Latest / The Psychology of Relationships / The Real Reason Desire Changes in Long-Term Relationships (and What To Do About It) w/ Emily Nagoski

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The Real Reason Desire Changes in Long-Term Relationships (and What To Do About It) w/ Emily Nagoski · The Psychology of Relationships

0:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Julie Craftscheck, and I'm UASU.
0:03
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the Psychology of Relationships.
0:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about sex.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And not just the surface level stuff, because our sexual experiences, frustrations, and desires are deeply shaped by the psychology of how we think, feel, attach, and relate.
0:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Not just to our partners, but to ourselves.
0:40
[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, we're joined by Emily Nagoski, PhD, health educator, researcher, and author of the New York Times bestselling book, Come As You Are.
0:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Emily is one of the most influential voices in sexual wellbeing today.
0:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Her work blends neuroscience, clinical psychology, emotion regulation, and stress research to help us understand our sexual selves with more clarity, compassion, and confidence.
1:05
[SPEAKER_01]: She's also the co-author of burnout and author of Come Together, expanding her work into relational intimacy and the psychology of resilience.
1:13
[SPEAKER_01]: We dig into why sexual desire isn't one size if it's all.
1:17
[SPEAKER_01]: and why that's not a flaw, but part of our psychological wiring.
1:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Emily breaks down the dual control model, explaining what makes us hit the gas or slam on the brakes when it comes to a rousal.
1:28
[SPEAKER_01]: We also explore how stress, body image, attachment patterns, trauma history, and relational dynamics shape our sexual experiences far more than people realize.
1:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And we discuss the natural ebbs and flows of desire across different life stages,
1:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Because sexual satisfaction isn't about performance, frequency, or a comparison, it's about safety, connection, self-awareness, and being understood.
1:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And the more we understand the psychology behind sex, the more empowered we become to show up for ourselves and each other with honesty and ease.
2:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember to go to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen and leave us a rating and review, especially with a comment about what you learned from this episode.
2:13
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the psychology of relationships, and you're listening to an episode that just might change the way you show up for love.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Enjoy!
2:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Emily Nagoski, you've heard her name over and over again, I've had so many friends recommend your book to me, come as you are.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And we are so incredibly honored to have you with us today.
2:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi Emily.
2:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello.
2:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And there she is.
2:42
[SPEAKER_00]: We're so excited to have you, Emily.
2:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I feel like your book is just kind of like a right of passage.
2:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, and you said the first
2:53
[SPEAKER_00]: and then you update it again for 2021.
2:55
[SPEAKER_00]: What were some of the changes in the 2021 version?
2:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Some of it is detailed stuff making sure the science was still as up to date as it could possibly be.
3:03
[SPEAKER_02]: The science is matters a lot to me having it be as evidence-based as possible.
3:08
[SPEAKER_02]: But some of it was pretty large scale shift.
3:11
[SPEAKER_02]: So maybe the largest change was to the desire chapter chapter seven.
3:17
[SPEAKER_02]: So the core idea in that chapter is that most of us by the time we get to adulthood We have this story in our head of how sexual desire is supposed to work and that narrative is something like spontaneous desire Where you're just like walking down the street and you suddenly out of the blue all of a sudden are just like, oh, I would like to have some sex
3:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And you go to your partner, like, I would like to have the sex, how about that?
3:40
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's spontaneous desire.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It appears in anticipation of pleasure, essentially.
3:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, that is a normal healthy way to experience sexual desire, absolutely.
3:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Nothing wrong with that.
3:50
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's also another normal healthy way to experience desire, which is responsive desire.
3:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Where, instead of it, just like trucking down the street, you like it suddenly, just occurs to you.
4:02
[SPEAKER_02]: You might be like just like sitting on the couch, flipping through Netflix, having chosen something to watch and you're certain special someone is sitting next to you and starts just like touching you in a really lovely way.
4:13
[SPEAKER_02]: And that that sensation goes up to your brain and it's like so this is happening and your brain's like that's really nice.
4:18
[SPEAKER_02]: and then like a little bit more keeps happening and that sensation goes up to your brain and the sensation's like so so this is happening what do you think and your brain's like yeah it's really nice and maybe you turn towards your partner and you start like doing some kissing on them and then your brain says so this sensation is happening what do you think and your whole self is like you know what how about this sexy to how about we can
4:47
[SPEAKER_02]: It's called responsive desire because it emerges in response to pleasure, where spontaneous desire emerges in anticipation of pleasure.
4:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's news to a lot of people that responsive desire is 100% normal, natural, healthy.
5:02
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, the couples who sustain strong connections over the long-term,
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[SPEAKER_02]: regardless of their relationship structure, whether they're like monogamous married or poly married or open relationship.
5:14
[SPEAKER_02]: This is their only like long-term sexual relationship.
5:17
[SPEAKER_02]: They come and go in this relationship.
5:19
[SPEAKER_02]: If you want to sustain a strong sexual connection with another person over the long-term, it is not going to be a relationship characterized primarily by spontaneous desire.
5:27
[SPEAKER_02]: That is not what the laser shows.
5:29
[SPEAKER_02]: The research is on ambiguous.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That couples who sustain a long sexual long-term sexual connection with each other primarily that relationship is characterized by responsive desire.
5:38
[SPEAKER_02]: In the first version of Come As You Are, I said, so responsive desire is normal too.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But I know everybody hears that and is like, well, it's all well and good that it's normal.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But let's face it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Respontaneous desire is better.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So the first version of Come As You Are is,
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[SPEAKER_02]: Here are some strategies to get to spontaneous desire if that really matters for you.
6:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And the more research accumulated over the following years, the more I was like, no, people need to let go of spontaneous desire because it truly, deeply does not matter and their pursuit of spontaneous desire is actually interfering with their ability to have very pleasurable sex, pleasure,
6:22
[SPEAKER_02]: is the central defining characteristic of great sexual connections.
6:27
[SPEAKER_02]: It is not how much you can't wait to put your tongue in the other person's mouth.
6:31
[SPEAKER_02]: It is how much you enjoy it when you do put your tongue in the other person's mouth.
6:36
[SPEAKER_02]: So I switched the entire function of that chapter to being like not only as responsive desire normal, it is the thing that you should be focusing
6:46
[SPEAKER_02]: on.
6:46
[SPEAKER_01]: This is so fat.
6:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so glad we're starting here because I think it's important to define what these two desires mean because in my head when I read this chapter, I kept thinking, you know, one of the complaints that my partner has is that I don't initiate.
7:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I respond, and I love being like, you talk about contextual when,
7:04
[SPEAKER_01]: All my ducks in a row I feel good and he initiates that's when I get really turned on so for someone who you know I very much focus on the responsive desire but someone still has to initiate that chain of events right and isn't that wouldn't that be part of the spontaneous desire.
