Latest / Mortgage Marketing Radio / Ep: 144: How to Get Started, Build Your Brand and Get Business from Instagram

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Ep: 144: How to Get Started, Build Your Brand and Get Business from Instagram · Mortgage Marketing Radio

• 0:00
  In today's highly competitive mortgage industry, building profitable relationships with
• 0:04
  real estate agents is essential for success.
• 0:06
  However, finding effective ways to secure agent relationships can be a challenge.
• 0:11
  With so many mortgage loan originators vying for the attention of real estate agents,
• 0:15
  it can be difficult to stand out and establish meaningful connections.
• 0:20
  Our new case study featuring loan officer Chris Cogill is a must-read.
• 0:25
  This has closed a remarkable 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals.
• 0:31
  And in this case study, he shares his proven strategies for building strong relationships
• 0:35
  with real estate agents and leveraging those relationships to drive more business.
• 0:39
  To get your hands on this resource, head over to LOKestudy.com and download your free copy
• 0:45
  of the case study today.
• 0:47
  You'll find actionable insights and practical tips that Chris used to close 36 million
• 0:52
  in funded loans from agent referrals and how you can, too.
• 0:56
  Don't miss out.
• 0:57
  Go check it out right now, visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today.
• 1:17
  Welcome to Mortgage Marketing Radio.
• 1:19
  Brought to you by the Mortgage Marketing Institute, your number one source for truth
• 1:24
  in Mortgage Marketing.
• 1:25
  Hey listeners, what's up, it's Jeff Zimfer, your host once again for another edition
• 1:31
  of the Mortgage Marketing Radio podcast.
• 1:33
  So thrilled you're here and excited to bring you another superstar interview, which I
• 1:40
  know you're going to be thrilled with.
• 1:42
  Before I get to that, I want to, of course, always give a shout out to you, our listeners.
• 1:46
  If you don't know it, you can leave us a review, if you like to show, if you're getting
• 1:49
  value from it, hey, I appreciate you leaving a review on iTunes or wherever else you're
• 1:54
  listening to this podcast, you can do it on Facebook or wherever it is you're listening
• 1:59
  to this podcast, appreciate a review in it as an exchange.
• 2:01
  I'm going to send you a swag box with a t-shirt and some other cool podcast stuff for
• 2:07
  you to probably wear and display.
• 2:09
  So on that note, I want to give a shout out to one of our more recent podcast reviews
• 2:13
  by Jay Baker 89.
• 2:16
  This was just left for us on October 30th.
• 2:18
  So it's brand new fresh off the press here.
• 2:21
  Here's what Jay Baker 89 says, content rich and essential for all LOs, speaking from
• 2:26
  the position of an independent broker that's starting over from absolute zero in a new
• 2:30
  market.
• 2:31
  Mortgage Marketing Radio is an incredible resource.
• 2:33
  The content offered here for absolutely free would cost thousands in courses or coaching
• 2:40
  anywhere else.
• 2:41
  Keep up the awesome work.
• 2:42
  Wow.
• 2:43
  That's an awesome review.
• 2:44
  Thanks Jay Baker 89.
• 2:46
  And you're going to be getting this swag box.
• 2:48
  If you DM me, PM me, whatever on the socials, you're mailing address and t-shirt size.
• 2:53
  If you're listening, please do so so we can take care of you and appreciate you leaving
• 2:57
  that review.
• 2:58
  All right.
• 2:59
  So let's talk about my guest, my very special guest who this is a long time coming.
• 3:06
  We've been talking for probably on and off for, I don't know, maybe eight months, maybe
• 3:10
  a year or so.
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  And it was about time that I brought this young lady on the podcast to bring her wealth
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  of knowledge and expertise all about Instagram.
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  That's right.
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  Instagram.
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  Right.
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  What does Michelle Burman do?
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  Michelle Burman, owner of Burman Media.
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  She specializes in building, growing and monetizing companies on Instagram, helping you
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  to build marketing campaigns, build awareness, build relationships and build referrals.
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  And the cool thing about Michelle is she specializes in the real estate and mortgage industry.
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  She's been working with real estate agents, mortgage professionals, both in helping them
• 3:47
  step up their Instagram presence, but also teaching classes, doing, you know, coaching
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  them, leading them, enjoying them, kicking them in the butt in some cases, like with me,
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  to get my Instagram game on.
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  And so if you've ever wondered about, hey, is Instagram really worth it?
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  Do I need to be on Instagram?
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  How do I even get started?
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  How do I show up in the right way?
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  What's the right way to build my brand?
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  What's the wrong way?
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  Do I do stories?
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  Do I do feed posts?
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  Do I do IGTV?
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  How can I actually engage with realtors, you know, all that kind of stuff?
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  How can you get chosen, right, and have people be attracted to you?
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  Well, we unpack all of that with Michelle on this episode.
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  And yeah, this is just, it's a clinic for me all about Instagram and how to master that.
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  And so we're going to put links in the show notes to everything that Michelle has to offer.
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  She has what's called a Instagram power method.
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  If you're interested in learning more about that, there'll be a link in the show notes
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  for you.
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  On that, follow her on Instagram.
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  We'll put a link, of course, in the show notes to her Instagram feed.
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  But she's at Burman Media Social.
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  On Instagram, she can go grab, follow her there, check out her profile, check out her contents,
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  really good stuff.
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  Burman Media Social on Instagram.
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  And without further ado, let's get into this week's show.
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  Michelle Burman, welcome to the show.
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  Thank you so much for having me, Jeff.
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  Excited to be here.
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  Pumped to have you.
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  I feel like I got to flex my muscles, because you know.
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  I'm flexing out.
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  There you go.
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  Awesome.
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  Hey, glad to have you here.
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  You and I have been chatting for, it feels like a year now, right?
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  I mean, yeah, just about.
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  It's crazy.
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  So you have a crazy schedule as do most of us.
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  For the listeners, give us your personal version.
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  Let me ask it, let me ask it this way, because I gave the formal kind of intro up front.
• 5:29
  Let me just get ready to add, you know, you and I talked before.
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  I'm going to approach this in a total organic way.
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  So your expertise is Instagram for real estate and mortgage, right?
• 5:38
  Correct.
• 5:39
  Okay.
• 5:40
  Tell us how long you've been working in that space, and why is it Instagram for you?
• 5:45
  So I have been working solely with real estate agents and lenders since January of 2018.
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  So it's been almost going on two years now, not quite two years.
