Latest / Raising the Bar with RebuttalPR / The Plaintiff Lawyer’s Guide to Being Found in the Age of AI

Transcript

The Plaintiff Lawyer’s Guide to Being Found in the Age of AI · Raising the Bar with RebuttalPR

• 0:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to Raising the Bar with Rebuttal PR.
• 0:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: The podcast will be elevate the stories of the pain of spar and dive into the key trends, shaping the civil justice system today.
• 0:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host, Ray D. Lorenzi, and in each episode, we'll bring you insightful interviews with leading attorneys, expert perspectives on current legal events, and in-depth discussions on the issues that matter most.
• 0:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now let's jump in.
• 0:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just this interesting and it's a distinction I think people are missing is that the AI is training on your website, but just because it's training on your website doesn't mean it's returning it in a result.
• 0:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: The one resource that a law firm controls to market themselves.
• 0:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Their website is something that is no longer being returned to an individual who is potentially searching for them.
• 0:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that is a brand new world.
• 0:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hello, and welcome to Raising the Bar with Roberto PR, a special guest edition here today with myself, Jillian D. Simone hosting, and joined by Ray D. Lorenzi, founder and CEO of Roberto PR.
• 0:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, Ray.
• 1:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how I feel about this Jillian.
• 1:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: You've taken my hosting chair, but I'm so glad to be here and this is going to be fun.
• 1:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're happy to have you, you know, you're welcome and to if a good New York.
• 1:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we're here today to talk about an SEO report that, you know, I know means a lot to you.
• 1:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I think before we get too much into that, we should just start out with like, what is SEO?
• 1:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what is the history here?
• 1:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: I know there's been like a long love affair with a lot of folks in SEO and, you know, sort of everything it entails, but like, why, where did that start?
• 1:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sure.
• 1:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: And Jillian, I think, you know, calling it an SEO report really is in some ways it's I think it's it's reverse from how I conceptualized it, which is more about AI and there is so much discussion about AI in the legal field, to a nauseating degree.
• 2:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of it is about how law firms are trying to streamline or become more efficient using AI.
• 2:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think my interest was how lawyers and law firms are trying to be viewed or seen by AI engines, but also many sort of long time SEO vendors.
• 2:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: have are seeing the writing on the wall and they're pivoting to saying oh we can get you into AI search results and to be blunt my bullshit detector has been going off on this that I really wanted to dig into the research.
• 2:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: see what the facts on the ground were and put together a resource for lawyers who are trying to grow and market their practice in a genuine way and prevent them from getting sold down the river by SEO vendors who are promising things that they cannot deliver.
• 3:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that was really the Genesis of it.
• 3:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, answer, I think what your actual question was, there have been SEO vendors for decade, two decades that have worked with the plaintiff's bar, amongst other industries, but we're obviously talking about the plaintiff's bar here, to help increase their ranking in Google.
• 3:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't will talk about this later, but,
• 3:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: essentially with Google and people using that tool and finding 10 blue links and then clicking on one to then go to website.
• 3:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Those days aren't over but they are certainly on the decline and it's something that every lawyer needs to be aware of.
• 3:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay and when you're talking about the 10 blue links, you mean like someone Google's a firm and then they get a page in front of
• 3:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: 10 for.
• 3:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, exactly.
• 3:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, 10 blue links used to be like the short hand for that.
• 3:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's put aside the fact that now you have four, four ads of top, someone the side, someone the bottom, but a paragraph.
• 4:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, putting that aside.
• 4:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, Google search, 10 blue links, you know, those things what, you know, was how one would be associated with the other.
• 4:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so you went right to some of the AI stuff, so I do want to clarify early on what about GEO what what is that and what is the difference because you're sort of talking about SEO firms wanting to get it a bit on the AI but like what is the differentiation there and what it terms mean.
• 4:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: So SEO was search engine optimization.
• 4:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now you're hearing A, E, O, or G, E, O.
• 4:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like essentially, in short, optimizing for the AI search bots and engines.
• 4:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: So like G, E, O is like, generator, generative, engine optimization.
• 4:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: It all is AI related.
• 4:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, just a really boil at them.
