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HMDG: The Untold Story | Healthcare Businesses and The Female Touch · No Appointment Necessary

• 0:00
  Michael: So, welcome to the latest episode of No Appointment Necessary.
• 0:03
  Michael: Today is a slightly different one and maybe one that's a bit overdue.
• 0:07
  Michael: Today I will be talking to my fiance, um, who's my co-founder of HMDG.
• 0:13
  Michael: And it's going to be a little bit different because I think it's it's going to be really interesting to chat through how we started the business and all of that sort of stuff.
• 0:20
  Michael: But beyond that, I think just kind of relating to other business owners, the things that we went through, the things that they go through, and also our experience of what it's like working with with MSK Clinics.
• 0:33
  Michael: And Hannah obviously has a uh a bit of an insight there, not just having done this for a while, but also um having qualified as a physio herself back in the day, not much physio going on now.
• 0:44
  Michael: So we'll give you some insights.
• 0:45
  Michael: I think also quite interestingly, we've kind of I don't want to say completed the journey, but we did go from struggling company that didn't have any money to buy food through to actually exiting the company as well.
• 0:58
  Michael: So I think it's uh it's gonna be a really interesting look at the the entire journey.
• 1:03
  Michael: So it'll be a bit more of a conversation normally, and I'll I'll certainly throw a ton of questions at Hannah as well.
• 1:09
  Michael: And she has no idea what I'm gonna ask either.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: So slightly concerning.
• 1:14
  Michael: I think she's a little bit scared.
• 1:16
  Michael: So uh welcome Hannah.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: Hello.
• 1:19
  Michael: My co-founder, and as I often say, the person that actually runs the company.
• 1:24
  Michael: Um although everyone thinks it's me, but um, so let's let's get straight into it.
• 1:29
  Michael: So talk to me about life before HMDG.
• 1:32
  Michael: What what what were you doing?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I was actually working in medical sales as a a clinical specialist.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I was one of their resident physios, and I was actually training people on how to use shockwave machines, can you believe?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: I also, as Michael said, was qualified as a physio.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'd also just qualified as a veterinary physio as well.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I was doing a bit of work on the side, both with humans but also with animals, and that was what I was trying to build up actually when I first met Michael, and then when we first started the company as well.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: It was actually building me a website for my little physio businesses and starting to do the marketing for those that was really the catalyst for everything else, I guess.
• 2:17
  Michael: Yeah, and that's that's kind of how the genesis of the the HMDG story, how it started, which was you were 28 at the time, and I was it's gonna sound terrible, I was 41.
• 2:26
  Michael: Uh I was like, how do I how do I get this this chick to like me?
• 2:30
  Michael: And uh, well, let's do a marketing.
• 2:32
  Michael: She's a she's a physio and let's see how it how it goes.
• 2:35
  Michael: And that's where it all came.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Very easily pleased.
• 2:37
  Michael: Yeah.
• 2:37
  Michael: So we started it all through kind of meeting and doing a little bit of marketing.
• 2:42
  Michael: And on my side, I was running a failed company or failing and then failed company, um, which I think is really important because uh you learn a lot of lessons, and there we were, and we thought, well, let's start a company.
• 2:54
  Michael: Um, and and so we did.
• 2:56
  Michael: Did you think that we were going to become a big company?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely not.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't I don't really know what I thought at the beginning.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: We were just kind of going with the flow.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: It always surprised me um how well it went, I guess.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we had a small number of customers at the beginning, wanted to do amazing work for them, and it just kind of started to to snowball, but I guess imagined that we were going to be a bit more a lifestyle business.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to quit my job, that was my main goal, to be honest.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't really think beyond that, as long as it could get to the point where I could just do this and not have to be in my old job, then that that was all I needed, all I wanted to do.
• 3:40
  Michael: Yeah, it's hopefulless really.
• 3:41
  Michael: I I didn't want to go back to the corporate world.
• 3:43
  Michael: You didn't want to go and do medical sales, and I think you were a little bit sick of physio at that point as well.
• 3:48
  Michael: And and we just both wanted something that was going to pay the the bills and we'd have some fun doing it.
• 3:53
  Michael: And so we never imagined what would happen.
• 3:54
  Michael: But it just, as you say, it just snowballed, didn't it?
• 3:57
  Michael: And um before we knew it, I still remember there was a point at which we sold 300,000 pounds in the bank account, and we were like, holy shit, what what how did that happen?
• 4:06
  Michael: It was just literally out of nowhere.
• 4:08
  Michael: It was just so such a such a kind of it it it just sort of happened.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Not saying it wasn't incredibly hard work and all the rest of it, but I mean, it was insane hard work, more than I think it's probably good that we didn't have the ambition to be anything big, because I'm not sure we would have done it had we known how hard it would have been.
• 4:25
  Michael: Well, that's a good that's a good question.
• 4:27
  Michael: Would you would you do it all over again?
• 4:29
  Michael: Or well I suppose you would because here we are today and the life is good, but would you would you start another company?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, but not like the one we have now, I think.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think that is easier to say because obviously we're in a slightly different position now.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I think if I were to start another company, I'd probably want it to be a little smaller and easier to manage, just something work-life balance.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: I hate saying that, and what what even is that?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: But something that has a bit more, maybe, of that.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: But had I I would do it all again, because I know how it turns out.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: However, at the beginning, if I'd known just how hard it was, would I even have got into it?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: But like, would we have started if we knew how completely it was going to take over everything?
• 5:14
  Michael: And we'll get we'll get into that and what we went through.
• 5:18
  Michael: Um, because I think people often say it doesn't matter what company is, but they they see it from the outside and think, oh, isn't that sexy?
• 5:24
  Michael: Look at that.
• 5:25
  Michael: And then they don't actually realise just how fucking awful it is and the things we went through.
• 5:30
  Michael: Um, yeah, I I'm the same.
• 5:32
  Michael: I would never start another company.
• 5:33
  Michael: I think I might do something charitable for fun, but I don't think I'd ever fun that I'm not sure either of us are actually capable.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like you either put everything into it or you don't bother doing it at all.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: But theoretically, something fun and chilled.
• 5:46
  Michael: That's a good point, isn't it?
• 5:47
  Michael: It's like, could I, for example, particularly me, could I start another little company and stop it at a few hundred thousand pounds, or does it have to be a mega, mega thing?
• 5:56
  Michael: And I I I probably couldn't stop myself.
• 5:58
  Michael: Um do you think do you think that we were quite naive at the beginning?
• 6:02
  unknown: Yeah.
• 6:03
  Michael: Yeah.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: In every respect.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it actually makes my eyes water thinking about how little we knew about running a business or about anything, really.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I knew the physio industry, you knew how to do marketing, but there was so much else that linked in with all of that that we weren't aware of.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: It blows my mind, really.
• 6:23
  Michael: I mean, I did have a failed company, so that taught me a lot.
• 6:27
  Michael: I think there's no better lesson than having a failed company and realizing what you did wrong.
• 6:32
  Michael: And also it sort of shaped what we did in terms of how we structured the business of it.
• 6:36
  Michael: But I think going back to the barometer, for example, private practice barometer, I think it it's really interesting how we fit into that.
• 6:45
  Michael: And I think every business fits into that same sort of messy middle and that sort of curve where at the start you're really, really happy, and then it just gets shitter and shitter and shitter until you you you make more money.
• 6:55
  Michael: But even then, I don't think you necessarily become happy.
• 6:58
  Michael: People often think, you know, oh, you get your million-pound clinic and suddenly life's good.
• 7:01
  Michael: I can tell you that isn't the case.
• 7:03
  Michael: You may be happier, but you're probably still not as happy as when you first had your company and and life was simple.
• 7:09
  Michael: So yeah, I do think we were both quite naive.
• 7:11
  Michael: And one of the things I often say to people is that the thing that we we did that I think w was the most valuable decision we made was to get a really good accountant so we could understand our numbers.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think both of us would admit to not being great with numbers in general.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: But not not just that, there's so much to the account uh the business accounting side beyond just filing your taxes.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Had we not found Brent, I mean, you would be much worse off financially, but also organizationally as well.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: We actually had an accountant when we first started, you probably remember.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um was useless actually.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: But beyond that, he was quite judgmental.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: We weren't making an awful lot of money.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: I was 28 years old business owner.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: He did not take me seriously at all whatsoever.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: He basically ignored everything I tried to do.
• 8:03
  Michael: I remember specifically there was there were two things, well, actually, three things.
• 8:07
  Michael: One, corporation tax just turned up.
• 8:09
  Michael: Two was he just couldn't give a shit about us at the start.
• 8:12
  Michael: He certainly did when we got rid of him because we were making some money, and suddenly we became a more valuable client, which I hated.
• 8:17
  Michael: And the other thing was there was just no productivity at all.
• 8:20
  Michael: And as soon as we got Brent, and quick shout to uh outrise.co.uk, Evan Gillians, and Brent at Outrise, like absolutely changed everything about our lives because we suddenly understood.
• 8:30
  Michael: I I remember, I think we we we were doing about I don't know, I I can't remember, 15k a month or something.
• 8:36
  Michael: And we looked at the bank account and it was like, why is there not 15k in the bank account?
• 8:40
  Michael: We didn't understand it.
• 8:42
  Michael: And and with Brent, we suddenly understood where we stood and what was going on with the actual money and where it was going.
• 8:48
  Michael: And and then beyond that, it was tax advice and being more optimal in what we were doing, um, giving us information as well, and I think this is an important thing.
• 8:55
  Michael: He created this thing called Vision for us where we're able to see operationally across the business where the money was, where the expenses were.
• 9:03
  Michael: Um, and then if we wanted to hire someone, there's a really cool calculator.
• 9:06
  Michael: You know, you hire someone, this is what it takes off your corporation tax, but this is what it adds in national insurance.
• 9:11
  Michael: So we were really informed in in terms of what where the business stood.
• 9:15
  Michael: Uh, just a little plug for Clinic Signal.
• 9:17
  Michael: It's a it's a tool we've we've just released to customers, and that kind of to some extent does what Vision did, less from a financial perspective, but it gives you a much better oversight in into the business.
• 9:30
  Michael: And just a quick question, I suppose, a leading one.
• 9:33
  Michael: Do you think one of the biggest problems for clinic owners is the fact that they don't have real visibility of their numbers?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Massive problem.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I was I was just thinking actually, which which links in with this that clinic well, it doesn't necessarily just have to be clinic owners, but clinic owners in this context are clinicians, right?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's their main focus, that's their main skill.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: And there are so many other parts of running a business of which knowing your numbers are one, you're not going to be good at.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, some people will be, but most people are not going to be experts on every single part of their business.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the numbers side is something that I know a lot of people struggle with.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I do still personally to this day, I'm not a numbers person.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: I have to have something written out for me that says, this is where you are, this is where you want to get to, these are the figures for this, this, this, and this.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, would I be able to do that myself?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: No, probably not.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Is it absolutely crucial so that you know where you want to be, how you're doing, and everything in between?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's really clear for us to see with our clients the people who have a really good hold on their numbers and the people who have absolutely no idea, and that's no slight on them whatsoever.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: I just think I would always recommend if you are that person who has no idea about your numbers, maybe try and find someone who can help you because it's worth every penny of that investment if you get the wrong person.
• 11:00
  Michael: I think actually there is a very clear relationship between those that uh understand the numbers and the success of their businesses and those that don't.
• 11:09
  Michael: And it can be as as simple as uh I don't know, it can be as simple as uh paying people a percentage of um the an appointment versus P AYE.
• 11:19
  Michael: Most people that we talk to don't even consider they just pay 50% of an appointment price rather than I'm gonna pay you per appointment.
• 11:27
  Michael: Why is that important?
• 11:28
  Michael: Well, it means that every time you put your pricing up, put it up by£10, you don't get£10, you get five.
• 11:34
  Michael: But then you take into account the tax and everything else, you're probably getting£2.50 for a£10,£10 increase, and the clinician gets a£5 increase, which is kind of crazy, but it's knowing these little things and having someone who can dig down into that data and surface the things that are so important to any business.
• 11:52
  Michael: So another question is if current us met year one us, would we invest in ourselves?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, actually, I answered very quickly there.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Depends.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Would I invest in our business idea?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it was a great idea.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: I still think it it it's a great idea.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um would I invest in you at that point?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Would I have invested in me?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Possibly not.
• 12:20
  Michael: And we both laugh at that because Anna was absolutely useless.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't have any idea what I was doing.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: I had all the best intentions, and the reason I will stand up for myself here, I mean, the whole reason we started the company was because of these good intentions, really.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I had a lot to learn.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: So no, I would not have invested in myself.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: But the business idea, yes.
• 12:40
  Michael: You know, it was a really interesting experience though, because we were, and we'll get on to the relationship stuff, because I think there are a lot of clinic owners who who are in relationships with the business partner or just have a business partner at all.
• 12:53
  Michael: But I think um it was really interesting for us because we were able to separate the relationship and working to uh the relationship from working together.
• 13:01
  Michael: So I was able to, and remember people, I am of dinosaurs, so I shout a lot and get very frustrated, and I don't, you know, I take no prisoners, so there were times where I'm screaming at you um about how terrible you were at something or the mistakes that you made, because I am not a tolerator of mistakes, for example.
• 13:22
  Michael: I mean I mean, how many times did you hear accuracy is everything?
• 13:25
  Michael: Because it is, you've got to be accurate, especially when you've got a lot of clients, right?
• 13:29
  Michael: You you can't or or the other one I hate is that'll doism.
• 13:32
  Michael: And I think you had a little bit of that at the start, which was oh, it will do.
• 13:36
  Michael: No, it will not do.
• 13:37
  Michael: It will not do.
• 13:38
  Michael: And and so we we sh we uh well, I say we shouted, I shouted a lot, but then as soon as the work day ended, which was normally about 1 a.m., then it was back to normal.
• 13:47
  Michael: There was ne nothing ever that was, you know, hurt our relationship in any way.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: No, not at all.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: It almost felt like you were my boss at the beginning when we were working, because I was so much younger than you, you had so much more experience in all of this stuff, and if I had been in a work environment, would have been I I wouldn't have been running things.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: I would have had someone guiding me in whatever way they saw fit.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: But the fact that you weren't really my boss, that it was our business, it certainly learned a hell of a lot quicker and was a hell of a lot more dedicated, I think, than I would have been were I working for someone else.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: There was just a lot more at stake.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was our entire lives that were at stake.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I think you always make yourself sound terrible when you say you're screaming and shouting.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: But to be fair, I I didn't uh I like it wasn't in a in a terrible way.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's more that you know, we are putting so much into this, is it's so important.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that is why you were right, accuracy is important, being like a laxadaisical attitude, which I think I potentially when I was younger had a tendency to lean towards just being a bit too relaxed about things.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um needed I needed a little bit of a shake up, an entirely different human being today than I was back then, that's for sure.
• 15:07
  Michael: No, you absolutely are.
• 15:08
  Michael: And I think that you acted a little bit like an employee might at times.
