Latest / Going Direct Conversations / #61 INSIDE GOING DIRECT: What, “Going Direct” Actually Means

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#61 INSIDE GOING DIRECT: What, “Going Direct” Actually Means · Going Direct Conversations

0:01
SPEAKER_01: creating something beautiful in the world, it's art.
0:04
SPEAKER_01: You have to be able to design that more decentralized system
0:20
SPEAKER_01: Hey, my friends, Jordan here.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: Just a few words before we hop into today's episode.
0:24
SPEAKER_01: First and foremost,
0:25
SPEAKER_01: a sincere thank you and appreciation for all of our early listeners,
0:28
SPEAKER_01: readers,
0:29
SPEAKER_01: and supporters at Going Direct.
0:31
It's really what keeps me going to do this each and every week
0:33
because there's
0:33
SPEAKER_01: clearly a community of
0:35
of folks out there looking to build a going direct economy,
0:38
which gets me super excited.
0:40
SPEAKER_01: Secondly, if you haven't subscribed, please do so.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: Our main channel and community is forming over on Substack.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: The link is in the show notes below.
0:47
And we'll also be putting out our weekly conversations at
0:50
YouTube,
0:50
Spotify,
0:51
and Apple podcasts.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: I hope you all have a great day and remember to go direct.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: All right.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: The first ever in-person going direct podcast.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm very happy this is happening with me.
1:06
SPEAKER_01: Cheers, Rafiq.
1:08
SPEAKER_01: This is the first to many, hopefully.
1:11
SPEAKER_00: So this time I'm asking a few questions.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: So let's go back to what we were talking about previously.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: So how is it for you, this podcast venture?
1:24
SPEAKER_00: How are you enjoying it?
1:27
SPEAKER_00: And I also would like to know the struggles you're having
1:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: And then where do you see it going?
1:35
SPEAKER_01: So it's been a little over a year since I since I started.
1:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's been a year.
1:40
SPEAKER_01: So I think I'm like 50 50 conversations in.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: But,
1:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:45
this is something that has been on my mind that's been kind of
1:48
forming for several
1:49
SPEAKER_01: years.
1:51
that I didn't know really what it was and what it actually
1:57
meant for several years.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: And I was at this idea of like decentralization in the real world,
2:01
getting closer to the products that we buy and people that make
2:04
them and creating
2:05
SPEAKER_01: these decentralized systems to do that.
2:07
Like that was something that has been like an ongoing process
2:11
for me to kind of
2:13
SPEAKER_01: kind of,
2:13
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
2:14
SPEAKER_01: kind of discovering,
2:15
SPEAKER_00: discover,
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SPEAKER_00: drill down into the three pillars of building this going direct economy.
2:19
SPEAKER_01: And so
2:22
SPEAKER_01: You know,
2:22
SPEAKER_01: when I started on this journey,
2:24
SPEAKER_01: I'm like,
2:24
SPEAKER_01: I don't...
2:25
SPEAKER_01: Actually,
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SPEAKER_00: I just understood what going direct means just now.
2:31
SPEAKER_00: Because I thought going direct as a podcast,
2:34
SPEAKER_00: going online,
2:35
SPEAKER_00: but it's going direct,
2:38
SPEAKER_00: same as going directly to the customer.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: God, I'm just mind blown.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: I understand the play on words.
2:47
SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
2:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so the whole idea being we are...
2:52
We are inside of a middleman-laden,
2:56
highly financialized economy where no one makes anything.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: You're talking to a crypto guy, so I completely understand.
3:03
SPEAKER_01: So that's the backdrop of this.
3:06
And it's like,
3:07
obviously,
3:07
the current system is not working for the vast majority.
3:10
And so I believe that decentralized systems are the way to
3:16
create the most amount
3:17
SPEAKER_01: of prosperity for the greatest number of people,
3:19
SPEAKER_01: just inherently.
3:21
SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't until this kind of these emerging technology,
3:26
SPEAKER_01: technology with AI and robotics kind of coming together where I'm like,
3:29
SPEAKER_01: oh,
3:30
SPEAKER_01: actually,
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SPEAKER_01: you can start to build some pretty compelling,
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SPEAKER_01: highly automated systems,
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AI native systems that that can be more decentralized and more
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localized and
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SPEAKER_01: actually compete.
3:40
So I think until it was until I saw kind of the pace of what
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the technology was
3:46
SPEAKER_01: doing or was going to enable these new business models.
3:48
SPEAKER_01: It was kind of a pipe dream, right?
3:50
SPEAKER_01: This idea of localized production, decentralized facilities.
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SPEAKER_00: And you were also on food.
3:56
I remember you were looking for a decentralized way to produce
4:00
food,
4:00
which is a hard stuff.
4:01
Well,
4:02
I mean,
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it's funny because food has always been inherently
4:05
decentralized,
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right?
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SPEAKER_01: In the US, it's not.
4:09
SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: food is just one of the industries,
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SPEAKER_01: and specifically in the US,
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SPEAKER_01: we've just completely botched it.
4:18
SPEAKER_01: You know, we, we've completely messed it up.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: It's not even about the food anymore.
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SPEAKER_01: It's really a multimodal transportation system.
4:25
SPEAKER_01: You know,
4:25
SPEAKER_01: to back to your question,
4:27
SPEAKER_01: it was really just been a discovery for me in most people,
4:30
SPEAKER_01: you know,
4:30
SPEAKER_01: because it's a wide variety of topics,
4:32
SPEAKER_01: this idea like there's three pillars to the going direct economy.
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SPEAKER_01: There's decentralized production.
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There's have you build more,
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more highly automated,
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more decentralized production capabilities.
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SPEAKER_01: There's this kind of middle layer, which is wholesale distribution.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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How do you turn wholesale distribution in the real economy to
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where distributors
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are more like connectors versus gatekeepers that stand in
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between the customer and
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SPEAKER_01: the producer?
4:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: And then the last one is kind of this direct marketing pillar,
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which is just the coordination of independent creators and
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going direct to your
5:01
SPEAKER_01: audience,
5:01
SPEAKER_01: which which is obviously media was the first to fall.
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SPEAKER_01: And I think many other industries hopefully will will will follow suit.
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So this is like a complicated,
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like overarching kind of framework and in like worldview.
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SPEAKER_01: And so that's how I describe it.
5:16
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of my worldview.
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SPEAKER_01: I've committed to kind of doing, you know, first hundred conversations.
5:23
And what's been really fun about that beyond being able to
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connect with like-minded
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SPEAKER_01: folks from a variety of different industries,
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you actually are speaking to people every week who spend their
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entire lives,
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focus on like really interesting problems and building these
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new technologies and
5:39
systems to create a more decentralized world in the amount you
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can learn from these
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SPEAKER_01: people.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: And so there is just like nuggets and just,
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there's just basically a mound of amazing information and
5:50
insight in these
5:51
SPEAKER_01: recordings.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: And so,
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SPEAKER_01: the idea is once I kind of get a hundred and then really,
5:56
SPEAKER_01: really dialing in the,
5:59
SPEAKER_01: the communication,
6:00
the repurposing the content to really support the people's work
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that I'm having the
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SPEAKER_01: conversations with.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: So, so, okay.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: I get it now after one year.
6:09
SPEAKER_00: So I have so many questions.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: I would love to know if you, if you're struggling,
6:20
SPEAKER_00: Because every time I see a new conversation, you pop online.
6:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, how did he get to know this guy?
6:27
SPEAKER_00: How did he get to connect with this person?
6:30
SPEAKER_00: How did he know about this technology or this writer?
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One time you spoke with a guy who wrote a book on and how do
6:40
you so how do you do
6:42
SPEAKER_00: you struggle to get them?
6:45
SPEAKER_00: And if you don't or if you do, how do you get to find those people?
6:50
SPEAKER_01: That's a good question.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
6:51
SPEAKER_01: listen,
6:51
this is it's a small little niche podcast right now because
6:55
it's also it's just
6:56
SPEAKER_01: it's not it's kind of not my day job.
6:59
SPEAKER_01: It's it is part of what I do.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: And it's it's it's my belief system.
7:03
SPEAKER_01: So it's very straightforward.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:07
it's just when i read something really interesting or i watch
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something really
7:09
interesting i i just i do cold outreach or i if there's someone
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that i know that
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they mention on the podcast and it's an introduction that's
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kind of how it how it
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flows one of the things people always say is and is how you and
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i know each other
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it's you know you start with your friends and you start with
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your close network and
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um we'll talk about it but kind of your journey in helio sand
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and um i'm an early
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SPEAKER_01: investor in the venture and that's how we originally met um
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You just start with that because you realize those are the
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people that care about.
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You and what you're thinking about it,
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who are going to support you and vice versa.
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SPEAKER_01: So I'm saying it's your question.
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No,
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plenty of people respectfully say no,
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of course,
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they don't or don't respond.
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SPEAKER_01: But I think I'm just very straightforward with what I'm trying to do.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: It's like I'm clear.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: It's like I'm not like this is about like building.
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a really good corpse of content and building a really
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intentional community around it.
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SPEAKER_01: And like,
8:05
SPEAKER_01: even throughout this process,
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just being able to connect with other people that I've had
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conversations with,
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SPEAKER_01: with other people in the community and in my network,
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SPEAKER_01: like that's the fun for me,
8:14
SPEAKER_01: you know?
8:15
SPEAKER_00: So, so you're not, you're not struggling.
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SPEAKER_00: You're enjoying every moment of it.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's a, let me be clear.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: It's a slog.
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SPEAKER_01: It is because it's a labor of love.
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SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
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and you know i guess it goes back to going back to what are
8:28
your goals my goal is
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not to like compete with other you know podcasters or um
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there's a shitload of
8:37
content coming out every day um people's attention are split in
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a million different
8:42
directions and so you know i'm just more of like what are the
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things that i'm
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interested in that exude this kind of value set and kind of
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future that i want to
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SPEAKER_01: help build yeah so
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And your point is to do a hundred,
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a hundred podcasts and you,
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you will learn so much of it.
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SPEAKER_00: And, uh, it's also for us.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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I've been listening to a couple of them and I've been learning
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a lot of stuff that
9:09
SPEAKER_00: I didn't,
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SPEAKER_00: uh,
9:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: I didn't even know there were so many people,
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SPEAKER_00: uh,
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SPEAKER_00: looking into decentralized production and,
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SPEAKER_00: um,
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SPEAKER_00: and even myself.
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SPEAKER_00: So since I have a technology of, um,
9:24
SPEAKER_00: um you know recycling horrible waste i realized what i'm doing is also a
9:30
decentralized way of so you and i met and went into business
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without even knowing
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SPEAKER_00: so the the belief system in fact you you built that belief system because
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You had the several sensitivities and interests and you sort of
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made it into a
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rigorous way of thinking because I only thought about
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decentralization with
10:01
SPEAKER_00: finance.
10:02
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
10:03
SPEAKER_01: For sure.
10:03
SPEAKER_00: So how did it come to you?
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SPEAKER_00: How did you discover it was that?
10:07
SPEAKER_01: Oh, man.
10:08
SPEAKER_01: It was like a journey, right?
10:09
SPEAKER_01: Because it was...
10:11
SPEAKER_01: And I struggled with it for,
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
10:14
SPEAKER_01: for like three or four years because I was like,
10:15
SPEAKER_01: what's,
10:16
SPEAKER_01: you know,
10:16
SPEAKER_01: what is this next chapter going to be for me?
10:18
And what I realized is when I look back and after a few years
10:24
in Silicon Valley
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SPEAKER_01: working at a private equity firm and I went back to Detroit,
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And I spent over a decade there doing really deep community
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building work.
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SPEAKER_01: I started a commercial real estate development firm,
10:36
really focused on economic development and creating jobs for
10:39
Detroiters and
10:40
attracting talent back to the city when the city is going
10:43
through bankruptcy.
10:44
And what I realized was the reason why I was doing that work
10:47
was around how do we
10:48
SPEAKER_01: move back towards a production-oriented economy?
10:51
SPEAKER_01: So how do we start making stuff again?
10:53
SPEAKER_01: And my thesis in Detroit was where I'm from, we make stuff there.
10:57
SPEAKER_01: We have the supply chains.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: That's our differentiator.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: It's the birth of American manufacturing, right?
11:05
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the cars, automotive, the big three.
11:09
So,
11:10
you know,
11:11
and when I stepped back and I said,
11:12
my work never had to do with real estate.
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SPEAKER_01: That was just a vessel.
11:15
And that was just like also an investment opportunity,
11:17
long-term investment opportunity.
11:20
but it was really about this idea of how do you kind of start
11:24
thinking about
11:25
SPEAKER_01: building like more localized communities,
11:27
SPEAKER_01: stronger,
11:28
SPEAKER_01: more localized communities,
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SPEAKER_01: shrinking supply chains,
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SPEAKER_01: building space for companies,
11:32
SPEAKER_01: making things again.
11:33
SPEAKER_01: That's like what the ethos of what we were trying to do.
11:36
And so what I realized was I was doing all along the way and
11:41
then making a lot of
11:42
SPEAKER_01: different investment,
11:44
SPEAKER_01: angel investments.
11:44
And I was just realizing that there are all these little pieces
11:47
and I'm like,
11:49
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I have to put this together somehow.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it has to make sense.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: It has to make sense.
11:53
And then and then what was happening was it was really through
11:56
my angel investing
11:57
SPEAKER_01: work where I was like,
11:58
because I was paying attention to what different emerging
12:00
technologies and what was
12:01
SPEAKER_01: going on and then geopolitically what's happening,
12:03
SPEAKER_01: where the world's going.
12:05
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, five years ago, I was like, I was like.
12:09
SPEAKER_01: Five years ago is when I started investing in industrial tech.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: This is now it's like everyone's like jumping on the bandwagon.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: Partly is because I'm more of a real economy guy.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: But secondly, I just saw that's where we were going geopolitically.
12:21
SPEAKER_01: That's where we were going.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: We didn't have any choice.
12:23
SPEAKER_01: COVID showed us that.
12:25
SPEAKER_01: So anyway,
12:27
and then when I saw AI and robotics develop at this level of
12:32
where it is today in
12:33
SPEAKER_01: the chat GPT moment and now with physical AI,
12:35
SPEAKER_01: I was like,
12:37
SPEAKER_01: okay,
12:38
so we know if we want to create more decentralized systems and
12:41
more localized
12:41
SPEAKER_01: production and get closer to the products that we buy,
12:43
SPEAKER_01: it all starts with production,
12:46
SPEAKER_01: obviously.
12:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: And so it wasn't until,
12:49
SPEAKER_01: Oh,
12:49
now these technologies are coming that decentralized production
12:53
could act in
12:54
SPEAKER_01: certain industries could actually become a fit,
12:56
SPEAKER_01: like a real thing.
12:57
SPEAKER_00: Make it doable.
12:58
SPEAKER_00: You mean?
12:59
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: Make it doable.
13:00
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: Because that's a problem with you Europeans.
13:03
You guys are too,
13:04
um,
13:05
you guys are too altruistic around the free market is brutal.
13:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:14
so anyways so so yes it was the decentralized production and
13:17
then this theme of
13:19
wholesale distribution which was as when you think about this
13:22
is how really it
13:23
started for me i was like there's all these distributors who
13:26
are gatekeepers in
13:27
these in the physical world industries like you have to work
13:29
through them to get
13:30
any type of distribution and i'm like when you think about what
13:34
they do they were
13:35
SPEAKER_01: designed around the last industrial revolution so think about this yeah
13:38
SPEAKER_01: They were designed around these large centralized systems.
13:42
They provided amazing value because they're providing logistics
13:45
and trucking and
13:45
warehousing and aggregating products for the buyer and doing
13:48
all this stuff.
13:50
SPEAKER_01: Then I was like, all that's going to be commoditized the way to zero.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: What do you mean?
13:55
SPEAKER_01: Trucking is going to go to autonomous trucking.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: Warehousing is going to be widely automated.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: Then you have more and more perfect market.
14:02
SPEAKER_01: All these middlemen are going to continue to get squeezed.
14:05
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
14:06
SPEAKER_01: So my whole thing was like,
14:07
SPEAKER_01: well,
14:07
if we know that's the case and you have more and more access to
14:10
information,
14:12
SPEAKER_01: then the wholesale distribution model needs to change.
14:16
SPEAKER_01: And so the only way you can do that is you have to vertically integrate.
14:19
If you both produce and you self-distribute,
14:21
which is a conversation we can get into.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: Or if you do have this distribution layer,
14:27
SPEAKER_01: it should function much more like a network versus a gatekeeper.
14:31
SPEAKER_01: So it's how do you connect buyers and sellers directly,
14:33
SPEAKER_01: not say,
14:34
SPEAKER_01: hey,
14:35
SPEAKER_01: work through me,
14:36
SPEAKER_01: but you don't even know who your customer is.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: So in your opinion, what country is the most suited
14:47
SPEAKER_00: to decentralize production.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: Because let's say we have three poles,
14:57
SPEAKER_00: Asia with India and China,
14:59
SPEAKER_00: which is the biggest manufacturer.
15:02
SPEAKER_00: Then you have Europe, which manufactures a little.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: Then you have America.
15:09
SPEAKER_00: Africa, unfortunately, is not a producer.
15:12
SPEAKER_00: They're a resource-based economy.
15:18
SPEAKER_00: But South America has production.
15:22
SPEAKER_00: North America has production, not that big, not as big as Asia.
15:27
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
15:28
Europe has also very specific luxury watches and brand-oriented
15:36
manufacturers.
15:37
SPEAKER_00: So which one of those three poles,
15:40
SPEAKER_00: in your opinion,
15:42
SPEAKER_00: is going to be able to go to decentralized production?
15:49
SPEAKER_01: It's hard to say.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: It's hard.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
15:51
SPEAKER_01: listen,
15:51
SPEAKER_01: China is just from,
15:53
SPEAKER_01: and I haven't been,
15:53
SPEAKER_01: so this is just anecdotally from everything I see here when I speak to,
15:57
SPEAKER_01: but what you see and what you read and what I know,
15:59
SPEAKER_01: they're just so far ahead.
16:02
It's just not even,
16:02
it's not even,
16:03
and so,
16:04
but then this is where kind of geopolitics comes in.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: This is where industrial policy come in.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: And so one of the things that I go back to when you ask me is,
16:15
SPEAKER_01: I go back to like disposable income.
16:21
SPEAKER_01: And the United States is the wealthiest nation in the world.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: And so when you ask this question about decentralized production,
16:29
which means you need to have more domestic demand for the
16:32
things that you're
16:33
SPEAKER_01: producing.
16:35
SPEAKER_01: And with just the ethos of the United States and Americans,
16:39
I think America is the most interesting from an end market
16:43
standpoint because they
16:43
SPEAKER_01: have the consumer market.
16:46
SPEAKER_01: I just don't know.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: We have a lot of challenges, I would say, just to get there.
16:53
So from the podcast you've been doing,
16:56
it's mostly American people,
16:57
right?
16:59
SPEAKER_01: You came with a lot of questions.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: I like it.
17:02
I have many questions that I couldn't ask during listening to
17:07
your podcast.
17:07
SPEAKER_00: So now I ask them.
17:09
So because here in Europe,
17:13
you have decentralized way of doing agriculture.
17:17
SPEAKER_00: It exists.
17:19
You have little wine makers,
17:21
you have little producers,
17:23
but it's not generalized.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: OK, you can find it here and there.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: Italy.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: is very good with decentralized production.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: It's small size companies, family companies.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
17:37
SPEAKER_00: But Europe in itself is copying the American model badly.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: But America has the only one.
17:47
I mean,
17:48
it's the only intellectualized or thoughtful way of seeing
17:56
decentralization.
17:57
Here in Europe,
17:58
we just have a guy who wants to produce honey that is not from
18:05
the supermarket.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: Then you get this, okay?
18:08
SPEAKER_00: In America,
18:09
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
18:10
SPEAKER_00: the broadcast you've done,
18:12
SPEAKER_00: it's people nearly going through philosophy of what is decentralization.
