Latest / The Kink Consultant / The Pleasure Protocol: BDSM, Coaching, and the Psychology of Power with Shelby Devlin

Transcript

The Pleasure Protocol: BDSM, Coaching, and the Psychology of Power with Shelby Devlin · The Kink Consultant

0:00
It's the King Consultant Podcast where we're turning up the heat
0:02
on all things kink and dating, relationships and cop culture.
0:05
So close the door, plug in your headphones, and let's get down
0:08
to it. Hello everyone, and welcome to
0:10
this week's episode of the King Consultant Podcast.
0:13
It is my pleasure to welcome on Shelby Devlin.
0:15
She is a Somatica certified Sex and relationship coach as well.
0:19
We were both certified through Somatica, so she's a BDSM coach
0:22
and somatic sex educator with 20 years of experience guiding
0:26
others through erotic transformation.
0:28
Welcome, Shelby. Thank you, Amanda.
0:30
I'm so happy to be here. I am delighted to have you here.
0:34
You will probably not remember the first time we ever were in
0:37
the same room together, but in coaching classes you were the
0:41
person who was brought on to talk about BDSM as a specialty.
0:45
When I was going through my Somatica, I think maybe Core and
0:48
Advanced and I am now a group leader for Core and the same
0:53
thing. It's funny to do this now
0:55
because the same thing happens every time Shelby comes on to
0:58
teach a class and everyone loses their shit because she is so
1:02
amazing. I just want to explain for
1:04
everyone listening. When you do Somatica, it's a
1:06
training course for sex and relationship coaches, and they
1:08
do bring Shelby on to talk about BDSM.
1:11
And I think it just lights people up about this topic.
1:14
And that's what excites me so much because I think you
1:16
introduce it to new audiences all the time through your work.
1:20
And then coaches have a better ability to work with people who
1:24
are kinky. And that's my passion is I just
1:26
want King to be accessible to everyone.
1:28
And you're like the first domino that falls, so that's awesome.
1:31
OK, tell me about how the first domino fell for you.
1:34
Honestly, I think the first domino fell when I was playing
1:38
with my Barbies. Barbies got tied up a whole lot.
1:42
And I'm not totally sure where this came from.
1:45
It must have been from some cartoons that I watched.
1:48
But Barbies would get abducted. They would be, you know, held
1:52
hostage. There would be like rescue
1:54
scenarios. Sometimes there would be a
1:56
little like non consensual touching of Barbie by the evil
2:00
Ken doll. And so I think that kind of that
2:02
power play and like bondage was something that I didn't really
2:08
know what I was doing, I think when I was little, but I was
2:12
like playing with those themes with my dolls.
2:15
And then around the age of 14, I discovered and Rice's Sleeping
2:19
Beauty series, 14 year old me, I discovered those books.
2:23
And for those of you who are not familiar, it is hardcore fantasy
2:28
BDSM. Like pretty intense BDSM.
2:32
Otherworldly. Levels.
2:34
Yeah, BDSM, a lot of consensual non consent and just non
2:38
consent, non consent. It's very rich in a lot of BDSM
2:41
themes. So I read that as a young
2:43
adolescent and I was like, this is it, this is the jam.
2:47
And so when I started to explore sexually with my peers, no one
2:52
knew about those books. No one shared my interests.
2:56
Like I would kind of like make a small request from one of my
2:59
boyfriends in high school and they'd either like freeze or
3:03
shut down or my high school boyfriend my senior year, he's
3:06
the first person I came out to and he's about being bisexual.
3:10
And he's also the first person I came out to really in earnest
3:13
about being kinky. And he had a meltdown and shamed
3:16
me and was just so judgmental. And I'm not totally sure how
3:21
this happened, but I remember I wanted him to pull my hair and
3:24
he like had a meltdown about it. And while he was going off
3:27
about, I was like, you know what, I think something's wrong
3:29
with you. I don't think anything's wrong
3:30
with me. And so I kind of just like put a
3:32
pin in it and then tried to experiment a little bit more
3:36
after high school. And then nothing really gelled
3:39
until I moved to San Francisco and I met queer people who were
3:42
into BDSM. And then I started to explore
3:45
and I explored with, I dated someone who was a spanko.
3:48
So this person that I dated, they were really into spanking
3:51
and I get spanked for like 45 minutes, but then they were less
3:54
into orgasm. And so then I was kind of left
3:56
hanging. I did a lot of experimenting in
3:59
my early 20s and just tried pretty much everything once just
4:03
to see if I would like it. So I learned a lot about how
4:06
people negotiate. I learned a lot about what's out
4:08
there in BDSM and kink. I learned a lot about what I
4:12
liked, and I learned a fair bit about what I didn't like.
4:14
But every experience was valuable.
4:17
So for several years, you know, I just experimented with
4:21
partners and I went to fetish events and Mission Control and
4:25
power exchange and things like that.
4:26
I have about, I think, 22 or 23. I started working at Stormy
4:31
Leather, which is a now defunct fetish boutique in Soma in the
4:36
leather district. And so we had all this different
4:39
types of fetish gear and, you know, sex toys.
4:41
But we also taught classes in the basement, and I assisted in
4:46
a lot of those classes. And that's where I started to
4:48
get more of a formal education in BDSM and kink.
4:51
Well, that's awesome that you got it through that.
