Latest / Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor / The magic of sleep for your brain - and ways to improve it, with Dr Jemma King

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The magic of sleep for your brain - and ways to improve it, with Dr Jemma King · Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Doctor, Jimmy King, Welcome to the podcast.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: It's been a long time coming.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: It has been a long time coming.
• 0:17
  Speaker 3: I'm glad you said that first, because I was about
• 0:20
  Speaker 3: to say we met in I think it was twenty
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: twenty three.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: You went and did something silly though, you went and
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: became a doctor.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: But you were already doctor.
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: So we met at the outside, which was PWC's massive event,
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: which was brilliant.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: They had a bike it.
• 0:36
  Speaker 4: Like well they call it woodstock for corporates.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: And it was cracking because the drugs. Yeah, that's right.
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: There was maybe I don't know twenty twenty five presenters over,
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: but I think it was five different weeks, three days
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: over five weeks, and it was it was.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: It was a yeah, it was a if it wasn't it.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: Was, it was.
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: But you did a present you did a presentation on
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: sleep there, and you know, we chatted about your background,
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: interesting pH D background, and I said I need to
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: get you on the podcast, and you're like, yeah, we'll
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: get you on the podcast. And three fucking years I
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: tried to get you.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: On the podcast and then I give an up and
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: bomb up your part.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, well, thank you for your perseverance.
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: And polite judging, no nudging. Yeah right, because I don't run.
• 1:28
  Speaker 4: I don't run my schedule, so I just get told
• 1:31
  Speaker 4: me to go what to say.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: That's pretty much like me with Penny.
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: No, actually, before we get into sleep, tell our lessons
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: about your pH d because it's a pretty interesting area.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: So it was a preemptive approach to stress, teaching emotional
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: intelligence as a buffer.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: And because I know that people.
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: Aren't very accurate about how they explain or sometimes I've
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: got little awareness about their stress status, I knew that
• 2:02
  Speaker 4: just asking people was insufficient. So I tested cortisol and
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: immune function as a proxy measure of stress, and so
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: I did it down at the Australian Special Forces at
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: two Commando in Holsworthy. So I spent two years the
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: researching sort of like immersing myself in that environment, looking
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: at how those guys dealt with stress. And because I
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: thought like if anyone knows how to deal with stress,
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: would be these guys.
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: So it was.
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: Essentially just sort of ethnographically immersing myself in trying to
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: extract the lessons that they had learned from some very
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: extreme situations and what they did well and what they
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: didn't do so well, and then condense it down, put
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: some science, some theoretical frameworks behind it, and then teach
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: it back to the younger guys coming through to try
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: and tighten that learning loop on, you know, theory, practice
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: and execution.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: And then so.
• 2:57
  Speaker 4: And then I was asked to come back and consult
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: to them for many years. And yeah, so I still
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: do stuff with defense, but yeah, it was a really interesting.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: Very very different cohort.
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: Individuals really smart, really fit, no fail kind of environment.
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: They just wanted to be better. Like it was really
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: really interesting.
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: It's like working with elite athletes in it because you
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: just tell them and if they think they're going to
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: get a performance age, they're all over it like a
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: spider monkey.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: Unlike most normal human beings.
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: Now Robert Ludlummon do you know him, he's an author
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: and he actually came up with the quote. I thought
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: it was some elite athlete come up with the cook,
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: but he came up with the quote sleep is a weapon.
• 3:43
  Speaker 5: And yeah, I know it's pretty cool.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: You should have had that in your book, but but
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: your book is all about sleep, So we're going to
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: dive into the science of sleep. I have gone through
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: your book, and it is a very compra tensive a
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: view of sleep. What you know, why do we sleep?
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: What's going on? What happens when it doesn't do well?
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: So we're going to explore that. But I often say
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: when I'm talking about seek the corporate so I say,
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: when you're asleep, magic is happening.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: It is alchemy, pure alchemy.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: It is, isn't it?
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: So tell tell our listener, just give us an overview,
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: tell them about the glymphatic system, and then maybe just
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: some of the processes, the restorative biological processes that are
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: happening when you're asleep.
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think this is one of the I suppose,
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: most fundamental, most exciting, most important medical discoveries of our time.
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: I really think the mechanism on how our brains stay clean,
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: so basically throughout the day, there's many things that happen.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: So inside your.
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: Brain you have a little explosions that produce energy. So
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: I don't know if you guys can remember from ur
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: eate biology, and it's a denozine triphosphate or ATP, which
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: is a molecule that bursts apart and the phosphate bond
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: like breaks and comes off and produces energy which you use.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: And what happens is there's like cellular.
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: Like exhaust that gets left over or the metabolic byproducts
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: of energy production, and this stuff kind of builds up,
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: and that cellular exhaust is called a denozine, and a
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: denaxine is Mother Nature's dimmer switch, and it kind of
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: makes you sleepy. Your motor skills and you grow skills
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: will just sort of like slow down, and it's basically
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: saying you know enough, and so that builds up. And
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: we know that a denozine is you know, well, caffeine
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: is an antagonist. That caffeine can sit on those receptors
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: and block the feeling of being sleepy. So I want
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: everyone to know caffeine does not give you energy. People
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: think that, oh, I've got to have my coffee to
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: get to get energized, but it's just basically blocking the
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: signals that makes.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: A masco right, it's the real shit.
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: Yes, And so we know that caffeine has a half
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: life of about somewhere between six hours, depends on your metabolism.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: You live at health where you're program if you're.
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: On the pill, but it will we're off after six
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: hours and you're actually even worse. That's why you can
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: get that caffeine crash because it's basically the true nature
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: of your sleep status just is like in full assault
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: and all of that. A genozine hits those receptors and
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: you feel like crap. So as going back to a genozine,
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: we know that it gives you an impending sense of doom.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: The reason we know.
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: This, you know, like when you tie, everything feels just
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: overwhelming and just feels like crap. And we know that
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: this happens because the genozine is also used as a
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: heart medication for tachycardia, and when doctors administer them to
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: the patient, they say to them like, don't worry, You're
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: not going to die, because patients like, well, it feels
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: that you feel like this anxiousness and this like like
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: something like burgeoning is bad is about to happen and
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: you feel awful, and they say, don't worry, that's not true.
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: You're not going to die. It's just the adentizine. And
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: so this builds up. But what happens is humans like
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: to post rationalize. They like to think, man, I feel
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: like crappy, wake up and I feel like absolute crap,
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: And people say, well, it must be my dog, my life.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: My wife, my house, my you know, you name it whatever.
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: But actually you're just walking around with a dirty brain,
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: a very dirty brain, and you don't know it.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: And there's only one way to get rid of adenizine.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: As you can guess, it's sleep.
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but there's a certain part of sleep architecture, and
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: that is deep slow wave sleep. And people don't realize
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: that often we are getting sleep, but we're not getting
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: sufficient deep slow wave sleep because we are not going
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: to sleep at the right time. But just so just
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: going back to the glymphatic system, So what happens is
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: inside your brain, you've got cells, and you've got cerebral
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: spinal fluid and interstitial fluid. And during deep slow wave sleep,
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: your cells will move back, so it'll increase the area
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: between the cells by.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: Up to sixty percent.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: And so then what happens is about every fifty minutes
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: you get these tiny pulsatile skirts of adrenaline which like
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: pumps the cerebral spinal fluid through your brain. It's like
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: a bilge pump or it's kind of like a gurny.
