Latest / The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten / Younger Working Husbands Are Condescended To The Way Stay At Home Moms Used To Be

Transcript

Younger Working Husbands Are Condescended To The Way Stay At Home Moms Used To Be · The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten

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  Hi everybody and welcome to the Doctor Psych Mom Show.
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  Today I'm going to be talking about this most interesting
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  phenomenon that I've noticed over the past few years,
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  particularly since COVID, where primary breadwinning husbands
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  and the younger, more liberal couples that I work with are
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  condescended to by the wife in pretty much a mirror image of
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  the way that stay at home moms used to be condescended to by
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  their breadwinning husbands. So what I mean by that is that
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  in couples where the woman's job is staying at home and taking
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  care of the kids, which is certainly something I respect.
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  I've said numerous times that I used to work only 10 hours a
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  week when the kids were before they were school age 1015 hours.
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  And you know, so mostly I was home and it was super hard, you
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  know, to be home with three little kids.
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  And so I definitely think that's a hard job.
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  However, you know, it is also a hard job to work.
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  So neither one should really be condescended to and I will
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  discuss how this, how this trend plays out in the couples I see
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  after I tell you to subscribe because most recent subscriber
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  episode was on how healthy couples age well, and this one
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  in fact was. I was all lined up for this to
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  be a subscriber, but I figured I would not have it be a
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  subscriber episode because, you know, not everybody listens to
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  those. And I feel like this is kind of
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  an important one because when this came up in my secret
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  Facebook group, this idea and I did a video about this, a lot of
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  guys felt very, very validated, particularly on TikTok, which is
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  where the younger guys are. So since it's made a lot of
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  people feel better about their situation and not as not as
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  crazy for being in the situation, I figured I would
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  just keep it as a non subscriber 1 and the next one will be
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  subscriber whatever I choose to make that one at the time.
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  So anyway, So what am I really seeing?
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  So this is people that are in their late 30s or younger and
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  the woman is at home with the kids or maybe she works part
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  time, but mostly she's home and the guy has the job that
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  supports the family and basically it.
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  So there's this term in the 70s, the 2nd shift, it was worked by
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  Arlie Hoth child and talked about how when women were
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  working outside the home, they came home and they had to do the
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  2nd shift, which was all the housework and childcare.
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  So the guy basically sat down and rested from his job.
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  But in dual income couples they saw that more of the 2nd shift
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  which means the housework and childcare, you know that is
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  necessary after you pick up from daycare etcetera was done by the
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  women. Well shit has shifted man,
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  because I see exactly the inverse and this is with women
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  who are stay at home moms. So this is not dual career
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  couples. Now what do I see in dual career
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  couples? I see that they pretty much
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  split everything. Sometimes I see that the guy
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  does more, sometimes I see that the woman does more.
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  Mostly if it's a dual full time dual career couple where they're
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  making someone near the same money, got somewhat the same
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  schedule, then that pretty much follows through and they kind of
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  you know divide most things. I'm not talking about that here.
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  What I'm talking about the situation where the woman is
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  home or she works much less than the guy.
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  Now that used to be that men in this situation where they were
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  the primary breadwinner, condescended to the woman and
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  they would say things like what the hell is she doing all the
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  time? And this is not a real job.
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  Staying at home is not children must be nice to sit at home and
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  not have to worry about money, blah blah blah.
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  And that's very condescending. And there are still guys, of
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  course, that say things like this, you know, and they very
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  much shouldn't because they're being assholes.
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  But also, you know, they're women should not be assholes
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  too, right? So that is a basic tenet of my
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  philosophy is that nobody should be an asshole, not men or women.
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  And so now I see a lot of these younger couples in their, you
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  know, late 30s or earlier. That or younger where she's at
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  home, he goes out to work. That's considered basically
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  nobody talks about that. He earns the money because
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  that's considered kind of like almost, I don't know, tacky or
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  something like saying that he makes the money.
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  It's just not even done. Somehow they have money.
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  Some possibly related to that. He works, you know, but never
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  actually stated and certainly not more than very cursory, very
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  cursory statement that that he provides the money, but
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  basically he comes home and so he does basically the 2nd shift.
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  So she's out. She doesn't do anything after
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  that or she does very little or you know, they split everything.
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  But when they split everything, she does higher level macro
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  emotional labor stuff. Now what can that mean?
