Latest / Yips and Giggles / Olivia Papakyrikos & High Performers
Transcript
- speaker-0: guys. Welcome to our podcast. speaker-1: she finally realized that it was all mental What's up y'all? Welcome back to Yips and Giggles. We have a fantastic guest this week, Olivia Papakourikos. She is a licensed therapist and mental performance coach who works with athletes and high performing individuals. She specializes in both mental health and sport performance, helping clients navigate pressure, regulate emotions, and move through challenges while building confidence and performing at their highest level. She's the founder of Papakourikos Therapy and Performance. which is a Boston based practice offering mental health therapy, sports psychology, and performance consulting to individuals, teams, and organizations. We have a fantastic episode with her today. We get into lots of different topics like resilience, habit stacking, body image. We get into it all. Get right into it. So yeah, I think we kind of just wanted to ask you how you got into sports psychology and mental performance because you've kind of taken like a little bit of a different route. There's so many routes to get into sports psychology, you know what I mean? And so it's interesting to see kind of your LMHC background and everything. So we'd to love to hear about that first. speaker-2: Yeah, for sure. So yeah, I mean, I was a college athlete. I navigated a lot of this stuff and I knew I wanted to go into sports psychology, but I really wanted a program that gave me a lot of application and a lot of hands-on experience. And at that time, like there wasn't that many programs that really gave you like internships and hands-on experience actually working with athletes and doing the work. Like they taught you the theories and the concepts, but then you're like, all right, go do this. And it's not a career I'll. where there's like all these jobs you can just apply to or at least not back then. And so you were kind of left to your own devices if you didn't have that experience. And so I was really fortunate. mean, Boston University's program was a master's in mental health counseling and a specialization in performance psychology. And so you did your internship in the clinical setting and the mental health therapy world. And you also had a full internship both years in sports psychology, working with athletes at different like division one and three schools. And so it really that hands-on experience. And so for me, you know, I think a lot of people when they see just like my background, it looks a little bit different because I think a lot of these programs are just not built all the same. But it's been a really cool experience to kind of have both areas and to not just be into the mental performance coaching, but also be in that therapy and mental performance space. Because I think like for a lot of people, they think it's like, how do we enhance performance in a lot of spaces? like mental health is performance, mental health is health, and like it all goes together. And so if someone's not in the best mental space to be actually performing, mental skills aren't necessarily going to help them perform better. It's like helping them get back to a baseline. And so I think it's a really nice continuum and it's a cool space to exist in just because I think both are so critical. speaker-0: Yeah, for sure. And I feel like people sometimes forget, like specifically with professional and college athletes that like they're people first, right? And you want to take care of the person first, not just get the most performance out of them and, you know, treat them like an object. So it's super cool to hear that. That's that's what you're focusing on, kind of like the person as a whole and and how to really just get all these different aspects of their life down and help them get back to a base state where they can. eventually feel like they can start working on all these other things, but getting the base state down. What kind of performers are you working with at the moment? speaker-2: So at this point, a lot of runners, especially with Boston Marathon coming up, mean, that's like a baseline in general. But ⁓ I do a lot of work with soccer players, a lot of work with ⁓ lacrosse, especially golf. ⁓ Rowing comes up a lot. I do a lot of rowing and softball. But it's funny because over the course of my career, I feel like I've dabbled in pretty much most sports because people come and go in different settings. It's so interesting to see just how certain sports maybe reach out more in different seasons or different times of life. And like sometimes I'm working with more gymnasts and sometimes I'm working with, you know, more football or whatever it might be. it really depends and depends on also the climate and where we're at with accepting some of these things. But right now it's been a lot of running and a lot of like triathlon training just because the endurance sports are really hitting their prime right now. speaker-1: That's pretty cool. And I like that you're getting to work with all these different sports because I'm sure they all have different problems as well. So you're seeing a of things, but are there certain areas you like to work in and certain topics you like to work in specifically in sports, psychology and mental performance? speaker-2: Yeah, so I think it depends, right? Like when it comes to a little bit more of the clinical side of it, you know, I do a lot of disorder dating, body image, right? How do we like really create spaces where that stuff is supported? And I really love that work. But I think the other side of it is really just like the like, how do we get through mental blocks? How do we perform at our best in that sense? Because I think a lot of times like we make a mistake, we have something go wrong and we just don't have the skills or tools to navigate it. And it can feel like this fail. That's one of the areas I really love to do work in. I do a lot of work in injury