Latest / Stronger Business Together / E17 Securing Follow-On Funding with Chris Wiggin
Transcript
- Granger Forson: Hello, this is the Stronger Business Together podcast where business owners learn from each other. No theory, no gurus, just real journeys and overcoming real hurdles. Today I'm joined by Chris Wiggin, who is a retired solicitor who has built a business and now helps other businesses through a portfolio of non-exec directing. So Chris, welcome. Thanks for spending your time with us today. We're on a mission to make business owners stronger together. If this conversation helped you, please comment, like and follow on whatever platform you're using. About 60 % of you have not done that yet, and these small actions will help us reach more business owners just like you. Christopher Charles Wiggin: Thank you, I'm very pleased to be here Granger. Granger Forson: Fantastic. Well, let's start with act one about your business. So let's talk about the business that you grew and developed the solicitor's business. So. Christopher Charles Wiggin: when first moved to Birmingham, ⁓ a office an insurance company suggested that we should open in Birmingham and that they would instruct us. But when I went to knock on the claims manager's door, he ⁓ gave me response wasn't expecting. And he said, well, I don't know you. Why should I instruct you? Because I've been using another Granger Forson: If you want to join the conversation as a guest, or if you have a hurdle question for us to tackle, reach out to us at info at strongerbusinesstogether.com. ⁓ make this week really successful and we'll see you in the next one. Cheers! So Chris, in plain English, what did the business do? Christopher Charles Wiggin: It was a firm of solicitors. suppose my history is when we first married, ⁓ moved to a little country practice from ⁓ a London where I was working. And the practice a two-partner firm in Stroud, and they were going to open an office in Dursley, and they asked me to open it for them. They split up after six months, and I... for the past 20 years and we have a great working relationship. you know, I challenge that. So we to go on knocking on other people's doors ⁓ and putting around, joining a lot of networking events ⁓ get ⁓ sure enough in you know, we started to gain new business. bought it and became a sole practitioner at the age of 32 with just me and a secretary. it was quite daunting but quite an exciting time. And pleased say that we grew and I managed to acquire one assistant. being very small, ⁓ mean every ⁓ ⁓ affected profit So as I got it was all to do with networking, meeting people. I to play golf with a partner at Price Waterhouse, Coopers, and I used to take ⁓ a and he used to take a client and we used to swap them. And, you know, from time to time, we got quite good network of friends and contacts. ⁓ quite busy. I was asked actually by the other three firms, they all asked me if I'd like to join them ⁓ I joined one of them ⁓ became a partner there. And a friend who I used to play cricket and rugby with at the firm in London where I started off asked me if I'd like to open an office for them in Birmingham. I came from just north of Birmingham and I an Granger Forson: Yeah. Christopher Charles Wiggin: It took time and it what I expected to start off with. Granger Forson: Yeah, so it's building that network over time eventually led the growth that you then created and built. ⁓ So me, give us an example of a customer ⁓ success that you're really proud of at that time. Christopher Charles Wiggin: Well, was a big factor in the insurance industry in those days. And ⁓ the insurance companies losing ⁓ a huge amount money due to fraudulent claims. And in those days, firms or solicitors didn't have dedicated specific fraud department. But previously so that's what I did and we moved to ⁓ Cheltenham I commuted up on the train for 30 years and we started off with me and the secretary and another person and I was senior there for 24 years. ⁓ we started off just with me the secretary another person and I senior partner there for 24 years. that started to happen that became my biggest department in my office. I recruited somebody another firm who was an excellent fraud specialist and it became by far the largest department in my office. And we were to ⁓ our you know. and at the end we had 185 people. So had a really exciting time. But quite a long time, my office the runt of the litter. It was ⁓ the smallest eight offices ⁓ to start with. And we became third largest office in the end. But it was ⁓ in the early growing ⁓ and... at the end we had 185 people. So we a really exciting time. But for a long time, my office was smallest of eight offices to start off with. And we the third largest office in end. it was difficult the early stages, growing and... Granger Forson: now. Christopher Charles Wiggin: hundreds of thousands of pounds, which was very exciting. And areas specialisms evolved really. And it was due to recruiting the right people. my office, culture central to me. I think if you could create an environment where people ⁓ I can remember our finance director saying once you get to 20 people then things will just start to mushroom and sure enough they did but getting to 20 people was wasn't easy but as soon as we did then we had a really exciting time ⁓ I can remember our finance director saying once you get to 20 people then things will just start to mushroom and sure enough