Latest / Wedding Pros who are ready to grow - with Becca Pountney / How to handle tricky wedding client relationships with Jen Trotter

Transcript

How to handle tricky wedding client relationships with Jen Trotter · Wedding Pros who are ready to grow - with Becca Pountney

0:00
Jen: I think the mistake that I see people make and keep in mind just all of
0:04
these years, I've seen a lot of things happen is that people just wake up one
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day and they're like, Oh, I'm gonna have a bridal beauty team and all of a sudden
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they're, you know, going from zero to 150 weddings and no staff to, you know,
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20 steps, like, don't go that fast.
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I think that in most cases, that is going to be a huge mistake.
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You need a chance to course correct as you build and make sure you're
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headed in the right direction.
0:29
Becca: I'm Becca Pountney, Wedding Business Marketing Expert,
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Speaker and Blogger, and you're listening to the Wedding Pros
0:35
Who Are Ready to Grow podcast.
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I'm here to share with you actionable tips, strategies, I'm going to be
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sharing with you some wonderful wedding business tips and real
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life examples to help you take your wedding business to the next level.
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If you are an ambitious wedding business owner that wants to take your passion
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and use it to build a profitable, sustainable business doing what you
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love, then you're in the right place.
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Let's get going with today's episode.
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Today I'm chatting with Jen Trotter.
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She's known as the queen of bridal beauty in Dallas in Texas.
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Having run her lip service makeup business for the last 28 years, and trust me,
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looking at her, I can hardly believe that that's possible, but she really has.
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And having worked with thousands of brides, Jen has seen it all.
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So now using her bridal experience along with her communications background,
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she speaks on stages teaching other pros how to reduce and manage
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conflict and chaos in their business.
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We're going to be digging deep into communication boundaries and why
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we need to stop over apologizing.
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And I just can't wait to have that conversation because I know
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lots of you need to hear it.
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Jen, welcome to the podcast.
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Jen: Oh, thanks for having me, Becca.
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I'm so excited to be here.
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And Hello to all of my friends across the pond and all of your listeners.
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Becca: It's a pleasure to have you.
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And seriously, I know this podcast is not video recorded, it's just audio.
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But there is no way you are old enough to have been in business that many years.
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I need to have your skincare regime.
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Jen: I do have a bit of a baby face.
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I always have had.
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But I'll tell you my biggest skincare secret is I'm allergic to the sun.
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So I don't do sun at all.
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And I never have.
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And, like, trust me, I would have, because I'm from the generation where
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we would lay out with baby oil, and my friends all did that, like, on
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space blankets and baked in the sun.
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I'm from that generation, but I couldn't do it because I burn so easy.
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I don't really know why, I'm not that pale, but I'm allergic to the sun.
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And so, I've just always avoided the sun, and I didn't really think too much
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of it until I turned about 35 or 40.
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I just realized I wasn't really getting wrinkles yet and I
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was like, Hey, this is okay.
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Then I stopped being mad.
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Okay, you've heard it here first.
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Then I stopped being mad that I was pale and I was like, I think I'm just
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going to be fine with being pale.
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It's all good.
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Becca: Side note, I don't know how you can possibly avoid the sun living in
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Dallas, in Texas, because it's like one of the sunniest places in the world.
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You need to move to England because we have the clouds and the cold all the time.
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Jen: I know.
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I live my life like a, like a British person probably.
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Becca: That's brilliant.
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Now for people that don't know you, and I guess there'll be a large
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percentage of my audience that don't currently know who you are.
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I love to just get a bit of background because before we go into, you know,
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sharing your expertise, I think it's important that people understand
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your background, understand where they, where you've come from, so they
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know why they should listen to you.
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So let's go right back.
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I'd love to know, how did you end up in weddings and in makeup in the first place?
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Jen: Well, how I wound up as a professional makeup artist
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is an interesting story.
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When I was in my early twenties, I was actually a model and not really
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an actor, but I was a presenter.
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I hosted a local TV show.
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I did marketing videos.
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So I was actually on air talent.
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So I, that was kind of like a little side business and I had a couple of
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different production companies that I worked with and I was on air talent
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and I would do my own hair and makeup.
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And one day, one of the production companies I worked for reached out
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and said, we're shooting a commercial.
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We would love for you to come and be our makeup artist.
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I was like, what?
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I don't do that.
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And they're like, yes, you do.
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You know exactly what to do.
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And on the shoot, we, we flew to Arizona and to a very swank resort and
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shot a commercial for Wyndham hotels.
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And during the shoot, they kind of told me the reason that they gave me a chance
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is they were like we knew you could figure out the hair and makeup part but you're
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just, you're fun, you're nice, you're easy to get along with, you're Johnny on
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the spot, like, you're excited, you're just, we just wanted that energy on set
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and we knew you could figure out the rest.
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So how cool is that, that they saw that in me and gave me a chance.
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I like to joke that I got my big break just by being a nice normal person,
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which isn't really that sexy, but hey, I built a 30 year career on it.
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So, so for a couple of years I did commercials because having, I
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don't know in the UK, but like here in the, in the States, we didn't
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really have pro teams come out and do your wedding hair and makeup.
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Back in the day, people would maybe go to their salon and get their hair done.
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Maybe their friend would do their makeup.
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Maybe if they were really fancy, they would go to Neiman Marcus or something.
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But it really didn't start becoming a trend until about 26, 27 years ago.
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That is when people started to recognize like, I don't
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want to go around to a salon.
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I want to bring a team on site.
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I want people who do weddings all the time, and I want this to be a
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really smooth and luxurious process.
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And so when I started doing weddings, I was like, sold.
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This is, I love doing weddings, I love the connection, it's a great fit for
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me because I'm really detail oriented.
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So, the fact that I have a business background lends itself really
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well to working with brides, because you really need structure
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to work with brides successfully.
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And I just, I love it.
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And now, even now, we do, you know, anywhere from 200 to 250 weddings a year.
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Every year.
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We also do TV and film.
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We do I work with Dateline in 2020.
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If you're into murder shows, we can talk about that.
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I work with Dateline in 2020.
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We even did a season of Love is Blind for Netflix.
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We worked on Paramount's 1883.
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Like we work on other stuff as well, but weddings are kind of
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the bread and butter and the main source of revenue for my team.
