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The Sexuality Spectrum · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I am your host, Matt Lansdell, and joining me today is Michael Diorio and Reno Johnston. Today we are talking about the sexuality spectrum, and we're going to be exploring questions like, what do you align with around the sexuality spectrum? How have your sexual preferences changed over the years? And how do you go about getting your sexual needs met? So we're talking about sex today, folks. What we want you to get out of today's episode, basically, a greater awareness of the sexuality spectrum and where you might identify on the spectrum. We believe it is very important to understand the spectrum because you will likely share sexual experiences with people that are on different places on the spectrum than you. And knowing what people's desires and needs are on the sexuality spectrum can enrich your own sex life by fostering things like trust and safety and greater intimacy by understanding that people are going to maybe desire different things than you. But that doesn't mean that you can't have enriching experiences with these people. If you are new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. If you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe and leave us a review which helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. Okay, so what is the sexuality spectrum? Well, I've broken it down into two things. This is a very challenging thing to try and conceptualize. I broke it down into a sexuality spectrum and a sex spectrum. So we're kind of going to be talking about two different spectrums. I look at the sexuality spectrum as a spectrum of different ways that people define and express their sexuality that influences the type of sex that they engage in. Okay, so as gay men, that's one of the things that we can identify on the sexuality spectrum. The type of sex that we would engage in would be with gay men. Right? But we can even take it a step further and look at the types of sex that we enjoy having. Could be like, casual sex, anonymous sex, passionate sex, like that sort of thing. We're not going to be talking about, like, anal and vaginal and oral and that sort of stuff in this episode, unfortunately, folks, but we are going to unpack more. So. And then I look at the sex spectrum as the spectrum of different ways people define and express the type of sex that they enjoy having. Okay. Ultimately, your sexuality will influence the type of sex that you have. Right? What influences where we might be on the spectrum on either of these two things. So sexuality or sex. The first one is genetics. Right? Genetics plays a part in all of us. Epigenetics. These types of considerations are important. Our sexual and social conditioning. So how we view sex through our culture, through our family. Maybe we were shamed for, for having certain desires and that changed us and put us in a different direction from our authenticity. Maybe we have fears and anxieties around sex because of our social conditioning. Maybe we learn to shame other people for their sexual preferences. So that keeps us stuck in not being able to move towards our authenticity. So different factors related to sexual and social conditioning can play into this as well. Our sexual needs and desires. Right? So when we do start moving on the path of authenticity and we start connecting to what we actually truly desire and need, that's going to be a big, a big factor of this. I'm a firm believer that our sexuality is influenced greatly by our needs and desires and what we want. How we choose to express our sexuality is a big, a big part of this because how we choose to express our sexuality will be what we get back. Right? And that can also influence our sexual evolution. If we express certain things from our sexual sexuality, we might attract somebody who teaches us something new that we might enjoy. Um, so that can influence where we land on the spectrum as well. So the influence of other people, our sexual expression comes from our needs and desires and how we go about getting those needs met. Sexual frequency, definitely. So how much sex we enjoy having. Some people are very sexual, some people aren't as sexual. So that can influence where we are on the spectrum. Who you have sex with. So, you know, sex, gender, age, race, all these sorts of things can influence. And then the types of sex that we enjoy having I think is really important. So I gathered some information. I was very ignorant prior to this. I didn't even know half of these terms, to be completely honest. So I will attach a link in the show notes from a resource called choosingtherapy.com backslash types of sexuality. So that'll be in the show notes if you want to go and do some more research on these. Because I only chose 11 of the 25. I'm not going to sit here and teach all of them. That's just too much. But feel free to go and educate yourself. And I'm just going to do a very brief overview. I tried my best to align them in the spectrum because basically these are like asexuality to allosexuality. Asexuality being a non sexual being. Allosexuality being somebody who has sexual attraction. Right. So I kind of tried to base it on that. Starting with asexuality. This would be somebody who's not sexual at all. They don't experience sexual attraction. Gray sexuality is somebody who's not asexual. But they're not as sexual as most folks. They're somewhere in between. So maybe they go through periods of feeling sexual and then they're not, they go more dormant. So it could look like that demisexuality is requiring an emotional connection for sexual arousal. Sapiosexuality is requiring a intellectual connection for sexual arousal. So you get your. With these two, you're very much governed based off of the head and the heart. Those are your sexual organs or at least the entrance point to arousing your other sexual organs. Then you have andro and gynesexual, which would be people who. Androsexuality is people who are attracted to masculinity. And gynosexuality would be people who are attracted to femininity. So that could even be as gay men, you could be attracted to other gay men who exhibit more feminine traits. Right. So it doesn't just have to be for, you know, cisgendered straight males that are attracted to females. And then you have allotroposexuality, which is attraction to trans non binary people. And this is relatively new term used to replace scoliosexual. It refers to individuals whose primary attraction is to transgender or non binary individual. The term does not refer to the fetishing, feticization or sexualization or objectification of trans people by cisgendered individuals. That's important to note. So this would be their primary attraction, bisexuality, both male and female. And then sexually fluid is somebody who, their sexuality is constantly changing over time. So they might have different experiences. So these people would probably tend to be more sexually open. And you know, their sexuality can change over time. Then you have pansexuality or omnisexuality, which is all people attracted to all people, regardless of sexual or gender. And then allosexuality refers to those who experience sexual attraction in general. So I think the three of us are sexual creatures. So we would, the three of us would be allosexuals and then the sex spectrum. I just kind of came up with a few. I would be curious to know, like, you guys might have more to add to this. But again, I tried to line them on the spectrum as much as I could. So on one side of the spectrum you Might have like more anonymous sex, casual hookup type sex. And then moving along, it could look like committed or relationship sex, passionate sex, emotionally engaged sex, intellectually stimulated sex, lovemaking, tantric sex, which would be more energetic explorations of sex. So that's my way of conceptualizing it. But let's start with our first question. I'm curious for you, Reno. Where do you align on the sexuality spectrum? What do you align with?