recovery as well, just because my background, like I was an injured athlete, I had surgeries, had all the, everything that could have gone wrong really did. And so that's like a population or a grouping of people that is just really near to me. And I really resonate with what they're going through. speaker-0: And when you're kind of working on, you know, injury recovery or the mental block specifically, do you find it because you played field hockey in college, right? So, for example, you're working with a lot of runners right now, endurance athletes. How do you like kind of adapt to the different? It's a very different sport than what you had personal experience with. So how do you adapt to helping them work through their mental blocks? And it might be manifesting in a different way than, you know, what you experienced and things like that. speaker-2: So think a big part of it is like doing your research ahead of time to familiarize yourself enough with that sport. Like I think there was a time when even like fencing, worked with a handful of fencers and I was like, I don't know, the first thing about fencing, like, actually called a bout, like things like that. I was like, what are you talking about? I have no idea. And so like, I really had to do like a deep dive and really like get more embedded in that sport and really understand like, what are the... speaker-0: You don't speaker-2: like nuances in that sport, because I think it's hard to really help someone in some setting, even if you know all of the research and the application and the technique. And if you really don't know what that sport looks like in the moments when pressure hits that sport, then it's really hard to apply it and to build visualization scripts that actually work because you don't know the sport. And so it takes a lot. I think it takes a lot more work to not know that sport. And it's definitely been different. mean, I running is one of those sports where like, even if I'm not an endurance runner, it's Like I feel like a lot of us as we train, we had to run and we had to push some of those limits. So it's like a similar mindset for me, like every mouse is endurance. it's not, but I process. speaker-1: compare the thoughts. Right. That's funny. And I do agree, like coming from kind of a mental performance coach perspective, if you don't really know the lingo and how to really actually talk with the specific sport, I feel like they're going to kind of look at you and be like, you don't really know what you're talking about. So you're pretty much automatically getting judged. So I think it is important to at least, you know, do a little bit of a deep dive before you actually go and work with teams or individuals and things like that. like you said, I don't know a thing about fencing if I were to work with the fencing athlete. So it is the research behind it. And I don't think people really understand that sometimes. And also, we kind of want to talk a little bit about, I guess this would kind of go along with the runners and the marathons and things like that, but resilience and kind of what that looks like to you. And we come from a tennis background, so. It is a little bit different from other sports because we could be making a mistake every 30 seconds basically, and you got to just go on to the next point, but it's hard to have that resilience and not look back on those mistakes. And so what do you think resilience looks like to you in an athlete? speaker-2: I think resilience often gets talked about as like bouncing back. And I think that's part of it. But I also think there's this element of like bouncing forward, right? How do we bounce forward? How do we find a way to adapt to navigate that adversity to to learn to pivot, to adjust? And I think what's really hard with resilience is like I could be resilient after that first mistake or that first slip. But then if I keep making that same mistake, it gets harder and harder to be resilient. And so a lot of times I think of resilience as like How do we navigate that moment? What are the tools we have to keep going, to keep pushing, to keep driving? Because yeah, sometimes we make a mistake, we pivot, we adjust, and we move forward, right? And that's a resilient moment still. But the greater test of resilience is like, how do we push forward when we keep having some setback hit us over and over? Like the same injury keeps flaring up. Like how do we keep pushing? How do we stay the course when we feel really hopeless or defeated in that moment? speaker-0: And so what are some of the techniques that you talk through with the people that you work with on? Because, you know, like everyone knows you have to keep pushing forward. Like in theory, we know like it's not the end of the world. It's just a mistake or you're just having a setback. You just need to keep working, keep pushing forward. But it's harder to actually implement sometimes and to take those steps and stay positive and things like that. So what are some techniques that you guys work on? speaker-2: Yeah. So I think a lot of it is like, how do we downshift ourself emotion-wise? Or like, how do we regulate our nervous system? Because our nervous system is responding to threat. Like we have that setback, we make a big and it feels like final. Like it feels like the end of the world. And so it's responding in that same way. Like our heart rate's going fast. Like everything is going a mile a minute. Right. And so think the biggest things are like really learning one, how do we like reframe that moment? But also how do we reset ourselves? How do we take that deep breath? right with that longer exhale that's going to help slow us down or even just like a physiological side. You know, I was just talking about this with someone in a session recently of like, take that deep breath in, take the second inhale to expand all those other areas because in our body, like these tiny air sacs in our lungs, they collapse when we're activated. And so yeah, your lung is