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#66 - Mastering Legal Marketing with Olivia Bradbury · Sharp Strategies Sweet Success

• 0:00
  That's probably like the main tip that I would have for anyone
• 0:03
  starting out in
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: marketing is consistency and good writing.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: So matters more than ever.
• 0:08
  And today when so much content is AI generated and a lot of it
• 0:12
  kind of sounds the
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  same and the firms that stand out today are the ones that show
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  up consistently and
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  SPEAKER_01: they sound real.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Sharp Strategies, Sweet Success.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Hello everyone and welcome.
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  SPEAKER_00: You are listening to Sharp Strategies, Sweet Success.
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  SPEAKER_00: I am your host, Tiffany Swidensky.
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  SPEAKER_00: And today I'm talking to Olivia Bradbury.
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  Olivia Bradbury is a part of my mastermind group on Substack
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  and also she's been
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  SPEAKER_00: participating for a little over a year now.
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  And she's also a fractional CMO and she's worked for several
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  law firms out in the
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  SPEAKER_00: Norfolk,
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  SPEAKER_00: Southern Virginia area,
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  SPEAKER_00: which I really haven't done much work in myself.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I'm a little bit unfamiliar.
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  SPEAKER_00: She's currently working for Brian Gillette,
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  SPEAKER_00: Wayne Holcomb,
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  SPEAKER_00: and a few other law firms I'll let her mention.
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  SPEAKER_00: And she's also the former marketing director for Edry Pfeiffer,
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  SPEAKER_00: who if you have done law firm marketing here in Virginia,
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  SPEAKER_00: you might've heard Edry's name.
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  SPEAKER_00: She's done some really great stuff over the years.
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  So I'm really excited to have Olivia on the show and talk
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  marketing with her.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to let Olivia finish out her introduction.
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  SPEAKER_01: All right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, my name is Olivia Bradbury.
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  SPEAKER_01: I actually, I got into legal marketing by accident, believe it or not.
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  My first job was in skincare marketing and I just,
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  I hated it from the get-go.
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  So I randomly started applying for marketing jobs to try to
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  find something else to
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  SPEAKER_01: figure out like what I really wanted to do.
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  SPEAKER_01: I saw...
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  The post for a job that looked for somebody to market to law
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  firms down there in
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  SPEAKER_01: the Virginia Beach area.
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  SPEAKER_01: We had just moved there and I thought it sounded interesting right away.
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  So I kind of hopped right into it and I've been in marketing
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  for about 10 years
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  SPEAKER_01: now,
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  SPEAKER_01: believe it or not.
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  SPEAKER_01: And once I found the legal space,
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  SPEAKER_01: I just realized I wanted to stay in it,
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  SPEAKER_01: even though I never expected to be here.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of cool.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well,
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  SPEAKER_00: I,
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  SPEAKER_00: my first question,
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  SPEAKER_00: just because I've always kind of envied product marketers,
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  SPEAKER_00: cause it's such a different space from legal marketing.
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  SPEAKER_00: Can you tell me like why you didn't like skincare?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like, why'd you choose to make that leap?
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  SPEAKER_01: I think it's more of a personality thing for me.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm not a girly girl, if that makes sense.
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  I'm not the kind of person who was in awe of all kinds of
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  skincare products,
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  SPEAKER_01: some hair products,
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  SPEAKER_01: but I've never been that kind of person.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't an area of big interest for me.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I found it a little hard to relate to both the consumer,
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  SPEAKER_01: but also everybody trying to sell it,
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  SPEAKER_01: if that makes sense.
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  And then we can go into the specifics of that particular work
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  environment,
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  SPEAKER_01: not being very healthy and stuff like that,
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  SPEAKER_01: but also kind of contributed,
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  SPEAKER_01: but just mainly not really my interest.
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  SPEAKER_01: So...
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, marketing is so varied depending on what industry you're in.
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  And then marketing for an agency is very different than
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  marketing for a small
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  SPEAKER_00: business,
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  SPEAKER_00: any kind of small business.
