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Why Do We All Chase 10,000 Steps a Day? · So That's Why

• 0:04
  Jenny Oliver: Welcome to the, so That's Why podcast where we unpack
• 0:07
  the science behind everyday questions.
• 0:10
  I'm Jen.
• 0:11
  Chris Smith: I'm Chris.
• 0:11
  Matt Edmundson: And I'm Matt.
• 0:13
  Jenny Oliver: So here's a question that has probably
• 0:15
  haunted most of us at one point.
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  Why do we obsess over hitting 10,000 steps every day?
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  Like I've literally.
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  Paced around my living room at 11:00 PM just to reach
• 0:27
  that magic number on my watch.
• 0:30
  Matt Edmundson: And you know what?
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  I'm not surprised.
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  Um, but I've been there.
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  Right?
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  That's, that's what I do too.
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  You know, you get this sort of collective panic, don't you, when you
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  are, when your watch shows 900 and, well, 9,847 steps before bedtime, and
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  so you just, you get off, don't you?
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  You sort of do, do, do, do.
• 0:49
  Chris Smith: It's so true.
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  Like it's 10,000 steps required, not 9,000.
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  Not 11,000.
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  10,000. Or you fail like some kind of squid games challenge.
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  Jenny Oliver: And here's what's funny.
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  Our bodies didn't come with a built-in step counter, you know?
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  Yet we've all accepted this target as if it's some kind of biological law.
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  Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
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  And the irony is brilliant, right?
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  In the sense that we've created technology that means.
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  We're more sedentary, right?
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  Like computers.
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  Mm. So then we buy technology to tell us that we're not moving enough,
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  and so we've literally invented the problem and then invented a
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  solution to sell back to ourselves.
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  Chris Smith: Yeah, it's genius.
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  But I promise you the Origin, the 10,000 step thing will not be what you expect.
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  It involves a Tokyo Olympics, a clever marketing team from Japan, and a number
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  that looks like a walking person.
• 1:40
  Jenny Oliver: A number that looks like a walking person.
• 1:43
  Chris Smith: I know, but before we get to that, it's vital.
• 1:46
  We talk about the huge benefits of walking for health in the first place.
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  Uh, so there was a 2025 study.
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  Published in The Lancet that analyzed data from well all over the world with 160,000
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  adults, and it found that people walking at least 7,000 steps per day showed a 25%
• 2:05
  reduction in cardiovascular disease risk.
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  But more than that, there's a 38% reduction in dementia and
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  a 22% reduction in depression.
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  And that was compared to people not just with a sedentary lifestyle, but people
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  already averaging 2000 steps per day,
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  Jenny Oliver: which explains why I felt like both my body and brain were
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  deteriorating in lockdown because I was basically doing a triangle like everybody
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  else, between my bed, my desk, my fridge, probably getting about 47 steps a day.
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  Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
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  Well that's real.
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  Right?
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  That's real.
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  And the difference between sedentary and what is moderately active
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  isn't just about your waistline, although for me that's important.
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  It's also about, you know, and it's becoming more important, this
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  whether I can remember where I left my keys as I'm approaching
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  17, quite a long distance future.
• 2:55
  Chris Smith: Exactly.
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  It's so important as we get older and like research has shown that
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  even just a, a 1000 step daily increase, it correlates with a, a 15%
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  reduction in all cause mortality risk.
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  So obviously it's massive.
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  Um, because as anyone with a fitness watch will tell you like 1000 steps.
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  It's not that far.
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  It's what?
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  Half a mile?
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  Jenny Oliver: Mm-hmm.
• 3:15
  So movement matters.
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  We all knew that, but why have we latched onto 10,000 as if it's written in stone?
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  Chris Smith: Okay.
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  I promised you a link to the Tokyo Olympics, which were back in 1964.
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  So here it goes.
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  So there's a company called Yamaha Toka, Kiki, I won't say that twice.
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  And they developed one of the first commercial pedometers,
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  or you know, step counters, and they called it the Manpo key.
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  Jenny Oliver: And the Manpo key translates to,
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  Chris Smith: you guessed it, the 10,000 step meter.
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  So the number, the 10,000 number was chosen for marketing reasons.
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  Uh, well plus.
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  The 10, the number 10,000 holds, like Japanese cultural significance is a
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  symbol of long life and prosperity too.
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  Matt Edmundson: So our entire fitness culture then is based on what a
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  Japanese character looked like.
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  So it looks like, uh, somebody walking feels a little bit like, you know, let's,
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  let's decide to eat eight meals a day, because that's the shape of a snowman.
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  Jenny Oliver: But someone must have done some science, right?
