Latest / Libido Lounge / Your Marriage Isn't Broken. You're Just Too Close with Dr. Corey Allan

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Your Marriage Isn't Broken. You're Just Too Close with Dr. Corey Allan · Libido Lounge

0:00
Now we're gonna start getting in trouble, Diane.
0:02
Alright.
0:02
Let's let's have some fun.
0:03
The approach is aimed at how do we just help you communicate better.
0:08
It's just in my opinion a waste of time.
0:10
So if they can tick each other off, they communicate just fine.
0:14
I have a belief that marriage is really designed just to help expose us so that we have
0:18
to grow ourselves up and become better people.
0:21
We overreact to our spouses overreaction.
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Then we're not dealing with what what happened, we're dealing with the reactions rather than
0:27
how about I take the courage of dealing with what's being exposed in me rather than
0:32
attacking what's exposing me.
0:33
And that's that's an I think that's the reality of relationships is the things that drives us
0:37
to to each other are the things that will drive us crazy with each other.
0:42
Hey everybody.
0:43
Welcome back to another episode on the Libido Lounge.
0:46
I'm your host, doctor Diane Mueller.
0:48
And as you just heard in the introduction, I have a great guest with me today, doctor Corey
0:54
Allen, who is a marriage therapist, and we're going to talk about marriage, we're going to
0:59
talk about sex, we're going to talk about communication, we're going to talk about what a
1:03
lot of couples do wrong when approaching marriage therapy, and so many more things.
1:08
So, welcome, doctor Corey.
1:09
It is so great to have you with me today.
1:11
Oh, thank you so much.
1:13
This will be a fun conversation.
1:14
I'm looking forward to
1:15
it.
1:15
Yeah.
1:16
It sure will.
1:17
And tell us a little bit about how we'll get into the juicy stuff in a moment.
1:20
Tell us a little bit about how you got into the work as far as any different niches you could
1:25
have chosen in the world.
1:27
And, you know, working with couples, I think, can be a hard thing because we're dealing with
1:32
three different problems, you could say, at any given time.
1:35
Any challenges for the one partner or the other partner in that group space.
1:40
So I think it is a really interesting niche that way because of the complexity of that.
1:46
So why did you decide to specialize in this?
1:49
What have you seen in your own life or lives of others that really was the inspiration here?
1:55
So coming into the field, I started in the world of teenagers and helping there because I
2:00
was coming from youth ministry, so it just made easy sense.
2:04
And then, the more and more I got into it, the more and more you realize, the issues that kids
2:09
have aren't necessarily just only theirs.
2:11
It's also a system, and it's coming from, mom and dad in some way, shape, or form, if you
2:17
think systemically.
2:19
So then I just started realizing that if I really wanna have impact and and and and go
2:26
deep with people, let's do it on a couple level.
2:29
And then you start discovering there's just not a whole lot out there that really do couples
2:33
therapy well, that that really focus on that well.
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They do a lot of individual within the the couple, and I've I I predominantly just see
2:44
couples, and that's that's the thing I love just because while it's complex, it also is a
2:49
big language.
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And when you start to understand the language that they've got going on, you can really gain
2:54
a lot of ground quickly with people.
2:56
You actually set me up really well for my next question, is personal curiosity as well as what
3:01
I think the audience is going to be interested in as well, which is what do you see, because
3:06
there's obviously other people that do this work, but what do you see as the number one,
3:12
two, or three things, the top things that people in, say, a marriage therapy role do
3:18
wrong?
3:18
You know, what are problems that could come up because of the way that marriage therapy
3:24
sometimes and practitioners are addressing the core issues?
3:28
Okay.
3:28
This now we're gonna start getting in trouble, Diane.
3:31
All right.
3:31
Let's have some fun.
3:32
Well, I've always been a troublemaker, Cory.
3:34
Well, then we're gonna get along just fine.
3:37
So a couple of things that just immediately popped to mind is, I think when when you're
3:44
dealing with a couple issue and the concept or the approach is aimed at how do we just help
3:51
you communicate better, it's just, in my opinion, a waste of time.
3:56
Because it's I've yet to I've been doing this for twenty five years in private practice, and
4:01
I've yet to ever teach a couple how to communicate.
4:05
Because if they can tick each other off, they communicate just fine.
4:09
And most of the time, they don't we don't think of it that way.
4:12
We don't think of it as, oh, what I really need to deal with is what's actually being
4:17
communicated, not how they are doing it.
4:21
And so that's one, because I hear this a lot.
4:23
We just don't understand each other.
4:25
The other therapist took sides and all these different things, and it's that's a common
4:30
thing.
4:31
And then the other thing, that's almost a little bit more on the theory side of things in
4:35
the way I approach it.
4:36
It yeah.
4:37
I I think a lot of times there's this element too that makes a deal even, systemically, and
4:43
then just to and and just how you view marriage.
4:46
I I think a lot of times, people come at it with, idealized what marriage is supposed to
4:52
be, and that it shouldn't be this hard, and we should be, each other's best friend and
5:00
soulmate and lover and all of the complexities that we put on somebody that no one could
5:05
possibly ever fulfill.
5:08
And and so I think you come into it thinking it's the Hollywoodization, hallmarkization of
5:15
of romance because of how it begins.