• 15:13
  Michael: And I'm sure every clinic owner gets this, you know, when your physio is like, oh, I I I need a break, I want to go and get a haircut, or I want to do whatever it might be.
• 15:20
  Michael: And I'm like, there are no breaks, my friend.
• 15:23
  Michael: Like, we are getting this job done.
• 15:25
  Michael: If it takes us till 3 a.m., it takes us till 3 a.m.
• 15:28
  Michael: And if I see a mistake, that is a mistake and that will be rectified.
• 15:32
  Michael: And I don't care how little a mistake you think it is, it is not good enough.
• 15:36
  Michael: We we I think for me, everything about running a business is about creating the best possible products.
• 15:44
  Michael: And if you create the best possible product, no one's perfect, but if you create the best possible product, people will come, right?
• 15:50
  Michael: And for me, that means doing your absolute best.
• 15:54
  Michael: It doesn't mean that client can wait a few hours or oh, I'm gonna go to dinner.
• 15:58
  Michael: No, we we fix this before we go to dinner, you know?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: I also think right at the beginning for us, I still had a job.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so, and I think this actually is relevant to clinic owners as well, who maybe work either in the NHS or as part of a clinic but are trying to set something up on their own, still had a bit of a safety net, I suppose, also kind of felt initially I I don't it's difficult to describe it, but it wasn't like this is my full-time job, this is I'm putting everything into only this.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: I was still doing something else on the side, and then I was working on this, and I think actually it's quite having a business takes everything.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's really hard to be doing something else and be trying to set up a business too.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think just mentally it's very difficult to put as much energy as you need.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and actually what helped us was that I was put on furlough for COVID and then could channel everything into it, and then I never went back to my job.
• 16:52
  Michael: So well, without your wage, uh, we would have been a little bit work as well.
• 16:56
  Michael: I I'm interested in one question, which is um given you know how I do things and my my personality, how I operate, do you think in 2026 we could build the same company again?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it would be quite the same.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: If it were a company that was just you and I, then yeah, maybe.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think that the workforce is very different.
• 17:21
  Michael: I know you said you you're a dinosaur, I don't think you're quite at that level yet, but I think that the way you have to manage people, the way that not that you have to manage them necessarily, but the way people expect to be managed is actually very different from everything that you so so I suppose I and I I I think of this because I was chatting to a clinic owner very, very recently who's who was up in arms about um something that happened with one of their staff members.
• 17:48
  Michael: I won't go into it, it was something that happened with one of their staff members.
• 17:50
  Michael: Um and we both sat there, we're both in our 40s going, Jesus Christ, this would never have happened 20 years ago.
• 17:55
  Michael: You know, that kind of old person thinking.
• 17:57
  Michael: And she she was just amazed at at what you have to do.
• 18:00
  Michael: And then for me, just just the basic stuff, like, you know, there are new legal requirements, um, things that you can and can't do, the way that and I'm sure anyone who likes football, I I saw an interesting article or interview recently with with the old Man United team where they said Alex Ferguson would never have been able to behave today like he did back then.
• 18:22
  Michael: The world is a different place.
• 18:24
  Michael: And I do wonder whether um the kind of background that I had from that corporate world of coming in and and being very hard and having very exacting standards and expecting from people what I did, uh I don't know if that works today.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting because I suppose I'm kind of in between in terms of you had people who absolutely took no prisoners.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: The generation younger than me, uh everything seems to be extremely lax and it's quite bizarre to me.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I was somewhere in the middle.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's gonna be very interesting to see over the coming years how productive workforces are able to be, whilst being so having to be so relaxed and chilled about certain things.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think that the approach of taking no prisoners that gets results.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's no question about that.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Does it rub some people up the wrong way?
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, but it still gets results.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: And on one hand, I think you've got a business to run, you need to do what you gotta do to to get results.
• 19:22
  Michael: Well, I I I was speaking to a Dennis Kirner who said um we're talking about physicians.
• 19:27
  Michael: I said, make work a couple of extra hours.
• 19:28
  Michael: What are you talking about?
• 19:29
  Michael: And he said, Oh god, they quit on me, they would, you know.
• 19:32
  Michael: And the idea, for example, that uh, you know, five years ago, if I said, I don't care that it's bank holiday or that it's Friday night at 10 pm, you're doing the work, like that happened, right?
• 19:43
  Michael: I don't think you do that today.
• 19:44
  Michael: I think that uh can't do that.
• 19:47
  Michael: Number one, I don't think you can well, I don't know, but I don't imagine that you can.
• 19:50
  Michael: And number two, I don't think people would necessarily.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's it's the expectation of people now.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: I can't remember what role it was.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: It was years ago now that we were recruiting, and it was at entry level, like just out of university.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: These people have no experience at all.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the wages that they were asking for, number one.
• 20:07
  Michael: What this one goes she wanted 40k, she was first first year out of uni with no experience.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: No no experience, nothing at all, which was bizarre.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: So there's there's that side of things, but I think there's also and this isn't I'm not talking negatively about these people because it's just what they have that's just what they expect, it's just what's normal, but they expect to be given a lot and not necessarily have to give a lot back a lot of these people.
• 20:34
  Michael: This isn't necessarily about our team because we've got an amazing team.
• 20:37
  Michael: I think that um I uh you also and I will say this, you do have to change your way of working.
• 20:42
  Michael: So I you'll remember this quite clearly.
• 20:44
  Michael: We hired Beth, who was a brilliant marketing person, and I think she quit on us on day two because she'd made a mistake, and I launched into her for about 15 minutes about like how it's unacceptable and blah blah blah.
• 20:56
  Michael: And I I went for it and she resigned.
• 20:58
  Michael: And I was like, okay.
• 21:00
  Michael: And I chatted over to her not so long ago, and she said, you know, you've you've become a massive softie.
• 21:05
  Michael: I I think most I think most people in the business today would disagree that I'm a massive softy, but I'm certainly a softie compared to to where I used to be.
• 21:12
  Michael: So let's get into a uh question on um another relationship question, I suppose.
• 21:18
  Michael: I think I think we've always worked together really well.
• 21:21
  Michael: I think that there's never been a mix of necessarily work and and personal stuff.
• 21:26
  Michael: But do you think from a relationship perspective, we're in a better place than we would have been if we just had separate jobs and were doing other things?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, I think so.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason assuming, by the way, that one of us was work had a business.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you had set up a business, for example, and I hadn't, that would have been very hard.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because when we're both working this much and we're both pouring so much of ourselves into something, it's I understand, like we understand each other.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you're working really late at night, I'm probably doing the same thing, and vice versa.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if I came back from a nice cushion nine to five and you were working for six hours after that and ignoring me, which maybe would have been the case, I think that would have been quite tricky.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: I do think though that that's probably because of the people we are, we seem to work really well together.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: I do think that there are some couples who would kill each other if they worked together.
• 22:22
  Michael: I've I've heard that from people a lot.
• 22:25
  Michael: I posted a funny thing on Instagram because you'd gone away for a day or something or a night, and I was like, thank fuck, this is a like she's gone away.
• 22:33
  Michael: I've got a night off.
• 22:34
  Michael: And I think it was like only the third night we'd spent apart in four years or something.
• 22:38
  Michael: We we literally spent 24-7 together.
• 22:41
  Michael: But it's interesting because there's um I've heard this from a lot of clinic owners who who get a lot of grief from their partners because you know they're working their socks off, they get home at 8 p.m., they have dinner, they do some more work, and and they rarely see their other halves.
• 22:54
  Michael: And I think that must be really difficult.
• 22:56
  Michael: Whereas for us, we're doing the same thing and it was relatively easy.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: I do I do think it would be hard if just one of us was absent half the time.
• 23:03
  Michael: Well, I don't think you put up with me sort of going to bed at 3 a.m., waking up at 6 and doing nothing but working between sort of 6 and 3am.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's tricky.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you want you'd want to if that were me, I would want to be supportive of what you were doing and hope that it would obviously benefit our life in the long term.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I suppose at some point I might be like, literally never see you.
• 23:26
  Michael: No, exactly.
• 23:26
  Michael: I got ChatGPT to ask a few questions here, and uh it's quite funny.
• 23:31
  Michael: I would just read them all out because they are, I think, all very, very obvious.
• 23:35
  Michael: Who is harder to work with?
• 23:36
  Michael: Who spirals more emotionally?
• 23:38
  Michael: Who apologises less?
• 23:40
  Michael: Who obsesses more?
• 23:41
  Michael: Who takes criticism worse?
• 23:42
  Michael: Who would struggle more without the other professionally?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god.
• 23:47
  Michael: I mean, who is harder to work with?
• 23:50
  Michael: I think me, 100%.
• 23:52
  Michael: Who spirals more emotionally?
• 23:53
  Michael: Oh, I don't have emotions, so definitely not me.
• 23:56
  Michael: Who apologises less?
• 23:57
  Michael: I don't know if I've ever apologised.
• 23:59
  Michael: Who obsesses more?
• 24:00
  Michael: Christ, well, that's my autistic little self.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:04
  Michael: Who takes criticism worse?
• 24:05
  Michael: I mean, there's no reason to ever criticize me, so um, and who would struggle more without the other professionally?
• 24:11
  Michael: Do you know what that's a that's that's a more difficult question because something that people always thought was, you know, I I run the business or whatever, but actually I don't think that um, you know, my weaknesses have always been structure, have always been organization and so on.
• 24:25
  Michael: And although it's quite easy to go, oh Hannah would struggle without me, I'm not sure that's true.
• 24:30
  Michael: I think it's probably the other way around because I I don't think I would have been able to do it actually on my own without a person at least who could run the back office.
• 24:40
  Michael: Back office sounds sounds not very important, but actually run things and structure things properly.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: I actually think that's why we work well, is because each of us is better at something different.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like you are very much the vocal, I always call you the mouthpiece, that massively underplays what you are.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: But that that side of you is it's very visible.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're always talking to clients, you are the voice of the company, and you kind of are the brand, really.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: That is so far away from what I am comfortable with.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: I would not, I never like to say not be able to do it, because I think you can do anything, but I would not be able to do that.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: That wouldn't, that doesn't sit with me.
• 25:19
  Michael: I think there's a there's a clear delineation of responsibility.
• 25:22
  Michael: So you have never suggested or or tried to get involved with a commercial decision.
• 25:27
  Michael: It's like that's my skill, I do it.
• 25:29
  Michael: I have never got involved in in things that you know, from an organizational perspective.
• 25:34
  Michael: So we never ever had any arguments or disagreements because um no that's not to say I wouldn't run past and I always have run ideas past you.
• 25:44
  Michael: What do you think for a sense check?
• 25:46
  Michael: But I think that's another really important thing is is to have accountability and and someone to to be a sounding board.
• 25:52
  Michael: And this is something I think clinic owners miss massively, actually, which is having someone in the business who understands the business properly, who has a high degree of business knowledge to be able to bounce an idea off and say, what do you think about this?
• 26:05
  Michael: And if you're very, very lucky, you might have a practice manager that actually could do that job.
• 26:11
  Michael: But for most clinic owners, they're very, very isolated.
• 26:14
  Michael: We never had that.
• 26:15
  Michael: I mean, I I don't think you often ask me organizationally, what do I think?
• 26:18
  Michael: Because I'd say I don't care and what do I say?
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: No interest in knowing anything about it.
• 26:23
  Michael: No, but it would always be a I I would always always run things past you.
• 26:28
  Michael: Um, whether it's to this day if when I write my newsletter, um, although to be fair, I have to do that now because Ben the new owner is uh he doesn't want me to say words like, well, I I use the word recently.
• 26:42
  Michael: No, I'm not allowed to say on here either.
• 26:44
  Michael: So yeah, I I still run things by you, but I think that was really, really important.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: I I agree and also we've spoken about it before about how clinic owners I think kind of feel quite lonely, or business owners in general.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think that that's I feel lucky for both of us that we always had that, I don't like to say emotional support, because that sounds a little wishy-washy, but it kind of was just having people having someone there to celebrate all the good stuff, but also to support when it's needed as well.
• 27:14
  Michael: Well, I I think it it's also when you've had a shitty day.
• 27:17
  Michael: You're gonna say, I've had a shitty day, and the other person understands that.
• 27:20
  Michael: You know, the clinic owner, you go home to your other half and you say, I've had a shitty day, this happened, this happened.
• 27:25
  Michael: They don't get it.
• 27:26
  Michael: It's it's hard for them to really understand.
• 27:28
  Michael: It's hard for someone to understand, for example, how awful as a business owner it makes you feel when a client has been critical or is upset with you.
• 27:36
  Michael: I don't think, and I'm sure every MSK clinic owner has had this where it really it's like a dagger in your heart, especially if you have done something wrong.
• 27:44
  Michael: It's almost worse than if you haven't done something wrong.
• 27:47
  Michael: It's so hard and so hard to understand that.
• 27:49
  Michael: And yeah, I I think it's so important to have someone that gets it and who you can say this has happened, and and they say, Oh shit, yeah, okay.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: I completely agree.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: Although conversely, we you end up in a negative spiral on those days when you're both like, oh, it's so terrible.
• 28:04
  Michael: And and actually, I I uh I still it's a related story, but I still remember we got to 83,300 pounds, 400 pounds in recurring revenue.
• 28:15
  Michael: And do you remember we were so excited?
• 28:18
  Michael: We were like, my god, little old us, we've we've created a million pound company, and and we were so excited about it.
• 28:24
  Michael: And I think that was on a Wednesday, and then on the Friday, one of our clients had left.
• 28:29
  Michael: And not because of anything bad, they just decided they would leave.
• 28:32
  Michael: And we sat there and we were like, that's it.
• 28:34
  Michael: And for the rest of the weekend, we were contingency planning for the failing failure of the company, and it would just it would just go to us, and it was like, that's the end.
• 28:41
  Michael: So we forgot that we've just built a million-pound company, but it was like, that's it.
• 28:45
  Michael: What what are we gonna do?
• 28:46
  Michael: How are we gonna run this company as it as all of our clients slowly leave?
• 28:50
  Michael: And it was a ridiculous thought, but it it still shows you like just how hard it is and the emotional wear and tear.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's I think actually, for me at least, the hardest part out of everything is not the working hours or anything in terms of the content of the work necessarily, it's the emotional stress that is never ending and the pressure that you put on yourself, um, yeah, the basic constant state of panic that something is gonna go wrong and everything that you've ever worked for is going to explode.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that is the hardest part because that doesn't stop, even if you've got a day off, it doesn't stop.
• 29:28
  Michael: Well, this is this is we you know, you I get this all the time from clinics, they have two bad days or a bad week of not having any patients, and and sometimes it's actually not even true.
• 29:39
  Michael: You look at their actual numbers and it's like you're actually doing all right here, but you know, they're constantly worried because it is it it you know, business can be cyclical in that way, particularly in a demand-based business.