4:53
I got it through like working at a dungeon, but like you got the
4:56
like real purpose of, hey, this is to educate and I think
4:59
there's a slight difference in that.
5:01
Yeah, absolutely. The way I learned was personal
5:04
exploration as well as like formal training classes.
5:09
And in more of a dungeon space, there is a formal training, but
5:12
it's much more to the discretion of the Dom you're with at the
5:15
time. Each dungeon, if they're run by
5:18
a group of Doms or one Dom, they have their own way of doing
5:21
things. Sometimes it can be kind of
5:23
exploitative, you know, and so it can be a mixed bag when it
5:27
happens in a bubble. Just to go back for a second,
5:30
your Barbie story, first of all, those are like the fantasies I
5:33
have now, not as a Barbie, but as me as the Barbie.
5:35
Do you think you were Born This Way or exposed?
5:38
The answer really is a combination of nature and
5:41
nurture. I don't think that we're born
5:43
craving a particular type of sexual exploration, but I do
5:47
believe that the experiences that we have as a young person
5:50
shape our personality, how we interact with the world, and our
5:54
missing experiences. And I think if stars are aligned
5:58
and you have the right set of experiences, then you're more
6:00
likely to be interested in media cake.
6:03
And so I think that what happened for me as a young
6:07
person was power was a theme that came up for me early on in
6:11
my development. And I was also very curious.
6:15
I stole my dad's Playboys starting at the age of four.
6:18
And I don't think that all children are necessarily curious
6:22
in the same ways. I can't recall anything that was
6:25
like a direct exposure to BDS them until I read and Rice's
6:29
books. I don't think I saw pornography
6:32
or my parents doing something kinky or any older person
6:38
sharing something inappropriate with me.
6:41
I think it's something that was just kind of innate because
6:44
power was a theme for me early on.
6:46
That's so interesting that you mentioned that I actually had my
6:48
mom on the podcast to find out if she knew I was a spank.
6:51
Oh, so I just asked her directly, like, did you know I
6:54
was super into spanking? And we talked about how, for me,
6:57
power was a theme and how I just really didn't want to be a kid.
7:00
I wanted to have the power growing up.
7:02
And so like, I called her Angela because I was like, no, you
7:04
don't get to be called mom. You don't get some special name.
7:07
Like we're all equal here. But I think I was born kinky.
7:10
But to your point, I also say that like I was born with the
7:13
spanking fetish. That's my opinion.
7:15
But what I do say is that the relationships I had and the
7:18
experiences I have are why I look for the specific dynamics I
7:21
look for. So like similar to what you're
7:23
saying, it's sort of that exposure.
7:25
That's the nurture piece for the dynamics I seek out and the play
7:29
I enjoy. I.
7:30
Think people can get really caught up in the reasons like
7:32
why what's the origin story when, when was the seed planted?
7:36
And I think that there's some fun and entertainment and kind
7:41
of digging through our past experiences and trying to figure
7:43
out like why we are the way we are.
7:45
But ultimately figuring doesn't change anything.
7:48
So whether you're boring with it, whether it's learned
7:50
experience, you know, or experience that develops slowly
7:53
over time, we like what we like, right?
7:55
And I think that's the important thing is figuring out what you
7:58
like and finding ways to embrace it and have a fulfilling
8:01
experience no matter what anyone says.
8:04
I totally love that answer and I completely appreciate it because
8:07
it doesn't make a difference in how I'm experiencing and living
8:10
it now. It's like as long as I learned
8:12
to embrace it and love it, which is something that was part of my
8:15
personal journey, like I was not not in love with the fact that I
8:18
needed to seek out spanking until much older.
8:21
And now it's like the best part of my life.
8:23
I'm assuming you also moved into an educator role in the store
8:26
you were working in, is that correct?
8:28
Or were you sort of like just working there and assisting and
8:31
moved on with your career in a different direction?
8:33
I want to understand that transition.
8:35
Right. So I was never teaching classes,
8:37
but I started giving talks in the basement occasionally and I
8:41
was always kind of assisting whoever was instructing.
8:44
So I felt like I was learning by doing and just taking the class,
8:47
but also learning by helping. So I didn't get any opportunity
8:51
at Stormy Leather to start teaching BDSM to anyone.
8:55
And what was the transition then or the time between your working
9:00
there? But also then taking Somatica
9:02
which I don't even know like Somatica changed.
9:05
I took it online during COVID period that like I think I
9:08
started in 2021. Were you an online student?
9:11
An in person student? That was in person.
9:14
I think that was one of the last cohort that was in person, but I
9:18
was a very large cohort where there was about 100 of us and it
9:21
was in person on Treasure Island.
9:23
How I ended up there was I was kind of flirted with the idea of
9:27
sex therapy as a profession. And so after I left Stormy
9:32
Leather, I was working at a Cafe and then I got married and I was
9:36
a housewife for two years. How was that for you?
9:39
Was that a fulfilling experience for two years?
9:42
It was the absolute worst. It was not the right thing for
9:46
me at all, but sometimes we have to learn things the hard way and
9:50
I learned a lot of things about myself the hard way.
9:52
So I was a housewife for a couple of years and then my
9:54
relationship and did my marriage ended and I was just kind of
9:58
picking up the pieces of my life.