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  And you,
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  it tends to become almost like a factory,
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  a marketing factory almost.
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  Cause you're making creatives and you're making like one type
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  of creative again and
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  SPEAKER_00: again for a different type of clients.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it all starts to blend together.
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  SPEAKER_00: And from the law firm's perspective,
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  SPEAKER_00: each website is brand new and full of possibilities,
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  SPEAKER_00: but for the web developer,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's probably like the 150th law firm website they've made.
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  SPEAKER_00: And they all just kind of look at the same, lose a bit of luster.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if your former work experience was exactly like that,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I definitely relate because it's tough.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's tough when you're in like that factory of marketing for sure.
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  no definitely I mean that was part of what I enjoyed getting
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  into the legal
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  marketing especially working with like different kinds of firms
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  too was how
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  different it actually is when you work with different practice
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  areas because you
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  can go so many different ways and there's always something to
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  learn it never gets
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  boring you know so even when you start feeling like you you
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  know how something
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  works you don't so you kind of just got to keep learning as you
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  go as well but
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  SPEAKER_01: that's what keeps it interesting at least for me so so well
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  SPEAKER_00: If you don't mind sharing, what kind of projects are you working on now?
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  Or what are the big questions you're rattling around in your
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  head when it comes to
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  SPEAKER_00: marketing and,
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  SPEAKER_00: and what you're doing with your firms?
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  So I'd say one of my favorite projects that I'm working on
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  right now is actually a
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  SPEAKER_01: printed referral newsletter for one of my firms.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it sounds kind of old school-y,
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  SPEAKER_01: but we've had so much fun with it because people actually read it,
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  SPEAKER_01: they respond to it,
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  SPEAKER_01: they talk about it,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is rare.
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  Like for anybody who's done a print newsletter knows it's
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  notoriously hard to track
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  SPEAKER_01: and all that stuff.
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  SPEAKER_01: But ever since we started doing this one, there's been so much response.
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  And I think it's because we spend a lot of time thinking about
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  what would actually
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  be useful or interesting for the reader instead of just kind of
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  promoting the firm
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  and doing all this kind of cookie cutter articles and stuff
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  that nobody really
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  SPEAKER_01: cares about.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then recently,
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  SPEAKER_01: because we've been getting all this interaction,
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  we started doing trackable QR codes so that we could actually
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  like go in and see
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  SPEAKER_01: like how much are people interacting with this.
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  So that's going to be really interesting to see how that kind
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  of grows because we
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  SPEAKER_01: just implemented that.
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  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, that's definitely exciting.
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  And how often are you guys doing,
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  or how often are you,
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  you said it was monthly,
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  I guess.
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  SPEAKER_00: This one's monthly, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
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  Are you guys also doing a separate print newsletter for your
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  client audience?
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  SPEAKER_00: So currently for that firm, no.
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  They started with only doing a printed newsletter for like past
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  former clients in thousands.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that was expensive.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, it's hard to track.
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  SPEAKER_01: They couldn't really see anything from it.
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  SPEAKER_01: So they kind of just, they went to, I remember right.
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  SPEAKER_01: This was a couple of years ago.
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  SPEAKER_01: They went to quarterly, I think.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then kind of just ended up scrapping it all together.
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  SPEAKER_01: But we've been talking about it a little bit.
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  SPEAKER_01: If we're going to bring something back,
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  whether that be a postcard or something that can kind of pop
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  into people's
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  SPEAKER_01: mailboxes as well,
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  SPEAKER_01: not just an email inbox.
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  But the referral newsletter has been where we've been putting
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  most of our effort
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  SPEAKER_01: into because that one's been fun.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And when it comes to nurture marketing,
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  SPEAKER_00: referral marketing,
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  SPEAKER_00: what's,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think what's most important isn't like the,
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  what it's more of like how consistent we are about sending it
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  and touching base
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  SPEAKER_00: with our referral sources for sure.
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  So doing anything on a regular basis is they're like doing
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  anything consistent
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  SPEAKER_00: basis is like super,
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  SPEAKER_00: super great and super important.