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: And you can imagine if you had you had an alleyway,
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: and then all the cars were in the alleyway, but
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: during deep slow wave sleep they moved. They parked to
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: the side and someone comes through with a big gurny
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: and flushes away bit of amyloids towels. It helps with
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: the reconstitution of that energy. It's like alchemy. So the
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: adenazine turns back into a denozine triphosphate, then it goes
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: to genozine diphosphate, then it goes to a denozine, so
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: that our comic like you know, magical process happens during sleep.
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: And what people don't understand is that there's things that
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: will mess your deep slow wave sleep.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: You think you're asleep, but you're not, and you're not
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: cleaning your brain.
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: And I remember I showed this in one of my workshops,
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: and I have got this you know, MRI of this
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: brain getting cleaned out during deep slow wave sleep. And
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: I said, remember this slide if you ever feel like,
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: you know, getting divorced, quitting your job. And this woman
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: came back to me and she said, oh my god,
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: this slide saved my marriage.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: Oh, because she had the impending doom from lack of
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: sleep and thinking, oh, my marriage just screwed, and yah,
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: she says it's him.
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: She was like, I won't to tell her name it
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: or anything, but she was like, I feel suspicious. I
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: think he's cheating on me. I don't think he loves
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: me anymore. I I you know. And then she says,
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: so she started like getting upset with him about not
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: packing the dishwasher properly and doing leaving socks, and she
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: just got into this awful downward spiral and then she said,
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: I got a tracker, and then I just realized I
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: was not getting into deep slow way of sleep. It
• 10:24
  Speaker 4: was really minimal, and so I just had a dirty brain.
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: And so there is a window of opportunity when you
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: get deep slow way sleep, and it's primarily in the
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: first two hours before midnight.
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: And this is really critical, isn't it, Because we know
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: that there's earles and larks, right larks.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: I'm a lark. I tend to go to bed earlier.
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: But people who stay up late at night they suffer
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: from more I think neurodegeneral disease and worseh mental health,
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: don't it because basically they have a dirty or brillan
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: If you're because you're missed seeing a lot of that
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: critical deep sleep.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: So people with irregular sleep schedules have about fifty percent
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: higher or cause mortality than independent of how much sleep
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: they get compared to duration.
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: So it is a big deal.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: They said that if everybody just went to sleep one
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: hour earlier, the global depression rate would dropped by twenty
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: three percent.
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So there's a window opportunity where you get into
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: deep soil, and so all the processes, all the metabolic
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: you know, cellular activity is all contrived to do what
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: it's supposed to do, clean and repair and reconstitute atp
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: and so people don't know that during that two hours
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: you get seventy to eighty percent of your human growth
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: woman this massive, big spike.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: And so if you miss that window, you.
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: May make up the overall number like millileaters milligrams of it,
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: but you miss that big ballets, You miss that big hit,
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: and you get little squirts of it throughout the twenty
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: four hours.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: But so what would happen.
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: You get growth on and that doesn't actually reach certain
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: parts of your body or your metabolic processes. So this
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: is why people think that shift workers might die on
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: average fifteen years earlier than non shift workers because they
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: just never quite get that big hit of growth.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: On and you're always running on in sort of empty.
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: And then also you know, if you don't clean out
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: those sticky you know, beta amyloys and towers, it's like
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: these proteins that build up this like sticky goo in
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: your brain and that's highly correlated with dementia and so
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: things that we know actually don't let you get into deep,
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: slow way of sleep and do that pulsatile cleaning, things
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: like alcohol, things like you know, sleep tablets.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because when you take sleeping tablets, as I said,
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: not really asleep your conscious right, it's not.
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: Desrestgated that you don't have the beautiful you know cycling
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: through and you don't have all the cakelon complexes and
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: spindles and all those all the deep rolling waves and
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: all that stuff is just shut down and you don't
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: don't have that little dronine and pulsatiles that help push
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: all the gunk out. So yeah, I mean, you know,
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: for people out there who do take sleeping tablets, have
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: a wash out period. You know, don't take them every day,
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: like try and give your brain a break to wash
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: it out. Also, you know, alcohol is terrible. Oh, I'm
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: so sorry to say. And you know day drink instead.
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right too, if you drink earlier,
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: which which my wife likes to do, if we shares
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: a glass of one. You like to have it at dinner, yeah,
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: I like to have it after dinner, or she likes
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: to have it before dinner, which is but it's actually
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: much better to do it then because your your body
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: tabo lasers at all.
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: Right, you shouldn't be having it on an empty stomach
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: because in your stomach, you know, as you know, you've
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: got these tight junctions.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, very tight, like they've almost got like a glue.
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: And alcohols, particularly like spirits, will strip off the mucus
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: and they will undo those type junctions a bit, and
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: then you can get some you know, I suppose food
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: particles that get into your bloodstream and cause inflammation and
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: your immune systems thinking, what are these things? It's just
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: like food particles, but they're not supposed to be there, right,
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: So these type junctions are very important in your digestive
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: check but also in your blood brain barrier. So alcohol
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: can loosen those type junctions.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Might give you a bit of a leaky guys, and
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: that's really importantly.
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: I've got a to order who's at university at the minute,
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: and a lot of her friends like to drink on
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: an empty stomach because they get.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: More drunk quicker. Right.
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: But and when women, again, they are affected up to
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: fifty percent more than men, and it really messes with
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: this leak, particularly certain parts of your luteel phase.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: You're more susceptible to alcohol.
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: You get drunk or quicker. We've got less blood, We've
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: got less enzymes. Yeah, we we. I mean I can
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: drink as much as most men, but most women.
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: Can't, said the scientist.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: No chances, you.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Know, I've got my ancestors.
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: So we've talked about we talked about deep sleep there,
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: so a lot of people know they know about the
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: importance of deep sleep that have also heard about the
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: importance of ram sleep. I remember reading a twenty nineteen
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: paper by Dutch researchers who blocked ram sleep in both
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: animals and then follow it up with humans and find
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: that it induced anxiety like behaviors in a week.
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: Right, Yes, so yeah, this is so inch So what
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: it does It trains your brain for its fear conditioning.
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: And so if you're like a lot of people will
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: cut off their if they drink and or if they've
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: got early alarms and they're getting up to play sport
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: or something. So you know, REMS is predominantly characterizing the
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: later part of your sleep architecture. So around two am
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: on it's often white people wake up.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: But so what happens is, you know, humans.
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: Are naturally scared of like snakes. You know, if we
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: see a snake, will like curl back.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: That's okay, that's you know we should be.
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: But then you know, if you see a garden hose,
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: you're like, is that a hose or a snake? And
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: then your brain over overrides and says, no, that's just
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: a garden hose. You go okay, and it settles down,
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: so you don't get scared.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Of garden hoses.
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: But what they see is if you cut off your
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: rem your fear conditioning doesn't get recalibrated, so you'll see
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: a garden hose, get scared of it, and then every
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: time you see a garden hose you get scared of it.
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: Then you get scared of sticks that look like snakes,
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: and then you get scared of shadows that are long
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: and skinny. So it doesn't dampen your fear conditioning. And
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: so what we see is, you know, people who drink
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: a lot actually more anxious, and then they drink to
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: stop being anxious, but the alcohol is probably pushing off
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: their RAM. It crushes ram because it wants to engage
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: in deep slow wave sleep to get rid of the.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: Poisons from alcohol.