18:17
So I'm wondering if the U.S.
18:22
isn't the terrain,
18:24
the right terrain for that.
18:29
SPEAKER_01: I would say the U.S. is such an...
18:31
SPEAKER_01: It's what I know, so the best.
18:34
SPEAKER_01: So it's obviously the most comfortable there.
18:35
SPEAKER_01: But what's so interesting about the U.S. is because it's so big,
18:40
And the way that manufacturing was set up and how we ship goods
18:43
and everything is
18:43
SPEAKER_01: just this really unique use case for more decentralized production.
18:48
SPEAKER_01: Because so if you take France,
18:50
SPEAKER_01: for example,
18:51
you made this comment around one of the things I love about it
18:55
in Europe is,
18:56
SPEAKER_01: you know,
18:56
SPEAKER_01: the the more artisanal culture,
18:58
SPEAKER_01: the more localized production and everything like the government.
19:04
SPEAKER_01: The government protects it.
19:07
In society,
19:09
the respect you have for the butcher and the baker is like,
19:12
I love it.
19:13
SPEAKER_01: I think it's such a special thing and it affects your daily life.
19:19
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
19:21
SPEAKER_01: So back to your question,
19:23
I think the Europe and specifically France have a lot of
19:27
experience in France.
19:30
It's just because you're in a much smaller geographic area,
19:34
so it's easier.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: So I think the thing about the US, which is unique, is it's very big.
19:41
And so you have a big playground,
19:43
I would say,
19:45
to figure out different models.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: And then you do have the consumer culture.
19:50
SPEAKER_00: In Europe, tech is never going to be decentralized.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: That's the issue.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: Well, you could say the same in the US, right?
20:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you think so?
20:05
SPEAKER_00: It's not possible,
20:05
SPEAKER_00: in your opinion,
20:06
SPEAKER_00: to decentralize tech because it's all coming from the Silicon Valley,
20:12
SPEAKER_00: most of it.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: And Miami is trying to be a tech hub.
20:20
Harvard is a huge tech hub for med tech and stuff like this
20:25
biotech even New York
20:30
New York has a lot of tech interesting people but elsewhere
20:37
even Texas who's
20:39
bringing in more and more tech people has less influence and
20:44
less creativity and
20:49
SPEAKER_00: less opportunities than those poles.
20:55
So what I'm trying to say here is that decentralization is a
21:01
huge,
21:03
difficult thing to do.
21:05
SPEAKER_00: And here in Europe, we have the about food and artisanal stuff.
21:10
SPEAKER_00: But tech is you don't have artisanal tech here in Europe.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: And I don't see it in the US.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, listen, that's the main thing, right?
21:21
SPEAKER_01: Most people say,
21:22
SPEAKER_01: obviously,
21:22
SPEAKER_01: you're going to see more and more of the barbell economy,
21:25
SPEAKER_01: the concentration of wealth.
21:27
That's their fear that you're just going to see more
21:31
centralization of everything.
21:32
SPEAKER_01: There's decentralization.
21:34
I've had several conversations with folks on the pod,
21:38
much smarter than me on this thing.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: And a couple of things I really appreciated is,
21:45
SPEAKER_01: One of them is kind of, they described as like a yin and yang.
21:48
So it's really not about,
21:50
oh,
21:50
is centralized better,
21:51
decentralized better.
21:52
It's just about when the centralized system gets so sclerotic
21:55
and messed up and
21:56
SPEAKER_01: it's just not providing a good product or service to the people.
21:59
SPEAKER_01: something better comes along.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:01
So it's like the world or the use constantly kind of swing back
22:05
and forth between
22:06
SPEAKER_01: centralization and decentralization over time.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: And one of the interesting things about was if you think about it,
22:11
SPEAKER_01: it's like everything back in the day was centralized.
22:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:13
SPEAKER_00: The 19th century.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:16
SPEAKER_00: 80% of humans were entrepreneurs, meaning small artists.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:21
SPEAKER_01: And so it's like, so, okay, so everything.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: So it's like,
22:23
SPEAKER_01: just imagine,
22:23
just think about how it was then learn from then and apply
22:26
modern day technologies
22:28
SPEAKER_01: to what we're doing and,
22:29
SPEAKER_01: hopefully somewhere in between.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: And then the second one,
22:34
SPEAKER_01: which has been a really interesting learning,
22:35
SPEAKER_01: and I want to get your perspective on it as well,
22:40
SPEAKER_01: is...
22:41
SPEAKER_01: And this is more from the VC standpoint,
22:45
SPEAKER_01: which is...
22:47
um because i've spoken to a few folks that decentralization is
22:51
not like a theme of
22:52
theirs but they've invested in several companies that are that
22:56
are building
22:56
infrastructure for more decentralized production and a few
23:00
times i heard kind of
23:01
the perspective of um they're not dogmatic about
23:06
decentralization they're just like
23:08
SPEAKER_01: hey this is actually just a market opportunity um
23:11
And you could build a really big,
23:12
interesting,
23:12
high impactful business doing it.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: But it's not because it's decentral.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: It's not because it has this decentralization theme.
23:20
So so one of the things I've learned in in this like,
23:24
which is where where I'm going to release.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: I've even recently shifted a lot of my conversations recently.
23:30
a way for most of my conversations the first year were
23:34
obviously specific founders
23:36
building specific solutions to kind of hitting one of these
23:39
three pillars right
23:40
decentralized production changing wholesale distribution or or
23:43
the creator economy
23:45
and one of the things that i really realized was for most of
23:48
them they're not
23:49
looking at it through this decentralization lens or like the
23:52
going direct economy
23:53
SPEAKER_01: lens so
23:55
This is where the repurposing and now really dialing in the
23:58
communication about going direct.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: That's what like as I'm going into the second half of the year,
24:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to be focused on because it's because it's such a broad thing.
24:06
Like the same themes have to come up like you didn't even
24:08
understand fully.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: Right.
24:10
Because it's like I'm having a conversation with someone about
24:12
like building micro
24:14
SPEAKER_01: farms and then biotech and then,
24:17
SPEAKER_01: you know,
24:17
SPEAKER_01: someone an author writing a book on like financialization of culture.
24:20
SPEAKER_00: No, I understand.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: So even myself, I didn't know I was doing decentralized waste treatment.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: I discovered it while talking to you.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: And yes, let's let's step back.
24:32
SPEAKER_01: So let's see.
24:33
SPEAKER_01: So give give a little give a little more detail on Heliosand.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: You are the first returning guest.
24:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to have the second returning guest later this week, actually.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: It's an honor.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: Cheers.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: All right.
24:47
So just tell folks just the quick overview of Heliosan because
24:51
it really is.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: And it was funny.
24:54
SPEAKER_01: We first went.
24:54
SPEAKER_01: We never talked about decentralization.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: I didn't even know it was something I could do.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: So basically what I invented is a solar oven using a magnifying glass.
25:07
SPEAKER_00: Solar ovens are made with mirrors.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: It's expensive.
25:11
SPEAKER_00: So I was thinking, what could I do with it?
25:13
And I discovered by experimenting that I could recycle the
25:17
worst waste ever and
25:19
SPEAKER_00: turn it into a construction material.
25:22
So now we just had Hermès who brought us their waste from
25:29
manufacturing bags,
25:31
SPEAKER_00: which is the richest artisan in the world.
25:34
SPEAKER_01: That's cool.
25:36
SPEAKER_01: That's some expensive waste.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, expensive waste.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, can't you do something with it?
25:41
They're like,
25:41
no,
25:42
it's full of chemicals because they color it and they have no
25:47
solution.
25:48
So what I basically do is I recycle the worst waste ever using
25:53
solar energy.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: So you dry it out.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: You dry it out.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: Or I vitrify it.
25:59
SPEAKER_00: I mix it up with mud, depending on the waste.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: So you're the garbage man.
26:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm the future garbage man that turns garbage into an asset.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: It's a construction material at the end.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: So I'll hopefully be a rich garbage man.
26:17
SPEAKER_01: What material are you starting with again?
26:21
I have to put minerals mixed together with pollution in order
26:28
to vitrify it.
26:30
SPEAKER_00: If you put any waste under heat, it's going to burn.
26:33
SPEAKER_00: It's going to make smoke.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: Once you put sand or minerals on it, it cannot burn anymore.
26:43
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have fuel.
26:45
SPEAKER_00: The pollution in there
26:47
just gets melted into lava so the point is not to burn not to
26:55
make any smoke and we
26:58
discovered it really it wasn't in purpose we tried and failed
27:06
and tried again and
27:08
SPEAKER_00: some customer came with the
27:10
special waste and obviously it's the sales sales guy came with
27:16
the waste and we're
27:18
like no you you're too stupid you don't understand tech and the
27:23
guy was right it
27:24
was so expensive this waste was so expensive that it made sense
27:29
to look for a
27:30
SPEAKER_00: solution to render it inert
27:34
And by trial and error and recipes,
27:38
because it's an oven,
27:39
you know,
27:39
so we cook.
27:40
SPEAKER_00: I'm a cook.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: You cook garbage.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: I cook garbage and turn it into gold.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: That's exactly it.
27:47
And I think our generation also has a huge opportunity to make
27:51
money out of our
27:53
SPEAKER_01: fathers' and grandfathers' waste.
27:55
And so sometimes you need to innovate,
27:58
but sometimes you need to go back to stuff that worked.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: For example, in China,
28:04
food and especially protein production was decentralized did
28:10
you know that no well
28:11
SPEAKER_00: all food all food is a centralized but they had struggle with the protein
28:20
production okay so they invented the aquaponic small plants so
28:27
every household
28:29
SPEAKER_00: not decentralized in a way that you had a production for a village,
28:36
SPEAKER_00: It was a production for each house.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
28:38
SPEAKER_01: they lived off the land for the...
28:39
You know what's interesting was when I was at that point on our
28:44
honeymoon,
28:44
SPEAKER_01: my wife and I went to Bali.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: And I was very... We were in Indonesia.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: We went to like four or five different islands.
28:51
SPEAKER_01: And I was really impressed with how many people...
28:53
SPEAKER_01: Because the same thing,
28:54
SPEAKER_01: they all have like their own rice...
28:55
SPEAKER_01: Like literally their own rice farms.
28:57
SPEAKER_01: And they literally live off the land.
29:00
SPEAKER_01: Family by family.
29:01
SPEAKER_01: And I was not expecting that.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: It was very, very cool to see.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so...
29:06
SPEAKER_00: This culture has always been there, like you said.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: And in my opinion, it should also touch technology.
29:15
SPEAKER_00: And this is where the issue is.
29:17
SPEAKER_00: So you're right.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: AI might help us to create decentralized production means.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: So let's try to think about it.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: How does a decentralized factory, for example, making phones,
29:33
SPEAKER_00: How can we decentralize making a phone, you know?
29:38
SPEAKER_00: It's so complicated.
29:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't want to be overly prescriptive.
29:44
SPEAKER_01: When you hear decentralization,
29:46
SPEAKER_01: it's like depending on what you're talking about,
29:47
it's not like you're going to have a phone factory in every
29:49
town or something like
29:50
SPEAKER_01: that.
29:51
SPEAKER_01: You need scale.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: You need economies of scale.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: But to answer your question directly, it's all about the inputs.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: You need the full supply chain, which everyone is like,
30:00
finally woke up at some point and was like 95% of the rare
30:03
earth metals is like are
30:05
SPEAKER_01: processed in China.
30:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:07
Like,
30:07
yeah,
30:08
like you need all that stuff domestically to make the thing you
30:11
want to make.
30:13
SPEAKER_00: So what you mean is that some things can be decentralized, some others.
30:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think certain things will not for sure.
30:23
SPEAKER_01: Certain things will for sure.
30:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think.
30:26
um i heard a great so i heard a great like mental model from um
30:30
one of the one of
30:31
the pods that i did um and it was actually ian from kantos
30:35
ventures he he he had he
30:37
had several things he wrote a tweet and i reached out to him
30:40
about it because i was
30:42
like he talked about decentralization where it makes sense and
30:45
he had kind of a
30:46
SPEAKER_01: five i forgot all five points but um
30:49
He was saying one of the points is where the cost of transport
30:54
is really high
30:55
SPEAKER_01: relative to the value.
30:56
So basically what he meant is,
30:59
you know,
30:59
if you're making something and logistics is a big cost.
31:03
cost associated with what you're making so if it's big and
31:08
heavy in lower value so
31:10
let's think of like timber wood or something like that like the
31:13
idea of setting up
31:15
a more descent a decentralized production infrastructure where
31:19
you know you're
31:20
literally delivering maybe 100 miles or 200 miles you know or a
31:24
couple hundred
31:24
kilometers from you makes a big difference when you're shipping
31:27
heavy stuff
31:29
And so my point is there's there's that there's kind of that
31:33
consideration.
31:34
SPEAKER_01: Then there's also like, what are you making?
31:36
SPEAKER_01: Are you making a component?
31:37
SPEAKER_01: Are you making a finished product?
31:38
SPEAKER_01: No, I'm like a full I'm a full believer in.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: in vertical integration with whatever it is that you're making.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying you have to go from from like,
31:51
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:51
SPEAKER_01: nothing to like finished,
31:54
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:54
SPEAKER_01: finished product.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: You can actually still sell somewhere else,
31:57
SPEAKER_01: like like somewhere in the intermediate part of the supply chain,
32:00
SPEAKER_01: like chemicals,
32:01
SPEAKER_01: for instance.
32:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: But own your own distribution so you can be hybrid.
32:05
SPEAKER_00: Also, it can be part of it decentralized and part of it centralized.
32:10
Well,
32:10
I mean,
32:12
I don't really have a definition for centralized versus
32:14
decentralized.
32:14
SPEAKER_01: I think what I would say is my definition.
32:16
SPEAKER_01: I don't look at it in the way that you're thinking about it.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: I look at it in which is the idea of the system.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: I start with this.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: This is the why.
32:31
The why is,
32:32
I believe,
32:32
a big reason why we've completely lost our sense of community
32:36
and place.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: And, and we lack a lot of connection.
32:39
Happiness in life is because we're disconnected from the
32:41
products that we buy and
32:42
SPEAKER_01: the people that make them.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: And we have no connection generally,
32:46
SPEAKER_01: generally speaking in the industrialized world to those things.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: You're,
32:51
SPEAKER_01: you're the people,
32:52
SPEAKER_01: the people are,
32:52
SPEAKER_01: especially the mass market is blindly just buying stuff.
32:57
SPEAKER_01: No idea.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: And like, I'm from Detroit.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: I grew up in a place that was a company town.
33:02
All the companies sponsored the baseball teams and the soccer
33:04
teams and the football teams.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: Like it,
33:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm telling you,
33:07
SPEAKER_01: it creates this level of connection in human component when it's like,
33:12
SPEAKER_01: oh,
33:12
SPEAKER_01: my friend's dad designed this Ford,
33:17
SPEAKER_01: you know,
33:17
and you see the Ford on the road or you drive the Ford like you
33:21
have these things
33:22
SPEAKER_01: that are really,
33:23
SPEAKER_01: really important.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:23
And you understand the world you live in and you understand how
33:27
things work,
33:28
how things work.
33:29
And it's but did I go back to the same thing,
33:31
which is literally why I'm doing this,
33:33
which is.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: I believe if we, it's like very layered, right?
33:40
SPEAKER_01: Like at the individual level,
33:41
creating a happier life and a more meaningful life with more
33:44
meaningful work and
33:45
SPEAKER_01: relationships.
33:46
SPEAKER_01: When you have your production centers closer to where they're,
33:49
SPEAKER_01: um,
33:49
SPEAKER_01: where they're,
33:49
SPEAKER_01: where the products being consumed,
33:51
when you don't have layers of middlemen and opacity in between
33:53
where it's made and
33:54
SPEAKER_01: where it's consumed,
33:56
SPEAKER_01: like all these things are really,
33:57
SPEAKER_01: really important.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: And it's funny.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: I've obviously, as you know, I spent a lot of time in France and,
34:05
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, it's fascinating to me what I love.
34:08
One of the things I love about it here is like where I get
34:13
farmer's market,
34:14
SPEAKER_01: the butcher,
34:14
SPEAKER_01: the cheese shop,
34:16
SPEAKER_01: the bakery,
34:16
SPEAKER_01: like you create relations,
34:18
you create real relationships with these people because you're
34:21
seeing them multiple
34:21
SPEAKER_01: times a week.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: It's their work.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: It like it's just it's very, very special.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: And I tell people that all the time.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: It's it's and it has a huge impact and happiness in your life.
34:33
SPEAKER_01: People would be shocked at how happy having a perfectly crusted,
34:37
SPEAKER_01: warm baguette is that you can eat and not feel bloated.
34:40
And you can have that every day made by the person on your
34:43
street that wakes up at four.
34:46
SPEAKER_01: to do it.
34:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:47
SPEAKER_00: It's crazy, right?
34:49
SPEAKER_00: Crazy.
34:49
SPEAKER_00: Bankers live during the night just to feed us with fresh fucking bread.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:57
SPEAKER_00: It's crazy.
34:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: And so today I spoke with the Paris airport company.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: And they are re-renovating some places of the airport that are so old.
35:17
SPEAKER_00: So landing, how do you call this?
35:20
SPEAKER_00: Landing roads or taking off roads?
35:23
SPEAKER_00: Runways.
35:23
SPEAKER_00: Runways.
35:24
SPEAKER_00: Very old runways.
35:26
SPEAKER_00: So they're taking them apart and rebuilding stuff.
35:30
SPEAKER_00: And they discovered huge pollution.
35:35
SPEAKER_00: So they were like, so how is it going to happen?
35:39
SPEAKER_00: Should we ship the waste to you?
35:42
SPEAKER_00: So exactly what you said.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: Transport makes sense.
35:49
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
35:49
it gives meaning to whether you centralize or decentralize the
35:54
way you solve the
35:55
SPEAKER_00: problem.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: So what I told them is, I was thinking...
36:00
SPEAKER_00: And I told him, you can't send me your waste.
36:02
SPEAKER_00: It's just a one shot.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: So what you should do is rent one of my machines.
36:07
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
36:08
SPEAKER_01: Treat it at the source.
36:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: And I come over there,
36:12
SPEAKER_00: turn all your horrible stuff into construction material,
36:15
SPEAKER_00: and then you rebuild whatever you want on site.
36:17
SPEAKER_00: There's only the transportation of the machine.
36:21
SPEAKER_00: And they were blown away.
36:22
SPEAKER_00: I was like, you guys haven't thought about it.
36:25
SPEAKER_00: You guys haven't thought about it.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: And then so the Paris airport is sitting on a very difficult waist.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: And they couldn't tell me.
36:38
SPEAKER_00: They couldn't tell me the amount.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: They couldn't tell me the specifics.
36:43
SPEAKER_00: They were like, you have to sign a very aggressive.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: Seriously?
36:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: Before we give you all the information.
36:49
SPEAKER_00: And they said also I have to be in contract with them.
36:53
So I have to do like a first sample trial that they pay in
36:59
order to implicate all
37:02
SPEAKER_00: the legal consequences to me.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to France, everyone.
37:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
37:08
so let's try to dig into this because you and I are the
37:17
opposite of everything you
37:18
SPEAKER_00: can see in the media.
37:20
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm European, you're American.
37:23
SPEAKER_00: We're doing business together.
37:24
SPEAKER_00: This is not often that Americans invest into European businesses.
37:29
I mean,
37:31
I'm Muslim,
37:31
you're Jewish,
37:33
and we're friends having whiskey together.
37:35
SPEAKER_00: And then...
37:37
So there are so many things about us that people don't know and
37:41
you can't see in
37:42
SPEAKER_00: the media and people can't imagine that this type of relationship exists.
37:49
So how come that you enjoy doing business in France while
37:56
you're connecting so hard
37:59
SPEAKER_00: with the American business?
38:01
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's not something...
38:04
SPEAKER_00: Easy, because in French, we don't have that entrepreneurship spirit.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm so happy I have you.
