Latest / Inside The Consulting Room - Understanding the Child Behind the Behaviour / The label part 2 (the other episode was abruptly ended)

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The label part 2 (the other episode was abruptly ended) · Inside The Consulting Room - Understanding the Child Behind the Behaviour

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome back.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: I should apologize that the first episode ended rather abruptly, so I'm going to just carry on from where I left off.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I was saying that a parent who can't contemplate any contribution on their own may very well appear rigid and not open to the child's experience.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: But equally, professionals should not use a parent's willingness to reflect as an admission that the safeguarding concerns are unfounded.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Both possibilities can coexist.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: The sixth principle is to work with professionals without surrendering independent judgment.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Parents should provide concise information and respond to reasonable requests and ask clear questions.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Now this is this is important because in a situation where I'm asked to examine a court bundle before taking on a case, I will ask questions of the quite often hundreds of pages of information that I think are particularly relevant.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, there's a diagnosis.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: How is that formed?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Who made it?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Was it a diagnosis or was it an idea?
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Here's a statement which appears to have informed the court.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: What's the evidence that supports the statement?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: So how has the child's refusal been explained?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: What alternative explanations were tested?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: What safeguards are proposed?
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: How were they monitored?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think these are the kinds of questions that I would ask, because they fall within the remit of me producing an informed clinical formulation, but which also asks questions.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it may be not because not because I I've assumed that the information is inadequate, but I want to know more.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because if if I uh see that the conclusion has occurred as a consequence of an assessment that follows the protocols, that's going to inform uh my opinion.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I might very well support the finding as a consequence.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: But I also want parents to know this is something that they can do.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: They can ask questions.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: They can also point out anomalies.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: They can point out where there are factual errors, and they are entirely at liberty to disclose those errors and correct them.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: And a focused correction carries more weight than a wholesale attack on the professional concerned.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I think this is important because professionals are fallible human beings and their opinions are not always accepted by others.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it should not be assumed that if a professional has written something that others disagree with, it is necessarily the case that professionals got it wrong.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Nonetheless, I think what's important is that the professional concern handles this with integrity.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: It shouldn't become an argument.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, but I I I come back to the point that the a parent is perfectly entitled to question opinions.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: They're perfectly entitled to question how conclusions have been arrived at, and they're they're also entitled to question, well, what what's the evidence?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: This is reasonable for for both parties, and actually that evidence, whatever evidence is provided by parents, I think it should have undergone an objective observation.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: And too often what we get are situations in which representatives with a legal representatives will be arguing their particular their particular their particular case from a position that they've decided is the right approach from the outset.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about barristers running with arguments.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: What's the argument?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: What's the argument I'm going to use to get the best result for my client?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: That is not about children.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: That is about what is the best result, what's the best argument.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, questioning the argument is not something which parents necessarily know how to do.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: What, however, parents can do is they can ask questions.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: They can say, well, where's the evidence that supports this idea?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: How was that evidence gathered?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: What was the communication between the relevant agencies which supports that this opinion that's being offered actually uh holds water?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, or or or or is is this a is this a case that certain labels have been used and therefore everybody must comply with with the label?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because let's face it, court's no different to anywhere else.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: If the same tone gets used again and again, it becomes the truth.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And the idea of a barrister saying, I put it to you that is part of the argument that the barrister will run.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: And just because the barrister says, I put it to you that doesn't make it the truth.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I would be inclined to say, what is the evidence that puts you in a position to say that I put it to you that?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: What is the evidence?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: How have you gathered that evidence?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's entirely reasonable for a parent to ask questions and to approach the judge and say, I'm not happy with the way that this is being put to me because it doesn't appear to be supported by anything.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's the bold parent that does that.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: None, but but but in reality, why not?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Why not ask questions?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you are somebody who is speaking the truth and you have genuine concerns, or indeed for the sake of balance, the parent who feels they're being wrongly accused of a safeguarding concern, it's perfectly reasonable to say, well, how do you arrive at that?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: How did you come to the conclusion that there is a risk?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because people have to provide evidence.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: And what this does is it throws the responsibility back on to the people who are supposed to be conducting a fair and child-centered inquiry.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's really important.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think what happens quite understandably is that parents who are involved in prolonged proceedings feel frightened, enraged, and exhausted, and they feel powerless.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and I that that that obviously has to be the case, which because we're not we're not we're talking about we're not talking about a piece of property, although sometimes sometimes it might feel that way.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about a small person to whom both parents are attached and to whom the child is attached.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: So we're into a very, very powerful emotional area.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Nonetheless, we have to take the emotional component elsewhere.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: We have to, and that that's really important.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: Very often, parents will say, in all kinds of situations, not just these, parents will say things like, in and this is in response to the question, what is what is this like for you?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: What is this like for you as the parent?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: When I inquire as to how the parent is experiencing the situation, quite often parents will say, Well, it's not about me, the child comes first.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I say, actually, no, that that's not how it works.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because we can't separate what you're experiencing from what the child is experiencing.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: This is part of the picture.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to pay attention to that too.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Not criticism, it's not trying to catch anybody out, it's me trying to say basically, help me understand.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because I believe that if we can support parents, they're better positioned to support and help their children rather than trying to just manage the situation whilst being under considerable emotional pressure themselves.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so for that reason, I think it's important that parents can get the kind of support that they need, whether that comes from trusted adults, legal advisors, or specialists, domestic abuse services, or people like me.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: And seeking support is not evidence of weakness.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it it I and I have heard, well, clearly it must be the case that she's mentally ill, she's seeing a therapist.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Another view is, no, she's not mentally ill.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: My goodness, isn't she suffering?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Why might that be?