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Becca: Wow.
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So you really do it all.
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And I love that you've kept in with that TV and film industry a little
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bit as well, which is where your roots were right at the beginning.
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And it's exciting.
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And yeah, as.
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As for Dateline, we don't have it here.
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And I hear it talked about in podcasts that I listen to.
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True, cause I do love a bit of true crime.
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I hear it talked about all of the time.
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They always refer to Dateline.
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Dateline, I've got no idea what it is.
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Jen: You can probably access it on podcasts.
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They have a Dateline podcast.
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So if you can't, if you don't have it streaming on TV, you can probably
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find it online or on a podcast.
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So, is it just true crime stuff?
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It's true crime.
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And so, I only work for Dateline when they're doing a crime that
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happened here in Dallas, Fort Worth.
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So, the most recent one I did was the story of a woman.
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She was out on the street and a truck ran up and gunned her
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husband down in the street.
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And she was like, Oh my God, my husband's been killed, etc.
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Well, come to find out it was her boyfriend and they had planned it.
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And so yeah, it was, it was quite the story.
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It was quite the story.
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So that was the last one that I worked on, and actually I worked on that story
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with Dateline and with 2020, oddly.
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But so when a crime happens here in Dallas Fort Worth, if they decide
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that they want to dig into it and profile it, they're going to reach
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out to me and I'll work with them.
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Becca: Wow, what a great connection.
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And how different doing something like that is to doing a wedding,
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like two ends of the spectrum.
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The happiest thing and the saddest thing all at once.
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But I love that.
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guess from what you were saying and that this isn't just you anymore.
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It's not you just going out and doing all of these different jobs.
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You would be crazy lady if you were that busy.
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So have you built a team at what point in your business did that come about
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and how did you make that decision?
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Jen: That came about so up until 10 years ago, I worked full time and did
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hair and makeup on the side, which that.
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Even now saying that seems crazy because it was so busy and so nuts, but I was
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terrified to let go of a paycheck.
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I just wanted that really steady income and it's really scary and I'm sure a
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lot of other people have been in that scenario where you're like, can I do this?
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Will it, will it support my family?
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Is, can I make this fly?
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And so, I was the director of Make A Wish in Fort Worth, which I'm sure you
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guys are familiar with Make A Wish.
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We've got chapters there in the UK.
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And, I wound up leaving Make A Wish.
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I just was really burnt out after 10 years, and I really was doing a shift.
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I'd gotten divorced from my husband, and my whole life was doing a shift.
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And I decided to go all in on hair and makeup and everything just lined up.
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Like I landed a magazine cover.
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I got nominated for an award.
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I started building a team.
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It just, everything came into place, letting me know that this
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was the right time to do it.
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So I've had a team now for about 12 years and I have 22 people on my team.
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Wow.
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So I have people on my team that sometimes I'll send them out to do stuff one off.
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I may, you know, if we have a corporate production or
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something, I'll just send them.
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Sometimes we're doing something all together, like a really big wedding.
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There could be five or six of us working together.
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Some people work with me every weekend, some people, you
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know, 20 or 30 times a year.
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But, yeah, I've got a really wonderful team of dedicated girls that I just adore.
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Becca: Amazing.
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And I know that a lot of people resonate with that feeling of quitting
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a paycheck because even I, I hung on to a little part time job for ages
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because there's something about knowing that you're definitely getting that
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money that feels really appealing.
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But I'm assuming you've got no regrets now having taken that leap.
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Jen: No, no, not at all.
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And the thing about it is, is it, I know that it's really
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scary because I was terrified.
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But there's no way I could have developed and grown and turned my business into
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what it is without letting go of that, without letting go of another job.
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Because physically, you can only do so much.
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Mentally, you can only do so much.
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You only have so much time in any given day.
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So if you are not all in and devoting your time, it's just you can't grow
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and turn it into So, no, I have no regrets at all, but I will never forget
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the very first time like I didn't have a paycheck and I was like, Oh, the
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word, please, please let this be okay.
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And it has been, it's been wonderful.
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We've been successful and busy the whole time.
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Thankfully.
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Yeah.
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Becca: And there's something about that that actually drives us forward because
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there is no option not to do the work.
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When we've let go of that kind of comfort blanket, it's like, okay,
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well now I really need to go all in on this because this has to work.
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And as I say to my pros all the time, you know, if it doesn't work out,
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you can always go get a job again.
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Like it's not like you've given up job forever.
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Jen: Well, and I kind of, you know, I was like, I just kind of need a sign
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that this is the right thing to do.
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I was talking and by that point I had started dating my now husband.
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And so he was watching me go through the struggle of what to do, what to do.
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And I was like, I just need a sign.
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I just need a sign.
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And literally in the course of two weeks, I landed a magazine cover.
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I landed a Tostitos commercial with Troy Aikman, who's a Superbowl winner.
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I don't know if you knew who that is, but a big deal.
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I landed, I got nominated for a very prestigious award.
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It all happened in the course of like a week or two.
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And I was like, God, I hear you.
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I'm I'm in like, thanks for those signs.
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I can't ignore it.
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Becca: And in terms of your team, cause I know there'll be some hair and makeup
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artists here in the UK, listening to this and thinking, Oh, I want to do that.
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But I'm really scared about finding someone for my team.
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That's as good as me or as reliable.
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Typically, how do you go about kind of having that quality control?
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Cause ultimately they're going out under your name, under your brand.
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Jen: Well, my best advice there is to go slow, like build
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your team very, very slowly.
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Add somebody, make sure that they're the right fit, get them situated,
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proven, get them really kind of integrated, and then consider adding
12:10
another person and so on and so forth.
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Don't go like, Oh, I need six P like, I think the mistake that I see people
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make and keep in mind, just all of these years, I've seen a lot of things happen.
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Is that people just wake up one day and they're like, Oh, I'm
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going to have a bridal beauty team.
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And all of a sudden they're, you know, going from zero to 150
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weddings and no staff to, you know, 20 stat, like, don't go that fast.
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I think that in most cases that is going to be a huge mistake.
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You need a chance to course correct as you build and make sure you're
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headed in the right direction.
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But most of the people that find their way to my team, they are aware of.
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How I run my business and the experience that I have for
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my brides and for my staff.