still expanding, but these tiny things that hold that extra air aren't necessarily functioning that same way. So getting that second breath and then doing that long exhale. can be a really effective way just to slow that moment down and yet it still takes 10 seconds, right? It doesn't take any, but really trying to find the skills to get ourselves back to a little bit more of a regulated nervous system space so that we can do it. When we're activated, like if we're at like zero out of 10 and we're at the 10, like I'm not thinking what's the reframe or what's my, like I'm not doing that. Like it's just not habit, right? Like, speaker-0: All right. speaker-2: And so really trying to work on just slowing the moment down ever so slightly, as quick as we can, can make a really big difference. speaker-1: Yeah, it's so easy to just get yourself a little bit too hyped in the moment sometimes, I feel like, and your body almost like reacts to it. I mean, I remember when we were playing, like I would shake, like I would, and then your mind starts going in a million different directions. And yeah, it's just, it's just about getting kind of that emotional and physical regulation because again, people really. don't seem to understand just how connected your mind is to your body and your body is to your mind. It's like, you know, if one thing goes crazy, the other thing's going to go crazy. You know what I mean? So I think a lot of people have, you know, trouble with that. And when you say kind of reframing the situation, so once you've gotten that regulation, what do you think is the best way to kind of reframe what's happening in that moment? speaker-2: Yeah. I think it's about like kind of narrowing our focus to what's controllable, right? In that moment, we can't change what just happened. We can't change any of the play that we just did or what went down. And it's like, what do we need to focus on right now? Like, what is this thing asking of me right now? Right? Like, I think the what now or next play, right? Like, what's the biggest thing I need to be paying attention to in this moment? And oftentimes, like something even as simple as like figuring out what is the process, what is the task, the cue that we need here after that, that you do every time you make a mistake. It doesn't have to be anything complex. For some athletes, it could be just like, keep your stick down or keep your eyes up. It could be like eyes up. And that's what you say every time you bounce back. You take the breath, you say eyes up, and you keep going. But if you build that habit, it's like it doesn't have to be this complicated system as long as it's something you keep doing. speaker-1: Yeah, I feel like when it's, you know, in performance, you want to keep it as simple as possible. We don't have time to go through a whole mindfulness exercise. We need to keep it succinct. And I think that's what people need to kind of understand is like, it's also going to depend on the person and their personality. They're going to have their own things. It's all going to be kind of what you want to think about in that moment, you know, which I find always kind of interesting to learn with different athletes and how they respond. speaker-0: I also think it's important for people to realize that, you know, these techniques aren't just going to miraculously like work the first time you do it, right? And it takes like repetition and formation of those habits, like you were saying, to finally get in a space where you don't have to like think about it and you can kind of just let it, whatever your cue is, just let it happen and really like just get yourself back to that like ground level again, where then you can again start building on. those different techniques that you have. ⁓ But so kind of going off of that, ⁓ you mentioned habits a couple of times. Can you explain what habit stacking is? speaker-2: Yeah. So habit stacking is essentially like taking a habit we already have and anchoring a new behavior to it that we want to form a habit into. So like for a lot of people, it's really hard to build new habits because either we're in the motions of life, we like, we just don't think to like even just like incorporating affirmations or self-talk or a script. Like a lot of times athletes are like, ⁓ like I really wanted to do that. And I just like forgot like in the moment it just completely set my mind. And so, and this applies to all humans in any domain, but it's anchoring that to something we already do, because a lot of the times we have a ton of habits, like whether it's we wake up, we brush our teeth, we make coffee, Not thinking about it, whatever that routine is for you is gonna be that baseline, but then adding something in. So maybe for me, it's like, okay, while I'm drinking my coffee, I'm gonna sit down and journal, and I'm gonna put my journal right next to the coffee machine to remind me to do that every time. Or, speaker-0: It's automatic. speaker-2: While my coffee's brewing, I'm gonna put a glass of water there so I know to drink my water before I have my coffee, right? But it's pairing something you wanna make a habit out of with habits you already have so we can actually help you be more consistent and actually accomplish that and move it into your routine. speaker-1: Yeah, and I relate to that so much because, you know, when you're when you're a college student athlete, you pretty much have your schedule set and you're like just trying to, you know, Where's like, feel like. Like, I have this class at this time, whatever. But then I feel like once I was done competing and I actually had to like, you know. speaker-0: We're running on autopilot. speaker-1: make myself form habits again and create a routine. I really struggled. was like, well, I don't really have to do this today. You know what I mean? And I was, it wasn't making myself better at all. Like I, I needed to learn how to kind of do that habit stacking. And so I think even, you know, forming habits is going to