• 7:29
  Speaker B: It sounds like it's been an evolution, I'd say where I currently find myself probably like passionate love making. Tantric was introduced in more recent years actually, because I was. Well, I was somewhat aware of it in my late 20s, but I connected to a community of, I guess what we call here in North America specifically sacred intimates. And I started learning all of these different ways to engage sexually that were rooted in tantric principles. I was like, oh, this is interesting. Okay. And funny enough, intuitively I found myself engaged in some of those activities unknowingly. Like just. It was like my intuition just kind of picked up on some of these things and I was like, oh, that's called tantra. I didn't know that. Which in a lot of ways would be conscious sexuality and sexual exploration. I guess in a way, when you were listing off the different types of sexuality, I noticed there were some that seemed to apply to me. Like sometimes I find myself in gray sexual realm, but I'm going to say, like, not so much I'm a pretty turned on, sensual person. But, you know, demisexual, sapio, sexual androgyn, sexually fluid. Like these all resonated with me for sure. And one of the things I noticed is that maybe in earlier years when I was just discovering my sexuality, I probably would have been less. Not only less aware of these distinctions, but also they wouldn't have mattered as much. You know, I would have just been like humping a pillow or like, you know, jerking off with a friend or something like that. Or just like dry humping somebody and being dry humped by someone. Right. It didn't matter. It's just like, oh, this thing. Like, it feels good, you know, I mean, it. Obviously it did matter. Like, you know, there were people who are into me and people I was into and that sort of thing. But it's interesting to consider the sort of maturation that took place over a period of time that was like, oh, okay. I'm noticing there are some preferences here. You know, like, emotional connection is really important to me suddenly. Or like intellectuals really turn me on. Like, if you fuck my mind My body will follow. You know, that's interesting. And then even having a preference, I think, for masculinity at one point, and then kind of doing my own work around having. Well, actually, to be honest, doing my work in general around masculinity and femininity, both within myself and then out in the world as it's expressed, that was also healing because it kind of opened me up to relating differently to masculinity and femininity within myself, within the bedroom, and as it's expressed through my sexual partners. Right. So I would say that's sort of my answer to that question at this point. It's like. And again, it's. This is all very fresh for me. So I'm like, what else could I say? I'm sure more will come up later.
• 10:53
  Speaker A: So when I say the most memorable sexual experience you've ever had, what's the first thing that comes to mind?
• 10:59
  Speaker B: Yeah, okay. It was with my ex partner. This is a good question, actually, because I don't know if this is why you asked it, but it seems like a sort of gateway to what stands out or what resonates most. And then in that, you can kind of find the pieces that made it memorable. This is a good question. Well done. Yeah. Because it was. It was really connected and it was really intentional. And I've told this story on the podcast before, but what made it so significant was that I was breaking through a personal sexual barrier. Up until that point, they had been quite closed off to penetration. And so it was amazing to curate an experience that gradually, over, you know, minutes and hours, like, opened my mind and my body and then resulted in this ecstatic, amazing, obviously memorable pleasure and experience. So that stands out to me. And just the intentionality and being with someone who I felt safe with and someone who loved me, and then the whole, like, setting, you know, from the candles to the music to the energy and the warmth of the room and the way it unfolded, you know, there was so much there. The bubble bath prior to. And the lap dance prior to that. And, you know, but it was a whole thing. I was like, I'm into this. Yeah, good question. Wow.
• 12:29
  Speaker A: Sign me up.
• 12:30
  Speaker B: Exactly.
• 12:30
  Speaker A: I took away, like, warmth, safety, connection, just this feeling of, like, being held and.
• 12:37
  Speaker B: Yeah, major, major, definitely. And then, yeah, like, even as I'm listening to you say those words, I can feel my body start to, like. Like, I can feel the resonance in my body. I can feel my body start to, like, come alive and open, you know, so that says something. Thank you.
• 12:54
  Speaker A: I love that.
• 12:55
  Speaker B: Michael, what about you?
• 12:57
  Speaker C: This is a tough one, guys. I mean, thank you, Matt, for giving me something that I was taking notes while you were writing. I feel like I was a little student and while the teacher was teaching. This is a tough one for me. I. I'm feeling like a resistance to want to answer. Because for me it's so highly dependent and I guess the word fluid comes to mind or very inconsistent. So, like, there's a part of me that like, wants to resist putting a label on anything just because I don't want you or any audience listener like, oh, Michael' like this just put me in a box. And that's it. Because it really does depend. Some things are pretty consistent throughout, but a lot of it depends on the environment of where I am, the person who I'm with, the circumstances, my mood, what my needs are like. And I can, in typical me fashion, adapt to all kinds of different things. So I will totally be able to have a great time with a random stranger in a dark room, for sure. Easy peasy. I could also love and enjoy the, you know, getting to know somebody and taking it slow and then having sexual intimacy be part of that down the road, like, letting it build and simmer slowly. And I love that. And that's amazing too. So I can do it all from that. I'm not like, you know, from casual to more romantic demi. Like, I can swing on both sides of it. The one thing that I would say is consistent is what we. I think you called it Android. Being attracted to more masculine features, right? Yeah, that is pretty consistent throughout. Like, no matter where. Where I am or what the situation is, I tend to be more attracted to those typically stereotypically masculine type of features. So I don't know. I mean, I fall on the spectrum a lot of different places, I guess. I guess fluidity makes the most sense for me. And it really depends. Like, you know, right now, what is it Friday today? It's Friday night. I'm in Milan and I have a date tonight with some guy that I met on Grindr. And because of his profile, which was like wanting to get to know somebody and, you know, he just had this really great profile with super sexy eye. We're going on a date after this. So my mind right now is in, like, we're going to get to know each other. We're going to have a great time. We're going to go to this party together. Sex is not off the table, but it's not on the table either. It's kind of like I Guess we'll see how we vibe. And so my mood right now is like, I want to get to know somebody. I want to have a good time. I want to have a bit of. A Bit of an adventure. So, yeah, it's kind of more. I don't know about Demi, but what Reno said about fucking my mind is also very true for me.
• 15:16
  Speaker A: Like.
• 15:16
  Speaker C: Yeah, like, if anyone could appeal to my mind, then, yeah, he definitely has an advantage of getting in my booty, too.
• 15:24
  Speaker A: I love that. It's very Gemini.
• 15:26
  Speaker C: Yeah, it's hard to. It's hard to pin down. And I'm like, I don't really want to be pinned down either. Well, not in that way.
