Latest / Tales From Aztlantis / Episode 103: Aztec Virtue Signalling!

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Episode 103: Aztec Virtue Signalling! · Tales From Aztlantis

• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've all learned a good lesson.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: I've always heard that honesty is the best policy.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Dear listeners, and welcome to Tales from Ostlantis, where we take you on a journey through Chicano, Mexicano, and Mesoamerican history and archaeology, and along the way, we challenge pseudo-historical distortions and confront the disinformation that too often surrounds these very topics.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: I am your host, Curly Tlapoyawa.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: That is right, folks.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: I am writing solo for this episode.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: My esteemed colleague and co-host, Dr.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Ruben Ariano Tlakatekak, had pressing matters to attend to, so I am left to my own devices.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: And for this episode, we had planned on doing something a little different.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: You see, this episode is a direct follow-up to our previous episode, a debrief or postmortem or addendum, if you will.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: We're still working on what we're going to call it.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have any ideas, let us know on the Discord.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: But for this episode, I wanted to flesh out something that I had originally intended to talk about during our interview with Dr.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Sebastian Purcell about his book, The Outward Path.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, we ran out of time.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Purcell had a heart out, and the conversation just took on a life of its own and had its own flow, and I never really got a chance to fully explore the topic that I am going to be talking about today.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: And before I get into it, I want to take a moment to say thank you to all of the listeners out there who reached out because of the last episode.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: It seems that Dr.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Purcell's work really resonated with quite a few of you.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: And we got some great texts, emails, messages, comments on the Discord, just telling us how much you enjoyed that episode and how much you got out of it.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm glad that it resonated with you.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad that you found the information useful.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: And for those who didn't like the episode, well, what can I say?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Our next one will be better.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: And with that, I want to get into this episode and talk about the topic, which I am calling Aztec virtue signaling.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Did the Aztecs have a concept of virtue?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the issue is a little bit more complicated than one might think.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: After all, the Nahuat language has words for goodness, justice, wisdom, truth, and proper conduct, but not a single word that perfectly matches the English word for virtue.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: Some scholars see this as decisive evidence for the lack of virtue as a concept, while others believe that the concept is expressed more appropriately through other Nahuatl words.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Searching for exact word matches can cause us to overlook how philosophical ideas are expressed in the Nahuatl language.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Scholarly debates like this are usually reserved for seldom-read academic journals held behind overpriced and inaccessible paywalls.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: But this debate recently spilled over to social media when historian Camilla Townsend reviewed Sebastian Purcell's Discourses of the Elders, the Aztec Wewetlahtoli, a first English translation.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: In her review, Townsend criticized Purcell's translation of the Nahuat pairing of the words kwali and yektli as virtue.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Townsend argues that the phrase simply means the good, the right, and that there is no evidence that the two words together form a distinct ethical concept.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: It is this specific point that I will be examining in this episode, a point that I believe is incorrect.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Now, before I continue, I want to explain what I mean by the term virtue.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Merriam-Webster defines virtue as moral excellence or conformity to a standard of right.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: More broadly, philosophers use the word to describe character qualities that compel a person to consistently behave in morally good and appropriate ways.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: Although Aristotle and later Christian thinkers developed influential ideas around virtue, the concept itself is much broader than either tradition.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Throughout this episode, I use virtue in the general philosophical sense to mean the cultivation and habitual practice of what is good and what is right.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: On its face, this disagreement over the meaning of the pairing of Kwali and Yektli might just come across as minor differences over translation.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: But it serves to raise a larger question.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: How do we go about accurately translating ideas and concepts from a language with its own philosophical traditions that are pretty unique and far removed from the rest of the world?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: If we choose to translate every Nahuat word literally, we run the risk of overlooking ideas and concepts that the original authors wanted to convey.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Conversely, if we translate a text too loosely, we risk introducing ideas and concepts that were never intended within the original text.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Striking the correct balance requires us to do more than just crack open a grammar and a dictionary and get to work.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: It requires that we carefully examine how certain words function across the Nahuat language and how they work within the Nahuat culture's intellectual and philosophical traditions.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Townsend's criticism starts off with a reasonable point.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Nahuat is well known for using paired expressions.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes these pairs combine two ordinary words to create a third metaphorical meaning.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: This is known as a difrasismo.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, the Nahuat language is well known for its ability to form rich metaphorical expressions.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: For example, in shochit inquikat, which means flower and song, refers to poetry or artistic expression.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: In Ak, in tepet, or water and mountain means a city.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: You can't understand these concepts by translating each word individually because it's the pair that creates the new idea.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: However, Townsend notes that not all Nahuat pairs work this way.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes words are paired for emphasis or to invoke a poetic effect, not necessarily to form a new meaning.