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  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't agree more.
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  That's probably like the main tip that I would have for anyone
• 7:19
  starting out in
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: marketing is consistency and good writing.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it matters more than ever.
• 7:25
  And today when so much content is AI generated and a lot of it
• 7:28
  kind of sounds the
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: same,
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  the firms that stand out today are the ones that show up
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  consistently and they
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  SPEAKER_01: sound real.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
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  Be consistent and the human element is becoming more valuable
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  too,
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  not less.
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  SPEAKER_01: At least that's my input on it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh,
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  and it's so funny because there's still like this kind of
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  educational divide
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  SPEAKER_00: between people who...
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  Use AI daily and people who don't use AI that often and people
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  who don't use AI
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  SPEAKER_00: that often,
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  SPEAKER_00: or maybe haven't done writing too often.
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  They just overestimate how well chat GPT or LLMs can put
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  together content and do good.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's still out of reach for a lot of these AI tools.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not anti-AI at all.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think it's an awesome tool to use for certain things.
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  You just can't use it as a replacement for real thinking and
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  someone's real voice.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_00: there are a lot of fun things you can do with it,
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  SPEAKER_00: but the copywriting aspect of it,
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  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking about it,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: it requires understanding emotion.
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  It requires like understanding the client's journey and what
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  they're probably going through.
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  SPEAKER_00: And you could,
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  SPEAKER_00: sure,
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  SPEAKER_00: you could probably like input all of that into a GPT,
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  SPEAKER_00: but like it still is very important.
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, kind of predictable, I guess is the way I want to put it.
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  And a lot of the first ideas it comes up with are ideas like a
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  human would have
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  SPEAKER_00: considered and then scrapped for various different reasons.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I definitely agree.
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  SPEAKER_01: But it is a helpful tool.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: So as a fractional CMO,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I'm just curious,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  what are the things like you struggle with when it comes to
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  working with your law
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  SPEAKER_00: firms?
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  Like,
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  what are the issues that you're trying to,
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  I guess,
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  brew or get past?
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  SPEAKER_01: I think it kind of depends on the firm itself,
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  SPEAKER_01: but some attorneys,
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  SPEAKER_01: because they are highly educated and
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  SPEAKER_01: They do what they do because they're good at it,
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  SPEAKER_01: have a hard time letting go of some control when it comes to marketing.
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  So they like to try to hold a very firm grasp over anything
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  marketing related and
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  SPEAKER_01: have some,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's hard for them,
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  for some of them at least to let go a little bit and to trust
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  that other people
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  SPEAKER_01: might know better,
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  SPEAKER_01: if that makes sense.
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  SPEAKER_01: I always try.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't work with too many law firms at once.
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  SPEAKER_01: I get to know my clients very well.
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  SPEAKER_01: So they put trust in me after a while,
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  but it takes some time to get to that point too of being
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  trusted enough for them to
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  SPEAKER_01: kind of let go.
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  SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
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  that's probably been my biggest challenge because obviously I
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  don't want them to be
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  SPEAKER_01: completely hands-off.
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  SPEAKER_01: I need lots and lots of input from them as well.
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  SPEAKER_01: I just need them to trust me when I make a suggestion or recommendation.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure you've experienced that too.
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  Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
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  That's always a challenge because you have to have enough
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  authority that it kind of
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  SPEAKER_00: resonates,
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  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
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  SPEAKER_00: with the attorneys.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like,
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  SPEAKER_00: you have to be able to stand and say,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: we're doing this because of this and it's going to work because of this.
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  SPEAKER_00: And just to have a bit of fearlessness when approaching them because...
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  SPEAKER_00: You're very much right.
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  And I mean,
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  being devil's advocate for the business owners,
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  but they are business owners.
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  And that's happened when you let things go with your business
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  and marketing included.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, it's like you say, it's their business.
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  SPEAKER_01: They can run it however they want.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I totally get it.
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  If they've put their trust in the wrong person before,
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  that's hard to change or let go.