• 29:50
  Michael: And and a lot of the things that can change a business are not really under your control, and it and it is incredibly hard, and and people don't understand that, which brings us on to I I think uh one of the most important things I think for us that we went through, which was we we started small, then we grew very, very quickly, um, and continued growing.
• 30:10
  Michael: It was just up and to the right, basically.
• 30:12
  Michael: But there came a point where it wasn't about, like you say, work being hard, but it became actually a health-related issue.
• 30:19
  Michael: And so uh I I guess the question is did did either of us ever properly burn out?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: We both did, to be honest.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think we it just got I mean, our health was terrible.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't did no exercise, we ate terribly, literally the only thing that we did was was work.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: So from like a physical perspective, it was terrible.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Mentally, we were exhausted.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: Just I c I can't even describe it.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure lots of people listening to this probably understand that feeling where you're just exhausted all the time, but you're still plugging away, you're still going, there's panic all the time.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um there can be some hide that but but yeah, it's a high.
• 30:59
  Michael: So it's like it's like the um abusive partner.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly it is almost.
• 31:05
  Michael: You're addicted.
• 31:06
  Michael: Well, it's it's where you you you have a really bad time, right?
• 31:12
  Michael: And then everything's fine for a few days, and you you're like, oh, it's great.
• 31:16
  Michael: Running a business is wonderful, and then the next thing happens, and you're like, oh my god, it's like constant.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: And there would be, yeah, sometimes where you're like, this is so great, and we're so lucky.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: We take the team away to space, which we do every year, we go away somewhere, and I'd be like, This is so great.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: I can't believe we've done this, and I just have like a little warm, fuzzy feeling.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: We've got such a wonderful team, and everything's so great.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next week something would happen, and I'd be like, This is this is I'm trapped in this.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't know what to do.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: This is awful, and I can't get out of it.
• 31:49
  Michael: Yeah, it's very the burnout thing was interesting because I remember it was uh back in July 24.
• 31:54
  Michael: Do you remember I was I just started slurring my words?
• 31:57
  Michael: It was like what you calls to begin with where I couldn't, I I stopped remembering certain words.
• 32:03
  Michael: It was like asphasia or whatever it's called.
• 32:05
  Michael: And and then I started slurring my words on calls, and you started noticing it.
• 32:09
  Michael: And there was one particular day, I think it was a Thursday, I literally couldn't talk.
• 32:14
  Michael: I I I'm both fucking stroke.
• 32:17
  Michael: And uh then I couldn't remember the kids' names.
• 32:21
  Michael: And it was just it was so bad.
• 32:24
  Michael: And and I I I basically then said to the team, that's it, I'm out, and and I was like, right, I'm gonna go do a flotation tank, I'm gonna relax, I'm gonna get mattered.
• 32:32
  Michael: And I was and I get I had that break, and then on Monday I was back to normal.
• 32:36
  Michael: I was like, yes, I'm raring to go.
• 32:38
  Michael: And then by by Tuesday, I was slowing my words again.
• 32:40
  Michael: It was just so bad.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Problem is with you specifically, you have a very special brain, which is great in many ways, but you are incapable of switching your brain off.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: It just is always on the go.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so whereas I felt stressed all the time, I do have certain outlets where that help me switch my brain off.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: I've also very luckily always been a very good sleeper.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: So when I sleep, I sleep, and that does sound silly, but it does massively help.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas you do not have that, you don't sleep very much either.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that it was just a compounding effect of literally never having any time where you were relaxed in any capacity, and it just got it got too much.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: And as you said, you could have two days where you forced yourself to chill out a bit, but it just starts again the moment you start working again.
• 33:24
  Michael: So it was I I I still remember as well once because the team noticed it as well.
• 33:29
  Michael: I think I sent a message on Slack at 4 a.m.
• 33:32
  Michael: just before I was heading to bed.
• 33:33
  Michael: And Gabby had put down, like, what the fuck are you doing?
• 33:36
  Michael: Like, stop messaging at 4 a.m.
• 33:38
  Michael: Like, go to sleep, you know.
• 33:40
  Michael: But it was it was hard, and and and actually there was also a period, I think it was for three years that it was slightly over, where I drank every single day.
• 33:48
  Michael: Um, and I'm not stupid, I knew I knew what I was doing, but but I used alcohol um to kind of try and turn my brain off.
• 33:56
  Michael: And I drank every single day for three years, put on about 40 kilos of weight over that time, and it was it was the only way that I was able to cope with the pressure and the stress and and and the work and the two, three hours of sleep a night.
• 34:10
  Michael: And it was it was really, really bad.
• 34:12
  Michael: Like it was it was not clever.
• 34:14
  Michael: Um, and uh do you remember the month where we had a corporate delivery card and we spent a thousand pounds on deliveries?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, the amount of money we spent on delivery was horrifying.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'd still it makes me cringe thinking about it.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's it was awful.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: But the thing is, the last thing I want to do is cook a meal after we've been working god knows how many hours.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, eating wasn't really too healthy anyway, it wasn't really a priority.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Just get anything like it's quick and de-stresses me by eating.
• 34:43
  Michael: I I think it it just I never expected.
• 34:46
  Michael: I I saw an interesting video recently, and it was uh a person that said, Oh, I want to I want to start my own company so I can do nine to five and be my own boss.
• 34:52
  Michael: And I just thought about myself, good fucking luck, my friend.
• 34:56
  Michael: There is no way you're doing a nine to five and running successful business, and um no way you're your own boss.
• 35:02
  Michael: You have a lot of bosses, and all of them from you at all times, and many of them can be incredibly demanding.
• 35:10
  Michael: And and if you want to do things right, you you have to respond to that.
• 35:14
  Michael: And so we I just never expected our health to decline as much as it did.
• 35:19
  Michael: When we first met, I was a gym bunny.
• 35:21
  Michael: I'd go to the gym four times at five times a week, um, and we had time for it, and I'd cook healthy meals, and yes, I drank alcohol, but it wasn't every single night, right?
• 35:29
  Michael: And um it was it it I don't know, I I think that until you own a business, and some people have different coping methods, right?
• 35:37
  Michael: Yeah, but I think until you own a business, you don't truly understand the stress, the the just how hard it is.
• 35:44
  Michael: And I think it's also interesting that I hear from clinic owners a lot that teams just don't understand it.
• 35:49
  Michael: They they don't get it, they just they get their money and they don't truly understand like how little money there is and how and for you as a now we never had this, so our team was amazing, and they totally got it.
• 36:01
  Michael: I think one of the uh there was a meeting not so long ago where someone said to them, Would you um want to be entrepreneur and start your own business?
• 36:09
  Michael: And a few of them said, Yeah, we we we did, but now we saw what Hanno and Michael went through, no chance whatsoever.
• 36:16
  Michael: So our team were amazing, I have to say.
• 36:18
  Michael: They they really got it.
• 36:20
  Michael: But I think uh a lot of the time you can feel like you're doing all not for us, but certainly for a lot of clinic owners, doing all this hard work, you're putting food on their table, but to often taking less than them out of the business.
• 36:33
  Michael: And it's it's really hard, right?
• 36:35
  Michael: It it it until you run it.
• 36:37
  Michael: Like I say, you don't you never switch off.
• 36:39
  Michael: Do you remember we on our first holiday?
• 36:40
  Michael: We went on holiday for a week, we worked every day.
• 36:43
  Michael: There was no break.
• 36:44
  Michael: We still worked.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: We worked on every single holiday.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think the first holiday that didn't work was after we sold the company.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: Did we actually not work?
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: I feel maybe there was one holiday where we didn't, but the majority of them we have.
• 36:57
  Michael: So um let's talk about the realities of scaling a business.
• 37:04
  Michael: Because again, this this goes back to the the private practice barometer, and you know, it's it's relatively easy when you first start the business.
• 37:11
  Michael: You don't have lots of customers, you can and I always joke about how we pirated everything, we didn't have proper project management systems or anything like that.
• 37:19
  Michael: And you can get away with with a lot when you're small, and before you know it, you've grown to a stage where the pirating doesn't work anymore.
• 37:27
  Michael: You you've got to do things properly.
• 37:30
  Michael: When for you, at what stage does the business stop feeling small?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's a very good question.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have like a specific time where I think it's stopped, where I thought, okay, now we're we've taken it up to the next level.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: No, I d I don't have a specific answer for that.
• 37:45
  Michael: I think I wonder whether actually, Hannah, it was when we hit because we always had this target of hitting£20,000 recurring revenue.
• 37:53
  Michael: And for me, it was when we hit£20,000 recurring revenue.
• 37:56
  Michael: I was like, okay, this no longer feels small.
• 37:58
  Michael: And I remember we both kind of went, oh my god, we've hit that target, because that was our end target.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose interestingly, we're thinking about it in different ways because financially, absolutely.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking more about it in terms of like our our team and the size of the company in that way.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um which obviously correlates to a certain a certain extent.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I think from my perspective, having a bigger team is kind of an indication that we're at a stage that we're bigger, if that makes sense.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just interesting that we think about that differently.
• 38:31
  Michael: I immediately go to the commercial side and you go to the team side.
• 38:37
  Michael: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:38
  Michael: Um what broke has we scaled?
• 38:40
  Michael: What were what what were the things where we're like, oh Christ, this is this is not good.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I was saying this to one of the team the other day, I can't remember who, that every stage as we grew, we were fine, fine, fine, fine, fine.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then it got to a point where we're like, oh god, nothing is working, and we have to change everything and do it again.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think initially, and shout out to Bex if she listens to this, Bex was the first person who came into the company and started implementing like proper processes and systems and things like that.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we actually still use some of her things today, so it it has lasted.
• 39:13
  Michael: Well, she came in and she went, What the fuck is this?
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, horrifying.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: It was all we knew what was going on, and that was the thing.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: At that point, it was at a stage that I literally, you could have asked me anything about any client and I could tell you everything.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't even need it written down, but it got to that point where we're having more people involved, there are more clients, you need to have everything written and documented and systematized.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: So that was definitely the first point.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's definitely gone like this throughout the the process where we've needed to change things around to then fit in with everything else.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, going back to the team, as we have more and more people as part of a PPC team or as part of an SEO team or a web team, it's not just and one other person.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: We have to think about the training, we have to think about the fact that we can't keep control of everything, and people need to know what they're doing.
• 40:04
  Michael: HR systems, like we never need a HR system.
• 40:07
  Michael: But it's it's not like you scale, you make changes, and then you're done.
• 40:11
  Michael: It's constantly moving.
• 40:16
  Michael: I remember talking to Glenn Kern who said, Um, oh, I want to go from it was like 300,000, 600,000, and we're gonna get this many more patients, etc.
• 40:24
  Michael: And I said, What what's the structure look like when you get there?
• 40:27
  Michael: Because or to get there, and they didn't understand the question.
• 40:31
  Michael: And I said, Well, if you want an extra hundred patients a week, can you answer the phone to that many people?
• 40:36
  Michael: Can you um do you have the structure and the organization in place?
• 40:40
  Michael: Do you have the admin staff to be able to do those things?
• 40:43
  Michael: And it's something that we sort of missed, where it was like, oh, uh, I remember one particular month we got like, I can't remember what it was, 45 or 60 clients or something in a single month.
• 40:52
  Michael: And I was so excited, I was like, oh, it was a therapy live month.
• 40:54
  Michael: I was like, oh, this is amazing.
• 40:56
  Michael: And then it was like, oh shit, we are not set up for that.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: Gee, you know what?
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: That is possibly part of the reason we burnt out so much in certain stages, was because in some ways we have it easier than a physio clinic because with less, you know, if you have a physical clinic, there are certain physical things that need to be done.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas with us, you go and sell to 60 people, we're like, shit, we're a bit screwed, but we will just work extra hours to get it done.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we have the ability, we are exhausting ourselves to do that.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that was actually really tricky is making sure you have the correct infrastructure at the right time, but also that you're not implementing it too early so that you've got too many costs when you don't have the money coming in.
• 41:35
  Michael: I think there's a wider point as well, which is that which is specific to healthcare clinics in general, which is that we had the margins to just hire new people.
• 41:48
  Michael: We weren't limited in hiring new people.
• 41:50
  Michael: We could go and hire 10 people today for every job in the company, isn't what clinics can do.
• 41:54
  Michael: So scaling becomes much more difficult because they can't just say, oh, let's hire four people and on a leadership team or a CXO, or you can't do those things.
• 42:03
  Michael: And so often you you scale, but you can't offload the work to other people like you could in a different organization without massively damaging your margins, and margins are so tight that that means then taking a big pay cut yourself, which you may not be able to do due to family obligations and mortgages and everything else.
• 42:20
  Michael: So, in some ways, we had it a lot easier.
• 42:22
  Michael: It was hard, but we had it easier.
• 42:24
  Michael: We could just go and spend some money on on hiring someone.
• 42:27
  Michael: Um, talking of which, I'm gonna answer this one.
• 42:30
  Michael: And the question is what's what was what was the most surprising thing about leading people?
• 42:35
  Michael: And and I'll let you answer that as well.
• 42:37
  Michael: I think for me, the really interesting thing was that I learned very quickly.
• 42:42
  Michael: So I knew a lot anyway, because I've led big teams before, but I learned very quickly that it was a lot of give and take.
• 42:48
  Michael: And the more you you gave people, the more invested they were in the business.
• 42:53
  Michael: And I think you know, people often see me.
• 42:55
  Michael: I'm sure some of the team that know me less see me maybe sometimes as a little bit of a monster, but I think because of the way that I am and the way that I speak, but um I think, and you you can confirm this, I don't know how unbiased it is, but I'm probably also the most loyal, caring person that that most people know.
• 43:13
  Michael: And I realized that um the way you get the best out of people is is by actually giving a lot and by making sure that they're okay.
• 43:23
  Michael: And if they're if you invest in them, whether that's financially or emotionally or whatever, then they invest in the business.
• 43:30
  Michael: So that for me was was probably one of the most um obvious things.
• 43:33
  Michael: Yes, leading by example.
• 43:35
  Michael: I actually did an article because I as I see lots of people going on about leadership and it's all bullshit.
• 43:40
  Michael: For me, there's very obvious things.
• 43:41
  Michael: Go to the HMDG website and look, it's in the article or something about leadership.
• 43:46
  Michael: But for me, yes, the obvious things you be be on time for meetings, otherwise, you can't expect other people to be on time.
• 43:51
  Michael: Be first in and last out.
• 43:52
  Michael: These are obvious leadership qualities, but I think a a really key one is being a really kind person.
• 43:58
  Michael: And we we have always Done a lot for the team, I think.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: I completely agree with that.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I also think that trying to in our case anyway, and this probably wouldn't be the case in giant corporates necessarily, but trying to get the team to see what it was that we wanted to build and the this sounds so cheesy, but I'm just gonna plow on with it.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: But like we genuinely want and still want to help people.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if I like to think that the team get that and have bought into that, and they've seen that the whole point of our company is yeah, we're a business, obviously, we want to make money, but more than that, we we genuinely want to help people improve their businesses, and that is the whole reason we're we're doing this.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that if you can get your team to truly understand that, they're going to be much more brought into the business as a whole.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, linked in with what you said too, you treat them plea and kindly and they'll want to give back as well.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: But if they also really believe that what they're doing makes a difference to people and they really want to do that, I think that's one of the most motivating things that you could could kind of do.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's not actually with our team, it's been quite easy, but I can see how it's not always easy to do that though.