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  That can mean everything from scrolling Instagram to look at
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  parenting tips to shopping for kids clothes online, to figuring
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  out what the summer camp is going to be, you know, eight
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  months in advance to talking to his mother.
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  Because, you know, that's emotional labour too, because
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  that's his mother, even though she likes talking to his mother.
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  You know it. It could be like anything.
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  I'm not saying every woman likes talking to their mother-in-law.
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  I'm talking about even a situation where she likes to
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  talk to her mother, to his mother.
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  Somehow this is emotional labour because she's maintaining the
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  social ties with his family or something to that extent.
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  So what we end up in is a situation where he has to come
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  to all of the pediatrician appointments because otherwise
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  he's not an involved dad. He has to come to all the
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  extracurriculars because otherwise he's not an involved
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  dad. He has to do basically
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  everything, even though he also has to work.
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  So I first saw this in COVID where the guy was trying to do a
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  job from home, but also kind of had to do everything in the home
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  also, which is impossible, Can't do those two things at once.
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  But anyway, now is expected to to take off constantly from
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  work. It is certainly a different
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  generation. So people are more on board with
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  giving lots of you know flex time and this that and the
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  other. But I don't know, it's like kind
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  of how many people do we need to take a child to a pediatrician
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  appointment? How many people do we need to go
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  to every extracurricular. So there's a lot more stuff
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  under the rubric of the man being involved, but in reality
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  is kind of, you know, forgotten that he's also trying to work.
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  Now. I see a lot of shift in this
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  when women go back to work. Some women have outright said so
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  As the kids get older they might go back to work and then they
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  say basically oh shit, I see kind of what what he meant.
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  This is really hard. I'm really tired.
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  I can't text all day, I can't pick up the phone.
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  It's really stressful to reschedule stuff for the kids
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  appointments, so there can be a a come to Jesus moment at that
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  point for a lot of women. When they go back to work,
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  however, we're not talking about women that have already had some
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  sort of epiphany. What I'm talking about is the
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  younger guys that get kind of shafted because they're expected
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  to work but also not work. And what else is not on the
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  docket anymore? Sex.
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  So I've talked about this a lot with the marital coercion
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  rhetoric. So and I had a whole podcast
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  called, like when your relatively young wife wants to
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  be in a sexless marriage or thinks you should be OK being in
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  a sexless marriage. So in a lot of these couples
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  where the guy is doing the 2nd shift, he's also not getting
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  late. And while I know no healthy man,
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  truly that says something like I worked all day, so I deserve a
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  blowjob. Like that's like like a joke.
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  Like I do. So I have zero clients that
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  would say that. And if any guy says that he's an
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  asshole, you know, But the reality is that sex used to be
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  part of the marital contract and now it's not.
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  So also he can't do anything else that isn't work because his
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  outside of the house time is taken up by, you know, work.
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  So. So he ends up where he has like
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  kind of no hobbies. And I wrote a whole post about
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  this Stop caring so Much What Your Wife thinks Part 2.
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  Why Men Can Have a life outside of work.
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  So there ends up being a lot of younger guys that are in like
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  world's worst situation. They can't get laid because they
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  can never have sex their wife doesn't want to have.
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  Their wife can never really experience spontaneous desire
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  anymore because she is not in the honeymoon phase.
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  And so her life philosophy is that she shouldn't do anything
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  she doesn't want to do, especially in the sexual domain.
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  And that is basically the religion of the couple.
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  So of course, if she has no spontaneous desire, then they
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  basically never have sex. And he's not allowed to ask for
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  sex because, again, their entire philosophy was that sex is
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  something that we just do when we are joyfully, you know, move
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  to do so. And they refuse any idea about
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  spontaneous desire in many cases because it's so antithetical to
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  this philosophy of that we have sex only when the spirit moves
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  us. And that is what is good, you
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  know, untrue. So basically, they're not
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  getting laid, They're not allowed to have hobbies, they're
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  not allowed to have friends, and they're doing basically a lot of
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  the shit work in the house. So while she's doing the
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  emotional labor of figuring out what Christmas cards to to send
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  out, he's doing bedtime and bath time.
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  So, and I see this a lot, especially especially when
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  there's like, you know, like other issues going on.
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  So it's not like the woman in this situation is is happy, like
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  don't. Like there's there's no world in
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  which she's like, oh haha, like I feel great about myself.
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  You know, I'm just gonna make him be my bitch.