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And then when you really get into it, it's so much more difficult in some ways.
5:22
And so then it then it just kinda comes into what's the purpose of marriage?
5:26
Because I have a belief that marriage is really designed just to help expose us so that we have
5:30
to grow ourselves up and become better people.
5:33
It's not about, I learn how to meet the needs of my spouse.
5:39
It's more about how do I handle being better and being present and being engaged while still
5:45
maintaining a connection with somebody I care about.
5:49
Let's break these down one at a time.
5:51
So in talking about, like, the what versus how, the first thing you said here, I think that's
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really, you know, really interesting.
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It's not how we're communicating.
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What you're saying is, like, it's what we're communicating.
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And I just finished reading James Sexton's book, If You're in My Office, if you're in my
6:07
office, it's already too late.
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He's a divorce attorney and I just really love his work.
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And one of the things he talks about, one of his chapters is called Hit Send Now and it's
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really about like, it's not about how you're communicating, it's just like people are
6:21
stuffing things inside and we're not saying what needs to be said.
6:25
So, you know, he has this advice around like, yeah, type out that angry email and don't even
6:30
proofread or anything and just, like, send it.
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You know, kind of this idea around, like, just get the communication out and stop worrying
6:38
about the how.
6:39
Is that kind of what you're saying here?
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Can you give us some examples of, like, how this might play out, the the what versus how?
6:46
Yeah.
6:47
It's it's an element of a lot of times there's this there's a major sophistication going on in
6:51
marital communication.
6:53
Right?
6:53
Because you say something, and I can try to dress it up, but I'm also saying something else
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under it.
6:59
That right?
7:00
And and because I got history with each other, we have maps with each other.
7:04
And and so there is an element of how do I get better?
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Because I really believe therapy can be best when I help people learn how to handle the
7:12
message and then communicate a message better while also metaphorically taking a hit for what
7:19
they're saying.
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Because if I say, you know, look, I'm really I'm really frustrated with the conversation
7:24
that we had about how a sexual encounter went bad.
7:29
And then the you know, my wife could go, woah, what?
7:32
What what did I do?
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You know, now she's personalized what I just said rather than, hang on.
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It can easily that that's included in this conversation.
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Right?
7:43
Yeah.
7:43
Of Yeah.
7:44
There's a component and complicity in this, whether it's intentional or not.
7:48
There's it's there.
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But but the nuance needs to be to where how can we both be mature enough to actually have a
7:56
conversation without it completely being personal in the sense that we overreact and we
8:01
steer it and we defend and all these different things rather than, wait, what we're talking
8:06
about is something deeper that could be connecting if we can both handle that better.
8:13
And so it's I mean, I I phrase it this way, Diane, that a lot of our issues that I can
8:18
watch for people is we overreact to our spouse's overreaction.
8:24
Yeah.
8:24
And so, then we're not dealing with what what happened, we're dealing with the reactions, and
8:29
that's where it trips most couples up, because you're not actually dealing with what's really
8:33
present and actually needs to be addressed.
8:36
Yeah.
8:36
What I'm thinking about as you're speaking is our reticulo activating system, or known as the
8:41
RAS of like, well, let's say we were hurt for a long time because of, say, sort of some sort of
8:48
betrayal or trusting or, you know, whatever it was.
8:52
And then our nervous system, our sympathetic nervous system then sets up so that we don't
8:58
want to have that hurt again, so everything gets filtered through what's known as the RAS.
9:02
So it's like anything a spouse says, it's like it goes through this subconscious filter of
9:07
like, I being betrayed?
9:08
Am I losing trust?
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Am I this?
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Am I and then it looks for patterns, and so that this current thing that's happening is
9:14
like not only about the current thing, it's about the fact that the brain subconsciously is
9:20
seeing all of the things that all happened in the past that had bear any level of resemblance
9:26
to what's happening now.
9:28
Right?
9:28
So I think what you're saying is kind of brilliant because it sounds to me like what
9:32
you're saying is, like, part of it is, like, let's stop focusing on the we space for a
9:37
second and take a step back and say, how do we help the individual to actually hear what's
9:43
going on in some ways without hearing it in relationship to all these past things.
9:48
Is that what we're saying here?
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It it it is, but I think there's another layer on top of it because when you most of what gets
9:54
exposed in our in our relationship dynamics, particularly when it starts to get intense, is
10:00
is our fears, our insecurities, our hurts, our capital t traumas, our lowercase t traumas, all
10:07
of them.
10:07
Right?
10:08
They they are going to be exposed.
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And what happens a lot of times is I get caught up in the scenario of, how dare you expose
10:17
this?
10:17
Don't ever do that to me again, rather than, how about I take the courage of dealing with
10:21
what's being exposed in me rather than attacking what's exposing it?
10:25
Because if a if a spouse has a a a indiscretion twenty five years earlier, and now all of a
10:34
sudden, it there's something that comes up, a a memory, a circumstance, a something, and he and
10:40
he feel like both of you feel like you're right back where you were, then what does that say
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about the two people, let alone the relationship?
10:49
You know, how do I how do I actually heal with the hurts?
10:53
Because then it's no longer you need to make this up to me if it's been that long, and we've
10:58
actually done some work.