• 45:13
  Michael: Well, particularly, you know, RPAYE, we have the ability to do things culturally, to build a culture within the business.
• 45:20
  Michael: Clinics can't, you know, we can take people on holidays and whatever.
• 45:23
  Michael: Um, you can't do that necessarily as a clinic.
• 45:25
  Michael: Um, and if you're if you're full of contractors, that's very difficult to build a culture and to to get people invested in the business because you know, often with a lot of clinics, you're basing room rental businesses.
• 45:35
  Michael: And and and so I think that's quite difficult.
• 45:37
  Michael: Well, I think certainly for us with the team, I I also didn't realise how much patience I would need to try and I mean I have very little anyway, but you really have to have patience um with people.
• 45:48
  Michael: I I I think also you have to understand that not everyone, and and this is an obvious one, not everyone's gonna love the business as much as you, of course not.
• 45:56
  Michael: But you also can't expect people to be just like you, and everyone has their own skills and abilities.
• 46:02
  Michael: Um, and that was another interesting thing because I I I you know my background is is working with a ton of other corporate sociopaths who are killers, right?
• 46:11
  Michael: And the thing is you can't fill a company that works with clinic owners with killers.
• 46:14
  Michael: I don't think the brand would survive that very well, but it it it has been an interesting journey, and then of course, over time things change in terms of leading a much smaller team is way easier than leading a bigger team.
• 46:27
  Michael: And and you know, I think I've always said to people when they've asked what were the reasons for selling, and one of them for me is or was I do not have the skill set to run a team of 20, 30 people.
• 46:37
  Michael: That's just not me.
• 46:38
  Michael: I'll build your business with 10 people and I'll smash it.
• 46:41
  Michael: But when you start talking about a bigger organization, I am not the right person culturally to do that.
• 46:47
  Michael: I think you are.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um we are obviously very different, and I do find that side of things a bit easier than you.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: Saying that, you are a natural-born leader.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: So whilst there are certain things that you do that probably um aren't as suited to running a bigger team, you are very good at um motivating.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I I've always seen that throughout whatever size of team we have, you are you are very good at doing that.
• 47:13
  Michael: Um maybe I'm just a bit more scary at times.
• 47:15
  Michael: Although that's a funny point.
• 47:17
  Michael: It's like I I I think I have often come across as scary.
• 47:20
  Michael: What people didn't realise was I have a temper and I'll come across as scary and I'll be very pissed off.
• 47:26
  Michael: Within five minutes, I've completely forgotten what I was pissed off about because I've moved on to the next thing.
• 47:30
  Michael: You hold grudges, you're the scary one.
• 47:33
  Michael: And and I think the older team realize that like if you're gonna get fired, it's not because of Michael, it's because of Hannah.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like she's well, the thing is, it takes quite a lot to get me pissed off, right?
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm quite generally a nice laid-back person in general.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: So if you've got me in general, other than it depends on what day you catch me, but if you've pushed me to a a point, then you've obviously done something particularly bad.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that's you're right.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think some of the older team members possibly be realised that our new team members are going to be listening to this thinking, oh shit, so I better not piss her off.
• 48:03
  Michael: Well, they better not.
• 48:04
  Michael: It it's I like I say, I can get my my temper goes and I'll have to get a shout, the next day I'm the one calming you down, saying, No, we can't fire four people.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: Don't ever want to fire anyone, to be clear.
• 48:16
  Michael: One thing that people often think is that as you scale and you start making more money, things become easier.
• 48:21
  Michael: Do you think they do?
• 48:22
  Michael: Do you think you become calmer, you've got money now, you don't have to worry so much about you know paying the electricity bill next month.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: For me, that was not the case at all in any way.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know whether that is for I can see how it might be for some people.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: For me, and maybe this just speaks to me and my mentality, but I just kept thinking we've got more to lose now.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I felt more stressed the more we made.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: Also, that there's more at stake in terms of if everything falls over tomorrow, we have people that we employ that I care about and I don't want them to be out on the limits, not just us.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it all just becomes much more real, I think, as you as you grow.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: I can see that you know, as you do make more money, yes, you you're not worrying about your next phone bill or whatever.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: So that from that perspective, it's nice, but then there are just it's replaced with other worries, isn't it?
• 49:12
  Michael: I think yeah, they it's replaced with other worries and they're all often bigger.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:17
  Michael: Because you've got more to lose, they tend to turn into bigger problems.
• 49:20
  Michael: I certainly wasn't all that stressed.
• 49:22
  Michael: I mean, it worked hard, but I wasn't all that stressed or or anxious about stuff um or worried about stuff when we were quite small.
• 49:29
  Michael: But the more you grow, the bigger the potential problems, the more you have to lose.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: And if you make a mistake, not not in terms of like a client account or anything, but in terms of the business itself, then the impact of that could be huge.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas before it it probably wouldn't have been.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that could be anything from I mean, we've again shout out to Brent.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um accounting and financials were always great, but you know, you forget to pay a tax bill or do something like this when you're not making any money, it's not the end of the world.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: When you're making much more, that could be really, really awful cash flow, terrible.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, I think, and yeah, maybe this is just the people that we are, but I definitely felt more stressed as we were making.
• 50:16
  Michael: I certainly did.
• 50:17
  Michael: Uh and and again, you get more team members, more issues as good as your team are.
• 50:22
  Michael: There's always an issue somewhere, or and the more clients you have, you know.
• 50:25
  Michael: I always say when you if you can make 1% of mistakes as a business with clients, you're doing pretty well.
• 50:32
  Michael: It's fine if you've got 20 clients.
• 50:34
  Michael: If you've got a million clients, now you're fucked.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that's actually what been one of the hardest things for me as we've grown is that when we were smaller and we were dealing with things, number one, as you said, fewer clients, fewer things going wrong.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: But also, if they did go wrong, we were in control of it and we would fix it and it would all be fine.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: And we take all of this stuff so personally that even now I I can't bear it if something goes wrong, I'll do anything to fix it.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because always our intention to do the absolute best that we can.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: And as we grew and as I had less control, and as that 1% of things going wrong became a larger number of people, it very much affected me day to day when those things did quite.
• 51:15
  Michael: And I don't think whether it's the team or clients, I don't think I I think clients could if they put themselves into the same position or if they thought about their own businesses, but I don't think the team or the clients quite understand often how much it hurts when you do do something with a mistake.
• 51:31
  Michael: And there's nothing that that you do ever on purpose, but mistakes happen.
• 51:35
  Michael: And and our job is to do absolute our absolute best to fix it.
• 51:40
  Michael: But at the end of the day, something I was chatting to Greg, one of our clients last night on WhatsApp.
• 51:45
  Michael: He had a few gins and and we talked about the funny time where he sent me some drunken messages on a Friday night shouting at us because we got some pictures wrong on his website, and he was like, I expect better.
• 51:57
  Michael: I and I got everyone out of bed, and it was like we're getting this fixed immediately.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: I had everyone out of bed, I think that was actually me at 11:30.
• 52:06
  Michael: And and the thing is, when you become a much big bigger company, you can't do that, you know?
• 52:11
  Michael: And um it is it is it is really, really difficult as you grow.
• 52:16
  Michael: It just feels to me like the the problems are bigger, but then also the the risk is is much bigger.
• 52:21
  Michael: One of the phrases most people will not be surprised by this that I hate is work-life balance.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: I said that earlier.
• 52:29
  Michael: I cringe whenever I hear that.
• 52:31
  Michael: I think that uh well, I won't get into it, but do you think it's possible to run a really successful business and have work-life balance?
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: Don't think so.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_00: The only way I think, well, you said to have to run it.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think you can own it and have a work-life balance if you employ people to run it.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're running it specifically yourself, then no.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because things don't fit into a nice nine to five in the business.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: There's always going to be things out of hours that even if you're a clinic owner and you close at whatever time, there's gonna be things that need to be done constantly, always.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't truly believe that you can have a full work-life balance and a growing, thriving business.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_00: Can you have a smaller business and have more of a work-life balance?
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're talking about a kind of growing business, then no, I don't think that exists.
• 53:20
  Michael: Yeah, I think lots of people would disagree with us.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, and that might be again a reflection on us.
• 53:26
  Michael: It could be, but I I don't think that you can either.
• 53:30
  Michael: Um, I think that I and I think that it's difficult to do it with the team that is all about work-life balance, because I think you need the team to be much more committed.
• 53:39
  Michael: You know, I don't think we could have done what we did without a team, whether it was Bex uh, you know, chatting with me at 9 pm to go over stuff, or uh Gabby answering calls or Tom working 20-hour days or whoever it was.
• 53:53
  Michael: Um, I I'm not sure we could have we we could have done what we did.
• 53:57
  Michael: And and I think also just from a from a business owner's perspective, I suppose this goes back to accepting certain things.
• 54:07
  Michael: For example, I don't know how many days it is now.
• 54:09
  Michael: Is it 35 days I've worked in a row without a single day off at minimum 15 hours a day or whatever?
• 54:15
  Michael: And then you hear the team, someone in the team talk about their work-life balance and how they you're sort of, you know, sort of sat there going, okay, we'll talk about your work-life balance.
• 54:23
  Michael: Uh but I I I think it's it it's necessary.
• 54:26
  Michael: On the other hand, I I'm sure there are some outliers out there who are able to um run incredible businesses.
• 54:35
  Michael: And I suppose it depends on the kind of business it is.
• 54:37
  Michael: I think for us, maybe it's more difficult because it's a 24-7 business.
• 54:40
  Michael: I think the clinic owner, maybe it's slightly easier, slightly.
• 54:44
  Michael: It's not that you don't think about the business, I suppose, at 10 pm, but you're not necessarily well, maybe you are doing work at 10 pm, whether it's you're doing your patient notes or whatever it might be.
• 54:53
  Michael: But I would be interested um to know what other people think on on the notion of work-life balance.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: You too.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I would I would love to know, like, if we had had uh some level of work-life balance of where we would have got to.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: I j I just don't think it was possible for us.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: As you said, it might be different in different areas like clinic owners, it might be different, but so so I suppose there's also we've talked about the health costs of running business, but there's the emotional cost.
• 55:20
  Michael: And something that we understood very early on was, and I literally did a talk on this the other day.
• 55:25
  Michael: Uh I asked the the team who our clients are, and some said, you know, MSK clinic owners are no, our clients are very worried business owners who are struggling day to day.
• 55:36
  Michael: And I include, by the way, for anyone who thinks, oh, that's just the the one-man bands, I include the million-pound clinics here, right?
• 55:42
  Michael: That they are in the main, they are struggling.
• 55:45
  Michael: And we we we understood very quickly that our customers were often struggling businesses.
• 55:50
  Michael: They were often exhausted, there was always financial stress, they were healthcare people without a huge amount of business training or commercial experience.
• 55:59
  Michael: Um, often they had imposter syndrome.
• 56:02
  Michael: Um, so getting them to change their price slightly just to maybe make a, you know, make a little dent in in the bank it was not something you could do.
• 56:11
  Michael: They were often emotionally sort of drained, which meant that, and uh the reason this relates to it is it it it meant that we had to build a business to work with those people, which meant that I needed to make myself available on the Saturday and a Sunday to take calls.
• 56:28
  Michael: To this day, I'll have clinic owners WhatsApping me at 10 pm and saying I'm a bit worried about um the business or whatever it might be.
• 56:35
  Michael: Do you think um one of the reasons that work life bans was a no-go for us was because we cared too much?
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely, 100%.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: I the amount of days, weeks that I have done unnecessary work for people over and above what they pay us for because I genuinely care and want to help them.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: But then I also think I don't feel like bad for myself that we did that.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's I like to think anyway, that's what helped us become successful is that the business has continued their backs.
• 57:09
  Michael: Yeah, it's it's all the business continues to grow.
• 57:12
  Michael: Today we had a a a team of four or five of the team on a on a call with a client.
• 57:17
  Michael: Um, I don't know how much money they pay us, but you know, for an hour, that's a lot of money.
• 57:22
  Michael: I I don't think their entire service cost covers that.
• 57:25
  Michael: Now that's not a complaint, that's just what we do.
• 57:27
  Michael: I think that what probably what our customers sometimes, and by the way, it's not just our customers, it would be customers of any business.
• 57:36
  Michael: Um I think sometimes they expect a lot more than they're paying for.
• 57:40
  Michael: But I'd never forget a clinic owner messaging me about something that had nothing to do with what we bill them for at 10 a.m.
• 57:45
  Michael: And by 4 p.m.
• 57:46
  Michael: I've got a shitty message saying, if you're not gonna answer my message, then and I'm like, dude, like I get about 300 emails a day.
• 57:53
  Michael: Like, give me a chance.
• 57:54
  Michael: Um and I don't mind that because again, who are business owners?
• 57:57
  Michael: They're worries, they're blah, blah, blah, all of that stuff.
• 58:00
  Michael: And so, so we kind of put up with it, but we did care a lot what's still due.
• 58:04
  Michael: And so that kind of led into a lot of the stress, lack of work-life balance, and so on.
• 58:10
  Michael: And to this day, I think it still still happens.
• 58:12
  Michael: Um, and then beyond that, we we do a lot of stuff, whether it's uh HMDG Connect, whether it's new clinic signal, whether it's the tools that we create, um, whether it's the free consulting that we give.
• 58:23
  Michael: But but for me, the reason that we do that is because I always this is a core belief of mine.
• 58:29
  Michael: You should build a great product and then you'll make money.
• 58:33
  Michael: I think what most people do is they do it the other way around.
• 58:35
  Michael: They want to make money and they build a product to make money.
• 58:38
  Michael: And I think that's always very short term.
• 58:40
  Michael: And I don't think you end up with a a particularly great business.
• 58:43
  Michael: So for us, we did care.
• 58:45
  Michael: And I do you remember when we first met, you were talking about, we won't mention the agency, but you're using an agency who had overcharged you for a logo and some other stuff.
• 58:54
  Michael: And you were like, I never want anyone else to go through that.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_00: It was yeah, it wasn't even just a logo.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, I was young when I used these guys, mid-twenties.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: I really wanted to start up a business.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: I had no idea what I was doing.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_00: I had no idea what SEO was or anything was, and they um not only overcharged me for a logo and a really shoddy website, but they were charging me ridiculous amounts for SEO.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: And now, knowing what I know, there is absolutely no way they were doing anything.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: They just were not doing anything.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and the explanations of things that they were doing, it was just all nonsense.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I just don't like that.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's fair that you should take advantage of people who don't know that area, who were just trying to make something good.
• 59:39
  Michael: Well, listen, it is it is no different to being a patient and walking into a dodgy clinic and then telling you you need 20 appointments to fix something, right?