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: So your RAM gets pushed out and then so you're
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: not actually having the fear condition. We think that could
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: be implicated in PTSD that it could be a bit
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: of a sleep condition because you're waking up in your
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: RAM from these horrible dreams and you never get to
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: file them away. So we have what I use the
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: analogy of a midnight librarian. So imagine during rem sleep,
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: you've got a librarian he or she is got a
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: big bench and all the things that happened during the
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: day come into her desk in manila folders, and then
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: she'll go that's the one goes with that box, so
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: that one that can go over there, Oh that's boring,
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: don't need that book, this one, And then they'll get
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: some kind of really sort of emotionally evoking memory and say, well,
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: this one I need executive orders though this is too confusing,
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: and they often will wake up the boss to.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: Go, isn't I've read that.
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: Sleep is the only time in your life when the
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: release of nora adrenaline from the look of curelius is dumpened,
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: and that's the kind of sister chemical of adrenaline. So
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: it's basically, as you were saying, that the brain is
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: replaying the day's events deciding what the store. Is a memory,
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: but it's supposed to suppress nora adrenaline, so you relive
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: that memory in a less stressful environment. But yes, but
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: when people are really stressed, doesn't that override and it
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: leaks in And that's why you wake up at three
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: am and you're not you're not thinking about your best
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: holiday ever, are you? No?
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: I mean, there's there's lots of theories, but while we
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: wake up, this is actually one of them.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: So basically, your brain is trying to make.
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: Sense of something traumatic, and what it does, it's trying
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: to habituate you to that imagery and try it's actually
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: trying to take away the sting. So it's like a
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: movie theater playing it over and over. Aguess like exposure
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: therapy without those because when you produce adrenaline. What it
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: does signposts this is a frightening thing, and it puts
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: it in a certain part of your memory. Yet this
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: flashbold memory just to think, hey, this is something you
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: should be very aware of and very scared of every
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: time you see it. And you never get to distinguish
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: that that that feeling, or that that memory or that
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: visual kind of imagery. And that's what sleeping is trying
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: to do, is trying to take the sting out so
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: you remember the lesson. So all of the details are there,
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: but you just don't have that emotional reaction to it.
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: I think those Dutch researchers called rem sleep nately therapy
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: for the breas. Yeah, and if you don't have it,
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: and does mara wanta impact upon remsleep, I know alcohol does.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: Have you read anything about.
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: I saw a paper come across my computer this morning
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: and I didn't get a chance to read it. So
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: there's some new research coming out and I think there
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: is not good from the previous papers, but I really
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: would want to read it first before I say.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: Maybe you can flick it to me afterwards and we'll
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: do an update on it. So so that's the importance
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: of deep sleep is really about cleaning out your brain.
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: And and as you rightly said, those those tag tangles,
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: those aminoid plaques that build up if you're not having sleep,
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: they're the ones that are rampant in people with Alzheimer's disease.
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: And older people tend to have more of the junk
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: than younger people, but younger people with shit sleep, their
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: Brians resemble older people, right, So it is so important.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: For cleaning your brain.
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: The RAM sleep nightly therapy for the Brian. What about
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: the other stages of sleep.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: Like what are they? They? Are they useful or are
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: they just.
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: I think we're finding out more and more we're finding
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: out that all the stages are useful. So I mean,
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: you've got light sleep, we kind in the alpha wave,
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: and you know this can be the time where you're creative.
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: So a part of your pre front of a cortex
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: goes offline, so you can imagine things that you're not
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: constrained by the normal physics of reality. And that's why
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: you could, like I think Salvador Salvage or Dais to
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: use these hypnogonic sleep stages, so just to try and
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: you know, think of wild and amazing, you know, different connections.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: So yeah, alpha is good.
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: You know, it's like you know, trying to I think
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: Matthew Walker says, it's like trying to.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Land a plane.
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: You kind of have to cycle through these stages because
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: you've got to drop your core body temperature, you've got
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: to change your brain chemistry. You've got to you know,
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: really get into a place where you're akinesetized so you
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: don't act out your dreams.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: So on the way down and one.
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: And two and three, you've got things like sleep spindles.
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: You've got K complexes. So sleep spindles are associated with learning.
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: They're like little spikes in your sleep that you know,
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: they think what you're doing is that they're transmitting so
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: physical information on learning skills and.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: Your motor cortex.
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: They're trying to embed those memories or those skills. K
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: complexes are like they're big kind of spikes and basically
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: they're like the brains bounces. So if you hear a
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: car door slam, or you know, if you're listening to
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: a TV show and it starts clapping, it's like a
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: bouncer that'll kind of protect you from waking up. It'll
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: check to see do you need to wake up and
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: if not, it's kind of protecting you. But what you
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: do is you get micro arousals throughout the night from
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: these K complexes. So throughout age you get swindled di indles,
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: swindle dwindle, and you get less K complexes. So we
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: think that could be also implicated and demental or the
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: inability to learn because you get less of these and
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: then you know down into DITPCH slow wave sleep, and
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: then you come back up into REM and so this
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: all takes around ninety minutes and it's like a theater
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: production if you push out one stage, like you can't
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: just go, oh, we'll go catch up on that later.
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: Like these things need to happen in succession, and there's
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: it's you know like it's a it's a it's a
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: formula like this and this and this and this and
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: this and the.
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: I think what's important for people to understand is to
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: get to sleep, you have to go through alpha, right,
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: So that first stage you're in alpha waves, which is
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: that relaxation, meditative you know, wusy sort of steer it.
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: But that's kind of like where we're in non deep
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: sleep nst are non sleep deep rest or yoga nidra.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: Which which we'll talk about it in a minute.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: But but this is why when people are stressed, they
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: can't get to sleep, because when you're stressed, you're in
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: high beta. If you're in high beta, it's physiologically impossible
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: to get to sleep. You've got to get done from
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: high beta into little beta, then coming into alpha, which
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: is why stuff like slow control breathing and things like
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: that happen, particularly when you're when you're stressed.
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: Right, So, yeah, and you've got to you've got to
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: tell you your brain bounces like you know everything's safe.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you actually get into a vulnerable position tonight.
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: Nothing's going to hurt you, bite you touch you like,
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: And so your brain's like scanning the environment for safety signals.
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: And sometimes your brain just will not, particularly if you've
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: had a troubled childhood, you've got a highly activated brain
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: bouncer that just wants to, you.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: Know, make sure. And you know, I was speaking to
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: a girl, she.
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: Was an athlete, and she was like, I just cannot,
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: I cannot go to sleep. I'm so stressed all the time.
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: And as it turned out, she used to get all
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: of her brothers and sisters little ones and keep them
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: into it, like make her bed, and then she'd stay
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: up all night and protect them from some uncles who
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: were like terrible. And I was like, oh, that's so sad.
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: So she sacrificed her whole nights of good sleep, and
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: she just got into this habit, and even though she
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: was a grown up, she couldn't get she couldn't get
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: over it. And so I was like, what you need
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: to do is you need to like create your own
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: little cocoon, like get a mossy net made out of
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: like and then sort of had blankets and pillows all
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: around and then cocoonies to lock your door and just
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: make like tell your primative brain that you're in a
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: safe sanctuary, sleep little nest. And she was like, oh
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: my god, that she goes just listening to that to
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: make me feel sleepy.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: That's awesome. I'll try that.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: That's really cool.
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: And let's not talk about what's the impact of both
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: short term sleep debt, like what's the impact the next
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: day on your cognitive function and hormones, and then long
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: term chronic sleep debt.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: What does that do?
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: You've already hinted at some of the things, but let's
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: just go through a little bit of a list.
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so like you've got to be careful because all
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: of us will have, you know, at least a night's
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: sleep or no, didn't sleep and we've got a big
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: day tomorrow. So I'm really cognizant of making people understand that,
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: you know, if it happens, it happens, one night is okay. Like,
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: like you know, self working with athletes, how many athletes
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: have you worked with that totally tanked their peak performance
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: at at a huge event.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: Because they had a bad night sleep. And I'm like,
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: you're like the.