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Her observation that translators shouldn't assume every word pair is a difrasismo makes perfect sense.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: The problem, however, comes from Townsend's conclusion about Quali and Yektli.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: You see, since Kuali and Yektli can appear on their own, she asserts that all pairings of Kuali and Yektli merely emphasize goodness and rightness and not the more abstract concept of virtue.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: She even goes so far as to claim that there is no evidence that Kuali and Yektli together can ever be taken to mean virtue.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Townsend writes, and I quote, the Nawas paired words and phrases regularly and constantly, and although sometimes these pairings took on a third meaning as a defrasismo, most often they were doubled up merely in order to emphasize the word's original meaning.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: This is the case here.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: The reason that neither Librado Silva nor anyone else has ever concluded that quali plus yektli equals virtue is that there is no evidence that it is so.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: However, her statement that nobody has ever concluded that quali plus yektli equals virtue, and that there is no evidence to support this interpretation simply isn't true.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Several other sources, including Alonso de Molina's vocabulario and lingua castellana y mexicana from fifteen fifty five, used variations of these paired terms to mean virtue.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: In his sixteenth century dictionary, Molina records the paired expression Gualtiguani Yectiwani and translates it in Spanish simply as virtu or virtue.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: I feel that this entry is important because it directly supports the idea that virtue can be expressed as a single ethical concept in the Nahuat language.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: This becomes evident when we examine the morphology of the words used in this paired expression.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: The verb qualtia means to make good or to improve, while yektiya means to make right or to correct.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: The suffix wani refers to an instrument or tool or a means by which something is accomplished.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Taken literally, qualtiwani can be understood as that by which goodness is achieved, while yektiwani can be taken as that by which rightness is achieved.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: If Molina believed that this expression simply referred to two separate qualities, he could have easily translated this pairing as goodness and rightness.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, he made a deliberate choice to define the expression with a single word virtue.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: I believe this decision demonstrates that he recognized the pair as expressing a wider ethical concept than the literal translation permits.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: In addition to Molina, later dictionaries and authors also demonstrate the same pattern.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: For example, Francisco Javier Claviero also uses Qualtiwani Yewani to mean virtue.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: In his Arte de la Lengua Mexicana, Horacio Carroci provides a philosophical translation of the phrase qualitat delpocazin as virtuous lad, or in Spanish algun moso virtuoso, which by the way is a pretty dope rhyme, moso virtuoso.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: A line of text that also has the more literal translation of a youth who was a good person.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: This clearly demonstrates that authors working in Nahuatliterature have long provided space for philosophical renderings of quali and yektli that connect them to the concept of virtue.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: And perhaps most importantly, Bernardino de Sagun himself directly translates in quali inktli as virtue on Folio thirty three R of Book one of the Florentine Codex.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I quote Yu Totecuyo Dios in motetlasotalitzin kewatsin in Espiritusanto Kamochiweli Au Katopan Kiwalmo Walia in Iqualtilis intilis awiac in motetlasotlalitzin otrigmo chilitzino in ischic inquali in iectli in intechka in motla chivaltinuan inic mochitech palevis in titlaka.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Or in Spanish, and forgive my horrible Spanish, O Señor Dios nuestro, el Vuestro Omnipotente Amor, que es el Vuestro Divino Espiritu, derramas subondad y suavidad sobre todas las cosas que criastes, dando atodas vuestras criaturas virtu de que el hombre se pueda aprovechar.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Or in English, O Lord our God, your omnipotent love, which is our divine spirit, pours out its goodness and gentleness upon all the things you created, granting all your creatures virtue that man may benefit from.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: More recently, Osiris Gonzalez included all of these entries in his comprehensive analysis of Nahua philosophical vocabulary.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: And if you haven't read his book, if you could read Spanish, read his book, it's excellent.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: This consistency is important because these authors worked across different centuries and in different contexts.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Simply put, they were not imposing new translations, but they were maintaining a well-established tradition of using words derived from kwali and yektli to denote virtue.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Other related words support this idea.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: In his 1885 diccionario de la Lengua Nahuat o Mexicana, Remy Simone translates the noun yektilistli as both justice and virtue, and the verb yektoka as to act rightly or live virtuously.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: These words are part of the same word family based on yektli, meaning right or straight.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of being separate definitions, they form a constellation of terms, demonstrating a clear philosophical vocabulary for proper conduct, justice and moral excellence.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: When we see this bigger picture and examine the connective tissue that groups these words together, it becomes harder to agree with Townsend's claim that there is no evidence connecting quali and yetli with virtue.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: The Wewetlachtoli, or discourses of the elders, also support this conclusion.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: These texts were rhetorical tools used to teach young people about the qualities expected of adults within society.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Throughout the text, we often see parents, elders, and rulers telling children to recognize, remember, and practice that which is quali and yetli.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Townsend prefers to translate these as calls to know what is good and what is right.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: And while these translations are accurate in the literal sense, we must consider whether they fully capture the philosophical meaning of the original text.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: In these speeches, goodness and rightness always go together as the standard for judging character and behavior.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: In modern English, the best word for this combined ideal is often virtue.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: It should be noted that not all Nahuat language scholars agree with Townsend's conclusions regarding Purcell's work, specifically his translation of Kali and Yekli.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Julia Madizak, a Nahuat language scholar and colleague of Townsend's at the Association of Nahuatl Scholars, also reviewed Purcell's book.