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  They didn't just pull it completely out of thin air.
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  Chris Smith: No, I mean, it is a good number.
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  Let, let's be honest to start with, but yeah, there was Waka an
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  academic at uh, Kishu University in Japan, and he was worried that
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  Japanese people were adopting.
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  Sedentary.
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  He called it American Lifestyles, you know, that was his words, not mine.
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  Um, so what he calculated that was increasing your daily steps
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  from 4,000 to 10,000 would burn approximately 500 extra calories.
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  So helping people to maintain their weight.
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  So that's got a, got a bit of science behind it too.
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  Jenny Oliver: So it was basically one guy with a calculator being
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  like, yeah, 10,000 sounds good.
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  And then a marketing team were already printing pedometers.
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  Chris Smith: Yeah, pretty much.
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  Um, but it's, of course, it's catchy, it's memorable.
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  And it, it's a round number and it's happened to stick.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
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  It must have.
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  'cause here we are, you know, whatever, 60 years later and we're still
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  aiming for the magic 10,000 steps.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Chris Smith: That's it.
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  But interestingly, like when researchers actually started studying step
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  counts and health outcomes associated with them, like decades later, they
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  found something quite interesting.
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  Jenny Oliver: What that 10 thousand's wrong,
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  Chris Smith: not wrong, but not.
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  Necessarily right either.
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  So there was a major study like Houston did with 160,000 older women,
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  and they found that taking just 4,400 steps, I think it was a day, had this
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  like 40% reduction in mortality risk compared to those taking only 2000
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  or two and a half thousand steps.
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  But that same study.
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  Also found those benefits appear to plateau at approximately
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  seven and a half thousand steps.
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  So what we're saying is it's not just a case of the more, the better forever,
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  there is a limit over and above which it doesn't really benefit you anymore,
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  Jenny Oliver: although I'm guessing it is more complicated than that.
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  So there's got to be individual variation because that's,
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  that's how biology works, right?
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  Chris Smith: And that's it.
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  And that's why, you know, these round numbers are useful in
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  general, but not always, right?
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  Because.
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  Yeah, it's, it's not always ideal to have this same aim for everybody.
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  It's got to be individual and uh, you know, it turns out that optimum step
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  counts vary dramatically based on age.
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  So for adults, over 60 benefits typically plateau at 8,000 to 10,000 steps.
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  Um, but for those 60 and over, it's actually a little bit less.
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  So those maximum benefits are about 6,000 to 8,000 steps.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Matt Edmundson: So I guess, you know, your grandparents are right then, aren't they?
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  When.
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  They were saying all along that a gentle walk was, was plenty of exercise for them.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Chris Smith: They know everything.
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  Yeah.
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  Grandparents.
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  Yeah.
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  Um, but there's also variation based on what health outcome
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  you're actually targeting.
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  So if we look at dementia, um, prevention specifically, research says
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  like 9,800 steps, I think it is, is the optimum amount for trying to lower
• 7:02
  that dementia risk by about half.
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  But if you look at cardiovascular health.
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  And lowering cardiovascular disease risk, then those
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  benefits continue for more steps.
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  So 10,000 to 13,000 steps still show benefits.
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  Jenny Oliver: So 10,000 wasn't completely arbitrary.
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  Then from a health perspective, it just happened to land in a reasonable zone for
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  certain populations and certain outcomes.
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  Chris Smith: Precisely So it was based on what was known, and it
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  still remains a good average figure.
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  It's just that as more research has become published.
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  Like, we know the daily step target should be far more individual
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  than we maybe previously thought,
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  Matt Edmundson: which is really interesting, isn't it?
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  And it, it connects with this idea then that people have wildly different, um,
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  step counts from their daily lives, right?
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  So someone working in retail.
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  It is gonna hit 15,000 steps a day without trying while someone like me, maybe who
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  works at a desk, is gonna struggle, I don't know, to reach two or 3000 steps.
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  Chris Smith: Yeah.
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  And that really brings us to why this matters because if you look
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  at the research, and this won't surprise anybody, that the biggest
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  health gains come from moving from a sedentary position to someone
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  who becomes more moderately active.
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  So if you picture that as a curve, it's going to go up quite steeply, isn't it?
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  'cause you, you start off doing nothing.
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  And then you are increasing to do something.
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  But then let, so let's say you've gone from 2000 steps to 5,000 steps.
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  That's a massive increase and you get big health improvements.
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  If you then go from 5,000 to 8,000, you get some more benefits, maybe
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  not quite as much, but from 10,015 there might be an extra benefit,
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  but it's gonna be relatively small.