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: Fields and then they get the anxiety that shit sleep anxiety, right.
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So I'm like, what you're doing. You have got
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: to disentangle deconflate sleep deprivation with sleep deprivation and anxiety,
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: because you're giving yourself a double whammy and the metabolic
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: burn of negative rumination around oh my god, I'm tired
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: like that is actually very expensive. You're actually using up
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: a lot of energy that you don't have. So it's
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: really important that if you do have a bad night's sleep,
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: you go into work or you go into your event
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: and you say, you know what.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: I'm actually pretty good.
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: I'm actually I actually feel pretty good considering, and you
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: look for evidence within your body of your actually feeling,
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: like the soles of my feet for pretty strong, or
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: I'm actually like my memory is pretty good, or like
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: you just it's almost like your gaslight.
• 27:00
  Speaker 5: And don't look at your bloody wearable.
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: If you've got to performance and you're prone to a
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: bit of that, just don't look at it.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: I've got a couple of athletes like I can't wear it.
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because they've they've actually done experiments. But they tick
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: people in give some of them good sleep, some of
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: them they get disturbed sleep. And then they tell some
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: of the people who got the good sleep that they
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: had shited sleep, and some of them wants here. But
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: and then they do test the cognitive function and they
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: basically live up to what they're told, even if it
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: was the opposite of what happened.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So the.
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: Question is the greatest what is the greatest predictor of
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: next day cognitive performance? And you just said it, It
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: is your perception of how will.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: You act on no sleep?
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there you go, or your perception of your sleep?
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: So yeah, you can gaslight. So I do that when
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: I'm traveling, Like I get like a lot I do.
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: But I'm like, I'm not attending to these I'm not.
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: I'm just gonna no, I'm not doing it. Because the
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: more you like think, oh my god, oh so that,
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: the worse it is. So I'm very very careful about
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: my mindset around things like that. But yeah, so but
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: post you know, if you've getting three point five hours
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: or sixty percent of your sleep knees for three nights,
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: you were cooked.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you should be.
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: You should be doing operating machinery, making big decisions, telling
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: people what to do.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: I remember did they not learning? You know?
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: I remember German being on combat survival and resistance to
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: interrogation of course, in the south of the UK, in
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: the middle of winter, with no sleeping bags, and we got.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: Thrashed every night.
• 28:28
  Speaker 5: We were so friggin sleep deprived.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: Hallucinating.
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, day seven, me and my apple stick, we were hallucinating.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: He was We were going through the forest.
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: At night now vigating and he saw hell'sy angels, right,
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: he was jumping out of the way of frigging Hell's
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: injurs on watorbakes that weren't there.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: And I was sollucinating as well. It was mental.
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I've got a bit in the book about this,
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: Like basically, you know, sleep sleep deprivation torture is illegal,
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: we willingly do it to ourselves every night because it is.
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: It is one of the most effective torture campaigns. Psychological
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: warfare is that's the first thing they will do.
• 29:12
  Speaker 5: The prisoners of war.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: They want to get shipped out of them. They don't
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: have to freaking.
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: Physically just sleep deprived the ship out of them for
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: days and then they're fucked.
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: It's a bruiseless that punishment. I mean, you don't get
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: good information. People will say anything to be allowed to sleep.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: So is it horrible?
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: But I mean if you want if you want good intel,
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: there's other ways.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: But which is for another podcast. Yeah, So we talked
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: about those short term effects.
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: What about the impact of like chronically bad sick Now,
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: you mentioned shift workers, and I think any shift for it.
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: I've always said you could not pay me enough money
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: to do shift work because I've seen that research as well.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: Ten to fifteen years reduced life expect I mean that
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: just shows you how important it is.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: But what are some of the.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: Other diseases conditions that are ramped up with chronic sleep debt,
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: like my top barred sleep over years and years and years.
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: Well, it makes you fat, gives your diabetes. So people
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: don't realize that if you're eating in that late night window,
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: like your all your physiology is geared to do other stuff,
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: and if you're throwing food into it, insulin goes burco.
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: You will lay down fat, you will not be digesting food,
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: your peristasis slows down. So there's all these second and
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: third or effects of literally having dysregulated blood glucose insulin.
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: You know, you can get insulin resistance, which means if
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: you have sugar, you actually can't pull it into your cells. Yeah,
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: one hundred percent put on weight, so if you sleep deprived,
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: your body will reduce griellin, so reduced selectic, which is
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: your cetaceans by I think it's like it was eighteen
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: percent more what grillin if you have one night of
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: sleep deprovation, so you are hungrier.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: The next day more and your ability.
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: To suppress your hunger as I think it was like
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: eleven percent. You put on belly fat, you put on
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: visceral fat, so your fat distribution changes your ability to
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: heal blood. You know, browne muscle all that skin all goes,
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: you're more prone to getting injured. So what is the
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: greatest predictor of sporting performance, It is athlete availability. What
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: is the greatest predictor of athlete availability avoidance of injury?
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: What is the greatest predictor of injury avoidance? Sleep? So
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: it is the greatest you know, you say that legal
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: high performance protocol Jani.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, having a good sleep.
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: And I think the other thing is impact on cortiovascular disease.
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: You know you mentioned diabetes, but dan high diabetes independently
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: play plays into Alzheimer's and dementia. But high sleep depreviation,
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: as we talked about earlier.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: Directly diabetes of the brain.
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yea.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: The sugars that.
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: Are creating you probably the towels and you know better
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: amyloids or you know, there's this byproduct of sugar, you know,
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: production or metabolism.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: That's all just like clogging up your brain.
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so it is.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: It is really important, particularly for your heart.
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: So we know during deep slow wave sleep, your heart
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: actually beats slower and you have less heart beats during
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: that period. So if you're missing out on deep slow
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: wat sleep, you're actually working your heart harder. Like this
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: is this is a muscle that never stops. The more
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: rist you can give it at the right time, the better.
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: So if you're never getting into that deep sow wave sleepe,
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: you're just burning that thing.
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: Do you know the one that I talked to corporate
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: about that gets the most attention.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: This is for the gentleman.
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: I don't know if you've seen this research study three
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: nights bad sleep and your balls shrink yep.
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: Yes, men who sleep less than five hours a night
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: have smaller testicles and then who sleep more than five hours.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: There who did that research?
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: I know because they actually have the massive of it.
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: It's like that, you know why because if they asked them,
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: if it was self report, that data would have been
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: absolute bullshit.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: Erupted.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: No, that's that big they are. Are you sure?
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: No?
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: Trust me?
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: That's funny, So no.
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: Like sorry, Like women don't get away with it. Also
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: like there's a high incidence of having perimen earlier perimenopause.
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: So so chronic per sleep is more likely to induce
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: early perimenopause.
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: The amount of women who come up to me after
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: an event and say, I don't know what's wrong with me?
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: And I said, they said I'm like, have you had
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: your hormone levels checked?
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: And they're like, oh really, I'm only thirty eight.
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And then you know, invariably I get an email
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: saying you were right, I'm going on perimenopausal And so
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: you go into it earlier and then, like you know,
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: you have a tougher time during menopause because menopause also
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: ruins your sleep, and then you're more likely to have
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: miscarriages if you don't sleep, and you're more likely to
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: get breast cancer.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: Wow, because when you're you know, in.