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: So what I think this cover of help does is to it it reassures the parent you're not alone.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: This is something which is it is common.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's not evidence of weakness that you're seeking help.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: It it also says it's okay for you to feel this way and to communicate it here.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you can communicate it here, maybe then it won't leak into the case.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: And as a clinician, you know, I've done so much of that work, and I see people really, really suffering and needing to give that suffering expression safely and without judgment, so that they can approach and manage the situation differently.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, by and large, it it seems to help.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now but this this is this is where I run into real difficulties because all of the things I'm talking about really relate to how all professionals, in my view, should operate.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: There needs to be a wider understanding of the different complex components and a model that includes all relevant professionals to communicate with each other.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: They there is a need, I think, and a very powerful need, to ensure that not only parents have a voice, but the professionals talk to each other and that they have intelligent models to assess.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that it is it is important that evidence can be tested, it can be objectively scrutinized, but it should follow the guidance that I referred to earlier, and I'm afraid all too often it doesn't.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Just because the guidance is there doesn't mean it's necessarily followed.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: And there are all sorts of explanations, one of which is you have to put the pressure, the services are under pressure.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: We have far too many cases and far too little resources.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, that's true.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: But in the meantime, we've got children suffering.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: So uh what what what needs to happen?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, we we can't just kick the responsibility down the road.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually as much our responsibility as anybody else's.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: And as a somebody who has worked uh as an advocate, the motivation for doing that means that is is essentially rooted in, well, just because nobody else is doing it doesn't mean I don't have to.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: And okay, that's that's a personal principle, but I also think it's right.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, it's hard work.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: We work at the sharp end, but accepting the status quo means that the outcome is bad for children and families.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I think this is this is something which in doing this series, you know, I've I've I've learned about different things, and what it's really brought my attention to is the fact that once again we have a system which is often inadequate and which people have little faith in.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: And for that reason, I think there is a need to challenge that system and to support the Domestic Beef Council and to reinforce the government guidelines where justice procedures are concerned.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there are some very important principles in this podcast.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: We have to remember that the central message of this series is that a child's refusal is not a diagnosis.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: A claim of alienation isn't proof of manipulation.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: A claim of protection isn't proof of danger.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: But each one of those things is a reason to investigate.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: When a parent is wrongly accused of alienation, the temptation is to fight the label.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: But the stronger position is to move beyond it.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Remain accurate, reflective, proportionate, and record what happens.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Use appropriate professional and legal routes, ask questions, support every relationship which can safely benefit the child.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: Do not allow pressure, accusation, or intimidation to force the abandonment of legal safeguarding concerns.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: I I this is really important.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: Accusation and intimidation are part of the whole pattern.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: My experience is that when accusation or intimidation is part of the picture, it's almost always paper thin.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: And a robust response that is informed and proportionate really, really shows it speaks for itself.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: This is informed protectiveness, it's not obstruction and it's not capitulation.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's sustained, evidence-led protection of a child while the tooth of a complex situation is being established.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: When a child says no to contact, our responsibility is not to make the refusal disappear.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's to understand it.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Only then can we decide what safety, recovery, and relationship might probably look like.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because the more carefully we examine the meaning of a child's refusal, the less likely we are to lose that child behind a label.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to reiterate something, which is that this podcast, uh, a much of the detail within it is for the UK listeners.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Those in the United States and those in Europe will find links in respect of European law, state law, and federal law, and the guidance accordingly.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because the message is universal.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: However, there are different legal structures in place in different countries, and I'm very aware of the fact that those listeners and subscribers from different parts of the world may need to look at the recommendations I'm making within the context of their own country's legislation and policies.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.