• 15:32
  Speaker A: Yeah, so I think you'd be. You'd be. Definitely be more on the fluid spectrum. Sure.
• 15:36
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 15:36
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 15:37
  Speaker C: Wait.
• 15:37
  Speaker B: Do the thing, Matt. Do the thing. Do the thing you just did.
• 15:40
  Speaker A: What is your most. When I say your most memorable sexual experience, what comes to mind?
• 15:46
  Speaker C: Well, the one that comes to mind is my first one. The very first time I had sex, just because it was the first and it was special and kind of magical and my heart was beating. So that's the first one that comes to mind. But it's just because it was the first. I don't know. But I would say one that often comes to mind is my very first time I discovered cruising by accident. I was walking home from a bar and I took a shortcut through Queen's park in Toronto to get back to my house. I had just moved to Toronto and Queens Park, Little did I know is a big cruising hotspot. So little old me walking down the path at like 3 o'clock in the morning, and there was a super hot guy that walked by, and he kind of looked at me and I looked at him, and then he. We kind of looked back and we both did the look back. Luckily, I mean, I was a little bit drunk at the time, so I had a bit more courage. I don't know if I would have done this had I been sober. And he kind of, you know, does a little head nod to come over here, like into the. Under a tree, kind of in the wooded area. And I was like, the fuck is happening right now? But I did it. And lo and behold, there are, like all these other pockets of guys having all kinds of sex. And I'm like, what is happening right now? And things happened. And that was the first time I had discovered what it. Like what cruising even is. And that was, I think, the reason it comes to mind for me and the reason I often think about it is the emotional impression it had on my body. Like, my heart was racing. I was terrified and turned on all at the same time. And all these emotions at once were just a lot. And so it left a mark, right? It left an indelible mark on me. And ever since then, I've been, like, really turned on by cruising. I still enjoy it. I still think it's great and a lot of adrenaline and a lot of fun.
• 17:21
  Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. If I were navigating sex and sexuality, I would definitely come to you. I feel like you're. You're very knowledgeable. You have kind of, you know, probably because of the versatility, right?
• 17:32
  Speaker C: Yeah. But, I mean, at the same time, party feels like I want to also say, like, that is not the only thing that turns me on. I will and have often when I jerk off, when I masturbate, think of the kind of sex I had with boyfriends. Right. And just that beautiful level of, like, intimacy and connection that I'm. And, like, that will still get me off. Like, I'll go back to those memories when I'm dragging off, and that'll make me come. Even if I'm doing something else, like, watching something else when it's time to come, I will go back to that memory of a certain boyfriend I had and how he felt inside me or whatever.
• 18:02
  Speaker B: Oof.
• 18:03
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 18:03
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 18:04
  Speaker C: Hopefully.
• 18:04
  Speaker B: You know, as you were saying what you just said, Matt, I had this thought, too. It's like, Michael's the sex guy, you're the relating guy, and I'm the romance guy. I feel like if I were to come to each of us for, like, a thing, it'd be like, yeah, you for relating, Michael for sex and me for romance. I think, cool.
• 18:23
  Speaker A: We make a good team.
• 18:24
  Speaker B: We do.
• 18:26
  Speaker C: But at the same time, though, I have to say, like, one thing. I don't know if we talked about or if it was on there, Matt is, like, the kink spectrum. Like, I wouldn't consider myself kinky, really, at all. Besides maybe some cruising stuff that I enjoy or whatever, but, like, that's a whole spectrum on its own.
• 18:40
  Speaker A: Totally.
• 18:41
  Speaker C: Maybe more. More vanilla versus more kink. I would say I'm far more on the vanilla side.
• 18:45
  Speaker A: Yeah, ditto. Yeah, I'm definitely vanilla. I'm. I would say I gravitate towards the. Obviously, Demi and Sapio, for sure. Those are the two things for me. So intellectual conversing, intellectual conversation that leads to emotional expression and vulnerability is my bread and butter. I just. I love that. I think for me it's just all about safety. It's about safety, it's about trust, it's about rapport, it's about knowing that this person is a good person. They're going to like handle my body with care. So I like more slowed down ways of moving towards sex because I definitely would not want to put myself in a situation where somebody takes advantage of my body or they don't respect this like beautiful gift that I'm offering up. You know what I mean? Like, I view my body as like a temple and I view sex as temp, as like sacred. So yeah, I like to slow things down and I like to. Which means my sexual frequency is lower for sure. Do I want it that way? Probably not. But how I know I'm demi is that my sexual self is quite dormant until I meet somebody. And once I start getting to know them and I start connecting with them, it's like my sexual self just explodes and I become actually very hypersexual in relationships, which is a beautiful feeling. I love being, I love being very sexual. But again, I want to make sure that I'm, I'm doing it with people that feel safe and good. And that doesn't mean I have to have a love or a relationship to do this. It just means that there's, there's time that it takes in order for my, my nervous system, my body to feel like safe to want to connect. And how it feels safe is through emotional and intellectual connection. And I also want to know the person's a good person and that they're like intelligent and that I'm turning my body over to somebody that's like, can match me, you know, Like, I think that's a, that's a big thing for me. So. And then I was thinking I'm like, yes, I'm very, I'm definitely androsexual. I am really solely attracted to masculinity. I'm not really attracted to femininity in others, but I'm attracted to femininity in myself. My own femininity is what I like. I'm aroused when I'm. When I think of like being aroused or attracted to myself, which is something I'm like coming into now, more like later in my life is like, you know, like feeling sexy and like feeling aroused by like just connecting with my own sexual energy, that energy is more feminine and I feel the energy of the masculine wanting to come and like take my feminine energy. Like it's, it's a really interesting. So I think that's where this Tantric stuff comes into play. Like, I love playing with tantric. Tantric energy. And tantric sexuality I think is very. It's profound. I've had amazing sex with past partners in exploring this realm, the sexual area. So I think that's. That kind of sums it up for me. I wouldn't say I'm sexually fluid, but my sexuality has changed over time, which we're going to be talking about in the next question. But. Okay.
• 21:33
  Speaker B: Oh, wait. What was your most memorable sexuality?
• 21:37
  Speaker C: Well, it's not off the hook now.
• 21:39
  Speaker A: Yeah, it might not be my most memorable.
• 21:41
  Speaker C: What?