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: That deep, slow way of sleep, you know, your bodies
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: does a lurgy stock take, So it basically checks out
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: what's all the teratogens or what are all the you know, pathogens,
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: what are the terrible things that my body's come into
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: contact with. It kind of categorizes it. And we have
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: a library, a stock take library, and our bodies.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: And when you're sleep deprived, your body doesn't get a.
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: Chance to do its lurking stock take, and so your
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: ability to respond timely to pathogens is somewhat compromised.
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: I think the other thing that just to throw in there,
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: if people aren't depressed enough, is your DNA repair enzyme
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: stn't actively because they kick in when you're sleep and
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: they go out and clean up cancer, some pre cancer seales.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: So increase can't telling me is the shorter?
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, less.
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: Maybe we should stop there and then scare the ship.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: I just felt like in my book it was so
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: much like doom.
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: But then we give people some tips, right, which is
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: what the section network. Now I go, actually, before we
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: do that, does everybody need to see them sleep?
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: Like me? You do? We need to see them sleep?
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: And then how do you sleep?
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: Needs change over the lifespan. We know younger kids need
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: more sleep because they're growing. But from an adult perspective,
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: as you eage, are the requirements less or do we
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: just sleep less than that contributes to aging?
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: No? So really, so kids really need a lot more sleep.
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: So tenagers should be sleeping like ten hours, nine ten hours.
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: Athletes should be over that. But and particularly you know
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: young boys need that that morning sleep as well for
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: a whole lot of reasons. But so if you look
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: at big population studies, humans on average needs seven and
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: a half hours sleep, and what they've seen is that
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: if you sleep over nine hours, you actually have a
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: short life. Yeah yeah, And then of course under seven
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: not so good. But there are people who've won the
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: genetic Lotto who've got a deck to gene they only
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: need four to five hours night of sleep, which would
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: be amazing.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: So these are people.
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: It's an over representation of these people in politics.
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: Ye, Margaret Thatcher very famously was one of those people, right,
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: And isn't it a super small percentage of popular.
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: One in a thousand, hundred thousand and so the current
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: Prime Minister of Tokyo, Winston Churchill. Yeah, there's a lot
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: of really famous people because they just were able to
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: get ahead. And well, all of us have to sleep,
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: but no, we definitely need around seven and that's seven
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: and a half hours asleep, so you need about eight
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: hours in bed to like get there.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: And so if you don't get that, there's not.
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: One system in your body that isn't impacted by sleep deprivation.
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: And so when people say, oh, I'm a morning a
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: lark or a night owl, there's a bit of conjecture
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: about whether that's true or not. So there was the
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: sentinel sleep hypothesis where you know, a hunter gatherers, we
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: would have like thirty percent of our tribe would be awake,
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: sort of keeping them, taking into the fires, making sure
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: the fires so bugs would stay away, predators would stay away.
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: But you know that was around the equator, and then
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: in the northern hemispheres there was you know, bimodal sleep,
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: you know, sleep first, then get up, and then in
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: the middle of the night you know, talk, have sex,
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: you know, whittle sticks, neit, and have a second sleep.
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: So these weren't one hundred percent. But what we see
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: is that when people say there's you know chronotops, yes
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: there are, but it's only it only accounts for about
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: one to two hours difference. The four to six hours
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: of difference in chronotypes. That is self imposed. That's caffeine,
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: that's computer games, that's staying up really because people say
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: to me, like, I've been going to bed at four
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: in the morning, I'm like, what kind of fresh I know?
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: That's that's a that's a lifestyle fears shift, right, And
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: a lot of teenagers, yes they do fear shift, but
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: a lot of it's there and lifestyle driven with a
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: fear shift liater and can't we fears shift back like
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: a couple of hours if we yeah, yeah, it's habits right.
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: Anchoring your morning wake is the best way to phase
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: shift back and they're not not nap during the day
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: and go to bed tired because you've gotten up at six.
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: But just going back to ages, like so it really
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: depends on what's happening in your life. But you know, teenagers, interestingly,
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: so as they get into you know, puberty and get
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: a little bit older there, melotone production actually shifts back
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: one to two hours, so they are not actually secreting,
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: you know, not getting that natural sleep pressure till like
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: past ten o'clock. And there's an evolutionary theory that why
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: this happens is because as teenagers you know, started to
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: grow up and they needed to learn about you know,
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: life and different things from their younger siblings. It gave
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: them time to sit around the fire and hear the
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: adult stories, and it gave them time to like sort
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: of break away from being the child and take on
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: more responsibility and you know and just like sort of
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: transmute into that adult stage of their life. And so
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: people think, oh, you know, my kids just up all
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: night and they won't go to bed, they're naughty, and
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: then they're sleeping in late. Well that it actually is
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: a biological phase shift in their hormones, and so we
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: should let them actually sleep in longer.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: I can tell you, sorry, Jemma.
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: Right now, I got a fifteen year old boy who's
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: always been really good at sleep.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: We all are.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: I can't believe he's I remember seeing the pictures of.
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: He's fifteen, right, and he's got testosteron hurts and stuff,
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: and often, you know, he normally would be would be
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: in bed at nine o'clock. Now it's it's like sometimes
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: at ten o'clock he's getting such an energy surge. It's
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: just ridiculous. And that's just that's the changing hormones, right,
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: and how they Yeah, well.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: There was like you know, it was protective.
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: So the young guys could you know, stay up and
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: protect and do stuff that you know, the oldies didn't
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: want to do.
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: Now let's talk about some of the stuff that we
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: can actually do about it. So, I mean, there's so
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: many sleepy ins out there. Give us your top three
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: or five that you think are really useful and then
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: maybe just explode some of the Instagram tech took horseshit,
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: that's yeah.
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: So I really I'm a big believer, like, at least
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: for some time, track yourself.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: So if you know if you're getting into deep sway sleep.
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: Or not, if you're getting rim and you may have
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: a constellation of physical and psychological issues that you were like,
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: oh it must be this way. You don't know where
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: it's coming from. And actually, if you just solved getting
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: that deep so worse, so getting that rem they might
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: actually just disappear. And so I think that, you know,
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: we've got this epidemic of depression and anxiety. I honestly
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: believe it's a sleep deprivation epidemic. They're so tightly well,
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: there's not one person I've met like this is how
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: I actually got into sleep research because I was like,
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: I'm a stress researcher who absolutely hated sleeping.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: A night hour. I just I think it's boring and annoying.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: It's a waste of time, Yes.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Total waste of time. And then I was like, hang
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: on a minute.
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: I was looking at my data, and there was not
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: one person who I saw who had sleep issues who
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: didn't eventually succumb to some kind of mental health disruption.
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: And there was not one person I knew who had
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: mental health disruption who didn't have a sleep disorder. And
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: I'm like, this is not a coincidence, and so then
• 41:53
  Speaker 4: I got really strict about it. I travel a lot,
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: but I'm pretty strict about it, and so I honestly believe,
• 41:59
  Speaker 4: like track it, I use the WOOP.
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: Do you think they are a reasonable representation of our
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: I think that they're pretty good at time in bed?
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: What are they?
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: What do they like at sleep stages? What's your thoughts
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: on that?
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it depends on So I haven't seen the data
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: on the new Whoop or the aura like they like
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: I'm a Whooper, you know.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: I think aura is almost as good or some you know,
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: like in.
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: Validation studies, they're pretty They're pretty good. I don't like
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: just having the ring of been just annoying, but they
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: are getting very good and better than nothing right.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: And upper watch Garman, any thoughts on those.