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  And how I got into that space was essentially decided that trying to be a master jack of
• 6:00
  all trades as far as industries were concerned was a little exhausting.
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  I had clients in pretty much any sphere of business that you can imagine from like
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  hair salons all the way to, you know, real estate lenders, a dog walker, like all kinds
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  of crazy companies.
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  And I found my passion to really lie in the real estate market and with the lending side
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  of business because I just love that side of life.
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  I love building houses.
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  My fiance and I are hoping to do so ourselves one day.
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  And I'm a big HGTV fan, big chip and joint against fan for all my ladies out there.
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  I was just watching that last night.
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  I mean, it's like the most amazing show, Fixer Upper.
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  But so that is how I really decided like we're based off the clients.
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  I have where am I most excited to work and it was a pretty natural transition for me.
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  So going on two years and it really came down to what do I love more than anything.
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  And as far as why Instagram, I love this.
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  I genuinely believe at least for the marketing budget side of people or of agents or industry
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  as a whole that it's the most inexpensive way to create a brand, promote your brand
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  and have the most organic and personal connection that doesn't cost you a dollar to do.
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  So it's pretty much in my opinion the smorgasbord of perfect because you can be you.
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  You're supposed to be you.
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  But at the same time, you can provide value and you can do it all for free.
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  I think that's a new term.
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  The smorgasbord of perfect.
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  That's how I heard of that.
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  That's pretty good.
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  We're going with it.
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  All right.
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  Okay.
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  Instagram for you.
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  And I'm multitasking here, looking at kind of your feed and some other things to talk
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  about here.
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  So it's Instagram for you.
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  Thank you for that backgrounder.
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  Yeah.
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  So my self-proclaimed title, if you will, here for the podcast is Chief Truth Teller.
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  So I think one of the reasons why people like listening to this is because I'm always
• 8:02
  trying to get down to the truth and not ask those surface level questions but dig deep
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  like the question behind the question.
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  So I'm just going to re-enter this where you and I talked about before before we hit
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  record.
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  And let me ask it this way.
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  Do mortgage and real estate professionals need to be on Instagram to succeed?
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  Do they need to be on Instagram to succeed?
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  No.
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  Should they be on Instagram in order to reach a market that in my opinion is where their
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  main source of leads lies?
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  Yes.
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  All right.
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  Let's unpack that a little bit.
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  Your main source of leads.
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  And what you're going to find is I tend to get like very specific as well.
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  Because I think the quote, main source of leads, don't you think that depends a little
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  bit on, well, I'd love to hear your answers, why you think that Instagram, right?
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  Let's just take that.
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  You're the Instagram gal.
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  You're not the Facebook person.
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  You're not the YouTube.
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  You're the Instagram person.
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  Why do you think, to use your phrase, Instagram quote, main source of leads.
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  Why do you think that actually holds true for real estate mortgage?
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  And I'll tell you why I'm a millennial.
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  I think there's a lot of us out there in this world, right?
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  But I think also the referral based side of business will always be the main source of
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  your funnel right, especially if you've been in the industry for a long time.
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  And even if you're, even if you haven't been, even if you're a brand new realtor that
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  just got your license yesterday, you most likely have a referral network of people that
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  now know that you're a realtor, at least family friends.
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  But my take on it is where are your new pipeline of leads sitting?
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  And the answer to that question in my opinion is Instagram.
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  And here's my unpacked reason.
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  We all have older parents.
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  My parents are in their 60s.
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  I have an older sister who's in her 40s, both of which have no desire whatsoever to be
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  on Instagram.
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  But they both know that I am and they both know that my generation, my millennial generation,
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  that is where we live.
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  So when my parents are getting ready to buy a house in a 55 and older community in Palm
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  Desert, California, who did they call?
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  They called me because they know that I know realtor and I know that I deal with social
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  media as far as what I consume for content and for information and news, if you will,
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  although not all the best news, but still news regardless.
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  And so whether you have a older generation business or a younger generation business,
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  you will see that the people who will be connecting you to a potential lender or a potential
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  real estate agent, whatever are on Instagram, they are consuming it.
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  So subliminally, even if they're consuming realtor, realtor, realtor, and they're seeing
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  all these posts, they're more likely to call one of those people than the person that
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  helped them sell their house two or three years ago, just by nature of this subliminal
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  marketing, really.
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  Do you think, do you ever come across potential clients you're talking with right about helping
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  them work on Instagram?
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  Do you ever feel, where do you stand on maybe Instagram's not right for you?
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  That question.
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  Yeah.
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  My question to them or my response, if you will, I always respond to a question with a question
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  usually, but my response to them would be, do you have somebody who, if you are too busy,
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  which is my favorite response, if you are too busy to be using Instagram, do you have
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  somebody on your team who has delegated, who has been delegated the side of marketing
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  or branding, or do they, are they the person that does your admin work?
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  Are they the person that does your contracts if you're an agent?
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  If you're a lender, do you have like somebody who does all of your upfront stuff before
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  it even lands on your desk as far as taking the application and doing all those things?
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  Because if you have that person on your payroll, if you will, their job description by nature
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  is designed to make your job easier, right?
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  So that would be my response, my first response would be, do you have somebody that's on your
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  team that does that and does it work or, you know, is it going to work for me?
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  The second part of that is it will give back to you as much as you give to it.
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  So if you want to use it as a Legion and you see the value in why I am and other people
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  like me are trying to get you to use the platform, then it's a no-brainer.
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  What's your take on?
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  Look, obviously Facebook owns Instagram and, you know, myself, right?
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  I'm trying to take advantage of some of the ability to appear in both places, right,
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  with the cross-posting and all that kind of stuff or using now Facebook creator and things
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  like that greater studio.
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  Do you think, because my assumption, my guess is based on, like, the level of exposure
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  I've had to people in our industry is that up until recently most have been on Facebook
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  versus Instagram, particularly the older, right, older, 40 plus.
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  And so they've kind of shunned away from Instagram and just, you know, kind of stayed on Facebook,
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  but do you think it's okay to try and cover both bases, you know, with using some of the
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  tools that you can do that?
• 13:16
  Absolutely.
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  Facebook has designed itself to be multi-purpose, like it is in its fund or foundational design,
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  if you will, Mark Zuckerberg is an absolute genius, in my opinion, in more ways than one,
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  but he has designed his platform to be multi-directional on purpose and create, you know, something
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  like creator studio has been designed so that people can be more available to both audiences
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  simultaneously.