10:59
Instead, stuff gets like you're describing, patterns in history repeat themselves, but I
11:06
can get better at handling my side of the equation because that's mine.
11:10
That's not my spouse's.
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That's mine to deal with.
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I think there's a natural tendency that we have as humans from, like, an e, like egoic
11:18
protective standpoint, which of course has a serving side to it.
11:23
But I think there's a part where the ego, when we see these things, is almost like when a
11:27
spouse becomes like the mirror of, oh, all the things within us, which it sounds like is even
11:33
kind of what you're defining as the purpose of marriage in some levels, it's like to help
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shine a light on areas that we can grow and improve.
11:41
But I think sometimes when we're shown that, when we're shown that mirror, the subconscious
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driver is to protect the ego.
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So the subconscious driver is to say, well, that's not me, that's you.
11:53
Because if we are actually looking back at ourselves, we actually have to admit that
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there's something that is imperfect and that has been wounded and that needs to heal.
12:02
Right?
12:02
Yep.
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On on both sides.
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Yeah.
12:04
Because typically, it's on both sides of the equation, right, of what the reason that's
12:09
that's the impetus of whatever it is I might be bringing up has validity too.
12:15
So Yeah.
12:16
So it it just too often, couples get caught up in the tyranny of the lowest common
12:20
denominator, which is the one who can handle things the least well, dominates how things are
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handled, and that's just by default.
12:31
So I'm curious then, can you tell, like, when when a couple calls you, or an individual calls
12:37
you, and they're like, okay, we're having this problem, we wanna get it figured out, Can you
12:43
tell in the language they're using early on who's gonna be successful and who's not?
12:51
No.
12:52
I don't know if I can I mean, there's probably, on some extremes, you can tell of just like,
12:57
okay, they're not gonna jive with this framework, with with the way I think of things?
13:03
Because I'm I challenge each person equally in the in the dynamic is is my hope and goal.
13:11
Because, again, I tell couples all the time, I don't work to save marriages or end marriages.
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I am very, very pro marriage.
13:18
I love I love the relationship of it and who we can become because we go places we can't go on
13:23
our own when we're in when we're in a good a good relationship like that.
13:28
But I just tell them I try to help two people be better people, which means I'll try to go
13:33
deal with what's being exposed in each person within the dynamic.
13:37
And so you can tell sometimes when there might be somebody that truly shuts down on like,
13:42
nope.
13:43
This is not this has nothing to do with me.
13:45
You need to fix them.
13:47
Then I'll give it I'll give it some time, but typically, they won't stick with me just
13:52
because they don't they want someone that holds their hand a little different rather than
13:56
reflects back.
13:57
Wait a second.
13:59
What's a culpability here?
14:00
What's a dynamic here?
14:01
What's what's your responsibility in this dynamic here?
14:04
Because we all play it.
14:06
Everybody still chooses what they do, but we all play a a role in a dynamic if it if it
14:11
perpetually keeps going.
14:14
So I'm gonna ask what's probably gonna be a controversial and slightly triggering question
14:18
for some people, which is about what in the scenario where we have infidelity.
14:24
Right?
14:24
What about, like, cheating?
14:25
Because how so if there is one person that was the cheater and the other person that was the,
14:33
you know, the, you could say victim, if you wanna use that word, or just the person that
14:37
experienced the, you know, the intensity of that, are you saying in that scenario, would
14:42
you approach a couple in that scenario and say, hey, you both had a role in this, and if so,
14:48
how would you help that person that feels victimized to actually accept that role?
14:55
Because that feels so tender.
14:57
Well, and absolutely, then here's where wording matters, right?
15:01
Yeah.
15:02
On because then it's not about what role did you guys play in this.
15:06
It's more as we're unpacking the history of what all happened, how they are now, what they
15:12
both want now, are they willing to actually look at a dynamic that was co created within
15:19
their relationship.
15:21
Because when somebody chooses to do anything different that's out of character, out of
15:27
integrity, out of commitment or covenant in in a marriage, that's their choice, Plain and
15:34
simple.
15:35
Right?
15:36
Most of time, when you hear the betrayed spouse go, I can't believe you did that to me.
15:40
That's my open right there.
15:42
It's like, what did doctor Lee did they do to you?
15:44
You weren't involved.
15:46
Right?
15:47
We we need to talk about what they did to themselves here, and that kinda helps put the
15:51
square, you know, the the focus more on the person in that regard, the betrayer.
15:56
And then the betrayed gets a chance to really start to look at, okay, what was the dynamic
16:02
that made it to where there was possibilities of this?
16:05
Because it's in every relationship.
16:07
I mean, Esther Perel's work talks about, you know, happy people cheat, and that's more about
16:11
the person.
16:12
So then you need to start looking at who am I actually married to.
16:16
And so at least I can start to have some more, discernment in how I relate to the person I'm
16:23
with.
16:24
Because in the sense that somebody somebody does have an indiscretion and infidelity, well,
16:30
what they did that to themselves.
16:31
So what do I do in a relationship with someone that's willing to do that to themselves too?
16:36
Because they went against what they said they wouldn't, you know, that that they said they
16:39
weren't at some point in their marriage, most likely.