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: I haven't seen the validation studies of like the latest
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: iterations of it, but I would be skeptical unless there
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: are pre reviewed, you know, evidence based papers, because a
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: lot of them over and underestimate your sleep stages, any
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: heart rate variability. So yeah, but if I look at WOOP,
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: I think it was like one of the best up
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: against the polysomnogram, Like it's you know, okay cool, which
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: is the gold standard. And so that's my my my
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: favorite one is the eight sleep.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: Ah so oh do you read that? That is that?
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: So that's the that's the mattress, isn't it? Because I
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: knew about it all the time, I'm like, I would
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: not have boying with getting more.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, get it.
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: Particularly if you have a partner who if you like,
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: run hot and she runs cold, or if say she's
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: perimenopausal and has hot flushes and anything. So what it
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: does It differentially cools and heats your but according to physiology,
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: it does all these microadjustments. You get into bed. So
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: say it's up at my farm it's freezing and the
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: bed is all snugly and warm, and you get in
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: and then it'll drop your core body temperhaure like slowly.
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: Then it knows if you're in ram or deep sleep
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: or whatever. And there is the bed which is very expensive.
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: I haven't got this one. But if you snore, it'll
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: just like lightly like lift up, so it just stops
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: you from snoring. And then it's got haptic alarm, so
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: it knows what stage of your sleep cycle you're in,
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: so you don't get wor sleep right yet sleep inertia
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: if you get worken up in deep slow epsites, if.
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: You're like crap for like I always said, if you
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: know you've been walking up in deep sleep, because you
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: feel like you've been a bush.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: So just on that.
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: Because because the stuff that sits under the bed, is
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: it noisy because I just I hear farns.
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: It's like you habituate to it, like I changed my
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: field recently and it was a bit of a noise
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: and it stopped.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: But I don't care like it is. I would.
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: I didn't pay for it because it was given to you,
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: but honestly I would pay for it. There's a subscription model.
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: I don't know it's a couple of grand but it's
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: a lot. But honestly, it changes your life. And if
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: you you know, if you've been drinking alcohol, it will
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: drop your top temperature. You don't get dehydrated at night.
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: Like it's a bit of a hangover cure. I heard
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: this funny thing the other day that a husband he's
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: set secretly set his wife's side of the bed really
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: cold and he's warm, so then she would come over
• 45:10
  Speaker 4: and snuggle him and she would just spooning him and
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: he's like, yes, I'll tell you what.
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: That's the best bit of advertising they could do to
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: blokes for sure.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: So let's let's talk all the sleeping.
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: So sleepy and if you don't, if you don't have
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: dozands of dollars to chuck at your sleep problem. But
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: if you do have a chronic sleep problem, that might
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: be worth it. If you can dig up the money,
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: it's probably well spent. Any can prove your sleep.
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: Also, diets a huge thing, like get off the sugar
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: before bed. You know it's really corral oed with sleep
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: up NOA, yeah, I am a big fan of like
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: making sure you eat for your gut buy them and
• 45:47
  Speaker 4: your gut buy him. Is very It really does affect
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: your sleep what you put into your body. If heavy
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: meat before bed, your body wants to get rid of
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: that big chunk of decomposing flesh rather than getting too
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: deep so low wave sleep, so digestion will compete with
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: deep slow wave sleep. So don't eat meat before bed,
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: eat it for lunch and have vegetair. Not huge difference.
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: If you you know alcohol, I'm sorry to say it's terrible, terrible,
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: terrible MSG.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: This is one hidden.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: Which is in a lot of Chinese foods.
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: Right, it's all it's an all takeaway food, it's an
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: all packaged food, so it's got that too good to
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: be too tasty.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: Yourmami flavor.
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: And so glutamator is a neurotransmitter, so it's the thing
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: like often you'll have it and you feel absolutely exhausted.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: You go to bed, and then what it does.
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: It shortens your deep slower seed but it gives you
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: crazy m sleep.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: But it's not nice.
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: You like wake up and you've had nightmares and like
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: often really intense, really active dreams, and you feel really thirsty,
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: dehydrated and.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: Just strung out.
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: So people go, I, well, that crap. But it could
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: be eating the MSG before. But I used to say
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: with the athletes, do not eat any sources, anything packaged
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: night before a big event because if it's got MSG
• 47:02
  Speaker 4: in it, it will mess with your sleep.
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: And look basically another good reason not to eat ultra
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: processed food. Right, Yes, And I actually because I used
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: to be a li at night snacker and I stopped that,
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: you know, because and I thought, Hi, the hell am
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: I going to get through the night without it? And
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: I run an experiment. I didn't eat and I woke
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: up and I wasn't dead, and I'm like, fucking hell,
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: who knew?
• 47:22
  Speaker 5: So I caught my lit Nate snack soaked.
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: Because because the impact, Yeah, because I got they've got
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: their own little Cychian rhythms. And if you're feeding at
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: sugar and crap before bed, it sends you know, biodentical
• 47:35
  Speaker 4: horman is like grill into your brain and makes you
• 47:37
  Speaker 4: like hungry through the night. And often you get that
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: three am waking. People keep wake up with screaming hunger.
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: A lot of people do snack during the night. It's
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: you know, it's terrible. Another thing, you know, caffeine of course,
• 47:49
  Speaker 4: so caffeine, as I said, blocks of dennizine. And what
• 47:53
  Speaker 4: people say, which is really interesting, and so many people say,
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: I can have, you know, five cups of coffee and
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: it doesn't bother me. And what we see now because
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: we're using sleep trackers, that that's bullshit. You may you
• 48:06
  Speaker 4: may think that you sleep okay, but if you look
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: at the micro arousalus throughout the night, so even with.
• 48:13
  Speaker 5: A deep less deep sleep as well, I think I'm yeah.
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: I'm trying to remember that it was like four cups
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: of caffeine in the twelve hours before bed, people's sleep
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: was shut down by like, you know, up to an
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: hour less than if you didn't have those work.
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: And that has a massive impact, right, I generally have
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: the rude one. I'm advising people of corporates, no more
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: than two fifty milligrams and try to be done to
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: ten hours before you go to bed. No.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you can separate that into two yeah.
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and the So let's talk about some other
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: sleep ears. I'll get your opinion. I'm not a big
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: fan of melatonin.
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: I'm not a fan because if you're giving your body
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: free melotonin, what's what's it going to do? Is like
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: I'm not going to produce any indigenous melotonin because it's expensive.
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: I'm getting it for free, and especially if you get
• 49:09
  Speaker 4: off the internet. I've got a big bit in the
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: book about it. So when they tested it, because it's
• 49:14
  Speaker 4: totally unregulated in the States, and when they tested it,
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: there were some of these gummies would have zero and
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: some would have almost like four hundred times what it
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: said it would. And so they're getting a lot of
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: babies coming in poison and some are like coming and
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: deceased because they're just having massive Well, people.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: Are giving meloton into their.
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: Babies, well babies are finding it or yes, and people
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: are giving it to their kids melotonin gummies. It's really bad.
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: It's there's so many other you know, cellular metabolic processes
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: that melotonin.
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: It's not like oh and the more that you have
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: the better.
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: It is like you are messing with some systems we
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: don't even know about it.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: I agree.
• 49:56
  Speaker 5: Don't mess with your hormones full stop.
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: What was your thoughts on things like glycine ashwagandha if
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: you're stressed?
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: Magnesium thoughts?
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: Yes, magnesium is good. Magnesium glacinate.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: You know if I'm glad you said that. It's actually
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: the one that I enjoy it.
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: I think it's more bioavailable, right.
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there's six hundred metabolic processes in your body that
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: needs magnesium. Really good for elder people because you stopped
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: metabolizing it, and often older people don't eat as well.