• 21:42
  Speaker A: The first thing that came to my mind was just having. I was dating a guy who was very avoidant prior and had very, very attachment trauma sexual, which can be really hot, which is like, you're not giving me what I need, but you show up during sex and it feels so good. So it's like breadcrumbing and then when you finally get the breadcrumbs, it feels good. So that sex can be good, but it's like very. It's painful on the heart, but it's good on the body and the arousal. But then I met a guy who was quite anxious after that, and I dated him for about 10 months and him and I had the most amazing sex. So it. It's just. I always think about that sex whenever I go back to it. It was very connected. He kind of knew my body and all my spots. He was highly, highly attuned. Like, that's the thing about anxiously attached people is they're very attuned to your needs and they're, you know, they leave self to go to others. So they're. They're usually sexual pleasers. So he, like, knew all my buttons and he was very attuned to me. So that was good because sometimes, you know, some guys don't know how to deal with certain things or they don't jerk you the right way or. And it's like, oh my God. And it's like you feel like you have to take them through a whole tutorial of like, how to pleasure you, which, you know, it's. It happens in relationships, but then you have the type of sex that the person just gets you. And like, it's like empaths, they can just feel where you feel pleasure and they move to that part of your body. And I'm like, oh my God, this is amazing. So that allows me to like, surrender, let go. I don't have to worry about controlling my own orgasm or like leading them towards. Towards that. So. So, yeah, that really stands out as. As memorable for me. Yeah.
• 23:12
  Speaker B: Thanks for sharing.
• 23:13
  Speaker A: Yeah. All right, so if you're enjoying these discussions, you can come and have these discussions with us on the last Thursday of every month. In the Gaiman's Brotherhood, we have sharing circles and we have connection circles where we're going to have these conversations. So our sharing circles are larger format and one person sharing at a time. We're listening. We're holding space for somebody to share. If this feels too intimidating for you can come to our connection circles, which is just like this. The three of us hold space for each other to share and reveal ourselves and our experiences. That's what we. We create space for you to do the same thing. If you wish to come. Those happen on the second Thursday of the month. If you want to learn more, you can go to gaymensbrotherhood.com check out our event section to RSVP. If you don't have Facebook, you can get on our email list and we'll email you the zoom link for the sharing circles. And I'd be remiss if I didn't turn it on to the audience. So I want you to pause and think, what is your most memorable sexual experience? And reflect on that. What made that experience memorable for you? And that might point you in the direction of your needs and your desires and what. What you're actually really desiring from. From your. Your sexuality or your sex? All right, Reno, how have your sexual preferences changed over the years?
• 24:27
  Speaker B: Well, I mean, as I mentioned earlier, I went from humping pillows to humping men. No. Well, I'll say this. So, you know, I go back in time to when I was first introduced to myself as a sexual being. And what I can remember is just this. What I would describe now is sort of discovering my turn on. Right? It's like, oh, wow, okay, cool. That's there. And then kind of becoming curious about that and sort of exploring the breadth and depth of it. And I think what that looked like was just like, you know, friends who were also curious and somewhat aware, and there's like, touching and, you know, like, poking and sort of looking at things. And, you know, when you're that young, you kind of don't know, like, what's going on. Oh, yours has like this flap and, like, mine doesn't like that sort of thing. And then as time went on. And again, I think it's important to mention that it's probably similar for heterosexual people, but not entirely, because a lot of the sex that was happening for me and the sexuality that was happening for me was kind of like hidden, right? It was on the down low because God forbid I get caught. And so there was MSN groups back then. And maybe I can remember going, like, skinny dipping with this guy in the neighborhood, and us kind of swimming between each other's legs, underwater, playfully, and that escalating into something sexual, right? Which is really interesting and hot too. So, you know, it just happened kind of sporadically and spontaneously and unexpectedly. And as time went on, I guess I started to discover what I was interested in and what I wasn't. And I think one of the most significant moments for me as far as, like, when I would say my sexuality really jumped off. And I've shared this on here. But when I was 16 and I. I don't say I gain I lost my virginity. I say I gained my sexual prowess in a threesome. And just that whole experience was amazing because I feel like I really came into my sexual confidence. And I think what I noticed is that as I mentioned earlier, intellect, emotionality, intentionality, context, connection, safety, as you mentioned, Matt, like all of these things, intimacy, all became increasingly important to me. And it's not to say that I can't still go to a bathhouse and observe or be watched and witnessed in my pleasure. I may be inclined to do a bit of touching, but not anything extensive. Because I will say this is something I'm realizing as I'm saying it out loud is that I'm pretty exclusive when it comes to my body. And that's just a preference of mine. So I was talking to my friend about this last night, funny enough, my heterosexual friend. I was saying, like, I haven't bottomed a lot, and I generally don't unless we're in relationship. It's just not something that I do. And so I think that that's been interesting to notice as well. There's kind of this, like, monogamous in me or this, like, you know, you talked about committed relationship. I think in order to enter me in that way, like, there needs to be some of that. So I'd say that's present. And then I did write something down I just remembered, which is that I've become more attracted to feminine energy over the years as I've become more connected to my own masculinity, which has been really interesting. So I had a sexual partner a while ago, and actually there were two of them. And I remember one of them saying to me, like, oh, you're so. Like, you're so manly. Like, you're so Masculine. And he was just, like, really into my beard and my chest hair. And I remember because he was so, I guess, in his feminine, it made it so easy for me to be in my masculine. So I can remember, like, picking him up and, like, wrapping his legs around me and, like, laying him out on the bed, you know, and it was just, like, really, really hot. And I don't express that side of me a lot in the bedroom, so I'm even discovering new things about myself as we speak, you know? But fundamentally, I'm a romantic, you know, like, even at the bathhouse, probably. You know what I mean? Like, I'm a romantic. I mean, the last thing I'll say is I met a guy at ferry camp last weekend, and I noticed that, like, as we were parting ways on, like, the last day, I said to him, you know, like, I'm a lover and a romantic and whatever. And I could see, like, I could see him crack a smile, and I could almost feel the resonance, like, radiating off of him when I said that. And I felt so seen. Like, he nodded, too, because he got it, you know, and this is someone who I just met, but he was like. I could tell he knew, like, yeah, you are a lover and a romantic. That's very much me at this point in my journey.