16:42
So I may be getting into the weeds here, but I am feeling people are wondering this, so I am
16:47
just gonna go into the weeds, which is the person that is betrayed in this scenario, when
16:52
you're teasing this apart and you're saying like, okay, well, they, the betrayer, did not
16:58
actually do anything to you, if I understood your words correctly.
17:03
To me, the first thing that if I was in that betrayed scenario, I would be like, I'd
17:08
instantly be on alert and I'd probably say something like, but they betrayed me.
17:13
Like even though that act wasn't to me, there was still this act of doing like something, it
17:18
was still a betrayal, it feels like that happened to me.
17:22
So how would you respond if, like, that betrayed person was kind of in that scenario?
17:28
Well, that's so then the in that instance, which just makes complete sense, they're
17:31
personalizing what happened within the relationship dynamic.
17:35
And so then you start trying to unpack it and help them start to see, wait, they betrayed the
17:42
relationship that you guys have committed to.
17:46
You you get the hurt from this.
17:48
That is valid.
17:49
That is real.
17:50
That will need to be addressed and handled.
17:53
And how he we'll just keep this this kind of context going there for the sake of our
17:58
conversation.
17:59
How he creates room and and orients towards your hurt will tell you a lot about what you
18:06
have as a potential together.
18:09
Because a lot of times, what we will do, like, start our conversation, right, of I can't
18:13
believe you're bringing this up.
18:14
I'm not that you know, wait.
18:15
Hold on.
18:16
But that's still the hurt that's gotta be dealt with.
18:18
There's still some pain that has to be dealt with.
18:21
But what I have found in the twenty five years of doing this, because I've done a lot of work
18:25
with affairs and and betrayal.
18:29
Most of the time, coupled with the pain and the hurt that goes with the betray being betrayed
18:35
is we gotta deal with the insecurity that was already there too because it just gets
18:39
magnified.
18:41
And Yeah.
18:42
I you can't go into marriage and and not have some levels of insecurity because somebody
18:48
could could choose or tragedy occurs.
18:52
And and I have to just deal with the fact that I can't control another person.
18:57
So how do I and so it's just I try to help level set it some on each side so that they
19:04
both happen at the same time.
19:05
You're dealing with the person that betrayed themselves in some ways, which that needs to be
19:09
dealt with too.
19:09
Esther Perel is the one who's kinda talked at length about that concept, and there's not a
19:14
whole lot of room for that in in most types of therapy I've I've seen.
19:19
But at the same time, you have to talk about what's the damage that's been caused by the
19:24
person that that was the resolute spouse, if you will, that they kept their commitment, they
19:29
kept their covenant.
19:30
And both of those need to be addressed equally in some ways as part of this process.
19:37
Yeah.
19:38
And what I hear you even saying when it's like, oh, it's like the betrayal of the relationship.
19:42
To me, it's like back to kind of the opening thing I said around there's three entities
19:46
really involved that you're working with at any point in time.
19:50
And and I'm wondering what you what you do to help people navigate, whether it's like a a
19:56
fair betrayal or a bazillion types of, you know, betrayal.
19:59
Betrayal can be like the small b's, the big b's.
20:02
It can be like Mhmm.
20:03
You know, you are constantly coming home from late and we late for from work We had this
20:07
agreement.
20:08
That could, you know, be internalized as betrayal.
20:11
So it can be so many things.
20:13
And I think with it, there's usually a sense, at least for the person that is, say, the
20:18
betrayer or the person that was maybe the more overt one that contributed to the disconnect,
20:27
there's a sense of shame and guilt that need to be overcome.
20:32
And shame and guilt are such an interesting topic for me because I've talked about this on
20:36
my YouTube channel, I've got a lot of pushback because of people being like, shame and guilt
20:41
are good, right?
20:42
Like almost this sense of like, well we should be punished and we should punish ourselves for
20:47
these sorts of things.
20:48
I have a very different belief on that.
20:50
I have a belief shame and guilt are necessary sometimes so that we realize that we don't want
20:56
to repeat something, but that continued perpetual vicious cycle of self shaming and
21:02
self guilting, that's what becomes in my professional opinion problematic.
21:07
So what do you I know this is like more than we can cover because this is such an intricate
21:12
thing, but are there like high level ways that you can teach us around working with things
21:18
like shame and guilt and and what you've seen to be effective when especially in a scenario
21:23
where somebody feels so betrayed for one reason or another.
21:27
I want us to take a quick break from podcast to say, did you know that arousal and desire are
21:32
different for women and men?
21:35
Many women think they are no longer interested in sex, for example, because they are waiting
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So often, we think we are sexually incompatible or there's desire discrepancy simply because we
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how to work them to our advantage.
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In addition, communication breakdown, busyness, habits, routines, boredom, lack of novelty, and
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so many things drive people to have passion less or less passionate long term relationships
22:19
than they used to have.
22:21
This is fixable And I show you how to do all of this and more in my hot monogamy society.
22:29
You can find links in the show notes below.
22:32
I hope you will join me to discover and explore how to bring passion back.
22:38
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interested in joining us, there's so much magic that can happen, so much change and improvement
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22:57
Now, let's get back to our episode.
23:00
Yeah.
23:00
I think mean, I'd I'd be curious to hear more of of your frame with the two because I I I
23:06
gotta separate those two things.