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  So it's all about getting going and just keeping an eye on it,
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  but not necessarily just aiming for that arbitrary single figure.
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  Matt Edmundson: So, okay, so let's get this, maybe let's zoom in a little bit.
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  Make it a bit more practical for, you know, real people.
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  Um, because I, we all know someone who's deeply obsessed with their step
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  count, um, versus the whole person, you know, the person that maybe the
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  thinks the whole thing is nonsense.
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  Chris Smith: It's a great point.
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  I mean, we know it's important.
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  So for older adults, as an example, you know, taking as few as I think 6,000
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  steps per day, it's associated with this massive reduction in mortality risk.
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  So we know even a very small increases in daily steps provide dramatic effects.
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  So.
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  Skepticism is understandable, but we know the science is there, but it's
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  just not always as big a jump as people necessarily think it needs to be,
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  Jenny Oliver: which makes sense when you think about biology.
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  You know, older people might have mobility limitations, joint tissues,
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  and naturally just move more slowly.
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  So expecting a 70-year-old to hit the same target as a
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  30-year-old is just a bit silly.
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  Matt Edmundson: Well, it is until you try telling it.
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  To, you know, the, the mum who's in that sort of competitive step counting
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  group with her friends from aqua aerobics and you know, they've got
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  the WhatsApp group, which is where they screenshot their step count.
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  It feels a bit.
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  You know, it can be a bit intense, maybe more intense in
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  our fantasy football league.
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  Jenny Oliver: Oh, nothing's more intense than that.
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  Matt Edmundson: It does get intense.
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  Chris Smith: Yeah.
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  I mean, you do touch on something important, and I'm not talking
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  about the fantasy football yet,
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  Matt Edmundson: but that is important.
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  Chris Smith: It is important, but I'm talking about motivation.
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  So like the, the 10,000 step goal, like regardless of its Origin.
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  It provides this kind of clear target that people can understand and work towards.
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  And sometimes, you know, having a, a simple memorable number, it is more
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  valuable and more achievable than a complex, personalized recommendation, even
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  Jenny Oliver: if it's not scientifically perfect,
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  Chris Smith: even then, you know, it can be demotivating for some though.
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  So if you think of, you know, that 10,000 figure, if you are an individual
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  with, uh, chronic conditions, you might average anywhere between
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  1000 and 9,000 steps per day.
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  So.
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  Yeah, that's a, it's a massive window of variation.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  So you imagine someone at the lower end of that scale trying
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  to strive for 10,000 steps a day.
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  It can feel impossible and discouraging when it might be actually a long
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  way from what they actually need.
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  So we do need to be careful.
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  Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
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  Because it's easy to not do something because you think,
• 11:02
  well, I can't hit that, that goal.
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  Right.
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  That target.
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  So why bother?
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Chris Smith: Exactly.
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  And as I touched on earlier, a small number of steps can make a big difference.
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  You know, we're talking two, 2000 to 3000 additional steps per day.
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  It can provide meaningful health improvements, even say, for those
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  groups with chronic conditions.
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  So the message to everybody, every demographic group, is some is better.
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  You know, that's the crucial message.
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  Some kind of increase, some improvement is better.
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  Jenny Oliver: And there's also like physical variations to consider.
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  Um, we're all different heights.
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  Leg length, the step effects, step frequency.
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  And a study found that.
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  For moderate intensity, walking, people who are like five foot tall might take
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  111 steps per minute while someone who's six foot six might only take, say 85.
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  Matt Edmundson: So,
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  and also I find I have a shorter step if I wear barefoot
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  shoes just putting out there.
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  Um, so maybe a universal step.
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  Mm count or a step target doesn't account for someone's height and also doesn't
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  account for someone's build, right?
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  So different people, different heights, different builds are gonna get different
• 12:12
  cardiovascular workouts, I suppose, um, based on how much they walk.
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  Chris Smith: Yep.
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  And the other thing is intensity, because the one thing we haven't touched on yet
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  is that not all steps are created equally.
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  Jenny Oliver: But you've not said that before.
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  Chris Smith: I know
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  Matt Edmundson: that's a T-shirt slogan, if ever I heard one.
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  Chris Smith: Definitely.
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  So step quality, meaning intensity, is as important as quantity.
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  So if you think about walking a hundred steps per minute for 30
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  minutes or 50 steps per minute for 60 minutes, it's the same steps, right?
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  But the faster pace will provide additional benefits.
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  Matt Edmundson: So coming back to what you were saying earlier, shuffling
• 12:48
  around your house at midnight to hit the 10,000 steps isn't the same
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  then as actually walking briskly.
• 12:55
  Chris Smith: No, exactly.