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And so they recognize like, I love lip services style.
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I love that.
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I mean, I pay really well.
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I treat my staff really well.
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I set up a great experience and set them up for success.
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I handle the customer service with my clients, so it's a
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very easy process for my staff.
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They show up, do hair and makeup, and go home.
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That makes a lot of consistency.
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And I have people helping me behind the scenes.
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I've got, you know, assistants that help me with email and assistants
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that help me on wedding day and stuff.
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But when it comes to talking to clients, I do it all.
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And that might not work for everybody, I understand.
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But for me, the gift that it has given me is an incredibly
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consistent experience every time.
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So, so nowadays basically, like one of my girls on my team will usually
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be like, Hey, I worked with this girl the other day, and I think she'd
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be such a great fit for our team.
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Can we try her out?
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And so I'll reach out to that person.
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We've only got one guy.
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I mean, I would love to have more guys, but we only, at the
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moment, we only really have one.
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So I'll reach out to that person, chat with them, see if they feel like a
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good fit, offer them some work, try to do it on an occasion where I'm going
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to be there as well so we can work together, and then see how it goes.
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So I don't really have to recruit and reach out, thankfully.
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My, my, my team is kind of doing it for me.
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Becca: That's fab advice.
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And I really know that there'll be people listening to this, that
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will find that incredibly helpful.
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So thank you for digging into that.
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Now, I love what you said actually about how, yes, you're, you've got
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this team going out and doing hair and makeup, but you're still doing.
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Most of the customer service and the communication now, obviously
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that fits in with what we're talking about, because I know that you value
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that side of your business, which I guess is why you're still doing it.
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And that that is kind of the key to not having this chaos and
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stuff going on in your business.
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So you've obviously hung onto that.
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You're the key communication contact.
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In the business.
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And you're now going out and talking to other wedding pros about this subject.
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Now, what gives you the expertise?
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What, what is it that makes you think, yeah, I'm good at communication.
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I know that I mentioned in the bio that you've worked in that area.
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Like talk to me more about your experience in that, in that field.
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Jen: Part of it is honestly, just naturally my personality.
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I've been a boss at every job I've ever had.
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When I was 18, I was a company trainer for a restaurant.
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I traveled.
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All around Texas, training all the other servers, how to be servers.
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I've always been in charge of things, and I've always been a teacher.
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I've done a lot of corporate training, and I have a background
15:28
in conflict resolution.
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So, when I worked at Make A Wish, for example, one of my jobs was to teach
15:34
volunteers how to go out and visit with families, how to connect, how to
15:38
find out what the child's wish was, how to handle awkward conversations.
15:43
Like, you show up to a Wish family's house, and they're
15:45
like, Hey, glad you're here.
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Can you pay all our bills?
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Like you can't just blink back at them.
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You've got to know you've got to have a strategy of what to say and how to
15:54
handle those awkward conversations.
15:55
So that has been part of every job I've ever had.
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My last paid position, I was a PR executive, and so I just have
16:03
a background in communications.
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But I use all of that in how I run my business, which is
16:09
why it's really different.
16:11
And I think that a lot of people who are creatives, whether
16:15
you're a photographer, a DJ, etc.
16:18
If you have not worked in a corporate setting, if you've worked in a
16:21
corporate setting, you have been exposed to some of the structure
16:25
around, when this happens, we do this.
16:27
If this happens, we say this.
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If we have this problem, this is how we fix it.
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If you, if you've worked in a corporate setting, you've been exposed to that.
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But if you have a fine arts degree and you've been a photographer
16:38
and that's all you've ever done, you haven't been exposed to that.
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So what I want to do is help other creative people bring that structure and
16:48
that customer service into their business.
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And something, and this is pretty radical, but like, I feel like we spend so much
16:55
time talking about marketing, branding.
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finances, social media, like all of these things, but people spend zero
17:04
time managing their communication and reducing their conflict.
17:08
And that will take your business down.
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I've seen it happen.
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What, what I mean by that, it could be things like, I'll give
17:18
an example to my own business.
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Pretend there's this other bridal beauty team that's not lip service.
17:24
They might do beautiful hair and makeup.
17:27
They've got really talented people who do great hair and makeup, but
17:31
maybe they walk in the door wearing shorts and t shirts looking like
17:34
they're ready to wash the car.
17:35
Maybe they don't have their hair and makeup done and they
17:38
embarrass the bride and her family.
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And she's like, Oh my God, this is my hair and makeup team.
17:43
Maybe they put in their headphones and don't talk to anybody.
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Maybe if someone says, Oh, I'd like this tweaked, they're
17:48
rude and on and on and on.
17:51
So those people could deliver services.
17:56
In that way, and it would be a terrible experience, even though the
18:00
hair and makeup still look great.
18:02
So, you can, you can you know, flip that over to any category.
18:06
A photographer, a DJ, a florist, a planner, etc.
18:10
You can do the tasks.
18:12
You can accomplish the tasks.
18:13
You could create these beautiful florals and all the things.
18:17
But if you neglect how your client feels and how they feel about working
18:22
with you, your business will not be sustainable and it will not be long term.
18:26
And I've seen a lot of very talented people over the
18:28
years who are not bad people.
18:31
They're not like they're not doing anything shady.
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It's not that.
18:35
It's just they just don't know how to manage it.
18:37
And all of a sudden they've got clients they're complaining about or vendor
18:41
partners that they're having fights with.
18:43
Or bad reviews, or at the extreme end of it, maybe legal issues because
18:48
they didn't handle something well.
18:49
And all of a sudden they're like, forget it, I'm out, I can't be
18:52
a planner anymore, this sucks.
18:54
And that is the gift that I want to give people when I'm speaking,
18:59
when I'm talking on podcasts.
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That is the gift that I want to give people, is the tools.
19:04
To have a sustainable business for a long period of time that has the least
19:10
amount of stress and chaos possible And might I say also i'm sorry.
19:14
My voice is so croaky.
19:15
I woke up not feeling great this morning So I promise I don't I don't
19:19
smoke like five packs of cigarettes a day in my I'm just not feeling well,
19:23
Becca: it's okay.
19:23
We're not judging you and we're really enjoying.
19:25
I'm hanging on to every word you're saying.