10:00
I had been out of the workforce for like actually like 5 years,
10:03
not two years. And I was like, what am I gonna
10:04
do with my life? And I kept returning to this
10:06
idea of therapy and relationship, working in
10:10
relationships and sex. And every program I looked into,
10:13
it was just like, you can't really be there for someone
10:15
without touching them or how do you like, teach certain skills
10:18
with these certain barriers? And then a friend of mine was
10:21
like, have you heard of Somatica?
10:22
I was like, no, I haven't, what is this?
10:24
And then I started researching their website and I had a phone
10:27
call with Danielle and I was like, OK, this is it.
10:29
This is the thing I've been looking for.
10:31
This is the path forward. When I was taking the Somatica
10:36
program, the core training, it was like 4 or five days once a
10:40
quarter spread over a year. And then there there were the
10:44
advanced classes, like following years after you did the core
10:47
training. It was intense.
10:49
Those like 5 days of being like in that huge group and doing all
10:52
the exercises in person. It was just really, it was an
10:55
emotional Crucible. I mean, that's what Somatica,
10:58
just like is putting a fist into your body and just sort of
11:01
grabbing it and shaking a little bit and feeling like, let's see
11:03
what's in here. What have you been ignoring?
11:05
I didn't realize that because when I took it, it was one
11:08
weekend a month for like 6 or seven months in a row because it
11:10
was online. That makes so much more sense
11:13
for people who want to fly in to just do it in a five day chunk.
11:17
It sounds like you had a positive, albeit intense,
11:20
experience with Somatica. Yeah, It was one of the most
11:23
transformative experiences of my entire life, probably the most
11:26
transformative. I learned a lot about myself.
11:28
I learned a lot about relationships.
11:30
I could retroactively, like, take a look at all these
11:33
experiences that I had. And I was like, oh, that's what
11:35
was going on there. And this is what I could have
11:36
done differently. I was very lucky to be just kind
11:39
of ready to start doing the work as soon as I got certified.
11:43
I also am a massage therapist and so I was kind of like
11:47
putting those two things together at the beginning of my
11:50
practice. So doing a lot of like trauma
11:52
body work, connect to the bodies, gain embodiment through
11:56
like Somatica tools and massage therapy.
11:58
Tools, that's such a good mix. I do not have that massage
12:01
therapy thing, but it's funny you mention it because I'm
12:03
thinking I really would like to add that in and just even to
12:07
have a deeper understanding of the body and where we're holding
12:09
tension and how we're moving our bodies would be so helpful for
12:13
even my practice. Oh, I love that.
12:15
Yeah, I recommend it if you're curious about it.
12:17
I definitely am. I use those skills every day in
12:20
my practice. OK.
12:22
And you did core and advanced before starting your practice?
12:25
Or did you go straight in? Yes, I did core and advanced
12:29
before I started my practice. And then I think two or three
12:33
years after I started practicing, I took core again to
12:36
just like brush up and make sure that I was kind of using the
12:41
tools and the way that they had intended.
12:43
I just wanted some of like the, you know, some of the teachers
12:45
and Celeste and Danielle and Dimitri to like just watch me
12:49
doing practice sessions to give me feedback.
12:52
Oh, that's amazing. I just went back as a group
12:54
leader, but I'm learning through that.
12:56
But yeah, just getting that extra feedback and practicing
12:59
with people and having someone watch is super helpful.
13:02
If you've ever thought about doing what I do, becoming a
13:05
certified Sex and Relationship coach, this is your sign.
13:08
The next Somatica certification training starts this month on
13:12
October 24th, and you can get $750 off your enrollment with
13:16
code TKC 25. Somatica is the world's leading
13:19
sex and relationship coach. Training and getting this
13:21
certification completely changed my life.
13:24
It not only helped me become the King Consultant, it's also where
13:27
I learned to connect deeper, communicate better, and guide
13:29
people toward pleasure without shame.
13:31
Let pleasure be your guide on an exciting new career.
13:34
Sign up today at somaticainstitute.com and use
13:37
code TKC 25 for $750 off. Jumping ahead slightly, I am
13:43
going to come back to your practice because I was also
13:45
lucky enough to do an intensive with you.
13:47
So for anyone who does Somatica Core, and I was one of them, you
13:51
can sign up for specific intensives and one of them is
13:54
yours in BDS MB. DSM in Kate, yes.
13:57
That was transformative. As someone who has worked in a
14:00
dungeon, been a professional dominatrix, a professional
14:02
submissive, A practicing coach, I got so much from that class of
14:07
hands on experience and just the ability to humiliate people went
14:11
like through the roof based on that class.
14:14
And I'd love to know how. I really think that you took the
14:17
Somatica tools, but then you also just put your own spin on
14:21
it and brought BDSM to it. I kind of just want you to talk
14:24
about your theory and how you applied it and how you mixed the
14:27
two together because I was obsessed and I learned so much
14:30
being sort of adjacent, having specialized in King after like
14:33
my practice is very kink focused.
14:35
But then I came to your class and I was like, wow, this is
14:38
like deep on the psychological side of BDSM too.
14:41
One of the things that I love about Somatica is the client arc
14:45
that they teach. Not only do they teach you all
14:48
of these tools that you can use in your practice, they
14:50
demonstrate how you can put these tools together in a
14:53
comprehensive order so that you help clients build skills and
14:58
insight at the rate that they need to achieve the goals that
15:02
they want to achieve. Figuring out diagnostically,
15:05
like what they need to work on to do the thing or have the
15:08
thing that they want. And so I used that kind of that
15:11
model that Somatica gives us with BDSM.