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  Like, that is just not true and it's not real.
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  What is real is that she's usually suffering from anxiety
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  or depression and she feels completely overwhelmed.
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  She really does feel like the Christmas cards are very
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  important or that the shopping for the kids clothes or like
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  whatever the hell or talking to his mom or whatever is very
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  important and that's necessary and she has to be this perfect
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  stay at home mom and she feels like super super tired and
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  stressed and and just that loose ends like all the time because
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  she has untreated depression anxiety and there's you know
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  being a stay at home mom is not easy you do do not.
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  It's a thankless job so but but the answer cannot be to make the
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  man's life equivalently miserable like that cannot be
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  that that can't be right either right.
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  I mean it. It should be trying to make both
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  people's lives less miserable. So unfortunately what happens is
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  that her misery makes him miserable too.
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  And does this happen to all men? No.
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  But who's more likely to have this happen?
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  This is a sociological main effect, a trend that I see, but
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  obviously a workhorse man that has that sort of persona of
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  being a workhorse, which I discussed in numerous posts and
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  podcasts. A man that derives his self
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  worth from what he can give, do and provide versus from what he
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  internally is. A man with lower self esteem is
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  going to end up more in this situation where basically they
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  they feel that they are somehow, Despite that it earns the money
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  that keeps everybody alive, they're somehow betraying her by
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  going out every day to work. And then when they get home,
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  what they have to do is somehow make up for it, for for this
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  betrayal, by basically doing literally everything with the
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  children and encouraging her to go exercise or go get her nails
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  done, or this or that or the other.
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  Because her work, this emotional work, this mental low, the
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  mental load is so, so harrowing and horrible that of course she
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  needs a respite from it. With nobody remembering that
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  Carrie, having a full time job is also quite a big mental load
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  as well, which is a part that like, is not in the rhetoric.
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  Yet in society having a job, this used to be a given.
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  So it's crazy that's gotten to a place where this would be like,
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  weird to say, but having a job is hard and there's a lot of
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  mental load and you don't just think about it when you're at
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  work. So the whole time that he's at
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  home, he's also thinking, I got to get the e-mail from my boss
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  and I got to do this for that. And I got to have this project
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  got to be in and I can't be late to this meeting or this meeting
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  and I can't do this. And this next week I have to
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  take off twice. I have to take off for this and
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  I have to take off for that. So then how am I going to do
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  that? And then also, she doesn't want
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  me working at night. So then how do I do this or
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  that? And all that shit is happening
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  in in with a backdrop of no physical intimacy.
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  So it is kind of no wonder that the men in these situations end
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  up feeling pretty depressed and anxious as well, right?
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  And nobody's happy. So it's not like the woman is
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  happy. It's not like this ends up
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  making her happy either, because obviously you know the hedonic
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  treadmill, right? So once you get used to
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  something, then you get used to something.
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  So if he starts cooking dinner every night and doing bedtime
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  and bath time every night and taking all the kids to their
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  appointment and this and that, that just becomes the new
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  normal. And if she's depressed and
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  anxious, then she finds some other shit that goes in there.
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  Especially if she's anxious, she's depressed.
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  She's just going to lay around on her phone and that's going to
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  be to consider recharging. And so it's very codependent,
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  these relationships, because I'll talk to the guy and I'll be
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  like, well, what does she do? Well, you do this, that, the
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  other and this and that. After work.
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  He's like, well, she scrolls on her phone.
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  And I mean, it's like, yeah, I'm like, well, do you mention that?
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  Do you say anything? Oh, no, no, no.
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  She needs to recharge after her day with the kids.
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  Well, I mean, didn't you have a day?
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  Didn't you work as well? Yeah.
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  But The thing is, I didn't see the kids, so I got to go to
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  work. I got to come home.
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  I said, when do you recharge? Oh, I don't recharge.
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  I don't need to recharge, though.
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  So she's this highly sensitive person.
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  You wrote about that, Right. She's a highly sensitive person.
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  So she needs to recharge. Like, well, you know, you are a
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  person, though. I mean, maybe not a highly
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  sensitive person, but you are a person.
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  So when do you get to do anything you like to do?
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  Oh, you know. Well, it's fine.