they did but getting to 20 people was wasn't easy but as soon as we did then we had a really exciting time ⁓ thank you Granger Forson: ⁓ Christopher Charles Wiggin: in my office, culture was central to me. I if could an environment where people Granger Forson: Excellent. Well done. That's fantastic. I mean, that's quite a growth over those years. you know, I always like to know, did your customers then pick you? How ⁓ you delight ⁓ Christopher Charles Wiggin: woke up looking forward to the day, feeling well supervised, well supported, valued, well trained. your was but it wasn't key. And it was the whole environment, I think. that was important. And then they ⁓ told their friends, and their friends contacted you and wanted to join. ⁓ woke up looking forward to the day, feeling well supervised, well supported, valued, well trained. And remuneration important, but it wasn't key. And it was the whole environment, I think. that was important. And then they ⁓ told their friends, then their friends contacted you and wanted to join. ⁓ Well, to start off with, acted for insurance companies representing their insured. but we had a very exciting growth period with fraud and sort in the middle part of the journey of the office. Granger Forson: Excellent and I love that description that you had of you know people don't necessarily they don't come for money they need the money but actually they stay for the environment you create and I love that description you did on that. So brilliant let's talk about act two now the journey what you learned through building that business up there in Birmingham. So you know they're always highs and lows as you're trying to build and grow and develop what were some of the highs and lows for you during that time? Christopher Charles Wiggin: I think didn't have any training, didn't have any management training and ⁓ learn by your mistakes or from people. I think structure, having a structure was really helpful. When I had, at very beginning, was just me and another person and a secretary. We sat next to each other. We didn't have any formal meetings because we knew what each of us were doing and could hear what each of us were doing. But as soon as we started to have regular monthly structured formal meetings, things changed and it changed for the better. So that was something that I learned. And then I think... There were one or two different things that did which we as we had monthly partners meetings of course, but at one we were on three different floors and you often didn't know ⁓ or meet from or to week people on the other floor. I for the heads of department and the partners to meet every Friday for an informal sandwich lunchtime they could. And that helped ⁓ getting to know individual, their quirks. You know, you don't get on with everyone, but by just meeting and not having any formal structure and just having a chat. You get a camaraderie, you get a greater sense of pulling together rather than having your own fiefdoms you get to understand people's issues. ⁓ they've got people at home with cancer or bereavement or things like that. So that very helpful. Granger Forson: Yeah, I think it's so important for people that work together to somehow come together. Now, we sometimes think you did it physically fantastic by creating a lunchtime sandwich. In my past, I had team members a team that were in India, ⁓ in Gateshead, and in Manchester. ⁓ So I them all every single day to have two coffee moments where they all went online. We were using WebEx back then. and everybody sat and had their coffee together, yes, face to face looking at a video screen, but they built that little bit of understanding of each other greater than you get than just having formal meetings. eventually I encouraged them even to work together by leaving their screens running and their videos running. So even though they were working, they were still feeling part of a team and that massively improved the whole ⁓ and also the output of it. So I totally agree. ⁓ ⁓ Christopher Charles Wiggin: That's great. Granger Forson: need that connection when they are all part of the same thing for growing a business. Fantastic. you know, ⁓ believe making life simpler for yourselves. You know, what's maybe something that you stopped doing ⁓ that made simpler for the firm? Christopher Charles Wiggin: I was, we were told at one stage that we couldn't recruit people who had less than a 2-1 degree. And I felt strongly that I didn't agree with that. I didn't get a 2-1 degree, I got a 2-2 degree. it's the character of the individual, their personality, their values, their initiative, their drive, which is so important. so I didn't do it. And that's something that I felt quite strongly about. And think that if you can If you get the right people ⁓ business, that's the call. And if you're all pulling together, but it's not always easy. And it's the people really that will... ⁓ get your customers and your clients, if they trust you, and if they like your company, they believe in you, and they like working with you, they'll be forgiving. We all make mistakes from time to time. We don't do it intentionally. it quite But if you get the right people with the right attitude and foster that in ways, then my opinion it's really helpful. I got an idea from the senior partner of Ben Ragganco and he used to send a card to each member of staff on the anniversary of them joining the firm. And I used to do that. And I got