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DC Talks - Infinite Leadership with Peter Anderton · DC Talks

• 0:00
  Emma O'Connor: Welcome to DC Talks from Doyle Clayton, a series of podcasts where we take a deep dive into a people management or employment related topic.
• 0:08
  Emma O'Connor: I'm Emma O'Connor, a partner in our employment team and the head of our client training division.
• 0:13
  Emma O'Connor: I'm thrilled to be joined by leadership and executive coach and TEDx speaker, Peter Anderton.
• 0:20
  Emma O'Connor: Peter, welcome.
• 0:22
  Peter Anderton: Hi Emma, it's a delight to be with you.
• 0:24
  Emma O'Connor: Fantastic to have you.
• 0:25
  Emma O'Connor: I know we've been talking for a long time now, so brilliant to finally, finally get to be doing something with you.
• 0:30
  Emma O'Connor: What I wanted to do today, Peter, is really have that kind of broad discussion about state of leadership, leadership in its general sense.
• 0:39
  Emma O'Connor: I suppose there are obviously positives about being in management and being in leadership, but I wonder whether actually is being a leader in 2025 really as positive experiences perhaps it can be and I put that in the context of perhaps there is this perception, particularly of people who are at the earlier stages of their careers thinking that maybe leadership and management isn't for me it's a lot of responsibility do I really want the hustle of it and also is this idea that maybe managers are the first to go in any sort of restructuring.
• 1:18
  Emma O'Connor: So, what do you think the state of leadership is in 2025?
• 1:22
  Peter Anderton: I guess there's two parts to that question, really.
• 1:24
  Peter Anderton: In terms of people wanting to be leaders or not wanting to be leaders, I think the first thing to perhaps recognise is that there is a danger historically that people just assume that you need to climb the ladder and that's what needs to be done.
• 1:36
  Peter Anderton: And I would say one of the best things that we can be doing is following our passion.
• 1:40
  Peter Anderton: And if that means you don't become a leader, then fine.
• 1:43
  Peter Anderton: But what we also have to recognise, of course, is that you can be a leader without actually having any management responsibility whatsoever.
• 1:50
  Peter Anderton: So, the influence that we have around us goes out in waves b ut the second part of that that I would say is that in terms of becoming a leader, a lot of people are put off with it because it's just deemed to be a lot of hassle.
• 2:02
  Peter Anderton: You're wading through treacle.
• 2:03
  Peter Anderton: It's a very frustrating area to be in.
• 2:05
  Peter Anderton: And the point is, it absolutely is if you're doing it wrong.
• 2:09
  Peter Anderton: And the critical thing to recognise as a leader is that you don't actually need to have all of the answers.
• 2:16
  Peter Anderton: You don't actually need to be the one with all of the solutions and in fact, it's better if you don't, because the more you swoop in like the superhero with your pants on the outside saying, come here and let me fix everything, the more you create a team of people who are constantly in need of rescuing.
• 2:33
  Peter Anderton: And you end up, you know, the piles on your desk get bigger and bigger and bigger.
• 2:38
  Peter Anderton: And you end up in this situation where you're almost in this scenario where here I am, and you see this a lot in the service industries, where I'm the expert, I'm in an expert role, and now I'm responsible for managing other people or different accounts in terms of how it works.
• 2:54
  Peter Anderton: And the dilemma we have is that the I get stuck with an old mindset that my job is to do all the projects that I have to do.
• 3:02
  Peter Anderton: And then I squeeze in the stuff I do with people at the end of the day, like an extracurricular activity when there's time.
• 3:08
  Peter Anderton: And of course, there's never time.
• 3:09
  Peter Anderton: So it never happens.
• 3:11
  Peter Anderton: It's all done badly.
• 3:12
  Peter Anderton: And all you get is hassle and grief.
• 3:14
  Peter Anderton: When you turn that whole idea on its head, and I recognise that as leaders, we still have responsibilities, we'll still have portfolios, we'll still have things that we need to deliver ourselves.
• 3:26
  Peter Anderton: But, when we recognise that our job is not actually to deliver the result, but our primary role is to deliver the team who deliver the result, and we do that first and protect that, that's when everything starts to shift from a leadership perspective.
• 3:42
  Peter Anderton: Because there's a tipping point for leaders where your ability to deliver results through other people becomes infinitely more important than your ability to deliver results yourself.