• 29:41
  Speaker A: That's funny. About. Even at the bathhouse, I could picture that totally.
• 29:46
  Speaker B: I'd be like, where's the cat? Get the candles. Let's warm this bitch up. Where's the incense? Like, put on some chalet, you know?
• 29:54
  Speaker A: I love that. Yeah, you're totally a romantic. I just adore that about you.
• 29:59
  Speaker B: Thank you, Michael. What about you, Boo?
• 30:03
  Speaker C: I think for me, I'll keep it simple. I mean, I've evolved in a lot of ways, but I think the most prevalent and that it. The way that it's changed is in my 20s, I'm going to say, especially when I did move to Toronto, sex was easy for me to find just because it was. I didn't need the emotional connection, clearly. And it was very prevalent all over the city. I lived by myself. There was the advent of Grindr and all the things. So, like, it was easy for me to find. And I didn't really know, I think, how to connect emotionally with men at the time. So I didn't. And I think I was just having sex to have sex because I could and because it felt good. And it was very simple. How that has changed, though, over the years is I have had a greater appreciation for, as time has gone on, the kind of Romantic sex, that. That emotional intimacy that comes with it, that could come with it. Doesn't have to, but it could come with it. And that has. I've come to learn to appreciate that more and more with every partner I've had, with every relationship I've had. There's something very special about that. Whereas in the past, even if I did have a partner, I would say our sex was still very like, not necessarily connected, even though I had a boyfriend. It just lacked that depth, I think, emotionally speaking. So as I've gotten older, I think at the time, now that I'm thinking about it, it might have been a fear of intimacy, but I just didn't know. I wouldn't know to call it that. At the time. I was unaware of my fear of intimacy. I didn't know how to be vulnerable. I didn't want to be vulnerable. Those were all the things. So I was just having sex and it was feeling good and I'd kind of do it, move on to the next one. Do it. Move on to the next one. Do it. Move on to the next one. Even if it wasn't just a one time thing, it was still very transactional in the mechanics of it. It's like, let's just get each other off and go do something else. So that has changed for sure. And now not only do I know how to do that and do I appreciate the different kind of sex that is, I find it beautiful. And I found actually in. After I broke up with my last partner about a year ago now, or just under a year ago, I took about like six months just to like not do anything. Just kind of just chill. And I. It was the winter and the spring. I was like, okay, let's just mourn this and let the dust settle. And then by the time we got to summer, I remember saying, okay, this is it, the summer of single Michael. We're gonna go out and have all the sex and all the fun and it's just gonna be this great time. And lo and behold, did I not meet like the first guy I met on Grindr. We had this like beautiful summer romance, which was not. I was not expecting that. But I have just come to learn and appreciate that. I really enjoy companionship and connection and that comforting Matt, you were talking about that level of comfort with somebody. I mean, I really appreciate that. Enjoy. And sure, I could still, and I did still have some, you know, fun at handlings here and there in the summer. And I went to the bathroom once in a while, but like, I still appreciated that level of connection and companionship that came with it, even though we weren't actually like an official couple or anything. It's interesting that I craved that. Like, I thought I would be craving. Like, oh, yeah, I'm single now. Let's go and have all the fun. And at the end of the day, my body still wanted that closeness, ultimately. And the sex with the closeness. So that's interesting. I think as I'm getting older. Not that I can't do that. I still can't. Maybe I've just reached my limit of casual. That's not true.
• 33:09
  Speaker A: I'm.
• 33:09
  Speaker C: I'm here in Italy and I've been having some casual sex, so I can still do it.
• 33:14
  Speaker B: Yeah, I get that, though. I get that as time goes on, maybe it kind of tapers out somewhat, you know, and there's a preference for one more than the other. Ish.
• 33:25
  Speaker C: Is that it depends on this scenario though, right? Like, so I say that then. I mean, I'm thinking about a time I was at Ans, and I was just out in those woods at Hanlon's for hours, having a gay old time, man. Same thing here I was out last weekend and dancing, and I could still do it. So let's. Let's mean, like this whole episode about the spectrum. Like, I can really. It does depend on. And I'm hesitant to put me in any kind of box. Cause I can do it all. It just really depends on how I'm feeling the moment. That is one thing that has changed for sure. In my 20s, I did not know how to connect. I was unwilling to be vulnerable. I didn't even know what intimacy, real intimacy was. And now that I do, I like it because I can play in both ends. I can play in the depth and the intimacy. And also I can just still have the nsa. And that's okay.