look pretty different before college, during college and after college. And so that's something that I really want to take into my daily life now is like, for example, like I'm working on mobility or something in the mornings. It's like, okay, well, normally I'm, you know, again, like brewing a coffee or making a tea. It's like, okay, I can do like five minutes of mobility while that's, you know, happening on the side. So it's nice because it's just linking to things that you already do, which makes it a lot easier in a sense, which I wish somebody would have told me that before I graduated. speaker-2: I'd only known that like years and years ago. think today would be different. speaker-1: 100 % because it's hard. I mean you're going from your schedule is this isn't this to pretty much all right You're free to do whatever you want now So I think it is kind of switching that mindset and and I think habit stacking would actually really help a lot of people speaker-0: Yeah, I really had a hard time like after I graduated and started working in the corporate world. Yeah. Just go off on a little tangent here of just like, well, I don't know what time to wake up. I don't know what time I want to eat. Like it's it's simple things. You would think I was a baby. I was like, I don't know what to eat. I don't know what time I want to eat. I don't know how to work out anymore. Yeah. Yeah. And it just really took a while of me like figuring out a routine that worked for me. And again, building those habits. To really get in a groove, but it was hard those first few months and I actually I read your your blog post about Transition like your future after college sports and I was reading and I was like man It's all these things I came to discover myself But I just kind of wish that I'd had someone to like talk to so that they can help me figure this stuff out, too So do you also work with with like retired quote-unquote athletes or is it mostly? speaker-2: Yeah, so I work a lot with both. So I do like current athletes, but I mean, for me, like my, would label you as still an athlete, even if you're not competing or training. still an athlete. So like, you're a high achieving person, right? Like maybe you aren't actively competing, but in your corporate job, you work hard, you're using those same skills. Like you're still an athlete. So I work with a lot of people post college and post, you know, experiencing that transition out of sport. One, cause the transition is hard, like you said, but two, just cause. You're facing a lot of similar stuff in the world as you're trying to navigate it. speaker-1: Right. Yeah. And I always tell people, like, again, like you said, we are still technically athletes. And I think there's just so many values that you can take from being an athlete and just, you know, training, learning how to transfer it into your new life. Right. ⁓ Like for Anya, it's like she has such incredible discipline from being an athlete. Like corporate world is probably easy for her. Like she's probably walking the park. speaker-0: I do have to say, we were talking about this yesterday because we were together yesterday. And I was like, I swear to God, like some of these can not try and talk badly, but some people I feel like in the corporate world are like, I work so many hours, this and that. And I'm like, I think you just don't can't manage your time efficiently. Like, honestly, because there's no way some of these tasks or whatever you have to do should be taking you versus like me. I feel like I got into the mindset of of when we were athletes, we had a limited amount of time of doing homework or projects, studying for things, other outside responsibilities where you had to be really efficient with your time and you had to get things done. speaker-2: But it's like such a different way of thinking too, because I think you're spot on. I've heard people say, know, X minus Z takes this amount of time. And it's like, when you're used to having such little pockets of time, like you have to get, there's no option. Like it's going to get done or else, right? And so I think it's such a different thing with mine, because like the idea of like, I'll just, I'll get it done. And it's, I think it's healthy to take breaks and rest and not have to rush through everything too. But I also think there's a level of like, there's this middle grade area where it's like, we can be productive and efficient. and then have time for more rest and more recovery. speaker-1: 100%. speaker-0: Yeah, for sure. I also what you just said made me think of I also struggled with the idea of that after college I didn't have to do everything a hundred and fifty percent all the time ⁓ to feel like I was making my valuable use of my time. Right. And I wonder if that's something that you encounter with again working with your athletes or high performers post college. speaker-2: all the time because like they're so hard. mean, me too. Like we're so hardwired to go all the way to give everything we have because that's the baseline, right? Like peak performance is what we're always striving for. But then after some of these spaces, it's like, wait, we can't actually be in peak performance at all times. Like that's not healthy. That's not sustainable. And that's such a hard disconnect, especially when like maybe the passion for your sport is different than the passion for your job. You may love your job, but it's not the same. And it's like, How do we keep pushing? How do we find the balance of not overdoing it or being able to be like, yeah, I did good work. That's good. It doesn't have to be all this greater meeting or process. speaker-1: Yeah, kind of going off of that, pivoting a little bit, ⁓ you know, with your kind of more clinical work and mental health work, we also, you know, there's a big, there are usually big problems with body image in athletics. And you'll see it on the women's side and the men's side. And I know you work a little bit with it. And so we kind of want to