• 50:25
  Speaker 4: So if you've got parents who are like looking like
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: they could have signs of dementia, get them on the
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: magnesium glacinate and you know, help them sleep.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: Tell them you got a bit earlier. Yeah, I mean
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: a lot of them, a lot.
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: I think a lot of them are efficacious in small doses,
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: but because we're throwing so much chemicals into our bodies
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: and with so much artificial light, and we're so like
• 50:49
  Speaker 4: strung and we're so you know, wound up, that yeah,
• 50:53
  Speaker 4: they may work, but if you've got a highly overactive,
• 50:56
  Speaker 4: stressed system, it's really hard for all of these natural
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: things to work. And so you do need to get like,
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: you know, sedated hardcore with you know, some benzodiazepines or something,
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: which are terrible for brain cleaning. So you know, like
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: it's a band aid. I think, you know, fix, Why
• 51:15
  Speaker 4: aren't you sleeping? Just go to bed before just I
• 51:17
  Speaker 4: always say, if you can't do anything, at least have
• 51:20
  Speaker 4: consistent sleep, be ready to go to sleep in your
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: bed at ten and then you know, eat, do all
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: the other things, but to start with that one thing.
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I actually think that.
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: I always say to people, your bedroom your briand needs
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: to know that your bedroom is asleep sanctuary, right, It's
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: where you've got to sleep. And if you're lucky, you
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: get a better boofty mcgoofty every night.
• 51:41
  Speaker 4: Which is really a thing on sex in there, which
• 51:43
  Speaker 4: is sex is really good for sleep.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: Perfect.
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: There you go from oxytocin.
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: I can I tell all the gentlemen out there, those
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: who let their wives sleep an extra hour got more
• 51:55
  Speaker 4: sex the next day, They're more likely to get sex
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: next day. And because oxytoase is the hormone that produces
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: during sex, it is the greatest cortisol antidotes.
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, And but so what's your thoughts
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: on TVs in the bedroom or both phones in the bedroom,
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: Like so many people they get them up and it's
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: it's my.
• 52:16
  Speaker 4: Lime clock.
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: Because they just they're just it's just a little it's
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: whispering at you, isn't it somebody?
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: But we've got we're like dopamine junkies, like, yeah, we
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: are just crack calls for.
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: It for dopamine.
• 52:34
  Speaker 4: And if even if your phone is there and you're
• 52:37
  Speaker 4: not looking at it, you've got this switching costs this
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: mental consternation. No, and then that actually is and you
• 52:44
  Speaker 4: know what, you have no idea what this thing is
• 52:46
  Speaker 4: going to show, Like you could wake up and get
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: on your phone, and especially in the morning. And I
• 52:52
  Speaker 4: always say, would you invite the most annoying person that
• 52:55
  Speaker 4: you know come and lie next to you and tell
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: you all their troubles. Literally, that's what you're doing by
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: like having your phone in your bed or waking up
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: and looking at it, because you've got no control over
• 53:04
  Speaker 4: like what rage baiting, provocative ship is.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: Going to be thrown at you.
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: Your cortosol goes up. Cortosole's got a thirty minute half life.
• 53:11
  Speaker 4: So if you're in bed and you look at your
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: phone like ah, look at the time, Ah that text email,
• 53:16
  Speaker 4: you can't do anything about it then, and your court
• 53:18
  Speaker 4: us all high and then you're lying there another thirty
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: minutes to go by, like go to sleep, and then
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: you squirt out more corters. Then we've all been in
• 53:24
  Speaker 4: that awful spiral where you're just like, oh, I just
• 53:27
  Speaker 4: want to kill myself.
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: Actually, the mind after midnight is another thing.
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: People who go to bed after one have a twenty
• 53:37
  Speaker 4: to forty percent higher odds of being diagnosed with a
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: psych psychiatric disorder, and a study eight years later they
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: were more likely to have developed a new mental health condition.
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: So wow, wow, that is master And kids that I
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: mean I had, so I have t well one of
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: them is no.
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: Twenty.
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: But I remember a few years ago when when Kira
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: was seventeen eighteen.
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: I would you know, we have a really.
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: Mobile phones all go on charge in the kitchen at
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: a certain time. And sometimes if I'd be up late,
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: which would be half tan for me, I'd be in
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: the kitchen out.
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: Of here, ding ding ding ding.
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: Books my kids' phones right, and I'd be like, the
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: next day, what time did that conversation? And and some
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: of my kids would go, oh, one am they stopped.
• 54:30
  Speaker 5: I'm like, what the hell?
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: Like teenagers up?
• 54:34
  Speaker 5: Like for the parents who are listening to this.
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: All right, So here's some really disconcerting evidence. So adole
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: liscens that were allowed to stay up until midnight or
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: later had twenty percent higher odds of suicidal thoughts, twenty
• 54:48
  Speaker 4: five percent higher odds of depression compared to those kids
• 54:52
  Speaker 4: who were made to go to bed at ten.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: Wow, there you go.
• 54:56
  Speaker 5: And do not kid yourself that your kid is.
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: Not on their mobile phone.
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: If you're allowed to have a mobile phone in their bedroom,
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: I think that's one of the junkies. I think it's
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: one of the worst behavioral habits of a parent is
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: not to insist that the kids have their phone.
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: It's cruel shut them down.
• 55:19
  Speaker 4: I can't even stop myself, Like how was like like
• 55:21
  Speaker 4: an unmilinated teenage brain supposed.
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: To do it?
• 55:24
  Speaker 4: Like you're literally you're literally opening a portal to the
• 55:28
  Speaker 4: worst shit on earth, like the worst pawn, the worst violence,
• 55:32
  Speaker 4: the worst of everything, into your vulnerable little kid's brain
• 55:37
  Speaker 4: when they have no impulse control, when they're already tired,
• 55:40
  Speaker 4: Like this is a recipe for madness. It's a Molotov
• 55:43
  Speaker 4: cocktail of insanity. Letting a kid have a phone in
• 55:47
  Speaker 4: their bedroom, Like, I'm a really laze fair parent, and
• 55:51
  Speaker 4: I wish I'd probably done more. I didn't realize, but
• 55:54
  Speaker 4: now if I was, you know, to do anything again,
• 55:56
  Speaker 4: it would get those bloody phones out of their bedroom.
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: We are we are Nazis about that, and I love that.
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: I'm going to put that as a quote in my workshops.
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: What did you call it?
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: A Molotov cocktail of insanity or something that's brilliant?
• 56:14
  Speaker 5: Do you have a last last question to ask you?
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: Naps?
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: That's a really good and really there's science.
• 56:21
  Speaker 4: Right, you can mess your day up really badly with
• 56:24
  Speaker 4: the badly times nap, or you can become a genius
• 56:27
  Speaker 4: with a well timed nap.
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: There you go and so how long and what about
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: the timing.
• 56:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so you you know you've got these old trading
• 56:36
  Speaker 4: rhythms throughout the day, like where you kind of like dip,
• 56:38
  Speaker 4: and yeah, most of people get to dip around two
• 56:40
  Speaker 4: to three.
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: You can use that to have a nap.
• 56:43
  Speaker 4: Don't nap after three unless you're a toddler, or you're sick,
• 56:47
  Speaker 4: or you're an elite athlete, because you're basically pushing out
• 56:50
  Speaker 4: your sleep sleep pressure that goes up during the day
• 56:53
  Speaker 4: and it'll mess up your whole psychoan rhythm.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: So if you do nap, there's really strict rules.