• 34:06
  Speaker A: Yeah, interesting. I love that. And I love how the spectrum. It's like showing you that you can move on the spectrum, right? And that's the beauty of it. We don't have to pigeonhole ourselves and we don't have to grab onto things. And I think, you know, there is even when I said off the top about fear and anxiety, a lot of people carry sexual fear and anxiety. So they pigeonhole themselves because they're afraid of what they might discover or they might feel not good enough or these sorts of things. And I wonder, I always ask myself, who would I be without this fear, right? Like, what would I actually want to move towards? And what would I organically and authentically Desire if I didn't have this fear. Right. I think that's true for me too. Like maybe if I didn't have fears of being hurt or guys taking advantage of my body and these sorts of things, would I want to engage more with casual sexual. I don't know. I don't know. I'm not there. And maybe as my evolution continues and I do more trauma healing work and stuff, maybe I do meet that old part of me which was very hypersexual and didn't know how to have intimacy. And I was dating a guy for eight years and the whole eight years I was dating him. I was disgusted by the thought of connecting sex and emotions. We just had sex. Like I just wanted to be like fucked or fuck, you know, it was never about that. He was very intimate and romantic and wanted to love make. And I would always avoid eye contact during sex because I was afraid. There was a lot of fear of intimacy there for me and. And that was the old me. And then I would actually have a lot of casual sex, never anonymous sex. But I've. I had a lot of casual hookup sex and I was thinking about this. I was like only topping at that time and I was attracted to like leaner, more feminine guys. So it's interesting now. And I didn't. I'm not making the correlation until now and then. Now I'm attracted to more masculine guys and I'm connecting more with my feminine. So it's kind of fascinating how things come full circle like that. So I think now I look at my sexuality as it's like it's changed since going through spiritual processes and lots of therapy and really deeply connecting to myself in emotional ways and finding how to have intimacy with myself. I now value sex in a completely different way. Like it's a sacred thing for me. So yeah, this whole notion of demisexuality, it kind of came from, I don't know, six years ago. And it was a very tough transition for me. I thought I wasn't sexual. Like I thought my sex drive was just gone. I thought it evaporated because I didn't know how to have intimacy at this time and I wasn't able to perform in casual sex. What the heck is going on? So. But it was like, I look at it in retrospect, like spirit was showing me, you need to learn how to have intimacy because we have this amazing man who we're preparing to bring to you and you're not going to be able to receive him if you don't know how to have this greater capacity for like lovemaking and intimacy and all these things. So there was almost a couple of years where I was dormant and I wasn't getting erections and I wasn't even aroused to masturbate and all these things. And it was very, very hard for me. I had a lot of shame around this and. But again, always in retrospect you realize that these things, they're part of evolution. Like so I can, you know, move closer towards whatever my destiny or whatever you want to call it. So yeah, it's, you know, hindsight's always 2020 in this case and. But I would like to get to a place where it's like I'm not connecting with fear when it comes to sex. Like the fear piece has been healed removed. So I can really attune to my authenticity. Like what is it that I desire? Do I desire to do these sorts of things? And I think part of me does in a way. But I still need connection. I reflect on a time when I don't often have sex on first dates. It's very rare that I even have any physical affection. But there's been a few times where I have, but the dates have been longer and we establish intimacy and you know, one of the dates was an eight hour date and we just like hiked and hung out and whatever and we ended up having sex that night. Which a lot of demisexuals. It's like you would think that they wouldn't do that, but it's really just the level of emotional connection that you can establish. Time isn't the only indicator of how you can establish an emotional connection. I think it can be so many different factors. Intensity is one of them. Like, you know, emotional intensity with somebody can really bring forth the arousal component. So yeah, I would say right now I'm at a pretty interesting place when it comes to my sexuality. I find I really wish that there was more men that had capacity to go to some of the places that I want and to take it slower. I yearn for the day that there's like a demisexual app like Grindr where it's like people want to take it slow and you want to go on dates, but you don't necessarily want a long term committed relationship. It's like, you know, friends with intimacy is the term that I'm using now, which is like more than friends with benefits, but not a romantic relationship. It's like I just want to like have beautiful intimacy with human beings and explore our bodies and our minds and our hearts together. But it doesn't have to be this thing that becomes a long term relationship necessarily. You know what I mean? I'm open to it. But so anyway, that's my whole ramble.
• 39:08
  Speaker B: I love that. Yeah, there's a couple of things in there. One was there's something I heard in there about sexuality as like a vehicle for personal and spiritual evolution. And I really think that that is a very special way to. It's just a very powerful way to kind of. Or a powerful perspective on sexuality and sexual expression. You know, like, yes, it's pleasurable and it's fun. And also there's like healing and evolution and spirituality and yeah, like real depth there too, which is good to know.
• 39:41
  Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. And I think sex is shamed so much in our culture. And I think one of the ways that it's shamed is religion shames it because it actually is a portal to higher consciousness. So we can use sex as a way to expand ourselves and expand our souls. However, the intention and our holes. Exactly. The key though is the intention of why you're having sex. Right. It's like there's so many different types of sex that we can have. Some of them constrict us, some of them traumatize us, some of them. Right. It's not that all sex is expansive and sacred and is going to take you to those levels. Right. It's about, you know, is this person able to have the type of sex with me where we're going to expand our hearts, our minds, and go to those higher levels of consciousness which is more tantric type sex. So at 100%, sex can be a vehicle used to do amazing, beautiful things. For sure. All right, if you want to learn about sex. Do we, Michael, do we have sex stuff in our coaching collection?
• 40:37
  Speaker C: We do. Under the relationships.
• 40:40
  Speaker A: Oh, yes. Okay. Yeah, so we have stuff. So if you're looking to want to, you know, learn more about sex and sexuality, you can check out our coaching collection. So this is our 45 plus premium coaching videos where Michael, Callen and I have taught workshops, different things like this on all different topics related to relationships, community, body positivity, confidence. So you can check that out atgaming going deeper.com if you want more info about that. All right, going into the last question here, Reno, how do you go about getting your sexual needs met? This is my favorite question out of all of them. I'm really curious to know what you guys have to say about this.
• 41:19
  Speaker B: Well, my ex, who I mentioned on here a number of times, who's my dear friend? We just saw each other yesterday actually in his. During his layover in Vancouver. He gifted me this cute little purple and white vibrator and that thing. Oh my goodness. It's magical for me. So, you know, I definitely, definitely use that thing quite a bit, you know, when inspiration strikes. Yeah, there's a lot. My life is rich with self pleasure, I'll say. And let me make this clear. I'm not. In no way do I feel a victim of a circumstance or something like that. Like I'm consciously choosing to be fairly exclusive when it comes to who I engage sexually with. And so part of that is because I'm very sexual. You know, there's a lot of self pleasuring until I meet a person who's like the right fit. Another way that might surprise people, I guess because it's not like explicitly sexual, but it's more erotic, is I have a pole in the living room. And when I'm super turned on and I know that there's like a lot of sexual energy brewing in me, I like put on my shorts, my knee pads, you know, my tank or like my sweatpants or whatever and I put on some music and I just go and like hoe it up in the living room. And there's a lot of heavy breathing and touching and you know, swinging on the pole and you know, upside down shit. And it's, it's just, it's a blast. And that really turns me on. It's a very sexual thing for me and it's a lot of fun. So, you know, that's another way.
• 42:58
  Speaker A: Is it your poll or was it. That's amazing. I love that.