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  SPEAKER_01: I totally get it.
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  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time,
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  you can't really get anywhere unless you let somebody help you
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  who know what
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  SPEAKER_01: they're doing.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's tricky.
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  That's the reason there are fractional CMOs and why it's kind
• 11:14
  of a growing job
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  SPEAKER_00: title,
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  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
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  or growing like because you have to have like a certain high
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  level skill to be able
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  SPEAKER_00: to create and orchestrate marketing plans for a business.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not like a simple job, like it's not a simple feat.
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  SPEAKER_00: And just like anything that requires like some kind of specialist skill,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  all business owners learn it's better to outsource that to
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  somebody who knows what
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  SPEAKER_00: they're doing.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And when firms contact me,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's usually like,
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  SPEAKER_00: and all of them want to dabble,
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  SPEAKER_00: all of them want to dabble in marketing.
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  But the ones that the law firms that I end up working with
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  contact me and just say
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm tired of trying to manage this.
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  I want somebody to help me lead the team and keep the,
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  keep the projects moving forward.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's, for me, that's a good client to work with.
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  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times the meddling,
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  I guess I would say in the marketing usually comes in
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  short-term bursts and the
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  SPEAKER_00: The longer you can keep them happy,
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  SPEAKER_00: as long as the numbers are going up,
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  SPEAKER_00: quite a few of them are just happy to throw up their hands and say,
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  SPEAKER_00: you do it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: But it's tough because,
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: and I was talking with,
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  SPEAKER_00: and maybe you've had to go through this,
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  SPEAKER_00: but one of my newest clients,
• 12:33
  their team is really involved with like the marketing planning
• 12:36
  and marketing
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  SPEAKER_00: process.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: And they're giving input on trade names, logos, designs, and
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  And I told the owners,
• 12:45
  I'm like,
• 12:46
  I really,
• 12:46
  it's not that they're giving input on my work.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's just that everyone's participating in the brainstorming process.
• 12:53
  And I told the owners,
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  like,
• 12:55
  look,
• 12:55
  we have to like,
• 12:56
  keep in mind that their feedback comes from
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: I guess like not a ton of experience, you know, they're not marketers.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's their personal experiences.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're their personal experiences with marketing.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're not designers.
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  There,
• 13:11
  there are things that,
• 13:13
  you know,
• 13:13
  every group is susceptible to group think.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of group think going on in small teams.
• 13:19
  And I point to the firms and big businesses that are executing
• 13:24
  a lot of marketing.
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  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of them, they really silo things.
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  SPEAKER_00: These decisions are made by these team of people.
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  SPEAKER_00: These decisions are made by these teams of people.
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  SPEAKER_00: And when it comes to marketing,
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  SPEAKER_00: like when you siloed the decision-making within like a department,
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  SPEAKER_00: as opposed to like an entire team,
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  SPEAKER_00: if you try to use that flat structure,
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  You just end up with like a lot of design by committee and
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  group think and things
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: that you generally would want to avoid in marketing.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so I feel like I just kind of went off on a rant there, but no, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's one problem you can have when the team is too involved.
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  SPEAKER_01: Another problem we can have is when the team doesn't want to be involved.
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  SPEAKER_01: Cause I mean, if you're working remotely.
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  SPEAKER_01: Specifically remotely,
• 14:09
  it's tricky sometimes because you do need input from your
• 14:12
  intake specialists and
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: your front desk people,
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  the people who are actually dealing with these clients day to
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  day to know what
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  SPEAKER_01: problems are they facing.
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  I need to know these things to create certain marketing
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  materials or like know what to do.
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  SPEAKER_01: And when they're not being responsive over email or phone call,
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  SPEAKER_01: whatever it is,
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  SPEAKER_01: because they're just not interested,
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: they don't think that's part of their job,
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  SPEAKER_01: that makes it really difficult as well.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I could be on...
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Opposite ends of the spectrum there too.
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  SPEAKER_00: When it comes to intake,
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  the issue I buck up against frequently is we don't document
• 14:43
  leads unless they're
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: qualified leads.