• 59:49
  Michael: It's it's not acceptable, it's not good enough.
• 59:51
  Michael: And and that's something if you truly care about the clients, you want to make sure that they don't have that experience.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, that was the whole reason that we pushed forward with it, really, wasn't it?
• 1:00:03
  Michael: Have you ever Because I think I don't think uh many clients know how much we did do now behind the scenes.
• 1:00:13
  Michael: Uh I don't think many clients No, not you know, we we don't run around shouting about how much we did or do, but do you think or have you ever felt a bit underappreciated?
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I suppose sometimes, probably just on those days when you're feeling a bit, a bit shitty.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think probably from my perspective, because I am much more behind the scenes, sometimes I'm a bit like, hello, I like I set this business up as well, like I actually work my ass off too.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't happen very often.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that I think the odd day when you're having a bad day or you see something and you're like, oh, it just frustrates me.
• 1:00:47
  Michael: I suppose I'm at the the the cold face of it, though is I I get the calls from the clients who say I'm really unhappy.
• 1:00:53
  Michael: Nowadays it's I put myself through Chat GPT and it's like, oh Christ almighty.
• 1:00:58
  Michael: I do sometimes personally feel quite underappreciated given what we might do.
• 1:01:02
  Michael: You know, we've put in uh 12 hours of work for your 200 pounds, and then you you get upset with us.
• 1:01:09
  Michael: Now we we to be clear, we understand that because again, who are our clients?
• 1:01:15
  Michael: So we understand that the stress of it and so on.
• 1:01:18
  Michael: But I do sometimes feel like, uh and by the way, I'm sure every clinician out there is sat there going, I did so much for this patient, I saw them more, I did their letters for free, I didn't charge them, I took them to their bloody consult, and then the patient gives me a three-star review.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: But you know what's also tricky is that if you then were like, Here you go, here's a list of everything that I've done, I'll show you how much that we've done for you, you would come across really bizarre and almost defensive.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you you obviously can't do that.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think there's this and this is natural, when people don't fully understand everything that is going on behind the scenes, it's natural for people to underestimate what goes into it, I think.
• 1:01:59
  Michael: I think it's for any business owner, right?
• 1:02:01
  Michael: It's it's the patient who gets upset because they came in 15 minutes late and you've got to knock 15 minutes off their appointment time, and they're sat there really angry, and you're like, look, I've got other patients, and by the way, I don't make any bloody money.
• 1:02:15
  Michael: This is a struggle for me, and and I can't afford to just give them.
• 1:02:18
  Michael: So I think in any industry, I think I think it's exactly the same.
• 1:02:22
  Michael: And so I don't think it's unique to us.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think whenever you're dealing with lots of different people as well, there are always gonna be different personalities, and the majority of people are absolutely wonderful, and even if they don't understand something, if you explain something to them, they they get it, and and that's great.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_00: But clin clinical will have this too.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_00: There's always gonna be the odd person who whatever you do is just is not going to be happy, and that's tricky because they always want to make them happy.
• 1:02:47
  Michael: So yeah, and I think sometimes as well, like something I've done before is I won't mention them, but do you remember we were away and got a call or an email, really angry email from a customer?
• 1:02:59
  Michael: And I was like, listen, I'm in a different time zone, but let me get onto this as soon as the team's awake.
• 1:03:04
  Michael: I'm so sorry, etc.
• 1:03:06
  Michael: etc.
• 1:03:06
  Michael: And he went, Oh, okay, uh, actually don't worry about it.
• 1:03:10
  Michael: I've just had a really bad day, uh, and I'm sort of lashing out a little bit.
• 1:03:13
  Michael: And I was like, okay, so you get that as well, right?
• 1:03:16
  Michael: You you you and you have to understand that, which is which is one of those things.
• 1:03:20
  Michael: I think another thing that's interesting is when you and this is this is I suppose specifically to us and healthcare clinics in a way, um, because we care, one of the things I'm often accused of is is being critical of things.
• 1:03:36
  Michael: And one of the things I'm critical about is the bullshit that I see in the industry, whether that's gurus or you know, the the get your 30 patients in 30 days nonsense.
• 1:03:46
  Michael: And something that we, and it goes back to you and and not wanting to do stupid stuff, something that that we have always been very, very keen on is being incredibly ethical and not doing things, not overcharging, not asking people or telling people to do things they shouldn't need to do, and certainly being critical of an industry which is full of gurus who are just there to try and make money out of out of people.
• 1:04:07
  Michael: Um, and I think that's been quite central to, you know, when it comes when we go back to caring about clients, is that we do a lot because we care.
• 1:04:17
  Michael: Um, and I think that that that's something that that has been really important for us.
• 1:04:22
  Michael: And and I suppose the same goes with clinics who are not overselling, over-treating, who are not using the latest snazzy device that shapes and rumbles a little bit, you know?
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like we don't doesn't it wouldn't sit well with me to offer something to someone just so we could get some cash that doesn't actually help them.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like that to me is mad.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think also in terms of you being vocal about it, it's because we're very, and you but us as well, are very passionate about people not being taken advantage of.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when marketing is something that most, not all, but most clinical owners don't fully understand, because why should they?
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're not marketeers.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_00: So to have people who do fully understand it trying to take advantage of people who don't and take their money that is hard-earned and is not in full supply is really frustrating to me.
• 1:05:12
  Michael: But it's marketing and business.
• 1:05:13
  Michael: I was chatting to to Jack Chu yesterday, and I was talking about when you are in massive pain, you become very vulnerable, no matter how intelligent you think you are, and you become very vulnerable.
• 1:05:23
  Michael: And the same goes for when you've got a business that's really struggling and someone offers you a silver bullet.
• 1:05:29
  Michael: It's very it doesn't make you stupid taking it, um, because you're you're struggling.
• 1:05:34
  Michael: And when someone says that I can turn you in into a million-pound clinic within the next six months, just pay me 20 grand or two grand or eight hundred quid a month or whatever it is.
• 1:05:42
  Michael: Um, it's that stuff that I I really hate.
• 1:05:45
  Michael: It's that stuff that I really dislike because you're just like taking advantage of patients, you're taking advantage of vulnerable business owners who who want to run a great business, but you're basically emptying their bank accounts.
• 1:05:56
  Michael: And it's very easy, it's actually very easy to do.
• 1:06:00
  Michael: Honestly, I I truly believe this.
• 1:06:01
  Michael: I think I could build a million pound business within a year selling a 10X Michael Schumacher course on how to turn your clinic into a million pound clinic.
• 1:06:09
  Michael: And and someone might say, Yeah, but you've never built a million pound clinic.
• 1:06:12
  Michael: No, I haven't.
• 1:06:13
  Michael: But nor has a single guru, uh, and I'll call them a guru, not nor is a single coach or guru in this industry either.
• 1:06:20
  Michael: So, you know, uh and that and that stuff, it genuinely bothers me.
• 1:06:24
  Michael: I could go on a polemic on on this for for about an hour because it just, you know, I remember being incredibly vulnerable as a student and not having very much money.
• 1:06:32
  Michael: I remember when we started the business being in a an absolute state and having zero money.
• 1:06:38
  Michael: And and we were very fortunate and lucky that we had a little bit of experience from me, but beyond that, we had people who were able to kind of give us a kick.
• 1:06:48
  Michael: And that's some of what we want to do.
• 1:06:49
  Michael: Which sometimes I think, you know, that the more that we tried to make the company better and the more we tried to care, the more emotionally exhausting it sort of became to run.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we take everything is taken on internally.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's very hard to separate yourself from it because we do genuinely really care.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I've said that too many times, but we genuinely do.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think the moment we stop caring, I wouldn't be able to to do it anymore because it it would be too hard and for for what?
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_00: But the reason we do it is because this is important.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_00: And for all of the difficulties and bad days, when we hear that clients are doing really well, or we get some positive feedback, or there was one client who is still a client, but this was years ago, and he said that he likes working with us because we don't make him feel silly for not understanding what we do, and that was that was the whole point of everything that we've built.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I will bang on about that compliment for the rest of time because that was just yeah, it makes it all kind of worth it.
• 1:07:55
  Michael: The earliest time for me was when COVID hit, and we had just really started to break even, basically.
• 1:08:00
  Michael: And the majority of clinics, it's unlike this now, but the majority of clinics at the time we work with are actually quite small clinics.
• 1:08:06
  Michael: And I remember sending out the email to our dirty customers or whatever it was, saying, Um, I understand that life is really tough right now and you're closing down clinics and you probably don't have the money, or you may not have the money to pay us.
• 1:08:18
  Michael: Um, don't take the piss.
• 1:08:19
  Michael: But if you generally can't, but this isn't a payment holiday where you have to pay us back, just tell us you can't afford to pay us and we'll wipe it.
• 1:08:25
  Michael: But remember, we're a small company.
• 1:08:27
  Michael: There are a number of companies who responded, and I think everyone is still a customer to this day, who said, You're the first and only people who aren't taking a piss.
• 1:08:36
  Michael: You're the first people that have genuinely cared and and looked after us.
• 1:08:39
  Michael: And it turned out to be like the best marketing thing we'd ever done.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_02: Not actually.
• 1:08:43
  Michael: They all became ambassadors, but it wasn't about that.
• 1:08:46
  Michael: It was genuinely, I didn't want to be re and we didn't want to be responsible for someone paying our bill when they genuinely couldn't afford it and couldn't afford to pay the the bills.
• 1:08:55
  Michael: Then people got bounce back loans, and suddenly suddenly the business went crazy, which which actually brings us on to another topic, which is luck.
• 1:09:04
  Michael: If I asked you what percentage of um HMDG was just pure luck, what would you say?
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_00: Most of it.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_00: To be honest.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there are so many things that could have been one degree different and it wouldn't have well, company wouldn't even have been a thing.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_00: If I hadn't chosen to do a physio degree, wouldn't have been a thing.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_00: If we hadn't have met, wouldn't have been a thing.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_00: If COVID hadn't happened, it would have been actually maybe it would have still been something, but it's certainly as horrific as it was, it did help us business-wise in a variety of ways.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_00: We met certain people along the way that have been amazing and have really helped us.
• 1:09:41
  Michael: Lucky in hiring the right people at the right times, right?
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because that can make a massive difference if you hire shoddy people at the beginning where you really need them to be amazing.
• 1:09:53
  Michael: Luck, luck in in luck in the relationships we built, right?
• 1:09:57
  Michael: Whether it was Jack and Physiomatters or or whoever else, I I think so much of it, uh and I said this on the podcast not so long ago where someone said, Oh, you're amazing, look what you've achieved, and uh and I was like, No, no, no, no.
• 1:10:09
  Michael: Like it's it's luck, it's hard work.
• 1:10:11
  Michael: I I'm not gonna deny that.
• 1:10:12
  Michael: And you know, we've gone through the fact that I turned into a raging alcoholic for for three years.
• 1:10:17
  Michael: It's hard work, but um luck plays such a massive part, and you can't go around patting yourself on the back too much and saying, Oh, look at me, aren't I wonderful?
• 1:10:25
  Michael: Because on the other side of that is if something doesn't go quite right, you've got to then murder yourself for for being short.
• 1:10:32
  Michael: And I and I think um 50% of everything is is luck at the very best.
• 1:10:37
  Michael: So I think that was that was very lucky.
• 1:10:39
  Michael: But then like you say, COVID, I think was uh lucky.
• 1:10:42
  Michael: The timing actually of when we even started it was lucky because there was I think one other company out there, which is the company that we're talking about, who were absolutely awful.
• 1:10:53
  Michael: And so we went into a market that had no competition.
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, all we really did was capitalise on the luck that was put or we we presented with opportunities because we were lucky, and we just pushed forward with those, I think.
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_00: The only thing I will pat us on the back for is perseverance against all odds, because I think that's where a lot of people potentially would even with the same luck have fallen, where they were like, This is not worth it, I'm gonna stop there.
• 1:11:20
  Michael: But that's but even then, like, and I told the story a few times, it was like December 19, and and I we had like seven quid in the bank account and couldn't afford to even buy the kids Christmas presents, right?
• 1:11:34
  Michael: And without my ex-wife giving us 15 grand, right?
• 1:11:38
  Michael: And without you then getting, I don't know even how you did it, getting a 10 grand loan out, we we would have been done.
• 1:11:44
  Michael: Like, and and and that was luck, right?
• 1:11:46
  Michael: Not many people's not many people's ex-wives go, here you go, there's 15 grand.
• 1:11:50
  Michael: Now, trust me, she's made her money back out of that, but not many people get that, right?
• 1:11:55
  Michael: And and uh how on earth did you get a 10 grand loan?
• 1:11:58
  Michael: You had like the worst critic in the world.
• 1:12:01
  Michael: Um so yes, it we we had perseverance, but we you could have had all the perseverance in the world if we didn't have that money, it would have been a dead business.
• 1:12:09
  Michael: So I think that's yeah, I d I what I don't want to do is just say um none none of this was to do with any kind of skill or or any kind of hard work, because there's certainly a little bit to it, but I just don't want anyone to ever think that there's some magic formula other than hope for the best and work really bloody hard.
• 1:12:27
  Michael: And and actually one other thing is be a nice person.
• 1:12:30
  Michael: I think that's really key.
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I agree.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think that you will find some people screw you over by doing that, but it's okay because at least you can sleep well at night.
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think it always, if you're a good person, you always know you've done the right thing, then it usually comes back around with other people being good to you as well.
• 1:12:47
  Michael: Yeah, and we got screwed over um a few times.
• 1:12:50
  Michael: We definitely got screwed over a few times, whether that was by a member of staff we were being very, very kind to, or whether that was well, let's not go into it, but we were definitely screwed over.
• 1:13:00
  Michael: But for me, it's not the most spiritual person, as people who know me will know.
• 1:13:06
  Michael: But I do believe in a little bit of karma.
• 1:13:08
  Michael: If you're a really good person and you you um do your best, then generally you'll find that you surround yourself with other people who were the same.
• 1:13:15
  Michael: And we had a lot of uh, you know, I talk uh talk about Jack again or Brent.
• 1:13:21
  Michael: We had a lot of people who really helped and who really um not because they made money out of us necessarily, it was because they valued who we were as people and they supported us.
• 1:13:31
  Michael: Some of that was our own customers who really helped along the way, whether it's giving us advice or whether it is recommending other people.
• 1:13:39
  Michael: Like we couldn't have done it without some of the recommendations we've got as well.
• 1:13:43
  Michael: So yeah, I think being good people is is is another really important part of it.
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh neither of us really have it in our nature to screw people over to get to a goal anyway.
• 1:13:57
  Michael: No.
• 1:13:58
  Michael: So let's talk about the we'll get to the end of this now, uh, but it's kind of a a really interesting moment because it's it's worth mentioning that uh Hannah is now a managing director of HMDG, which is kind of strange because we sold the company.
• 1:14:12
  Michael: And so let's get let's get onto the sale because this is the thing that often people think is really sexy as well, which actually isn't at all.