38:10
SPEAKER_00: Are you happy to have us?
38:12
SPEAKER_01: That's the question.
38:15
SPEAKER_01: Oh, man, what a great question.
38:17
SPEAKER_01: Well,
38:17
SPEAKER_01: I want to be clear that in the world of early stage technology,
38:24
SPEAKER_01: obviously,
38:25
SPEAKER_01: the U.S.
38:25
SPEAKER_01: is...
38:26
SPEAKER_01: That's one of the things in the U.S.
38:27
SPEAKER_01: is very,
38:27
SPEAKER_01: very well.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: It's Mecca.
38:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a Mecca.
38:30
SPEAKER_01: And the reality is...
38:34
SPEAKER_01: France is not like that.
38:36
SPEAKER_01: Even close.
38:37
SPEAKER_01: And so I would say that you asked me the question.
38:40
SPEAKER_01: I'm all about people.
38:41
So that's like the only reason why,
38:43
you know,
38:45
I was like five or six years.
38:46
SPEAKER_01: I was pretty much full time as angel investing.
38:48
SPEAKER_01: I just get so much energy out of other entrepreneurs,
38:50
people who just are willing to kind of just put everything else
38:54
on the side.
38:56
Risk everything to go solve a problem in something that's
39:00
meaningful and also like
39:02
people that I have fun with so to answer your question it's
39:04
like I look at
39:05
everything that's the beauty of being able to angel invest off
39:08
your own balance
39:08
sheet you can just like invest in things that like it's just
39:13
because it's part of
39:14
your life and relationships that you build and things that you
39:16
want to see happen
39:17
in the world not because of like EBITDA margins or TAM you know
39:22
it's like so I
39:23
think I would say I've only made a couple investments in France
39:27
for that reason but
39:30
SPEAKER_01: um
39:31
SPEAKER_01: It comes down to the relationship.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: And you believe in the people.
39:35
SPEAKER_00: So you have more investment.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: I mean, in tech.
39:38
SPEAKER_00: Let's talk longer about tech.
39:39
SPEAKER_00: You have more investments in the U.S. than in France.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I only have two in France.
39:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: So I made it in the two.
39:47
SPEAKER_01: And it was very early on.
39:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm so honored, man.
39:51
so okay that's that's that's very nice and and so it's the
39:56
people that you enjoy
39:57
over here and you have your family obviously here and then you
40:01
yeah you became
40:02
french sort of right or a little bit yeah yeah in many ways i
40:06
mean i'm definitely
40:07
more french than my wife but when it comes to food and cheese
40:11
and wine and others
40:12
SPEAKER_01: like elissa man i think the reality is your point it's like
40:16
SPEAKER_01: There's just good and bad everywhere.
40:18
That's how you want to look at life and like all this stuff in
40:21
the media and it's
40:22
SPEAKER_01: everything going on right now,
40:23
SPEAKER_01: which is crazy.
40:25
SPEAKER_01: It's like most people are just people.
40:28
SPEAKER_01: And I think going to your point,
40:30
I always said this where it's like people that I meet along the
40:33
way and I become
40:34
SPEAKER_01: friends with and a lot of times very different backgrounds,
40:36
SPEAKER_01: very different for me.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: But I don't think about it that way.
40:39
SPEAKER_01: It's because like there's something that brings us together.
40:42
SPEAKER_01: There's some common thread that brings us together.
40:46
you know and and that's how that the universe brought us
40:49
together yeah you know and
40:51
true true there's there's uh some things that are above so
40:55
think think about this
40:57
think about this for a second so just to level set for everyone
41:00
out there who's
41:00
still with us we met i was doing an exploratory trip to
41:06
grenoble which uh which is
41:08
SPEAKER_01: a city down in the south southern france
41:13
SPEAKER_01: And and Rafiq walks through and helping showing me around the town.
41:20
SPEAKER_01: And he starts talking about how he built this.
41:22
He's going to build this CSP concentrated solar power machine
41:27
to melt desert sand
41:29
SPEAKER_01: to allow the sand to be made or to be used for concrete.
41:33
SPEAKER_00: Because desert sand cannot be used in.
41:36
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
41:36
SPEAKER_01: And then I got educated very quickly in the oversupply of sand.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: In many in many regions of the world.
41:43
SPEAKER_01: And so I was like, this guy is crazy and I love it.
41:47
SPEAKER_01: And I think also selfishly, we just really hit it off.
41:50
And selfishly,
41:51
it was also I had just kind of started spending some more time
41:54
over in France.
41:55
SPEAKER_01: I was like,
41:55
SPEAKER_01: this is also a great way to get more connected to the market,
41:58
SPEAKER_01: like see what startups go through in France,
42:01
SPEAKER_01: see how is it different and all these other things.
42:03
SPEAKER_01: And to be honest,
42:04
SPEAKER_01: what I've seen,
42:05
SPEAKER_01: not from Heliosans experience,
42:07
SPEAKER_01: but in general,
42:09
SPEAKER_01: has shop has made me shy away from doing anything more in France.
42:13
And let's talk about that because,
42:16
I mean,
42:16
we're here free to talk whatever we want to say.
42:21
SPEAKER_00: So you should feel free.
42:24
SPEAKER_00: And I agree with you.
42:25
SPEAKER_00: The French way of being an entrepreneur is very difficult.
42:30
SPEAKER_00: And do you know those two stories, the Minitel?
42:34
SPEAKER_00: Do you know what is the Minitel?
42:35
SPEAKER_00: And do you know what is the Concorde?
42:38
SPEAKER_01: Tell the Minitel story.
42:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:40
SPEAKER_00: So the Minitel...
42:42
SPEAKER_00: I do know.
42:42
SPEAKER_00: I do know.
42:42
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
42:43
SPEAKER_00: So for people who probably don't know in the US.
42:47
So the Minitel was invented in France by the government and the
42:51
university.
42:52
SPEAKER_00: And it was a small computer that was the premise to the Internet.
42:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:58
SPEAKER_00: But it was a centralized Internet.
43:01
SPEAKER_00: So you had one server.
43:03
which the government had,
43:04
and everybody had a screen and a keyboard in their house.
43:10
SPEAKER_00: It was previous to the Internet.
43:13
SPEAKER_00: But because in the way it was made,
43:16
it could never break out as an innovation because it didn't
43:19
have the flexibility to
43:23
SPEAKER_00: create stuff on top of it.
43:26
SPEAKER_00: So it was blocked into that stuff.
43:29
SPEAKER_00: So it never succeeded.
43:33
SPEAKER_00: And it was previous to the Internet.
43:34
SPEAKER_00: It was before Internet existed.
43:37
SPEAKER_00: So before even DARPA existed.
43:41
SPEAKER_00: So these guys were geniuses, but they couldn't make it to market.
43:47
And that's the main issue of France is we have geniuses and
43:52
then and we can't make
43:53
SPEAKER_00: it to market,
43:54
SPEAKER_00: you know,
43:55
SPEAKER_00: and the Concorde is the same as the one of the fastest.
43:59
SPEAKER_00: It was the fastest airplane.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:02
SPEAKER_00: And it never made it to market.
44:04
SPEAKER_00: They bankrupt and it stopped.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: It was New York, Paris and New York in one hour and a half.
44:12
SPEAKER_01: You could fly.
44:13
SPEAKER_01: That's crazy.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to look up.
44:16
SPEAKER_00: And then they shut it down.
44:18
So there's so many stories like this in France of successful
44:23
tech,
44:24
but unsuccessful business.
44:27
SPEAKER_00: And this sticks with us, you know?
44:30
SPEAKER_00: We know how to party.
44:31
SPEAKER_00: We know how to drink.
44:34
But how to make a proper functioning business out of tech is a
44:43
very difficult thing
44:44
SPEAKER_00: for our culture.
44:46
SPEAKER_00: And I'm still struggling to understand why.
44:49
SPEAKER_01: There is this amazing thread on X.
44:59
SPEAKER_01: Someone asked this question.
45:00
SPEAKER_01: It's like, what happened to France?
45:03
SPEAKER_01: No,
45:03
SPEAKER_01: seriously,
45:03
because and I'm so mad I don't have it because it was such an
45:08
incredible thread and
45:09
SPEAKER_01: very based in history.
45:13
And it was because France,
45:15
it was like the 60s,
45:16
70s was just had this entrepreneurial culture.
45:20
SPEAKER_01: And then.
45:22
SPEAKER_01: Over time,
45:23
especially with the more socialist leftist kind of like
45:26
political environment that
45:27
SPEAKER_01: took over.
45:29
And just like the parasitic kind of nature of the government
45:32
and all this other stuff.
45:35
SPEAKER_01: Just lost all that innovation.
45:38
SPEAKER_01: Like,
45:39
SPEAKER_01: I forgot the,
45:40
SPEAKER_01: it was such a,
45:41
SPEAKER_01: it was such a good tweet,
45:42
SPEAKER_01: but I mean,
45:43
SPEAKER_01: you have the Cap 40,
45:44
SPEAKER_01: which is like the 40 biggest companies in France and some like world,
45:47
SPEAKER_01: like world leaders in many different industries back at,
45:50
SPEAKER_01: back in the sixties and seventies.
45:52
SPEAKER_01: And that is just completely cratered.
45:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:55
SPEAKER_00: And also, let's be honest, we have a communist way of working.
46:00
SPEAKER_00: The government has to intervene in everything.
46:04
SPEAKER_00: For example, venture capital here in France.
46:06
Did you know that if you create a venture capital firm,
46:11
your biggest LP is the government?
46:14
SPEAKER_01: Regardless?
46:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:16
SPEAKER_00: If you create a venture capital, your biggest LP is the government.
46:20
SPEAKER_00: Can you imagine that?
46:21
SPEAKER_00: So, first of all, there's zero skin in the game for these guys.
46:25
SPEAKER_00: The government is their biggest investor.
46:27
SPEAKER_00: And if they fail, it's all guaranteed.
46:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they got their managers.
46:33
SPEAKER_00: This is not venture.
46:36
And the numbers,
46:36
just to go through the numbers,
46:38
in 20 years,
46:39
they've invested 46 billion.
46:43
SPEAKER_01: This is French venture capital.
46:45
SPEAKER_00: French venture capital.
46:46
SPEAKER_00: And they had exits of 3 billion.
46:49
SPEAKER_01: No.
46:50
SPEAKER_00: So it's a 63 net loss.
46:55
SPEAKER_00: What?
46:57
SPEAKER_00: 43 billion dollars in euros net loss.
47:03
SPEAKER_00: Can you imagine that?
47:06
SPEAKER_00: Can you imagine pretending to be a venture, a capital firm?
47:12
SPEAKER_00: And when you look at the numbers, you're at a huge loss.
47:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry to give you this information.
47:20
SPEAKER_01: I want to fact check that.
47:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let's fact check it.
47:28
SPEAKER_01: It opens up a whole big conversation.
47:30
SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
47:33
SPEAKER_01: I think that to your point,
47:36
SPEAKER_01: one of the challenges I've had here,
47:37
SPEAKER_01: which is this,
47:38
SPEAKER_01: like if you're going to be communist or you're going to be like,
47:41
SPEAKER_01: if you're going to govern with the iron fist,
47:45
SPEAKER_01: just like be straight about it.
47:47
SPEAKER_01: Like that's what it is, right?
47:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:49
But like here,
47:50
it's like they try to act like it's this like free market
47:54
maximum freedom.
47:56
SPEAKER_01: And it's like BS.
47:57
SPEAKER_01: It's like total.
47:59
And in part of it is is just how like this gray area of how
48:02
like the legal system
48:03
SPEAKER_01: and how contracts work and then how onerous,
48:07
SPEAKER_01: you know,
48:09
SPEAKER_01: Basically,
48:09
the enterprise takes on all of the social charges and it's just
48:14
not a very friendly
48:16
SPEAKER_01: place for small businesses to give the flexibility to hire people.
48:20
SPEAKER_01: And so many rules and regulations, it just makes it really difficult.
48:23
SPEAKER_01: But to your point.
48:24
SPEAKER_00: And it's impossible to fire someone.
48:26
SPEAKER_00: If you try to fire someone, you're in detail.
48:30
SPEAKER_00: So you're like this.
48:31
SPEAKER_00: When I'm recruiting someone, I'm like this.
48:33
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
48:34
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
48:34
SPEAKER_00: Tremble.
48:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
48:36
SPEAKER_01: so just to give people that aren't familiar,
48:38
SPEAKER_01: these are like good,
48:39
SPEAKER_01: and correct me if I'm wrong,
48:41
SPEAKER_01: good high-level stats.
48:43
SPEAKER_01: So basically,
48:45
SPEAKER_01: if you hire someone and you pay them 100,000 euros a year,
48:47
SPEAKER_01: you're essentially paying them 180,000 or 200,000 euros.
48:50
SPEAKER_01: You're almost doubling.
48:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you double what you pay to the government.
49:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
49:00
SPEAKER_01: So whatever your salary is, you almost double it.
49:02
SPEAKER_01: And that goes into like it goes to the government,
49:05
but that goes into the much more generous social system that
49:09
you have here for all
49:10
SPEAKER_01: for all citizens.
49:13
SPEAKER_01: But then you have the other things,
49:14
SPEAKER_01: which is interesting to me,
49:15
SPEAKER_01: which is I wanted to ask you about.
49:17
SPEAKER_01: And maybe it's just been this way since your whole life.
49:21
SPEAKER_01: But then there's the culture around work.
49:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:25
SPEAKER_01: And one of the things I've seen,
49:26
SPEAKER_01: which is what's going to be very interesting,
49:27
is now we're having this disruption of kind of this white
49:30
collar project manager
49:32
SPEAKER_01: pushing papers type role.
49:37
SPEAKER_01: That's all getting it's all going to get right sized.
49:41
SPEAKER_00: But just this.
49:44
SPEAKER_01: Almost like a version of works,
49:46
SPEAKER_01: not the right word,
49:47
SPEAKER_01: but it's like it just people don't seem they're just like,
49:50
SPEAKER_01: no matter what I do,
49:51
SPEAKER_01: this is going to be my path.
49:52
SPEAKER_01: So there's not much hope to really push.
49:54
So I don't know if you found is that kind of obviously when
49:57
you're in the startup
49:58
SPEAKER_01: ecosystem,
49:59
SPEAKER_01: you find very specific type of people,
50:01
SPEAKER_01: similar mindsets as yourself.
50:02
SPEAKER_01: But I'm generalizing where.
50:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just, and I get it too.
50:08
SPEAKER_01: I respect it.
50:09
Like,
50:09
there's just like,
50:10
there's a lot of vacation time that's always about work-life
50:14
balance.
50:15
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, not like sacrificing other things in your life for your work.
50:19
SPEAKER_00: So you're being nice there, right?
50:22
SPEAKER_00: I hate it.
50:22
SPEAKER_00: I hate it.
50:24
SPEAKER_00: Which part?
50:25
SPEAKER_00: I mean, every month, there's a new vacation here.
50:30
SPEAKER_00: Every month.
50:30
SPEAKER_00: So when you start working, you're in the flow.
50:34
SPEAKER_00: It's holidays.
50:36
SPEAKER_00: And then nobody answers the phone.
50:38
SPEAKER_00: Nobody answers the emails.
50:40
SPEAKER_00: And you get automatic emails.
50:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm on vacation.
50:42
SPEAKER_00: And then you start working again.
50:45
SPEAKER_00: And then a month later, it's Easter.
50:49
SPEAKER_00: Now it's going to be Easter vacation.
50:51
SPEAKER_00: And
50:52
SPEAKER_00: Nobody fucking works.
50:54
SPEAKER_00: So it's I was.
50:58
And this is like this is for the year organization,
51:01
but you have the day or people optimize.
51:06
SPEAKER_00: So I have to take a coffee break at 10.
51:09
SPEAKER_00: I arrived at the office at 930.
51:11
SPEAKER_00: I speak a little bit and then the whole day is gone.
51:15
SPEAKER_00: And then sometimes people engineer.
51:18
SPEAKER_00: How they can work the smallest amount.
51:23
SPEAKER_00: And also you have the vacation planning.
51:30
SPEAKER_00: Here you have bridges.
51:31
SPEAKER_00: You remember I sent you...
51:33
SPEAKER_00: The best.
51:33
SPEAKER_00: I still have it.
51:34
SPEAKER_01: I follow the guy.
51:35
SPEAKER_00: Bridges.
51:36
SPEAKER_00: So here you have a lot of one-day holiday vacation, which is crazy.
51:44
SPEAKER_00: And in the month of May,
51:46
SPEAKER_00: has the most of the 8th of May, the 1st of May.
51:50
SPEAKER_01: The 13th, no?
51:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I have no idea, man.
51:54
SPEAKER_00: And then when you look at the calendar, people engineer.
51:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the bridge, the pont.
51:58
SPEAKER_01: That's what we call the pont.
52:00
SPEAKER_00: So they optimize how they can stop working the most.
52:06
I mean,
52:07
if I take that day off,
52:08
then they wouldn't let me come back for just one day.
52:12
SPEAKER_00: So it's a bridge.
52:14
SPEAKER_00: So they engineer the way
52:17
SPEAKER_00: how not to work.
52:18
SPEAKER_00: And I was like this when I was younger.
52:22
SPEAKER_00: When I was in university, I was a leftist.
52:25
SPEAKER_00: I thought work is bad.
52:29
And now that I'm an entrepreneur,
52:31
I realize how this is so far away from reality.
52:37
SPEAKER_00: And you know how you get to this mindset.
52:42
SPEAKER_00: You get to this mindset if you're comfortable.
52:45
if you don't have to worry about if the because here the
52:52
government helps so much
52:55
when you're a student you have money from the government you
52:58
can get food for a
52:59
cheaper price than a regular person you have this for free they
53:04
give you a computer
53:05
SPEAKER_00: they blah blah and when you get comfortable
53:09
SPEAKER_00: You don't push yourself to do new stuff like your kids.
53:15
If you have kids and they don't struggle,
53:18
don't let your kids be too comfortable.
53:21
SPEAKER_01: Totally, man.
53:22
SPEAKER_00: If you let them be too comfortable, then they won't struggle.
53:25
SPEAKER_00: And statistically, you can fact check this as well.
53:31
SPEAKER_00: Let's compare how much the government spent
53:34
SPEAKER_00: on social stuff or on itself compared to different nations.
53:41
SPEAKER_00: So in America, it's like 30%.
53:44
SPEAKER_01: Of what, of GDP?
53:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:46
SPEAKER_01: I have no idea.
53:47
SPEAKER_01: And what?
53:50
SPEAKER_00: On the government budget, government spending.
53:53
SPEAKER_00: It's 30%.
53:54
SPEAKER_00: And then in the USSR, the USSR was 46%.
54:04
SPEAKER_00: And in France, how much is it today?
54:06
SPEAKER_00: 58%.
54:11
SPEAKER_00: It's more than...
54:12
SPEAKER_01: Well,
54:15
SPEAKER_01: listen,
54:16
SPEAKER_01: I don't follow the French economy stuff much that close,
54:21
SPEAKER_01: but it's pretty obvious that there's a big problem.
54:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:27
SPEAKER_01: It's a debt problem.
54:28
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's the same in the US.
54:29
SPEAKER_01: There's just structural problems.
54:31
SPEAKER_01: We've just been printing money, and this is the problem.
54:34
SPEAKER_01: The problem is, back to your point,
54:35
about people not even wanting to work the problem is the more
54:38
stuff that you give
54:38
people more that they want that's it that's it and like it's
54:41
the funniest thing for
54:42
me here because when i by the way we're in we're in paris
54:46
france now that's why i
54:47
say here like yeah i see what people complain about here and
54:52
i'm like what are you
54:53
talking about they have no idea dude like we have conversations
54:58
when we're here
54:59
SPEAKER_01: like
55:01
Oh,
55:02
I bought,
55:03
I got,
55:03
we didn't,
55:04
the baker wasn't open on the bakery on our streets.
