the client.
32:43
SPEAKER_00: Whether that's for altruistic or monetary reasons, you actually value them as your customer, everything starts to shift and you start feeling more free to be generous when things go wrong.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: I still think it is can be uh complex, a complex thing to solve for.
33:02
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes those customers aren't$500 and they're not doing 10 shoots, you know, a year.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: That person better hope that you're the altruistic customer service person who's just gonna make it right because that's what I hate about this side is like, well, that person isn't worth anything because they're a for sale owner and they are just gonna do one shoot, and so I'm not gonna give them good service at all.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, that might be a good business decision in a way, but I don't know, maybe think about being a better human.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: The I think the where things get really messy is when a boundary is being crossed to the point of not just you, other people on your team being stressed out.
33:44
SPEAKER_00: You have that diva who's taking everybody's time every day of the week.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: What is it really worth?
33:49
SPEAKER_01: You know, like in in when you're in business, there is this is not discounting anything that you're saying, but there is a part of it where like you're a production company, right?
33:59
SPEAKER_01: And so on in some production companies, we produce candy bars, and the candy bars you know go through the process down the assembly line, and my job is to push almonds on top, you know, or whatever, and then goes into the next step.
34:13
SPEAKER_01: It's not so dissimilar within a real estate media business.
34:17
SPEAKER_01: My job as a photographer is I get this order, I go to this house, I shoot the photos, and then I put it in Dropbox or whatever.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: On the assembly line, if the stuff's all messed up, I throw out the candy bars and I keep going.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: You know, when it's a uh on the assembly line of a real estate photo shoot, and I show up at the house and it's a messy divorce, and people are yelling, and there's dogs, you know, biting at your feet, and you know, you're walking through mud or whatever, any kind of dangerous scenarios or all this kind of stuff, right?
34:49
SPEAKER_01: Like it it's it's a little bit different, so it's nuanced.
34:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, customer service, I think, is really hard in a volume uh service business where it's already commoditized, you're making a couple hundred dollars.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, and this is true if you're a plumber or electrician or anyone else.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: The juice has to be worth the squeeze from just a business standpoint.
35:12
SPEAKER_01: And those are the things you have to do.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the has to be taken into consideration at some level.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, anyways, I I think that it's a good challenge though, as far as the where your attitude is set.
35:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think that it will definitely um bring you a lot of business um if you're willing to overcome those hurdles, but then you have to you have to be willing to do that.
35:36
SPEAKER_00: So I think so.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: And I'll I'll tell you a quick funny story.
35:39
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you even know this.
35:40
SPEAKER_00: So, my funniest customer service moment in retrospect as a real estate agent, the largest customer service payout that I ever gave to a client, which was a multi-thousand dollar rebate because one of my agents had done something wrong and had it was a legitimate complaint and a legitimate problem.
36:02
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and there was no way to solve it other than refunding their earnest money because they were gonna lose it and they didn't deserve to lose it because the inspection had been done very poorly and just different stuff.
36:13
SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, the funny story is that I am now married to that client.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: So you never know what's gonna happen if you just give your wife good customer service.
36:24
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure Renee will love that.
36:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:29
SPEAKER_01: On that note, let's go ahead and wrap this up quickly.
36:32
SPEAKER_01: No, uh no.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: I I think there's more for us to keep talking.
36:36
SPEAKER_01: We didn't get through some of these things.
36:37
SPEAKER_01: I do think uh talking through um the list of services, team management.
36:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, I still don't think we've we really hit go to market.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: I think there's still room for another episode.
36:48
SPEAKER_00: I think go to market would be fun because of like our go-to-market strategies are so uh different than that thinking about how to cross-apply them, I think would be pretty interesting between a local business and a scaling software company.
37:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: All right, on that note, let's call it.
37:06
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to the