19:27
And to your point, I think it's really interesting because actually what
19:30
I see in my own experience is often people don't realize they don't have
19:33
a strategy for dealing with this stuff until something comes to them.
19:37
So until they get a difficult client, until a client complains on email, and
19:41
then they go into panic mode because they're like, I don't know what to do.
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I'm going to get a hundred bad reviews and they panic.
19:48
So what I would love from you then is.
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You're going to give us this gift of feeling more peaceful in our business.
19:53
I would love some practical ideas of how we can work on
19:56
this stuff before it's too late.
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How can we make sure we've got practices in our business to make sure that
20:02
we know how we're dealing with this conflict and chaos before it happens?
20:07
Jen: Well, the easiest thing you can do is look at your business
20:10
and look at low hanging fruit.
20:12
And by that, I mean, is there something that people are confused about?
20:17
Like, does every client say, I don't understand this form?
20:21
Or, I don't get this on the contract.
20:22
Is there something that is hinky at the beginning of the pro like, look
20:27
at your process start to finish.
20:29
Is there anything that people complain about or you feel like
20:32
you're always having to manage?
20:35
If so, dive there first, dig into that stuff, and fix it.
20:40
So what that could mean is, like, if you own a venue and you're a front facing
20:45
person who takes the phone calls, If they're unpleasant and rude, maybe they
20:49
need to do something behind the scenes and get someone else in that position.
20:53
Don't cut yourself off at the knees.
20:55
So look at your low hanging fruit from the beginning of the process.
20:59
Is there anything that it's easy to fix?
21:02
Like, say, in your contract, you don't really explain something well.
21:06
So after the fact, people are always like, Well, I didn't know.
21:10
I didn't know that this didn't work this way.
21:12
Go back to the contract, clear that up, and fix it, so that you don't
21:16
have to deal with the crap later.
21:18
That's the first thing you gotta do.
21:20
But one of the most important things you have to do Is really think about
21:25
tools so that every time you have an issue of some sort, you can open up your
21:31
toolbox and dig in and pull them out.
21:33
So, for example, if you have someone who is irritated, maybe
21:38
you missed a phone call and now they're like, Hey, I called you.
21:41
Now I'm calling you again.
21:43
Do not panic.
21:45
Instead, figure out what's going on.
21:48
Are they just a little bit frustrated or did you really screw up and
21:53
you really have to dig in and do some, do some work to fix it?
21:57
What's happening?
21:58
Because I think so often people just wig and for example, in that
22:03
scenario I just gave you, like if someone's like, Hey, I've tried to
22:06
call you, you didn't call me back.
22:08
The proper response is to call them as quickly as you can say, Oh my
22:12
gosh, I'm so sorry I missed your call.
22:13
What can I do for you?
22:15
They don't need, you don't need to fall on a sword and be like, Oh my
22:18
God, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry.
22:22
When you do that, that's about you, it's not about your client.
22:26
When you're going, Oh my God, I'm like, that's, you're not focused on your client.
22:31
You should always be focused on your client and what you need to
22:36
make that process go smoothly.
22:38
They don't care about all your excuses and your BS.
22:41
Like, just say, I'm so sorry, what can I do for you?
22:43
I'm here to help you now.
22:44
What, what can I do?
22:46
And roll on, roll on with the solution.
22:49
So that's at the most, like, basic, basic level.
22:52
Now, let's go forward to other hinky things.
22:56
Like, you've got someone who, maybe they didn't understand something,
22:59
or they think something's too expensive, or they're irritated.
23:03
Like, you really know that they are irritated.
23:07
The important thing to understand here, and this is gonna sound
23:10
strange, but hear me out.
23:11
You've gotta figure out, is it a real problem?
23:14
Or is it a fake problem?
23:17
What I mean by that is Are they are they having a bad day?
23:23
Are they taking their frustrations out on you in my case with hair and makeup?
23:27
Are they just feeling insecure about their looks or something?
23:30
Those are not real problems that can be fixed with real world solutions
23:34
Okay So i'll give you an example.
23:38
I had a mother of a bride who was very high anxiety And just
23:42
wearing out all of the vendors.
23:43
And she just ran very high, wanted everything to be perfect.
23:47
And she called the planner about two weeks before the wedding and
23:52
said to the planner, she goes, Jif is trying to screw me over.
23:55
She's not going to be there in enough time.
23:56
She's not going to bring enough people.
23:58
None of that was true.
24:00
Okay, the planner called me told me this was happening.
24:03
So how do you think I felt?
24:05
I was pissed.
24:06
I was super angry, but I got out my toolbox and I was
24:11
like, okay, use my tools.
24:14
This is not a real problem.
24:17
This, what she's saying is not true.
24:20
I have everything under control.
24:22
What's happening is she is filled with anxiety.
24:25
It landed in my direction that day.
24:28
So I cannot try to fix her problem with a real world solution because
24:33
there isn't a real world solution.
24:35
There's no, does that make sense?
24:36
Yeah, it makes total sense.
24:37
I mean, this is, this is kind of a radical thing to talk about because I've
24:42
never heard anyone else talk about this.
24:44
But you really have to think about like, If they're mad because some
24:49
you didn't call them, that's real.
24:51
You can make sure you call them on time because that's a real solution.
24:55
If someone is just pointing their frustration.
24:58
Maybe their mother is really giving them grief about the expense of the
25:01
wedding and they're stressed out.
25:03
Maybe they're just having a really terrible day.
25:06
If they're just pointing frustration in your direction, that is not real.
25:11
It's not that it's not important, but it's not, you can't fix
25:13
it with a real world solution.
25:16
So I think it's very important to understand.
25:17
So I called her.
25:19
And what a lot of people would do in that situation, they would just
25:23
let that sit and be like, Oh, I don't want to talk to that lady.
25:26
She's crazy.
25:27
She's like saying terrible things like she's a jerk.
25:30
I don't want, I don't want to talk to her.
25:33
Hell no.
25:33
I dropped what I was doing and picked up the phone right then.
25:37
Why?
25:38
Because that's like a tornado spinning.
25:41
If I let that spin all night long, it's just getting bigger and bigger
25:45
and picking up debris as it goes.
25:47
So I called her right then.
25:49
I mean I waited 15 minutes because I was pissed.
25:51
I had to get myself situated.