15:15
And I thought about not only my own personal experiences, but
15:19
like when I've talked to BDSM educators or kink educators
15:23
about where they get stuck with clients, like, oh, I wouldn't
15:26
have done that with him if I had known that's what he really, you
15:28
know, he didn't want that. One of my gifts is that I helped
15:32
people feel really safe to be themselves.
15:36
So in my personal experiences, I've done a lot of weird and
15:39
kinky shit because I've helped people feel safe enough to tell
15:42
me about what they want. And so that's kind of where I
15:45
start with my clients and helping them figure out what
15:49
they want, what they think they want to experience, and then
15:51
what is getting in the way of it.
15:53
And then for a lot of people that want to explore VDSM or
15:57
kink, there is a certain level of like fear and shame.
15:59
And so I designed a protocol basically to combat fear and
16:04
shame while building confidence simultaneously so that by the
16:09
time we're doing scenes, people feel excited, you know, to
16:14
finally dip their toe in and they're not worried that
16:17
something is going to go terribly wrong.
16:19
Yeah, the worry is also there. The worry of like, I think even
16:23
coming back from a scene and just feeling embarrassed or
16:26
shamed jokingly that post nut clarity, like because I can't
16:30
really think of like a better description for myself coming
16:33
out of a scene. But yeah, it's sort of that safe
16:35
space is everything for people who feel that, in my experience.
16:39
Absolutely, you know, and this is something that I really, you
16:42
know, try to stress to new coaches who want to work with
16:46
clients around kink is that you need to be prepared for any sort
16:50
of fallout because you can't predict people's emotional
16:53
responses to finally getting the thing that they've been craving.
16:58
So making a plan for that of like if this, then this really
17:02
helps not only like maintain the container for BDSM, but it
17:08
maintains the coaching container and it also helps the coaches
17:11
feel prepared to deal with these dark, scary themes.
17:16
And they can be kind of dark because they are someone's
17:20
innermost sinking's and they're bringing them out.
17:22
And sometimes they even just seem dark because we've never
17:25
heard them before. But once you process with it is
17:27
it's like, Oh yeah, that totally tracks.
17:29
I totally get where you're coming from and what that is.
17:32
Yeah, the connecting with someone around are dark desires.
17:35
They are no longer are scary because they're not.
17:38
Mysterious anymore? Yeah.
17:40
Demystifying it is part of it. I think it's just like, yeah, I
17:43
like to describe it as, like, pulling it out to the forefront.
17:46
Like, I enjoy scenes with themes of jealousy or shame.
17:50
I enjoy being shamed because I feel I put that on myself and I
17:53
hold it in. And if we can pull that out into
17:56
the light and play with it, I feel less scared of it or more
17:59
empowered by it. That's where all the fun is for
18:01
me. That's where my fun have you
18:03
found that being a coach and doing this work has changed how
18:08
you enjoy BDSM as a self practitioner in your own
18:12
relationships and how you connect with people?
18:14
I. Think it certainly has.
18:16
I think that guiding people through BDSM professionally has
18:20
helped me be a better communicator personally.
18:25
And it's definitely given me a lot more practice so I can take
18:28
people right to the edge so much faster and so much easier.
18:33
And I also have now I have this like wellspring of ideas, you
18:37
know, of all these things that I've done because I've been
18:39
with, you know, I've worked with so many different types of
18:41
people now I have this massive list in my head that I can pull
18:45
out at anytime and just dazzle someone.
18:47
So it makes me feel like I have, you know, a superpower for sure.
18:51
Oh, you definitely do. So like one thing that I took
18:53
away from your class was your ability to populate a menu like
18:56
that for someone. If they gave you one small
18:59
thing, you were like, let me get my laundry list out and roll.
19:03
You know, those like old parchments of like, what do you
19:05
want on the list here? I loved that because I was like,
19:07
Oh my gosh, you just went in 13 different directions at one time
19:12
and opened up someone's world. Yeah, I'm so glad that you got
19:16
to witness that. And that's definitely how I feel
19:19
when I am working with someone new or if I have a new lover.
19:22
I can ask the right questions in the right order and get exactly
19:25
what I need to just dazzle them. It feels magical when you
19:29
witness it from the outside or when you're experiencing it for
19:32
the first time. But it honestly, it comes from
19:34
just, you know, 20 years of dedication and practice.
19:39
You know, that's what mastery looks like.
19:41
Where someone could say like, oh, I don't like being spanked
19:44
and choked. And it wouldn't be so bad if you
19:46
called me a good girl. I'm like, oh great, this is 10
19:49
things that we're going to do today, right?
19:50
And it is sort of like watching a master chef or something just
19:54
put all the pieces together. And I've gotten that feedback
19:56
because obviously I know other people who have gone and done
19:58
the course since I went to your mastery class.
20:01
And I've heard different stories and they're.
20:02
Fascinating of like, I mean, especially when someone wants
20:05
something what I consider a little bit nebulous.
20:08
And that's what I think is so impressive.
20:09
But they're like, well, I like humiliation.
20:12
And then you'll ask like a further question to clarify.
20:14
And then I see you go in and you're like, OK, let me parse
20:16
this out in my head. And then you come back and
20:18
you're like and seen, you know, it's impressive.
20:21
Thank you. Are you ever stumped anymore?
20:25
When do people still bring you new things?