55:07
We had to go to the other one,
55:09
you know,
55:10
and it just doesn't have the same,
55:12
you know,
55:12
flavor.
55:14
SPEAKER_00: It's not the same brand.
55:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's not the same brand.
55:16
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't bake it.
55:17
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
55:19
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, that's what I love about the French.
55:23
SPEAKER_00: You know, you guys are, you guys are so funny.
55:25
SPEAKER_01: You're like, you know, I tell people now that I spent enough time here,
55:31
SPEAKER_01: It's like now I know why the French are how the French are.
55:33
SPEAKER_01: Like I always tell people I use the term like shit's hot.
55:37
SPEAKER_01: It's really good.
55:38
SPEAKER_01: It's really good.
55:38
SPEAKER_01: Like the quality is incredible.
55:40
SPEAKER_01: Like people,
55:41
SPEAKER_01: mostly people like most Americans that have been to France,
55:44
SPEAKER_01: like,
55:44
SPEAKER_01: OK,
55:44
come to Paris and they see the they see the Eiffel Tower and
55:49
they do the thing.
55:50
SPEAKER_01: And the Paris is an amazing city.
55:52
SPEAKER_01: And by the way, it's a big thing to travel internationally.
55:54
SPEAKER_01: So I'm not like making light of that.
55:55
SPEAKER_01: But
55:57
like France is just like,
55:59
you have,
55:59
you have two oceans or one sea,
56:02
one ocean.
56:03
SPEAKER_01: You're like three mountain ranges, the best skiing in the world.
56:06
SPEAKER_01: You have gorges everywhere.
56:07
SPEAKER_01: Every region you go has its own micro culture of wine and based in,
56:13
SPEAKER_01: in other alcohols and food and then the cheese.
56:16
SPEAKER_01: And you're just like,
56:18
SPEAKER_01: You're just like, man.
56:20
And then you have this like social system where the government
56:23
just like has set it
56:25
SPEAKER_01: up so people can enjoy their lives.
56:27
SPEAKER_01: You know, like no one can build private property on beachfront.
56:30
SPEAKER_01: The beachfront belongs to the public.
56:32
SPEAKER_01: And like just we were in, have you been to Avoria's?
56:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, of course.
56:38
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
56:38
SPEAKER_01: So Avoria's is a, do you know the story?
56:42
SPEAKER_00: Of Avoria's?
56:43
SPEAKER_01: Of how it was built?
56:44
SPEAKER_00: I'm happy that you're teaching me something from my own culture.
56:48
SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
56:53
We were there for the first time this year with our two little
56:56
ones to go skiing there.
56:58
Avoria is about four and a half hours,
57:01
five hours on the train from Paris in the French Alps.
57:05
SPEAKER_01: It's not too far from
57:09
SPEAKER_01: The Mont Blanc and Switzerland.
57:11
SPEAKER_01: It's right on the border, actually in Mont Blanc.
57:13
But it's anyway,
57:14
so a body is is a ski resort or resort mountain mountain town.
57:21
And in the ski area is called the Port de Soleil,
57:24
which means the door of the sun.
57:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:26
SPEAKER_01: Because the whole side of the mountain gets sun basically all day.
57:30
SPEAKER_01: And it's right on the border of Switzerland.
57:33
SPEAKER_01: And the Port de Soleil connects like 12 different skiing domains.
57:36
SPEAKER_00: It's one of the largest skiing domain in the world.
57:39
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
57:40
SPEAKER_01: And so anyways, the story of Avoria is, I forgot the name, but
57:47
SPEAKER_01: It was an Olympic French skier in the 70s,
57:51
SPEAKER_01: 60s or 70s,
57:53
SPEAKER_01: connected with the owner or the founder of Pierre Vacances.
57:57
SPEAKER_01: So Pierre Vacances is almost like a Club Med style vacation in France.
58:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, vacation company.
58:06
SPEAKER_01: Made for family or family art.
58:08
And so so in the in the guy,
58:11
the skier was like,
58:12
I have a vision of creating a ski resort.
58:18
SPEAKER_01: And basically up the mountain of an area called the more more zine.
58:26
SPEAKER_01: And so it's just like north of that.
58:28
SPEAKER_01: And so it's this like ledge.
58:30
SPEAKER_01: And so they built this like purpose built resort.
58:35
SPEAKER_01: And they had a very specific way of doing all the architecture.
58:38
SPEAKER_01: So all of their, all these like really small efficiency apartments.
58:43
SPEAKER_01: Right, like ski in, ski out, made for families.
58:46
SPEAKER_01: But they're all kind of in the shape of the mountain and the trees.
58:50
SPEAKER_01: They all kind of blend into the nature.
58:56
And so anyways,
58:57
but basically part of what they said is like,
58:58
we're going to create this.
59:00
It was a big initiative for the French government at that time
59:03
to build up the
59:04
SPEAKER_01: different resort,
59:05
SPEAKER_01: the ski mountains,
59:06
SPEAKER_01: because it was for the economy at that time for the mountain towns.
59:12
SPEAKER_01: And so and so then they and part of what they also does,
59:15
SPEAKER_01: they made it walkable,
59:16
SPEAKER_01: which,
59:16
SPEAKER_01: you know.
59:17
SPEAKER_01: And so it's like the coolest thing ever.
59:19
SPEAKER_01: It's like amazing for kids because the skiing is way less.
59:22
SPEAKER_01: It's not very technical.
59:22
SPEAKER_01: It's easy skiing.
59:25
SPEAKER_01: And it's just incredible for the kids.
59:26
SPEAKER_01: And literally you get around town riding on horses and buggies.
59:31
SPEAKER_01: It's like the coolest thing for kids.
59:35
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh, man.
59:36
SPEAKER_01: But anyways, that's what he asked.
59:37
SPEAKER_01: That's the story behind it.
59:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it became huge businesses in the 70s and 80s.
59:45
SPEAKER_00: It exploded.
59:46
SPEAKER_00: And now there's less and less snow.
59:48
SPEAKER_00: So it's pretty difficult to enjoy a long-term vacation.
59:54
SPEAKER_00: But this is part of the culture.
59:56
SPEAKER_00: So now you have to go skiing.
1:00:01
SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure in the U.S. it's not like this.
1:00:03
SPEAKER_00: You don't go skiing every year.
1:00:05
SPEAKER_01: No, it depends where you live.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_01: It depends where you live.
1:00:07
SPEAKER_01: And obviously, like, you know, skiing is something you have that money.
1:00:10
SPEAKER_01: And especially in the US, it's very expensive sport.
1:00:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:00:13
SPEAKER_00: And where I go skiing is in Chamonix.
1:00:16
SPEAKER_00: So it's in the Mont Blanc.
1:00:17
SPEAKER_00: So we were close this winter because I took the kids skiing as well.
1:00:22
SPEAKER_01: Chamonix is my...
1:00:23
SPEAKER_01: It's my...
1:00:26
SPEAKER_01: It's a weird one, man.
1:00:28
SPEAKER_01: I could, in a weird way, I don't know why, but I could...
1:00:31
SPEAKER_01: The first time I was there, I was like, I could just live here.
1:00:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:00:33
And I'm not like I'm not like you where I love the mountains
1:00:37
and I love being in
1:00:38
SPEAKER_01: the mountains and I'm an active person,
1:00:40
SPEAKER_01: but I'm not going to go like.
1:00:42
SPEAKER_01: You know,
1:00:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm not going rock climbing every weekend or,
1:00:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:00:45
SPEAKER_01: ice climbing like I'll go on hikes and bike and enjoy.
1:00:49
SPEAKER_00: It's the atmosphere.
1:00:50
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
1:00:52
So everybody's handsome,
1:00:54
rich,
1:00:55
nice,
1:00:55
polite,
1:00:57
has culture and there is an atmosphere.
1:01:00
SPEAKER_00: There's a body for sure.
1:01:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:01:01
SPEAKER_00: And then and everybody also is do sport.
1:01:08
SPEAKER_00: And it's just like, it's really a strange place.
1:01:12
SPEAKER_00: And you feel comfortable when you're there.
1:01:15
SPEAKER_00: I love it as well.
1:01:16
SPEAKER_00: So I was there and I realized.
1:01:19
SPEAKER_01: You were there often, no?
1:01:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's not too close for, not too far.
1:01:22
SPEAKER_00: My last friend is a mountain guide over there.
1:01:25
SPEAKER_01: That's why, okay.
1:01:26
SPEAKER_00: So we often go there.
1:01:27
SPEAKER_00: And I told the kid how to ski this year.
1:01:31
SPEAKER_01: First time?
1:01:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, first time, both of them.
1:01:33
SPEAKER_01: How old?
1:01:35
SPEAKER_00: Six years old, the great, my girl, and four years old, the little boy.
1:01:41
SPEAKER_00: So they had their own instructor, which is a friend of mine.
1:01:45
SPEAKER_00: Cool.
1:01:46
SPEAKER_00: Faustine.
1:01:47
And now they're asking every day,
1:01:48
when are we going to see Faustine again?
1:01:52
SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
1:01:53
SPEAKER_00: So we don't realize how luxurious our life is in France.
1:01:58
SPEAKER_00: It's not.
1:01:58
SPEAKER_01: But it's like this weird one.
1:02:00
SPEAKER_01: It's like, yes, it is.
1:02:02
SPEAKER_01: It's this crazy, like luxurious.
1:02:03
But at the same time,
1:02:05
I'm generalizing,
1:02:05
of course,
1:02:06
but if I were to compare.
1:02:07
But then the French in general are very...
1:02:10
Luxurious is not the right word.
1:02:12
SPEAKER_01: It's like, actually, the French are very thrifty.
1:02:15
SPEAKER_01: They're very mindful of the environment.
1:02:17
SPEAKER_01: They're very not into spending money on stuff that doesn't matter.
1:02:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:02:23
SPEAKER_00: It's a very down...
1:02:24
SPEAKER_00: It's a different perspective.
1:02:25
SPEAKER_00: I was talking from my Arab...
1:02:29
SPEAKER_00: When I come here to France, it's luxury.
1:02:31
SPEAKER_00: When I came here when I was little, I'm sure Ravi is 13 years old.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_00: Where did you grow up again?
1:02:37
SPEAKER_00: I grew up in Algeria, North Africa.
1:02:39
And we left because all the terrorists wanted to kill my
1:02:42
parents because we drink
1:02:44
SPEAKER_00: and eat pork and we don't care.
1:02:47
SPEAKER_00: And so we had to leave urgently and came here as a little boy.
1:02:54
SPEAKER_00: I thought it was so luxurious.
1:02:56
I dreamed my whole life,
1:02:57
by the way,
1:02:57
to come to France when I was little.
1:02:59
SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
1:03:00
SPEAKER_00: My parents were like, no, we're going back to Algeria.
1:03:03
SPEAKER_00: I was so happy the war was going on so we could stay.
1:03:07
SPEAKER_00: But it's the point of view.
1:03:09
SPEAKER_00: For example, hot showers didn't exist 100 years ago.
1:03:14
SPEAKER_00: So most of your heroes,
1:03:16
SPEAKER_00: most books you read,
1:03:17
SPEAKER_00: most intellectuals,
1:03:19
SPEAKER_00: inventors,
1:03:21
SPEAKER_00: everybody you admire from over 100 years ago,
1:03:24
SPEAKER_00: they never had that feeling of,
1:03:27
SPEAKER_00: In the morning.
1:03:27
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's ironic that in the morning now I take cold shower.
1:03:30
SPEAKER_01: I end with cold showers at the end.
1:03:33
SPEAKER_00: Me too.
1:03:34
SPEAKER_00: I have a cold plunge as well.
1:03:36
SPEAKER_00: The cold plunge in the winter is so hard.
1:03:39
SPEAKER_00: You have to break the ice.
1:03:41
SPEAKER_01: No, you have to.
1:03:42
SPEAKER_01: Listen, this is the thing.
1:03:42
SPEAKER_01: In my opinion, it's like it's on the list for me.
1:03:46
SPEAKER_01: I'll get one sooner than later.
1:03:47
SPEAKER_01: But...
1:03:49
SPEAKER_01: It's on the list.
1:03:50
SPEAKER_01: It's like just you have no choice.
1:03:51
If you get if you get one for me,
1:03:53
if I get one,
1:03:54
it's like I'm in that thing every day.
1:03:56
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter.
1:03:57
SPEAKER_01: Like you just got to do it.
1:03:58
SPEAKER_00: It wakes you up.
1:03:59
SPEAKER_01: And it makes me feel amazing.
1:04:03
SPEAKER_00: Because if you can do that, you can do anything else.
1:04:06
SPEAKER_01: And no, it just like resets my my whole thing.
1:04:08
SPEAKER_00: So we should plan.
1:04:11
SPEAKER_00: So we're talking about the mountains, etc.
1:04:13
SPEAKER_00: But I should take you to Geneva.
1:04:15
SPEAKER_00: Geneva has a special place which is called Le Bain des Paquis.
1:04:20
SPEAKER_00: So it's the Pakistani bath.
1:04:23
SPEAKER_00: So it's a place on the lake of Geneva where you have a sauna.
1:04:30
SPEAKER_00: Hamann, everything.
1:04:31
SPEAKER_00: And then you go into the cold.
1:04:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love it.
1:04:33
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
1:04:33
SPEAKER_00: And then you do cold plunge.
1:04:36
SPEAKER_01: Back and forth.
1:04:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, back and forth.
1:04:38
SPEAKER_00: And you feel so amazing.
1:04:40
SPEAKER_00: And then you go, I go and do some Bitcoin trades.
1:04:42
And then I come back home because I live,
1:04:45
you know,
1:04:45
where I live is two hours from Geneva.
1:04:47
SPEAKER_00: So just take the train,
1:04:49
SPEAKER_00: do the cold plunges,
1:04:50
SPEAKER_00: have lunch,
1:04:51
SPEAKER_00: blah,
1:04:51
SPEAKER_00: blah,
1:04:51
SPEAKER_00: and then do some trades and take the train back home.
1:04:55
SPEAKER_00: And this is the way I saved the company many times.
1:05:00
SPEAKER_01: Why did you have to go there to do Bitcoin trades?
1:05:04
SPEAKER_00: To work out the tax.
1:05:08
SPEAKER_01: Oh, really?
1:05:09
SPEAKER_01: You can't just pay tax here?
1:05:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it's different.
1:05:13
SPEAKER_00: If you do it with a company that lends the money to your company.
1:05:19
SPEAKER_01: Do what with the company?
1:05:20
So there's a Swiss company that lends the money to you and you
1:05:27
lend that money to
1:05:28
SPEAKER_00: the Swiss company.
1:05:30
SPEAKER_00: Therefore, once everybody's paid back, you don't have to pay taxes.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_01: I don't get it.
1:05:37
SPEAKER_01: I don't get it.
1:05:38
SPEAKER_01: So you sell your Bitcoin.
1:05:39
SPEAKER_01: You sell Bitcoin for $100.
1:05:40
SPEAKER_00: I don't sell Bitcoin.
1:05:41
SPEAKER_00: I have to pay taxes if I do that.
1:05:44
SPEAKER_00: I lend.
1:05:45
SPEAKER_01: Your Bitcoin.
1:05:45
SPEAKER_00: To a Swiss company, Swiss bank.
1:05:48
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:05:49
SPEAKER_00: And then this Swiss bank lands the money to my company.
1:05:54
SPEAKER_00: And then with this.
1:05:55
SPEAKER_01: How do you get paid back?
1:05:56
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I don't get paid back.
1:05:58
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the company.
1:05:59
SPEAKER_00: Oh.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I see what you're saying.
1:06:02
SPEAKER_01: So you're lending it in.
1:06:04
SPEAKER_00: If I sell my Bitcoin.
1:06:05
SPEAKER_01: I understand.
1:06:06
SPEAKER_00: And then put it into the company, I have to pay the flat tax.
1:06:09
SPEAKER_01: I understand.
1:06:10
SPEAKER_00: I can't just put money into the company.
1:06:12
So it's just the equivalent of,
1:06:14
it's like what it is,
1:06:15
is the equivalent of spending.
1:06:17
SPEAKER_01: It's just like equivalent of having expenses.
1:06:20
SPEAKER_01: And so it's not acceptable.
1:06:21
SPEAKER_01: It's not taxable.
1:06:21
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I got it.
1:06:24
SPEAKER_00: And this is why I saved the company many times.
1:06:28
And also,
1:06:31
I know Geneva very well because some of my wife's family is
1:06:34
over there.
1:06:35
SPEAKER_00: And when I was in the crypto world, this is where I bloomed.
1:06:41
SPEAKER_00: Because in France... Did you like Geneva?
1:06:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love it.
1:06:44
SPEAKER_00: If I could, I would live in Switzerland.
1:06:47
SPEAKER_00: It's the best place to live.
1:06:50
SPEAKER_00: It's Switzerland.
1:06:51
SPEAKER_01: It's a little like Truman Show-y for me.
1:06:53
SPEAKER_01: No?
1:06:54
SPEAKER_01: You ever see that movie?
1:06:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:06:56
SPEAKER_00: Depends where you go and depends who you talk to.
1:06:59
SPEAKER_00: But it's true.
1:07:00
SPEAKER_00: It looks like Truman Show.
1:07:02
SPEAKER_01: Wait, I have a question for you.
1:07:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I have other questions.
1:07:05
SPEAKER_00: Me too.
1:07:05
SPEAKER_00: So, okay.
1:07:06
SPEAKER_00: You start.
1:07:12
SPEAKER_01: You do this often, which is pretty interesting to me.
1:07:15
SPEAKER_01: So I just said Truman Show.
1:07:18
SPEAKER_01: It's funny.
1:07:18
SPEAKER_01: When I speak to you, I feel like I'm speaking culturally.
1:07:24
SPEAKER_01: in a way, to another American, which is interesting.
1:07:28
SPEAKER_01: I feel like rarely I mention something cultural like that,
1:07:31
SPEAKER_01: whether it's music,
1:07:32
SPEAKER_01: movie,
1:07:32
SPEAKER_01: whatever,
1:07:33
SPEAKER_01: and you don't know what it is.
1:07:34
SPEAKER_01: So it's, like, interesting.
1:07:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:07:38
SPEAKER_01: Were your parents really into American, like,
1:07:42
SPEAKER_01: culture?
1:07:43
SPEAKER_01: Is it related to entertainment?
1:07:45
SPEAKER_00: My parents were into the British culture.
1:07:48
SPEAKER_00: My mom's best friend lives in London.
1:07:52
I used to go to London,
1:07:53
so I did the Anglo-Saxon,
1:07:57
which is close to America as well.
1:08:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but we were not into one system or international.
1:08:06
SPEAKER_00: Since I was born, we had people from all over the world coming and having
1:08:11
SPEAKER_00: dinners with my parents.
1:08:12
SPEAKER_00: And so we spoke several languages at home.
1:08:16
SPEAKER_00: So I had that open minded.
1:08:18
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
1:08:20
But let's go back to Switzerland,
1:08:21
because I want to know your opinion on that.
1:08:24
SPEAKER_00: I mean, what do you think of that?
1:08:27
SPEAKER_00: So
1:08:31
SPEAKER_00: People think it's Elon Musk, the richest guy in the world.
1:08:34
SPEAKER_00: So Putin is way more richer than Elon Musk, first of all.
1:08:39
SPEAKER_00: So who is the richest person in the world, in your opinion?
1:08:45
I think when people talk about that,
1:08:47
the problem is they equate rich with money.
1:08:53
SPEAKER_01: And once you get to a certain amount of money, like,
1:09:00
the way I would say that when I would say rich,
1:09:02
rich,
1:09:03
just how people,
1:09:04
it's actually power.
1:09:06
SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense to you?
1:09:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:09:08
SPEAKER_01: So if you were to ask me who's the richest person in the world, um,
1:09:15
SPEAKER_01: it's,
1:09:16
SPEAKER_01: it's who has the power because at some point,
1:09:20
SPEAKER_01: once,
1:09:20
SPEAKER_01: like I said,
1:09:21
SPEAKER_01: once you have the,
1:09:24
SPEAKER_01: a certain level of financial resources,
1:09:26
SPEAKER_01: I don't think it actually,
1:09:27
SPEAKER_01: it doesn't matter.