23:07
Right?
23:08
Guilt is one of those things that we we feel, I think, when I've gone against something that's
23:12
against something I believe in.
23:14
I I I I have a standard.
23:16
I have a character and integrity, whatever it might be, and I've done something wrong or
23:20
against that, or I haven't held a standard.
23:23
And I can feel guilty for that.
23:25
And I think in that instance, it's a good signal for us of, like, k.
23:30
Wait.
23:31
Am I really in line with who what I wanna be?
23:34
Do I need to adjust this some because it's more honest?
23:38
Or, yeah.
23:39
I'm I am capable of dropping a ball or making a really bad choice because I'm human, and
23:47
there's elements of things I get caught up in.
23:50
And so there's it could be an educator.
23:52
Shame to me is in the framework of not my decisions are bad, I am bad.
23:59
I am a lowly, worthless, no value being, and I have a problem with that because that can
24:08
become this real vicious vortex that it's just a shame cave, right, where you're just
24:15
constantly beating yourself up over decisions rather than, wait, there is an worthiness
24:24
innate in people.
24:27
I mean, you you you work with people on a deep level too.
24:30
You see the resilience and the capability of the human that the most courageous people in
24:36
the world that that are capable of all kinds of things, and we don't tap into that too much.
24:44
I think we often kinda dance around the pain side of stuff rather than, okay, wait.
24:49
What if we actually speak to the best in people?
24:51
Because that's the part they can call out and and and deal with the worst in ourselves.
24:56
Because the worst in us denies it even exists.
25:00
But the best in me can go, yeah.
25:02
I'm capable of that.
25:04
I know that.
25:07
Now, how am I learning from that?
25:08
How am I dealing with that?
25:09
How am I confronting that better?
25:11
How am I crystallizing all of this to just be a better better version of myself?
25:18
Yeah.
25:18
And I do find shame and guilt very similar.
25:20
I look at guilt as being indiscretion or a problem or something that we regret about a
25:28
situation, versus shame as being like, it's like about our character and who we are as a
25:34
whole.
25:34
Right?
25:34
So it's like
25:35
Then we're aligned on that.
25:37
That's that's good.
25:37
Beautiful.
25:38
Yep.
25:38
Absolutely.
25:39
So is there anything then from a standpoint of like because I think when shame comes up when
25:44
we're talking about things like betrayals, I think it can be a sign of like that, you know,
25:48
what we're talking about, and I said like the mirror and that sort of thing, it can be the
25:51
sign of like, wow, like, there is something deep that I actually need to uncover and work
25:59
with and heal because that's not only affecting me, but I'm sure it's helping, you know, like
26:03
impacting the relationships in that scenario.
26:06
Do you find that it's like when people have those deep rooted shames around things, like do
26:12
you find it's like useful or necessary to to figure out, like, where it comes from, kind of,
26:18
like, the core of it in order to recover from it?
26:21
Or do you feel like it can be recovered, even if that is not, you know, not discovered?
26:28
I think you you can go one of two.
26:31
You can go either way in a lot of instances.
26:34
The the approach I use is is a lot more in real time in the present moment.
26:40
Let's let's deal with things, but we'll we'll we'll we'll kinda source it back to where it
26:47
came from in some ways because it that's helpful.
26:50
If if I don't spend a lot of time on that.
26:52
It sometimes, it just naturally will go there.
26:55
I mean, a client is curious, so let's go there.
26:57
You know, we'll we'll keep looking.
26:59
But a lot of times, whatever the whatever it is that's kind of fueling that shame is part of,
27:04
back to our conversation earlier, part of a culpability of a relationship dynamic.
27:09
Right?
27:11
And so what's what's always fascinating to me is that relationship at its best in that in
27:16
this in this scenario, the spouse probably was the person the person that was married to was
27:24
was probably speaking towards shoring up and and and boosting that shame of of, like, let's
27:31
because they don't see you that way.
27:33
You know?
27:34
We don't.
27:34
Our spouses often don't see us the way we see ourselves.
27:38
Yeah.
27:38
And so Very true.
27:40
And I won't take I won't take at face value what they're saying.
27:44
I don't believe what they believe about me, which k.
27:47
What's that about me?
27:48
How do I actually absorb the truth of that?
27:51
Not get overconfident or ego driven with it, but actually see it as, k.
27:56
Maybe I'm missing something.
27:57
Maybe there is some value here that I need to learn to incorporate in myself.
28:01
That's where the positive of marriage can really help, on the development of an
28:05
individual.
28:07
But at the same time, when there's these negative and painful things that happen, the
28:11
relationship can be really helpful because it exposed some of them, and I can actually deal
28:15
with it better.
28:16
Because it's a completely different thing that when there's been a betrayal and, man, I've had
28:22
I've had one of the patterns I see a lot is is couples that have come in after multiple
28:27
betrayals.
28:28
And so then they're finally like, how do I keep this from happening again?
28:31
So, well, obviously, you can't because let's let's look at what's reality.
28:35
But the manner in which you address your own self within that context determines the
28:42
likelihood of it happening again or not
28:44
Yeah.
28:45
In some ways.
28:46
So I understand.