20:27
I mean, I'm very rarely surprised by something, and I'm
20:31
excited when I am surprised because I love to learn.
20:34
Novelty is inherently exciting, so it is rare when I am
20:38
surprised. But as far as being stumped, not
20:41
anymore. Here's a caveat.
20:43
If I feel stumped, it's because someone either is not being
20:49
honest with me or they don't actually want what they keep
20:54
saying they want. I have a client that I've been
20:56
working with for about two years and we were getting into some
21:00
really heavy humiliated degradation scenes.
21:04
And afterwards he's just a mess. And he just would have this
21:09
horrible shame over. And I was just like, this is not
21:11
working. You know, you feeling bad
21:14
afterwards is a sign that it's not working.
21:17
And so at first you have to kind of go along with what the client
21:19
wants within reason, within your arteries and like, you know,
21:22
with the mandate of not doing any harm, but you have to kind
21:25
of go with what the client wants at first.
21:27
So you build some like trust and safety, right?
21:30
And pull on that thread a little bit.
21:32
And then one day I was like, look, I hear what you're telling
21:34
me what you want, and we've been doing what you want.
21:37
Now I'm going to give you something completely different
21:40
and let's see what it feels like.
21:42
And at this point, we had enough trust.
21:44
And he knew that I understood what he wanted and he knew, you
21:48
know, he could call his safe words.
21:49
So we were we were golden. Why did a completely different
21:52
scene in which he was only getting praise and all the
21:55
punishment was a way for me to be delighted by him.
21:58
And after that scene, there was all the tears and he was like,
22:02
Oh my God, it felt so different. It was amazing.
22:05
There was no shame over. There was no guilt.
22:07
He's excited about our next session.
22:09
I was like, OK, what's happening here is that feeling you have
22:14
felt like you've needed punishment after every time you
22:17
masturbate or explore kink. And so punishment has been
22:21
connected to your turn on, you know, because you punish
22:24
yourself after you get something that feels good.
22:27
So now you don't need to be punished anymore.
22:30
So we took that ending out so you could just haven't
22:33
fulfillment. And so that's an example of like
22:35
me kind of getting stuck, but I, I trusted that something wasn't
22:40
right. It didn't feel right to me, you
22:42
know, and trusting my instincts is a is a big part of why I'm so
22:45
successful at guiding people through this process.
22:48
And it is so much about instincts.
22:49
And that helped you? It sounds like you rewrote his
22:52
narrative for him or like worked with him to rewrite his
22:55
narrative. Yeah, we're still working on it.
22:57
I can say happily that after our sessions together, there isn't a
23:02
shape came over anymore. There's no longer the guilt and
23:05
the difficult feelings and the worry that I'm going to reject
23:08
him because of what we did in a BDSM scene.
23:11
Wow, it's so beautiful that you were able to take him to that
23:14
point where like, that's where the true enjoyment is then when
23:17
you learn to accept it. So a lot of my listeners are new
23:21
to kink or just interested in exploring it.
23:23
Do you have any advice for newbies or for people who aren't
23:27
so experienced with scene creation but are dying to get
23:30
their hands on it and try new things?
23:32
Yeah, if I had to like kind of whittle it down or distill it
23:36
down to a couple of like key points, one piece of advice is
23:41
to go slowly. People go too fast, they go too
23:45
intense or they move too fast in a scene.
23:48
And only when we move slowly can we actually physically feel, but
23:52
emotionally feel what we're experiencing.
23:55
When we get anxious or when we get really excited and turned
23:59
on, we speed up. And that speed up, especially in
24:02
the beginning, makes us bypass the experience completely and
24:07
we're more likely to get injured or cross a boundary or kind of
24:12
miss it cue, you know, if we're speeding up.
24:15
So my advice to people when you're first starting out is
24:17
pick one thing to explore at a time and really lean into it.
24:22
Savor it. Explore this one thing.
24:25
Let's see spanking as an example.
24:27
The first time you spank someone, go slowly, build up
24:30
momentum, build up a rod, take your time.
24:34
You know you don't have to spank someone as hard as you can for
24:37
like 3 minutes and then your hand hurts and you can't do it
24:39
anymore. That's not hot, right?
24:42
You can do a whole scene of just a slow seductive spanking with
24:47
like a lot of teasing. Oh, absolutely.
24:49
And it feels as a lifelong spank.
24:51
Oh, it feels just as good to have that like that teasing that
24:55
ebb and flow, getting turned on right now, especially by the
24:58
word savor, right? Because that takes it away from
25:02
just being, well, you're in learning period right now.
25:04
No, you're in savoring period. So just.
25:06
Exactly. Lean in, yeah.
25:08
Because BDSM is first and foremost about pleasure.
25:12
It absolutely is. That's what we're doing here.
25:15
And sometimes pain is pleasurable, sometimes
25:17
degradation is pleasurable, or humiliation.
25:19
Sometimes being locked in the tiny box is pleasurable, right?
25:22
There's so many different ways that we can explore pleasure,
25:26
but we're not going to feel any pleasure if we're moving too
25:29
fast. No.
25:30
In fact, it's all the other negative things you mentioned at
25:33
the beginning. It's yeah.
25:35
There's. Just areas that you it's, it's
25:37
kind of like stepping on a mine, a landmine or something.
25:40
So right, you take your time, you navigate the.