• 1:14:20
  Michael: It's it's not sexy and it's not fun.
• 1:14:23
  Michael: Talk me through what your memory was of the sales process.
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Shout out to Ben, if he's watching.
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_00: We are so lucky to have found someone like Ben because this entire process was horrific.
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_00: And if it had been with anyone but him, I can't imagine what it would have been like because he's great.
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I God only knows what it would have been like.
• 1:14:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was months of arguing about silly small things.
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_00: It there were it was constant stress looking at every single detail of everything that has ever happened in the business.
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_00: It honestly is a bit of a blur, most of Yeah.
• 1:14:58
  Michael: It was 12 months of uh and it started off with just hey, let's have a chat about some stuff.
• 1:15:03
  Michael: And and I think it was it was about 12 months in the end of uh the first few months were fine, a few dinners here and there, and exploratory chats, and but then it got pretty real and pretty horrific.
• 1:15:13
  Michael: The the good thing was about Ben was that um we'd have our nightly chats, and at some points we literally just screamed at each other.
• 1:15:21
  Michael: And there was one one day I remember just being like, and the funny thing was it's like, listen, this is business.
• 1:15:28
  Michael: We're fine, like we'll still be mates.
• 1:15:30
  Michael: Of course you can chat with each other.
• 1:15:31
  Michael: But it was a I thought, particularly because we've never done it before, it was such an unknown, and it was really hard because of that, because you had to do a lot of learning.
• 1:15:40
  Michael: Yes, you had the solicitors who were charging you an arm and a leg, but there was a lot of stuff you just didn't know or didn't think of, and that was hard.
• 1:15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think also you have the solicitors, but who the hell understands anything that they're talking about?
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, it's ridiculous.
• 1:15:54
  SPEAKER_00: There was also the constant worry of, are we doing the right thing?
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Firstly.
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then secondly, um, and this again leans back to how I feel very lucky that it was Ben that um that bought the company.
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Are they gonna screw us over?
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because you don't really understand most of the legal speak.
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_00: You can analyse it and read it as much as you like, but is there a clause in there that actually means we're gonna be stuffed?
• 1:16:17
  SPEAKER_00: Is something gonna fall apart and everything that we've worked for is for nothing?
• 1:16:21
  Michael: Well, also just on that, the solicitors don't make that easy either.
• 1:16:25
  Michael: Because it's a little bit like if you've ever had a house survey done and it's got like it's an old house, it's a Victorian house, and you read the report and you're like, oh my god, it's falling over.
• 1:16:34
  Michael: That's it.
• 1:16:35
  Michael: That we what why are we buying this?
• 1:16:37
  Michael: It's got everything, it's got termites, it's got damp and the solicitors are very much like that.
• 1:16:41
  Michael: And then on top of that, you ask them to explain some stuff, you just spent another grand.
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_00: No, the the thing that I remember most was about a week before it everything was supposed to be signed and sealed, we were in Greece with the kids and the lawyer I don't even remember what it was, but the our lawyer came back with something that had me absolutely convinced that like they were absolutely screwing us over.
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like he he catastrophizes everything, which of course is his is his job.
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm like, so we're just supposed to trust that they're not gonna do this, but then they're not gonna agree to this clause, and we're not gonna agree to this clause, and we've gone through months and months and months, we're a week away, and we're not gonna agree on anything.
• 1:17:19
  SPEAKER_00: My God.
• 1:17:20
  Michael: Yeah, and we were even, I mean, we we sold in the end in September, I think by July, but but pre-July, we still weren't really sure.
• 1:17:30
  Michael: We were like, ah, it's a growing business, it's gonna be worth loads more in a year's time, and which which gave us, I think, a bit of power, actually, because we were like, well, if it doesn't happen, if it doesn't agree to something, then we just keep going.
• 1:17:42
  Michael: The further you get into it, there comes a point where it's like you've emotionally invested in the sale and and so on.
• 1:17:48
  Michael: And I think that that is that is where it gets really difficult because then even though like three weeks before you're like, Wow, if it doesn't go through, it doesn't go through, who cares?
• 1:17:56
  Michael: Once you've got to that point, it's really, really tough.
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is.
• 1:18:00
  SPEAKER_00: You've you're committed, and now you would be disappointed if it all falls through.
• 1:18:04
  Michael: Right.
• 1:18:04
  Michael: But I remember that Christrip because I spent the entire week on the phone with Ben arguing about stuff.
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's a relaxing holiday, I have to say.
• 1:18:11
  Michael: Yeah, there were a few points where it was it was, yeah.
• 1:18:15
  Michael: And then of course we had we were very lucky because we we had a great accountant again.
• 1:18:19
  Michael: So the financial due diligence was pretty simple in general.
• 1:18:24
  Michael: I think that we also we we also were very honest about everything.
• 1:18:28
  Michael: And and I we when we were in a I think it was in a beta with with Ben, and we were I was chatting to him, I was like, at any point did you have any doubts?
• 1:18:34
  Michael: And he went, Yeah, all the way through, especially at the end, because he said something like, Um, everyone was telling me you were on a bit of a grift because you were so open and honest about everything, you were like literally sending me stuff that was so irrelevant, but you were like, You should know this.
• 1:18:49
  Michael: And he was like, There's something going on here.
• 1:18:52
  Michael: Um, which was kind of funny.
• 1:18:54
  SPEAKER_00: People would say that was a terrible thing to have us have done to be so open and honest, but honestly, like he's buying the company, we're still going to be working with him.
• 1:19:02
  SPEAKER_00: How awful would that have been if we had pulled the wool over his eyes on some things and then he'd found out, and then we've still it as just not us to I mean it was embarrassing enough when they're going through the financials and all of the bluming transactions of the clothes for me.
• 1:19:17
  Michael: Well, that was funny when when we were going through with Buzzercott and and uh yeah, we're going through the bits and I'm like, and what's this?
• 1:19:23
  Michael: And I was like, I've got no idea.
• 1:19:24
  Michael: Hannah, that's a jumper.
• 1:19:26
  Michael: Okay, what about the uh uh coat?
• 1:19:28
  Michael: And it was like literally like 40 transactions of of things that Hannah had bought.
• 1:19:32
  Michael: But uh yeah, the the overall the financial duty just was fine.
• 1:19:35
  Michael: Solicitors were were um actually a bit of a problem.
• 1:19:39
  Michael: From our side it was alright, from his less so.
• 1:19:41
  Michael: I think that I would encourage people to today do as much of the initial dealings without solicitors as possible.
• 1:19:48
  Michael: Don't get into anything silly without going through a solicitor, but I think that um we probably spent about 50 grand more than we probably a hundred grand to be honest, more than we needed to on solicitors.
• 1:20:00
  Michael: But but we were worried, right?
• 1:20:01
  Michael: It's it's your company and it's a big thing and you don't know the person really who's buying it.
• 1:20:05
  Michael: And so you you are constantly worried.
• 1:20:07
  Michael: So a solicitor can pretty much drain you um by putting a few scare stories in in front of you.
• 1:20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, probably would have paid him double.
• 1:20:15
  SPEAKER_00: I was so panicky about the whole thing the whole way through.
• 1:20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Every time he threw up something else that they needed to work on for four hours, I was like, just do it.
• 1:20:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's worth it.
• 1:20:23
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think now you can at least do initial exploration without spending shed loads of money on them.
• 1:20:29
  Michael: Yeah.
• 1:20:30
  Michael: Was there any point where you were like, oh, I just don't want to sell this now?
• 1:20:34
  Michael: It it it's it's not from the first day, so let's say from sort of March, April time, but where it started getting more serious?
• 1:20:40
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of.
• 1:20:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I was always kind of going back and forth in terms of what was the right thing to do for us.
• 1:20:47
  SPEAKER_00: I also was really worried, again, if Ben had been someone different.
• 1:20:53
  SPEAKER_00: I was really worried about the team and like I I just didn't want to sell the business and them to all be stuffed and lose their jobs and everything would be awful for them as well.
• 1:21:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I I did kind of flip-flop a bit, but I think we'd always wanted to sell.
• 1:21:07
  SPEAKER_00: That was always the aim.
• 1:21:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when you get opportunity with someone who is a really good guy who gets your vision and his plans are something that you know we we were absolutely on board with, it kind of would have been silly to not take the opportunity because we that probably would never have come along again.
• 1:21:25
  Michael: Yeah, that was one of the the thoughts, wasn't it?
• 1:21:27
  Michael: It was like we knew that if we kept it for another year, it would be an extreme amount of extra money.
• 1:21:33
  Michael: We knew that after two years, because it was just rowing.
• 1:21:36
  Michael: And so one of the things was, well, that's fine, but you've got to be able to sell it in a year or in two years.
• 1:21:41
  Michael: And then beyond that, we also, I think, because of all the health stuff, yeah, I think we were like, look, it's just you can't get greedy about these things.
• 1:21:49
  Michael: And um, I remember telling you about, and you know, David, one of my old bosses who could have sold his company for 20 something million, decided to grow it more, and within two years it went bust.
• 1:22:00
  Michael: And so there was always that kind of like our skill set isn't, or at least my skill set wasn't right for continuing to grow the company.
• 1:22:07
  Michael: The health wasn't the best thing in the world ever, to put it lightly.
• 1:22:11
  Michael: And I think we needed a slightly different skill set.
• 1:22:15
  Michael: It wasn't about investment or money, it wasn't the issue, but I think we'd got to that point where we'd worked so hard, we kind of needed to um sort of get rid as well, I think.
• 1:22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I I think the health thing actually was massive.
• 1:22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, particularly for you.
• 1:22:29
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've said it to you a hundred times.
• 1:22:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, rather get rid of the company and have you alive because I was convinced you were gonna have a heart attack.
• 1:22:36
  SPEAKER_00: I've just it was awful.
• 1:22:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's not even another, it wasn't worth it.
• 1:22:41
  SPEAKER_00: It just wasn't.
• 1:22:42
  Michael: Um No, and and that was uh that was I think in July where I started showing my speech.
• 1:22:48
  Michael: That was like the we've got to sell there's no question.
• 1:22:51
  Michael: Up until that point, we were still uming and Ring, but I think at that point it was like we can't do it anymore.
• 1:22:57
  Michael: I don't think I would have survived.
• 1:22:58
  Michael: I I I this may sound a little bit dramatic, but when you're particularly when you're the face of the company, and every clinic owner has this, right?
• 1:23:05
  Michael: Everyone wants to see you, everyone wants to talk to you, and when you get to a certain size, you can't possibly do that.
• 1:23:10
  Michael: And and I try, right?
• 1:23:12
  Michael: You know, there were days where I was doing eight hours of calls every single day, and mean every single day, and then working beyond that because I did care, and that just wasn't possible to maintain.
• 1:23:22
  Michael: So we knew we needed to get out at that stage, I think.
• 1:23:26
  Michael: And it helped again having Ben, because you know, I I genuinely um not just saying this, but you know, he's a really good guy.
• 1:23:34
  Michael: Count Count as a friend now, and interestingly, you can still get pissed off with him.
• 1:23:37
  Michael: It's quite funny because I was a bit pissed off with him today, um, about something.
• 1:23:41
  Michael: But I remember when he first took over and um we had this agreement about something, and he broke it wasn't anything major, but he he sort of changed what was happening, like sort of said, wasn't quite this, but I said, You're a bit of a dickhead, that's a mistake.
• 1:23:54
  Michael: And he went, Yeah, it was.
• 1:23:55
  Michael: And it was really nice to have that kind of open relationship where you can have a little shout and uh be like, yeah, all right, fine, you know.
• 1:24:04
  Michael: Yeah, so that whole process, it was tough, and I think I don't think anyone should underestimate how difficult it is selling your your business, especially emotionally, because I mean for you, when when did you check out emotionally or have you yet?
• 1:24:17
  SPEAKER_00: I've never checked out emotionally.
• 1:24:19
  SPEAKER_00: I actually struggled a bit when we first sold.
• 1:24:22
  SPEAKER_00: If we had sold and then I wasn't working there anymore, there may have been a struggle, but it would have been a different thing.
• 1:24:27
  SPEAKER_00: But it was it was a weird transition for me.
• 1:24:31
  SPEAKER_00: Not f because of anyone, not because of anything that was happening necessarily.
• 1:24:36
  SPEAKER_00: It just I'm not really sure what it was.
• 1:24:37
  Michael: Maybe Well your for your identity was tied into HPG.
• 1:24:41
  Michael: Mine wasn't necessarily.
• 1:24:43
  Michael: And I I still remember it was a few days after the sale, and Ben had decided to do something, I can't remember what it was, wasn't it anything even major?
• 1:24:49
  Michael: And you were like, oh my god.
• 1:24:50
  Michael: And I said, I know this is like you sell your car.
• 1:24:53
  Michael: Once you've sold a car, if they want to paint it fucking pink, let them paint it pink.
• 1:24:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, but it's it it was like it was my child, and I and someone had just taken my child, but I was still watching them try and raise it.
• 1:25:02
  SPEAKER_00: That was that was exactly what it felt like.
• 1:25:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm obviously far more emotional than you in every aspect of life, and I think that yeah, it kind of ruffled my feathers a little bit for a little while.
• 1:25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um Well, let's talk about that.
• 1:25:17
  Michael: Because was was the so think back to that morning, we all sat there with about 40 different things and contracts and things to sign.
• 1:25:25
  Michael: I still remember I've got a picture of it, and you're signing all these contracts, and then we head over to Ben's to grab some champagne, waiting for solicitors, which took forever.
• 1:25:34
  Michael: Were you excited or sad on that particular day?
• 1:25:37
  Michael: Was it like exciting or was it sad or how did you feel?
• 1:25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Tired.
• 1:25:41
  SPEAKER_00: So the signing of the documents, and I can't even remember the exact timeline, but there was the signing of the documents, and then there was a period of time where the solicitor had made me panic because he'd said that whilst the money was being transferred and nothing was signed yet, or whatever, we could lose it all.
• 1:25:58
  SPEAKER_00: He'd he'd made up some story that was really classic.
• 1:26:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so I initially there was a bit of panic.
• 1:26:04
  Michael: You didn't say that.
• 1:26:05
  Michael: That's in your head.
• 1:26:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's what it came across as in my head.
• 1:26:09
  SPEAKER_00: So there was a bit of panic, there was a bit of excitement initially, and then I think it was just like a poof of so much emotion that I I honestly I just kind of want it was almost an anti-climax.
• 1:26:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think I just needed to sleep for about two weeks.
• 1:26:24
  SPEAKER_00: You smiled properly for the first time in about three years, and that actually was the best part of it for me.
• 1:26:30
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, wow, it's like the stress melted away.
• 1:26:35
  Michael: Yeah, the stress did sort of melt away a little bit.
• 1:26:38
  Michael: I think the other thing to mention is, and this is important when you're selling, is that it's not a case of you go, oh, I'm gonna sell the business, and then you sit back and you just do the selling.
• 1:26:47
  Michael: You still have to do all the work, right?