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  I've just briefly started using creator studio, I still prefer plain only, it's the application
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  that I use, it's the application that I teach for my students, which allows both Facebook
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  and Instagram and IGTV and now Twitter, excuse me, now Pinterest, but again, all of these
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  tools that are approved by Facebook are designed to allow you to be in multiple places because
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  the value is so important.
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  Okay, exposure is so important.
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  Yeah, I've recently been kind of toying around with creator studio as well and for all
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  of us who are time strapped, it does provide some efficiencies, right?
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  What do we need to be aware of though?
• 14:27
  Well, and let's maybe highlight stories as something different because you can't yet,
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  if I remember correctly, you cannot yet post stories from creator studio.
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  You can in my application?
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  In, oh, you mean in planally.
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  Planally?
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  Correct.
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  Planally, sorry.
• 14:43
  Yeah, but not in creator studio itself.
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  You can't post stories, which is, to me, the big thing on Instagram is.
• 14:51
  Oh, 100%.
• 14:52
  Yeah.
• 14:53
  Yeah.
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  So let's kind of break out the context then in that, okay, so I'm creating a story on
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  Facebook, right?
• 15:00
  And I, if I remember correctly, I'm trying to remember the flow of this.
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  No, I'm doing a story on Instagram, then I can cross post that to Facebook.
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  Yes.
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  Right, right.
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  That's cool to do that.
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  Yeah.
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  I mean, absolutely.
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  Mine happened naturally because my accounts are all connected.
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  Yeah.
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  So if I post on my personal bit, you know, and my business Instagram, really either one,
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  they will show up on my Facebook stories simultaneously.
• 15:23
  Yeah.
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  By the way, you mentioned business account on Instagram, and I'm making certain assumptions,
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  so forgive me listeners, but I assume that you guys already get the fact that you need
• 15:31
  a business account on Instagram versus personal, you know?
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  So I don't even want to go there because I know you've covered that, covered that on
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  other shows, but look, if you're going to do anything meaningful on Instagram, you
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  need a business account.
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  And if you want to know how to convert your personal to a business, well, you know,
• 15:44
  Michelle's got resources for you as well as there's this little thing that is called
• 15:48
  YouTube, and you can learn how to do that possibly there as well.
• 15:51
  Yeah.
• 15:52
  It takes a whole whopping 30 seconds.
• 15:53
  Yeah.
• 15:54
  Exactly.
• 15:55
  Okay.
• 15:56
  So let's share some stories with me on how you see loan officers or realtors winning
• 16:03
  on Instagram.
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  The biggest thing is creating conversation.
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  Conversation is where we convert, right?
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  So the ability to create conversation with people who we may not have the opportunity
• 16:16
  to physically go sit in an office and meet with is the value in that for me.
• 16:22
  You know, I would say maybe a third of my students are all locally to me, but that's
• 16:28
  from attracting them to geotagging and other things that I've been doing.
• 16:32
  And mostly because I am the type of person who I do like to meet you in real life, whether
• 16:37
  it's like you and I Jeff, whether it's on Zoom or whether it's on, you know, pounding
• 16:42
  the pavement meeting at a coffee shop together, but I see as far as what the purpose of all
• 16:49
  of this is, is it allows us to create the virtual handshake that we wouldn't be otherwise
• 16:54
  able to do and to network in a broader sphere versus being so confined to our local Facebook
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  groups in our cities or our local DM group that we make for everybody that lives in Phoenix
• 17:08
  if you're me.
• 17:10
  And it also takes away the boundary of, you don't want to work with me because you can't
• 17:17
  connect with me.
• 17:18
  So like you don't even know that I exist, right?
• 17:21
  But it opens the floodgates for all kinds of, I mean, I've networked with people all over
• 17:27
  the world and it's the power of what this platform allows for me and for my business.
• 17:33
  Yeah, and so I'm just funny, I'm doing some, some looking here at different lenders that
• 17:38
  are on Instagram trying to find some really amazing examples.
• 17:42
  There's this guy Eric Braun out in New York, not your average lender, I don't know if you
• 17:46
  know him, but he's got, he's got 15,000 followers.
• 17:49
  Yeah, he's crushing it.
• 17:51
  Yeah, that's pretty solid, but I'm looking at his content.
• 17:53
  So if an originator is listening to this, right?
• 17:56
  And let's just say they've recognized that obviously the biggest bulk of future buyers
• 18:00
  is millennials.
• 18:02
  And you know, we can look at some of the stats on Instagram, demographics who's there,
• 18:05
  but let's, I mean, look at Instagram's obviously blowing up, what do they have, a billion
• 18:09
  users a day, something like that, going to Instagram.
• 18:11
  It's, it's, and growing probably, yeah.
• 18:13
  I'm reading some quick stats, 70% of users look up a brand on Instagram kind of to your
• 18:17
  point earlier.
• 18:18
  I'm gonna let's face it, right?
• 18:19
  In this business, even though it's a, if you have a highly referral based business,
• 18:22
  we all know they're still going to search you, look you up.
• 18:25
  And yes, some will go to Google, but others will go to social like their preferred platform
• 18:29
  and to be like, you know, so Michelle's a realtor in Arizona.
• 18:32
  I got a referral from someone, so huh, what if she's on IG, let me pull her up, you know?
• 18:36
  Oh, yeah.
• 18:37
  I mean, you can't even get a job these days without on the application, it's saying what's
• 18:40
  your Instagram, what's your Facebook handle, what's your LinkedIn profile.
• 18:43
  Yeah.
• 18:44
  I mean, without a presence like a lot of companies won't even hire you.
• 18:48
  Even if it has nothing to do with, even if the position you're applying for has nothing
• 18:51
  to do with social media.
• 18:52
  Yeah.
• 18:53
  Yeah.
• 18:54
  For sure.
• 18:55
  You probably heard about the girl that just got fired from Panera, I don't know, did you
• 18:59
  see about that?
• 19:00
  No.
• 19:01
  A girl got fired from Panera for posting on her TikTok and her Instagram story behind
• 19:06
  the scenes of how they make their macaroni and cheese.
• 19:08
  Oh, really?
• 19:09
  And she was, in my opinion, probably not the smartest that she decided to tag Panera in
• 19:15
  her story.
• 19:17
  But she actually posted a behind the scenes video of the mac and cheese that comes in a packet
• 19:22
  that you put in a deep fryer, basically, and or not a deep fryer, excuse me, like a unfreeze
• 19:28
  is this frozen bag of mac and cheese.