25:43
Other piece of advice that I have that I think is so
25:45
important is understanding that a good submissive is not
25:50
supposed to do everything they're dominant wants them to
25:53
do. That is not what dominance and
25:55
submission is. If there isn't a negotiation and
25:59
consent and whatever the dominant plans for the
26:03
submissive is in service to the submissive's pleasure that it
26:06
isn't really BDSM, right? So a lot of people get stuck
26:09
exploring BDSM or power dynamics and the dominant says like, you
26:13
have to do this because I'm the dominant and you're the
26:15
submissive, and that's just an abusive relationship.
26:18
That's not a fun. Sexy game.
26:20
Oh 100%. I always say without negotiation
26:23
and consent, you're just being a Dick.
26:25
Yeah. Even in negotiation, I think
26:27
people don't really understand that just because you're
26:29
dominant wants something doesn't mean you have to give it to
26:32
them. And if they pressure you into
26:34
it, or if they tell you that's the scene isn't going to be hot
26:37
for them. If this element isn't part of
26:39
it, then you're not operating with a dominant, you're
26:42
operating with a selfish lover. Oh yeah.
26:45
Which is a crime. It is an absolute crime.
26:48
No one wants a selfish lover who's not like having those
26:51
conversations and being in it for each other.
26:54
You did say something. It's not an insert submission.
26:57
Do you have easy, clear and cut definitions of what dominance
27:01
and submission is? Dominance and submission is
27:04
consensual role play with power dynamics, and so dominance is
27:09
being a leader in a sexual encounter, and submission is
27:14
surrendering to an experience. That's so beautifully put.
27:17
I have never put submission as surrending to an experience, but
27:21
you're 100% correct. And it's a poetic, yeah.
27:24
Yeah, I just made it up. Yeah, no, I like it a lot
27:26
because I describe myself even as an experienced junkie, both
27:29
on the Dom and subside. But surrendering to an
27:32
experience, it's really is what submission is.
27:34
Question two, you described the arc of a scene.
27:38
For newbies who are interested in creating scenes, we're
27:41
delving into this and they don't feel they've done it before.
27:44
Do you have any advice on scene creation or how to make it fun
27:48
and safe? So after you've done
27:50
negotiation, boundaries, safe words, you get all the consent,
27:55
have a plan for aftercare. You just take, you know, you
27:58
create what I like to call an erotic menu, which is this, you
28:01
know, a, you know, tool. You create an erotic menu of
28:05
like, you know, a list of like 5 to 10 things that you both want
28:08
to explore that you both will enjoy.
28:10
And then the dominant will take three or four of those menu
28:14
items and think about what they want to do in what order and how
28:18
you're going to transition from A to B to C to D.
28:21
And that's your scene. That's it.
28:24
If you do 10 things in a scene and you're a new player, you are
28:28
going to get overwhelmed. You're going to go too fast and
28:32
you're going to, if you're just starting out, choose three
28:35
things that you want to do. I want to use leather restraints
28:39
and give a spanking and force blowjob.
28:43
That's a great scene, right? Yeah.
28:45
What order do you want that to go in?
28:47
How are you going to transition between those three things?
28:50
How do you want it to end? That's enough.
28:52
It doesn't take hours to plan that scene, and it shouldn't
28:56
take you hours to plan a scene when you're just starting out.
28:59
Leave that later on you know once you've built up enough
29:02
skills and you have enough knowledge of your partner, then
29:05
you can make more elaborate plans.
29:08
Completely. And if I can just add, if you
29:11
have a plan of four things and you only get to 2, it's not a
29:14
failure of a sea. Totally.
29:17
You're in the moment. As long as you're both enjoying
29:20
yourselves each other, that's a successful scene.
29:23
Yeah, absolutely. That happens to me all the time.
29:26
I'll have like 3 or 4 things that I want to do with a client
29:28
and then we'll get into it. I'm like, Oh no, 2 is enough.
29:31
We're not moving on from this. This is where we are, you know,
29:34
or I get to the third thing and it's not great.
29:37
And so I go back to the second thing, I'm like, OK, we're just
29:39
going to erase that third thing back to what works.
29:42
The amount of stuff that is true in BDSM and is also just true in
29:46
life, like if things get a little complex and it's not
29:48
working, go back to the last thing that worked and then see
29:50
if you want to go in a different direction or.
29:53
Slow down, pause, back up. Don't speed up.
29:56
Don't do more, you know. I'm always entertained by how
30:00
it's like, Oh no, BDSM is just like life vice versa, you know,
30:03
just go back to what worked. It's a good plan that is super
30:06
helpful. This is possibly one of the most
30:08
common questions I get. Most popular questions I get on
30:10
a weekly basis. How do I tell my partner I'm
30:14
into this and like insert whatever like kink is what they
30:17
mean? I don't often get specifics.
30:19
What is your advice to people who ask that very common
30:22
question? My advice is to choose one thing
30:25
that you want to do, one thing you want to explore with your
30:28
partner, and you initiate a conversation like you're
30:31
inviting them to something fun because the energy that we bring
30:35
to those disclosure conversations is contagious.
30:38
So if I come up to you, Amanda, and I'm like, I really want you
30:41
to pull my hair, you know, and I'm pouting about it and I feel
30:45
like it's a weird thing to ask and you're going to say no,
30:48
you're going to be on guard as soon as I walk up to you, right?
30:51
It's true. Because I love pulling hair.