• 4:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: If some were to search,
• 4:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: chat GPT or Claude or Gemini or Grog or pick your, you know, AI of choice and are looking for a lawyer, you know, how can.
• 5:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: all X law firm come up in those results.
• 5:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you have SEO vendors, again, who are seeing, oh, Google's declining, how do we pivot and now are for claim that they can get in these desentions?
• 5:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's just so much smoke and mirrors there that what we really wanted to do was shine a light on what the real situation is, what the data is and empower lawyers to make decisions accordingly.
• 5:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
• 5:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: So just to stay and kind of like what it used to be before we get to for a long of like what it looks like now, what did SEO like mean early on like what all had to happen for a firm to be making sure that it was like making the most of their you know SEO process or engagement.
• 5:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 5:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
• 5:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: SEO had its heyday more like, you know, let's say 10 years ago.
• 5:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I think some would probably debate me on that, and that's completely fine.
• 5:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: But there are a few things that play that were, in fact, important.
• 5:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: First is you needed a website that conform to certain web standards, and I'm really boiling this down, so that
• 6:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Google, and Google, let there's obviously other search engines, but we're really talking about Google in terms of market share.
• 6:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: How can that search engine crawl your website and take that data?
• 6:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then make sure you can appear in rankings in the first place.
• 6:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: And how are you generating content that
• 6:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: was responsive to the queries that people were putting into Google so that your website could appear.
• 6:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: There were a host of tactics back in the day that SEO vendors would use with law firms to sort of gain the search engine.
• 6:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And honestly, they worked.
• 6:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, for example, that they would, you know, create dozens and dozens of hundreds of pages on their website, answering the same question, but with small derivations.
• 6:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: They would make these sort of lists that Google, at a certain point, would favor and it would help you in rankings.
• 7:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: firms with SEO vendors must do what was called keyword stuffing.
• 7:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: They would like jam all these terms and pages that again would help with rankings.
• 7:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: So a couple years ago Google undertook a process that really changed how their algorithm worked and it devalued.
• 7:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: companies that used a lot of those tactics.
• 7:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: So if you used those tactics, let's say you were number one in Google, those tactics would make you feel pain, and it would bring you off the first page.
• 7:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we're in those.
• 7:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: That was intentional.
• 7:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Google did that on purpose?
• 7:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, because they failed appropriately that
• 7:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: people weren't answering the queries that consumers actually had.
• 7:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Companies were just trying to game the system.
• 7:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Understanding that if they were in the top couple links that they were going to get all the business.
• 7:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because even if you're in the, if you're like 70, 90 in Google, you're going to be pretty much nowhere.
• 7:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're on the second page, you're, you're at ghost.
• 8:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah.
• 8:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: So SEO, you know, what all these algorithm changes, and there were sort of seminal events in which Google did that, then Google actually changed and said, you know, we're not going to roll these out.
• 8:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: The room just keeps you rolling these out all the time because Google's view, which was right in many ways, was we're here to answer people's questions and we're not going to reward companies or law firms or we know whatever the industry
• 8:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: But by a large today, as you should be about making sure you have a functioning website that answers the information that people would have, it's hey, they though, was in the past in my view.
• 8:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, I know there can be disagreements on that, but you know, and now obviously with the advent of AI, you can really say that the, the, that, the, the, the, the, the, the hey days in the past.
• 8:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's a good way of like, why what has changed, how do people seek out
• 8:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, how people are searching for information is undergoing the most drastic change since Google was invented.
• 9:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you're seeing, you know, year over year 15 percentage point drops in people using Google to find the lawyer or people using Google to find anything.
• 9:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, how are people doing it?
• 9:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: One is they're using a chatbot.
• 9:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: So let's say chat should be T or Claude.
• 9:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they're not asking like they wouldn't Google, like oftentimes Google people would say like car accident lawyer and you and they.
• 9:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: No one types that into a chatbot.
• 9:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: They'll say, you know, I got in a car accident on this highway and you know, here's my injury and then who is a lawyer in my area who can help me with this particular situation?
• 9:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's how people now talk to those chatbot.
• 9:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Another thing happening is, even if people are using Google, Google is, you know, Gemini is their AI product.
• 9:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're putting those results right there on top.