• 56:58
  Speaker 4: You should nap between ten twenty minutes and do not
• 57:02
  Speaker 4: do not do not nap between thirty and.
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: Forty if you want to lap longer and have a.
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: Full ninety minute cycle. If you get working up thirty
• 57:10
  Speaker 4: to forty minutes into it, you will know about it.
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: In sleep inertia, all your systems like out of whack.
• 57:16
  Speaker 4: So if you are worried about going to sleep and
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: you know waking up a bit later, there's a nap
• 57:22
  Speaker 4: espresso where you take a shot of coffee and then
• 57:25
  Speaker 4: by the time that caffeine hits your bloodstream it should
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: be around twenty minutes. I've buggered it because it takes
• 57:29
  Speaker 4: you well to get to sleep, and I've like, oh,
• 57:31
  Speaker 4: taken the coffee and then like finally for it and
• 57:33
  Speaker 4: I only had like, you know, seven minutes of sleep.
• 57:36
  Speaker 4: So be careful with it, like you know, factory and
• 57:39
  Speaker 4: how long it takes you to go to sleep.
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: But that's a good way of doing it.
• 57:42
  Speaker 4: But you know it particularly if you've had, you know,
• 57:45
  Speaker 4: something stressful happen, if you have you know, been drinking.
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: A good ninety minute sleep is you know, if you
• 57:52
  Speaker 4: really want to clean up your brain and you get
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: to that, you know, rem sleep where you file away
• 57:59
  Speaker 4: all your anxiety, that's that's a good ninety minute nap.
• 58:02
  Speaker 4: But yeah, it's you know, I feel guilty. I'm kind
• 58:07
  Speaker 4: of getting over the guilt about it. So if you
• 58:09
  Speaker 4: if you feel guilty, you can start with yoga Netra
• 58:12
  Speaker 4: or non sleep deep rest go on Google. If you
• 58:14
  Speaker 4: don't like the hippie like spiritual stuff, you can actually
• 58:18
  Speaker 4: ask Ai to create a audible for you, like in
• 58:21
  Speaker 4: your in a voice, and you can sort of, you know,
• 58:24
  Speaker 4: make it sound like how you want. Nano intermissions. You know,
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: it's just like closure ezed trying to get those alpha
• 58:30
  Speaker 4: brain waves. But yeah, napping is good. Yeah, thickly for
• 58:34
  Speaker 4: parents who've got young babies and you know you're exhausted.
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: Get it way, you can't get it way, you can't.
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: Actually, last question, sorry to keep it, but sleep restriction
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: therapy for.
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: People you have insomnia.
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: Let's let's let's let's talk about this because this is
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: pretty cool.
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: Yes, so what people what happens with insomnia?
• 58:54
  Speaker 4: People actually get this like Pavlovian conditioning to their beds
• 58:58
  Speaker 4: and bedroom and the thought of sleep because it's so
• 59:01
  Speaker 4: painful and it's so lonely, and it's excruciating to be
• 59:04
  Speaker 4: lying there hour after hour not being able to go
• 59:06
  Speaker 4: to sleep when you are absolutely cooked, exhausted. And so
• 59:11
  Speaker 4: what happens is you've got to decouple the anxiety to
• 59:14
  Speaker 4: the sleep space and all the function of going to sleep.
• 59:18
  Speaker 4: So what you've got to do is you've got to
• 59:20
  Speaker 4: anchor your wake time at six am, and you have
• 59:24
  Speaker 4: to restrict your sleep until like a much later bedtime.
• 59:29
  Speaker 4: So basically, you want to have a minimum of six
• 59:32
  Speaker 4: hours sleep, and in any less than that it could
• 59:36
  Speaker 4: be dangerous to operate machine or drive or anything. So
• 59:39
  Speaker 4: so I am only allowed to sleep six hours, and
• 59:43
  Speaker 4: so you say, you go, okay, six am, and then
• 59:46
  Speaker 4: you count six hours back and then that's the time
• 59:48
  Speaker 4: you go to sleep.
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: That's so midnight.
• 59:50
  Speaker 4: And then you do that until like you lie there
• 59:54
  Speaker 4: and then you are so exhausted.
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: By midnight that you fall asleep. And then what you do.
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: Ject if you do it night after night, right, if
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 3: you're a somnak, it doesn't work the first night, but
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: the second and third night you're going to be so
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 3: freaking sleep deprived.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and so but you can't nap during the day
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 4: and you cannot sleep in They're the two rules.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: And so eventually you will then.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 4: Slide at half an hour, so you get a bit
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 4: at eleven thirty, then at eleven and then so basically
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: you're retraining that associative conditioning and that you're sleep another
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 4: thing to do if you've got bad and somebody is
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 4: lie there. I think it was that out of Harvard. No,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 4: it was it was a study out of Oxford. You
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 4: lie there with the eyes of.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: Oh you keep trying to keep your eyes open.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, sleep yeap.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 4: Cognitive shuffling is a really good one. That's what I
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 4: use because I've got monkey mind. I'm like, my brain
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 4: just goes million miles an hour. That's exciting. I actually
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 4: get excited.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: I want to do this and do this.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 4: So, cognitive shuffling is when you take a word and like,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 4: so this is when you're really busy mind. You take
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 4: a word like slumber. Then you think of all the
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 4: non related words starting with S so sugar, sand, situation, slither,
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 4: and you kind of picture them in your head.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: And then when you run out of S words, you
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: go on to L you think all the words.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 3: You're giving your brain essentially a boring task and distracting
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: it from the stressful thoughts.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, because when you say don't think about that thing,
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 4: what does your brain? It's like you don't want to
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 4: think about that, and so you rarely get to R.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: I've never gotten to R.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 4: And like I'm like, I'm not a big sleeper and
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 4: I've got the busiest mind, and.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I think that's a really really good way.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: And while you're doing.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 4: The breathing, but I think it's just about being disciplined
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 4: and knowing that this is really important and that if
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 4: you fix your sleep, so many other things has fall
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 4: into place. You feel like exercising, you feel like eating
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 4: that because when you're sleep deprived you want fatty, salty,
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 4: sugary food. You feel like being nice to your friends.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 4: You know, I feel like having sex, which is you know,
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 4: a good sleep antidote. There's all these things that really
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 4: good things that happen if you just fix that's what
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 4: It's called sleep first.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: And that's it.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 5: So people, Robert Ludlum was right.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: Sleep is a weapon.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 6: So if you want to picture, if you want to
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 6: fix your life and get yourself onto Amazon or book
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 6: Toopia if you're in Australia and pre order is pre
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 6: order what's coming and.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 4: They think, actually some people are going to read it.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: It comes out in a couple of weeks, doesn't it
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: a few weeks?
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: Sixteenth of July is.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: Okay to get the order? Have you done an audible?
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: Oh yes, it was excruciating.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: It's it's like, did you have the audition to to read?
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: Because I had the audition to read my own book.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 4: I know, I thought, but you could have a voice
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 4: like a chainsaw so you can understand what no idea.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 4: It's tough though, Yeah, yeah, that was I was getting
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 4: crazy room sleep after it's always my brain was like,
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 4: they're freaking out. But I think I sound like Jamae Off,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 4: you know, Summer Heights High, Hi, I'm doctor.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: King like I'm like, oh.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 5: I have actually never listened to my own book podcast.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: So all good. So Jamma, thank you.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 3: This has been a long time coming but more than
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: worth it. So sleep, get yourself onto sleep first, and
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: go short your life at people.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: Thanks very much, Jemma, thank you. Thanks for having me.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: Thank you.