30:52
And I was like, I don't know if I want to pull her hair right
30:55
now with that energy. You're right, yeah.
30:57
But if I sit down and see on the couch and I put my arm around
31:01
you and I'm like, I would love for you to pull my hair tonight.
31:03
Are you into that? I think I'd be into anything if
31:06
you said it in that tone of voice, so.
31:08
Yes, yeah. If you think it's going to be
31:10
fun, show them that you think it's going to be fun, right?
31:15
Yeah. Like, hey, what do you think
31:17
about Tie me up? Would that be fun?
31:19
Let's do a fun thing. Let's do something weird.
31:21
Let's go crazy. You're 100% right.
31:23
Even you say that reminds me of like an ex who one day came
31:26
home, he was like, you know, it would be really fun if we went
31:28
to bed early tonight and he had me so stoked up on then.
31:31
He was very serious about just going to bed early thing.
31:35
I knew that whatever he was going to say, I was going to
31:37
like I was on the hook there and I was like, yeah, let's do it.
31:40
Let's try talk about going wild. So once you invite them to do
31:43
something fun, don't take it seriously.
31:46
If it's the first time you're doing something together, it's
31:48
not going to be perfect. Give yourself permission to
31:51
laugh and smile and be like, oh it's OK, try again.
31:54
Make the stakes lower so that they're more likely to feel
31:58
comfortable during the experience and more willing to
32:00
try again to work. Or it's perfection or like
32:04
satisfying that fantasy. If it's pass fail, then you're
32:09
most likely going to fail. Oh.
32:11
It's so true 100% again love how you put that because it's such a
32:15
simple way of explaining it. I'm going to speak for myself as
32:18
a submissive who made the mistakes early on.
32:21
I was so obsessed with my own fantasy that I forgot to take
32:25
myself out of it and realize one, I'm dealing with another
32:28
person and I've been obsessing over this for 15 years or 10
32:33
years. They haven't.
32:34
So this is all new to them and I need to bring grace to this and
32:38
like let them mess up. Let me mess up.
32:41
You know, it doesn't need to be word perfect or I've built a
32:44
fantasy for 15 years. Let's just realize that's a
32:47
fantasy. And now I'm getting to be
32:49
excited and live the reality, even if it doesn't match up.
32:52
That reminds me, I had this client Amanda, and he had very
32:55
rigid fantasies, like, and they were very complicated and
32:58
involved a lot of year, but it also involved a 30 minute script
33:02
that he sent to me like 20 minutes before our session
33:05
started. And he's like, these are the
33:06
things I want you to say. And I was like, dude, well, this
33:09
is our whole session is talking about this script.
33:11
Yeah, you know, like, how do I fucking memorize this in 20
33:14
minutes? Can I read it?
33:15
You know, like while we're in our scene and I kind of pointed
33:18
out like, I am going to fail, Like I'm set up to fail today.
33:21
And he's like, what? You don't want to do it?
33:23
And I'm like, that's not what I said.
33:25
It's like, I can't, I literally can't memorize this.
33:28
I I can't do what you want to do because I haven't had time to
33:32
prepare. I love that he did have a script
33:34
though, I'm not going to lie. The script for all the script.
33:38
Was it medical by any chance? No, it was not medical, but he
33:42
could have been into that. But no, it was not medical.
33:44
We didn't do any medical. Play.
33:45
I had a client when I worked at the dungeon and the only reason
33:48
he chose me, I don't think I was his body type.
33:50
I don't think he was his anything.
33:52
And like there's a lot of diversity in what people are
33:53
into. I'm totally down with that.
33:55
But one day he told me he was like, I pick you because you
33:57
memorized the script the best. And it was the same script every
34:01
week. But yes, I've learned it over
34:02
time, not in 20 minutes. Those are like my favorite
34:05
examples though, of just sort of like you're being met with
34:07
someone who is. They're so specific.
34:10
So specific, yeah. I love specificity in this
34:13
because I always find it interesting.
34:14
I'm like my brain zeros. Then I'm like, oh, tell me more
34:17
about why the rubber glove is an important part of this scene.
34:20
Right. From what I understand and just
34:23
following you a little bit, you've taken this work, but
34:26
you've moved past it. You've taken your knowledge of
34:29
BDSM and taken out into the real world to help people not just
34:34
explore their own fantasies, but you are an expert witness.
34:38
I'm an expert witness for criminal cases involving BDSM.
34:42
So what that means is that if someone uses BDSM as a defense,
34:48
So I'm hired to educate the district attorneys that are
34:52
working on the case, like answer their questions about BDSM or
34:55
the detectives that are working on the case because they're most
34:58
of the time they're not BDSM experts, right?
35:00
So they have a lot of curiosity and they're like, is this a
35:02
crime? In most cases, I go through the
35:04
evidence and then I write a report and get my professional
35:07
opinion about like what is BDSM and what is not BDSM.
35:11
And then in some cases I also testify and bring the jury.
35:14
So they get to hear about BDSM from an expert as well.
35:19
Which is an amazing thing to be able to do.
35:23
If you are testifying in front of a jury, are you thrown
35:26
questions that you haven't been prepared for or just sort of
35:29
like asked your opinion? I know you do the research but
35:33
like are there sort of on the spot aha moments like you'd see
35:36
in a TV show or is it a fairly prepared situation?
35:40
It can go either way. Wow, that is intense.