• 3:52
  Peter Anderton: And the ones, the leaders who are most unhappy are the ones who've struggled to make that transition.
• 3:59
  Emma O'Connor: When we think about leadership development, leadership development programs, why is your approach to leadership different?
• 4:08
  Peter Anderton: There's so many programs out there and there's thousands out there, aren't there?
• 4:11
  Peter Anderton: And the problem we have with too many programs is they are spouting theories and models.
• 4:18
  Peter Anderton: And it's all about what you know about leadership.
• 4:22
  Peter Anderton: And it's all about the tools and the techniques.
• 4:26
  Peter Anderton: And I would argue that, to be honest...
• 4:30
  Peter Anderton: I'm not that much of a fan of a whole set of models and theories around leadership.
• 4:35
  Peter Anderton: I believe that we can take a very practical approach to it.
• 4:37
  Peter Anderton: However, we need to move further upstream.
• 4:40
  Peter Anderton: The critical thing to shift when it comes to leadership is mindset.
• 4:44
  Peter Anderton: And when I work with leaders, we shift the way in which they work, the way in which they lead, by building leadership into the way that they think.
• 4:54
  Peter Anderton: So it doesn't become, it's not like a whole set of extra models that you need to learn or a whole stack of extra work or even a personality transplant.
• 5:02
  Peter Anderton: What we're looking at here is if I can shift the way I perceive leadership, then actually the behaviour follows accordingly.
• 5:13
  Emma O'Connor: So it's hard, isn't it?
• 5:14
  Emma O'Connor: Because this is going to be a generalization.
• 5:17
  Emma O'Connor: And as we said, every business is different, every manager, every mindset.
• 5:20
  Emma O'Connor: But where would you say then, if you're shifting a mindset, Where would you say the starting point is in terms of this is where I am now, I am a leader.
• 5:31
  Emma O'Connor: What do I think that means?
• 5:35
  Peter Anderton: So I would argue that the mindset of leadership, it's a bit like the operating system.
• 5:40
  Peter Anderton: You've got to get the operating system right.
• 5:41
  Peter Anderton: I'm on my phone.
• 5:43
  Peter Anderton: I don't know if anybody's the same as me.
• 5:44
  Peter Anderton: I've got so many apps, most of which I never use, and then I've got the ones that I use on my homepage.
• 5:49
  Peter Anderton: Well, actually, apps are great, but if the operating system's not working, then everything crashes.
• 5:54
  Peter Anderton: So the operating system, the mindset of leadership, comes down to two fundamental rules.
• 6:00
  Peter Anderton: And we can literally take, we can strip everything else away from leadership and say, if it doesn't connect to these two rules, it's just noise.
• 6:09
  Peter Anderton: We can park it.
• 6:10
  Peter Anderton: So the starting point, where it all begins, is rule number one of leadership.
• 6:14
  Peter Anderton: And rule number one of leadership says, it's not about you.
• 6:17
  Peter Anderton: That is the first thing that the leader needs to get their head around.
• 6:21
  Peter Anderton: It comes back exactly to what I said earlier on.
• 6:24
  Peter Anderton: What I have to realise, where I have to shift my thinking is, it's not my job to deliver the result.
• 6:29
  Peter Anderton: And that's hard, by the way, if I'm the expert, okay?
• 6:33
  Peter Anderton: But it is my job to deliver the team who deliver the result.
• 6:37
  Peter Anderton: And whilst that sounds like semantics, there is a world of difference between the two.
• 6:41
  Peter Anderton: We are turning the thing on its head and recognizing that that's where I put my energy and my focus.
• 6:47
  Peter Anderton: And by doing that, I'm no longer the bottleneck for the business.
• 6:51
  Peter Anderton: I'm actually creating and enabling a whole range of different possibilities.
• 6:57
  Emma O'Connor: So why is it, Peter, do you think that managers...
• 6:59
  Emma O'Connor: And leaders approach management and leadership in that way that they think they have to know it all.
• 7:07
  Peter Anderton: Okay, so I think there's probably a number of factors here.
• 7:10
  Peter Anderton: So first of all, we have this dilemma that when they're experts in their role, and usually it's a case of, fantastic, you're brilliant at X, now you're going to run the department.