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  This is a tough stage and meanwhile this is somebody who's
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  like probably developing a drinking problem is like about
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  to you know, like lose his mind, you know, like really really an
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  unhappy person at a deep level feels like he's doing a shit job
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  at work constantly financially anxious, you know and in in in
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  many, many, many cases you know this is, this starts right with
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  the first baby and and it gets worse with every subsequent
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  baby. And so you end up with a couple
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  of babies, 2-3 babies, and it's like the couple is just really
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  running Co, running a childcare business, but there is no
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  expectation of intimacy literally at all.
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  She basically says that she is never in the mood and it's
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  because she has so much to do. There is no amount that he can
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  do that will give her less to do, it seems because they are
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  just in that pattern now. Is this all younger couples?
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  Certainly not. Do I still see many people who
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  are still actively, you know, appreciate the people that that
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  appreciate each other and that say that they depend on each
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  other. You know, yes, certainly guys
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  that are happy that the woman is watching the kids at home and
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  he's working and then when he comes home, you know they split
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  things and then on the weekends they split things and both of
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  them get to socialize and both of them get to have, you know
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  both of them may get to exercise and and they still have sex.
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  Yes. You know, especially once I'm
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  done working with them, I see those people, but I see them in
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  the wild, you know, a lot as well.
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  But there is this new trend and it is something to look out for
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  and to, you know, work on in therapy if this is you.
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  Where the the same way as women didn't used to matter as they
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  did all this invisible labour. The man is doing invisible
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  labor, except his labor is literally getting a paycheck.
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  It's still somehow invisible because we're not allowed to
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  talk about. It's like the emperors new
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  clothes. It's like how do we pay for the
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  clothes that you're buying online, you know, for the kids.
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  Oh well, you know, I still have some money from when I used to
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  work. Yeah.
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  But also also like he brings up a paycheck every two weeks.
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  Correct. I mean you know, and it's like
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  that's considered like very anti feminist or something to like
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  say that he's the primary earner.
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  However, I never seen it be very anti feminist once she starts
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  working. Because when she starts working,
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  then she is also making money too.
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  And then she feels like, oh shit, do I really want to spend
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  X on Yi don't know because X means however many hours of
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  work. So then it changes very quickly
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  and there really are higher rates of depression.
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  You know that I see in stay at home moms because it is truly a
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  thankless task. But I do not think that the the
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  the solution is making men feel worse and making them feel like
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  they can never do enough. And that's somehow they got to
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  apologize for for being out during the day and then make up
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  for it with them doing the only second shift.
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  It doesn't make sense for it to. The pendulum needs to not swing
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  180 degrees because it wasn't good when women just did the 2nd
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  shift by themselves. So then how would it be good for
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  men to do that by themselves? It doesn't make any sense.
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  So if you are a man in this situation, it's likely that you
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  have some self esteem issues, you know, and it it is also true
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  that there are some men that get into this situation and they are
• 17:16
  very openly miserable about it. But so So some men are just like
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  no, no, it's fine, it's fine. But then they're like secretly,
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  like feel extraordinarily stressed, exhausted, unhealthy,
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  etcetera. There are other men that are
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  very angry about it, but like, they they were used to being in
• 17:30
  a dysfunctional home and their family of origin.
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  People are angry all the time at each other.
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  So they're just in this very codependent angry thing.
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  So they will. Those are the ones who'll say,
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  what the fuck you doing, You're just scrolling on your phone
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  like while I'm doing this, that and the other and the woman will
• 17:44
  be like, I have to recharge because I this is so difficult
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  all day and why are you such an asshole to me?
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  And he's like, I'm not an asshole to you.
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  Who do you think provides in this house, right.
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  But yet he's still doing. He's still enabling her
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  depressive or anxious behavior. And the fact that the division
• 18:00
  of Labor is very, very screwed, you know, I mean, it's it's kind
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  of egregiously imbalanced in the exact same way as it used to be
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  for women in most cases. So the answer is not to make men
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  suffer the way that women used to suffer.
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  That can't be right. You know, I mean, that's not
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  ethical, that's not logical. So if if you feel that this is
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  an interesting issue and something that you want to bring
• 18:24
  up in your own counselling, then you should.
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  You know any, any person in this situation, if you recognize this
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  dynamic, this is not a sustainable dynamic for the guy
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  to not be able to ever rest because he's always apologizing
• 18:39
  for being gone, even though he has to be gone, it it's just not
• 18:43
  a sustainable, it's not a sustainable solution.
• 18:45
  All right, well, I will talk to everybody soon.
• 18:48
  I hope that you enjoyed this and have a great day guys.