35:44
Yeah. Talk about scene preparation and
35:47
planning. And then you're sort of just
35:49
thrown into a very real life scenario with very real
35:51
consequences, yes. Absolutely.
35:54
Thankfully, I have a lot of experience with public speaking,
35:57
so it hasn't been too challenging.
36:00
But I have to say, the first time I I walked into a courtroom
36:04
and like sat in my little seat with the microphone, I was like,
36:07
oh, this is really intense. This is a whole new thing that
36:10
I'm doing. I am slightly familiar from just
36:12
following celebrity cases of where BDSM is used as the reason
36:17
something happened. Are you ever challenged by a
36:20
different expert that's brought in to say something different to
36:23
you? Or when you're brought in, are
36:24
you foremost expert and they don't bring in multiple people
36:27
usually? If the defense hires an expert,
36:31
then the prosecution will find their own expert, and that's
36:34
really common in any sort of criminal cases.
36:36
If one side hires an expert witness, they'll usually hire
36:40
someone else's a rebuttal. So there is another BDSM expert
36:44
witness that has been doing this work for decades and I've worked
36:49
on opposing sides of several cases as this person.
36:52
That sounds like really fulfilling work to be able to
36:55
put all of your knowledge to a real life application that can
36:58
make a difference in someone's life.
37:00
It is. It is really fulfilling and it's
37:02
such a surprise I stumbled into it.
37:04
I never in a million years could have imagined that this is where
37:07
my career was going to take me. But I've been really enjoying it
37:09
for the past several years and I've worked on some really
37:11
interesting cases and I do feel like I'm well suited to do this
37:16
type of work. It's very important.
37:19
And the cases that are coming up right now are setting a
37:23
precedent legally for what consensual BDSM looks like, and
37:27
I want to be part of that conversation.
37:29
Wow, that is extremely powerful and something I didn't even
37:32
think about the fact that it is so new.
37:34
This does set precedent. OK, thank you for sharing.
37:38
So you've had a wealth of experience.
37:41
What is next for Shelby Devlin? Well, I wrote a book about BDSM.
37:47
It's basically an introduction to BDSM for people that are new
37:51
to exploration or they want to enrich their experience.
37:55
It's also a great resource for coaches and therapists that want
37:58
to have like a good reference, you know, give their clients.
38:02
Basically what's laid out in this book is the protocol that I
38:06
use to teach my clients and to teach coaches how to work with
38:10
people around BDSM and cake. And the title of the book is the
38:14
Pleasure Protocol. Ah.
38:15
I am so excited that this is going to be in the world.
38:19
You have done a good thing, Shelby.
38:21
I am so excited to read it. How long was the process to
38:25
write this? I wrote the first manuscript in
38:28
six weeks. Holy shit, that kind of tracks
38:31
for you, to be quite honest. I'm like that's.
38:34
Classic needs, yes. And then I took about two months
38:38
to edit it and then I gave it to my agent and we just got signed
38:45
with 10 speed, so. Congratulations.
38:48
Selfishly, I went straight how excited I was that this book is
38:50
going to be there, but that's an amazing achievement.
38:53
I am so happy for you and the kink community as a whole.
38:57
Nobody was writing something like it, and they're, I mean,
39:00
the closest comparison is SNM 101, but that book was written
39:04
in the 90s and it doesn't know accurate information anymore.
39:08
It is outdated. You're right, SM101 is the first
39:12
kink book I read. Like how to self help I guess is
39:15
how it's technically I described.
39:16
You're right it is old AF. I still reference it but even
39:19
I'm like OK this is not enough anymore.
39:22
The world has changed. It's not this hidden thing like
39:25
literally I'm on Instagram and TikTok talking about it.
39:27
There are plenty of other people who aren't even certified on
39:30
talking about it. So to have something like this
39:33
is going to be really important. And also Shelby before this the
39:37
only access we had to your knowledge was to hire you as a
39:39
coach which I still highly recommend.
39:41
You will never have a session like a Shelby Devlin session if
39:44
you are interested in or to sign up for Somatica, which also I
39:48
still highly recommend, but I'm really glad this is going to be
39:50
accessible for everyone. When can we expect this book to
39:54
be published? The end of 2026, so the end of
39:57
next year. I know it's heartbreaking.
39:59
It guts me every time I have to tell someone that this process
40:03
is so slow and it's frustrating. Well, I'm hoping that I can come
40:08
back and talk to you all about it once I can actually hold in
40:10
my hand. Of course we're going to have
40:12
you back on. I cannot wait to read the book
40:14
again. Congratulations, this is huge
40:16
and as someone who has a bookshelf full of like possibly
40:20
every BDSM book written and so many of them are from the 90s, I
40:23
am so excited to add your book to that shelf.
40:26
Thank you. Shelby, again, thank you so
40:28
much. You are doing amazing work and
40:31
for anyone who wants to find Shelby, you can find her on
40:34
Instagram as Coach Shelby Devlin or at her website
40:38
shelbydevlin.com. Thank you so much, Shelby, and I
40:41
cannot wait to have you on again next year when the book is
40:44
published and ready to go. Thank you, Amanda.
40:48
If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave
40:51
a review and share it with anyone who might find it
40:53
interesting. And if you have any questions or
40:55
topics you'd like me to cover in future episodes, feel free to
40:58
reach out e-mail info@thekingconsultant.com.
41:02
Until next time, keep on kinking on.