28:46
There's a lot more risk of I don't I don't even have to say this is the last time.
28:52
I just live this is the last time, you know, because those big moves we make in our lives
28:57
are rarely ever high volume, high emotion.
29:02
They're real steady, solid person to be met with seriously because I've handled myself
29:12
better rather than trying to handle the system.
29:16
I wanna move this conversation into talking about some of the theme of your book that's
29:21
coming up, Go First.
29:23
And here in my mind, when I hear that and I what you're saying, like one of the things I
29:28
think about is like the therapeutic concept of externalized versus internalized locus of
29:33
control.
29:34
Meaning like, we all want, as humans, there's a natural desire to have a level of control over
29:41
our lives, and a lot of times what people do, I think that can lead to so much just unrest,
29:47
right, uneasiness is when instead of, like, realizing the control we have over situations
29:53
so I'm thinking about this in, like, exact example of like, okay, well, I'm worried this
29:57
is gonna happen again.
29:59
So it's like differentiating between internal locus of control where it's like, what can I
30:05
control in this versus externalized around trying to like maybe manipulate everything in
30:10
our spouse's schedule and being hyperactive around seeing their phone and their calendar
30:14
and doing all these things, right, that I think we do that as humans to try to gain some self
30:20
control, sense of control, but it backfires?
30:23
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Let's talk about, okay, go first.
31:58
Are you, like, how do you resonate with what I've said with, like, the external versus
32:02
internal locus of control?
32:03
Is that some of what we're talking about here?
32:05
Can you expand
32:06
on that?
32:07
Yeah.
32:08
One of the truisms I have is the phrase that those that can't control themselves will seek
32:12
to control everything around them.
32:15
Yeah.
32:15
That's perfect.
32:16
And it's a And very, very common phenomenon, and it usually happens when I feel the most out
32:21
of control, is I will will focus on everything, because I'm just and it's a self protection.
32:28
It's a it's a it's a self idealizing in a way of here this is the way I want my life to be
32:35
that you know, so I spend all this energy on things around me.
32:39
But what's so interesting about that, like you're describing, is it rarely ever works well
32:43
because I find up I wind up trying to control other people, which most of us as human beings,
32:48
we don't wanna be controlled.
32:49
And so, you know, we get caught up in marriage with that I love you, but don't tell me what to
32:53
do scenario.
32:54
And so, I think it's I'm right in line with it.
32:59
And to the way it plays out is realizing, okay.
33:03
How do I just handle what I've committed to within the context?
33:06
You made a comment earlier.
33:07
Let's build off of this of what if a spouse is chronically late.
33:13
Right?
33:13
Because that's a common thing.
33:14
That's happened in my marriage.
33:16
My my wife and I switched roles from I used to be the one who was always late, and now she is.
33:21
But some of it's her job because fires come up right at the end of the day because she's on
33:25
the front lines in the tax world.
33:27
So when you're dealing with people, you know, things happen, and she cares and wants to be
33:32
in, you know, of service for people.
33:34
But we have a value of we wanna have dinner as a family at the table as much as we possibly
33:39
could when our kids were younger.
33:40
Now they're in college and and out.
33:42
But, that was a value of ours that we both agreed on.
33:45
She had it higher than I did, but we still both agree on the the goal.
33:50
And so she had a time where she was gonna be, I told I asked her what time because I had dinner
33:54
ready.
33:54
You know, we're working on it, and she gave me the time.
33:57
I'm like, okay.
33:58
Well, we'll see you then.
33:59
And then I never heard anything to change it.
34:01
And so when she came walking in, we were finishing up dinner, and she was devastated
34:06
when she walked in the door.
34:07
And this is something that's been building up for a while.
34:09
Right?
34:09
We'd had this kind of back and forth conversation.
34:11
She's like, I thought I thought we were I was like, we were.
34:14
You said you'd be home at 05:20.
34:16
That's when things were ready.
34:17
I mean, the food's here for you, baby, but we just finished.
34:20
And and it it but it was just this whole, all I can do is handle me in that instance.
34:25
And I realize it's gonna have an impact, and I realize it's gonna hurt, but when I live what I
34:31
agree and I live what value I have too, as as not as not as primary, but as as an important
34:38
thing as well as the relationship, things can start to sort themselves out a little
34:43
differently.
34:45
What you're making me think of in this example is the idea that in marriage or in long term
34:53
relationships, we're constantly renegotiating, I think, our our agreements to each other.
34:58
And I think Mhmm.
34:59
I think this doesn't get talked about enough because oftentimes people go into marriages or
35:04
long term commitments and either they don't really talk about agreements at all other than
35:09
like, hey, don't have sex with somebody else.
35:12
You know, either they don't get talked about and it's frequent that these agreements just
35:15
kinda come up because of time and expectation and habits, or they do get talked about and,
35:22
you know, in instances like your like this example with your wife, and then something
35:26
happens and maybe there's a need for a new agreement.
35:30
So and I see this a lot too in, like, the the concept even of, like, the betrayal around,
35:35
okay.
35:35
Well, anytime there's a betrayal, there's fundamentally a breakdown in the agreement.
35:39
And so in many ways, in building up the relationship after that, it's almost like
35:45
rebuilding in in some ways a different relationship because it probably needs to have
35:50
an updated set of rules and agreements.