ask you a little bit because Anya and I did a little project at Wake Forest where it was called the Female Athlete Body Project. ⁓ And basically we would just kind of go to all the women's teams, kind of get them together and just do a little discussion just around body image and you know what it's like in society versus athletics and you know the expectations and how you know certain things can kind of almost like hurt you as an athlete, ⁓ especially as a female athlete. You know, you might have some menstrual problems if you're overworking, over exercising and kind of learning how to balance that. And we really liked having that kind of open discussion with, you know, a sensitive topic, but it was really nice to kind of just chat with other girls that are very high performing athletes and kind of see their perspective. So we were wondering kind of what topics you really discuss in body image and what you kind of see in different sports. speaker-2: Yeah. I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head, like this idea of like our athletic body versus our aesthetic body, right? Like what the world is pushing on us of what we should look like aesthetically. Oftentimes is in direct conflict with what our athletic body is or like even should be for our sport. Like we hear a lot of pressure. This is what this kind of athlete looks like. And so I think there's a lot of really important topics to come up in that, because even beyond that, right, uniforms, like gear we're getting, like all these things, like it's all perpetuating this idea or this focus on our body and not viewing our body as this vessel, but viewing it as an ornament. If I have to wear X, Y, Z shorter outfit, is this actually making me perform better or is this some level of this is how it's always been, but it was always like that because our body is an ornament. Really looking at what that culture is and what things are able or willing to shift like I do. There's one school I've been working with five years now. Every preseason I do a body image. talk with them on and like discussion on like just navigating all this. And one thing that came up with that school is like their team uniforms, like the sweatshirts say in big letters in the front what size it is. And they're like, it's awful. Like walking around like your size of your clothing is just like broadcasted to everyone. And it's like the athletic gear. Like it's not just one team. And we were like, that's just like, if someone's feeling uncomfortable in their body, like that's awful. Like we're gonna walk around and just feel like, ooh, like I don't wanna wear this or I'm hiding. And it's like, there's so much. of our world that's ingrained with such disordered body image ways of functioning and it's labeling those and talking about them to be like, you're not alone. Like that isn't okay. Like that isn't, no one's gonna feel good if that's what they're facing every day. speaker-1: Right. We also, yeah, that is so bizarre. It kind of takes me back on you. don't know if you remember this, but we had, you we had different uniforms every year and tennis is always kind of like the they always expect you to like look pretty when you play, ⁓ which is very, very hard in the first place when you're grinding for three hours. Well, you know, you enjoy the cute outfits, but at the same time, I remember one year speaker-0: That is bizarre. speaker-1: We had this skirt that was genuinely, what would we call it Anya? It was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was the shortest skirt that you could find and nobody would. speaker-0: ⁓ the Sherab Hova skirt. Yeah, yeah, The shortest height is skirt. speaker-1: Nobody was comfortable wearing it like everyone was basically like boycotting the skirt We're like we're never wearing this for a match because like you like couldn't move without like flashing somebody speaker-0: ⁓ wait, no, it was the L.R. Yeah, had a different Sharapova skirt. Yeah, it was like the name of a like a local bar. Yeah. Basically, because it was like a mini skirt that you would not wear to, you know, one of those. And we also used to. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was not not fun. ⁓ But also we used to do things and it was it was for. like athletic performance, but things such as weighing in and weighing out before a match, which, you know, would sometimes trigger certain people too. Right. So it's kind of hard to balance. feel like in like the decks of scans and they talk about like your BMI and your your the amount of muscle mass versus fat on your body. And again, I know they're, you know, the purpose of it is to try to enhance athletic performance, but it's kind of a tricky topic to navigate, especially when people maybe aren't feeling so good in their bodies. I also remember that I think it was the track or cross country team. Yeah. Cross country team that we talked with for the female athlete body project in school where some of the girls were telling us like, yeah, we do understand like, you know, it's, it's not healthy, but in our sports, sometimes being smaller makes you faster. helps you with your performance and people push the limits of you know, how little can I eat to make sure that I go faster? So it's, it's kind of interesting to see how sometimes entangled athletic performance can be with body image issues. ⁓ and I'm just wondering kind of how you go about navigating that and maybe trying to get people to see their body more for what they can do for them versus what it looks like. speaker-2: I think it's hard, depends on the person, because in some ways I hear two different things there. One is like, okay, the normalized idea, which isn't necessarily true, that if I'm smaller, I'll be faster. I think a lot of people talk about that, they see that. And I think to some degree, in some environments, it's shown to be true, but that doesn't actually mean it is. And I think it's the idea that actually a stronger body is gonna go faster and it's gonna power