• 19:30
  She cuts it open with a pair of scissors and dumps the mac and cheese in a bowl and serves
• 19:34
  it.
• 19:35
  Yummy.
• 19:36
  And people, you know, it became this fireball of a conversation of like, should she have
• 19:41
  been fired or not?
• 19:42
  Because I mean, if anything, she was just exposing something.
• 19:45
  So.
• 19:46
  Well, and yeah, they could have handled that very differently as well.
• 19:49
  You know what I mean?
• 19:50
  Had a very transparent conversation about our process and all that stuff you could do
• 19:53
  from branding.
• 19:54
  She probably has some job offers coming her way though.
• 19:56
  I would imagine.
• 19:57
  Yeah.
• 19:58
  You know, that's interesting.
• 20:00
  I've eaten that Panera quite a few times.
• 20:03
  Okay.
• 20:04
  So, and I'm looking at some other stats and we've heard these before in terms of like engagement
• 20:07
  rates.
• 20:08
  You know, there's a percentage and you may know these facts better than me in terms of
• 20:12
  like how many, how many conversations lead to a DM, right?
• 20:15
  There's a lot of DMs happening.
• 20:16
  They're direct messages.
• 20:17
  Yes.
• 20:18
  Yeah.
• 20:19
  So I have an entire module, if you will, that's in my course that's called literally it
• 20:25
  goes down in the DMs.
• 20:27
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:28
  And I teach very strategically how I actually convert somebody from a follower who obviously
• 20:35
  is somebody who is interested in what I'm doing.
• 20:37
  If they've taken the time to follow me.
• 20:39
  And if they obviously fit my niche, which AK real estate or lending.
• 20:43
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:44
  And then I have a, what I call a KPI tracking sheet that I can literally track all the way
• 20:49
  from my initial conversation to how many touch points it took to me took me for, to
• 20:54
  actually convert them.
• 20:56
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:57
  And 95% of my leads, and I have done this math multiple times, but literally 95% of my
• 21:03
  leads are already following me on Instagram before I have an initial conversation with them.
• 21:09
  And they're converting because I'm ending up in their DMs.
• 21:13
  And I have paid to date, I've literally paid zero dollars in any Instagram ads, any Facebook
• 21:18
  ads at all, because it's all about just creating a conversation in your DMs.
• 21:23
  Yeah.
• 21:24
  And I think that's one of the, you know, the reasons why I think people understand
• 21:28
  why they need to step up their presence and have a current relevant presence online is
• 21:33
  that that's the world today.
• 21:34
  People are going to check you out, stalk you, kind of sniff around.
• 21:37
  Who are you, right?
• 21:38
  Or reach out and contact you about lending a real estate?
• 21:40
  Yeah.
• 21:41
  I mean, are you an authority or are you not?
• 21:44
  And it's pretty easy to figure that out pretty much right away.
• 21:48
  You mentioned something earlier, geotagging.
• 21:51
  So I'm reading a stat here, this is from Add Espresso.
• 21:54
  Post with locations gets 79% more engagement.
• 21:57
  How are you using geotagging or how would you suggest those listening use geotagging?
• 22:02
  Multiple different ways.
• 22:03
  So I suggest no matter what you're doing story wise, especially if you are meeting with
• 22:08
  people or if you're a real estate agent trying to sell a property or if you're a lender trying
• 22:13
  to promote a program that is specific to like, for example, I have a client in Utah, just
• 22:19
  in South, South Utah.
• 22:20
  So there's a loan program called Utah Housing.
• 22:23
  And it's very specific to a very specific area.
• 22:27
  And so using geotagging and our stories using geotagging and we're actually posting content
• 22:33
  means that the algorithm is going to know who to show that to versus showing it to somebody
• 22:38
  in New York City that like doesn't care about Utah Housing, you know.
• 22:43
  So in our stories, the biggest thing is if you notice and I encourage everyone to try
• 22:48
  this, if you post the same story one day and do the exact same story the second day,
• 22:53
  the first day post it just like a normal post without any hashtag and without any geotags
• 22:58
  whatsoever.
• 22:59
  And post the second, the exact same thing the second day with your geotag location actually
• 23:05
  like on the story and at least one hashtag that's relevant to whatever you're posting, you
• 23:11
  will see that that 79% will blow your mind like statistically it's literally nine day.
• 23:19
  How does somebody do a geotag?
• 23:21
  So in your stories and I will actually I can even show you on my screen because it might
• 23:25
  help because if people are watching this then they can see it that way.
• 23:29
  But if my wonderful Instagram will show up, but if you say for example, you're posting
• 23:36
  a picture, right?
• 23:37
  So this is a picture actually where I was talking about meeting with you Jeff, but up
• 23:41
  at the top there's a little square sticker that has like a little curve at the bottom
• 23:46
  like a tab opening.
• 23:47
  If you click that, you'll see the location button on the side that literally says location.
• 23:52
  You can click that and you can type in any location.
• 23:55
  It's going to auto populate wherever you are.
• 23:57
  Right.
• 23:58
  So mine, obviously the first thing that shows is Mesa Arizona because that's where I live.
• 24:01
  But you don't have to tag Mesa Arizona.
• 24:03
  You can tag anything you want.
• 24:05
  All you got to do is type it in.
• 24:07
  So whatever you type in, it will show up and that's as simple as it gets as far as tagging.
• 24:12
  Speaking of that, I got to do this right here.
• 24:14
  Take a snapshot.
• 24:15
  There we go.
• 24:16
  There we go.
• 24:17
  Fones in the middle of my face.
• 24:18
  Yes it is.
• 24:19
  Who cares?
• 24:20
  Just get it done.
• 24:21
  Right.
• 24:22
  All right.
• 24:23
  So geotag is cool.
• 24:24
  I like to explain that a little bit for people because, you know, I'm in the older demographic
• 24:29
  and I've just slowly been, it's funny because somebody didn't audit of my, my, my Instagram
• 24:34
  feed.
• 24:35
  And by the way, I'm fully disclosed.
• 24:36
  I suck at Instagram.
• 24:37
  Right.
• 24:38
  I'm working again.
• 24:39
  Better.
• 24:40
  I've been slow to kind of take it up.
• 24:41
  But I have seen the benefits of it for sure.
• 24:42
  But you need to be very intentional and thoughtful and be educated about how to actually make
• 24:45
  the platform work, which is why somebody like you is so valuable.