• 7:20
  Peter Anderton: So they've come from the background of being the expert where they're expected to know the answer and they transfer that into that new role without recognising that they're in a different field altogether in terms of what they're offering.
• 7:34
  Peter Anderton: So, I think they take old thinking along with them, I think there's also an element of almost 80s management thinking that, well, I'm the boss, so I should have the answers.
• 7:43
  Peter Anderton: And if I don't have the answers, then I'm incapable as a boss.
• 7:46
  Peter Anderton: And the good news is that rule number one takes a huge amount of pressure off us.
• 7:51
  Peter Anderton: Because it tells us that we don't need to have all of the answers.
• 7:54
  Peter Anderton: In fact, we shouldn't.
• 7:55
  Peter Anderton: What rule number one recognises is the world is becoming increasingly complex and the world is far too complex for any one person to have all of the answers.
• 8:05
  Peter Anderton: So through rule number one, we recognise that the best leaders will draw the answers together from a range of different sources to create the overall solution.
• 8:14
  Peter Anderton: But we have to let go of that and let go of that recognition that I'm supposed to be the one with the answers.
• 8:21
  Peter Anderton: So I think those are probably two really key factors I'm sure we could throw in more but you know it comes back to the education system you're expected to learn the answers aren't you
• 8:30
  Emma O'Connor: And I imagine that when we think about you know leadership coaching and leadership support when we're saying that actually as a leader it's okay not to know all the answers I suppose what we need to think about is that okay, that's great that I don't need to know all the answers, but then am I merely pushing that knowledge and ability to answer all the questions up the leadership and management food chain?
• 9:01
  Emma O'Connor: So dealing with, if you like, middle managers and empowering them that maybe we don't need to know everything, there's somebody else we can ask.
• 9:09
  Emma O'Connor: But also I would imagine it's important then to think above that so the next layer of management, next and next, all the way up to CEO, because all you're doing is just pushing, well, I don't know, ask the person up the food chain, I don't know, ask somebody else.
• 9:27
  Peter Anderton: With that, the best answer is to be pushing the answer down the food chain, not up the food chain.
• 9:31
  Peter Anderton: So it's a case of actually, this is Ali's project, talk to Ali about it, and I know that they're all over this.
• 9:38
  Peter Anderton: So very often the dilemma we have is that from further up the organization, we get asked all sorts of questions and we think we're supposed to have the answers to them.
• 9:45
  Peter Anderton: Now, it's quite a vulnerable place for a leader to be, to be able to say, I don't have the answer, but actually you're talking to the wrong person.
• 9:52
  Peter Anderton: Ali owns this and they're all over it.
• 9:55
  Peter Anderton: And that feels like, well, I don't know what I'm doing.
• 9:58
  Peter Anderton: But when you realize your job's not to deliver the result, your job is to deliver the team who deliver the result, I'm focused on making Ali successful.
• 10:06
  Peter Anderton: And if that means making sure that Ali gets the exposure and the support that's needed to deliver the program over the line, that's a very, very different animal.
• 10:15
  Peter Anderton: So I think we need to be pushing this information down, this ownership down, not up the chain.
• 10:23
  Peter Anderton: It's very much a case of getting it in the right direction.
• 10:25
  Peter Anderton: And of course, it leads to faster decision-making as well.
• 10:29
  Emma O'Connor: So infinite leadership, we have rule number one and rule number two.
• 10:34
  Emma O'Connor: What practical things as a leader could you recommend?
• 10:40
  Peter Anderton: So probably one of my favourite ones with rule number one is when people come to you with a problem or a question, the first thing you respond with is, and for some leaders that I work with, this becomes a bit of a joke with the team, but they quickly cotton on.
• 10:53
  Peter Anderton: What would you do if I wasn't here?
• 10:55
  Peter Anderton: And, you know, some people say, well, I contact such and such or whatever but, you know, the majority of people would say, well, I would do that.
• 11:01
  Peter Anderton: So that's great and we're all familiar with this question, although we don't use it often enough.
• 11:06
  Peter Anderton: I think the important point is the second step, because whatever answer they give you, the temptation is just to improve it a little bit.
• 11:13
  Peter Anderton: So have you thought of this?
• 11:14
  Peter Anderton: Have you thought of that?
• 11:15
  Peter Anderton: Or what about the other?