• 43:02
  Speaker B: No, so it was, what happened was someone who, someone who I know moved in and brought it with her and then gifted it to me. So I was like, oh my God, I'm so excited. I love this thing. Yeah, it's so much fun. And it's like the highlight of my parties. Whenever I have parties, everyone's like, oh my gosh, this is so fun. And then I would say every once in a while, if you're lucky, you will find me on Grindr. Sometimes I just get niche and I want to scratch it. And so I'm like, who's out there? And I might like have someone over and we'll have a bit of fun. And true to form, it's generally like romantic in nature. It's always so funny too. I gotta say this because, like, it cracks me up. So these guys will come over and I think that they're expecting one thing and then they come into my space and they feel the energy of it and it's a whole vibe. And I see it like, without fail. They're like, surprised because again, it's like warm and it's immaculate in some ways. And there's music and there's smells and there's sounds. You know, sometimes I have my little like Zen fountain going or something like that. But it's so interesting to see how they respond to that when they come into the room. And I almost feel like it's sort of this wow experience for them. And I love that. I love that. It's really fun. And then, yeah, so I'll have some like, romantic sex, you know, and it might be just a one off, but again, there's always that element of romance. So I would say that's. That's kind of how I go about getting my sexual needs met. Those three. At this point, last thing I'll say is, when I was listening to you speak earlier, Matt, something that became very clear to me. I was tuning into my body and I think there's this like, deep, not longing. It's not a longing. I don't even know that I would give it the word desire. But there's like a. A sort of readiness, a ripening for like committed partnership. And the kind of sex that happens in that context. Like I feel ready to like, give my body open my body, make my body available to one particular person over an extended period of time. And like, that's really exciting to me. And she's just like ripening right now. She's getting nice and juicy. So when he shows up, watch out. Watch out.
• 45:34
  Speaker A: Yeah, you cracked me up, Reno. I love you.
• 45:40
  Speaker B: What about you, Michael?
• 45:42
  Speaker C: I mean, how do you go about getting your sexual needs met? I mean, it sounds very simple. I just ask for it. I mean, well, I guess the first thing is to figure out what it is I want. Exactly right? So that step one is. Okay, what exactly am I looking for? Do I just want to get drilled and filled today or do I want to cuddle and like, not even necessarily even have to have sex, but like just cuddle and just be close to somebody without that expectation or obligation of it turning into anything. Here they call that, I've seen a lot on apps, soft sex, which is, you know, some people might call it like side stuff. Maybe in North America we call it, but here they call it soft sex, which is basically just cuddling. You know, sex isn't really part of it necessarily. So I kind of like, you know, sometimes that is what I'm looking for. Just, you know, I don't really want to have to deal with all the things that come with actual penetrative sex or the expectation. That's the thing with me. As soon as there's an expectation, obligation, I'm out. Like, no, I can't do it. So it has to be either in the moment, like spontaneous, like, oh, I like you, you like me, let's just do this. But yeah, if it's like a Grinder date and there's all of a sudden some kind of expectation that we're going to do it, I'm just like, no, sorry, I can't do that anymore. That's another way that I guess my sexuality has evolved over the years. I could have done that before, but now I can't. So, yeah, I guess I ask for it, know what I want, and then ask for it. So if I am on Grindr and I am, and I'm chatting with somebody, just, you know, and they say this happens all the time, you know, do you want to come over? Let's hook up. I'll be like, actually, I'm more looking to go out on a date or this is happening while I'm here, right? So the first few weeks I was all excited and had some Grinder fun, and now I'm like, I'm in the city. Like, I want someone to like, take me out to a bar and like, show me around. Like, I want someone to do that with me and have that. And maybe sex is on the table just like tonight, and maybe it isn't, but just knowing what you want and then not settling for less, I think that's. That's been a big learning as well. So as hot as the guy is, if I'm not feeling it, I'm just like, no, if that's all you want, you just want me to come over, do it, and then leave. I'm just not feeling that today. Or maybe I am. So, yeah. Know what you want? Cause I guess the thing with me and having that wide spectrum is it could be anything and then just aligning my actions with what the needs are. So you have to have a high level of self awareness because I. I could also equally go to, you know, a bar or, or Hanlon's and not do anything at all if I'm not in the mood for it. And I would never force myself or FOMO myself into like, oh, I should go do that. I just don't do that anymore. Feels like, eh, not into it today. So next, know what you want and ask for it. It's pretty much my, my answer to that one.
• 48:11
  Speaker A: That's such an important thing to mention too. Like fomo. FOMO is like a structure of the mind. It's the mind feeling it's missing out. And if you're putting your body through something that it doesn't want to be in, like you're putting, you're forcing your body to have sex because of fomo, it would be like, that can be like micro traumas to the body because it's like so I love that you're so discerning or like when to put yourself in sexual situations because it feels fully aligned to the, the whole entirety of who you are. Yeah, I respect that so much.
• 48:37
  Speaker C: It's a bit of a mess for me because I will tell my friends, okay, hey, like I'm not feeling it today. You're just going to go out and I'm going to dance and have a good time. And they all just be like, yeah, like we know you. Because the thing is that will be the truth in that moment and then somebody will walk by and I'm like, oh wait, no, nevermind or whatever. And so it is very confusing to be me. And I know that all of my answers today are so inconsistent, but imagine what it's like being in my own head, guys.
• 49:01
  Speaker A: I know.
• 49:02
  Speaker B: I love it though. I think it's so brilliant because it's like how you do sex is how I do life. So I totally get it. Yeah, I'm like very intuitive, very fluid, very spontaneous. Like you know, one second this the next that like I'm really just responding to the moment and I hear that in you and I think that that's so.
• 49:22
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 49:22
  Speaker B: Beautiful. Yeah.
• 49:24
  Speaker C: Yeah. Thank you.