1:09:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:09:28
SPEAKER_01: I think it like, you kind of like level out.
1:09:30
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:09:33
SPEAKER_01: And so, I don't know.
1:09:34
SPEAKER_01: I think it's some,
1:09:35
SPEAKER_01: it's,
1:09:35
SPEAKER_01: it's,
1:09:36
SPEAKER_01: it's,
1:09:36
SPEAKER_01: it's people that are part of things that we don't even know about.
1:09:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:09:41
SPEAKER_00: You think so?
1:09:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:09:41
SPEAKER_01: I think it's in this way where it's like some sort of,
1:09:45
SPEAKER_01: of.
1:09:46
SPEAKER_01: Like conspiracy,
1:09:47
SPEAKER_01: not even conspiracy theory or whatever,
1:09:49
SPEAKER_01: but it's like,
1:09:50
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:09:51
SPEAKER_01: maybe someone involved with like the Catholic Church.
1:09:54
SPEAKER_00: I think so.
1:09:56
SPEAKER_00: So like, I don't know.
1:09:57
SPEAKER_00: I agree with you.
1:09:57
SPEAKER_00: I agree with you that the puppets are not the one in power.
1:10:02
SPEAKER_00: There is always somebody who's manipulating puppets to politics.
1:10:06
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
1:10:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:10:08
Well,
1:10:08
that's what that's what that's why Donald Trump's such a thing
1:10:10
by the people.
1:10:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:10:12
not to get political but that is the reality it's that's why
1:10:14
he's an enigma because
1:10:15
people are like who controls you and he's just kind of this off
1:10:20
the cuff like guy
1:10:23
and so you're just like okay well like that's why people are
1:10:28
intrigued because
1:10:29
they're like hey like i don't nothing of this stuff was working
1:10:32
for a long time for
1:10:33
SPEAKER_01: me and like there's some structural things that are broken and like
1:10:37
SPEAKER_01: This guy is just fucking it's a comedy show with that guy, not comedy.
1:10:41
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to make jokes.
1:10:42
SPEAKER_00: He's funny.
1:10:43
SPEAKER_00: He's funny.
1:10:44
SPEAKER_00: He's funny.
1:10:46
SPEAKER_00: He's very funny.
1:10:48
SPEAKER_01: I heard this great line where there's like the president.
1:10:52
SPEAKER_00: Bro, think about this.
1:10:53
SPEAKER_01: Think about if you were not a comedian.
1:10:55
SPEAKER_01: That's what I'm saying.
1:10:55
SPEAKER_01: Think, dude, Rafiq, think about this.
1:10:58
SPEAKER_01: Think about if you are not you never been to Earth before.
1:11:01
SPEAKER_01: You're like an alien.
1:11:03
SPEAKER_01: And.
1:11:04
SPEAKER_01: I said,
1:11:04
and then you came down to Earth for the first time and you came
1:11:06
over and I sat you
1:11:07
down on the TV and I put a I put a Donald Trump speech on and
1:11:13
Donald Trump at his
1:11:14
SPEAKER_01: finest.
1:11:14
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, that's our president.
1:11:15
SPEAKER_01: He'd be like, that's that's like it's not true.
1:11:19
SPEAKER_00: It's unbelievable.
1:11:22
SPEAKER_00: Unbelievable.
1:11:24
SPEAKER_01: This this comes up to the simulation theory.
1:11:27
SPEAKER_01: Do you have thoughts about simulation?
1:11:28
SPEAKER_01: Are we living in a simulation theory?
1:11:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:11:30
SPEAKER_00: So I would love to go back to this.
1:11:32
SPEAKER_00: But first, first, let's tackle the Switzerland thing.
1:11:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're really into the Switzerland thing.
1:11:38
SPEAKER_00: Very interesting data about that.
1:11:40
So the richest person in the world is Ben Salman,
1:11:47
the king of Saudi Arabia.
1:11:48
SPEAKER_00: He's got the biggest bank account ever.
1:11:51
SPEAKER_00: OK, so the difference between a million
1:11:55
SPEAKER_00: and a billion and a trillion.
1:11:58
SPEAKER_00: So one million seconds is 11 minutes, 11 hours.
1:12:07
SPEAKER_01: I'm fact checking him on this.
1:12:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, go ahead.
1:12:09
SPEAKER_00: One million seconds is 11 hours.
1:12:10
SPEAKER_00: One billion seconds is 36 years.
1:12:23
SPEAKER_00: or 30 something years.
1:12:25
So can you imagine 11 hours and 36 years and a trillion is
1:12:31
something like 3000 years.
1:12:36
OK,
1:12:37
so the difference between a million,
1:12:39
a billion and a trillion is huge.
1:12:43
SPEAKER_00: So 11 million seconds is 11 hours.
1:12:48
SPEAKER_01: 11 million.
1:12:48
SPEAKER_01: How many hours?
1:12:49
SPEAKER_01: 11 million seconds.
1:12:51
SPEAKER_00: One million.
1:12:52
SPEAKER_00: One million seconds.
1:12:53
SPEAKER_00: It's 11 hours.
1:12:54
SPEAKER_01: How many hours is 1 million seconds and 1 billion seconds?
1:12:59
SPEAKER_01: That's what we're going at.
1:13:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're doing like just the Jorgen podcast.
1:13:06
SPEAKER_00: We need somebody to fact check everything.
1:13:10
SPEAKER_00: So tell us.
1:13:12
SPEAKER_01: 1 million seconds is 277 hours.
1:13:13
SPEAKER_01: It's 11 days.
1:13:14
SPEAKER_01: 11 days.
1:13:14
SPEAKER_01: 11 days.
1:13:20
SPEAKER_00: It's 31 years.
1:13:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:13:23
SPEAKER_00: So 11 days, 31 years.
1:13:27
SPEAKER_00: So this is the difference between a million and a billion.
1:13:30
SPEAKER_00: And a trillion is even... You didn't even know, yeah.
1:13:33
SPEAKER_00: It's 3,000 something.
1:13:34
SPEAKER_00: It's 3,000 years.
1:13:36
So the difference between a billionaire and Ben Salman,
1:13:44
the Saudi prince,
1:13:46
is that much.
1:13:48
SPEAKER_00: That's the difference.
1:13:49
SPEAKER_00: It's huge.
1:13:50
SPEAKER_01: 31,000 years.
1:13:52
SPEAKER_00: Can you imagine?
1:13:55
SPEAKER_01: 1 million seconds is 12 days.
1:13:58
SPEAKER_01: 1 billion seconds, 32 years.
1:13:59
SPEAKER_01: 1 trillion seconds, 31,000 years.
1:14:02
SPEAKER_00: So can you see the huge gap?
1:14:04
SPEAKER_00: And so several things here you have to notice.
1:14:09
So if you put the revenue of the Aramco,
1:14:13
which is the largest oil company.
1:14:15
SPEAKER_01: They're public, right?
1:14:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're public.
1:14:17
SPEAKER_00: Yes, they're public.
1:14:18
SPEAKER_00: You can buy shares.
1:14:19
So you have their revenue and you compare it to the revenue
1:14:24
cumulative of Apple,
1:14:26
SPEAKER_00: Microsoft,
1:14:27
SPEAKER_00: whatever,
1:14:28
you're going to get like three quarter or less is the amount of
1:14:37
revenue from large
1:14:38
SPEAKER_00: American companies compared to the revenue of the RMCo company.
1:14:45
SPEAKER_01: Reported revenue?
1:14:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, reported revenue.
1:14:48
SPEAKER_01: I see.
1:14:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, go ahead.
1:14:51
SPEAKER_00: I'm happy that you fact check it.
1:14:52
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
1:14:53
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't 11 hours.
1:14:54
SPEAKER_00: No, I'm learning.
1:14:55
SPEAKER_00: And thanks for.
1:14:58
SPEAKER_01: 450 billion per year.
1:15:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:15:01
SPEAKER_00: So if you put all the revenues of large American companies,
1:15:05
SPEAKER_00: they're not even a three quarter of that.
1:15:09
SPEAKER_00: No.
1:15:11
SPEAKER_01: No.
1:15:11
SPEAKER_01: Google's like that.
1:15:12
SPEAKER_01: No.
1:15:12
SPEAKER_01: It's like 300 billion a year.
1:15:14
SPEAKER_01: No.
1:15:15
SPEAKER_01: 250 billion a year.
1:15:19
SPEAKER_00: So check the revenue of Google, the yearly revenue of Google or Apple.
1:15:30
SPEAKER_00: Let's see the difference.
1:15:31
SPEAKER_01: All right.
1:15:32
SPEAKER_01: Let's see.
1:15:33
SPEAKER_00: $400 billion.
1:15:34
SPEAKER_01: $400 billion?
1:15:35
SPEAKER_01: In 2025.
1:15:35
SPEAKER_01: $350 billion in 2024.
1:15:36
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:15:37
SPEAKER_01: So they're catching up.
1:15:39
Yeah.
1:15:39
SPEAKER_00: So no, no.
1:15:40
SPEAKER_00: So it means it's the equivalent.
1:15:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:15:44
SPEAKER_00: So I thought it was way less.
1:15:47
SPEAKER_01: That's why it says.
1:15:49
it's revenue it's revenue yeah but going back to the question
1:15:54
of who's the richest
1:15:54
person in the world it's not like who cares about that number
1:15:58
that number at some
1:15:58
point doesn't matter you know what matters you what matters the
1:16:02
the entire economy
1:16:03
stops that guy shuts off is uh you know why it matters because
1:16:07
where does his where
1:16:09
do those people's um stock and put their money where is where's
1:16:16
the money do you
1:16:16
SPEAKER_00: think his bank account is in saudi arabia
1:16:19
SPEAKER_01: Switzerland, baby.
1:16:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:16:21
SPEAKER_01: All right.
1:16:21
SPEAKER_01: So good.
1:16:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:16:22
SPEAKER_01: We're back to Switzerland.
1:16:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:16:23
SPEAKER_01: He won't let Switzerland.
1:16:24
SPEAKER_01: He won't.
1:16:24
SPEAKER_01: You won't stop with Switzerland.
1:16:26
SPEAKER_01: Get to the punchline.
1:16:26
SPEAKER_01: What's the question?
1:16:27
SPEAKER_00: Switzerland gets all the rich people put their bank account over there.
1:16:32
SPEAKER_00: So the country hasn't been in war for 500 years.
1:16:37
SPEAKER_00: And everybody's happy.
1:16:38
SPEAKER_00: Everybody lives well because they are the bankers of the world.
1:16:43
SPEAKER_01: And is that a place you want to live?
1:16:45
SPEAKER_00: And.
1:16:46
SPEAKER_01: This doesn't seem that interesting of a place to live.
1:16:48
SPEAKER_00: So if you go there, people are so easygoing.
1:16:51
SPEAKER_00: They're so nice.
1:16:53
SPEAKER_00: And the kids, they have the best education.
1:16:56
SPEAKER_01: And they all speak like five languages.
1:16:58
SPEAKER_00: They go to ski resorts in the winter.
1:17:01
SPEAKER_01: They do this and that.
1:17:02
SPEAKER_00: It's the best education and the best manufacturing.
1:17:06
SPEAKER_00: They have a decentralized manufacturing for watches, for example.
1:17:12
SPEAKER_00: You have the largest watch brand in the world, Rolex.
1:17:16
SPEAKER_00: And they have other many small companies that make watches.
1:17:22
SPEAKER_01: So the whole ecosystem.
1:17:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:17:25
SPEAKER_00: So if we live in a simulation, Switzerland is the bank of the world.
1:17:33
SPEAKER_00: And did you see this ayahuasca stuff?
1:17:37
A guy that puts a laser onto a wall and he gives people
1:17:41
ayahuasca and then they
1:17:44
SPEAKER_00: look at the laser.
1:17:46
SPEAKER_00: And they see through the world and they see a code like in the matrix.
1:17:52
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:17:53
SPEAKER_00: And this has been repeated by many other people.
1:17:57
SPEAKER_00: And in the opinion of that guy,
1:17:59
SPEAKER_00: it proves that we live in the simulation and you have,
1:18:04
SPEAKER_00: you have to check this.
1:18:05
And many scientists are questioning whether they should do a
1:18:11
real scientific experiment.
1:18:14
to measure what's happening in the brain or what's going on to
1:18:16
try to understand that.
1:18:19
SPEAKER_00: Because the issue is that it's repeatable.
1:18:21
SPEAKER_00: If other people do it on the other side of the planet with somebody else,
1:18:27
SPEAKER_00: everybody gets the same result.
1:18:29
SPEAKER_00: They look at the laser.
1:18:31
So you have to put the laser through a wall and you look at the
1:18:35
laser and you can
1:18:36
SPEAKER_00: see through the wall and you see a code.
1:18:41
SPEAKER_00: which is amazing.
1:18:42
SPEAKER_00: And everybody describing that code gets something similar,
1:18:47
SPEAKER_00: whether they're Japanese,
1:18:49
SPEAKER_00: Indian,
1:18:51
SPEAKER_00: South African,
1:18:52
SPEAKER_00: whatever.
1:18:53
SPEAKER_00: And this could be a proof that we live in the simulation.
1:18:58
SPEAKER_01: Where did that come from?
1:18:59
SPEAKER_01: I totally am lost.
1:19:01
SPEAKER_00: It's a guy that invented that experiment.
1:19:04
SPEAKER_01: But how is it related to the simulation theory specifically?
1:19:09
SPEAKER_00: because if you have a repeatable code that you can see,
1:19:17
SPEAKER_00: it means that probably that code runs through the world.
1:19:22
SPEAKER_00: So that's the question.
1:19:24
SPEAKER_00: And when you look at any ancient text,
1:19:28
SPEAKER_00: whether Buddhists,
1:19:30
SPEAKER_00: Jewish texts,
1:19:32
SPEAKER_00: Muslim texts,
1:19:33
SPEAKER_00: even Christians,
1:19:34
SPEAKER_00: they tell you
1:19:37
SPEAKER_00: that God is a coder, that God has registers of what you do.
1:19:44
SPEAKER_00: Everything is registered.
1:19:46
SPEAKER_00: And that also there is the physics of the world.
1:19:52
SPEAKER_00: It's all tuned.
1:19:54
SPEAKER_00: So there is a code that drives the physics.
1:20:00
SPEAKER_00: And so
1:20:03
SPEAKER_00: The thing is,
1:20:04
SPEAKER_00: if you're in a simulation,
1:20:05
how do you know if that simulation is not a simulation of
1:20:09
another simulation?
1:20:10
SPEAKER_00: That's the real question.
1:20:14
SPEAKER_00: Can you go deeper into simulations?
1:20:20
SPEAKER_01: I don't know the answer to that.
1:20:22
SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
1:20:22
SPEAKER_00: Do you think we live in a simulation?
1:20:24
SPEAKER_00: I have no idea.
1:20:27
SPEAKER_01: I kind of feel like we do.
1:20:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:20:30
SPEAKER_01: I think...
1:20:35
like and what's the point of this simulation i think i think
1:20:41
it's it's not
1:20:41
necessarily i wouldn't say video game for me i think it's this
1:20:44
i think it's more of
1:20:52
SPEAKER_01: um just the whole idea of kind of
1:21:01
The system kind of going swinging from one pendulum to the
1:21:06
other pendulum,
1:21:06
SPEAKER_01: which is just like being biological beings,
1:21:10
SPEAKER_01: right?
1:21:11
Where it's like when something gets out of whack,
1:21:13
it kind of self-corrects.
1:21:15
And so because we are biological beings and we're balanced,
1:21:20
yeah,
1:21:20
it's nature.
1:21:23
it's nature so i think at the end of the day nature decides
1:21:29
ultimately and so it
1:21:35
feels that like for me nature just has the plan in a way yeah
1:21:43
that makes sense or
1:21:44
no yeah i've never talked actually about that yeah but specific
1:21:47
you know i'm i'm
1:21:50
SPEAKER_00: very spiritual so
1:21:52
SPEAKER_00: I understand that.
1:21:55
SPEAKER_00: And also what I agree with you,
1:21:57
SPEAKER_00: because most of the time when something happened in the company,
1:22:01
SPEAKER_00: when you have an industrial startup like I'm trying to build,
1:22:06
SPEAKER_00: you're always walking on the edge.
1:22:09
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
1:22:10
SPEAKER_00: And the company could die anytime.
1:22:11
I mean,
1:22:12
even today I had a horrible news and the company could die
1:22:15
anytime.
1:22:15
SPEAKER_00: But what I realized is the more I get scared,
1:22:21
SPEAKER_00: the closer to the edge I get,
1:22:23
SPEAKER_00: the more I trust nature or God,
1:22:26
SPEAKER_00: the more I trust the process,
1:22:27
SPEAKER_00: the more I trust that this is just something that I have to go through.
1:22:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
1:22:32
SPEAKER_00: The more the solution shows itself.
1:22:35
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
1:22:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:22:37
SPEAKER_01: I think there's,
1:22:37
SPEAKER_01: I had this experience in Detroit,
1:22:41
SPEAKER_01: which was when you think back on it,
1:22:43
SPEAKER_01: it's going to get to your point of starting something and going in.
1:22:47
SPEAKER_01: I really think it's when you have a true mission, it's not,
1:22:52
SPEAKER_01: Because it's true entrepreneurship.
1:22:54
SPEAKER_01: It's true creation.
1:22:55
SPEAKER_01: When you go on that and you hear like obviously Joseph Campbell's like,
1:22:59
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:23:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:23:01
SPEAKER_01: the hero's journey and the whole thing,
1:23:03
SPEAKER_01: man with a thousand faces.
1:23:05
SPEAKER_01: But like we all are on our own.
1:23:07
SPEAKER_01: We're all on our own journey as our own hero in our own story.
1:23:12
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:23:14
SPEAKER_01: But I just lost my train of thought.
1:23:17
SPEAKER_00: Oh,
1:23:18
SPEAKER_00: you were talking about how you will live in a simulation,
1:23:21
SPEAKER_00: how struggling in a company and trusting the process.
1:23:24
SPEAKER_01: Ah, yes.
1:23:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sorry.
1:23:26
SPEAKER_01: Trusting the process.
1:23:26
And so I think when you're doing something for a deeper meaning
1:23:30
and then you got to
1:23:32
SPEAKER_01: put it all out on the line.
1:23:33
SPEAKER_01: And yes, some things work out, some things don't.
1:23:35
But ultimately,
1:23:37
it's kind of what they say is like the world will give you what
1:23:39
you need.
1:23:40
If you just put positive energy out there and like you can go
1:23:42
do whatever it is that you want.
1:23:44
SPEAKER_01: You can go find whoever it is that you want.
1:23:46
SPEAKER_01: You started this conversation, asked me about podcasts.
1:23:48
I literally started beyond my own kind of some close network
1:23:52
when I started
1:23:52
SPEAKER_01: learning about more and more of this stuff.
1:23:53
SPEAKER_01: I was like, reach out to people.
1:23:56
SPEAKER_01: And like people are generally cool.
1:23:58
SPEAKER_01: They'll talk, right?
1:23:59
SPEAKER_01: Some people are busy.
1:24:00
SPEAKER_01: It's cool.
1:24:01
SPEAKER_01: I'll check back in three months, three months.
1:24:03
And it's like anyone that you check in with regularly because
1:24:07
you have a genuine
1:24:08
SPEAKER_01: interest in connecting with them,
1:24:09
SPEAKER_01: they'll give you time.
1:24:10
Because we don't spend enough time hanging with people and
1:24:14
meeting new people that
1:24:16
SPEAKER_01: for some reason you have a similar interest or something.
1:24:19
SPEAKER_01: You're a kindred spirit.
1:24:20
SPEAKER_00: Steve Jobs said that.
1:24:22
SPEAKER_00: He said,
1:24:25
SPEAKER_00: when I needed help,
1:24:27
I just took the phone and he called the director of HP when he
1:24:33
was little.