• 10:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: And...
• 10:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: essentially capturing people before they even get to the to the template links.
• 10:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you have these changes all happening at the same time and that's impacting website traffic.
• 10:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: People are like never getting to someone's website when they're getting to answer ahead of that.
• 10:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 10:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, so you talked about like individuals finding attorneys.
• 10:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: What does this mean for referring attorneys, you know, maybe sometimes there are existing relationships there, but if there isn't, does that change or is it typically kind of the same of like, you know, asking the chat about the question.
• 10:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, behavior amongst anyone using the internet to find information is changing and whether that is an injure consumer or a foreign lawyer who may have a case in a practice area they never touch and they're trying to find someone.
• 10:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they are.
• 10:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not across the board.
• 10:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: People have you know different behaviors and it's not like Google search is like, you know, like on the
• 11:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: If someone's looking for information, they are increasingly doing it through an AI chat bot or Google is presenting them with AI information before they're even getting to actual web page results.
• 11:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 11:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then you touched on this a little, but I think there's probably more there.
• 11:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what is the robot doing and thinking?
• 11:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, it gets past this point.
• 11:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 11:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, like, what do folks need to be thinking about in terms of like feeding those robots or like the AEO or GEO?
• 11:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what is the shift now?
• 11:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and this really gets into why SEO is becoming so much less relevant, because we looked at the research of how AI is returning results to individuals who are searching.
• 11:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And a few
• 12:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: So for some vendor to proclaim that they can get you in this black box, which we do not know how the black box is trained is
• 12:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: indeed ridiculous.
• 12:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: However, there has been a bunch of research done to determine what they are training on and how they are delivering results.
• 12:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Those are two different things.
• 12:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is a parent that AI models are training on law firm websites and using all that data to inform their knowledge.
• 12:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: However, when a consumer is searching for something and getting an answer, that answer by and large never includes a law firm website.
• 12:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the one
• 12:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: resource that a law firm controls to market themselves.
• 12:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Their website is something that is no longer being returned to an individual who is potentially searching for them.
• 12:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that is a brand new world.
• 13:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: You can look across multiple AI systems.
• 13:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And what these AI tools are returning to individuals who are asking questions are third party validation.
• 13:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is returning, for example, rankings.
• 13:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, there's several out there like chambers or super lawyers or best lawyers.
• 13:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Those are come up frequently.
• 13:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: News sites are coming up very frequently.
• 13:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Anytime another person or entity is speaking about you, that gets returned at a much greater frequency than anything you pay or control.
• 13:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And think of it as let's say you were running, you know, build board ads or TV ads or radio ads.
• 13:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: AI is not going to return that into results.
• 13:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Your website is just the same.
• 13:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's likely training on that data, but it's not returning it to an individual using that chatbot.
• 14:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: So essentially optimizing your website while I would never say is not important.
• 14:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is not what's getting returned to someone who's searching for you.
• 14:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: it's returning things that you have to go earn.
• 14:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing's you can go pay for.
• 14:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 14:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 14:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: So an entity that is not yourself.
• 14:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: It knows an ad.
• 14:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: It can recognize an ad.
• 14:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and it treats your website as an ad, essentially, and again, it's just this interesting and it's a distinction I think people are missing is that the AI is training on your website, but just because it's training on your website doesn't mean it's returning it in a result.
• 14:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's informing what it's knowledge, but it's not influencing what the outcome of someone searches.
• 14:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and look, this is where if someone really would take a look at the support and be like, you know, these rebel PR folks are just completely self-serving.
• 14:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And look, Phil wants to make that argument, you know, I have to have the debate.
• 14:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: It just so happens that like what we have done at rebel PR for years, well, before AI was invented, was
• 15:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: really was working with law firms who wanted to reach their audience in a different way through a more authentic, you know, means not through, you know, again, there's something wrong with advertising, it's a different business model.
• 15:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: What we do is we help elevate the profiles of law firms and their attorneys through getting them in the news.
• 15:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: working with them on being seen more in their community, doing thought leadership work, like, you know, op-eds in awards and speaking appearances, it just so happens those are the things that AI values tremendously, which again, sound self-serving coming for me, but it happens to be the way of the world and it has happened to work out that way.