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  And there was a, a study in 2024 and it found that people engaging in at least
• 13:01
  15 minutes of uh, what they call like fast walking daily, they experience
• 13:06
  nearly 20% decreased mortality risk.
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  So that intensity does matter,
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  Jenny Oliver: which explains why my steps that mostly involve walking
• 13:15
  from room to room while I'm working from home don't quite give me the
• 13:18
  same glow as when I actually go for a good walk around the block.
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  Matt Edmundson: Shocking.
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  Jenny Oliver: Shocking.
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  Matt Edmundson: So practically speaking, then, what should
• 13:27
  we, what should we actually do?
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  Right?
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  Because I think most people were hearing this.
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  We'll be confused about what their target should actually be.
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  Chris Smith: Yeah, so our advice would always be try and start by
• 13:40
  understanding your current activity level.
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  So if you track it for a week and see where you actually are.
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  So it might be 1000 steps a day.
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  It might be 3000 steps a day.
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  It might be three, four steps a day, probably a few more
• 13:52
  than that, but whatever that number, that's the start point.
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  And then gradually increase it by 1000 or 2000 steps per day until you
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  reach a number that feels right, and I guarantee you, you'll feel better.
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  You know, you'll start to find what is your kind of personally appropriate
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  target and it that will start to become clear in your mind and in your body.
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  Jenny Oliver: And so what, what is personally appropriate?
• 14:13
  Chris Smith: So I, I guess if we're looking at it as a rule of thumb, we
• 14:16
  can take most, like adults under 60.
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  We're looking at between 7,000, 10,000 steps per day for adults over 60, a
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  little bit less, 6,000 to 8,000 steps per day for people with chronic conditions.
• 14:29
  Getting to four or 5,000 steps can be really meaningful in terms,
• 14:32
  in terms of health benefits.
• 14:33
  Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
• 14:35
  That's really, really good.
• 14:36
  That, and the other thing of course, to throw into this is life happens.
• 14:40
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:40
  Right?
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  So some days you're gonna hit your target because you got lost in ikea, you know,
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  and it takes you four days to get out.
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  Other times you, you might just hit the 2000 steps a day because you are ill
• 14:51
  or you are busy, or you know, we live in England, it does rain a lot, and we
• 14:54
  might not be bothered to go outside.
• 14:56
  Chris Smith: No, totally.
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  And.
• 14:58
  You know, that that routine matters.
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  So there was a really important, um, piece of research that came out that
• 15:04
  it showed that 8,000 steps or more on just one to two days a week, um,
• 15:09
  provide the mortality benefits compared to someone constantly having far less.
• 15:14
  So it just showed that the, the kind of the weekend warrior approach isn't always
• 15:18
  ideal, but it's still better than nothing.
• 15:21
  Jenny Oliver: And what about people that aren't necessarily doing steps, but
• 15:24
  they're doing other forms of exercise like cycling or swimming Should.
• 15:27
  Should, should they still care about steps?
• 15:30
  Chris Smith: Yeah.
• 15:30
  Such an important question because of course steps are only
• 15:32
  one metric of physical activity.
• 15:34
  Mm. Right.
• 15:34
  So like health guidelines typically recommend 150 minutes.
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  What's that?
• 15:39
  Two and a half hours of, uh, like moderately intensive
• 15:43
  aerobic activity per week.
• 15:45
  But that can come from any form of movement.
• 15:47
  So steps, they do provide an easy to track method, but of course
• 15:50
  it's not a complete picture.
• 15:51
  Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
• 15:52
  I mean, I always say to people, the best exercise that.
• 15:55
  You should do is one that you will actually do.
• 15:57
  Right,
• 15:58
  Chris Smith: exactly.
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  So whether that's walking or cycling or swimming or dancing
• 16:02
  around a kitchen like I do,
• 16:04
  movement.
• 16:04
  Movement.
• 16:04
  Matt Edmundson: Some things I don't need to see or picture in
• 16:07
  my mind, if I'm honest with you.
• 16:09
  Jenny Oliver: Okay.
• 16:09
  So we've learned that 10,000 steps came from marketing.
• 16:12
  That research suggests lower numbers are often sufficient and
• 16:17
  that individual variation matters.
• 16:19
  But I'm curious like.
• 16:22
  How this connects to other health concepts.
• 16:25
  Um, when we think about how does step count affect sleep?
• 16:28
  Chris Smith: Yeah.
• 16:28
  Massively.
• 16:28
  So, so if you look at like, the realities of it, so a higher, like daily step count,
• 16:34
  it's directly associated with better sleep quality, but also reduced time to
• 16:38
  fall asleep and more time in deep sleep.