7:22
[SPEAKER_02]: maybe or so the complicating factor in the picture that I have seen you painting here is that feeling wanted is a big part of what puts you in a desire a state of mind.
7:35
[SPEAKER_02]: It's part of what arouses you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You're like everything's going great.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The context is positive and then your partner approaches you and away the feels really good and like that's the thing that kicks you over to the edge until like all right.
7:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
7:46
[SPEAKER_02]: This person wants me.
7:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
7:48
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, and probably your partner would really like it if you initiate it because they also like to feel wanted for An initiation often makes it feel like this person wants me and like you do want your partner, right?
8:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you enjoy the sex that you have together.
8:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
8:05
[SPEAKER_02]: So you don't have to have a spontaneous kind of like horny bones feeling in order to initiate sex.
8:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's go into that a little more.
8:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to talk about what dictates our sexual response, because you have a lot of interesting research about just like, how long do we have?
8:21
[SPEAKER_02]: All day.
8:22
[SPEAKER_00]: What month?
8:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Basically, what makes us want to like pump the brakes versus like put the gas pedal eye?
8:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you kind of go into that a little more?
8:30
[SPEAKER_02]: So what you're talking about there is the good old dual control model, which is the mechanism in your brain that controls sexual response, and as you can tell by the name the dual control model It's got two primary parts.
8:42
[SPEAKER_02]: It has a sexual accelerator or gas pedal, which notices all the sex-related Stimulation in the environment.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So that's everything you see here smell touch Think believe or imagine that your brain codes as
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[SPEAKER_02]: sex related and it sends the turn on signal that many of us are familiar with and it's functioning all the time at level below consciousness here we are talking about sex thinking about the idea of sex like public count is like a sound that sex related to me.
9:12
[SPEAKER_02]: While the count is a smell that's sex-related to me, just that little bit is enough to be like, well, there's some sex-related thinking, and so I'm going to send it turn on signal.
9:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Unfortunately, at the same time, in parallel, your breaks.
9:25
[SPEAKER_02]: The other part of it are noticing all the good reasons not to be turned on right now.
9:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Everything that you see here, smell, touch.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Taste, think, believe, or imagine that your brain causes a potential threat.
9:38
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is the big one.
9:40
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the normalizing.
9:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, look, it's totally normal and healthy and good for there to be things hitting my break.
9:47
[SPEAKER_02]: And the process of a rousal is a dual process of turning on the ons.
9:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, but also turning off the offs.
9:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And it turns out when people are struggling with any aspect of their sexual functioning
10:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it's because there's not enough stimulation to the accelerator, but much more often it's because there's too much stimulation to the brake because stress.
10:11
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the brake.
10:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Body image stuff.
10:13
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the brake.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Trauma history.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's the brake relationship trouble.
10:16
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the brakes.
10:17
[SPEAKER_02]: You're kids!
10:18
[SPEAKER_02]: get everything.
10:20
[SPEAKER_00]: So is this one in the same of your sex drive or do you describe it differently?
10:25
[SPEAKER_00]: You hear?
10:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, people always be like that.
10:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The technical language would say the sex is not a drive.
10:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And because a drive is a biological mechanism in an organism's body that is like an alarm, like a flashing red light and a wuga, wuga, claxon sound, that there's some problem that needs to get solved.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And there's an uncomfortable internal experience that pushes
10:52
[SPEAKER_02]: the animal out into the world to go solve that problem, hunger is a drive, thirst is a drive, sleep is a drive.
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[SPEAKER_02]: There's a regulation, if you do not meet these needs, a wulka, a wulka, there's a problem, fix it.
11:05
[SPEAKER_02]: If you don't meet these needs, what happens?
11:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Eventually you will literally die.
11:10
[SPEAKER_02]: You can literally die of sleep deprivation.
11:13
[SPEAKER_02]: You can literally die of loneliness, right?
11:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Love, connection is a biological drive.
11:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Sex is not one of those nobody has ever died because they couldn't get laid.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They may think they might.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They may feel uncomfortable feeling uncomfortable or frustrated.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Is not the same as suffering tissue damage and the fact that you have been told this before the fact that you say Jokingly people feel like they might is actually super important.
11:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So if sex is not a drive What is it then?
11:44
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we categorize it?
11:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me read.
11:46
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm realistic.
11:47
[SPEAKER_02]: I know we're not gonna live in a world There we all say the sex is an incentive motivation system sex drive is so much easier to say
12:01
[SPEAKER_02]: lay person term, casual, not literal kind of way.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If we can recognize that we're using the term sex drive, what we actually mean is the sexual incentive motivation system, that is not analogous to hunger, but rather to curiosity, exploration.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Play, all of these things are equally innate to us.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The difference is just that we don't die if we don't get it.
12:26
[SPEAKER_02]: And our desire to explore to read new books, to play new games, to watch new movies, is it comes and goes, right?
12:34
[SPEAKER_02]: There are sometimes when you just want to like watch the same movie you've watched a thousand times, read the same book you've read a thousand times.
12:40
[SPEAKER_02]: There are times when all you want to do is like curl up in bed and silence.
12:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Those are times when you are feeling stressed, overwhelmed, exhausted, anxious.
12:48
[SPEAKER_02]: depressed.
12:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Those are the times when you're not interested in sex, too.
12:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Probably, well, it's 80 for 80 to 90 percent of people.
12:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Those are times when your interest in sex is like, no, thanks.
12:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to break down the dual control model a little more.
13:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And I love, I think the overarching theme I got from your book is that there's no everything is normal.
13:08
[SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing that isn't.
13:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's really important, especially with sex, that's such, that can be such a sensitive topic, but we want to argue with that.
13:17
[SPEAKER_02]: So let me make sure, because people find it very difficult to be like, what do you mean everything is normal?
13:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you mean everything is normal in here or two things?
13:25
[SPEAKER_02]: but do not count as normal.
13:27
[SPEAKER_02]: From my point of view, one unwanted pain.
13:30
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not supposed to hurt unless you choose for it to hurt.
13:33
[SPEAKER_02]: If you enjoy pain with your sexual experience, great go for it.
13:39
[SPEAKER_02]: And the reason that happens is explained in Chapter 3.
13:41
[SPEAKER_02]: So you go.
13:43
[SPEAKER_02]: But unwanted pain is not normal.
13:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Talk to a medical provider.
13:47
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't say that glibly because a lot of people when they're experiencing pain with sex get dismissed by medical providers who don't know better.
13:55
[SPEAKER_02]: So you are going to have to put a legwork into finding a provider who will take you seriously and refer you to, for example, a physical therapist, which is the most promising intervention for most experiences of sexual pain.