25:53
But I called her and I just said, hey, how are you doing?
25:58
I know you're really stressed out and you want everything to be perfect, but
26:01
you know, I have this under control.
26:04
Remember we talked about this?
26:06
Remember we talked about how many people I'm bringing?
26:08
Remember we talked, it's all set.
26:11
I have it all under control and I know that you know that.
26:13
But I totally get that you're really wound up.
26:15
It's fine.
26:16
I understand.
26:18
And she was like, Jen, I'm so sorry.
26:20
I just, I'm just having one of those days.
26:22
I'm so sorry.
26:23
And I was like, it's totally fine.
26:26
The next time I saw her was two weeks later on wedding day.
26:28
Giant hug.
26:30
So happy to see me.
26:32
Everything went perfect and smooth.
26:34
Big tit.
26:35
Like, sometimes that's what you have to do.
26:38
But if you make the mistake of avoiding it because you're scared, That's gonna,
26:44
imaginary problem will start to feel real.
26:48
Or, if you get on your computer and you're like, Remember, Susie
26:52
Q, that I have everything in place.
26:54
If you get, she'll hear it defensively.
26:56
Even if you don't mean it defensively, it's gonna sound defensive.
27:00
Pick up the phone.
27:01
You have got to pick up the phone.
27:03
And also, I was not, I didn't apologize.
27:06
Why, why didn't I apologize, Becca?
27:08
Because you hadn't done anything wrong.
27:10
Yes.
27:10
Ding, ding, ding.
27:11
I had not done anything wrong.
27:14
There is nothing to apologize for when you have not done anything wrong.
27:19
So I did not approach that phone conversation like, I'm so sorry.
27:24
Like a kick dog.
27:26
Like, you're gonna be mean, so I'm a kick dog.
27:28
No.
27:29
No.
27:30
I see it for what it is.
27:31
She's a very nice woman.
27:33
She is.
27:33
She's really kind and very sweet.
27:35
Who just runs at a super high level of anxiety.
27:38
It landed, it's landed on other vendors at other times, but it was my turn, I guess.
27:43
So, no, I came, I came into that conversation confident and, and like,
27:48
Hey, I got this, but I, I let her hear my voice, which again, sounds so
27:52
scratchy right now, but I let her hear the kindness and warmth in my voice.
27:57
And I just said, it's fine.
27:58
I'm not upset.
28:00
I get what you're going through, but it's all under control.
28:04
It's all under control.
28:05
Becca: And sometimes it's just reassurance, isn't it?
28:07
Because I think we forget because we're in this wedding world all of the time.
28:11
We forget what a big deal it is for the families, what a big amount of money it
28:15
is that they're spending on this event, how much pressure different members of the
28:18
party are feeling about this day, and I think sometimes they do take it out on us
28:23
and we have to remember because I think our default position, and this is why
28:27
your example is so good and it's important for us to think our default position is.
28:31
Well, I must be the one in the wrong.
28:32
I, oh, I need to supply an extra hair and makeup person.
28:35
I need to get there early and we try and fix it.
28:37
But exactly as you're saying, we don't need to fix it.
28:40
We're the expert.
28:41
And actually what they're looking for isn't an additional makeup artist.
28:44
It's just reassurance that everything's going to be okay.
28:47
Jen: Right.
28:48
And it's important to learn how to, to figure out.
28:51
Is this a real world problem that can be solved with a real world solution?
28:56
You know, I I've had other people that maybe we set things up with two artists
29:01
and we've got this amount of time and like the bride might call me and
29:05
be like, you know, I'm just anxious.
29:06
Like, I just really want to be sure we have enough time.
29:09
Well, in that case, I can say to her, Yeah, you can pay an extra fee.
29:12
I'll bring a third artist.
29:14
If that'll make you feel better, let's do that.
29:16
Because her, her, not problem, but her concern has a real world solution.
29:23
So I can easily, again, I'm not going to apologize, If that's going to make
29:27
her feel better, Hell yeah, let's do it.
29:29
Why not?
29:30
But I think the most important thing to learn is how to really
29:35
look at each of these scenarios.
29:37
And figure out what's going on here and not take it personally.
29:41
Like, can you imagine how I felt when that planner called me?
29:46
Like she said, I'm screwing her over.
29:49
Are you kidding me?
29:50
Like that's.
29:51
That's not nice.
29:52
Like, I was angry, but me being, sitting in my feelings and being angry is not
29:58
going to help in any way, shape or form.
30:01
So, me feeling angry will get in the way of me using my
30:05
tools and having a clear head.
30:07
So, it's okay to be angry when someone pisses you off or is
30:10
rude to you or is ridiculous or just a general pain in the butt.
30:14
Like, it's fine to feel angry or upset or annoyed or However you feel, that's cool.
30:20
But the way I always think of it, I'm a big visualizer, but I visualize, I'm gonna
30:25
feel my feelings and I'm, I'm gonna, yeah, I'm valid being pissed right now, but
30:29
then I'm gonna put that in a box and I'm gonna be like, I'm gonna put it over here.
30:34
I'm gonna put it over to the side now.
30:37
Now I've got a clear head.
30:38
What do I do to make this situation?
30:42
What, what am I gonna do to resolve this?
30:44
Because I mean, yeah, I could have called her back and been like, I
30:48
can't believe you said that that was not nice, and blah, blah.
30:50
What is that going to do for me?
30:52
What is that going to do?
30:53
It's going to make me look bad to the planner, who's a really great planner.
30:56
We've been friends for forever.
30:58
She trusts me and respects me.
30:59
So when this happened, she was not the least bit worried.
31:03
She knew that I knew how to solve it.
31:05
And that is gold.
31:07
That is gold.
31:08
When your vendor partners, when there's a situation like this,
31:12
and they're like, Hey, Jen, I know this chick is being ridiculous.
31:15
Can you take They know that I can take care of it.
31:18
They know that I can.
31:20
And that is fantastic and so helpful for my long term vendor relationships.
31:25
It's really, really helpful for those long term vendor relationships.
31:28
Becca: I'm so glad you're talking about this subject because you're right.
31:30
We don't talk about this kind of thing enough in any way, shape or form.
31:35
And one of the things I say a lot to my clients, they'll email me and they'll
31:38
forward me an email that they've had.