through. But I think even thinking about what our body looks like then, right? You see all the time, like people post, OK, this is what my body looks like. And I just ran an ultra marathon or I just like swam all these miles. And it's like, I think there's just like really hard shift. I think we're trying to make it as a sports community. this shift of like your body doesn't have to look the way you should think it looks to perform well in your sport. And I think we wear it and we put those things in a box or so long. Like if you look like this, you're going to be fast. You're going to be the best. But the reality is like people are breaking world records. People are. doing these amazing athletic accomplishments and their body looks nothing like what we think it should look like. And that doesn't mean anything wrong with their body. It just means like all of these norms and these standards that are put on female athletes in their bodies, right? Make us feel like we should look a certain way or it should be that way. speaker-1: Mm Yeah. And I think also with, you know, how social media is now, it's just like constant. You're seeing, you know, the skinniest, like non muscular, you know, influencers. And as an athlete, you're kind of looking at that, not not like hating on it or anything. But you're like, like, is that what I should look like? And it's like, no, that's not conducive to what you're doing every day. I also find it interesting. Do you see any? like male athletes that have a lot of body image issues? Like are there differences between the female and the male body image issues? speaker-2: So I do. mean, in that one school I was talking about, I do a talk with their male team as well, and we separate that out. And there is still a lot of body image stuff and disordered eating stuff that comes up in male athletes. And I think oftentimes it's less reported. Males are less likely to report these things, but they are coming up a lot. And it is something we see a lot. And sometimes it looks a little bit different, right? There are still male athletes. feel like their body should be leaner and smaller to run faster, or depending on their sport. But there's also the body images that come with like certain sports. It's like, need to be bigger. I need to be stronger. I need to be the most shredded and I need to look this way. And it's like this idea that every sport body, no matter if it's male or female or whatever it might be, like there's all these different barriers are facing and the expectations there. And, you know, a lot of male athletes that maybe want to look a certain way. And it's like, but I need to be bigger. I need to be stronger. And it's like this, like in some ways, obsessive thinking about it. I'm like, if I'm this and I'm not good enough and It makes sense why that's coming up. the same way that ⁓ a woman might feel as though if I need to be this small to be good enough. Both ends of that spectrum can exist with everyone. It's not just males versus females. speaker-0: And then all of these obviously playing into that is this like hyper focus on nutrition, right? Either one end of the spectrum of not eating enough, not fueling your body enough or the other end of the spectrum. You know, like certain, for example, like football players, certain positions need to look a certain way, be a certain size, right? And they're like force fed consistently. ⁓ I'm wondering like what are some techniques that you use to try to help? I know it's a sensitive and difficult thing and it depends person to person, but how do you even go about trying to tackle this hyper focus on nutrition either end of the spectrum? speaker-2: Yeah. I mean, big picture, I think if they're under fueling, right, if their fueling system is not working for them, really involving a dietitian in the picture, like really involving someone else that's specialized in like helping them figure out how can they best fuel their body to perform. Because I think in the end of the day, like that person can really be like, this is what big picture your body needs to give them that framework or to give them just that like, hey, I'm the expert and this is what I would recommend. so that they don't have to be the ones trying to constantly figure it out and constantly think of like, what's right or what's wrong, especially with like all of the messaging on social media, even like the what I eat in a day as an athlete post, like that's maybe works for you and that's great, right? But that doesn't mean it's gonna work for every other athlete that sees it. And I think there can be lot of harm because it's like, well, I should eat like that, but that might not be what's gonna help them perform. And so I think involving a dietician in the picture is really effective as sports dietician to really navigate that. And then I also think really working with them to break down Where did that message come from? Where did we learn that we had to either do this or eat this thing or go about it in this way? What were some the messages, whether it's from family or coaches growing up and what's reinforced that to kind of see how do we build a healthier relationship with it? How do we view our body as this machine that's working for us and we have to treat well for it to work well? If we don't put gas in the tank, if we don't get the oil change, if we don't do these things, the car's not gonna function well, it's not going to drive. And yeah, we're not a machine, but it's the same kind of logic if we have to be treating ourselves well and taking care of our body and our mind, if we're going to be performing and really trying to break that down and see that as like the buy-in of building a healthier relationship with your body and your fueling and your nutrition is going to help you perform more consistently because we're removing some of the other variables or making it more stable. We're finding more control in that situation because we're not having to think so much about it because we develop