• 1:26:48
  Michael: Because you you can't let the company go backwards, what they're selling.
• 1:26:52
  Michael: So you then have two jobs.
• 1:26:53
  Michael: And if you think that you're putting a lot of effort into your one job of running the business and growing it and everything else, yeah, that's half the job.
• 1:27:01
  Michael: The rest of it is then selling.
• 1:27:02
  Michael: So you're doing both at the same time.
• 1:27:04
  Michael: So you're working doubly as hard, and you know that at any point, you know, imagine if we started going backwards because I was focused too much on selling the business.
• 1:27:11
  Michael: Well, you wouldn't have someone to buy the business anymore.
• 1:27:14
  Michael: So it was that was actually a really, really hard, hard moment uh, all those few months where you're just you're having to do both things whilst keeping it quiet from the team.
• 1:27:22
  Michael: And and one thing I do remember was uh the next day we we uh took the team to Birmingham to tell them.
• 1:27:29
  Michael: And for anyone that knows me, I've never got nervous in my life.
• 1:27:32
  Michael: Uh I walk into a room, I'm the most confident, or at least I'll appear the most confident person in the room.
• 1:27:37
  Michael: But I walked in, I was sweating, I didn't know what to say.
• 1:27:40
  Michael: I think I fluffed my words.
• 1:27:42
  Michael: I was just like, This is what it feels like to be nervous.
• 1:27:46
  Michael: I've never been nervous in my life, but I was like, Oh, this is what it feels like.
• 1:27:49
  Michael: And I think I sort of just blurted it out without thinking it through.
• 1:27:54
  Michael: And uh I remember Mark looking really shocked, and he was like, Oh my god, and I was like, Are you okay?
• 1:27:59
  Michael: And he said, So You're just leaving.
• 1:28:00
  Michael: No, no, no.
• 1:28:01
  Michael: Did I mention I'm actually staying?
• 1:28:02
  Michael: I get to do the fun stuff.
• 1:28:04
  Michael: Oh, you're like, thank God for that.
• 1:28:05
  Michael: Why didn't you say that?
• 1:28:06
  Michael: But that was that was a hard bit for me because I really felt like we were letting the team down.
• 1:28:10
  Michael: That was the emotional bit for me.
• 1:28:12
  Michael: I I felt like we'd built this amazing team and they had all this cool stuff, and we're now selling the business, and you know, we don't care about them.
• 1:28:20
  Michael: That that was a tough one.
• 1:28:21
  SPEAKER_00: I that all the way through, we were considering that.
• 1:28:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's there were so many aspects to consider.
• 1:28:27
  SPEAKER_00: But we like we love our team.
• 1:28:30
  SPEAKER_00: I never wanted them to think we were abandoning them or that they ever had anything to worry about.
• 1:28:36
  Michael: But it felt like that, or at least I felt like that's what we were doing.
• 1:28:40
  SPEAKER_00: I did as well.
• 1:28:41
  SPEAKER_00: And they were they were amazing.
• 1:28:43
  SPEAKER_00: God must have been a bit a bit of a shock.
• 1:28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but they were wonderful through the whole transition.
• 1:28:48
  Michael: So we're very let's finish with I think that one of the really interesting bits for people, which is the first sort of period after selling the business.
• 1:28:57
  Michael: And I remember it was the day before your birthday, and so that afternoon we we sold, it was about 1 p.m.
• 1:29:03
  Michael: or something, and I was ready to take you out.
• 1:29:05
  Michael: I was gonna take we took too long, so the restaurant I'd booked, we we couldn't go to and whatever.
• 1:29:10
  Michael: And I remember realizing so I uh I I bought you something as a as a birthday gift and as a congratulations.
• 1:29:16
  Michael: And I remember thinking, shit, I don't have the money because the money, if for anyone that doesn't know this, you don't sell the business and you get the money.
• 1:29:23
  Michael: You get the money like a week later, right?
• 1:29:24
  Michael: It takes a while to do all the transferring and stuff.
• 1:29:27
  Michael: So I sat there with no money because everything was all in the business and the bank account and whatever.
• 1:29:31
  Michael: So I actually messaged Ben.
• 1:29:32
  Michael: I was like, Do you mind if I use the company card until the company annex?
• 1:29:36
  Michael: Which was hilarious.
• 1:29:37
  Michael: But it took a few days for the money to land, I think.
• 1:29:40
  Michael: How did you feel when that happened?
• 1:29:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it didn't really feel very real, I think.
• 1:29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like obviously there's excitement as a spike of excitement, and then it's like, okay, everything, everything is the same.
• 1:29:51
  SPEAKER_00: It it just didn't really sink in.
• 1:29:53
  Michael: Well, also, I remember the um the the money landing in the bank account.
• 1:29:59
  Michael: I remember you looking at it and you were very confused.
• 1:30:01
  Michael: Do you remember why you were confused?
• 1:30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Too many zeros.
• 1:30:04
  Michael: Basically, you were like, Hold on, what is this dot?
• 1:30:08
  Michael: And what you you just you know?
• 1:30:11
  Michael: Exactly.
• 1:30:12
  Michael: So I remember you looking very confused.
• 1:30:14
  Michael: It didn't feel real at all.
• 1:30:16
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 1:30:17
  Michael: And did you for you, did did any sort of financial anxiety that you had disappear?
• 1:30:22
  Michael: Did you suddenly feel like this actually?
• 1:30:25
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder, like, how much money would someone have to give me to stop financial anxiety being a thing?
• 1:30:31
  SPEAKER_00: I and I don't know the answer to that, um, because no, it did it didn't stop that.
• 1:30:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's lessened a little.
• 1:30:39
  Michael: I suppose I think I suppose I'm talking about when the money landed, it didn't feel like anything.
• 1:30:45
  Michael: I mean, it didn't feel real, and it and then it did, you're like, my god, like Jesus, we look what we've achieved, and that felt very special.
• 1:30:53
  Michael: But we were doing all really well as a company anyway, so it wasn't like we couldn't afford stuff or you know, we we had money.
• 1:30:59
  Michael: So it wasn't like we had no money and suddenly it was like winning the lottery.
• 1:31:02
  Michael: Um, so I don't think we felt massively different all of a sudden.
• 1:31:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's like we had a nice life, it wasn't like we were not having a nice life before, and then you know.
• 1:31:11
  Michael: Yeah.
• 1:31:11
  Michael: I do feel though that um and I said this to you before the sale, I said, I think we're gonna feel like the richest poor people in the world, because suddenly you don't have a company where you know it's money comes in every month.
• 1:31:23
  Michael: You now have a lump of money and that's it.
• 1:31:25
  Michael: Like you go look after it.
• 1:31:27
  Michael: So it was like you you genuinely we were like hawks initially.
• 1:31:31
  SPEAKER_00: But also, and I think this is why it's always something to think about when selling your business as well, in terms of what you want for your life, but also your age, because I'm not that old.
• 1:31:41
  SPEAKER_00: You're obviously a bit older, but we have to think about my lifetime as well, and so you have to to plan for that.
• 1:31:46
  SPEAKER_00: If you're selling your business and you don't want to work again, which is not that I want to, but I'm sure lots of clinic owners the idea is to sell and retire.
• 1:31:55
  SPEAKER_00: You do have to think about how many years you're probably gonna need to fund yourself for and what your lifestyle is like and what you're going to need.
• 1:32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because also once you've paid tax on whatever it is that you've made.
• 1:32:07
  SPEAKER_00: We've got to talk about tax because that that's yeah, let's not get into that because you'll go on for about five hours.
• 1:32:13
  Michael: Oh my god, that I I I still remember that tax bill.
• 1:32:16
  Michael: Um from that.
• 1:32:19
  Michael: Did it feel weird thinking to yourself, I'm th how old were you this?
• 1:32:23
  Michael: I'm 36.
• 1:32:24
  Michael: You just turned 36.
• 1:32:26
  SPEAKER_00: I just turned 34.
• 1:32:27
  SPEAKER_00: 36 now.
• 1:32:28
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent knowledge from you there.
• 1:32:30
  Michael: So did did it feel weird to think like now look to to be clear, we're not out there able to buy private jets or anything, but at the same time, like you you you didn't need to work again, right?
• 1:32:43
  Michael: It was it was with this wasn't a case of I can buy a Ferrari every month and never never need to work.
• 1:32:48
  Michael: You you're certainly in a position where uh at 34 you never had to work again, you you'd be very, very comfortable for the rest of your life.
• 1:32:54
  Michael: Did that feel weird?
• 1:32:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's also it's difficult to believe that and to kind of believe some of that anxiety that it's hard to trust that it's not just all gonna be taken away, if that makes sense.
• 1:33:07
  SPEAKER_00: So there's always still an element of panic.
• 1:33:09
  Michael: And also it was kind of funny because it was about a week after, and you were like, Oh, I'm gonna you were like a little bit got a little bit excited, and you were like, I'm gonna go to the four seasons, I'm gonna go to a spa, and uh I'm gonna I ask my mates, and they're all like, Hannah, it's Thursday, we're all working.
• 1:33:26
  Michael: And so it was kind of it was kind of funny in that sense for you because it wasn't like I remember you saying, I should just maybe meet some influencers on Instagram or on TikTok who don't have to work, so I can do some fun stuff.
• 1:33:38
  SPEAKER_00: To be clear, instead of doing that, I just decided to continue working.
• 1:33:41
  Michael: So Yeah, and that was that was the other thing.
• 1:33:44
  Michael: We we never at any point um thought that would be the end of it because the the almost the agreement was that we wanted to do the fun stuff, the good stuff, the stuff that we were really good at.
• 1:33:54
  Michael: So, unlike I think for a lot of people who sell the business, it's like, right, I'm gonna work for because you're always gonna be tied in for a year.
• 1:34:00
  Michael: I think ours is a year, proper tie-in or something, and we're well past that.
• 1:34:04
  Michael: And there's never been any kind of like, oh, that's the date that we're gonna leave, because we enjoy what we're doing, right?
• 1:34:09
  Michael: So it wasn't like we're gonna sell the business and then we're gonna just suddenly leave as soon as we can.
• 1:34:13
  Michael: It was we'll sell the business, but now we do things we really enjoy doing.
• 1:34:17
  Michael: Now, that doesn't always work out like that because the handover is maybe takes longer than you think it's gonna take.
• 1:34:23
  Michael: And and and yeah, it's it's one of those things.
• 1:34:26
  Michael: But and then of course, was it a year later you then became managing director of the business?
• 1:34:30
  Michael: Yeah, it was a year, literally a year to the day after selling, where you then became managing director and you started running stuff basically.
• 1:34:37
  SPEAKER_00: Which all sounds very important, but I think I was doing it as it's I I imagine for some people that sounds crazy.
• 1:34:44
  Michael: Like there you are, you you're you're 35 and you sold your business, and now you go back in to be managing director of a business you sold.
• 1:34:53
  Michael: I mean, I understand it and I understand why, because you love it and you you really enjoy it, and I love what I do, but it's still kind of mental.
• 1:34:59
  Michael: It's kind of crazy.
• 1:35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know, I think that sometimes.
• 1:35:02
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I mean it doesn't actually seem that mental to me.
• 1:35:05
  SPEAKER_00: I it feels I've always been working in it.
• 1:35:08
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like I removed myself from that.
• 1:35:10
  SPEAKER_00: It was more that we decided going forward that I would continue to do that and take on some other things that I hadn't already been been doing.
• 1:35:19
  SPEAKER_00: So to me, it just feels normal.
• 1:35:22
  SPEAKER_00: And a title like that is neither here nor there to me.
• 1:35:24
  Michael: It's we don't we don't do titles.
• 1:35:28
  SPEAKER_00: Also, it kind of gives me a bit of imposter syndrome if we talk about that side of things too much.
• 1:35:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, it's just I w make for the business like that's simply it.
• 1:35:37
  Michael: I think I I have a I'm allergic to job titles of fucking um we always had a policy of you can have whatever job title you want, it means nothing.
• 1:35:46
  Michael: Um everyone's here to work hard.
• 1:35:48
  Michael: And I remember John.
• 1:35:50
  Michael: Do you remember there was one occasion where a couple of members of the scene were having an argument about who was more senior or something?
• 1:35:56
  Michael: I was like, guys, just and got the whole company together, I was like, guys, I am up here and everybody else is down there.
• 1:36:02
  Michael: Don't forget that.
• 1:36:03
  Michael: Don't we do not do this nonsense of like I'm more important than you are, you're all important, um, and none of you are as important as me, so get on with your fucking work.
• 1:36:11
  Michael: There's the old dinosaur in me coming out.
• 1:36:13
  SPEAKER_00: And this is why he's no longer running the team.
• 1:36:16
  Michael: Yeah.
• 1:36:16
  Michael: Um, so uh to finish off, because this has been a slightly longer one, but I think hopefully interesting, whether it's for our clients or for other people, because I think it it takes you through a bit of a journey of what it's like running a business.
• 1:36:29
  Michael: I do you know what I missed?
• 1:36:30
  Michael: Just very quickly, there's there's I I wanted to quickly focus on being a female um owner in in the industry because one of the things, well, let me ask you did you ever feel like people underestimated you or saw you as as inferior to me, for example, or that you weren't respected by people, whether that's internally or externally?
• 1:36:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, obviously not by everyone, but I think that was a combination of things.
• 1:37:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I think being female is definitely one, being younger, particularly in comparison to you, and also in comparison to some of our clients as well.
• 1:37:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's very easy to assume that you are less experienced or you are have less authority and things like that.
• 1:37:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that is definitely the case.
• 1:37:24
  Michael: On that, on that, I just want to make a few points because it's one of the things that pissed me off most.
• 1:37:28
  Michael: I remember one we were at a conference and there was someone, and I was busy because again, I do the talking, and there was someone that was running after me to try and talk to me, and you said something along the lines of, oh, I can help.
• 1:37:41
  Michael: And he was like, basically, it was fuck off, I don't care about talking to you, I want to talk to the main person.
• 1:37:47
  Michael: And I was like, and I think I put in my my newsletter, I was like, the H is in HMDG for a reason, like it's not some random letter, like, and it pissed me off a lot.
• 1:37:56
  Michael: And we we I saw it a lot where people I remember once uh, and he this particular client was somewhat joking, but it was like Hannah's Michael's minion, which I know really.
• 1:38:06
  SPEAKER_00: That one did piss me off.
• 1:38:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I I think it's understand ignoring the female age thing, personality-wise, I initially at least I come across much softer.
• 1:38:17
  SPEAKER_00: You are a very authoritative person.
• 1:38:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just you, there are other people who are also like that.
• 1:38:21
  SPEAKER_00: Mark, who um most of you guys will know, super authoritative.
• 1:38:25
  SPEAKER_00: He's the same age as me.
• 1:38:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's not an age thing, if that's just a personality thing.
• 1:38:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's very easy initially to if you and I said exactly the same thing, you would sound more authoritative.
• 1:38:37
  SPEAKER_00: So people would assume that you were the leader of that situation.