• 14:46
  And essentially the firm is saying like,
• 14:47
  we don't document like junk leads.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the shorthand.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: And the issue I always have there,
• 14:54
  and it's usually like an education process because I have to
• 14:56
  convince the owner and
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: then the owner and myself have to take this down in the intake team.
• 15:02
  But it's important to document all leads because you don't know
• 15:07
  which leads are
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: qualified or not unless you have documentation.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: And when that is missing, we're just guessing.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: We just assume we're documenting all qualified leads when we don't know.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: when it comes to intake teams,
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: part of this issue there is they've been told it's okay.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: the law firm owners,
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: they're just like,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: if it's a bullshit lead,
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: you don't have to put it in the system.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: They say that, you know, and...
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:34
  when they say that it becomes policy and then we just have
• 15:37
  spotty documentation and
• 15:38
  it makes a whole bunch of things more difficult and it makes it
• 15:41
  harder to judge the
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: marketing.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, but yeah.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: So like how,
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: speaking of intake and something I ended up doing a lot,
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: how are you working with the intake teams currently?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Is it just like kind of an informal relationship?
• 15:59
  Are you meeting with them on a regular basis or like somewhere
• 16:02
  in between?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: It kind of depends firm to firm.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: For one firm, they tend to kind of hop on the calls.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: I have a weekly check-in with the attorney,
• 16:13
  so they tend to hop on the calls or they'll be on the same
• 16:17
  email threads or
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: whatever we have going on.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: But if there is hardly any contact with the intake team, I have trouble.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: I have trouble doing what I need to do.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then the email's got to be rerouted through like the attorney.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a whole thing.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like with one specific firm that I used to work with,
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: that was,
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't get these people to like answer an email to save my life.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: It was definitely challenging.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then like,
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: I would have to text the attorney and be like,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: I need the answer to this question.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: And like, they would have to ask the answer.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was a whole thing.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't feel the need to have a weekly meeting.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: More often than not, to have a weekly meeting with intake staff.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: More like, update me if anything's going on.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then they hop on calls every now and then.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: It depends on what's going on.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: I might do training with an intake team,
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: particularly if we're getting started with like a new intake dashboard,
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: but like,
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't meet with them weekly either.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's usually like you said,
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: it's clustered into one meeting,
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: but you know,
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: that connection is so vital.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not so unfortunate that intake is just so undervalued at the
• 17:21
  every law absolutely yeah it's and it's it's so important voice
• 17:25
  that somebody hears
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: what's so important and most people don't even realize it
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: I did like a super small,
• 17:33
  like quote unquote case study last week where I waited until
• 17:37
  about lunchtime and I
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: called and it wasn't a personal injury firm.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: It was a different practice area.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I went to Google business,
• 17:45
  Googled the practice area and called the top 12 attorneys in
• 17:49
  Google business.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: And this was during like noon.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: And you want to guess how many times I got sent to voicemail?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, at least half.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Am I close?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's more than half.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's not good.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Out of 12 law firms, I was sent to voicemail 11 times.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't believe it.
• 18:13
  And like,
• 18:13
  this was a practice area where they're prone to getting a lot
• 18:17
  of calls.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you don't have a call,
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: like an answering service,
• 18:23
  at least if like everybody in the staff is going to lunch at
• 18:25
  the same time,
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like that would be a very basic thing to have.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: You would assume, but none of these firms had that.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of them, it wasn't even a call tree.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: It was just like, hi, you called us.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: You're outside of regular business hours.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: Please leave a voice message.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: At least like very small firms or...
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, some of them were very big firms with a couple hundred reviews.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: And well,
• 18:47
  the one firm that didn't route me directly to voicemail was
• 18:53
  also a personal injury
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: firm.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a firm that had like
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: of practice areas.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so the personal injury firm,
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: the half and half personal injury firm,
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: they picked up,
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: they answered,
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: and they did like an intake and said they would call back.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: But that was it.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I had a text, email, phone call.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I posed as like a qualified lead as much as I could,
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: but I didn't leave any voicemails because who leaves voicemails?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Do you ever leave voicemail when you call a business out of curiosity?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: No, very rarely.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Very rarely.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: If I do, I'm still going to call them back again.