a system that actually works for you. and leaves you maybe doubting less what your appearance looks like or is my performance even tied to my appearance, right? speaker-1: Mm hmm. Yeah. And it's also crazy because, you know, we were friends with a lot of different sports and, know, you'd see them from freshman year to senior year. And it's like they're a completely different person now. And it's like that is a big change to kind of look in the mirror every day and be like, ⁓ I look I look different now. You know what mean? Or like looking back at photos. And I feel like that can kind of get in your head a little bit. mean, I remember my freshman year. I mean, we were. working out like no other. was it was like go, go, go. Yeah. Especially like fall season when we were kind of preparing for our like big spring season for freshman year. And, you know, I had never really experienced anything like that. And I kind of needed to, you know, learn what was going to fuel my body, because it was at a point where I was like, holy cow, like, this is a lot. ⁓ I mean, I remember I think I gained 11 pounds. my freshman year and I think it was I hope I hope it was pure muscle. I think it was pure muscle. It was just like speaker-0: See, I lost 10 pounds my freshman year, which was crazy. But then I gained it all back sophomore year because I think I was probably under fueling freshman year. speaker-1: So it's like it's learning how to treat your body almost because especially that freshman year because you have never experienced anything like that and you're you've never been in that kind of setting and so yeah I always go back to that and I was it's different for everybody. speaker-2: I think that's such a good point though, because even like in season, post season, know, your like rest time, it's like your movement may be wildly different. And yes, it may not change my wildly what you eat. probably still need a consistent amount with that. But it's like all of those changes, right, can just be really confusing of, you know, how, how do I fuel my body through this? speaker-1: Yeah, luckily I feel like universities have gotten a lot better in kind of having those resources now with nutrition and things like that. Like we always had people around and we were we always had that fridge stocked. was that was the goal. It was always stocked. That was great to have and it a really good resource. speaker-0: one other thing again, tying it back to the post college ⁓ life too. It's again, it's kind of the same thing of once you get out of college and you start to see your body change because you're not working out as intensely all the time as you used to. And sometimes people might struggle with that too. Like I've seen my muscle mass and my muscle tone. Decrease and all these things and you start getting in your head about that when you thought that maybe you were past all of your body image issues, so speaker-1: Thank speaker-0: Again, I think it kind of ties back to just that acceptance, right? Like you're not in the same stage that you were four years ago. You're also not the same age that you were four years ago. You're not at your peak performance like you were saying. ⁓ And, you know, I think if there is an issue too, it's great to have someone like you again to talk to post college. Again, if you're having these struggles with, I don't look like I used to. back when I competed. speaker-2: Because you're redefining your relationship with your body with movement, right? Like, I don't move and train in the same way I did in college, and I'm not supposed to, right? But like, even just the concept of body image and like hitting that like, ⁓ I thought I was in a good space with it. And I think, like all of these things are fluid and they fluctuate, especially when we're entering different phases of our life, where maybe our movement starts to look different or our day to day looks different. like, recognizing that those are natural challenge points and transition points. where even if we've done a lot of work, we may just need that little bit of extra support as we navigate it because there are a lot of changes happening and those changes are normal, right? There's nothing wrong with you because your body is changing and sometimes, but it's recognizing that it's okay to have some extra support so that that change doesn't actually get in our head and we start seeing things even worse, right? Because we look in the mirror and we could see things wildly different than they actually are because we're so focused on it. And so having that support just to make those transitions is huge. speaker-1: Yeah, I feel like sometimes you can get in the habit of like picking out the smallest of things and you'll like ask a friend if they see the same things and they're like, what are you talking about? But yeah, it's funny, you know, when we were competitive athletes, I feel like at that time I was like, ⁓ I'm too muscular. And now I'm like, no, no, I really want that muscle back. Like, why was I complaining about that? So, but it is different. mean, you we're sitting at a computer for eight hours a day now. It's not, you're not training for four hours straight outside. Like you're gonna, you're gonna look different, but that is something that it is helpful to have people like you to accept that, you know, at the end of the day. Other thing I wanted to talk about, I saw that you're going to be at a mental health summit in Cape Cod. That is so cool. Can you tell us a little bit about that? speaker-2: Yeah, so it's, think, six of us and we're going to do like a panel style where we all talk for about like 10 to 15 minutes on different just areas in which athletes kind of struggle with either mental health or mental performance and the areas that maybe aren't talked about enough, like the identity, the injury piece and all the challenges that athletes are facing. like there'll be coaches, athletes, all different types of people, their families, parents, just to really help