31:39
And they're like to do.
31:41
And the first thing I say is take the emotion out of it.
31:44
Right.
31:44
It's not, they're not having a go at you, like just look at it logically.
31:48
So when you talk about referring to your toolkit, are you saying like, just take
31:52
some time, go through this logically?
31:54
Like what, what do you mean by that?
31:56
Jen: What I mean by that is like when I do a presentation at CaterSource,
32:00
Wedding MBA, et cetera, in each of those talks, I'm giving people specific tools.
32:07
Like just now in this conversation, I'm giving you tools, go for the low hanging
32:12
fruit, fix issues before they start.
32:14
You know, I'm giving you a set of tools, right?
32:17
So all of those tools of things I have learned over time, I keep all
32:22
that stuff in a mental toolkit so that when something happens, I'm
32:27
like, okay, I know how to fix it.
32:29
I just got to think about All the strategies I know, how,
32:33
what's the strategy that's going to take care of this.
32:36
So, one thing that I love to do when I speak, is give
32:40
people real words and phrases.
32:42
Do you want to hear a couple of them?
32:43
Yes, I would love to.
32:44
Okay, because like, whenever you go to a presentation, don't you get annoyed when
32:48
like, You feel like you're just, they're just a talking motivational poster and
32:52
you're like, give me something real, like give me, give me something I can
32:54
walk out of here and use today, right?
32:57
That's how I always feel.
32:58
So, I always include in my talk real words and phrases.
33:02
One of my favorite ones is, I'm sure you can understand.
33:06
This is genius, and let me tell you how this works.
33:09
When someone says to you, I want to do this, I want to do that,
33:12
and in your head you're like, Yeah, that doesn't work that way.
33:16
Instead of saying, yeah, no, I don't want to do that.
33:19
You can say, well, I'm sure you can understand that in order to take a
33:23
booking, we've got to have a minimum because we're full time florists and
33:27
weddings are our primary form of business.
33:30
So I'm sure you can understand that.
33:32
This is why it is so freaking magical because when you say,
33:36
I'm sure you can understand.
33:37
This is actually manipulation, which I have to say this really quick.
33:42
Do not be afraid of the word manipulation.
33:44
Don't be scared of it.
33:46
Manipulation is only bad if you're trying to pull something over on somebody.
33:49
In this context, we're talking about manipulation to help people
33:53
feel the way they already want to.
33:55
Kind of like when you go to a spa and they've got the soft
33:57
music and you go to a restaurant and they've got beautiful decor.
34:00
It's that, that kind of manipulation.
34:02
We're trying to help them feel the way they want.
34:05
So, when you say, I'm sure you can understand, you're saying,
34:08
Oh my gosh, you're a smart person and you're reasonable.
34:11
So, of course, when I say this to you, you're going to understand.
34:14
They don't want to come back and say, Nope, I'm too dumb.
34:17
I don't get it.
34:19
And it works for every situation.
34:21
It even works at home, to be honest with you, which is pretty funny.
34:24
I use it on my husband sometimes.
34:26
So, that's a phrase that I absolutely love.
34:29
Another one that I really love is, Oh, I can totally see why you'd ask that.
34:34
Let me explain how that works.
34:36
That would be something like, maybe if you're a florist, they
34:39
want, they're, they're trying to do this huge installation, and they
34:43
don't want to pay for extra staff.
34:45
Maybe you've got, like, I don't know, three hours to set it up, and so you've
34:49
told them this is how many staff members we're going to need to pull this off.
34:53
And they're like, well, I don't understand, why can't you just
34:55
do it with this many people?
34:57
And you could say, I totally see why it might look that way, but I'm going
35:01
to walk you through it, and I'm going to explain it, and I'm sure it's
35:03
going to make perfect sense to you.
35:05
It's kind of a little bit like, I'm sure you can understand,
35:08
here's why that phrase works.
35:10
That works because you're not insulting them.
35:13
You're not making them feel like they just asked you a dumb
35:15
question, because it's not dumb.
35:17
They don't know.
35:18
It's your job to educate.
35:20
But more importantly, when you say, I'm going to walk you through it and
35:23
it's going to make perfect sense, you're manipulating them again.
35:26
You're saying, I'm going to tell you this and this is how
35:29
you're going to feel about it.
35:30
And they are going to feel that way about it.
35:32
It's like magic for real.
35:34
But also you're giving them a peek behind the curtain.
35:39
You're helping them feel kind of in the know to the wedding industry.
35:42
And people love that.
35:44
They love to feel like, Oh, now I have a better understanding of how it all works.
35:48
So you're doing several things at the same time.
35:51
Does that make sense?
35:52
Becca: It makes perfect sense.
35:53
I love these phrases.
35:54
Jen: Yeah.
35:54
These things are all so much more effective than just
35:58
saying, no, we don't do that.
36:00
Or no, it doesn't work that way.
36:02
So when we hopped on before we started recording, you'd asked
36:05
me about over apologizing.
36:07
You want to get into that real quick before we wrap up?
36:09
Becca: Yeah, I would love to get into that a little bit because I think it's
36:12
easy to start an email to someone saying, I'm so sorry, or so like, and I'm always
36:17
thinking, what can we say instead of that?
36:19
Jen: Okay.
36:20
So here's the thing to remember.
36:22
It is always fine and appropriate.
36:24
If you have screwed up, it is always fine to say, I'm so sorry, or.
36:29
Oh my gosh, like I apologize for doing that.
36:31
That's always fine if you have screwed up, but you need to save that for times
36:36
when you've screwed up only, okay?
36:39
Another phrase that I really want for people to ban is unfortunately.
36:43
Now this is why.
36:44
So like if you say to me, if you're hiring me to do hair and makeup for
36:49
something and you're like, well I want to do hair and makeup for this many
36:53
people and I want this, Rate and I'm like that's no that's not my rate.
36:57
I charge more than that.
36:59
Well if I say well, unfortunately, I don't offer discounts That's
37:02
very like, wah, wah, wah.
37:05
You're not getting what you want.
37:06
You feel very like, I didn't get what I wanted out of this interchange at all.
37:10
Instead, I'm going to say, I totally understand, I mean, I've got budgets
37:15
too, things I want to pay for, and I get that this is not cheap necessarily,
37:19
but I guarantee that if you hire us to do this job for you, you're
37:23
going to love your hair and makeup.