• 24:49
  So I, for the longest time, never did any hashtags, right?
• 24:53
  And then I'm looking at all these other people that are in my space and I see like somebody
• 24:56
  pointed out, hey man, these are all the hashtags these people are using and look at how many
• 25:00
  followers they have compared to you.
• 25:02
  That's one area you're missing out on is by not leveraging these hashtags to grow your
• 25:05
  followers.
• 25:06
  Yeah.
• 25:07
  So best practices for hashtags.
• 25:09
  So this is a really loaded topic and it's something that I deal with.
• 25:13
  I deal with this literally every single day because I have agent who will call me or
• 25:16
  they'll text me or DM me and say, you know, hey, Michelle, how do I get to 10,000 followers
• 25:21
  so I can have my swipe up feature?
• 25:24
  And first off, you can swipe up or have a swipe up feature without 10,000 followers and
• 25:28
  if you want to know how, then please DM me, but first and foremost, anybody who is educated
• 25:36
  by me will know that my response to you when you care about how big your following is is
• 25:41
  that you shouldn't.
• 25:42
  I don't care if you have nine followers or 900 followers because if you have 900 followers
• 25:46
  that can't do anything for you and can't bring you any business, it's a complete waste
• 25:50
  of 900 followers.
• 25:52
  But if you have nine followers and all nine of them are target specific, demographic
• 25:56
  specific and actually genuinely interested in what you're doing and you're likely to
• 26:01
  convert nine out of nine versus it may be 10 out of 900 or people that can actually bring
• 26:07
  you business like the ratios are messed up there, right?
• 26:11
  But as far as hashtagging and the correct way to do it, here's my biggest piece of advice
• 26:16
  if I can do it quickly.
• 26:19
  When you're creating hashtagging, especially if you're a real estate agent or if you're
• 26:22
  a lender, right, you don't want to attract other lenders and you don't want to attract
• 26:26
  other real estate agents.
• 26:27
  So how do we do that?
• 26:28
  The answer to how to not do that and not end up with just a crap ton of other real estate
• 26:33
  agents following us is developing a hashtag matrix is what I call them that will actually
• 26:38
  attract whoever your ideal client is.
• 26:41
  So first and foremost, we have to know who that is.
• 26:44
  But secondly, we have to also determine that if I am that person, if I put myself in
• 26:48
  the shoes of that ideal client, what am I searching on Instagram?
• 26:52
  So if I am a brand new person getting ready to buy a house, what am I searching?
• 26:57
  What am I looking up and then creating matrices around that versus assuming that people will
• 27:03
  be looking at it from a real estate agent's perspective, if I'm a buyer living in Phoenix
• 27:08
  and I want to look up properties in Arizona or real terms of who I might want to work
• 27:13
  with.
• 27:14
  Me as the buyer, I'm going to search AZ realtors, I'm going to search AZ homes, I'm going
• 27:19
  to search AZ living, I'm going to search AZ events like things that are going to tell
• 27:25
  me about what's going on in the area.
• 27:27
  So if I'm the realtor trying to attract me, I have to create hashtagging around how
• 27:33
  to attract that person, if that makes sense.
• 27:36
  No, it does.
• 27:37
  Could you even get more specific like, you know, hashtag Gilbert Homes, hashtag mag up
• 27:40
  and make some homes?
• 27:41
  Oh, yeah.
• 27:42
  So the end of the way to do this in a really very smart way is to really be conscious of
• 27:49
  the hashtag size that you're choosing.
• 27:51
  So if you're choosing hashtags that are over a million uses, it's a waste.
• 27:55
  If you're choosing hashtags that are under 10,000 uses, it's also a waste because it's
• 28:01
  too small, unless very key, unless it's a, it is a branded hashtag, right?
• 28:06
  So if you're a real estate agent and you're a part of a team, say for example, you're the
• 28:10
  Clark team, which is one of my teams here in Phoenix.
• 28:14
  But if they are the Clark team, then they should put that in their hashtag grouping as the
• 28:19
  Clark team, because that's their branding, just like Nike, right?
• 28:23
  Whatever, what you want, anytime you see this, whoosh, you don't even need any words.
• 28:26
  You just know what that means.
• 28:28
  Right.
• 28:29
  So it's the same concept, but anything over a million uses, if you're, if you have any
• 28:32
  understanding of the algorithm, what you'll know is that the bigger the hashtag, the faster
• 28:38
  you get shuffled, like shuffled down the feed.
• 28:41
  So unless somebody sees you within a matter of a few seconds or minutes, you're going,
• 28:45
  even, I encourage you guys even to test this.
• 28:48
  Use hashtag hashtag real estate agent and then use the same exact hashtag the next day of
• 28:53
  real estate agents with an S and see how much that longer you stay at the top of your
• 29:00
  feed.
• 29:01
  All right.
• 29:02
  Let me back this a little bit.
• 29:03
  So I'm searching right now, hashtag Mesa Holmes.
• 29:06
  Uh-huh.
• 29:07
  There's a thousand plus posts, too small, too small, but we're looking for 10,000 or
• 29:12
  more, 10,000 or more.
• 29:14
  So look up AZ homes, um, something like, uh, Mesa AZ, like Mesa Mesa, Mesa AZ, I mean,
• 29:24
  you're, it's just a question of do people actually type that in?
• 29:26
  I know I'm trying to make you work through this, but the average, the average user, would
• 29:30
  they actually type in Mesa AZ homes, or they're just going to do like Phoenix homes, you
• 29:34
  know, AZ homes.
• 29:35
  It depends on the user, right?
• 29:36
  Because if they know, if they're, if they live in Arizona, like, for me, right, when
• 29:40
  I bought the house that I currently live in, I was actually living in another city in
• 29:44
  Arizona.
• 29:45
  Yeah.
• 29:46
  Um, but my fiance and I wanted to live in Mesa, specifically East Mesa, because there
• 29:51
  was a lot bigger property size at like lot sizes, um, we have two really ran bunches
• 29:57
  dogs and we have a hopefully growing family here soon.
• 30:01
  So we needed more land and we needed a bigger house for less money.
• 30:05
  And we knew that Mesa was that place.
• 30:07
  So for me, as somebody who was consuming Instagram, I look up hashtag Mesa AZ, because I
• 30:13
  know that that's where I want to go.
• 30:15
  Okay.
• 30:16
  Let's continue this thread then.
• 30:17
  Um, so I did hashtag AZ homes.