• 49:24
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's important, I think for me the trauma healing journey is showing me that because I've been very black and white a lot of my life because of trauma and like finding being very fear based. Right. So needing control over things. So you can't be intuitive, you can't let the moment flow. And I think now that I'm like really coming into my own around like I'm not governed by as much trauma. I think I'm able to do that. I'm able to be like, okay, what is, what do I want in this moment? I'm like connecting to my needs in a different way. It's just, it's so. I feel like a lot of things are shifting for me right now. So it's really interesting. So how do I go about getting my sexual needs met? Oh, this is the bane of my existence. I. So I've been on Tinder for the longest time. I haven't been on Scruff or Grindr for 10 years. And I was noticing that it's just like crickets on Tinder. Everybody's over on these other apps and everybody's like, well, if you can't beat them, join them. Right? So a lot of. Even the demisexual guys, they are not on Tinder anymore because no one's responding. It's such a. So anyways, I downloaded Scruff and Grinder, and I'm just like, oh, my God, this is just. It's so painful. Honestly, it's so painful. You know, I'm not saying that there's not opportunity to meet people there for sure, but it's like. It's almost like I'm having to, like, train people who I am and what I want, like, in such a aggressive way, because it's like people just come at you in the way that Grindr is conditioning people to be, which is like, what are you into? Or sending you just unlocking their album. And I'm like, I don't want to see a picture of your. Like, I really, you know, it's just a very strange culture, I find. Yeah, send it to Reno, not to me. And so anyways, I just find that that's really interesting. And my relationship to masturbation is also very different than most people. I don't masturbate very often. Like maybe once a week at most. Once every two weeks is probably more normal for me. But when I'm connecting with somebody again, it's a completely different world. So my sex is very relationally governed. I'm a relational creature when it comes to sex, so I need that mirror or that connection with other people. And maybe that's also part of. It isn't just being a demi, it's maybe it's being an empath. I feel arousal when I feel other people's arousal. To me, when someone's turned on by me, I can feel that. And it. It turns me on. I don't know. It's a very interesting thing. So I feel like my sexuality is not traditional. Maybe I'll say, I know other people that are like this too, because I've. I've had a demisexual men's group for two and a half years, and these guys are all the same as me. So it's. I know that it's, you know, people who are more on the empathic spectrum tend to have a different thing like that, but the other. So how do I get my needs directly met? I would say I love picture exchange. When I, you know, meet guys on Instagram or things like that and like, sharing pictures, if we find each other attractive like that, something about that really turns me on. And then I will usually, like, I can masturbate to that or like, videos, like, we'll, like, get to know each other.
• 52:13
  Speaker B: Are we talking about. Are we talking about, like, whole pics or pics of them, like, hiking in the mountains or both?
• 52:21
  Speaker A: Once they've sent the pictures of them hiking in the mountains and I get to know them a bit, I'm open to.
• 52:25
  Speaker B: Got it. Yeah.
• 52:27
  Speaker A: But I have to have a connection established, which is why I don't like Grindr, because I don't know you from Adam. Why are you sending me photos? You know what I mean? So I want to establish a connection first, and then I'm down for. For photos. So that's. That's a big one for me. I love photos. I love taking sexy photos. I love receiving them from people. It's just like a. It's a fetish of mine. I could even say. And then I would say, one of the ways that I get my sexual needs met, it always starts with cuddling. I love attuning my nervous system. So even if it's like, you know, like, I'm like, come over for a cuddle date. I always like. And I'll use the word cuddle and sex, like, as a synonym because I'm like, come over. We'll cuddle, and we'll see where it goes. But I always like to say. Because then I can say, no, I just want to cuddle if I'm not feeling the vibe. Or I can, you know, communicate my arousal. And I'll be like, hey, like, this cuddling is starting to arouse me. Like, do you want to take it to the next step? So then I'm kind of in charge of, like, you know, where the situation will go. And maybe that's a bit of a protective thing, but I think for me, it's. I need to know that my nervous system gives me the thumbs up because my body will not want to do it if my nervous system isn't saying yes to it. So I want to give that an opportunity. And then when you're cuddling with someone, you get a chance to, like, smell them and, like, all the things that are important for me to get sexual with somebody, I want to make sure they smell Good. They got good hygiene, all of those sort of things. So.
• 53:43
  Speaker B: But in my experience of you, you smell very good too, so it makes sense. It adds up.
• 53:48
  Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you.
• 53:49
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 53:50
  Speaker C: I have a funny story that you just reminded me of. So, yeah, speaking of Grindr and all these things, I was a few days ago in Genova, and it was late at night and this guy wanted to hook up and I was like, oh, he's actually hot. He was 21, Italian, in the Italian marines. Which I was like, okay. But it was like 12:30, like midnight, which is kind of my bedtime for me. And I was like, I don't really want to, but, you know, this sounds like a great opportunity, but, like, I wasn't physically ready. So going back to what I just said of, like, knowing what I wanted, I was like, listen, I just went out on a. On a limb here. I was like, would you like to cuddle? And he's like, he doesn't know what that word is. So when I looked it up, listen to this word I'm going to say. I'm going to try to pronounce it the verb for cuddle in Italian. Coccolare.
• 54:38
  Speaker A: Coccolare.
• 54:39
  Speaker C: Coccolare. Which I think is a beautiful word, but it sounds like talk, like coco latte. So when I told him that, he's like, oh, my gosh, even better. So it actually worked out for the best because he came over and we just cuddled. We just talked and cuddled and we kind of. We fumbled over through Italian and English and eventually we did end up having sex. But cuddle dates. Yeah, that's what Matt was saying. I. I love that and I fully agree, like, that these days is way more my vibe and. But I'm not. I'm not saying sex is off the table. I just again, don't want to be obliged to doing it. Let's cuddle first and see how it goes. Yeah.
• 55:11
  Speaker B: Yeah, I feel like we need to, because this episode just got like, so even more juicy at the end. And I'm like, I want to keep going. So I feel like maybe we need to do an episode where we just like share sexcapades or something. I don't know.
• 55:26
  Speaker C: Yeah, that's a library. That's a lot.
• 55:30
  Speaker A: Sexcapades. Yeah. You guys, I love you guys. I love you too. Nice to learn about you and share and learn about myself. I didn't prepare anything for my questions and then like, you guys were sharing things and it just stimulated stuff. And I'm like, this is maybe I should do that more.
• 55:46
  Speaker B: Just let stimulated you.
• 55:48
  Speaker C: Yeah, stimulated me.
• 55:50
  Speaker A: You gave me an intellectual orgasm.
• 55:52
  Speaker B: I love it.
• 55:54
  Speaker A: And thank you to our listener and viewer for coming on this journey with us as always. And yeah, just be mindful. This podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you are enjoying what we're creating, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. You can also, if you're watching on YouTube, hit the thank you button and you can make a donation directly on YouTube. We would greatly appreciate that it goes to supporting our community and so we can continue to create amazing offerings for connection and healing and empowerment for all of our gay brothers. And you can also subscribe to early access option on Apple podcast Listen ad free early access to episodes. All your support helps us continue making content for you and supporting our community. We do thank you in advance for that. And you can come and join one of our events. You can go to gaimansbrotherhood.com and hit the event section, find out what we're offering. We would love to see you at one of our events. All right. Much love everybody.