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And while she has criticisms of her own, she does note that, I quote, Purcell is a very skillful translator with an exceptional command of Nahuatl in the final sections of his introductory matter, he thoroughly explains his procedure, showing how much consideration went into rendering the Wewetlahtoli in English.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: His philosophical glossary included at the end of the volume and his insightful footnotes to the English translation are the highlights of this book.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: As someone who has worked with Nahuat texts for the past twenty years, I am particularly fond of Purcell's philosophical translations of terms such as quali yekli, something good or for Purcell virtue, and akwali ayektli, something bad for Purcell vice, or his innovative treatment of some troublesome Nawat phrasing or metaphors.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: The central issue with Townsend's argument is that it focuses on just one phrase instead of looking at the entirety of the Wewetlatoli text and examining it within a philosophical context, as was Purcell's objective.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Languages usually reflect ideas through groups of related words, not just a single term.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: For example, to understand the word justice in the English language, you would want to examine words like justify, just, justification, and jurisprudence.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: You would also want to contextualize phrases such as no justice, no peace, and liberty and justice for all.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Taken as a whole, this enables us to appreciate the concept of justice in its entirety.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Nahuat works in a similar way.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: When we take a step back and use this holistic approach to see the bigger picture, it changes the discussion entirely and it raises larger questions about how we approach translation.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: Good translation isn't just about swapping out one word for another.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's about conveying the meaning of the original authors.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: For example, no one today translates in chochit inquikat as flower and song when talking about Nawa speech.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: We use poetry because it best matches the concept being expressed.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Similarly, in Ak Intepet is almost never simply translated as water and mountain.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, translators use city because it most correctly conveys the intended meaning.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: This logic can also be applied to the pairing of kwali and yetli.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: The real question isn't whether virtue is a proper literal translation, but whether it's the closest English word for the ethical concept that these words express when placed together and utilized within the context of proper social behaviors.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: Some critics might argue that the pairing of Kwali and Yektli in the Wewetlachtoli merely reflects Christian influence, pointing to biblical passages such as Deuteronomy's injunction to do what is right and good in the Lord's sight.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: But even if this were the case, it does not undermine my argument that Kwali and Yektli were understood by multiple authors to express the concept of virtue.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: The colonial evangelist.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: civilization of the Nawas relied on a combination of linguistic innovation and semantic adaptation.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Spanish missionaries and their informants coined new expressions such as Istak Tlashintli or Little White Tortilla to represent the Eucharist, while also repurposing Nahuat terms like Ipanemwani, Tlakatekolot, Miklan, and Tlok Nawake to communicate Christian concepts.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: This demonstrates that they drew upon familiar Nahuat vocabulary to express ideas they believed would resonate with their intended indigenous audiences.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: If the biblical phrase right and good was employed in the Nahuat language, perhaps it was because this concept already carried recognizable ethical significance among the Nawa.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Look, it cuts both ways.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: As I have demonstrated multiple sources use this pairing in a moral sense that is consistent with virtue, regardless of whether it comes from pre-contact Nawa philosophy, missionary translations, or a synthesis of the two.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: To any such critics, I would point out that changing the source of your objection is not a legitimate rebuttal, but a classic example of shifting the goalposts.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: For example, you can't start off by saying well these words were never paired to imply a third meaning and then say okay well they were paired to imply a third meaning but not that meaning and then finally to okay so they were paired to imply this meaning that you're saying but it was a Christian influence and so it doesn't matter anyway.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's not how arguments work.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: My argument is not about the level of Christian influence in the Wewetlahtoli, but the existence of these terms to express the concept of virtue.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Ironically, in her effort to guard the integrity of the Nahuatl language, Townsend's criticism potentially overlooks and disregards the depth and breadth of Nahuat philosophy by insisting that Kwali and Yekli can only exist as separate adjectives, her view flattens an ethical phrase into something more mundane.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: But as we have seen the evidence from Molina, Sagun, Carochi and Claviero, as well as all the related words that exist within the constellation of phrases using Quali in Yetli points to something deeper.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: As demonstrated in the Florentine Codex, the primeros memoriales and the Wewetlahtoli, Nahuatl demonstrates that goodness and rightness often come together as a single ethical idea about building moral character.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: This of course doesn't mean that we should always translate the pairing of Guali and Yekli as virtue.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: After all, translation depends on context.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: Still it shows that using virtue is based on real linguistic and historical evidence, not just a single author's interpretation.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Ultimately this debate isn't just about how we should translate a single phrase it's about whether we choose to treat Nahuatl philosophy as a serious discipline and on its own terms.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: If we choose to only examine individual words, Townsend's argument appears convincing, but if we look at the broader vocabulary at play, an entirely different perspective begins to emerge.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Nahuat had a strong set of words for goodness, rightness, justice, and being virtuous and with good moralsli, yeneli, melawakaiot, and yektliyolo respectively, colonial dictionaries used paired forms of kuali and yektli to express the concept of virtue and the Waywitlahtoli used these ideas to teach young people about moral behavior.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Collectively this evidence suggests that Purcell's translation of Kuali and Yektli isn't only reasonable, but that it highlights an important part of Nawa ethical thinking.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to another episode of Tales from Ostlantis.
• 28:55
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• 29:03
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• 29:24
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