• 15:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, the law firms we work with when, you know, getting them in the news more, talking about their cases, their practice areas, the issues they care about, they are more naturally being seen at much greater levels in AI than other law firms.
• 16:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I want to be clear, we would never guarantee that, oh, we can get you in this AI search result.
• 16:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: You have to be everywhere.
• 16:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is in all the above strategy.
• 16:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: SEO I think for a while used to be almost a silver bullet and you could do that and then you would be seen in search results.
• 16:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: With everything's pushing towards AI that is simply not the case.
• 16:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like your website is unimportant but all this SEO tricks is just no longer relevant in the world in which we
• 16:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: and understanding what AI cares about, which, again, is third-party relevancy.
• 16:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Things you cannot purchase, things you cannot replicate.
• 16:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Those are what's valued now, and we're law firms really need to turn their attention.
• 16:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think something I was listening to said, like PR and our media is having a come back or something, which, like you said, may sound self-serving, but like I have heard it in other places, I think it's fair.
• 17:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and what we've seen, and I want to also disabuse lawyers a law firms from doing, that does not mean, oh, I just need to put a press release out, like, you know, every week.
• 17:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: That is not going to help you.
• 17:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a bunch of newswire distribution services people may have heard of PR newswire, businesswire, and even they are sort of trying to position themselves, oh, work with us, like, you know, like, put your pay to put your press release out.
• 17:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll get you an AI.
• 17:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: that is also seen by AI as paid because it is.
• 17:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's what we are talking about here is using your story and your expertise to actually get into the news, get interviewed by let's say your local TV station quoted in online news outlet.
• 17:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, it really spans the gamut depending on what practice area you're in and like we work with law firms all the time and you know, maybe all they care about is being in their local paper and then we work with some, you know, law firms and we work to get them in more national outlets, whether it's, you know, let's say like a New York Times or NBC News.
• 18:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: it really depends on what is important to that law firm and getting them in front of their audience.
• 18:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's clear being authentic and having a reputation that is supported by third party validation is what is driving the AI search results right now.
• 18:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 18:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, so, you know, some folks may say, like SEO is not completely dead yet, so, right?
• 18:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: So like, what should firms still be doing in terms of that work?
• 18:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: money and time for them to still be spending on that piece and your.
• 18:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 18:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you need a website.
• 18:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
• 18:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the website needs to have information that a potential client, someone that you feel like you could serve, your website is information, but answer their questions.
• 19:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
• 19:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Every law firm is different in what that needs to look like.
• 19:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: writing the content for a website, you know, something we do, you know, very regularly, I would never say is unimportant.
• 19:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's certainly is important because let's say even, you know, you're talking about someone who may be dealing with the most catastrophic thing in their life.
• 19:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: They need to trust someone.
• 19:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: And,
• 19:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Not all time, let's say they get, you know, an AI result for law for mex.
• 19:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: They may then go check out law for mex and review their website, and they need to feel like that they connect with that law firm.
• 19:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the website is very important from that perspective, but there are like a couple free tools, you know, and we outline this in our report, Google Search Console and Google Analytics, that really tell you how you're ranking and how your website is performing,
• 19:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: You, and we've done this before, you can hook these up with Claude, or chat GPT, or another, and we just happen to use Claude, so I'm plugging them specifically.
• 20:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: But we have done that and say, hey, analyze this website and how it's performing and ways you can optimize the site.
• 20:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: and it comes back with extremely useful information that a law firm can then act upon without having any outside vendor whatsoever.
• 20:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, let me be clear, I would use it for that council, but then you need to execute on it.
• 20:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, while AI could maybe make some tweaks to the website infrastructure, I would never have AI right content for your website.
• 20:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that is a
• 20:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: But in terms of analyzing your website, the talent's performing and change that can be made to help increase its performance, AI is very useful in that regard.
• 20:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, some law firms may have someone very, you know, that's more of the tech savvy and that can do that in house.
• 20:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes you may need a vendor to do that.
• 20:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, it's hard for me to recommend, you know, what makes sense there.
• 20:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: But we also work with.
• 21:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: law firms that have, you know, a pretty basic website and have done zero SEO work and are frequently found by potential clients because they are well known in their practice area and they've developed their reputation really through that third party credibility evaluation.