• 30:19
  There's, um, 42,000 posts, um, with the hashtag, I can choose to follow little glare there,
• 30:27
  but I can choose to follow this hashtag.
• 30:29
  My question though is with 41,000 posts, um, how am I going to get found in that?
• 30:36
  So if you click over to the recent tab, yeah, so right now, you should see the top tab.
• 30:41
  If you click over to the recent tab, that's where you'll get found.
• 30:44
  Is anybody and people know to click that recent tab?
• 30:47
  Yeah, because that's where anybody who, if you're looking up people who have recently
• 30:52
  used that hashtag and you want to see what's happening right here right now, it's recent.
• 30:57
  Because top tag, if you look at like the first person under the top one, the post may
• 31:01
  be two, three months old, um, but the recent tab is literally showing chronologically who's
• 31:08
  the most recent person to abuse that.
• 31:10
  What, what keeps that top post in that, those top positions, um, the very simple answer
• 31:16
  is base off your ratio of how many followers you have and how fast and how quickly you
• 31:21
  got likes, that's the answer on that post, okay.
• 31:25
  On that post.
• 31:26
  So if you have 900 followers, but you've got 40 likes in the first five minutes,
• 31:30
  but and you have 20 followers and you've got 50 likes in the first nine minutes or whatever,
• 31:36
  you're going to, that person, even though you have a way smaller following, you're going
• 31:38
  to be at the top. All right, ratio is higher.
• 31:42
  So then that, the key, what's important about that is number one, use the right hashtags.
• 31:47
  And by the way, what's interesting and I think useful about, um, Instagram with this hashtag.
• 31:51
  So I went to the hashtag AZ homes, what it'll show you.
• 31:55
  It also is the related hashtags that might be good to add to your post, right?
• 31:59
  Correct. Yep.
• 32:00
  It is the top 10 most searched aside from what you just typed in.
• 32:04
  So do you recommend people, uh, kind of create a notepad, just cut and paste those hashtags
• 32:08
  with all their posts?
• 32:10
  Yeah. So yes, but in the software plenoli, you are able to actually how was all of your hashtag
• 32:16
  and you're back in that plenoli, aren't you, man?
• 32:18
  I won't use anything else.
• 32:21
  Yeah, um, plenoli is the gold mine of Instagram.
• 32:24
  It allows you, you know, a lot of us have previously had to like literally copy and paste note
• 32:29
  or from our notes like our 30 hashtags and then go and post them after we manually update or upload
• 32:35
  a post. Um, plenoli will house all of those hashtags and you literally just click the ad button
• 32:40
  and all 30 of them auto generate and with your caption.
• 32:42
  I just lost later.com and Gora Paul says sponsor, but that's okay.
• 32:49
  I'm just kidding. Not even close. I do think it's awesome.
• 32:52
  It's funny. Um, yeah, this is really cool because this is an area of weakness for me.
• 32:56
  And I know a lot of other people too because we want to, we want to get discovered
• 33:00
  on the platforms. And so the trick here is you got to know how to get discovered.
• 33:04
  There's, there's rules to the game.
• 33:06
  There's major rules to the game.
• 33:08
  And once you actually are effectively using hashtags,
• 33:11
  the next step is rules of the engagement, right?
• 33:14
  Of how, as the person trying to grow, how should you be engaging?
• 33:19
  Who you should be engaging with, where you should be engaging, right?
• 33:22
  Not just, oh, if I just click on every one of the hashtags I use and like or two or three pictures,
• 33:27
  I'm going to grow. Like, yes, you will.
• 33:29
  But there's, there's a much more strategic and much more step by step way that will make sure
• 33:35
  that you don't just get found, but you get found by the people that can bring you business.
• 33:39
  Okay. And I want to talk about the step by step ways.
• 33:41
  But I've, I've, I've come across here something that I know is, is ridiculous.
• 33:45
  And people need to wake up and stop doing this.
• 33:47
  You've seen Lenders post finance flyers on Instagram.
• 33:50
  Oh my gosh.
• 33:52
  Pepe 101 with Michelle Berman is screenshots of flyers.
• 33:57
  Right. That are too small to read and annoy people and cause them to unfollow you.
• 34:02
  And you can't, I mean, you literally can't read it.
• 34:04
  And the, the biggest thing I will tell people, this is like a fun fact, right?
• 34:07
  If you post a flyer that has like the top 10 tips or the top 10 financial
• 34:12
  points of our market for the last quarter, like, do you not just read or hear what you just read?
• 34:18
  You just gave me 10 tips. Why are you giving it to me in one post? That's 10 posts,
• 34:23
  worth of content that you just posted in a screenshot.
• 34:26
  And if you break it down and you actually make it like what I call a value series and create
• 34:31
  value around that one flyer, you're going to keep coming back because they're going to want the
• 34:36
  rest of the tips. But why are we wasting a piece of content that has 10 things in it
• 34:43
  for in one shot? One shot is done. Yeah.
• 34:47
  Excuse me. What are some of your rules of engagement?
• 34:50
  Um, the biggest one is doing what I call the 25 comment challenge.
• 34:55
  And I won't give away the secret of what that actually is. But I will tell you that there is a
• 34:59
  25 comment challenge that all of my students do every single day. And it's a very strategic
• 35:03
  way to comment who to comment on and how much like basically qualifying them as a potential
• 35:09
  person that deserves your comment. And based off that, that's where my students will grow.
• 35:15
  And that's why they grow in a very targeted and specific area and way that will actually
• 35:22
  generate leads for them. Okay. Interesting. Um, what is there anything? I don't know if this is
• 35:29
  a good question because it's pretty broad, but like what tends to get the most engagement on
• 35:33
  Instagram? Um, videos is really big right now informational videos and it doesn't have to be your
• 35:39
  fancy video auger for a video. It can be like an off the cuff video that you take while you're
• 35:43
  walking your dog. Um, people love it. Um, and the second thing I will say is the lifestyle side
• 35:50
  of things. So while we have to be really good at producing value with it. And when I say value,
• 35:56
  I say business oriented information, um, we can do it in a way that grabs our reader better.
• 36:03
  Right. So if you guys can zoom for immediate content, um, or for media social as my Instagram
• 36:08
  handle, but if you can zoom my content, you'll see that 90% of what I publish is personal.