1:24:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:24:38
SPEAKER_00: Do you have spare parts to make an analogical convertible?
1:24:45
SPEAKER_00: Because you have to go from analog to digital.
1:24:48
SPEAKER_00: In the old days, now everything is digital.
1:24:51
SPEAKER_00: He was wanting to build a digital analog converter.
1:24:56
SPEAKER_00: So he called the boss of HP.
1:24:59
SPEAKER_00: Do you have spare parts, please?
1:25:01
SPEAKER_00: And the guy was amazed that a kid...
1:25:04
SPEAKER_00: He said, okay, come on.
1:25:05
SPEAKER_00: He gave him spare parts and a job for summer and he was making computers.
1:25:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
1:25:11
SPEAKER_00: And then,
1:25:12
SPEAKER_00: then he created that whole,
1:25:13
SPEAKER_00: but he said,
1:25:14
SPEAKER_00: generally people,
1:25:16
if you ask for help and pick up the phone and people generally
1:25:20
would help and give
1:25:21
SPEAKER_01: you time.
1:25:22
SPEAKER_01: If you, if you're being sincere about something, for sure.
1:25:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
1:25:26
SPEAKER_00: It's true.
1:25:27
SPEAKER_00: And, um,
1:25:30
SPEAKER_00: So reaching out to people is easy,
1:25:36
but it's not easy to maintain the same the same focus when you
1:25:48
have struggle.
1:25:49
SPEAKER_00: So it goes back to our conversation previously.
1:25:53
SPEAKER_00: Why do we have struggles?
1:25:54
SPEAKER_00: Why do we have problems is to make you survive.
1:25:58
SPEAKER_00: And this is
1:25:59
SPEAKER_00: This is also the rule of the video game,
1:26:01
SPEAKER_00: because I think life is a video game,
1:26:04
SPEAKER_00: but you have just one life.
1:26:06
SPEAKER_00: And the purpose is to go through struggle and still be good.
1:26:13
SPEAKER_00: Because when you struggle,
1:26:15
SPEAKER_00: when you have problems,
1:26:16
SPEAKER_00: it's easy to turn to,
1:26:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:26:20
SPEAKER_00: drinking,
1:26:20
SPEAKER_00: whatever,
1:26:21
SPEAKER_00: or doing or stealing.
1:26:22
SPEAKER_00: You're in trouble.
1:26:24
SPEAKER_00: You don't have money.
1:26:25
SPEAKER_00: So you go steal or you get angry or
1:26:29
And I think the point of the whole game,
1:26:31
the whole simulation,
1:26:33
is to test your soul.
1:26:38
SPEAKER_00: Can you go through struggle and still be a good person?
1:26:44
SPEAKER_00: And it's very hard.
1:26:47
SPEAKER_00: It's very hard to keep your ethics when you're in deep shit.
1:26:53
SPEAKER_00: It's very hard.
1:26:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you bring up an interesting point, which is ethics.
1:26:58
And also,
1:26:59
I think I would use,
1:27:00
not even necessarily the word ethics,
1:27:01
but compromise.
1:27:02
SPEAKER_01: I think that's like a lot of times.
1:27:04
SPEAKER_01: So when you're under stress, this kind of always what people say.
1:27:07
SPEAKER_01: So...
1:27:12
SPEAKER_01: When people talk about money in life, right?
1:27:15
SPEAKER_01: Just in general.
1:27:16
SPEAKER_01: And like, to me, I've always said, it's like, it's just freedom.
1:27:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:27:19
Like other than your,
1:27:21
once you get past basic necessities,
1:27:22
it's just freedom.
1:27:23
SPEAKER_01: And it is freedom.
1:27:24
What it does is it's freedom of thought,
1:27:26
which allows you to generally think longer term.
1:27:30
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:27:30
SPEAKER_01: That's like, to me.
1:27:33
SPEAKER_01: And so.
1:27:33
SPEAKER_00: You could pick up your head and see.
1:27:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:27:35
SPEAKER_01: Because you're not,
1:27:36
because you're not worried about how you're paying the rent
1:27:39
next month or your
1:27:40
SPEAKER_01: bills or whatever it is.
1:27:43
And so why we're getting into short term,
1:27:47
now I'm fading short term,
1:27:49
long term thinking.
1:27:50
Yeah,
1:27:50
because the simulation and I had my opinion,
1:27:54
what's the rules of the simulation?
1:27:57
SPEAKER_00: And my opinion is, can you keep your ethics?
1:27:59
SPEAKER_00: And you were talking about ethics, but to compromise.
1:28:03
compromise and when you're under stress in the reality of it is
1:28:08
like if you're the
1:28:10
reality of his money today is is our equivalent of survival
1:28:13
because we're not
1:28:14
living in like places where our life is threatened on a daily
1:28:17
basis right like so
1:28:18
like money is just survival and that's survival personal life
1:28:22
is survival your
1:28:23
SPEAKER_01: company or whatever it is and so when when you're
1:28:27
SPEAKER_01: when your back is up against the wall, it's easy to compromise.
1:28:29
Or if you set your incentive structure up in a way where the
1:28:35
incentive structure
1:28:37
SPEAKER_01: compromises the mission or whatever it is,
1:28:39
SPEAKER_01: like you have a structural problem.
1:28:42
And actually I have this thing,
1:28:44
which is kind of an aspect of this going direct thing that,
1:28:50
SPEAKER_01: I truly believe,
1:28:51
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:28:51
SPEAKER_01: when people talk about,
1:28:52
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:28:53
SPEAKER_01: meaning in their work and,
1:28:55
SPEAKER_01: and especially people that are starting things or found,
1:28:57
SPEAKER_01: founding things,
1:28:57
SPEAKER_01: even if you're going after a,
1:28:59
SPEAKER_01: to really solve a specific problem in,
1:29:01
SPEAKER_01: in,
1:29:02
SPEAKER_01: in society that like,
1:29:04
SPEAKER_01: if you set up the wrong incentive structure for the organization,
1:29:07
SPEAKER_01: like where you're,
1:29:09
SPEAKER_01: the outcomes of the way you get,
1:29:10
your outcomes are not aligned with the values or the mission of
1:29:12
what you're like
1:29:13
SPEAKER_01: ultimately setting out to do.
1:29:15
SPEAKER_01: Like,
1:29:18
that's what creates this like like the emptiness and so i think
1:29:21
ultimately what
1:29:21
everyone wants is like the ability to like work at a place or
1:29:25
um have a career
1:29:27
where their incentive structure and outcomes are aligned with
1:29:31
like something that
1:29:32
that's meaning meaningful to them and i think that's actually
1:29:35
what everyone's
1:29:35
actually looking for like deep deep down to be aligned yeah
1:29:40
just having a deep
1:29:41
SPEAKER_01: alignment with with an alignment with what you're doing yeah
1:29:45
SPEAKER_00: So the incentive in France for work is most of the time power.
1:29:55
SPEAKER_00: So it's either it's either.
1:29:57
SPEAKER_00: So people have two incentives, vacation.
1:30:02
SPEAKER_00: So they mistake vacation for freedom.
1:30:06
And the other incentive is power,
1:30:09
meaning are you a manager or are you not?
1:30:13
SPEAKER_00: So in the US,
1:30:14
SPEAKER_00: when I worked with American people,
1:30:17
SPEAKER_00: they all have the possibility that one day they might be a manager.
1:30:24
SPEAKER_00: In France,
1:30:25
SPEAKER_00: you have this thing where if you're a manager,
1:30:28
SPEAKER_00: no one is going to take your seat because you can't go further up.
1:30:33
SPEAKER_00: So you're guarding your seat.
1:30:35
SPEAKER_00: So the incentive is power over others.
1:30:39
SPEAKER_00: And vacation.
1:30:42
SPEAKER_01: It's truly the culture.
1:30:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
1:30:46
SPEAKER_01: You guys got a specific way of doing things here.
1:30:48
SPEAKER_01: For sure.
1:30:50
SPEAKER_01: It's true.
1:30:52
SPEAKER_01: It's a very specific way.
1:30:54
SPEAKER_01: And obviously, I respect it.
1:30:57
SPEAKER_01: Listen, having my kids, raising my kids here are...
1:31:07
SPEAKER_01: it's, it's been such a pleasure.
1:31:11
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
1:31:12
SPEAKER_01: Oh,
1:31:12
SPEAKER_01: it's the thing that for me,
1:31:14
SPEAKER_01: um,
1:31:17
brings me the most fulfillment and like where I can like
1:31:20
overlook other things that
1:31:21
SPEAKER_01: are not maybe optimal or the same in America,
1:31:25
SPEAKER_01: but just,
1:31:26
it has been a incredible place thus far between like how the
1:31:31
system works for
1:31:33
SPEAKER_01: schools,
1:31:34
SPEAKER_01: for the crash,
1:31:34
SPEAKER_01: which is the daycare.
1:31:35
SPEAKER_01: Um,
1:31:38
SPEAKER_00: And all what the kids can do.
1:31:40
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of activities and stuff.
1:31:43
SPEAKER_01: You guys,
1:31:44
SPEAKER_01: the French,
1:31:44
SPEAKER_01: listen,
1:31:46
the Americans are like obsessed with like the American moms my
1:31:49
age were all
1:31:50
SPEAKER_01: obsessed with the book,
1:31:52
SPEAKER_01: Bringing Up Baby.
1:31:52
SPEAKER_01: Have you heard of this book?
1:31:53
SPEAKER_00: No.
1:31:54
SPEAKER_01: So it's a, I think she's French woman that lived in America or whatever.
1:31:57
And she wrote this book around the French way of parenting and
1:32:01
being a mom.
1:32:02
SPEAKER_00: An American woman.
1:32:03
SPEAKER_01: She's French, but she was living it.
1:32:05
SPEAKER_01: She was lit in.
1:32:06
SPEAKER_01: So she was intrigued by the whole differences.
1:32:08
SPEAKER_01: And it was like this huge New York Times bestseller.
1:32:11
SPEAKER_01: So like all my friends,
1:32:12
SPEAKER_01: all my any of my friends,
1:32:16
wives or any of my friends when I was younger that are women
1:32:20
have read this book.
1:32:22
SPEAKER_01: And.
1:32:24
SPEAKER_01: Do the French,
1:32:26
SPEAKER_01: especially with my value set or whatever,
1:32:27
SPEAKER_01: but the French have a good thing down with values,
1:32:32
SPEAKER_01: how they raise children,
1:32:34
SPEAKER_01: vary against screens.
1:32:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:32:37
SPEAKER_01: I don't know about you.
1:32:38
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to get your perspective on this after I'm done with my rant,
1:32:42
SPEAKER_01: but I've come to the realization,
1:32:44
SPEAKER_01: and now as a father,
1:32:45
SPEAKER_01: that the kids are going to be who they're going to be.
1:32:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:32:49
SPEAKER_01: You can just guide them.
1:32:50
SPEAKER_01: Our job is not,
1:32:51
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:32:51
when they're going down the canoe on the river and they're
1:32:54
about to hit the road,
1:32:56
SPEAKER_01: you just kind of veer them back to the side.
1:32:57
SPEAKER_01: You know, that's all we can do.
1:32:59
But there's a couple of things you can do that will stay with
1:33:03
them for the rest of
1:33:03
SPEAKER_01: their lives,
1:33:04
SPEAKER_01: which is keep them connected to nature.
1:33:08
SPEAKER_01: keep them off screens, and teach them nutrition.
1:33:11
SPEAKER_01: You give those three things, and then you're giving a kid a foundation.
1:33:17
And one could argue there's no better place to do the
1:33:20
combination of all those in France.
1:33:21
SPEAKER_01: So let's argue that.
1:33:25
SPEAKER_00: You see how much you enjoy this system?
1:33:28
SPEAKER_00: Go to Switzerland, Jordan.
1:33:31
SPEAKER_00: Go to...
1:33:32
SPEAKER_00: It's a hundred times.
1:33:34
SPEAKER_00: This is what you like?
1:33:36
SPEAKER_00: In Switzerland, it's a hundred times.
1:33:37
SPEAKER_01: No, I'm going to be clear.
1:33:38
SPEAKER_01: It's too much for me.
1:33:39
SPEAKER_01: It's already too much for me.
1:33:40
SPEAKER_01: It's too much for me here.
1:33:42
SPEAKER_01: It's already too much.
1:33:43
SPEAKER_00: It's the level you're happy.
1:33:45
SPEAKER_01: It's already too much.
1:33:46
SPEAKER_01: It's like...
1:33:48
SPEAKER_01: But I'm someone who I enjoy.
1:33:50
SPEAKER_01: I love...
1:33:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
1:33:51
SPEAKER_01: I guess we call whatever I do work,
1:33:53
SPEAKER_01: but I love what I do and I just get completely engulfed in it.
1:33:57
And I'm someone who sacrifices other things in my life for the
1:34:02
time that I spend on
1:34:03
SPEAKER_01: work-related stuff.
1:34:04
SPEAKER_01: So that's just how I'm wired.
1:34:10
SPEAKER_01: So being in a place that people don't...
1:34:17
It's not as part of the culture of sacrificing things as much
1:34:19
for your work.
1:34:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:34:22
SPEAKER_00: It's even strange.
1:34:23
SPEAKER_00: People think it's strange.
1:34:24
SPEAKER_00: Working in the weekends...
1:34:27
SPEAKER_00: Why do you work and we do it?
1:34:28
SPEAKER_00: It's weird.
1:34:29
SPEAKER_00: Like I have to because I have to.
1:34:31
But like my thing is like when I like wake up and I'm I'm
1:34:34
general when I'm
1:34:35
SPEAKER_01: generally doing stuff,
1:34:36
SPEAKER_01: sometimes I get when I'm doing too much or whatever,
1:34:38
SPEAKER_01: it's like becomes like it's too much.
1:34:41
But like I'm like,
1:34:43
I'm like excited to like have my coffee and start jamming.
1:34:46
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
1:34:47
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm like in.
1:34:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it could be music.
1:34:50
SPEAKER_00: It could be whatever.
1:34:52
SPEAKER_00: You wake up in the morning, it's what you love to do.
1:34:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're doing it, you know.
1:34:56
SPEAKER_00: Me too.
1:34:58
SPEAKER_00: If any time I have doubts,
1:35:01
SPEAKER_00: if any time I'm in trouble,
1:35:03
SPEAKER_00: I just put the working suit on and I go into the workshop.
1:35:13
SPEAKER_00: And I start jamming.
1:35:15
SPEAKER_00: Just like you said,
1:35:16
I start doing something and then I get into the flow and the
1:35:20
time disappears and
1:35:22
SPEAKER_00: problems disappear.
1:35:25
SPEAKER_01: If you weren't doing what you're doing right now,
1:35:28
SPEAKER_01: building Heliosyn,
1:35:32
SPEAKER_01: and you were going to do something completely different,
1:35:36
SPEAKER_01: not start a company or whatever,
1:35:39
SPEAKER_01: in inventing an industrial machine or something,
1:35:42
SPEAKER_01: what would you do?
1:35:44
SPEAKER_01: Completely different profession.
1:35:45
SPEAKER_00: I would be an artist or doing music.
1:35:47
SPEAKER_00: I love music.
1:35:48
SPEAKER_00: I've been playing music since I was little.
1:35:50
SPEAKER_00: What do you play?
1:35:51
SPEAKER_00: I play five instruments.
1:35:53
SPEAKER_00: Really?
1:35:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:35:54
SPEAKER_00: My brother is a very great artist.
1:35:57
SPEAKER_00: He's very good with music.
1:35:59
SPEAKER_00: We played music in my family for a long time and I love contemporary art,
1:36:06
SPEAKER_00: especially especially fake art,
1:36:12
pretending to be art and selling it at an expensive like a
1:36:17
piece of like sand on
1:36:18
SPEAKER_01: the paper.
1:36:18
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
1:36:19
So if I wasn't an engineer or an entrepreneur,
1:36:23
I would have been an artist.
1:36:25
SPEAKER_00: And I think I'm you are an artist.
1:36:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I think I am.
1:36:30
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
1:36:31
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Jordan, for seeing me as an artist.
1:36:33
But I think I went into engineering and science because this is
1:36:38
what my mom did.
1:36:39
SPEAKER_00: She sacrificed her motherhood with me to go into science.
1:36:45
SPEAKER_00: And my mom is the first.
1:36:47
SPEAKER_00: African lady to have a PhD in the genetics.
1:36:51
SPEAKER_00: So she sacrificed.
1:36:53
SPEAKER_01: Where?
1:36:54
SPEAKER_01: In France?
1:36:55
SPEAKER_01: In Algeria.
1:36:55
SPEAKER_00: In Algeria.
1:36:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she had a PhD in Algeria.
1:36:58
SPEAKER_00: But it was with the French lab and Algerian lab.
1:37:01
SPEAKER_00: It was a collaboration.
1:37:03
SPEAKER_00: So she sacrificed the motherhood with me to get into science.
1:37:11
And I think in my unconscious,
1:37:12
I mean,
1:37:13
I've been working through this in therapy.
1:37:16
SPEAKER_00: I want to be an inventor.
1:37:18
SPEAKER_00: That's where it comes from.
1:37:20
SPEAKER_00: To get back the love I never had for my
1:37:23
interesting that said that's where it comes from it took me 10
1:37:25
years to realize
1:37:27
that so if you talk openly with your mom about it yeah no my
1:37:31
mom don't understand
1:37:32
this kind of stuff i have an arab mom you know she's like shut
1:37:35
up shut up and work
1:37:37
shut up you're don't complain your life is too easy she's right
1:37:43
yeah for sure you
1:37:44
SPEAKER_01: have to respect that yeah
1:37:46
SPEAKER_00: Can't complain to my mom.
1:37:48
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, since I'm a French guy, now I go to therapy.
1:37:54
SPEAKER_00: I try to understand why I do that.
1:37:56
SPEAKER_00: But if I wasn't trying to get back that childhood missing,
1:38:02
SPEAKER_00: I would have been writing to art,
1:38:05
SPEAKER_00: doing music and art all day.
1:38:10
SPEAKER_00: And in a way, being a scientist and a tech guy is way too hard.
1:38:17
SPEAKER_00: It's so harder because music and art is easy to me.
1:38:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm very good at it.
1:38:24
I think I would have made a great career because I'm a good
1:38:27
bullshitter and it
1:38:31
SPEAKER_00: would have been nice.
1:38:32
SPEAKER_00: But there wasn't much of a challenge.
1:38:37
science is I'm struggling my engineers my friends are so much
1:38:44
smarter than me
1:38:46
they're way far and I know how to talk to them my specialty is
1:38:53
I know how to talk
1:38:54
to nerds autistic nerds you know that hate people and can't
1:39:01
have interaction social
1:39:03
SPEAKER_00: interaction I know how to talk to them
1:39:06
SPEAKER_00: I know how to give them purpose.
1:39:09
SPEAKER_00: I know how to motivate them.
1:39:12
SPEAKER_00: So it sort of took a place where the challenge is great.
1:39:19
SPEAKER_00: And the execution is great.
1:39:21
SPEAKER_00: So I forgot about art.
1:39:26
SPEAKER_00: Let it aside.
1:39:27
SPEAKER_00: And actually, most of my engineers are very good musicians.
1:39:31
They all play music because you can be creative if you don't
1:39:35
have that little artistic stuff.
1:39:37
SPEAKER_00: We never got a chance to play music.
1:39:40
SPEAKER_01: Really?
1:39:40
SPEAKER_01: So why?
1:39:41
SPEAKER_01: Because we don't have time.
1:39:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but you can take the guitar over five minutes and play a guitar.
1:39:46
SPEAKER_00: We're so busy.
1:39:47
SPEAKER_00: You can't imagine how crazy it is.
1:39:49
SPEAKER_00: Because once we meet, we have to work on a machine.
1:39:53
SPEAKER_00: Because we're not at the same place.
1:39:55
SPEAKER_00: The workshop is in my house.