a lot of brownie points and I just sent a small personal note to them. And it made a difference to the culture of the office. And I think people felt valued, thanking them for what they've and congratulating them on their third or fifth year there or whatever. And it's the little things, but are crucial ⁓ and it's developing, think, the ways which you train them, you look after them, you supervise them. and you monitor them having one-on-one meetings regularly to learn not all, you know, about necessarily all their work, but about about them as people as well and other issues which they might have and they'll learn about issues which you have too. Granger Forson: that was real goldmine in that statement just made that is so true about people and we ⁓ know ⁓ Business we believe in growing people so they then help grow your business and when we're looking at those small businesses and that growth so you've talked a lot about people and how you things what what ⁓ what have learned about developing and growing people that maybe you'd wished you'd learned earlier for our audience to say I need to start doing this Christopher Charles Wiggin: goes back to what I said structure I think. think you and communication if as a grows communication can be a real sticking point. So communication in opinion is key it's not easy to So I used to have quarterly one on one meetings with every month by supervisors as we grew with everyone, with every individual. And I used to have ⁓ quarterly meetings for the of the office. was difficult, but we could all squeeze one huge room. And then ⁓ the heads of each ⁓ used to stand up just give an update as to what what had been happening in their world, good things, maybe some things that hadn't gone too well, so that everybody felt, advised and updated and of the business. for a long time didn't do that. But as soon as people were regularly with in that way, made a big difference. Granger Forson: Yeah, fantastic. totally agree. And interesting, I always think about is we the business owners, we have so much in our heads. We know what's going on. We know all the strings that we're pulling. We know what's going on in the marketplace. We ⁓ know much. And we then we don't understand why people around us don't know it. You and you think... Christopher Charles Wiggin: Exactly. Granger Forson: Well, actually, because you don't tell them. they're in the business, you assume that somehow ⁓ come together and understand these things. As we've developed language in order to communicate communicate where we are, communicate what we're doing. ⁓ So as you say, communication is so important ⁓ bring everybody up. And there's a formal communication you talked about. There's also little informal ones, little things that are taking place, little and thank yous all that structure taking on. Brilliant, fantastic. So Chris let's move on now to our hurdle round. So what is it you've chosen today for us to talk through? Christopher Charles Wiggin: Well, I'm currently a non-exec of one or two businesses, ⁓ outsourcing which I I love the people. a cyber company in Birmingham and called Medi Music that provides as medicine I'm helping ⁓ company Australia who've got an online skills modular training ⁓ And one two small One company ⁓ and has struggled some to get additional finance. They've got a good investment initially, in order to finish off the technology and the product before it can be sold, the investor has said, we'll you, but we want to be the only investor. And it's been really difficult to... ⁓ find another investor and I think this product has got a global reach that's really difficult and when I'm speaking to other people I think for startups getting investment certainly in the technology sort of sector is a common problem and that's one that we've had. Granger Forson: Yeah. Okay. So this is a type company is using ⁓ It's has it got ⁓ ⁓ starting condition today. So let's talk about that where it is today. ⁓ it got a product that is actually actively selling to generate revenue? Okay. Right. Okay. So the investment is pre revenue generation. So it's just based ⁓ ⁓ belief that Christopher Charles Wiggin: No. No. Granger Forson: the owner, we all need those people have it will be a worthwhile product in the marketplace. Okay, so that's starting condition. ⁓ So where are currently, they have some initial investment ⁓ and ⁓ investors saying was willing to give more but only if there's a second investor ⁓ on board. So that investor, why did they invest? ⁓ Christopher Charles Wiggin: I think they invested because they could see the of the product and the potential. It was a substantial investment too, but it hasn't sufficient to finish all the trials that are needed. for the technology before the product can be Granger Forson: Okay, ⁓ original pitch deck, the original idea that they invested in, did originally then also needed further investment ⁓ or the original investment was going to be sufficient to do those trials and those activities? Christopher Charles Wiggin: not too sure to tell you the truth. I ⁓ think it was hoped that that initial investment would be sufficient to the product, but it hasn't launched yet. A huge amount of development has taken place recently due to founders. Granger Forson: Okay. Christopher Charles Wiggin: just hard work personally in that and other things himself. But it's a And talking to other people in ⁓ technology and ⁓ technology startups. It's a