35:52
How how much do you, like, work with your clients in this regard around, like, bringing
35:57
awareness to the agreements and renegotiating them?
36:00
Is it is it a huge part of what you do?
36:02
Is do you find that valuable for people?
36:04
I think it's valuable.
36:05
It's a different terminology or slightly different frame than I use.
36:09
It's it's going to be more of, okay, when you look at who you are and how you've been
36:14
relating, what do you need to update for you better as well as the relationship?
36:22
So it's it's gonna be similar, just kind of a semantic of a different language.
36:26
Yeah.
36:27
But it's it to me, it's more about how am I being more forthcoming with what's going on
36:32
with me in real time, actually showing myself better in real time?
36:36
Because if one of the biggest things about any kind of infidelity work with with couples and
36:41
affair work with couples is how do you deal with going forward together?
36:46
Because you already know what each of you are capable of in that regard.
36:50
You already know what the dynamic is.
36:52
It's already proven out, so it's not just like as this unknown fear.
36:56
There's a reality associated with it as well as all the other things that come up with it.
37:02
But it's it's being better at, you know, like, a couple you work with.
37:06
I'm assuming you've had similar where he he travels all the time, and that's where the
37:10
that's where the betrayal happened.
37:12
And now he took he took his time off.
37:15
This happens a lot, actually, with me.
37:16
He took he takes some serious time from traveling away because he really does value his
37:20
marriage, and he wants to he wants to have a good marriage.
37:23
But then, inevitably, because of the job, he's gonna have to keep traveling or change jobs,
37:28
which that's a big that's a huge choice that each has to face.
37:32
But instead of her locking things down when he travels, how is she just a lot cleaner about,
37:38
k, you need to understand the real fears I've got here.
37:41
And it's not emotion laden reaction, although that's there.
37:45
It's just, hey, I have real fears.
37:48
How can we collaborate with this?
37:52
Not that you're trying to make me feel safe, but that I feel but that I'm heard, that I'm
37:57
under you know, that that you see me and where I am in this dilemma.
38:03
Because that's a different weight for him to carry, rather than she's locking things down,
38:09
she's constantly checking, because then we're feeling checked on all the time.
38:12
You know, we're feeling under a microscope, which there's an element of that that's
38:15
probably good.
38:16
But but there's also in long term, it won't be.
38:20
And so you start acting and learning those muscles faster because it's really just about
38:25
how do I control myself as I relate to this dynamic because I've gotta update things in me
38:32
and us now.
38:34
Yeah.
38:35
Yeah.
38:35
Makes a lot of sense.
38:36
I think there's a lot with the idea of losing the freedom, right?
38:40
Anytime anybody feels there's a sense of freedom loss, like, usually that backfires.
38:45
Nobody wants to be checked on all the time.
38:48
What else do you mean when you're like, the title of your book is Go First, that's coming
38:52
out soon.
38:53
What else do you is there anything else you conceptually mean by that that we haven't said
38:57
today around what that actually means and why you chose that as a title?
39:02
Well, it's it's really about because the whole the whole focus of it is about how do I create
39:07
better intimacy and connection in my marriage?
39:11
How do I have a better life?
39:13
How do I have better sex?
39:15
How do I have better conversations?
39:16
How do I have better emotional connection?
39:18
All of it.
39:19
And most often I always have this this pretty vivid picture.
39:22
Most often, it's like we both wanna go swimming, but we're both sitting on the side of
39:28
the pool with our feet dangling in the pool because I want them to jump in first because I
39:32
don't wanna swim alone.
39:33
And marriage on marriage terms, rarely get a a good environment where I know it's going to be
39:42
received well to say something that really is deep and meaningful to me.
39:46
Yeah.
39:47
Right?
39:47
Because it's very likely I may say something that's like, I really wanna go swimming.
39:51
Well, that means I just need to jump in and swim.
39:53
Yeah.
39:54
Yeah.
39:54
Yeah.
39:54
Then I see if I got a spouse that'll do it with me or not.
39:57
And that doesn't mean if they don't this one time, they won't ever.
40:01
It just means at that point, they won't.
40:02
And so it's just trying to reframe the concept of this is not about getting acceptance before
40:10
I've even put myself out there.
40:12
This is about self self acceptance and self exposure and confronting, and then dealing with
40:19
what happens.
40:20
Because too often, it's to say, I wanna tell you what I think, but don't get mad.
40:24
Yeah.
40:24
Well, I don't get the choice of saying I don't get mad.
40:26
You get to do whatever you choose with what I say.
40:29
Yeah.
40:30
I can frame it as well as possible, but even then, it can still have some hurt in it and
40:36
some pain associated with it because it's exposing.
40:39
So the whole concept is just really about if if I want a better life and a better marriage on
40:46
all contexts, not just marriage, but family, everything.
40:49
I gotta go first, and then I gotta deal with what comes back because that's more real rather
40:54
than I don't know, and I'm massaging and manipulating trying to make it rather than what
41:01
if I just see?
41:03
So I'm gonna ask you my final questions today, and then I know we're running out of time here,
41:08
is maybe a hard one to answer.