37:25
We're going to make it a smooth and easy process.
37:27
So, if you decide you want a book, we would absolutely love to work with you.
37:32
How much better does that feel?
37:33
So much better.
37:34
Becca: So, we're banning the word unfortunately.
37:36
Jen: Well, and particularly when it's not accurate.
37:40
So, if someone says, can you do this?
37:42
I'm not going to say unfortunately we can't because generally
37:45
that's, it's not unfortunate.
37:47
It's, it's not unfortunate that I'm not giving you a discount.
37:50
I don't do discounts.
37:51
Discounts are stupid.
37:52
I'm just going to say now, let me, let me qualify for, for different
37:57
things, like for different categories, it could make sense.
38:00
Particularly like venues, venues are going to discount during off season.
38:03
That's very standard.
38:05
People are going to do that.
38:06
If you, you know, depending on what you do for a living, if you're like,
38:09
I really need to book something and I want to create a special so I can get
38:13
a couple more bookings under my belt.
38:15
I totally understand that, but generally what I mean by discounts don't make sense
38:19
or they're stupid is when someone comes at you and they're like, I really want
38:24
your goods and services and you're like, here is my price and they're like, well,
38:28
I want that, but I don't want to pay it.
38:30
That's when it makes no sense to me.
38:32
That's ridiculous.
38:34
Where else in your life can you do that?
38:36
Can you go down, pop down to the shop and say like I want all these snacks and
38:39
treats, but I don't want to pay for it.
38:42
No, you can't, you can't go into Christian Louboutin and be like,
38:46
Oh, I know these shoes are 1, 200, but I really want to pay 600.
38:50
They look at you like you're insane.
38:52
So it's not, it's not unfortunate that I can't offer you a discount.
38:56
It's not unfortunate at all.
38:58
But I, instead of saying no, we don't do that.
39:01
No, no, no, no, no.
39:02
Or being combative, I say, I totally get it.
39:06
I completely understand.
39:08
If you're just at the beginning of shopping around for your wedding hair
39:10
and makeup, I hope you'll come back.
39:12
We'd really love to work with you.
39:14
And guess what?
39:15
They do.
39:16
Becca: Yes, they do.
39:18
I love that.
39:19
And you're preaching to the converted here because I talk a lot about discounting.
39:22
I have a phrase I am known for saying, which is Disney never discount.
39:26
Cause if you want to go to magic kingdom, you are paying that price
39:29
and it is the price you've got to pay and there is no discount to be found.
39:33
Jen: No, exactly.
39:34
And I, I always think and I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings
39:36
by saying discounts are stupid.
39:37
So I just really want to qualify what I'm saying.
39:40
I just think that if you choose to discount because it benefits you,
39:44
it's something you want to do.
39:46
Go for it, but it doesn't make sense when you are presenting a price and
39:50
someone is pushing on you for a discount.
39:52
That's when it makes no sense.
39:54
If it's something you want to do because it behooves you to do it for
39:58
whatever reason, then that's different.
40:01
But when someone's pushing at you and basically what they're saying is.
40:06
I really want all your stuff, but I don't value it enough,
40:08
so I don't want to pay for it.
40:10
Why would you, why would you offer someone who thinks that about you?
40:13
Why would you give them a discount?
40:14
It makes no sense.
40:15
Becca: Absolutely.
40:16
Now, before we wrap up, there's one little thing I want to talk about, which
40:19
is how do we differentiate with all of this stuff, the chaos of the conflict?
40:24
How do we differentiate whether it's an us problem or a them problem?
40:28
How do we know whether, because it's easy for us to go, our clients are
40:31
so stupid and all blah, blah, blah.
40:34
But how do we know when actually maybe it's something we need to fix
40:36
rather than it's a them problem?
40:38
Jen: I think most of the time it falls into our hands.
40:41
I really do.
40:43
Now I do a couple talks on toxic clients and I did a lot of research for it and
40:48
honestly toxic clients are pretty rare.
40:51
When you think about it this way, if you have a hundred clients over the course
40:55
of the year, How many of those people are sitting around going, I'm gonna find
40:59
a florist and I'm gonna screw her over.
41:01
I'm gonna give her grief and make her life difficult.
41:04
It's, that is a, that is, people aren't doing that.
41:07
They are hiring you for goods and services because they want your goods and services.
41:12
They are not trying to be toxic.
41:15
People can become difficult or toxic.
41:19
If you don't make it easy to work with you, if you don't make things
41:22
clear, if you don't, if you see a problem, like maybe they're a bully,
41:27
they're kind of natural, maybe they were raised that way, they were raised
41:30
to really push the boundaries and ask for a lot of stuff or whatever.
41:34
If you don't manage those people, they can get out of hand, they
41:38
can really get out of hand.
41:40
Now having said that, you can do everything perfect and
41:44
right and have a toxic client.
41:46
That can happen to absolutely anybody.
41:49
Because occasionally I had a toxic client last year and just, I saw the
41:54
red flags and I took it on anyway and I regretted it, but literally
41:58
she was a pain in the ass to every single vendor she was dealing with.
42:02
And so she was one of those random, truly just a toxic, probably
42:06
toxic with every vendor she deals with in every aspect of her life.
42:12
I mean, all the rest of my clients over the course of the year, no, they're
42:15
just, they're doing what they do and I'm using my tools and I'm keeping him happy.
42:20
And to me, if I have a lot of people giving me grief, that's on me.
42:24
It really is.
42:26
People ask me all the time, like they're sitting in my chair and
42:28
when I'm doing their makeup, they're like, do you have bridezilla stories?
42:31
I'm like, not really.
42:32
And they're shocked.
42:34
They're like, you don't?
42:34
I'm like, you know, if I had a, I have funny stories.
42:38
I have a lot of funny stories for sure.
42:40
Like just goofy things that have happened and things that make us laugh.
42:44
But if I had a lot of jerk clients, it's That would be a reflection on me
42:49
and the way that I run my business and I can be hard for people to hear that
42:55
because It can be easier to sit back and be like it's just all those people.
42:59
It's all those people.
43:00
It's all those people and Again, it can happen to anybody So don't don't
43:05
beat yourself up if over the course of a year You've got someone who's a jerk
43:08
or a couple of people who are jerks.