• 19:30
  I like,
• 19:31
  I'll just leave the voicemail just to like,
• 19:33
  as a double safe thing,
• 19:35
  maybe.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, but it's rare.
• 19:36
  In my personal experience,
• 19:38
  like I,
• 19:39
  if I call a business and leave a voicemail,
• 19:42
  It's very seldom I get a call back and I calling my
• 19:45
  dermatologist out or my son's
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: dermatologist rather.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: They told me in the office, like, call us.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: And if you leave a voicemail, you'll hear back from us in 24 hours.
• 19:55
  And a few weeks later I called and left a voicemail and I did
• 19:58
  not hear back in 24 hours.
• 20:00
  And it was actually like three or four weeks before I got a
• 20:03
  call back and thank God
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: it wasn't important.
• 20:07
  So there's a reason people don't trust voicemail because most
• 20:11
  businesses are
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: freaking terrible about following up.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: Even like hospitals,
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: like I I've had two kids,
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: so I've had to deal with the hospitals a fair bit.
• 20:21
  And even like professional businesses where you would expect
• 20:25
  the follow-up to be
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: taken seriously,
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: it's just not taken seriously.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And people wonder why like their own voicemail systems don't really work.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: No, I couldn't agree more.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Voicemail is not great.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely wouldn't recommend that.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: So what are you like looking at in 2026?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 20:46
  or is there something that's like top of mind that you're
• 20:49
  trying to figure out or
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: they're working on or want to try?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just curious.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm interested in exploring some more AI tools.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Speaking of AI.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: But finding ways to kind of integrate,
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: like integrate that in a way where it still works,
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: where you still sound human and all that good stuff.
• 21:09
  Cause like one thing that I've been struggling with a lot with
• 21:12
  not all of the firms
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: that I work with,
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of them is getting attorneys on video.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: That one is really tricky and like it's so good.
• 21:22
  It's such good content when you get them to like sound genuine
• 21:26
  and whatever else on
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: video,
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you struck gold when you get one of those videos.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: So as you know,
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: there are many AI tools that do these like avatar talking video,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: but they all kind of look fake,
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 21:41
  Or at least most of them,
• 21:42
  there are very few that I've found that resemble a human being.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm hoping maybe in 2026,
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: we can find something that would be good enough,
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: at least to kind of pass off as a genuine human being,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: because that would seriously change the game,
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: not only because the attorneys have...
• 21:59
  At least the ones I work with are so busy all the time and they
• 22:02
  don't view video
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: shooting as a priority.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that would be one thing that'd be really cool if I could find that.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't know.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have any tips for me there?
• 22:10
  Have you found anything that might work like that doesn't cost
• 22:13
  an arm and a leg?
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: as far as like AI video tools,
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Hey Jen is pretty common and accessible for most people.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: But they, it's not perfect.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's you have to record like 10 to 20 hours of content.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: To create an application to begin with.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, for obvious reason, but God.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Either way,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: you still have to corner an attorney,
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: a busy attorney and try to get like 20 hours of video from them.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 22:44
  But like the stuff that worked best for me is like trying to
• 22:47
  get them to set aside
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: like a big block,
• 22:49
  like an hour or two hours in like a dedicated room for video
• 22:54
  editing or a dedicated
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: space,
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: distracted,
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: and to just have the scripts ready.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, what's...