41:11
But what it is is if you're to boil down everything that you've seen to be the most
41:19
common thing that couples and or individuals do wrong that causes the greatest amount of
41:27
connection loss, And I know that's very difficult to reduce it down to one thing.
41:33
Oh, no.
41:34
I got an answer for this one.
41:35
Perfect.
41:36
I got an answer for this one.
41:37
Yeah.
41:38
Not hard.
41:38
Most all the time, when I'm working with a couple, I will ask them at some point, do you
41:45
think that the source of your problems are because you guys are too close to each other or
41:50
too far apart from each other?
41:53
And almost without fail, everybody says we're too far apart.
41:58
And what I will propose is, nope.
42:00
You're too close to each other.
42:02
You are too smothering of each other.
42:04
There's not room for each of you to be who you are because it gets reacted to so you adjust,
42:12
rather than, how about I handle a reaction better?
42:16
And it's not that I'm gonna be flippant and bullying about it, but it's just realizing, I
42:22
think most of us have this fusion brain ideal of where we will be of one mind.
42:27
But if I actually attain that with my wife, we would have the most boring relationship there
42:32
is.
42:33
I don't wanna be married to myself.
42:37
Me and Maria.
42:38
Oh, that's that's a I need somebody that's got some edge and difference to them.
42:42
Yeah.
42:42
And and so it's, how do I have room for her to be her and me to be me?
42:49
That's a great marriage then.
42:50
That there's room for both of us, and then we both just recover better.
42:53
So that's that's the way I think.
42:55
If you boil everything down, I think most couples actually are too close to each other
42:59
because we overreact and take things personal that aren't.
43:02
Yeah.
43:02
And it's so easy when we're too close to start to nitpick and see all those things that nobody
43:08
noticed at the beginning of the relationship and or or the things that we love the most
43:13
about our partner at the beginning of the relationship starts to oftentimes be the thing
43:17
that drives us, I think, the most nuts when we're too close.
43:21
And having that space, Yeah. I
43:22
I think, allows us to
43:24
And that's that's an I think that's the reality of relationships, is the things that draws us
43:28
to to each other are the things that will drive us crazy with each other.
43:32
And Exactly.
43:33
That's that's relationship doing what it's supposed to do.
43:35
Yeah.
43:37
I appreciate that frame too.
43:39
It's like, I think, a really good thing for people to look at that and be like, this
43:42
doesn't mean that something's wrong.
43:44
This is just like a normal thing around like, this is like you said, the relationship's doing
43:48
what it's supposed to do.
43:49
So you're actually on track, but maybe take a little space and don't be completely enmeshed
43:53
the way that so many people are.
43:55
Exactly.
43:57
Perfect.
43:57
So I wanna make sure that people know about your free marriage course.
44:03
I wanna make sure that we let them know about your sex marriage radio podcast, and also
44:08
anything else that you would like people to know about as far as working with you and your
44:13
book and those sorts of things.
44:15
So can you tell us about
44:16
yourself?
44:16
Absolutely.
44:19
So I'm the host, cohost with my wife of Sexy Marriage Radio, which is a podcast that's been
44:24
going for fourteen and a half years now.
44:28
So it's been a fabulous ride, and we just talk about all things marriage.
44:33
We use sex as the hook to to we talk about everything in regards to sex as far as there's
44:39
no topic off limits.
44:40
We will talk about it.
44:42
But it's usually more steered towards ultimately, how do I live a better life?
44:46
How do I have a better connection?
44:47
How do I be a better person?
44:49
It's kinda where we land almost every episode.
44:52
Smr.fm is my online home, so that's where everything can find all the episodes.
44:58
There's a community involved.
45:00
That's where the course takes place, which is just the healthy marriage course, and it's just
45:05
six sessions, pretty pretty short, snippets of just here's some dynamics because this is what
45:11
I love talking about is dynamics that are happening.
45:14
If you can frame things, we can be better at how we address it.
45:17
And you can get that at smr.fm/ go first.
45:21
So if you just follow that URL, it'll goes it'll take you straight there.
45:25
You just sign up for free.
45:26
It's yours.
45:28
And then if you want to work with me, smr.fm, there's a tab that takes you to my website for,
45:34
counseling, and I work virtually and in person here in the Metroplex Of Of Dallas.
45:39
And so I work for people all over the world because of the world the beauty of technology.
45:44
But if you live in the Dallas area, that I have an in person office as well.
45:49
Amazing.
45:50
And we will, of course, have all of that in the show notes, everybody.
45:53
So you'll have clickable links down below to get Corey's resources, learn how to work with
45:58
him, start listening to his podcast, and, check out his book that will be out very soon.
46:04
So I wanna thank everybody for listening.
46:07
Please do make sure you hit that subscribe button so you don't miss future episodes from
46:10
us.
46:11
And thank you so much, Corey, for being with me today.
46:14
You're welcome.
46:15
This has been great.
46:16
It's been amazing.
46:17
Alright, everybody.
46:18
Doctor.
46:18
Diane signing off.
46:19
I'll see you
46:20
all
46:20
next time.
46:23
Thank you for listening to the Libido Lounge.
46:26
Please don't keep me a secret.
46:27
Please share this with your friends.
46:29
You can find me on YouTube, on Instagram, as well as how to work with me at mylibidodoc.com.