risk, you know, for people to invest and, you know, some fly, but so many startups Granger Forson: Absolutely. ⁓ So ⁓ investors investing in, they're in the belief, the passion and the motivation of ⁓ the founder ⁓ and the group around It's the energy that they bring to the belief, the structure that take place. ⁓ Now, the most important thing for business, especially technology ones, ⁓ is that initial ⁓ Christopher Charles Wiggin: fly, you know. Granger Forson: to build something that can then, even if it's just proof of concept, we can actually get into the marketplace to actually sell something and see if the marketplace is genuinely there. Have we got to a point yet of anything that we can actually take to market and start experimenting with, even if that was free? Because at least you're getting feedback and understanding from people as we're testing those ideas and those solutions in place. ⁓ Christopher Charles Wiggin: We're just on the verge of doing that. We've got someone who says they would love to introduce us to their customers and who are substantial and to have a collaboration, which is really exciting. But it's taken 18 months plus. to get to that stage and it's been a difficult journey. Granger Forson: It does. Absolutely. And talk about the shape of businesses. I ⁓ that phrase. I learned that one from Alex Hormosi and he talks about the different shapes. a product business, as in ⁓ physical consumer, is a staircase. ⁓ Because the only way to grow is you need that next level of money to buy the next product, put it on the shelf to be able to expand and to grow. So there are times where you just don't seem to grow and you can't seem to do anymore. And that's actually because you just need that next amount of money to do that. And that's either investment or through bootstrapping. So it is difficult. The next one is that... education one, know, the education is a that goes up and then goes flat because there's only so many people that will want your product and capability from it and actually you go beyond a certain level of it. You've got the line steadily going up which is those service industries because ⁓ The only way that you grow is you need to invest more people. You need to bring people into the business. So they have to keep, you become a training and recruiting process to make those, those typical service type industries. And then you have the technology companies and the technology companies is that inverted curve. You start off really low and then you take a while and then then suddenly ticks off and then grows. And it's that period of time before it grows that you need that money to be able to do that. And you're either doing that yourself through bootstrapping or you're doing that yourself through investment. ⁓ that period the most important thing is not the technology, it's how do we sell? the technology we should be experimenting with. Because we can get hung up in the perfect solution. We can get hung up in the perfect software, the perfect outcome that we're looking for. But during that time, what you're really experimenting is how do we sell it? Who's the right people? Will they buy it? Even if they're gonna buy it for free initially, those early adopters. Yes, you've got to find those early adopters, early majority. You've got to constantly focus on doing those. So as a business, Where's the effort today in finding those first people to buy or those even if you started selling or you haven't said that yet but you're trying to do? Christopher Charles Wiggin: That's brilliant because that's key. I think one thing that we've been able to do with this business is with this other company that I mentioned, we've got an agreement, ⁓ a written agreement from them that the ⁓ is in final form, then... they're happy to collaborate with us. ⁓ a comfort to the investor. And we need is ⁓ more those. And maybe we should have been making ⁓ efforts get more of those really. Granger Forson: Yes, and it's hard because... Absolutely and it's hard because you know don't know how many people are in the firm currently you've got the technology person, the founder of creating, running the tests, building the software. Okay but you need the second person that's why most businesses are beautiful growth when you've got two people you've got the sales person and you've got the original idea person and it's bringing that sales forwards, practicing that you know going through those hurdles because they'll be lots of no's before you get to the yeses, but if you're not getting those lots of no's, you're not learning how to sell and even putting the product in front of pre-purchasing people saying this is what we're looking like, getting their feedback and understanding and how's that going to work and through those hurdles ⁓ you're developing the technology ⁓ even if you can get to that zero level where you could actually sell it. in some form with more to come, absolutely. But getting that first initial feedback and trials is so important because business isn't about the product. That's the original idea. That's the spark. A business is about how you sell that product. And that's why I work a lot of my clients with to really think about ⁓ selling process, ⁓ experience of selling, what works, what doesn't. Trying marketplaces, seeing what, in those early years. ⁓ who's actually going to buy or not. And one of my clients, spent probably two years playing around, didn't sound