• 23:02
  really worked good is just is prompting them and having them
• 23:05
  tell a story like tell
• 23:08
  me a story about the most difficult case you worked on or a
• 23:12
  client you'll never
• 23:13
  forget or just questions that you can tease out details where
• 23:20
  they can't just like
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: answer it with a canned response or a chat gpt answer
• 23:26
  and record content in chunks if they can do it but i'll be
• 23:30
  honest like for my bad
• 23:32
  boy attorneys who won't record video for me who say they will
• 23:37
  but won't i'm not
• 23:38
  calling actually i don't really think i'm having everyone has
• 23:42
  gotten me some amount
• 23:43
  of video this year so i'm not calling out anyone specific and i
• 23:47
  know everyone's but
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: they're yeah i
• 23:51
  I'm at the point if I start working with a law firm and I want
• 23:56
  them to do video and
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: they won't do it,
• 23:58
  I start immediately talking with them about hiring a
• 24:01
  spokesperson of some kind.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good idea, actually.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: I hadn't really thought about that.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: and it's almost a veiled threat because it's like,
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: if you don't record videos for your brand,
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: I will get somebody to do it.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Smart.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't executed on this yet because I haven't had to,
• 24:21
  but I know that there are agencies out there now for social
• 24:25
  media creators who
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: probably for a very reasonable price,
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: you can hire a creator who's
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: good on camera,
• 24:35
  good working with the camera understands a little what makes a
• 24:38
  good ad or video and
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: we're working with them.
• 24:42
  And that's my thoughts to a point where I'm just like sick of
• 24:46
  trying to get the
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: videos out of the law for remote.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, that's great.
• 24:51
  I just feel like it won't have the same authority still because
• 24:53
  it's not the main
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: attorney,
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: especially if the firm is named after this attorney,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: like that's who you want to see as a potential client.
• 25:01
  Like,
• 25:02
  if I'm looking to hire you,
• 25:03
  I want to see you talking about this stuff,
• 25:05
  right?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: Not whoever this other person is.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: I spoke with a law firm that used to have a spokesperson, right?
• 25:14
  They did billboards and they had like a dedicated spokesperson
• 25:17
  that they hired
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: through an agency.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And the issue there is that spokesperson passed away.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, no.
• 25:25
  And the local community so strongly associated that
• 25:29
  spokesperson with the law firm brand.
• 25:32
  Like basically when they lost him,
• 25:34
  God rest his soul,
• 25:36
  they basically were starting over.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I mean, that's the risk with any individual.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like they can become a star of your brand in my view,
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: because companies have used spokespeople for forever.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: You just, you have to have somebody who is,
• 25:52
  can continually show up and help you develop a presence because
• 25:56
  you're right.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the law firm owner.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's a wild card that a person could be fired.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: That person could just stop showing up to work or stop making videos and
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: They could die or something like that.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's a risk, unfortunately.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: But for the attorneys who,
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 26:12
  if you're a business and you want to do video and you want to
• 26:16
  get cases through
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: video,
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:18
  your options are record them yourself or have somebody else do
• 26:22
  it for you.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: And one route takes up a lot of your time.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: The other route is risky.
• 26:27
  So it's,
• 26:28
  I haven't found a third alternative yet other than AI video,
• 26:32
  which,
• 26:33
  nah.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess that's my thoughts.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway,
• 26:37
  it's always nice when you have an attorney that really enjoys
• 26:40
  making videos and
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: that's like comfortable on camera.
• 26:42
  It doesn't happen very often,
• 26:43
  but like when I do find one of those,
• 26:45
  I'm always excited.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: And some of them really blow me away.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: They're just proactive and they're already doing it.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: I follow a few attorneys on TikTok who just make content every day.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it makes me feel bad.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Cause like I'm hard, I'm bad enough about just like taking pictures.
• 27:01
  Like when I go places,
• 27:03
  I was thinking today,
• 27:03
  I kind of want those meta glasses.