• 36:13
  It's me. It's my fiance. It's us in Sedona. It's, um, you know, my favorite coffee shop. It's
• 36:19
  an example of a chip and Joanna Gaines house that I can't wait to design. Or it's like, um, you
• 36:24
  know, very behind the scenes, very who is Michelle Berman. And then my captions are where my meat
• 36:30
  potatoes are as far as value value value business occasionally sprinkled in. Uh, by captions,
• 36:37
  do you mean on your videos? Or just do you talk about in the post? I'm talking the caption in
• 36:41
  the post. Okay. The video will grab them. The lifestyle image will grab them. The caption is
• 36:46
  what keeps them and converts them. Got it. What, what does your take on these types of branding video
• 36:52
  or pictures rather here? You know, um, what do you want my honest answer? Yeah. They're overused.
• 37:00
  They're overused. So that's interesting. And maybe I'm just, you know, thinking through it to
• 37:04
  I'm just wondering if the average consumer, you know, it dawns on them that, you know, what you've
• 37:09
  got there is you're out somewhere and, you know, somebody's taking a photo of you at your computer
• 37:14
  having a coffee somewhere. Yes, it's an attractive well done photo. But I'm just wondering like,
• 37:19
  does this really have brand impact? So here's my biggest thing. I want to be attainable to any,
• 37:28
  any person, right? I want to be the person that anybody, whether you're an agent or a lender that
• 37:34
  is brand new and doesn't have any money because you have, you have never done it before. And I also
• 37:39
  want to attract the luxury list reading real estate agent that sees me as somebody who's of equal to
• 37:45
  them. Right. So, um, are the branded photo shoots important? Yes, right? It's, it's an important
• 37:52
  way to establish authority. But is it equally as important to, if you're me at least I love
• 38:00
  posting in the morning and just being bedhead and like getting on my story and saying, here's what
• 38:06
  it's going on for my day or like a behind the scenes of me at the gym or just me being me because
• 38:12
  I also attract people on a human level versus I am a still image behind a really fancy camera.
• 38:20
  Do you think is the bedhead, you know, kind of rolling out? Here's what's on my thing. Do you think
• 38:28
  that's right for everybody? I think that the value behind personal, the personal touch,
• 38:35
  whether that's bedhead or whether that's you behind the scenes on date night with your,
• 38:39
  you know, husband, wife, fiance, whatever, is absolutely instrumental in whether or not you
• 38:46
  will convert on the platform. Absolutely. Whether it's like super, super personal, like no makeup,
• 38:50
  hair and a bun, you know, bedhead, I'm literally laying in bed or whether that's, you know, maybe
• 38:57
  a little less personal. Yeah. Whatever you're personally comfortable with, but get more transparent.
• 39:03
  Absolutely. Like people hire people and Gary Vee, you know, anybody who knows me knows that I love
• 39:08
  Gary Vee and I love that his mentality behind entrepreneurship. And I don't just love Gary Vee
• 39:15
  because he's well spoken. I love Gary Vee because he's honest, like he's really honest. And
• 39:24
  being personal and being who you are is so important because people hire people. And especially
• 39:31
  on Instagram, we don't, I don't just, I'm not going to hire the agent that looks like they've
• 39:35
  done the most business, looks like they've been able to get me or get people the most money for
• 39:39
  their houses. I'm going to hire the person who, oh my gosh, you're an Olympic weightlifting
• 39:43
  here too. Oh wow, wait, hold on, you also live in Mesa. And wait a minute, you're also
• 39:48
  marrying somebody that's in the military. Holy shoot me too. Right. And now I have this in
• 39:53
  same connection with this person. And I go have coffee with them. And I love them. Even though
• 39:58
  they're not the most seasoned and most experienced realtor, they resonate with me.
• 40:04
  Interesting. People hire people. We don't hire, I mean, what makes you different than the other
• 40:09
  realtor? What makes you different than the other lender down the road? How are you different to me?
• 40:14
  Well, but that's just it's a lot of people don't think that they are different. They think their
• 40:18
  lives are average and boring. People might think that my life's boring because I work from home and
• 40:24
  all I do is work out, eat movies and or drink finished movies and hike. No, but see, but the
• 40:32
  point is it's not what you think, right? And look, I think the same thing, you know what I mean?
• 40:37
  That's the struggle. I think for those of us that aren't, you know, quote younger, if you will,
• 40:42
  it's much more natural for for people that I would say, let's just say under 40,
• 40:45
  they kind of do be doing this out and about because what people I've talked to feel that that
• 40:52
  constant focus on self, they feel it's overly promotional. Self-promotion.
• 40:57
  I think it depends on how you do it and do you do it correctly in a way that doesn't feel
• 41:02
  salesy? And the way that it doesn't feel salesy is just be real, be raw, quit-pitching, right?
• 41:10
  Yeah, it should be, you know, I'm sure a lot of people have probably heard this, the 20%
• 41:14
  business, 80% personal number. When I teach how to develop a content calendar, if you will,
• 41:21
  which is what I call my content Bible or 30-day content schedule, essentially is 15 posts a month
• 41:30
  or lifestyle images. That's just me being me. That's just me with my fiancee in Sedona.
• 41:34
  That's me at my favorite coffee shop. That's me on date night or out with my girlfriends. That's
• 41:39
  just me. Five of them are testimonials, aka, you know, people who have said good things about me.
• 41:47
  Five of them are value series driven, aka I'm literally asking for business in these five posts.
• 41:53
  And then the other five are if I'm a real estate agent or if I'm a lender, the other, the remaining
• 41:59
  five are talking about a lending program or posting and talking about listings that you have
• 42:05
  or buyers that have just closed, so an under contract style post. But if you do the math and you
• 42:10
  add that up, that's 30. Hmm, interesting. Are you scheduling a lot of those out in advance on
• 42:16
  planally, planally? Planally? Yeah, planally. I can only say exactly. So yes, I teach them to
• 42:26
  be able to sit down and have your templates scheduled and pre-plan so that you can create 30 days
• 42:32
  of content and a matter of a few hours on a Sunday with a couple of coffee in your hand.
• 42:36
  And what about the design elements of those for those that lack the skills?
• 42:41
  There's this fun tool called Canva. Okay. And if you've never heard of Canva, please google it.
• 42:47
  But Canva is the dream for all of us who are not
• 42:52
  right graphically inclined. So you wouldn't consider yourself graphically inclined?