14:07
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's one thing that's not normal.
14:09
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're experiencing, and I have had this conversation where people are like, and at her, but that was just, you know, and I was like, no,
14:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, if you want to go ahead, but no, and then the second thing that's not normal, obviously, is lack of consent.
14:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Everybody involved should be glad to be there and free to leave whenever they choose without any consequences.
14:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
14:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad that you specified that.
14:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I think what I thought was good about the normal comment was more of different desires and different, you know, like, yeah, the sexual breaks.
14:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Everything has to do with your breaks.
14:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, normal response of desire is normal.
14:45
[SPEAKER_02]: A rousal non concordance where there's a mismatch between your genitals and how you feel emotionally, that's normal.
14:52
[SPEAKER_02]: If you want to fuck your partners armpit, that is normal.
14:58
[SPEAKER_02]: As long as everybody in pop is glad to be there and free to leave without consequences, go for it.
15:03
[SPEAKER_02]: You can do anything you want.
15:04
[SPEAKER_02]: All normal.
15:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Love it.
15:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the most really fun though in your book is there was a quiz about like the sexual excitation system, the S.E.
15:13
[SPEAKER_00]: in the sexual inhibition system, S.I.
15:16
[SPEAKER_00]: and you were saying the most common was to kind of be in the middle for both.
15:20
[SPEAKER_00]: You and I took the quiz which was super fun.
15:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually scored.
15:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Super high in the sexual excitation, it low in the sexual inhibition.
15:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
15:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Julie's like turned on right now.
15:32
[SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing apparently, but you were more in the middle.
15:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly in the middle.
15:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think what was so groundbreaking for me in this chapter, Emily and I, I'm so,
15:43
[SPEAKER_01]: grateful for you for telling us this is a lot of times we focus on the SE and not not so much to SI and they are separate things so when we don't have sex for a while with our partner we think we're we're missing the stimulation we're missing the excitation so we focus so much of our time on by lingerie and going on public and trying to have sex in public when the SI I'm actually more sensitive in that area I have more breaks than I do excitation so we have
16:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to work on eliminating more of the breaks for me to really get aroused.
16:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting, and then I was going to ask you Emily, how do you think it differs for men and women?
16:22
[SPEAKER_02]: When you look at the research, it does, like if you had to guess which group men or women had overall more sensitive accelerators.
16:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Probably men.
16:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
16:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
16:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And who has the more sensitive breaks?
16:35
[SPEAKER_02]: As a population, if you average together the break sensitivity of 100 women and the break sensitivity of 100 men, the average score of the women is going to be higher.
16:43
[SPEAKER_02]: There is an enormous range of variability as just the two of you represent people very tremendously.
16:49
[SPEAKER_02]: all of that variation is normal.
16:51
[SPEAKER_02]: There's nothing dysfunctional about any of it.
16:53
[SPEAKER_02]: It does mean that there's different pronuses, but why do men score higher on average, on exciteers and lower on inhibitors?
17:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it innate?
17:03
[SPEAKER_02]: The only way we would know if it was like biologically innate is if we tested it in like one hour old infant humans and I don't see anyone getting like human IRB approval
17:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Studying that right this relationship.
17:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's that's so I guess it could be innate But it is probably because of the cultural messages with which a human being is raised from the moment of their birth Based on like the shape of the genitals between their legs that makes the adults around them go.
17:37
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a boy
17:37
[SPEAKER_02]: or it's a girl you get totally different messages.
17:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Actually it was told the story of a woman who read come as you are and then watched her adult grown-up brother changing his baby daughters diaper and when she was all clean and ready to go he reaches to get the diaper and when he turns back little baby daughter is touching her own genitals and dad doesn't touch that and like you have to wonder um
17:57
[SPEAKER_02]: How would he have responded if his baby had had him penis?
18:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, be like, go for it, keep going.
18:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like ha ha, or if she had been touching any other body part.
18:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, don't we love it when babies touch like find their feet?
18:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you find your feet?
18:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you got to cut us a little feet.
18:14
[SPEAKER_02]: So she is not going to remember that moment of her dad scolding her for touching her own body, but it will accumulate with countless other moments that she also will not remember.
18:27
[SPEAKER_02]: So by the time she gets to add lessons in adulthood, there's going to be this dark place in her brain where her genitals should be because she's been taught over years of virtually silent messages that that part of her body does not belong to her and it's a source of shame and
18:43
[SPEAKER_00]: So would you say then still that the majority of people like from your research fall in the middle of both or yeah, okay, so that's still like regardless of your sexual preference, regardless of your gender sex, like all of that, it's kind of even distribution on the bell curve.
19:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there have been multiple studies with many, many different populations and it just over and over again it turns out it has the same sort of distribution as any personality trait where like most people are heaped up in the middle and then there's a few people out on the edges.
19:15
[SPEAKER_02]: And but the people who are out on the edges are not abnormal.
19:19
[SPEAKER_02]: They're just a typical and it does result in different pronuses.
19:23
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you have a particular like, for example, if you have a really sensitive accelerator, especially if it's in combination with a not particularly sensitive break, that sounds like it can be really fun.
19:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And in the right context, it absolutely can be, but these are also the folks who might be most at risk for.
19:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Using sex as a strategy to manage, stress, depression, anxiety, loneliness, repress rage, we've all got it, or engage in compulsive sexual behavior or sexual risk taking.
19:49
[SPEAKER_02]: In the wrong context, it can actually increase risk.
19:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I want you to though, because I scored high and low, but it's maybe it's some of its context because I'm with someone.
20:00
[SPEAKER_02]: All of it is gone.
20:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was going to say, like, I don't know if I would have if I wasn't with the current partner.
20:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm with
20:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was gonna ask how often it's that change.
20:10
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like introversion, extroversion.
20:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you have a personality, a proneness, a temperament, so I'm like a real strong introvert.
20:18
[SPEAKER_02]: But even I have phased into times of like wanting to spend more time with people and feeling more energized and less trained by a time with people, depending on the context in the situation.
20:28
[SPEAKER_02]: It's gonna vary the way you'll respond to those questions.
20:30
[SPEAKER_02]: There'll be a sort of like a
20:32
[SPEAKER_02]: prowness that you'll notice that you tend to have a more or less sensitive gas pedal compared to your partner or other people, but where it falls precisely is going to vary depending on the context.
20:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
20:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And so should we take the quiz at different points in our life, depending on context?
20:47
[SPEAKER_02]: stressed.
20:48
[SPEAKER_02]: And what will it do for you to have a different score on a little cosmoquist?
20:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I used items from the actual science, but like that is not a scientific quiz.