• 1:38:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I get it from that perspective, and that's that's fine.
• 1:38:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think the ones that irritate me or have irritated me, and it has happened on a number of occasions, is when it's nothing to do with with that.
• 1:38:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's everything to do with being, I mean, I can't really call myself younger now, but throughout the years, I definitely have been younger and female.
• 1:39:02
  SPEAKER_00: And there have been several occasions where it's been very clear that that is why they are attempting to speak to me in a way that is they would never dream of talking to you like that.
• 1:39:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not just me, by the way, several members of our team have also experienced a couple of things throughout the years.
• 1:39:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't happen very often, but it does happen.
• 1:39:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's um I don't think anyone should ever underestimate people because of their age or because of their gender or because of their personality and style of of talking.
• 1:39:32
  SPEAKER_00: We've got um amazing member of staff, Georgina.
• 1:39:35
  SPEAKER_00: Shout out if you're listening, who is a much more reserved and softer person, but my god, she has an insane brain.
• 1:39:43
  SPEAKER_00: She is amazing at what she does.
• 1:39:45
  SPEAKER_00: Don't you ever underestimate her for a second.
• 1:39:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like it does what annoys me more than anything.
• 1:39:51
  Michael: We've had that, not just with you.
• 1:39:52
  Michael: I remember one client said, Oh, I don't want to talk to the silly little girl, I want to speak to the main man.
• 1:39:56
  Michael: And I was like, You can speak to me, but it's the last person you'll ever be speaking to.
• 1:40:03
  Michael: It's just insane sometimes the misogyny that I've seen.
• 1:40:06
  Michael: It's it and it it it doesn't piss it piss me off more that it's you, it's it's for any of the girls in the team.
• 1:40:11
  Michael: Because we we I don't even know what the what the proportion is now, but we were like 80% women one stage, it's probably about the same now.
• 1:40:18
  Michael: And um and it it it pisses me off and it it pissed me off certainly as uh it does piss me off a bit more with you because you are the co-founder of business, you know, the manager director.
• 1:40:29
  Michael: Um and whether it's an internal thing or whether external, when people underestimate you, they don't it's it's difficult because they don't see we don't see what happens behind the scenes.
• 1:40:39
  Michael: They don't see the discussions that we have about things, less so now, but certainly like how involved you were in every decision that we made.
• 1:40:47
  Michael: There were there's very I can't think of many where I'm like, right, this is what we're doing.
• 1:40:52
  Michael: I would always run it by you.
• 1:40:54
  Michael: I may have come up with the ideation of the idea, but um because that's what I'm good at as well.
• 1:40:59
  Michael: But I think that there's a lot of, particularly in this industry, a lot of people who underestimate women, which is strange.
• 1:41:05
  Michael: There's a lot of misogyny as well, which is strange given it's such a female dominated um profession.
• 1:41:11
  Michael: Uh it it it's it's surprising to me.
• 1:41:15
  Michael: I suppose it happens in every industry.
• 1:41:17
  Michael: Um, but it's kind of crazy where, you know, here you are, uh, an exited founder of a business of a of a uh a you know a pretty special company that made an awful lot of money, and people still to this day kind of go, well, you know, just nano.
• 1:41:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know what's funny though, and I do think this possi I as much as I think people can sometimes go a bit too far into gender and blaming it for certain things, but I do think gender is key in this.
• 1:41:47
  SPEAKER_00: I've even had friends of mine talk about Michael's business and how I'm working in Michael's business.
• 1:41:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, what on earth is going on here?
• 1:41:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that there is definitely something, the man who has the girlfriend who he allows to work in his business kind of thing.
• 1:42:04
  SPEAKER_00: And there's definitely a kind of stereotype there.
• 1:42:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I suppose because I am less visible to some people, probably I I can see why it comes across like that.
• 1:42:16
  Michael: Well, whether it's, I mean, from an internal perspective, you're less openly shouty.
• 1:42:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's yeah.
• 1:42:21
  Michael: I I don't think people understand quite how vicious, and I'll use that word, how vicious you can be.
• 1:42:26
  Michael: No, it's true.
• 1:42:27
  Michael: I think that um I think that from an external perspective, you know, I'm I'm very comfortable shooting my mouth off and and talking publicly, you're you're certainly not.
• 1:42:37
  Michael: But but I don't think any of that is an excuse because I don't think that that should have anything to do with it.
• 1:42:42
  Michael: I think that if it was a man in the same position, if if you were the man and let's say we were both men and and and you would be treated very differently as an exited founder of a business, of a business like ours with the money that you made.
• 1:42:55
  Michael: And um and I think you would just ooze respect.
• 1:42:58
  Michael: That's yeah, it's it's it's super interesting that that that in today's age that you still have that.
• 1:43:03
  Michael: And we've had it situations over the years actually where you had sexual innuendos friendly.
• 1:43:10
  Michael: Like you've had people getting like I I'm not gonna go into it, but my goal, like some of the stuff that's happened to you, uh some of the times where customers said it would even say to you, Oh, I need to speak to Michael about this.
• 1:43:21
  Michael: It's like, you absolutely don't.
• 1:43:23
  Michael: I like this not my area, this is Hannah's area.
• 1:43:26
  Michael: It was it's very interesting.
• 1:43:28
  Michael: I we and recently we're some stuff, we we've been doing some stuff, and um one of the concerns was you know, we don't want Michael to sort of undermine Hannah.
• 1:43:38
  Michael: And to me, internally in between us, it's like, what?
• 1:43:41
  SPEAKER_00: That would never happen because like it's also very funny that they would would never be like, oh, I don't want Hannah to undermine Michael.
• 1:43:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's like do they realise that I we speak about everything?
• 1:43:54
  SPEAKER_00: So everything that you say, I am aware of and we've discussed in great detail, probably for days.
• 1:43:59
  Michael: Well, we I mean from using the word cockwomble, for example, which uh said it now.
• 1:44:04
  Michael: I've said it now.
• 1:44:07
  Michael: So I think that's been uh a really interesting part of the journey where you were underestimated.
• 1:44:12
  Michael: I don't think people really understood how important you were, and that that has been frustrating at times, certainly for you as well as.
• 1:44:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it has.
• 1:44:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's probably a little bit of ego in there that gets a little bit dented at times, possibly, and particularly when you put in so much into something, but there we go.
• 1:44:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's the way the way it is.
• 1:44:32
  SPEAKER_00: Live to fight another day.
• 1:44:33
  Michael: So, final questions, and I've got these from ChatGPT.
• 1:44:37
  Michael: So, what's the most stupid thing you spent money on after you sold the company?
• 1:44:42
  SPEAKER_00: Spent money on stupid stuff all the time.
• 1:44:44
  Michael: I I know the answer, because although you didn't spend it, I suppose I spent it.
• 1:44:48
  SPEAKER_00: My handbag.
• 1:44:49
  SPEAKER_00: That that was your fault.
• 1:44:54
  Michael: It was that I I didn't even know what one was, but that was where I had to go to Ben and say, Can I borrow the Amex?
• 1:45:00
  Michael: But it was a Birkin, so that I think that was the most stupid thing.
• 1:45:04
  Michael: But you know, the next one was uh do you feel more capable now that you've sold the company, or does it matter at all?
• 1:45:13
  Michael: Is is the selling of the company part of your identity?
• 1:45:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, that that that's interesting.
• 1:45:18
  SPEAKER_00: No, that hasn't made me feel more capable in any like that hasn't affected that at all, interestingly.
• 1:45:23
  SPEAKER_00: I've never thought about that, but no.
• 1:45:25
  Michael: Are you still I know the answer, are you still emotionally attached to the business?
• 1:45:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, definitely.
• 1:45:32
  Michael: Um what's the hardest thing about working and this reclinic only who sells the sells the business will will get?
• 1:45:38
  Michael: But what's it like working inside something that you used to own?
• 1:45:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's a bit different now because I'm running it internally, but I think the was hard to relinquish control, and that was an interesting for me to navigate personally.
• 1:45:54
  SPEAKER_00: But now, because of the role that I'm playing, it feels pretty normal.
• 1:45:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't it's not too different.
• 1:46:03
  Michael: I think also because it's Ben, you kind of still have the control, right?
• 1:46:08
  Michael: It's it's slightly different.
• 1:46:10
  Michael: You can't just go and do stuff and spend money on the car.
• 1:46:12
  Michael: Well, you can, just not lots and lots of money.
• 1:46:15
  SPEAKER_00: Also, I think what we've been so, so lucky with is that I can't really remember the time without Ben now.
• 1:46:23
  SPEAKER_00: He kind of has slotted into the leadership team really well.
• 1:46:27
  SPEAKER_00: We have similar views on things, and there haven't been many occasions where we've been so vastly different in opinions on certain things.
• 1:46:36
  Michael: I disagree.
• 1:46:37
  Michael: I disagree.
• 1:46:38
  Michael: I think that we have been, and and maybe it was just one of us that had it, and not just me, that you, but I think it's the personality match that's really important.
• 1:46:48
  Michael: Because I can say, uh, I think that's a bit stupid, or you can say no, but at no point does it feel like we have to worry about the other person's feelings, or that he has to that that he's gonna get angry because I've said that this is dumb.
• 1:47:04
  Michael: And you know, there's been I'm sure, although I don't even know because no one gives a shit.
• 1:47:10
  Michael: I'm sure there have been occasions where it's gone, Michael and Hannah is such awful.
• 1:47:14
  Michael: I'm actually I don't know if he has done that, but but it wouldn't surprise me.
• 1:47:17
  Michael: But it's one of those things where it's like five minutes later, it's like, okay, move on.
• 1:47:21
  Michael: That's just the way it is.
• 1:47:22
  SPEAKER_00: What I have also, and this probably would affect you less, but I have always appreciated is that he's always I've always felt from him that he has always appreciated what we built, and that he's always um our feedback and our input and everything.
• 1:47:37
  SPEAKER_00: I I've never at any point, I mean, we've there's there's always been things that he's probably been annoyed with us about and we've been annoyed with him about, but nothing of any significance because I've always felt he's really made the effort to I'll tell you what, it's and this is going back to Clint Coenis who who sell, whether you have to stay for a year or three years or whether you just want to stay.
• 1:47:58
  Michael: I think the key thing is having someone by the business who isn't just gonna come in and go, right, I'm tearing it all apart and starting again.
• 1:48:05
  Michael: It's someone who understands and appreciates that um that yes, there are holes, no question, but those holes are not central to the to the identity and DNA of the business.
• 1:48:16
  Michael: It's like, okay, what you guys built here was amazing.
• 1:48:19
  Michael: This bit we need to fix, this bit we need to fix, and this bit we need to fix.
• 1:48:22
  Michael: But it's not like, right, you're gonna we're gonna stop marketing to MSK clinics and we're gonna now target lawyers.
• 1:48:29
  Michael: You know, at no point, it's too intelligent to go, let's just change the whole thing around.
• 1:48:33
  Michael: And I've seen that with clinic sales a lot, where companies come in and they're like, right, let's just wipe out the entire history of the business and let's just everything that actually made it so good and start again.
• 1:48:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that would have been terrible.
• 1:48:45
  Michael: And actually, I think that's one of the failings of some of the big um clinic chains.
• 1:48:50
  Michael: Um, so for me, a a great example.
• 1:48:53
  Michael: I I I won't name anyone, but when you are a and I'm not necessarily speaking, but I'm this just as an example, when you're six physio and you buy barking physio, the fact that you slap your brand on and change everything about that business, I'm not sure necessarily that is the best way of doing things.
• 1:49:12
  Michael: And and we know a number of people, and one we work with, they're not the only one, but a good example is um Conneco, who come in, they see the business and they go, shit, this is great.
• 1:49:22
  Michael: Let's leave everything as it is, you guys continue running it, but we can fill the gaps with the knowledge that we have.
• 1:49:28
  Michael: And I think crucial when you're selling your business is finding someone who is willing to or who understands that filling the gaps is their job, not re redoing the entire business.
• 1:49:38
  Michael: And you see it in the corporate world all the time where someone buys something and goes, Oh, well, we're gonna change everything, we're gonna change the clothes lines, we're gonna change this or whatever.
• 1:49:46
  Michael: And it's like it fails every single time.
• 1:49:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it loses what makes the business special.
• 1:49:50
  Michael: Last question Are you happier?
• 1:49:53
  Michael: I'm not talking personally, because now you've got a big fucking engagement ring on, but are you happier today?
• 1:50:00
  Michael: Having sold the business than when you were scrapping and hustling in the early days.
• 1:50:05
  Michael: You are.
• 1:50:05
  Michael: Why?
• 1:50:06
  SPEAKER_00: In the early days.
• 1:50:07
  Michael: Then in the early days.
• 1:50:08
  SPEAKER_00: I said yes but quickly, then how early?
• 1:50:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I yes is the answer.
• 1:50:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:50:13
  SPEAKER_00: It was fun in the early days.
• 1:50:15
  SPEAKER_00: In some ways it was less stressful, even though there were so many stresses, in some ways it was less stressful.
• 1:50:20
  SPEAKER_00: It was fun, it was exciting.
• 1:50:21
  SPEAKER_00: We were building something.
• 1:50:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I think there's definitely something to be said for being proud of having built something and also having a little bit of stress taken off because okay, we have done that.
• 1:50:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're we're okay.
• 1:50:37
  SPEAKER_00: We can eat next week as well.
• 1:50:41
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think definitely happier now.
• 1:50:44
  Michael: For me, 49 or 49 in three days, yes.
• 1:50:48
  Michael: Um, but if I was 40 or 35, I would be happier back in the early days of scrapping and hustling.
• 1:50:55
  SPEAKER_00: You are a scrapper and a hustler, that's your thing for sure.
• 1:50:58
  SPEAKER_00: Building things.
• 1:51:00
  Michael: But not today.
• 1:51:01
  Michael: I would not be doing that today.
• 1:51:03
  SPEAKER_00: Tired of.
• 1:51:04
  Michael: Not a chance.
• 1:51:05
  Michael: I am I've been there and done that.
• 1:51:07
  Michael: Never again.
• 1:51:08
  Michael: All right, listen now.
• 1:51:09
  Michael: I I I really enjoyed that.
• 1:51:10
  Michael: It was been long overdue getting you on the podcast.
• 1:51:13
  SPEAKER_00: I've been avoided for months.
• 1:51:15
  Michael: I know, you hate it, but I think it's no, it's really good.
• 1:51:18
  Michael: Uh hopefully everyone enjoyed that and uh get a bit of inside perspective of um a couple who have built a business together, sold a business together, and something within the healthcare industry, and then the experiences of that entire process start to finish.
• 1:51:31
  Michael: We could have talked for about five hours, um only gone through about 10% of what we wanted to talk about.
• 1:51:35
  Michael: But uh yeah, that was fun.
• 1:51:36
  Michael: Alrighty.
• 1:51:37
  Michael: Cheers, Ale.
• 1:51:37
  Michael: Bye.