43:10
It's just gonna happen but if you routinely hear things like well, I didn't
43:15
understand that Or you routinely are getting bad reviews, or you routinely
43:20
are having a conflict with a vendor partner who's kind of pissed at you
43:24
or doesn't understand something.
43:26
If you're having these bits and pieces of conflict everywhere along the way,
43:31
that is due to communication issues.
43:34
Doesn't mean you're a bad person.
43:35
It doesn't mean you're not a capable person.
43:38
Doesn't mean you're not a smart person.
43:39
It doesn't mean you're not fantastic at what you do.
43:42
Like I said, it could simply be that no one ever taught you these tools.
43:46
No one ever taught you how to manage these things to reduce the chaos.
43:51
Becca: Jen, this has been such a fantastic conversation.
43:53
I've really enjoyed going deep in all these different areas.
43:56
Thank you so much for your time.
43:57
Now we always end the podcast with the same question, which I'm going to post you
44:01
now, which is what's one thing you wish you'd known sooner in your own business?
44:05
Jen: Okay, one thing I wish I had known sooner in my own business,
44:10
I wish I had known to always keep control of my business.
44:15
Because when I was doing it part time, I used to give hair referrals to somebody.
44:20
I didn't take a cut, and I didn't man it like she would have her own contract.
44:25
And something that I wish I would have known early in my business, is to always
44:30
keep control of your business and don't let other people interfere with that.
44:35
And I'll give you a specific example, and it was really my naivete and just not
44:40
thinking about my business in that way.
44:42
But when I first started out, I mainly did makeup.
44:46
I did hair and makeup for commercial work and etcetera, but I didn't
44:49
really do wedding styling.
44:51
I didn't really want to.
44:52
So I would just, you know, give referrals to local hairstylists.
44:55
Well, I had this one girl, I started giving her referrals.
45:00
And in my naivete, I was just like, okay, she does, she does hair.
45:04
I do makeup.
45:05
It's going to be fine.
45:06
Well, she really honestly screwed me over.
45:09
She, I mean, all of her business was coming from me.
45:14
I wasn't taking a cut and I didn't have control over that situation.
45:19
And I just didn't know I was just naive.
45:22
And I didn't know what I should have done.
45:24
It said, do you want to be a contractor for me?
45:27
And do you want to come work this wedding?
45:28
I'll create this contract.
45:31
I will work with my client.
45:32
If you want to show up and do hair, I will pay you this rate.
45:35
And it's going to be a rate that includes a cut.
45:38
I should have never ever.
45:39
I mean, it's fine.
45:41
Like, she didn't wind up hurting my business.
45:44
She just kind of screwed me over.
45:46
I thought we were friends and really she just was Taking all the information
45:50
that I was giving her and the marketing information and trying to start her
45:53
own business, which didn't work.
45:54
She's out of business.
45:55
She's not successful.
45:57
But I just didn't, once I saw it after the fact, I was like, hindsight's
46:01
2020, this is what I should have done.
46:03
But she did me a favor because from that point, I was like, okay,
46:09
I'm putting my arms around this.
46:10
I have built this brand.
46:12
I'm going to make sure that I protect this brand at all costs.
46:15
So I am going to choose my contractors.
46:17
I'm going to have that contract.
46:19
I'm going to deal with the client and make sure she's
46:21
getting a consistent experience.
46:23
And I am going to make sure that I'm getting a cut of all of this
46:27
business that I'm farming out.
46:29
And so I did that and that from that point.
46:33
Like, lip service just really exploded.
46:35
And so, I want to tell you something kind of fun.
46:38
So here in Dallas Fort Worth, there's an award called the Vendy Award.
46:41
It's from an organization called the AACWP, which is all the planners in DFW.
46:46
And every year they vote for the best of the best in all of the categories.
46:50
And we have won that award for the last five years in a row.
46:54
That's amazing.
46:55
So we're now we're now we're going into the hall of fame.
46:58
That's awesome.
46:59
So that's so good.
47:00
I don't think that I don't think I could have grown my business.
47:03
I don't think I could have achieved that level of excellence without making
47:08
those big changes, you know, that was.
47:10
10, 12 years ago that I had that negative experience.
47:14
I was like, okay, this isn't working and I've got to completely shift.
47:17
But honestly, it really was a favor because then I saw
47:20
the correct way to do it.
47:22
I just wish that I had known from the beginning to do it that way.
47:24
Becca: Yeah.
47:25
Such good advice.
47:26
We live and we learn, but look at all you've achieved in the time since that.
47:30
Jen, it's been so great chatting with you.
47:31
If people want to find out more about you and what you do, where's the best
47:34
place for them to connect with you?
47:36
Jen: They can connect with me everywhere at Lip Service Makeup.
47:39
I'm on Instagram, Facebook, tick tock, all the places, lip service, makeup.
47:43
That's my bridal beauty business.
47:45
And then also they can find me at the Jen Trotter on Facebook.
47:49
And, and of course I have websites too, for both of these
47:52
lip service and the Jen Trotter.
47:54
But also on Instagram, that's for the Jen Trotter and Facebook.
47:58
I don't have a TikTok for my speaking yet.
48:01
But that's where they can find me.
48:03
I would love to connect and I would love to hear from anyone listening to this
48:06
podcast what they learned or if they tried any of those techniques and how it went.
48:11
I would love to know that.
48:12
Becca: Awesome.
48:12
I will make sure I put all of your links in the show notes so
48:15
that people can reach out to you.
48:16
And if you're listening to this and something's resonated or you've
48:18
got further questions, do you reach out to Jen and let her know where
48:22
you've used some of these phrases.
48:24
It's been such a pleasure.
48:25
I hope to see you somewhere soon.
48:27
Jen: Yes, thanks so much for having me, Becca.
48:29
It's a pleasure.
48:29
Thank you.
48:31
Becca: I love that conversation with Jen.
48:32
Isn't she amazing?
48:34
Such an interesting subject to delve into and something that, as she
48:37
says, we don't talk about enough.
48:39
I hope that you've now got some more tools in your toolkit to deal with
48:43
some of these difficult situations.
48:44
And remember that phrase, I'm sure you can understand because that is gold dust.
48:49
I'll see you next time.