1:39:58
SPEAKER_00: And then the engineers are everywhere in France.
1:40:00
SPEAKER_01: So you're meeting them once in a while, yeah.
1:40:02
SPEAKER_00: And we're looking at startups where founders play to video games.
1:40:08
SPEAKER_00: And...
1:40:09
SPEAKER_00: And here in Paris,
1:40:10
you have so many startups that raise 30 million and then they
1:40:14
play video games.
1:40:16
SPEAKER_00: We bought a Nintendo console to try to play.
1:40:24
SPEAKER_00: And it has been sitting in the box for four years now.
1:40:28
SPEAKER_01: The original?
1:40:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:40:29
SPEAKER_01: The original Nintendo games.
1:40:32
Oh,
1:40:32
we bought Zelda,
1:40:34
Street Fighters,
1:40:36
and not Street Fighters,
1:40:37
Zelda,
1:40:38
Mario Kart.
1:40:40
SPEAKER_00: But we never got a chance to even open the box.
1:40:44
SPEAKER_00: So creating a hardware startup in heavy industry
1:40:54
SPEAKER_00: is something very difficult.
1:40:55
SPEAKER_00: And particularly,
1:40:56
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
1:40:57
SPEAKER_00: if you wanted to create the hardest startup ever,
1:41:00
SPEAKER_00: you have to put it between waste,
1:41:02
SPEAKER_00: construction and energy,
1:41:04
SPEAKER_00: because it's also three mafia,
1:41:06
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:41:07
SPEAKER_00: energy,
1:41:08
SPEAKER_00: waste and construction.
1:41:09
SPEAKER_01: You're dealing with it all.
1:41:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:41:10
SPEAKER_00: So it's very hard.
1:41:12
SPEAKER_00: It's very time consuming.
1:41:14
SPEAKER_00: So
1:41:16
SPEAKER_00: I get a thrill.
1:41:17
SPEAKER_00: Just like you.
1:41:20
SPEAKER_00: The struggle gives me a thrill.
1:41:23
SPEAKER_00: And I enjoy it.
1:41:25
SPEAKER_01: That's all that matters.
1:41:27
SPEAKER_01: So this is one of my favorite stories with you.
1:41:31
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you remember me telling you about this.
1:41:35
SPEAKER_01: So this was...
1:41:38
SPEAKER_01: It was pretty crazy and no one believes me.
1:41:40
SPEAKER_01: So I've only spoken to a few people about it.
1:41:43
But so I remember I would this was like four years ago,
1:41:49
probably five years ago.
1:41:50
SPEAKER_01: I came down to visit you in St.
1:41:51
Marcellin to see the mission to see one of the early versions
1:41:55
of the machine at
1:41:56
SPEAKER_01: Helios and.
1:41:58
And I remember because at the time it was like in your yard and
1:42:02
the team was
1:42:02
working on it in your yard and you're and you were explaining
1:42:05
to me how the French
1:42:07
SPEAKER_01: government is like watching you guys.
1:42:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:42:11
SPEAKER_01: And,
1:42:11
SPEAKER_01: and like,
1:42:12
SPEAKER_01: and you're like,
1:42:12
SPEAKER_01: and they're like,
1:42:13
SPEAKER_01: they're,
1:42:14
SPEAKER_01: they're monitoring our calls and all this stuff.
1:42:16
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, this guy, what is, I'm like, what is Rafi talking about?
1:42:19
SPEAKER_01: So,
1:42:20
SPEAKER_01: so I get off to St.
1:42:21
SPEAKER_01: Marcellin's like,
1:42:22
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
1:42:22
SPEAKER_01: like a two and a half hour,
1:42:23
SPEAKER_01: two hour,
1:42:24
SPEAKER_01: two and a half hour train ride from Paris or something like that,
1:42:26
SPEAKER_01: whatever.
1:42:27
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm getting,
1:42:29
I go there for a couple of day trip and I'm getting off the
1:42:33
train back in Paris and
1:42:35
SPEAKER_01: And by the way,
1:42:36
SPEAKER_01: I had not taken that many trains in Paris before,
1:42:38
SPEAKER_01: but now I've taken the train a lot.
1:42:41
SPEAKER_01: And this has never,
1:42:42
ever happened to me again and never seen anything happen like
1:42:44
this before ever
1:42:45
SPEAKER_01: again.
1:42:46
SPEAKER_01: So I walk off the train and there's two guys come up to me,
1:42:52
like kind of dressed in street clothes and ask me for my ID and
1:42:55
my passport.
1:42:57
SPEAKER_00: Like, who the fuck are you?
1:42:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:42:59
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, what is going on?
1:43:00
SPEAKER_01: And so it was so crazy.
1:43:03
SPEAKER_00: French CIA.
1:43:04
SPEAKER_00: It's called DGSE.
1:43:05
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:43:06
SPEAKER_00: DGSE.
1:43:07
SPEAKER_00: French CIA.
1:43:09
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:43:11
SPEAKER_01: And I did call you.
1:43:12
SPEAKER_01: I remember calling you and telling you this.
1:43:15
SPEAKER_01: But like, is that real?
1:43:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:43:17
SPEAKER_01: Is that real?
1:43:18
SPEAKER_01: What happened?
1:43:18
SPEAKER_01: Like, who are those guys?
1:43:19
SPEAKER_00: Because at the beginning, when we filed our patent.
1:43:22
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:43:22
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:43:23
SPEAKER_00: You have to go through military acceptance.
1:43:28
The military has to know if what you're doing has to go into
1:43:36
the defense domain or
1:43:39
SPEAKER_00: has to turn to the civil domain.
1:43:41
SPEAKER_00: And since we're dealing with powders and very high temperatures, it has a
1:43:49
SPEAKER_00: defense application or defense questions.
1:43:56
SPEAKER_00: So they were monitoring.
1:43:57
SPEAKER_00: And I'm also an Arab and I think you're an American tourist.
1:44:01
SPEAKER_01: So they were like, what's going on?
1:44:03
SPEAKER_00: And we were just trying to do business to clean the planet.
1:44:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, man, listen, just use solar power for good use.
1:44:12
SPEAKER_00: But these guys have to be have to be cautious and have to, you know,
1:44:18
SPEAKER_01: So who was it?
1:44:19
SPEAKER_01: So who was it, though?
1:44:20
SPEAKER_00: But is it part of what part of the government is it?
1:44:25
SPEAKER_01: It's Defense Department.
1:44:27
SPEAKER_01: Defense Department.
1:44:27
SPEAKER_00: Defense Department.
1:44:30
SPEAKER_00: So you have in the Defense Department,
1:44:31
SPEAKER_00: you have the police side,
1:44:33
SPEAKER_00: you have the army,
1:44:34
SPEAKER_00: and the DGSE sits right in the middle.
1:44:37
SPEAKER_00: So it's intelligence.
1:44:39
SPEAKER_01: Intelligence, the CIA.
1:44:41
SPEAKER_00: So they monitor people and try to find what they're doing.
1:44:46
SPEAKER_01: It's so random, like that never happened.
1:44:48
SPEAKER_01: So it's funny.
1:44:49
SPEAKER_01: So I so I and I totally remember this.
1:44:52
SPEAKER_01: I arrive home and I tell Chloe,
1:44:54
SPEAKER_01: my wife,
1:44:56
SPEAKER_01: and I'm like,
1:44:58
SPEAKER_01: no,
1:44:59
and she and I think and I think at the time her parents might
1:45:02
have been over at the
1:45:03
SPEAKER_01: house.
1:45:04
SPEAKER_01: I think I don't know.
1:45:06
And I was telling her,
1:45:07
I was like,
1:45:07
listen,
1:45:08
I just came back from the trip.
1:45:09
Rafiq told me the government was watching them because they
1:45:12
have high heat and
1:45:15
SPEAKER_01: powders and stuff.
1:45:16
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, whatever.
1:45:17
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, some secret service guy just took me aside and took my ID.
1:45:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:45:26
SPEAKER_00: They checked your bag as well.
1:45:27
SPEAKER_01: You remember they checked what you have in your bag?
1:45:31
SPEAKER_01: But it wasn't aggressive.
1:45:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they were just checking.
1:45:36
SPEAKER_00: We were not suspects.
1:45:38
SPEAKER_00: They were just checking for a thing.
1:45:43
SPEAKER_00: I guess.
1:45:44
we are clean and so and she's like and she wouldn't believe me
1:45:48
she tells them she
1:45:48
didn't know she was like no it's just like some she thought it
1:45:52
was like a control
1:45:53
for like looking at your tickets or something like no no i'm
1:45:56
telling you this is
1:45:58
you know you know this is happening to you and you know based
1:46:01
on how the person
1:46:02
looks and whatever it's like this is like an undercover person
1:46:06
intelligence person
1:46:07
SPEAKER_01: like talking to me you know
1:46:11
SPEAKER_01: I appreciate that.
1:46:13
SPEAKER_00: We're good.
1:46:14
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the French government is helping us.
1:46:17
SPEAKER_00: They know we're good.
1:46:18
SPEAKER_00: We're clear.
1:46:21
SPEAKER_00: They're not monitoring us.
1:46:22
SPEAKER_00: They're not.
1:46:24
SPEAKER_00: But they had to.
1:46:25
SPEAKER_00: They had to.
1:46:27
And we are pretty unique because you don't have startups that
1:46:31
do stuff like this.
1:46:33
SPEAKER_01: No one deals.
1:46:34
SPEAKER_01: Drying bud.
1:46:36
SPEAKER_01: Startups drying bud.
1:46:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, with very high temperatures.
1:46:38
SPEAKER_00: No one does that.
1:46:41
SPEAKER_00: If you're a lab.
1:46:43
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
1:46:44
SPEAKER_00: So let's go back to.
1:46:46
SPEAKER_01: I was kidding.
1:46:47
SPEAKER_00: No, yeah.
1:46:48
SPEAKER_00: It has a connection.
1:46:50
SPEAKER_00: Why French culture is like this.
1:46:52
SPEAKER_00: Why the incentive is power and vacation.
1:46:58
SPEAKER_00: And then you have to understand the mindset of French.
1:47:01
SPEAKER_00: And it took years to understand it.
1:47:04
SPEAKER_00: It comes from la bourgeoisie.
1:47:07
SPEAKER_00: Or the noble.
1:47:11
SPEAKER_00: So noble.
1:47:12
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
1:47:13
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, they called it blue blood.
1:47:16
SPEAKER_00: Did you know that the nobles had blue blood?
1:47:18
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I didn't know that.
1:47:18
SPEAKER_00: So they said that because they never went out on the sun.
1:47:22
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:47:22
SPEAKER_00: So if you're a peasant.
1:47:24
SPEAKER_01: Yes, you're in the sunset.
1:47:25
SPEAKER_00: So your skin tones, tans.
1:47:29
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
1:47:29
SPEAKER_00: But if you're a noble, you stay in.
1:47:31
SPEAKER_00: So you're white.
1:47:33
SPEAKER_00: And we can see your veins.
1:47:34
SPEAKER_00: So they say blue blood because we can see your veins.
1:47:38
SPEAKER_00: And this is the culture.
1:47:40
SPEAKER_00: And what does the monarchs and the nobles do?
1:47:43
SPEAKER_00: They don't work.
1:47:44
SPEAKER_00: Vacation.
1:47:45
SPEAKER_00: They're in vacation all the time.
1:47:47
SPEAKER_00: And they have power.
1:47:49
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
1:47:50
So this sticks into the mind of the French as the tip of
1:47:57
societal success.
1:48:00
SPEAKER_00: Because you have power and you don't work.
1:48:06
and unconsciously it is and even the leftist sure to do that
1:48:13
without knowing it
1:48:14
comes from totally kingly and nobly we're thinking so the
1:48:20
bourgeoisie and in
1:48:21
America you don't have that the richest guy ever in the world
1:48:26
wears sneakers and
1:48:28
SPEAKER_00: don't care and don't care about power because um
1:48:33
Some people do care,
1:48:34
but I mean,
1:48:35
it's not a social success to not work and have power.
1:48:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like socially, it's like, what are you doing?
1:48:49
SPEAKER_01: What do you do every day?
1:48:51
SPEAKER_01: And then socially,
1:48:53
SPEAKER_01: if you're building something,
1:48:54
SPEAKER_01: creating something,
1:48:55
SPEAKER_01: doing something,
1:48:58
SPEAKER_01: that's way more looked higher upon from a society perspective.
1:49:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, socially valuable.
1:49:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
1:49:05
SPEAKER_00: And in France, when it's socially valuable, it's always...
1:49:09
Well,
1:49:09
so it's very interesting and it's just these are funny,
1:49:12
fun cultural differences.
1:49:13
SPEAKER_01: What I've noticed is.
1:49:15
So for obviously food and wine,
1:49:18
and that's like a very big part of the culture here.
1:49:21
SPEAKER_01: And so when you understand the culture around the table,
1:49:24
SPEAKER_01: you drop knowledge around food and wine,
1:49:26
SPEAKER_01: you cook,
1:49:27
SPEAKER_01: you cook well for the French,
1:49:29
SPEAKER_01: you go like way up higher in this respect.
1:49:32
SPEAKER_01: You're respected.
1:49:33
SPEAKER_01: It's very, very funny.
1:49:34
SPEAKER_00: Your life is about food.
1:49:37
SPEAKER_00: I get it.
1:49:38
SPEAKER_01: But it's true.
1:49:40
SPEAKER_00: What's the point of life?
1:49:43
SPEAKER_01: Maybe they're right.
1:49:43
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
1:49:45
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
1:49:46
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
1:49:47
SPEAKER_00: I don't think you should go further than having kids,
1:49:50
SPEAKER_00: making money and having good food.
1:49:52
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's that's the secret of happiness.
1:49:56
SPEAKER_00: And if you have the three of them, you're a paradise.
1:50:00
SPEAKER_01: It's true.
1:50:01
SPEAKER_01: It's like.
1:50:02
SPEAKER_01: No,
1:50:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
1:50:03
SPEAKER_01: I tell people all the time here and they ask me,
1:50:05
SPEAKER_01: I guess I'm like,
1:50:05
SPEAKER_01: it's just a different thing.
1:50:06
Like the social contract here is you deal you deal with
1:50:10
everything that we've
1:50:10
SPEAKER_01: spoken about,
1:50:11
which is you deal with the fact like if you don't come from
1:50:14
money and you don't and
1:50:16
SPEAKER_01: you don't have a certain pedigree,
1:50:18
SPEAKER_01: largely you're just going to the ability unless you're a very,
1:50:21
SPEAKER_01: very,
1:50:21
very small percentage of the population to change your kind of
1:50:25
outcome or your like
1:50:27
SPEAKER_01: level in society is very like the social mobility is very low.
1:50:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:50:31
But the social contract is I'm going to give that up for
1:50:35
lifestyle and the vacation
1:50:37
SPEAKER_01: and all that stuff.
1:50:39
SPEAKER_00: And like in the U.S., anybody can become a billionaire.
1:50:44
I mean,
1:50:45
of course,
1:50:47
not anybody,
1:50:47
but a lot of people get the chance to go all the way to the
1:50:51
top.
1:50:52
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
1:50:52
SPEAKER_00: Here in France, it's very difficult.
1:50:54
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
1:50:55
SPEAKER_00: Very, very difficult.
1:50:56
SPEAKER_00: If you haven't been to the right schools with the right people,
1:51:00
SPEAKER_01: Well,
1:51:00
SPEAKER_01: it's just like a,
1:51:01
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
1:51:01
SPEAKER_01: if I were to like,
1:51:04
SPEAKER_01: if I were to boil it down into something very,
1:51:06
SPEAKER_01: like one simple thing,
1:51:09
SPEAKER_01: it's a,
1:51:12
the American kind of general mindset is definitely a mindset
1:51:15
around abundance.
1:51:16
And the French mindset is definitely much more around the
1:51:20
concept of scarcity.
1:51:22
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
1:51:23
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
1:51:24
SPEAKER_00: The pie is only so big.
1:51:25
SPEAKER_00: It has value because it's scarce.
1:51:27
SPEAKER_00: I mean, if I could.
1:51:29
SPEAKER_00: It's scarce stuff.
1:51:30
SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
1:51:31
SPEAKER_01: It's people behave where the pie is only so big.
1:51:36
SPEAKER_01: And so instead of being additive to the pie,
1:51:40
SPEAKER_01: it's about keeping people away from your part of the pie.
1:51:44
SPEAKER_01: So I remember you telling me this example.
1:51:46
SPEAKER_01: I remember I came across a company that I was interested in talking to.
1:51:50
SPEAKER_01: I think it was called B-Gene.
1:51:53
SPEAKER_01: It was a biomanufacturing company down in Granova.
1:51:57
And I asked you because I saw you were connected with the CEO
1:51:59
and you're like,
1:52:01
SPEAKER_01: Sure, I'll connect you.
1:52:01
And then you were telling me how they thought it was crazy that
1:52:04
you connected them
1:52:06
SPEAKER_01: with an investor of yours.
1:52:07
SPEAKER_00: They were like, nobody does that.
1:52:10
SPEAKER_01: And like, that's so weird.
1:52:11
SPEAKER_01: Like, why wouldn't you do that?
1:52:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because you keep it to yourself.
1:52:15
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
1:52:16
SPEAKER_00: It's such a different cultural.
1:52:17
SPEAKER_01: It's so different.
1:52:18
SPEAKER_01: True, true.
1:52:19
SPEAKER_01: It's so different.
1:52:20
SPEAKER_00: And so,
1:52:22
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
1:52:23
SPEAKER_00: because abundance,
1:52:25
SPEAKER_00: abundance brings abundance and they don't have this mindset,
1:52:29
SPEAKER_00: this you have to fight.
1:52:31
SPEAKER_00: No, you have to pay it forward.
1:52:34
SPEAKER_01: You have to like go out of the way and help people and do things.
1:52:39
And it's like a very human thing where it's like someone does a
1:52:43
favor for you.
1:52:43
SPEAKER_01: You will always remember it subconsciously.
1:52:46
SPEAKER_01: And you always be thinking about that person.
1:52:48
SPEAKER_00: Even myself,
1:52:49
SPEAKER_00: I still have this somewhere in my head because I'm also French,
1:52:55
SPEAKER_00: so I can see what you're talking about.
1:52:59
SPEAKER_00: Me too, I have this scarcity way of thinking.
1:53:02
SPEAKER_00: But compared to the other French, I have more abundance.
1:53:06
SPEAKER_00: But still, it's in there.
1:53:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:53:08
SPEAKER_00: It's still in there.
1:53:09
SPEAKER_01: But part of it is true, right?
1:53:11
SPEAKER_01: Like you have less resources going back and forth.
1:53:15
SPEAKER_01: Disposable income is way lower.
1:53:17
SPEAKER_01: It's all, like I said, it's all nothing better or worse.
1:53:20
SPEAKER_01: It's all the system that works differently.
1:53:23
SPEAKER_01: Fundamentally works differently.
1:53:24
SPEAKER_00: Even here, vendor capital...
1:53:27
that you will struggle like crazy to get a hundred thousand,
1:53:31
a couple of hundred thousand.
1:53:33
SPEAKER_00: In America, people will give you five, ten million, not on a paycheck.
1:53:37
SPEAKER_00: Now they don't do that, but it's very easier and it's much more money.
1:53:43
SPEAKER_00: And then the abundance is also because the country is abundant.
1:53:47
SPEAKER_01: Total.
1:53:49
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the bridge between America and France
1:53:54
is something to build because there is many things that the
1:53:59
French can bring to the
1:54:00
SPEAKER_00: U.S.
1:54:01
SPEAKER_00: and many things that Americans can bring to France.
1:54:04
SPEAKER_01: Well, listen, man, they do.
1:54:06
SPEAKER_01: Like when you were talking about in the technology world,
1:54:08
SPEAKER_01: I heard an interview with,
1:54:12
SPEAKER_00: what's his name?
1:54:13
SPEAKER_01: Alex Karp, the CEO of Palantir.