• 11:16
  Peter Anderton: And actually, the best thing you can do at that point, if you want to be building a team who own what they're doing and don't just bring everything to you for approval all the time or problems to you because they're your problems and not their problems, is if they give you an action that, well, basically, if it isn't a complete car crash, if it's okay, and when I say okay, I mean like it could be a, I don't know, it could be a 55% solution.
• 11:44
  Peter Anderton: My advice is to go with it.
• 11:46
  Peter Anderton: Okay, you can always have a conversation with them further down the line.
• 11:49
  Peter Anderton: So how did it go?
• 11:50
  Peter Anderton: And then have a coaching conversation to see how they could have improved their approach.
• 11:54
  Peter Anderton: But resist the temptation to give them those extra tidbits based on your experience, as long as you're not setting them up for failure.
• 12:03
  Peter Anderton: So don't let them crash, but let them roll with it.
• 12:08
  Emma O'Connor: So Peter, we've talked about rule number one.
• 12:10
  Emma O'Connor: What about rule number two?
• 12:12
  Peter Anderton: ?
• 12:12
  Peter Anderton: So rule number two is, If rule number one says it's not about you, it's not about your solutions, it's not about your way of doing things, it's not about your ego, what rule number two, and that's the foundation for all things leadership, what rule number two says is that when it comes to making things happen, when it comes to creating change, when it comes to anything moving forwards, real leaders recognise they can't change anybody else's behaviour.
• 12:42
  Peter Anderton: Okay.
• 12:44
  Peter Anderton: But what they recognise is that they can change their own.
• 12:46
  Peter Anderton: You know, I frequently say to leaders, if you look at your team and you don't like what you see, look in the mirror.
• 12:51
  Peter Anderton: Because in time, your team become a reflection of you and your behaviour.
• 12:56
  Peter Anderton: And that's a critical thing for us to recognise.
• 12:58
  Peter Anderton: So when it comes to rule number two, What we have to realize is that real leaders stop waiting for everybody else to get their act together and start cleaning up their own act.
• 13:10
  Peter Anderton: I mean, Nelson Mandela captures this beautifully.
• 13:13
  Peter Anderton: He said, I could not change others until I changed myself and in essence, what we're recognising here is that if rule number one says it's not about you, your solutions, your ideas, and it's not about your ego, what rule number two says is stop waiting for everybody else to change and start focusing on how you can change your behaviour in order to create a different response from those around us.
• 13:34
  Peter Anderton: We make our own weather.
• 13:35
  Peter Anderton: And there's a critical thing to recognise here that if we want people to follow us, really follow us, then we need to be a leader worth following.
• 13:43
  Peter Anderton: So whilst I'm not a big fan of models, I love John Maxwell's five levels of leadership.
• 13:47
  Peter Anderton: I don't know if you've talked about it on this podcast before, but very briefly.
• 13:50
  Peter Anderton: Level one leadership is where people will follow you because they have to.
• 13:54
  Peter Anderton: And just visualize an iceberg here.
• 13:57
  Peter Anderton: And the tip of the iceberg is what people have to give.
• 14:02
  Emma O'Connor: transactional, isn't it?
• 14:03
  Peter Anderton: Absolutely.
• 14:04
  Emma O'Connor: Transactional relationships.
• 14:05
  Peter Anderton: So a completely transactional relationship at that point.
• 14:07
  Peter Anderton: And people will give you, when they only follow you because they have to, they will give you the minimum.
• 14:11
  Peter Anderton: Level two leadership he talks about is where people follow you because they like you.
• 14:15
  Peter Anderton: And I'm not talking about trying to be everybody's friend or trying to be a nice manager.
• 14:20
  Peter Anderton: Nice managers are rubbish.
• 14:21
  Peter Anderton: I believe we should be a kind manager.
• 14:23
  Peter Anderton: but that's a very different thing to being a nice manager.
• 14:26
  Peter Anderton: So I'm not talking about being everybody's bestest buddies, but we've all worked for somebody we liked and we've all worked for somebody we didn't like.
• 14:31
  Peter Anderton: You get more when there's a relationship.
• 14:33
  Peter Anderton: Now we're beneath the water level and we're into the discretionary effort, what we can choose to get.