• 21:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
• 21:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, I know you don't have a crystal ball, but AI is changing so much every day and we've sort of covered some of the changes that have happened like is there anything on your mind that you think people should be thinking about for the future and like next steps after sort of the immediate ones and like how this might continue to change.
• 21:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're right, I don't have a crystal ball and, you know, maybe we enter a world in which there is a new large language model released and all of a sudden law firm websites are going to be the only thing that gets delivered in the search results and everything but that is not the trajectory we seem to be on.
• 21:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Here's what I think we can close to guarantee, people going to general Google search is going to continue to decline while people using an AI chatbot is going to increase significantly.
• 22:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we are currently recording this interview when iOS 27 for iPhones was released yesterday.
• 22:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that has finally fixed Siri, which Siri has sort of been like, you know, running joke for over a decade of how bad it is, or how bad it was.
• 22:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now it's going to be built in, and it's built on Google's Gemini, but here's why that matters.
• 22:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, millions, if not billions, you know, billion plus people have an iPhone.
• 22:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: I really were talking about people in the United States.
• 22:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about, you know, tens of millions of people.
• 22:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: will now have access to a functional Siri with a quick swipe of the finger and be able to ask real questions, Siri and get real answers.
• 23:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that is only going to increase the use of AI and decrease Google's relevancy.
• 23:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: So
• 23:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: That again, it's something that just got released yesterday and even to get access to Syria.
• 23:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a wait list just personally I go to install it yesterday, and I was on the wait list for By 18 hours and I haven't played around it, but I just got through, but more and more people are going to be using that and I think
• 23:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: The fact that it's on an iPhone, what's it's there if the trends prove out adoption rates just, you know, go through the roof.
• 23:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that is something we can guarantee that Google's traditional Google search is going to continue to decline while AI search will increase.
• 23:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, at the what rate I don't know, but you're going to see that significantly.
• 23:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Outside of that, I don't like to make huge proclamations of where things are going to go, but I think it just, you know, people put all their eggs in the SEO basket for quite some time, and now, if we're going to use eggs, chickens are coming home to roost, can we go with that before?
• 24:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Can we do that?
• 24:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: I know you have chickens, Gillian.
• 24:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so the right audience.
• 24:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm the target demo for that, so.
• 24:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 24:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think, um, saying, the days of, oh, I can just focus on my website and SEO.
• 24:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Those are over.
• 24:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I do not think, oh, I can just ignore my website and do other things to make sure I'm in AI.
• 24:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, anyone who's guaranteeing that is selling you a bag of junk.
• 24:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: No one can guarantee that.
• 24:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it is clear, based upon the data we have today, based on the models that are out today, that being in more places that have third-party validation and are more supportive of your reputation, again, this essentially is areas you cannot pay to be in.
• 24:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Your website is a place you pay to be in, advertising is a place you pay to be in, putting impressively some PR newswires, a place you pay to be in, the places you cannot pay to be in are where right now AI is going to recommend that a greater rate.
• 25:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, more credibility.
• 25:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yep, that makes sense.
• 25:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, it's so hard to say where this is going to go.
• 25:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I would first encourage folks, shameless plug to go to rebelpr.com.
• 25:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you will find our AI, SEO report there, which is the free download.
• 25:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Folks can read it.
• 25:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then,
• 25:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to get your feedback, you can tell me I'm full of it, or it was the greatest thing ever.
• 25:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: We are undergoing though it would have massive change in how people get their information.
• 25:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I said this before, it's the biggest shift since the advent of Google.
• 25:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: And what's really interesting about this time is,
• 25:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, we have to discuss this in their report.
• 25:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: You can say like, oh, like being in the news, the news industry is dying, which I would push back and get significantly.
• 25:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: The news business isn't huge trouble.
• 25:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: But there has never been a greater ability for people to get information than today.
• 26:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And tomorrow, there won't be more ways for people to get information.
• 26:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: there is more information available than ever and that is something it's an infinite resource that will continue to grow.
• 26:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you think through that lens, how do I make sure I'm in more places so when people are searching for information, I can be I law firm, I lawyer can be increasing the odds that I am the person that's found to help that person who's in need.