1:54:16
SPEAKER_01: He's a character.
1:54:18
And he had this whole rant around,
1:54:20
he was about Europe and he was talking about France.
1:54:23
SPEAKER_01: And he's like,
1:54:24
SPEAKER_01: And I've heard a few people say this,
1:54:25
SPEAKER_01: but specifically,
1:54:26
SPEAKER_01: he was like,
1:54:27
SPEAKER_01: France,
1:54:27
SPEAKER_01: he goes,
1:54:28
is either number one or number two in the world in technical
1:54:33
talent for AI.
1:54:35
SPEAKER_01: He goes,
1:54:35
SPEAKER_01: if they would get their head out of it,
1:54:36
SPEAKER_01: I think he literally said,
1:54:37
SPEAKER_01: if they got their head out of their ass,
1:54:39
SPEAKER_01: they would have some of the most interesting,
1:54:43
SPEAKER_01: like,
1:54:43
SPEAKER_01: best companies in the world in the field.
1:54:46
SPEAKER_01: And instead, the system here trains amazing minds and...
1:54:54
in a second yeah I mean even the open claw guy right like that
1:54:58
whole thing right I
1:54:59
know he's Austrian but still it's like it's a perfect example
1:55:01
it's like man how
1:55:02
does someone in Europe not be like yo like we need to keep that
1:55:06
here yeah and it
1:55:10
SPEAKER_01: And it,
1:55:11
SPEAKER_01: what it is,
1:55:11
SPEAKER_01: is it's,
1:55:12
SPEAKER_01: it's something that could fit the European model too,
1:55:15
SPEAKER_01: or it could be turned into a foundation and all this other,
1:55:18
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:55:18
SPEAKER_01: that would work with how you guys like doing your things,
1:55:21
SPEAKER_01: you know?
1:55:23
SPEAKER_01: But no, I get it.
1:55:24
SPEAKER_01: I get it.
1:55:24
SPEAKER_01: I respect it.
1:55:26
I think that the reality of it is if you're someone who wants
1:55:31
to create stuff and
1:55:31
SPEAKER_01: try stuff and you don't come from means or,
1:55:36
SPEAKER_01: and you want to maintain your independence and create abundance,
1:55:41
SPEAKER_01: the U.S.
1:55:41
SPEAKER_01: system is just the best place to do it.
1:55:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:55:43
So if we live in a simulation and the rules of the game would
1:55:52
be to challenge your
1:55:57
SPEAKER_00: way to compromise.
1:56:01
SPEAKER_00: The name of the game is you get challenges and you have to
1:56:06
SPEAKER_00: Stay straight.
1:56:07
SPEAKER_00: So what is the challenge that the Americans have?
1:56:14
SPEAKER_00: What is the challenge that the French have?
1:56:18
Because Americans have all that spirit for entrepreneurship,
1:56:22
for tech and everything.
1:56:23
SPEAKER_00: But food is shit.
1:56:25
SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's very good food in America.
1:56:28
SPEAKER_00: Not the food is shit, the feeding system.
1:56:32
SPEAKER_01: I can certify it.
1:56:34
SPEAKER_01: Compare the two, it's shit.
1:56:36
SPEAKER_00: And in France,
1:56:37
SPEAKER_00: the food is fantastic,
1:56:39
SPEAKER_00: but the entrepreneurial mind and the business spirit is shit,
1:56:44
SPEAKER_00: you know?
1:56:45
SPEAKER_00: So can't we create a world where both work?
1:56:50
SPEAKER_00: It's Switzerland.
1:56:51
SPEAKER_00: That's a simulation theory.
1:56:55
Once you win the game,
1:56:56
you end up into Switzerland because there you have amazing
1:57:02
decentralized
1:57:04
SPEAKER_00: companies, you have also very centralized cement production.
1:57:08
SPEAKER_00: The largest cement producer in the world is Swiss.
1:57:11
SPEAKER_00: So you have that,
1:57:14
SPEAKER_00: but you also have a tissue,
1:57:17
SPEAKER_00: not a tissue,
1:57:18
SPEAKER_00: a network of small companies that create very precise mechanical stuff.
1:57:24
SPEAKER_00: And so they have the business thrive.
1:57:27
SPEAKER_00: They have the talent.
1:57:30
SPEAKER_00: The French talent, trained talent, and they have the best food ever.
1:57:34
SPEAKER_01: The Swiss?
1:57:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:57:35
SPEAKER_00: Because they're,
1:57:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:57:37
SPEAKER_00: they have the French part,
1:57:38
SPEAKER_00: you have the German part and the Italian part.
1:57:40
SPEAKER_01: They get all three mixed, yeah.
1:57:41
SPEAKER_00: So can you imagine the food?
1:57:42
SPEAKER_00: It's crazy.
1:57:43
SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you go in the Italian part, the food is so good.
1:57:47
SPEAKER_00: The French part as well.
1:57:49
SPEAKER_00: And the German part is way... A little tougher?
1:57:52
Yeah,
1:57:53
it's a bit less interesting,
1:57:56
but still they have that entrepreneurial stuff.
1:58:00
SPEAKER_00: So it's also a philosophical and a cultural question.
1:58:06
SPEAKER_00: Why they have no more?
1:58:11
SPEAKER_00: Why they have the entrepreneurial spirit and why they have the good food?
1:58:16
It's because they are the bankers of the world and they have so
1:58:19
much money.
1:58:20
SPEAKER_00: It's also because because of that, in my opinion.
1:58:24
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, listen, I don't think.
1:58:29
SPEAKER_00: As if it's a sim, the world is a simulation.
1:58:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but why do we have why everybody is struggling with this or that?
1:58:37
SPEAKER_00: Why can't we have that?
1:58:38
SPEAKER_01: Well, because that's how you said that's how you drive meaning.
1:58:40
SPEAKER_01: And so that's our job.
1:58:41
SPEAKER_01: Our job as humans is to complain and improve and create and grow.
1:58:47
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:58:47
SPEAKER_01: So like if we are not growing, there's no challenge.
1:58:49
If there's no challenge,
1:58:50
if we're not growing in our lives,
1:58:51
we're not happy.
1:58:53
SPEAKER_01: If someone gives you,
1:58:54
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:58:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:58:56
SPEAKER_01: three year age whiskey and you're like,
1:58:57
SPEAKER_01: no,
1:58:57
SPEAKER_01: I need five year age whiskey or 10 or 20 or whatever it is.
1:59:01
SPEAKER_01: You're never happy.
1:59:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:59:03
SPEAKER_01: Like that's the human thing, you know?
1:59:06
SPEAKER_01: So.
1:59:07
Even if you have anything,
1:59:08
everything you want,
1:59:09
you'll create problems in order to.
1:59:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:59:12
SPEAKER_01: So that's like the.
1:59:14
SPEAKER_00: It's nature.
1:59:16
SPEAKER_00: It's nature of humans.
1:59:17
SPEAKER_01: Well,
1:59:17
SPEAKER_01: the nature,
1:59:18
my point of being when I was saying like I was what I was
1:59:21
saying in the context of
1:59:22
SPEAKER_01: the simulation theory in nature is.
1:59:26
SPEAKER_01: I think when you're doing simulations,
1:59:28
you're always you're always creating the conditions for like
1:59:31
the most interesting
1:59:32
SPEAKER_01: outcomes,
1:59:33
SPEAKER_01: right?
1:59:33
SPEAKER_01: That's how simulations work, right?
1:59:34
SPEAKER_01: You don't want the average outcome.
1:59:36
SPEAKER_01: Like when you're creating a simulation to like test stuff,
1:59:39
SPEAKER_01: you want to create the most messy,
1:59:40
SPEAKER_00: weird,
1:59:42
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:59:42
SPEAKER_01: situation.
1:59:45
and my but it was my point is around the simulation theory and
1:59:48
nature was the
1:59:52
nature keeps us in balance as biological beings and as a planet
1:59:58
and so i think
1:59:59
it'll it's kind of like over the arc of time it kind of swings
2:00:03
you back swings you
2:00:05
back and forth so it's already kind of prescribed for you so
2:00:08
when you think of the
2:00:09
simulation theory it's it's kind of like well if something's
2:00:12
swinging this that way
2:00:13
We need to go back this way,
2:00:15
but we're going to make it really interesting.
2:00:17
And I think that's where we are right now today in this in the
2:00:21
beginning of this
2:00:21
new world order where it's like we swung way too far one way
2:00:26
with this kind of
2:00:26
SPEAKER_01: like.
2:00:28
SPEAKER_01: Like neoliberal globalist view, print a bunch of money like.
2:00:35
outsource growth growth growth growth growth outsource
2:00:38
outsource it to the cheapest
2:00:39
labor market stop making stuff like give a bunch of people
2:00:43
phones they fucking doom
2:00:44
SPEAKER_01: scroll feed them a bunch of processed foods and what up you know
2:00:49
SPEAKER_00: Put them to sleep, put them to sleep.
2:00:52
SPEAKER_00: And so the point of this,
2:00:53
SPEAKER_01: my point of what I'm saying is,
2:00:54
SPEAKER_01: I think we're just like we're entering.
2:00:57
SPEAKER_01: Now we're going to be swinging back towards this other this other way.
2:01:01
SPEAKER_01: And it's just it's just that's just it's just like nature.
2:01:06
SPEAKER_01: It's like we think that the system was going to break and it is breaking.
2:01:11
And so in a weird way,
2:01:14
we have to and we're an interesting age,
2:01:16
like as middle aged guys.
2:01:18
SPEAKER_01: Like we have to be like,
2:01:20
SPEAKER_01: we're about to,
2:01:20
SPEAKER_01: we're stepping in,
2:01:21
SPEAKER_01: we're living through right now,
2:01:22
SPEAKER_01: we're stepping into something fundamentally different.
2:01:26
SPEAKER_01: And so it's like instead of trying to hold on to what we had before,
2:01:28
SPEAKER_01: just be like,
2:01:29
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
2:01:29
SPEAKER_01: that was like a great ride.
2:01:31
SPEAKER_01: Now we're on to something really, really interesting.
2:01:33
SPEAKER_01: Now you should maintain tradition and keep tradition,
2:01:36
SPEAKER_01: but embrace that we're entering into something new.
2:01:39
And how I got into this whole rant,
2:01:41
well,
2:01:42
you were talking about where to live.
2:01:44
SPEAKER_01: And I said, at the end of the day, there's good in bed anywhere.
2:01:46
SPEAKER_01: It's also,
2:01:47
SPEAKER_01: I believe,
2:01:48
SPEAKER_01: is someone who's not who's like spending most of my time right now,
2:01:51
SPEAKER_01: not in my own country.
2:01:53
SPEAKER_01: It's also like, where is your family from?
2:01:55
SPEAKER_01: Where are your roots from?
2:01:56
SPEAKER_01: Like, where are your core relationships?
2:01:58
At the end of the day,
2:01:59
as you know,
2:01:59
when you have kids,
2:02:00
you only have so much time in the day.
2:02:02
SPEAKER_01: And you're like.
2:02:04
SPEAKER_01: When I like beyond that and work,
2:02:07
SPEAKER_01: when people ask me about being here,
2:02:09
SPEAKER_01: the thing I miss most are the small things,
2:02:10
SPEAKER_01: just grabbing a beer,
2:02:11
SPEAKER_01: hanging out with friends,
2:02:12
SPEAKER_01: like doing like playing in my weekly basketball league or whatever,
2:02:15
SPEAKER_01: you know,
2:02:16
SPEAKER_01: like that's the thing.
2:02:16
SPEAKER_01: Those are the things you miss.
2:02:18
SPEAKER_00: Not the great things.
2:02:20
yeah and so it's like my point is like to your point about
2:02:22
where to live and all
2:02:24
SPEAKER_01: this other stuff it's like you to me it's like
2:02:27
I think we've also like self-optimized for our own careers and
2:02:31
what we want to do
2:02:32
SPEAKER_01: in our own lives versus,
2:02:33
SPEAKER_01: and we've lost a lot of those traditions.
2:02:36
SPEAKER_01: And so I think like being rooted close to family and so your,
2:02:40
SPEAKER_01: so your,
2:02:41
SPEAKER_01: your kids can have like relationships and as much as you can,
2:02:46
SPEAKER_01: like a strong network around them and keep the familial unit together.
2:02:50
SPEAKER_01: I think there's something very special about that.
2:02:52
SPEAKER_01: It's really hard to do.
2:02:55
SPEAKER_01: But I think,
2:02:57
SPEAKER_01: We could prioritize that more for sure.
2:02:59
SPEAKER_00: Because people live in a segmented,
2:03:04
SPEAKER_00: you know,
2:03:04
everybody has their own closed environment and we don't share
2:03:10
as much as before.
2:03:12
SPEAKER_00: I remember before 2000, France was very different.
2:03:20
SPEAKER_00: You came to France in a different world.
2:03:23
SPEAKER_00: Before all the gates were open, you could enter anywhere.
2:03:27
SPEAKER_00: And people used to live together.
2:03:30
We had neighbors meeting all the time,
2:03:34
having lunch together,
2:03:36
having dinner together.
2:03:37
SPEAKER_00: Now people don't do that anymore.
2:03:39
it's different so you have social differences you have cultural
2:03:47
differences which
2:03:51
killed sort of the the traditional way of living in communities
2:03:56
at the same time
2:03:57
you have very innovative stuff that looks like science fiction
2:04:02
i mean ai is just a
2:04:05
SPEAKER_00: crazy revolution and and the
2:04:09
SPEAKER_00: People don't know what to do with it.
2:04:11
SPEAKER_00: People are scared or hype it.
2:04:15
SPEAKER_00: It's just science fiction becoming real.
2:04:20
SPEAKER_00: It's crazy because I've never thought I would see it during my lifetime.
2:04:24
SPEAKER_01: No, it's crazy.
2:04:25
SPEAKER_00: I thought this would happen.
2:04:27
SPEAKER_00: I would be long dead before I can see walking robots.
2:04:31
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
2:04:32
SPEAKER_00: That can think and then sight me.
2:04:34
SPEAKER_01: And they're getting there.
2:04:35
SPEAKER_01: It's going to be quicker than people think.
2:04:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:04:38
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, man.
2:04:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm pretty much... Like I said, maybe it's age, whatever it is.
2:04:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm pretty convinced that for me,
2:04:49
SPEAKER_01: for my own personal thing,
2:04:50
SPEAKER_01: I need to live in a place that has less people than a big city.
2:04:54
SPEAKER_01: I think that the idea of,
2:04:59
SPEAKER_01: especially with what's going on because of technology and society,
2:05:02
living in a place where you're being around more people just
2:05:05
annoys you or is...
2:05:07
SPEAKER_01: annoying, where it's being like, oh, I like I want to see people.
2:05:10
I think as a as we're going to be a really important thing in
2:05:13
the next kind of 20,
2:05:13
30 years.
2:05:15
Yeah,
2:05:15
I live in the mountains,
2:05:16
so I don't see much people when they come here to Paris.
2:05:20
I'm I'm amazed about how could I how did I manage to live 10
2:05:26
years of mine?
2:05:27
SPEAKER_00: Now you get off the train, you're like, whoa, where are so many people?
2:05:32
SPEAKER_00: And then and
2:05:33
I remember I was in Australia working with a chef and he came
2:05:38
to Paris once in his life.
2:05:40
SPEAKER_00: It's like the only souvenir that I have from Paris is it was raining.
2:05:45
SPEAKER_00: I was in Paris.
2:05:46
I was walking in the street and a lady nearly stabbed me in my
2:05:50
eye with her.
2:05:51
umbrella and then and then he tried to get into the the metro
2:05:57
and an old lady
2:05:58
pushed him to get him to the train instead of him it was like
2:06:04
he was he was so
2:06:06
amazed about the violence the social violence so as a city life
2:06:11
in a city my man
2:06:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think every large city is like that.
2:06:15
SPEAKER_00: And I think,
2:06:18
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
2:06:18
I thought I was a strong person and I could come back to the
2:06:23
city anytime,
2:06:24
SPEAKER_00: but I can't.
2:06:26
SPEAKER_00: Now I realize if I come back here, I'll be weak.
2:06:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's about weak.
2:06:32
SPEAKER_01: It's like a different, it's just a different rhythm.
2:06:34
SPEAKER_01: Like I don't, it's a different rhythm.
2:06:37
SPEAKER_00: I'll get stronger if I stay.
2:06:39
SPEAKER_01: But I think what you're saying is totally true and is,
2:06:46
and I'm also in a certain situation where I'm like I have time
2:06:49
and interest in
2:06:50
SPEAKER_01: developing new relationships not like just like okay I have like
2:06:55
SPEAKER_01: you know, my family here, my friends here, whatever.
2:06:58
SPEAKER_01: And I don't need anything else.
2:07:00
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
2:07:00
SPEAKER_01: Like I actually have an interest in, and then generally in a good place.
2:07:04
SPEAKER_01: Like I hope,
2:07:04
SPEAKER_01: but I think,
2:07:05
SPEAKER_01: you know,
2:07:05
SPEAKER_01: the reality of it is with your point,
2:07:06
SPEAKER_01: it's like,
2:07:07
SPEAKER_01: it's also the French culture thing.
2:07:08
SPEAKER_01: Like people just don't talk.
2:07:09
SPEAKER_01: They don't hang.
2:07:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:07:11
SPEAKER_01: No one hangs.
2:07:13
SPEAKER_01: People don't hang like in general, which is a bummer.
2:07:16
SPEAKER_01: But anyways, all right, my man, should we wrap it up?
2:07:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we should.
2:07:20
SPEAKER_00: What time is it?
2:07:21
SPEAKER_01: I have no idea.
2:07:21
SPEAKER_01: 1130.
2:07:24
SPEAKER_01: A couple of hours.
2:07:25
SPEAKER_00: All right.
2:07:26
SPEAKER_01: I like it.
2:07:26
SPEAKER_01: I like it.
2:07:27
SPEAKER_01: So anyways,
2:07:27
SPEAKER_01: anything else you want to you want to tell folks what you're up to,
2:07:31
SPEAKER_01: where to reach out?
2:07:32
SPEAKER_00: No, I just want to say that the love here is a great thing.
2:07:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm so lucky to have that kind of relationship.
2:07:48
And I value this more than anything else because I'm free to
2:07:53
talk when I'm with you.
2:07:54
SPEAKER_00: I can have my opinion.
2:07:55
SPEAKER_00: We can fact check things.
2:07:57
SPEAKER_00: We can have debates.
2:07:59
And this is very valuable because today you can't have debates
2:08:04
and people fight.
2:08:06
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm very proud and very happy that we have this relationship.
2:08:14
SPEAKER_00: And let's do it again.
2:08:15
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
2:08:16
SPEAKER_01: So Rafiq, the first in person.
2:08:20
SPEAKER_01: Cheers.
2:08:22
SPEAKER_01: Santé.
2:08:24
SPEAKER_00: Santé.
2:08:25
SPEAKER_00: Et voilà.
2:08:26
SPEAKER_01: All right.
2:08:27
SPEAKER_01: Hey, my friends, Jordan here.
2:08:29
SPEAKER_01: First and foremost,
2:08:30
SPEAKER_01: a sincere thank you and appreciation for all of our early listeners,
2:08:34
SPEAKER_01: readers,
2:08:34
SPEAKER_01: and supporters at Going Direct.
2:08:36
It's really what keeps me going to do this each and every week
2:08:38
because there's
2:08:39
SPEAKER_01: clearly a community of folks out there looking to build a Going Direct.
2:08:43
SPEAKER_01: economy, which gets me super excited.
2:08:45
SPEAKER_01: Secondly, if you haven't subscribed, please do so.
2:08:47
SPEAKER_01: Our main channel and community is forming over on Substack.
2:08:51
SPEAKER_01: The link is in the show notes below.
2:08:53
And we'll also be putting out our weekly conversations at
2:08:55
YouTube,
2:08:56
Spotify,
2:08:57
and Apple Podcasts.
2:08:58
SPEAKER_01: I hope you all have a great day and remember to go direct.