• 14:38
  Peter Anderton: And of course, what we have to recognise here is that we live in a world where we can't get by with people just giving the minimum.
• 14:44
  Peter Anderton: If our team are giving the minimum, we're done for.
• 14:46
  Peter Anderton: So this is- So you've bent yourself out or you're bent out, aren't you?
• 14:50
  Peter Anderton: Absolutely.
• 14:50
  Peter Anderton: Absolutely.
• 14:51
  Peter Anderton: So the point is that this whole leadership idea, it's not a nice to have.
• 14:55
  Peter Anderton: This is not fluffy stuff that we haven't got time for.
• 14:59
  Peter Anderton: We can't afford to ignore it.
• 15:01
  Peter Anderton: Level three leadership is where they follow you because you deliver.
• 15:04
  Peter Anderton: You follow through on your commitments.
• 15:06
  Peter Anderton: Things are better because you are there.
• 15:07
  Peter Anderton: And again, we've now got a deeper level of commitment.
• 15:10
  Peter Anderton: Level four leadership is where they follow because you've helped them grow.
• 15:14
  Peter Anderton: I mean, if you just think back to your own experience, there will be managers that you can think of that have helped you become the person you are today.
• 15:20
  Peter Anderton: And if one of them picks up the phone and says, Emma, I need a favour a nd as long as it's not burying a body in the woods, what are you going to do?
• 15:28
  Emma O'Connor: Exactly
• 15:29
  Peter Anderton: You're going to do it.
• 15:30
  Peter Anderton: And you might not even work for them anymore, but there's a level of commitment there.
• 15:33
  Peter Anderton: And it would be great if people came with a remote control that we could just press a button and say zap.
• 15:38
  Peter Anderton: It's about time you move from level two effort to level three effort.
• 15:41
  Peter Anderton: Thank you very much.
• 15:42
  Peter Anderton: But the point is there is no remote control and we don't get to make that choice.
• 15:47
  Peter Anderton: They do.
• 15:48
  Peter Anderton: That's why rule number one is so important.
• 15:49
  Peter Anderton: It's their choice.
• 15:50
  Peter Anderton: We have to focus our energy and our effort on them in order to facilitate that choice.
• 15:56
  Peter Anderton: But there's no remote control to move people from one to the next.
• 15:59
  Peter Anderton: And level five leadership brings us face to face with rule number two, because level five leadership is where people will give you everything.
• 16:06
  Peter Anderton: I mean, blood, sweat and tears.
• 16:07
  Peter Anderton: And this is not manipulation.
• 16:09
  Peter Anderton: They are choosing to do this.
• 16:10
  Peter Anderton: Level five leadership is where they follow you because of who you are and what you represent.
• 16:15
  Peter Anderton: And that's ultimately where they will give you absolutely everything.
• 16:19
  Peter Anderton: And that brings us face to face with rule number two, because rule number two, if you like, is like Gandhi's be the change that you want to see in the world.
• 16:26
  Peter Anderton: That there's no remote control.
• 16:28
  Peter Anderton: You can't press a button and make other people change.
• 16:31
  Peter Anderton: The only thing that's within your control is what?
• 16:35
  Emma O'Connor: Yourself, isn't it?
• 16:35
  Peter Anderton: Yourself, your own behaviour.
• 16:36
  Peter Anderton: So what rule number two says to us then, well, actually, it's only about you.
• 16:41
  Peter Anderton: It's only about your behaviour.
• 16:43
  Peter Anderton: Stop waiting for everybody else to sort themselves out and you move forward.
• 16:47
  Peter Anderton: You take action.
• 16:47
  Peter Anderton: What can you do?
• 16:49
  Peter Anderton: If this relationship is not where it needs to be, if this team is not where it needs to be, if this business is not where it needs to be, how are you going to change your behaviour in order to get a different response to enable things to move into a different direction?
• 17:01
  Peter Anderton: So if rule number one is the foundation of leadership, rule number two is what makes things happen, what gets things moving, what helps you become a leader that people would follow anywhere.
• 17:11
  Peter Anderton: And the critical point for us for rule number two is to really look in the mirror and ask ourselves, so where am I?
• 17:19
  Peter Anderton: Am I at that point or not?
• 17:21
  Peter Anderton: What level am I leading at?
• 17:22
  Peter Anderton: And it's a rare person I mentioned at the start about that tipping point.