• 16:42
  So that relationship works both ways too.
• 16:44
  So better sleep leads to more energy for activity the next day, but more energy
• 16:48
  and activity leads to better sleep.
• 16:50
  Mm-hmm.
• 16:50
  Matt Edmundson: Well, it's not a surprise, right?
• 16:51
  'cause everything's connected.
• 16:52
  So your movement affects your sleep and your sleep, um, affects your
• 16:57
  mood and that affects your motivation to, to Do, you know what I mean?
• 17:01
  It, it, it, it all works together.
• 17:02
  Jenny Oliver: Yeah.
• 17:03
  And it's definitely the mental health component.
• 17:04
  You know, that study we mentioned earlier?
• 17:06
  Found a 22% reduction in depression risk at 7,000 steps compared to 2000 steps.
• 17:13
  I mean, that's huge.
• 17:14
  That's substantial.
• 17:15
  Chris Smith: It is.
• 17:16
  It's massive.
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  And the whole thing is, it's a reminder that all of these health
• 17:19
  behaviors, they're not isolated.
• 17:21
  So step counts are really rough indicator for overall activity level.
• 17:26
  But that influences everything.
• 17:27
  It influences health in general wellbeing.
• 17:29
  Jenny Oliver: Mm-hmm.
• 17:29
  Matt Edmundson: Although, let's be honest, you know, we've all
• 17:31
  had those days, haven't we?
• 17:33
  Where we've, we've checked our step count and we either one or two emotions,
• 17:37
  we either sort of feel really smug or we kind of feel really guilty.
• 17:41
  But all of this, all of this is based on a number invented by a marketing team
• 17:47
  in 1964, and we're complicit in this.
• 17:52
  Well, is it madness?
• 17:53
  But we are complicit in it.
• 17:54
  Right.
• 17:55
  Jenny Oliver: True, but maybe the real value isn't the specific number, but
• 17:58
  the awareness it creates, like before fitness trackers, I guess I had no idea
• 18:03
  how little I actually moved on some days.
• 18:06
  Chris Smith: Yeah, I totally agree.
• 18:07
  It is so important to have that target.
• 18:08
  And the thing about tracking is it, it creates awareness, doesn't it?
• 18:11
  Which it can motivate and it can change your behavior.
• 18:14
  So whether that goal is 7,000 steps or 10,000 steps is that's less important
• 18:19
  than having a goal in the first place that actually gets you off the sofa.
• 18:22
  Jenny Oliver: So to answer our original question, why did
• 18:24
  we chase 10,000 steps a day?
• 18:27
  Chris Smith: So we chase it because a clever marketing campaign, um,
• 18:31
  back in 1964, gave us this memorable round number that happened to
• 18:35
  pretty much align well with health benefits uncovered decades later.
• 18:39
  So 10,000 steps as a daily target's not wrong.
• 18:42
  It's just not universally right either.
• 18:44
  Matt Edmundson: And because the Japanese character for 10,000 looks like a
• 18:48
  person walking, which is simultaneously the most charming and delightful,
• 18:54
  but also the most absurd reason for a global health recommendation,
• 18:59
  I think I've heard for a while.
• 19:02
  Jenny Oliver: So that's why 10,000 steps became the magic number.
• 19:05
  And more importantly, you now know that the actual magic happens at a
• 19:10
  much lower step count than you thought.
• 19:13
  The biggest gains come from simply moving from sedentary to moderately active.
• 19:19
  Chris Smith: Exactly.
• 19:19
  And the key point is some movement is infinitely better than none.
• 19:23
  So whether you hit 5,000 steps or 10,000 steps, that matters less than
• 19:28
  constantly or consistently trying to move more than you did before.
• 19:31
  So the best step count is the one that's sustainable for your life,
• 19:35
  your body, and your circumstances.
• 19:38
  Matt Edmundson: And maybe I can, you know, maybe we can all sort of become
• 19:41
  less obsessive about our, about checking our step count at 11 o'clock at night.
• 19:46
  Yeah.
• 19:46
  Jenny Oliver: Although your midnight living room laps do technically count.
• 19:50
  That's it for this week.
• 19:51
  Make sure you hit that subscribe button as we're gonna be unpacking the science
• 19:55
  behind everyday questions each week.
• 19:58
  And tell us in the comments what questions you'd like us to explore.
• 20:02
  Thanks for geeking out with us, but for now, that's it from me.
• 20:06
  Matt Edmundson: That's it from me,
• 20:07
  Chris Smith: and that's it from me.
• 20:08
  Jenny Oliver: Bye.