• 26:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think if you
• 26:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: sorry I just people are hungry for like places that they trust right so even though the news business has a moment of pressure like there's also the flip side of like people want to believe what they are reading and their less places where they can do that and so you know these new sources are ways for them to trust you know and if you're quoted in there it like it's just a different kind of visibility.
• 26:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's why it's also a fascinating moment.
• 26:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: You have the use of AI tools is growing exponentially.
• 27:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: At a time when people are looking for places and people and resources, they can trust, which is weird because
• 27:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: AI is showing a lot of distrust, but people are flocking to it.
• 27:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And when it comes to news, it's interesting.
• 27:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you ask people, can you trust the journalists?
• 27:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't know what the current numbers are.
• 27:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: I saw some not too long ago, and trust in journalism is extremely well.
• 27:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: lower than in quite some time.
• 27:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: However, if you ask, you know, and let's just do a quick left right sort of thing, you ask someone, oh, if you ask someone who's more conservative, okay, what about Fox News?
• 27:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, oh, well, of course I can trust them, or you ask someone in the left, can you trust them as NBC?
• 27:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're like, oh, of course I can trust them.
• 27:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: So,
• 27:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's, again, choose your own adventure for how people get information.
• 27:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Local news though is incredibly trusted.
• 27:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's really the national news that has, I think, you know, that has a trust news.
• 28:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: People are, again, I think really, which, while the AI is increasing in use, they are dying for,
• 28:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: real-life interaction and you're I can think you're seeing the pendulum swing back to people wanting to be more involved in their communities have They would be you know much more educated about the dangers of social media And I think people are looking for that like personal interaction.
• 28:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: What can they trust who's credible?
• 28:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: So again while again these things feel incongruent but at the end of the day for a lawyer or a law firm
• 28:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: authentically and also in a way that people can view US credible and someone they can trust.
• 28:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 28:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if someone searches for an attorney or a firm, and they say, like, why, why did you pick this?
• 28:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to, it's only going to help if you have several pieces of COVID coverage, right, to back it up.
• 28:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because sometimes I have a robots, and it'll be like, I don't know.
• 29:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: But then sometimes it'll kind of give me all these sources.
• 29:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's when I'm like, okay, fine.
• 29:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: I trust those things.
• 29:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 29:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And look, this is like a small sample size.
• 29:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: And this is not something, you know, I would consider gospel.
• 29:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: But we, in areas where there's like breaking news,
• 29:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we work with, let's say that, you know, I'm going to give sort of a kind of an example.
• 29:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say there's a big chemical explosion and an ex location and we happen to work with a law firm in that location and they are then quoted in news coverage talking about the impact on the community, what it means, they're not there hooking their services, one that is not something a news outlet would ever consider.
• 29:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: into it is not the type of genuine credible authentic outreach that we would support or ever recommend.
• 29:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: But again, let's give that situation like explosion, ex-community, law from happens to be an ex-community, has expertise in speaking about it.
• 29:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: When people then, again, this is a small sample size, and I want to see this across the board, but when we've done searches being like, hey, tell me about the explosion in x place and you know, and you know, a lawyer I may be able to call,
• 30:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're citing the news coverage immediately that we have worked with the law for them on and then citing the law firm or the lawyer that was in that coverage.
• 30:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, part of that is the model hasn't trained on that data because it just happened.
• 30:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: But a lot of these models have web searchability, researchability, that gets allows them to go search out real-time information, and then they are finding that.
• 30:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: So again, someone could then do that same search a minute later and get a totally different result.
• 30:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, but we were talking to how you increase your chances to be found in this increasingly evolving world.
• 30:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the data we lay on the reports really clear on what AI
• 30:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay.
• 31:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well on that note, just to reiterate, you can go to our site, download the report, and reach out to us.
• 31:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we've about to continue this conversation.
• 31:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Get on a call.
• 31:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 31:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Julian, for filling my enormous shoes.
• 31:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
• 31:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 31:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 31:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
• 31:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for listening to this episode of Raising the Bar with Rebubble PR.
• 31:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Don't forget to subscribe and follow to join us next time.
• 31:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you all then.