like spread the awareness, right? Trying to reduce the stigma around mental health and in athletics, but also just normalize, like these are things that we all go through. We all go through these ups and downs. Like how do we just make sure everyone is feeling mentally well, right? Like in a good space to perform, to function in their life, to take care of themselves. And really trying to just talk about, you know, our experiences working in the, in the field, but also just giving people maybe ideas or supports to navigate it. Because I think there's just so many different challenges, especially for like, you know, in that area, there's a lot of high school athletes and it's like, you might get recruited, all these pressures. And kind of normalizing like, let's start this conversation now. So when you do go to college, when you do enter these different transitions, these are OK to need and want support around, and let's start that sooner than later. So really trying to just spread that awareness and really trying to make that shift in the culture around mental health and athletics. speaker-1: That's awesome. That'll be so cool. speaker-0: Yeah, we'll keep an eye out for it for sure. Yeah. But yeah, that's kind of like why we wanted to start this podcast, too, of we just wanted to start, you know, conversation around a bunch of different, you know, mental performance, mental health topics for people going into college or people just starting college or people coming out of college. ⁓ So that, you know, they just have something that they can reference to and start thinking about rather than, you know, having to deal with an issue once it already comes up. you can start preparing for certain techniques or thinking about different things. ⁓ Yeah, just starting that conversation and having that discussion and hopefully more and more people will ⁓ begin to embrace it too. speaker-1: Yeah. And like you said, the earlier the start, the better you're going to be. know, like if you can if you can actually like hone mental skills as, know, like a teenager, I just. Yeah, feel like your life is going to be exponentially not easier, but just, you know, manageable when when you get into those high pressure situations in college or, you know, even if you're an elite pro athlete or something, I think that's. speaker-0: I wish I could have. speaker-1: So, so important. yeah, yeah. I wish I went to a sports psychologist when I was, when I was in juniors, but here we are. We got through it. ⁓ speaker-2: more malleable. Like it can learn things so much quicker when we're younger and it's like the older you get it's harder to implement these things and it's like the sooner you start the better. speaker-1: Yep, will, best advice you can give. speaker-2: Honestly. speaker-0: ⁓ I'm curious really quick. So obviously you said you were really interested in sports psychology when you were playing field hockey and in college specifically like is there anything that surprised you now that you've been in the field for you know, Probably 10 plus years at this point, right? Like you're very very well versed. Is there something that you know surprised you that you thought you know when you were just getting into it or when you were a college athlete or a junior athlete that ⁓ you now know, and you used to think differently before about just mental health and sports psychology. speaker-2: Yeah. I think one of the biggest things that kind of surprises me or surprised me back then is like even just the concept of like nerves and excitement, right? Like those physiological states in our body are pretty much identical. Like that was something for me. If I was nervous before something, I was like, I'm nervous. This is the catastrophe. Like I'm not going to play well. Like it was the world. And I think it took a long time like really learning that in school and like seeing it even in practice to kind of be like, okay, they actually are. are so, similar and the way we view it and the way we frame it in our brain, like the story we tell ourselves in a lot of areas of our life, it really does become what we start to adopt and what becomes that reality. And I think I always knew that and I was always told that, but to really see over the time in my career of like this narrative, the story we attach to what we are going through is such a big part of our experience of it and what actually does happen. And I think that's a really cool thing because it ties into that like level of kind of manifestation to some degree. And it's just kind of cool to see like how that really plays out in sports because if I was nervous, I would have been like, I'm nervous I'm going to fail. And that was the honest truth for me. And I was like, it's such a fact at that point. It's a fact that I'm going to play well. And I think just to really see like, no, that's spiraling and that's not actually right. speaker-1: Yeah, it's like, let's just take a step back. speaker-2: Like, let's not go to worst case scenario. speaker-1: It's not the end of the world. I promise if you miss this ball, the world will not end. It's going to be OK. But it's hard. It's hard to teach somebody that sometimes, you know, especially when when sport is their biggest priority in life. ⁓ And I think that's where some people get stuck. But ⁓ yeah, we really appreciate you kind of going through all that stuff. That was really fun and really fun to listen to. speaker-2: Thanks for having me, this was awesome. speaker-0: Can you please let us and our listeners know where we can find you on social media so they can check out your rockin social media posts that we were admiring earlier? speaker-2: Yes, gosh you guys are the best. Yeah, so my Instagram is Olivia Papakoury Ghost. just my name. ⁓ You can go on my website as well. It's the same thing oliviapapakouryghost.com but you know feel free to reach out and connect. I'm always happy to connect and answer questions. Always happy to help and just kind of give some some feedback if needed.