• 42:57
  No, I mean, I don't have a graphic design degree whatsoever. I have a degree in psychology and
• 43:01
  social media. Yeah, well, there you go. But to your point, Canva and other tools, right? They've
• 43:05
  got all the templates and stuff that make it easy. Easy. What are you doing or any quick comments
• 43:12
  on IGTV? Yeah, I love IGTV. Try saying that three times fast. I love using IGTV and I actually
• 43:21
  teach it as a value series basically where you can create three to five of them for the month.
• 43:27
  And that becomes like your value for the whatever the topic is that you're discussing for that
• 43:32
  month. I have several agents who specialize in, you know, buy and sell at the same time and a lot
• 43:37
  of them are dealing with people who are moving from out of state or into state. So they create an
• 43:42
  entire series for the month on things that you wouldn't think about when you're trying to move out
• 43:47
  of state, right? And they turn those into videos and people can hear their voices. They can hear
• 43:52
  how they talk. They turn them into this really very simple IGTV video with a great cover photo,
• 43:58
  if you will, which again can be made in Canva. Super simple. And they post that on the day that
• 44:04
  they're supposed to post and people consume them as longer sequences, right? Because IGTV can be
• 44:10
  any maximum minutes. There's no minimum of the or maximum of the one minute regular standard
• 44:16
  Instagram video. So it allows Instagram to basically be more of a YouTube channel all in one.
• 44:23
  Yeah, so it's going to say it's it's kind of like YouTube for the Instagram or users, you know.
• 44:29
  Yeah, I've started to do more stuff on IGTV because I do think it has relevance. And it's like,
• 44:33
  I think YouTube is incredibly valuable too. But, you know, I'm Congress and I've like,
• 44:38
  do I am I trying to take people off of the platform, right? That they want to be on. So if I can
• 44:43
  give that same video content on IGTV and they're already there, why not do it, right? Yeah,
• 44:47
  instead of setting them up. The least amount of steps to get somebody from a worker to a lead is
• 44:55
  the best. Ooh, there's a new program from Lurker to Leeds for Jeff and Michelle. Okay, awesome.
• 45:05
  So yes, reduce the friction. That's what I was trying to think of. All right, cool. So I know
• 45:08
  you're a wealth of knowledge. We've barely scratched the surface here when it comes to Instagram,
• 45:12
  things like that. Let's talk about some of the cool things you got available for loan officers,
• 45:16
  resources, those that are listening that are like, Hey, man, I want more. What's the next step?
• 45:20
  Let's talk about your program for agents and lenders, the Instagram power method. What do you
• 45:28
  want to tell us about that? Correct. So the Instagram power method is a very strategic,
• 45:32
  very step by step program that goes from the very basics of how do I develop a presence on
• 45:39
  Instagram that's niche and designed around a specific target audience. And it ends with
• 45:46
  these two bonus modules. The first one being it goes down in the DM. So I teach you how to
• 45:50
  strategically sell there. And then the second one, which is a brand new one just went live last
• 45:55
  week, is how to actually turn either your new lending program that you have available or something
• 46:00
  that you're trying to market or your new listing into an actual IG story ad. So I actually teach
• 46:07
  you how to turn what would be either your still images of your listing or maybe that video you took
• 46:12
  up a walkthrough real quick and combine them into a really powerful ad that can help you both generate
• 46:19
  buyers for a listing that you know is going to sell in five seconds and also help you sell a listing
• 46:25
  that might be harder to sell one. Yeah, unless I forget the supplies to lenders as well, whether it's
• 46:32
  your own personal consumption or like you and I've talked lenders teaming up with realtors to
• 46:37
  learn this content together and kind of have your own accountability group in conjunction. Yes,
• 46:42
  creating a team and taking the program as a team. I allow teams of up to five. And these people
• 46:49
  get their own one-on-one session with me every week. It's a very you know homework assigned
• 46:55
  basically Zoom call where you guys will all be told, you know, hey, this is what you I've seen
• 47:00
  from consuming your content over the last week. Here's your homework. Let's do this. Yeah,
• 47:04
  I know you've worked your your ass off on this thing and it's well thought out and well structured.
• 47:09
  So I want to applaud you because I know it's not easy, you know, create. It's benefactors a book
• 47:14
  and I see it on my shelf still. The War of Art. I don't know if you've ever heard of that Stephen
• 47:18
  Presley. Sounds like I need to read it. It's a really cool book for those of us that are creators
• 47:22
  because it's that's it's a battle right to create and you know it's a play obviously on the art
• 47:27
  of war. This is the War of Art. Really cool. Stephen Presfield. But it's a very short book too,
• 47:32
  which is easy. Amazon coming in. Yeah, right. It's insightful talking about fighting against
• 47:37
  the resistance. All right. So let's talk about how do people who want to learn more? And I'm
• 47:41
  going to put links in the show notes, but give out the URL for people who want to check that out.
• 47:45
  So it's a very specific URL, which is why I'm glad Jeff is going to make sure it's in the show notes
• 47:50
  because it will be easily typed in incorrectly if not paid attention to. So it's
• 47:54
  firm and media PDP is in Paul D is in dog.com forward slash Instagram power method. So one word,
• 48:03
  but the I and Instagram, the P and power and the M and method have to be capitalized.
• 48:09
  So that is the URL. It will actually show you the entire module breakdown of exactly what's
• 48:14
  covered in every section of the whole thing. It'll also show you some payment options as far as
• 48:19
  monthly. If that's maybe something that's better for you, the annual version as well as the
• 48:23
  team version. So lots of testimonials, lots of great feedback from other students and just some
• 48:29
  really good opportunities for you guys to get to know more a little bit about what I do.
• 48:34
  Yeah, fantastic. And for those who want to connect with you on Instagram, what's your handle there?
• 48:37
  Berman media, social. Awesome. So listen, Michelle, thank you so much. I'm glad we finally came
• 48:44
  together to do this. I know you've you've got to go and I've got to go. So people reach out to
• 48:49
  Michelle. If you got more questions, but I highly support what she's doing. I encourage you guys
• 48:53
  to take further action. So thanks, Michelle. Thank you very much, Jeff. Thank you to everyone
• 48:58
  for listening. Yeah, you bet. Listeners, as always, you know, to do if you like this episode,
• 49:01
  reach out. Let us know. Leave us a review on the socials. And we appreciate you. We'll see you
• 49:06
  on the next one. Bye for now. Thanks for listening to Mortgage Marketing Radio. One more truth
• 49:13
  in Mortgage Marketing. Get more free training and resources at MortgageMarketingInstitute.com.
• 49:35
  Hey guys, what's up real quick? You've heard about the Mortgage Marketing Pro membership
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