much, lots of different marketplaces. And suddenly he found the one that really worked. He found the way to talk to them, the way to do it. And his business is just accelerating in the last 18 months. By the end of this year, he's going to have six staff. That's the level of growth that he's doing. But it took him nearly two years to play around and do that. And that's probably what your next investor is looking for. They're looking for that proof. Christopher Charles Wiggin: That's so true. You you've hit your nail on the head there, Granger. Yeah. Well done. Yeah. Granger Forson: Yeah, they're looking for that proof that you can actually sell it, even if it's for free. Yeah, because you can actually say, look, you know, it's pre-selling, we're giving this away for free, but people are using it, they're getting feedback, you're getting testimonials, that you can then do that. And then you can go to more investors because investors, they're investors that are pre-launch, absolutely. They're hard to find because it's all about belief. Christopher Charles Wiggin: Yeah. Granger Forson: If you're post-launch and you're generating revenue and you're generating growth, then actually you'll find a totally different type of investors that will then come in and help to make that accelerate. Christopher Charles Wiggin: No, spot on, yeah. that's applicable to another company I'm involved in, the training that I mentioned. they've struggled to sell. I think that letting people have it for to see for themselves Granger Forson: Yeah. Yes. There's a brilliant book. there's a by Alex Hormozi. $100 million leads, what he talks ⁓ is he talks about ⁓ the first people effectively give it away for free. Christopher Charles Wiggin: The value and the benefit of the product ⁓ Granger Forson: But they're people that you know, so you trust them to give you feedback, you trust them to give you testimonials, you trust them to develop, help you develop the product, that's why you're giving it free. The next five people, you say, you can have it for free, but you've got to give X amount to charity. So at least they're paying for it, but maybe not paying you yet, because you're still finishing off. Once you've got to those first 10 people, you've had 10 people's worth of feedback, okay, that might be 10 businesses rather than people. You've had those 10 feedback. Once you've got that feedback, you've now got a product that you know roughly who will go. You've to get 10 people, you may have spoken to 50 people you know personally and you do. Absolutely, yes, ⁓ yes. And then you can then ⁓ the next 10 people which you're to try and sell to. So now you've got 20 people that you've got that feedback, you know who you're roughly starting to sell to and then you can start growing off the back of that. But often think that we've got to try and sell the first five to 10, we don't. Christopher Charles Wiggin: And you can use that feedback as testimonials if people would agree, which is very proud. Granger Forson: be nice to, fantastic. But that's that initial investment in the business helps us find and do. ⁓ that's really important step maybe that we're missing ⁓ in thinking and that structure. Brilliant. So Chris, what you think, when you're going to sit down with the ⁓ business owner in the week, what do you think your first experiment was going to be? Christopher Charles Wiggin: we're just coming out of the long period of frustration of not being able finalize the product and I think the product is now... Almost there. I think that the other company who promised they would like to collaborate with us... as a test. it's been a long hurdle, but I'm hopeful now that will be to launch very soon. The difficulty is a product which pre-launch and needs investment. And the founder has had do much work himself. night, ⁓ another job to finish off rather than having the luxury of being able to concentrate all his efforts and time, full time on it. It's been a real struggle, but we're almost now, but you're right. You need to sell it, get some testimonials, get other people use it for free ⁓ or otherwise to off with. I'm hopeful that we're almost there with that. But an journey and ⁓ I'm ⁓ enjoying involvement in ⁓ a variety different varieties of and ⁓ it's exciting. Granger Forson: It is. Great, great. ⁓ let's go into our wrap up and close now. What did hear yourself say today that maybe surprised you? Christopher Charles Wiggin: your insight into... selling a new business idea was for free is something that I had wanted to embark on but I think that's legs and I think it's important. ⁓ A lot of founders ⁓ I would reluctant to do but It's a struggle starting off. that's one thing which I'm to take away. And I can really see the logic in that. Granger Forson: Thank you, Chris. And finally, Chris, if people want to learn more about your journey and follow what you're doing, how can they get in contact? Christopher Charles Wiggin: ⁓ LinkedIn and you know I'm I'm loving having a portfolio of non-exec ⁓ really helping businesses with my experience and journey that had. So ⁓ if anybody like contact me, I'll be very pleased for to reach out via or my mobile 07768. 485-299. Thank you very much. Granger Forson: thank you so much for being open and honest and I know our listeners will get a lot from this conversation today. It's been fantastic. Thank you. Christopher Charles Wiggin: I really enjoyed it too. Thank you for the opportunity.