• 17:26
  Peter Anderton: We have to recognise where our ability to deliver results to others becomes infinitely more important than our ability to deliver results ourselves.
• 17:34
  Peter Anderton: It's a rare person that gets through that naturally without any help.
• 17:38
  Peter Anderton: And that's why the kind of work that we're talking about here is so important, because most people will get at the very least partially stuck in the expert trap and never really get things moving.
• 17:51
  Peter Anderton: But if you with the right support, and that's what infinite leadership is about, we can really help people shift their mindset, because once you've got those two rules and it's not enough to know them, you have to get them.
• 18:02
  Peter Anderton: You have to get them and apply them and build it into the way that you think and the way that you work.
• 18:08
  Peter Anderton: So it's much more than a brief conversation.
• 18:10
  Peter Anderton: But once that's built into your thinking, leadership becomes a natural process and it changes everything.
• 18:18
  Peter Anderton: One of the best things we can do, recognising that we don't need to have all of the answers, is go out there and give our teams a really good listening to.
• 18:27
  Peter Anderton: Because usually the answer is already in the room.
• 18:30
  Peter Anderton: And if we take the time to listen, and the great thing about listening, listening is a superpower because, and listening is all about rule number one.
• 18:38
  Peter Anderton: You know, when the other person's speaking, it's not about you because usually we're thinking about what we're going to say, aren't we?
• 18:43
  Peter Anderton: Okay.
• 18:43
  Peter Anderton: But the thing I would say here is really take some time listening to the team.
• 18:48
  Peter Anderton: It works wonders for connection and relationships.
• 18:51
  Peter Anderton: It works wonders for people solving their own problems.
• 18:54
  Peter Anderton: And it also works wonders in terms of making sure that the organization and the team are moving in the right direction.
• 18:59
  Peter Anderton: So it covers all key bases.
• 19:01
  Peter Anderton: The second thing I would throw into the pot here is there's a particular favourite question of mine, which is, if I wasn't here, what would you do?
• 19:10
  Peter Anderton: People come to you with a problem or a question, or they're looking for approval for something.
• 19:15
  Peter Anderton: And the question to ask here is, if I wasn't here, what would you do?
• 19:19
  Peter Anderton: And okay, we've heard that.
• 19:21
  Peter Anderton: question before but I think the important thing is what happens next what happens next is our temptation is when they give us an answer that's okay let's assume it's not a car crash it's okay we want to improve it we want to enhance it we want to say have you thought about this and what about the other it's a natural response particularly if we're in an expert based role and what I would say at that point is just don't if it's not a car crash say brilliant do that then Now further down the line, you can have a coaching conversation with them to say, so how did it go?
• 19:53
  Peter Anderton: And then you can help them draw out the learning from it so they can understand what's going on.
• 19:57
  Peter Anderton: But don't create that environment where it's totally reliant on your expert opinion and the team become reliant on that.
• 20:05
  Peter Anderton: And the third thing I would say is get to work on yourself.
• 20:08
  Peter Anderton: Don't kid yourself that you should just get this naturally.
• 20:12
  Peter Anderton: This is hard.
• 20:13
  Peter Anderton: Leadership is simple, but it's not easy.
• 20:17
  Peter Anderton: And take the time to invest.
• 20:19
  Peter Anderton: Actually recognise that getting help is a sign of strength so that you can shift through that transition of delivering results through other people as opposed to being the one who delivers results yourself.
• 20:33
  Peter Anderton: Because, the bottom line here is, if you don't change, nothing changes.
• 20:38
  Peter Anderton: But once you change, everything changes.
• 20:45
  Emma O'Connor: I think, Peter, that's probably a fantastic line to end our discussion absolutely fascinating I think my takeaways are very much leadership is about being vulnerable it is hard if it was easy everyone could do it you can't change people's behaviours that you can change yourself thank you so much Peter it's been absolutely brilliant.
• 21:07
  Peter Anderton: My pleasure I've loved it, thank you for having me on.
• 21:09
  Emma O'Connor: Thank you so much And don't forget to like and subscribe to our podcast, DC Talks, wherever you pick up your podcasts.
• 21:18
  Emma O'Connor: Thank you very much.
• 21:19
  Emma O'Connor: Until the next episode, goodbye.