• 27:05
  Cause they'd always be recording and it'd be so convenient for
• 27:08
  somebody like me who
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: just kind of is not a photographer.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you've seen those.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Those are pretty, pretty rad.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I guess we're coming up kind of close to the end of the episode.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a few questions I always hit people with.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: So Olivia,
• 27:25
  is there anything that we didn't end up talking about that you
• 27:28
  wanted to go over
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: today?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think we covered most things.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: That was easy.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: That was easy.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now you're going to make me think of another question.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, I'm not going to let you off.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: I thought you said I wasn't on trial.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's just, it's so weird.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to give you a softball.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: What's your favorite tool that you're using right now?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like thing you use every day and you just couldn't live without.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always looking for ideas.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this one is way too basic.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: So this is not going to give you an idea, but Canva.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: I use Canva with like everything all the time.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's just the simplest, easiest thing.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I, that's it.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: I used to be like married to Photoshop and a purist about it too.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: So you're like, ah, Canva, I can make things in Photoshop.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: But like, it's so easy.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many templates.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: I love it too.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 28:24
  it's a marketing tool and you can do so much with it that I'm
• 28:27
  just like now kind of
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: discovering like document design.
• 28:31
  I think they're starting to like get into like form building
• 28:34
  and automations and stuff.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's very late.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: They also have an AI tool built into Canva now.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: I do not recommend using it.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: It is not very smart.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just say that.
• 28:46
  I spent like 15 minutes trying to undo something that I used
• 28:50
  this AI tool for.
• 28:51
  And the AI assistant,
• 28:54
  I think they call it the Canva AI assistant or something.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, explain what you wanted to do, right?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of like you would with Gemini or ChatGQT or whatever, right?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:04
  And yeah,
• 29:05
  it'll spit something out that something's probably not going to
• 29:08
  be what you want.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: So they're not there yet.
• 29:12
  That's been my experience with the kind of disappointing to
• 29:15
  hear it hasn't gotten
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: better,
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: but I hadn't,
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think there was actually,
• 29:21
  I was trying to get it to generate something kind of funny for
• 29:24
  as a request,
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: like a client request.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I just couldn't get it to do something so simple,
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: like remove a background or remove a thing from the background.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like, okay, I'm spending so much time with those.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: It feels a little silly.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: I need to get back to work.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the Photoshop.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they're, they're sometimes like an AI tool.
• 29:44
  Like I rep Trello all the time as my project management tool
• 29:48
  and they're new,
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: like AI tools,
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: pretty neat.
• 29:50
  Like I can send it an email and it breaks it down into like a
• 29:53
  project card.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, and it's like a, it's like a game changer.
• 29:57
  And it just like,
• 29:58
  all of a sudden that tool just appeared in Trello and it like
• 30:01
  changed my life.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, nice.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know.
• 30:04
  And I love it when they release AI tools that are actually like
• 30:07
  super useful.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's kind of for a few in between,
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: like they're still,
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: what is it like 95% of AI projects fail or something like that?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Something like that.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: I use the free, the free trial of motion to try that out.
• 30:21
  I don't know if you've tried that yet,
• 30:23
  but you can hire like different kinds of AI systems.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: So
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: To do work for you and you can create funnels.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: You can have them answer your emails.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: You can have them do all kinds of stuff.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:33
  And I wasn't convinced enough to splurge on actually trying it
• 30:37
  out longer than the child period.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't think we're there yet.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: At least not with that.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and then tried Trello.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: But like Gmail's Gemini.
• 30:50
  And I love how I can just push a button and it's like,
• 30:53
  tell me what this email is about.
• 30:54
  Cause sometimes I get long ass emails and I'm just like,
• 30:56
  I'm not reading all that.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me what this is.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: That is so useful.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: I love that one.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: That one's really good too.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, it's pretty basic.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: Cause I could just like copy and paste the email into chat GBT.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not like earth shattering.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's an extra step though.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: It saves you an extra step.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: All right, Olivia.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for coming on to the show today.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: I chronologically, I've recorded a podcast in like a week or so.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it's nice to be back in the saddle, I guess.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: But thanks so much for coming on and being my guest.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you for having me.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you want people to go look you up and learn more about you?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: They can find me either on LinkedIn,
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: or my name is Olivia Bradbury,
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: or you can find me on oliviabradbury.card.co.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Card spelled with two R's.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: My last name is spelled like Ray Bradbury, the author of Fahrenheit 451.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: No relation, which is honestly disappointing for everybody involved.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I get that all the time.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much again.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: It was a pleasure talking with you and we will see everyone next time.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.