20:56
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very much like a cosmoquist, just to give you a place to start and thinking about the sensitivity of your accelerator and break.
21:03
[SPEAKER_02]: And for most people, because most people are in the middle, it's much less about how sensitive are my breaks in accelerator and much more about like, there's a break, right?
21:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's talk about those breaks and context a little more, because I think context is key as we keep playing too.
21:20
[SPEAKER_00]: So I feel like in movies you see it's just like let's put some candles and roses and then we're going to immediately have sex.
21:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Like which cues do you think that are more than others and which ones don't?
21:33
[SPEAKER_02]: which cues matter more.
21:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so when you look at the research, it's really so rarely about what I actually think.
21:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it's about what I think the most of it's, what is the research tells us and the research tells us that personal well-being really matters.
21:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Mental and physical health.
21:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, if you currently have the flu, that's not gonna facilitate relief.
21:54
[SPEAKER_02]: flexible and responsive turning off the brakes.
21:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you're just gonna be like, no, partner characteristics.
22:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And we can think flexibly about what counts as a partner characteristic because it varies from person to person.
22:04
[SPEAKER_02]: And for me, it's sense of humor.
22:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Like when my partner is funny, that's like a big deal for me.
22:10
[SPEAKER_02]: My sister is a musician, Mary, two, a musician.
22:12
[SPEAKER_02]: So for her, sitting in the living room when he's in the piano room practicing, she just sitting there like,
22:25
[SPEAKER_02]: right and that's like that's not a thing for me but it is a thing for her so partner characteristics writ large.
22:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it might be even though you know parenting is not a sexy behavior.
22:35
[SPEAKER_02]: If you have kids and you're watching your co-parent with your kids you can just be like damn I'm with a right person.
22:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm in a good choice here.
22:43
[SPEAKER_02]: or like doing whatever their job is and they're really good at it and you just love seeing them be extraordinary at whatever their thing is.
22:52
[SPEAKER_02]: So partner characteristics is the second thing.
22:53
[SPEAKER_02]: The third thing is relationship characteristics.
22:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Most important among the relationship characteristics is trust.
23:00
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a relationship researcher and therapist named Sue Johnson who developed emotionally focused therapy, EFT.
23:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
23:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And she defines trust, as basically the answer to the question, are you there for me?
23:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Are meaning, so are stands for emotionally accessible, emotionally responsive, and emotionally engaged.
23:21
[SPEAKER_02]: When I show up with a feeling, you are emotionally present and with me responsive and engaged.
23:27
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's extremely important with sex because there's a lot of vulnerability involved in sex.
23:32
[SPEAKER_02]: You might be taking off some clothes and letting somebody see parts of your body almost no one else will see or touching parts of your body almost no one else will touch you might be putting a part of your body
23:42
[SPEAKER_02]: inside a part of someone else's body or letting them put a part of their body inside your body like it takes so much trust.
23:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you take off your clothes and your partner is like, wow, yay, and thank you.
23:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Then they are really there for you.
24:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Whereas if you show up and take off your clothes and your partner is like, you know, okay.
24:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
24:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I see that have a huge impact on you.
24:09
[SPEAKER_00]: That would probably have scored totally different if I took that quiz with that.
24:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's a partner who's not there for you.
24:15
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's like a key relationship factor.
24:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I love the example you gave in your book with someone when they asked her partner, why do you want to have sex?
24:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Why do you like having sex with me?
24:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And her partner answered because you're beautiful.
24:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And I really love this example because it wasn't about treating her like a piece of meat because you're hot or I like your body.
24:35
[SPEAKER_01]: He's just saying, baseline you're beautiful, I'm just so attracted to you.
24:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And to me, that's also something that is as you for me to hear something.
24:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so in that real story, it's grounded in like a true story and it was specifically about someone who was feeling very self conscious about the changes that had happened to her body after having a child like so much happens to your body and it's not just that there are like visible physical changes it's that like the way your body experiences sensations changes the meaning of your various body parts changes and she was really struggling with learning how to love this body.
25:16
[SPEAKER_02]: And she had absorbed as we all have a lot of like cultural messages about like getting your pre-baby body back and blah blah blah All bullshit and noise.
25:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we can talk about that later if you want to but what he said when she was like Why would you even even want to have sex with this is actually what she said?
25:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Why would you want to have sex with this and he's like
25:39
[SPEAKER_02]: because you're beautiful.
25:40
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've heard the story over and over actually, especially after the book came out, men kept telling me about how gorgeous they found their partners after they had a child.
25:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And like they like either like we're in no way bothered by the changes or actively loved.
25:58
[SPEAKER_02]: the changes to their partner's body after a child came along.
26:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I have also heard stories about men who were like, well, let or no, she doesn't look the way she used to.
26:07
[SPEAKER_02]: But many more stories of men being like, she gets hotter every day.
26:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, if you want to have sex, that's what you should be saying.
26:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Cause the others got to start it off.
26:16
[SPEAKER_02]: And not just what you say, but what you actually feel because like let's face it like when you are in a long-term relationship.
26:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Especially if you like you get married and do the whole like till death do us part thing.
26:27
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know about you but like I intend not to die while still having the body I currently have.
26:33
[SPEAKER_02]: I got decades ahead of me I hope.
26:34
[SPEAKER_02]: If I'm lucky enough to grow old and my partner is lucky enough to grow old, then both of us are going to be old, baggy, wrinkled, bald, gray-haired scars from surgery, metal hips, like our body is going to be really different by the time death does us part.
26:53
[SPEAKER_02]: That's that's the deal.
26:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Like when you get married, maybe because your partner looks the way they do.
26:58
[SPEAKER_02]: You're not marrying that body.
26:59
[SPEAKER_02]: You're marrying
27:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that body is such an, I mean, I've definitely felt that.
27:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's like, if you're not feeling great about your body, and obviously if you have a partner that's not, you know, receiving it well, that's another whole thing.
27:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if you're in a situation where there's a lot of stress going on, whether that's your own feel or, let's say, the other flip side of having kids is that you're just, you know, run down, entire,
27:27
[SPEAKER_00]: whatever maybe you start a new job, whatever life there's at you, do you just accept that this is a point in time or like are there ways to kind of reactivate your SC?
27:37
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, no, don't worry about, oh, it's very rare that the thing to focus on is adding simulation to the accelerator.
27:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Nearly always the idea is like so what's what's hitting the brakes right now?
27:50
[SPEAKER_02]: And what control do I have over that?
27:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Are there things that I can do to like take some pressure off the brakes?
27:55
[SPEAKER_02]: So the accelerator is free to do its job and they're absolutely are gonna be times when like nope Nope, the gas pedal that is like fine, but man the brakes are just on the floor right now I got the foot brake on I got the hand brake pulled up
28:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, we're just, we're just not going anywhere right now.
28:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, if you just brought a brand new baby into your life, no, you're not going to be getting any sleep.
28:19
[SPEAKER_02]: The whole idea of your body is going to be weird and kind of just like, baby hands touching your body and the whole meaning of your body parts is now about like parenting and how do you transition out of parenting mode into, hey, sexy lady mode, like that takes practice and effort.
28:34
[SPEAKER_02]: So, there is no more ironic way.
28:38
[SPEAKER_02]: to not experience any interest in sex, then to judge yourself for how little interest you have in sex.
28:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Because if you're like you're like trying to like get in the mood and you're like what's going on and it's been weeks or months and I still am not in this place and you're like judging yourself and criticizing yourself and maybe...
28:56
[SPEAKER_02]: your partner is like, should you see a doctor?
28:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think there's something wrong with you?
29:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Is any of that activating the accelerator?
29:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that is that sex-related stimuli that's turned?
29:06
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it's all hitting the brakes.
29:07
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you like take take sexual desire, take sexual interest, take sexual behavior off the table entirely, no pressure, no judgment, no performance, no performance anxiety.
29:18
[SPEAKER_02]: You just allow there to be like a breathing moment in your connection.
29:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Where are you takes space?
29:24
[SPEAKER_02]: When we study people who have great sexual connections, these are not people who necessarily sustain a strong sexual connection constantly.
29:31
[SPEAKER_02]: They're not the ones who never find that there is distance between them.
29:34
[SPEAKER_02]: They're the ones who finding that there's distance between them, find their way back to each other.
29:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, this is very timely because you talk about stress and how it can, you know, that absolutely contribute to our SI hitting the brakes.
29:47
[SPEAKER_01]: But you also make a clear line between stressors and stress.
29:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, I will love for you to explain what that is because I, to me, that was the most helpful definition and also how do we manage stress, not in a way that society tells us to manage stress, but in a healthy way.
30:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so the short answer is chapter four of come as you are, and then all of burnout.
30:10
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a, the single best predict, so come as you are is really focused on like women's sexual wellbeing, not because women most deserve sexual wellbeing, but because the cultural denial of their sexual autonomy and pleasure, access to pleasure, is the foundation of, I think, all the evils in the world.
30:29
[SPEAKER_02]: And it turns out the best predictor of a woman's sexual well-being is surprised her overall well-being.
30:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
30:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I'm sure that applies to men too, right?
30:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyone's overall well-being is going to help them.
30:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
30:43
[SPEAKER_02]: And for everybody, yeah.
30:44
[SPEAKER_02]: So because people were like, this is the most important chapter in this book, that's actually why burnout was the next book.
30:51
[SPEAKER_02]: So chapter four of Come As You Are, and one,
30:55
[SPEAKER_02]: of burnout are beginning with this idea that the process of dealing with your stress, which is the physiological thing that happens in your body.
31:03
[SPEAKER_02]: The adrenaline and cortisol and all of these things we read about with a fight or flight response, which is actually fight, flight, freeze, fun.
31:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And then there's your stress, it's dealing with that as separate from the process of dealing with your stress ors, which are the things that cause that activate the stress response in your body.
31:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Our stress
31:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, like biologically, your stress response is the same when you're sitting in terrible traffic when you are surrounded by douchebags.
31:34
[SPEAKER_02]: As it is, when you're being literally chased by a predator like a lion, right?
31:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, so you're on this event of Africa running, and your body is doing what it is designed to do feeding you this adrenaline and stuff.
31:46
[SPEAKER_02]: so that you can run to escape.
31:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
31:49
[SPEAKER_02]: So you're sitting in traffic surrounded by douchebags and your body is pumping out this adrenaline and stuff and like trying to help you out.
31:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And running is not the behavior that's going to fix this situation.
32:02
[SPEAKER_02]: You just need to wait.
32:05
[SPEAKER_02]: So by the time when you're running away from a lion, if you like, if there's only two possible outcomes here, right, either you get eaten by the lion, or you survive.
32:16
[SPEAKER_02]: So imagine you run all the way back to your village and you outrun the lion, you jump up and down and you explain, and when you tell the story to your friends and family and you feel so relieved and great.
32:27
[SPEAKER_02]: rateful in the sun seems to shine brighter, right?
32:30
[SPEAKER_02]: When you get out of your car after you've been in traffic for 45 minutes, you get out of your car.
32:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you suddenly feel glad to be alive in the sun seems to shine brighter and you love your friends and family?
32:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Or do you still want to punch somebody in the face?
32:45
[SPEAKER_02]: And you kind of accidentally take it out on the first mammal you see when you walk in the door?
32:50
[SPEAKER_01]: ear partner.
32:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so that's the difference between dealing with the stress and dealing with the stress or if you get home from the terrible traffic you have dealt with the stress or yay if you there is you know some a douchebag at work.
33:05
[SPEAKER_02]: who you're just like, I just, you, the way to deal with that is not going to be the way you're a adrenaline wants you to deal with it, which is to like, you know, lean over the table and slap them across the jaw.
33:18
[SPEAKER_02]: That is not appropriate.
33:19
[SPEAKER_02]: That's just not a thing you can do legally.
33:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
33:21
[SPEAKER_02]: like literally for legal reasons, it is not correct.
33:25
[SPEAKER_02]: That is not the socially appropriate thing to do.
33:28
[SPEAKER_02]: The socially appropriate thing to do is to like have a rational conversation, maybe mediated, like you know, you are grown up who manages your feelings.
33:37
[SPEAKER_02]: You put the pause button on your stress response.
33:40
[SPEAKER_02]: You hold on to it until you are in an appropriate place and then separate from dealing with a stress or you deal with the stress itself, which is you can deal with physical activity,
33:51
[SPEAKER_02]: A big ol' cry, I love that one.
33:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Belly laugh, another great one, creative self-expression, using your imagination and just sit in your office with your eyes closed and imagine that you are Godzilla and you are stomping all over the douchebags office and just stroying all their crash.
34:10
[SPEAKER_02]: that you're allowed to do, you're allowed to do anything you want in your imagination, right?
34:14
[SPEAKER_00]: So how this comes back, let me know if I'm filling this incorrectly, is stress is going to put the brakes on from any, yes.
34:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So anyways, that we can like de-stress and address this stuff that's going to help with overall sexual happiness.
34:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because it fixes your overall will be and also some people feel like they can distract themselves from stress with sex and I feel like for me personally having sex while I'm stressed actually adds to my anxiety and my stress so it is okay to say to my partner I'm taking a pause so I can work through my stress before we have amazing sex.
34:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
34:54
[SPEAKER_00]: So one of the things that we get, we've got in this question a lot is like, what happens when my partner and I have different, I would have said sex drives in the past, but now I want to say like SC and SI levels of interest in sex.
35:08
[SPEAKER_02]: or motorism.
35:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
35:10
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you address that situation?
35:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like what you hear in, you know, bad cause of our advice is, you know, like set the candles, buy sex toys, like basically adding to the SE, where what I'm kind of gathering from you is maybe it's focusing on the SI a little more.
35:26
[SPEAKER_02]: It's absolutely 100% focused on the S.I.M.R.
35:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
35:30
[SPEAKER_02]: So if so suppose we got partner A and partner B, partner A has higher interest in sex with like sex more frequently, partner B has lower interest in sex with like sex less frequently.
35:39
[SPEAKER_02]: First of all, there is an automatic judgment about one of the person having a more correct level of sexual and correct on the other one.
35:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
35:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
35:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's wrong.
35:47
[SPEAKER_02]: That's already you're starting off wrong right there.
35:50
[SPEAKER_00]: That probably adds stress right away.
35:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and one person is like the diagnosed patient, and usually it's the higher desire person who's like the better sexualized and the lower desire person is the worse like there's something wrong and broken with you if you've lower interest in sex That already so like start from a place of like both of us are equally correct and normal and healthy in our level of interest in sex
36:12
[SPEAKER_02]: No one's broken.
36:13
[SPEAKER_02]: We just have a relationship where we need to like figure out a compromise way to make this work.
36:19
[SPEAKER_02]: And if I'm the hired as our partner in my relationship, then what I want to do is I want to figure out everything that's hitting my partner's breaks.
36:27
[SPEAKER_02]: And just sweep them away.
36:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Get rid of them.
36:29
[SPEAKER_02]: I went to I originally heard this story actually from Sarah Wendell of us.
36:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yes.
36:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, fraud.
36:37
[SPEAKER_00]: We got connected.
36:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that work shared that work.
36:39
[SPEAKER_02]: She tells the story being an elevator and listening to people having the conversation like these characters and these romance novels They can be like literally running away from the bad guy.
36:48
[SPEAKER_02]: They're being shot at and they hide in a closet running away from the bad guy And they have sex in the closet And this woman is like I can't have sex if there's still a dish in the sink
36:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, like that's it's a distraction.
37:02
[SPEAKER_02]: It's an interruption her brain is still on that dish I'm not letting it go the wrong easy way to address that is to like tell the person Well, you just need to like be more mindful be more present in the moment like go of the dish and turn your attention to the pleasurable things happening in the here and now But what if what if I as the higher desire partner in relationship with that person I heard my partner say I'm sorry.
37:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just like my brain is really stuck on that last coffee cup
37:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I As the higher desire person can be like, you know what baby go fucking clean that I'm gonna go clean that
37:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And I come up like a superhero.
37:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
37:38
[SPEAKER_02]: I did the dish.
37:40
[SPEAKER_02]: You smell that dish so baby.
37:41
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I've literally heard stories about laundry.
37:44
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a real laundry.
37:45
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a really big one.
37:46
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a huge one.
37:47
[SPEAKER_02]: It breaks people like because there's so many steps.
37:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And you just have to wait until the next step is ready.
37:52
[SPEAKER_02]: So like, you know, you've got date night and the last little laundry never got folded.
37:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
37:57
[SPEAKER_02]: So the story as it was told to me was like, I'm in bed and waiting for my partner to come up and naked.
38:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just like, can we just get this done?
38:06
[SPEAKER_01]: But to do this really fucks you up.
38:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I just wanted to cross it off But partner comes up with the laundry basket naked and it's like hey, how you doing?
38:16
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna put away the laundry.
38:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna hang up each of your t-shirts Doesn't make any sense to hang up a t-shirt, but that is the way you like it.
38:25
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, you know, like bending over in a sexy way
38:27
[SPEAKER_02]: It's playful.
38:28
[SPEAKER_02]: It's supposed to be funny and silly, but yeah, if I'm the higher desire partner, if I want to have sex more frequently or greater pleasure with the sex that we have, then I want to get rid of everything that is hitting my partner's brakes and remove it for your partner.
38:43
[SPEAKER_01]: But what about something like this is I'm asking for a friend.
38:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, are my friends.
38:49
[SPEAKER_01]: That is not.
38:50
[SPEAKER_01]: you a's question.
38:52
[SPEAKER_01]: She cannot have sex in humidity or when she's sweaty and sticky.
38:58
[SPEAKER_01]: But her partner is totally fine, fucking in that kind of environment.
39:02
[SPEAKER_01]: How could the partner help remove that break for my friend?
39:06
[SPEAKER_02]: feel like an air conditioner cost about $100.
39:10
[SPEAKER_00]: See, there's a solution to everything, there's a solution.
39:14
[SPEAKER_00]: You just need to find the solution.
39:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what is like, put a big red bow on the box, be like, baby, I made an investment in us.
39:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I love this, but let's say, that's a source subject in your relationship.
39:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure, which it is for a lot of this which it is.
39:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like the more you bring it up, the more their breaks, probably.
39:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right?
39:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that was chasing dynamic.
39:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because I can't, I mean, I've never been in the situation, but I'm only like imagining if someone was like, why don't you want to sex?
39:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Why don't you want to sex?
39:47
[SPEAKER_00]: That's going to make me more nervous to have sex.
39:50
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you have these conversations?
39:53
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, in a way that you can understand what their breaks are, so it becomes a solution rather than just having this circular convoer, you know, pulling out all the exciters that aren't doing anything, just adding pressure.
40:04
[SPEAKER_02]: So, how do we have, how do I ask my partner for, how do I talk to my partner about question?
40:09
[SPEAKER_02]: ultimate answer is will you just talk about it, you just do it.
40:13
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, it's not about like, how do I physically go and do it?
40:17
[SPEAKER_02]: It's what are the things that are standing in my way?
40:19
[SPEAKER_02]: What am I afraid could possibly happen?
40:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I generally answer this question with two dad jokes.
40:26
[SPEAKER_02]: One, we love dad jokes.
40:28
[SPEAKER_02]: How do hedgehogs have sex?
40:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Very carefully.
40:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, uh, this is this is a, a 1930s, 40s guy, a rise in musician.
40:39
[SPEAKER_02]: He arrives in New York City, says to his cab driver, hey, fella, how do you get the Carnegie Hall and the cab driver looks at him and goes practice, practice, practice, practice.
40:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Get it?
40:50
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you get to Carnegie Hall?
40:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Practice practice.
40:53
[SPEAKER_02]: So the answer to how do I talk about it is very carefully and practice practice practice.
40:57
[SPEAKER_02]: The real question to ask is, well, there's a lot of questions to ask.
41:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And what I've found is that one of the most useful things that I can do in a short amount of time is to instruct people what the good questions are because it's not how do I want sex more.
41:10
[SPEAKER_02]: The question is, what is it that I want when I want sex?
41:14
[SPEAKER_02]: What is it that I don't want when I don't want sex?
41:18
[SPEAKER_02]: What is it that I like when I like sex?
41:21
[SPEAKER_02]: What is it that I don't like when I don't like sex?
41:25
[SPEAKER_02]: For both people to answer these questions, be able to talk about it, because it's not just that you like the pleasure and you don't just want orgasm, because you can do that by yourself.
41:35
[SPEAKER_02]: So what is it about having another person and specifically this other person with you that can tribute something powerful and important to your well-being, to your sense of joy,
41:47
[SPEAKER_02]: fulfillment as a human being.
41:49
[SPEAKER_02]: What is it that you want?
41:50
[SPEAKER_02]: What is it that you like?
41:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Or don't want?
41:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And don't like.
41:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And that opens up the possibility of having a conversation that's not about the power struggle because so often people frame sex as a resource to fight over in a relationship.
42:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's not, it is, oh, I'm gonna not go to the dark place of things that have happened culturally.
42:16
[SPEAKER_01]: We can save that for another episode.
42:18
[SPEAKER_01]: But it is a really great point because we are sold into this narrative that in a new relationship, you fuck like bunnies.
42:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And then at some point you get so used to each other that you start having less sex and the sex is not good.
42:31
[SPEAKER_01]: But what you're really saying here, and this is my takeaway, is that sex gets better.
42:37
[SPEAKER_01]: with time because you start to learn your partner's essays and essays and it becomes a puzzle you can how do we crank up the essays and how do we get rid of the essays.
42:47
[SPEAKER_01]: So in that theory sex should get better and better as you get to know your partner.
42:52
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is absolutely how it works when people are willing to abandon the script that somebody somewhere planted in our heads that says here is how sexist is supposed to work.
43:05
[SPEAKER_02]: It's supposed to be spontaneous.
43:07
[SPEAKER_02]: It's supposed to happen easily.
43:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, you're supposed to sort of it has an order of operations.
43:12
[SPEAKER_02]: You do things in this order.
43:13
[SPEAKER_02]: You engage in these behaviors, but not in these other behaviors.
43:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Boom, boom, boom, boom.
43:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're done.
43:18
[SPEAKER_02]: And we can tell somebody's done because somebody
43:22
[SPEAKER_02]: that's how you know.
43:23
[SPEAKER_02]: If we are real and in the research on people who have extraordinary sex, this is what they say, how do you get to be a person who has sex that makes you feel like you're like plugged into the universe?
43:33
[SPEAKER_02]: You abandon everything you were ever taught about sex, gender, pleasure, bodies, trust, shame, love, and you connect deeply with what those things are for you
43:46
[SPEAKER_02]: regardless of what somebody taught you.
43:48
[SPEAKER_02]: And you connect deeply with what those things are for your partners, regardless of what the world taught you that was supposed to be.
43:56
[SPEAKER_02]: You really pay attention to you and to your partner and you customize sex and make it exactly what it can be for you specifically without regard to what anybody says it's supposed to be.
44:08
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the the confidence and joy thing that I talk about all the time confidence is knowing what is actually true knowing that responsive desire is not only normal, but great knowing about the control model knowing what kinds of stuff hits your breaks knowing that one level of desire is not better or worse than another level of desire.
44:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And joy is the hard part joy is loving what's true.
44:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, about your sexuality, your body, your relationship and the world you live in.
44:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And knowing what's true and loving what's true requires that you recognize the ways that you've been lied to.
44:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Your whole life about how sex it should work.
44:42
[SPEAKER_02]: And when you can do that, you become freed up to do exactly what you were talking about, to begin to, like, pay really great attention to your own breaks and accelerator, to your partners breaks and accelerator, and to play the game of, like, how can we create space for our erotic selves to emerge under the, like, mountainous pile of other crap we have to deal with in our lives, to be able to play with each other in a specific fun goofy way, we humans play.
45:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
45:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think, I mean, there's so many takeaways.
45:13
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll move onto that.
45:14
[SPEAKER_00]: This is episode.
45:15
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just been jam-packed, you know, nuggets and stuff.
45:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And obviously, people can read your book.
45:20
[SPEAKER_02]: It's 110,000 worse.
45:21
[SPEAKER_02]: That's it.
45:22
[SPEAKER_00]: People can read a book to even get more, but I think the biggest thing I learned from this.
45:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know it's one of those things that I think I knew, but I didn't think about as much of just how much environment plays in two sex.
45:36
[SPEAKER_00]: The whole like working off of you know the stressors and what is you know pumping those breaks like I never thought that was the way to kind of get you the sex life that you wanted like it's only it's almost like counter intuitive yet it makes so much sense.
45:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think for me, that's a really great take away from all this.
45:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And you keep drilling this home besides the two things that you point it out.
46:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything is normal.
46:01
[SPEAKER_00]: There is no right or wrong.
46:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Like no one has better or worse.
46:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that can change at different stages of your life based on what's going on.
46:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, if something someone can't orgasm or like something is coming up, it's not that there's like wrong.
46:16
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just maybe there's a stress that's happening.
46:18
[SPEAKER_00]: That's causing this.
46:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
46:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Like for example, you're worried about how long your orgasm is taking.
46:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
46:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like sometimes we jump to like, what am I doing wrong or what am I doing wrong for my partner?
46:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's usually not about that.
46:31
[SPEAKER_00]: It's usually about these external contacts that's happening.
46:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it frees up the whole like blame judgment like you can just be set free from all of that stuff and be like how do we so here's this puzzle that we have how do we solve it together.
46:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and not being afraid to communicate I think sex is the one area that a lot of people are afraid to communicate because it feels so.
46:54
[SPEAKER_00]: personal.
46:54
[SPEAKER_00]: It feels so high stakes, right?
46:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Like we really don't want to hurt our partner's feelings and make them feel judged or criticized in any way.
47:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And we're also tender and like it feels like the least little criticism could just like devastate them.
47:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
47:08
[SPEAKER_02]: If there, if I have any like concrete tip about communication, stay as positive as you possibly can make your partner feelings super hero.
47:14
[SPEAKER_02]: I love how we do XYZ.
47:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I want our sex life to be the best sex I've ever had with anybody ever.
47:21
[SPEAKER_02]: and let's talk about how we can create that together.
47:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
47:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think just the words of affirmation actually do play so much into it.
47:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I think what you were saying too of just being with the partner characteristics, how much that impact for us.
47:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I definitely appreciate it.
47:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
47:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
47:41
[SPEAKER_02]: All the like self-help buzzwords.
47:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I know it's like I say things like gratitude and affirmation.
47:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Please, but no, they're so good and usually if sex things aren't going well in your sex life There is something deeper going on that's not just physical for the most part not always, but yes, it's all related
48:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And I take away is after reading your book, I just thought, wow, society's really fucked up about the way we educate and talk about sex.
48:12
[SPEAKER_01]: You even mentioned the fact that before someone turns 18, everything about sex is about no, no, no, all the dangers and fears around sex.
48:19
[SPEAKER_01]: As soon as a woman turns 18, she's expected to be this minks, like, go fuck.
48:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Go have the best sex for your life.
48:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And she has a mentaut to do that.
48:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And then if she has too much sex or too little sex,
48:32
[SPEAKER_01]: We're always doing it wrong, you're always doing it.
48:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Too much for too little and the normal way of doing things, nobody's doing it that way.
48:41
[SPEAKER_01]: What I took away was we have to unsubscribe from these beliefs that came out of nowhere and you talk about
48:48
[SPEAKER_01]: accidental environment, you were brought into an environment to learn all of this, not by your own choice because you were accidentally brought into this world.
48:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, accidentally not by your parents, but you didn't get to you didn't get to choose, but any given moment in time, we have the option and the power to question, do I actually believe this.
49:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Or did I just freely subscribe to this belief without even questioning it.
49:15
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's really empowering to know.
49:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I also love this idea of creating the best sex with your partner something we talk about on our show is everybody loves to list their turn on and turn off.
49:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would challenge people to stop doing that because it's not one size fits all.
49:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Your turn-ons with one partner are going to be different with another partner.
49:35
[SPEAKER_01]: The fact that I love forums on my current partner does not mean that I will love every forum that I see.
49:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's great to know that like the concept that sex is a very
49:46
[SPEAKER_01]: customized thing makes it much more liberating to know that whatever you experience with your your sexual partner is different from time to time and you can treat it like an experiment and just keep experimenting.
50:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And it changes with every level of granularity.
50:04
[SPEAKER_02]: So like you may love the forums on this person, but like no other forums.
50:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
50:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And also, when this person with the great forearms like touches you in this special way in the certain special spot, today, your knees melt, but tomorrow you're like extra overwhelmed and exhausted and that same certain special someone touched that same certain special place in the certain special way and you're like,
50:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's really important too, because like for me, I'm at the start of a new relationship.
50:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think like sometimes you fear that like that honeymoon period will be over.
50:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that knowing that it's normal that things go in waves is super helpful that there's nothing wrong, per se.
50:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this is just life and sex is one part of life, but if we were just having sex all the time, like humanity wouldn't be doing anything else.
50:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
50:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
50:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, like you have to sleep some time.
51:00
[SPEAKER_00]: We just be procreating all the time, that's it.
51:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you wouldn't.
51:04
[SPEAKER_02]: The weird, this is a side note, but there is actually not a relationship between frequency of intercourse and introduction.
51:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, shit.
51:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Just like more about the time when you do it.
51:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because the presence of the egg is the limiting factor.
51:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And like it's there whether you have sex or not.
51:19
[SPEAKER_02]: And if the sperm is present when the egg is present, then there's a possibility of pregnancy.
51:25
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you have sex every day, like 28 days out of 30, there wasn't any chance you were gonna get pregnant anyway.
51:31
[SPEAKER_02]: So anyway.
51:31
[SPEAKER_02]: people are like oh is is the reason we have a reduction in population because people are having sex last frequently.
51:38
[SPEAKER_02]: No, that's not why.
51:39
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
51:40
[SPEAKER_00]: No, not at all.
51:41
[SPEAKER_01]: We're just using contraception.
51:42
[SPEAKER_01]: That's all.
51:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
51:45
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't want kids.
51:46
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it.
51:47
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it.
51:48
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what we're making choices and having control over their bodies.
51:51
[SPEAKER_02]: more than they ever have at any point in history, like I would rather be alive now than at any time in the past, and I'm sure God I hope 50 years from now.
51:59
[SPEAKER_02]: If I'm still here, I'll be like I'd rather be alive now than at any other time, because people are more free, they have more opportunity to choose, and they have more cultural permission to be exactly who they are, and love exactly who they love and enjoy what they love.
52:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I love hearing that.
52:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much Emily, you know, this is we were only able to cover like one third of the book.
52:19
[SPEAKER_01]: There's just so much more in the book.
52:21
[SPEAKER_01]: In addition to I was on our list.
52:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I wanted to talk about the high meant myth which was like whoa, what the
52:33
[SPEAKER_01]: That's crazy.
52:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So I guess this will be a great teaser for anybody who has not read your book or listened to your book I've been listening to it Um audio and it's so great to hear your voice here and then I hear you lots and so there's just so much more to uncover with the book But also your book burnout is fabulous you wrote this with your twin sister
52:52
[SPEAKER_01]: crazy.
52:53
[SPEAKER_01]: She's a musician.
52:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Burnout affects so many aspects of her life, including our sex life.
52:59
[SPEAKER_01]: So also a very important book to read and put on our radars.
53:02
[SPEAKER_02]: That of any book, this is Burnout is the one I would wish least were relevant to people's lives, but it is just more and more relevant since it came out in 2019.
53:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So is there any other ways like any websites or any other ways that people can learn more about you?
53:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm of social media mostly on Instagram these days and mostly for fun in Gasky and as a new adult H-O-S-K-I.
53:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Awesome.
53:30
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll also link it in our show notes.
53:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for just changing sex education for us finally after that so many so much time of you know growing up false information Thank you so much for finally just disrupting what we've been learning and being like, hold on come on guys Together you're
53:53
[SPEAKER_01]: You are such a hero.
53:54
[SPEAKER_02]: What if everything you thought was true?
53:55
[SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't true.
53:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm so glad that I would never have expected when I was writing come as you are and destroying my own sex life, not permanently, that it would have the kind of impact that it's had.
54:07
[SPEAKER_02]: It's hard to even understand.
54:09
[SPEAKER_02]: what a positive impact it's had on people's lives and so thank you for telling me because it's like I can look back on that, be like, that was worth it.
54:16
[SPEAKER_01]: You want so worth it, so worth it.
54:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody can everyone deserves to have better sex and you are doing that for us.
54:24
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for for making the world a more.
54:26
[SPEAKER_01]: healthier sexual place if that's the way to think about it.
54:31
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to wrap up this episode.
54:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you again Emily for being a part of this show and if you haven't done so yet, subscribe to the psychology of relationships today so you don't miss an episode.
54:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And we'll see you all next week.
54:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye!