Latest / The Psychology of Relationships / Love Addiction: Why You Can’t Stop Chasing Relationships (And How to Break the Cycle) w/ Sherry Gaba

Transcript

Love Addiction: Why You Can’t Stop Chasing Relationships (And How to Break the Cycle) w/ Sherry Gaba · The Psychology of Relationships

• 0:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Julie Kraftcheck, and I'm UASU.
• 0:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is the Psychology of Relationships.
• 0:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: We've all heard of addiction in many forms.
• 0:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: But what happens when the thing you can't stop chasing is love itself.
• 0:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: For some people, the desire for connection can become a pattern of obsession, losing themselves in relationships, or constantly seeking validation from another person.
• 0:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: In this episode, we're joined by Sherry Gaba, licensed psychotherapist, relationship addiction expert, and author, known for her work helping people break unhealthy relationship patterns.
• 0:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: As a featured expert on celebrity rehab with Dr. Drew, Sherry has helped people understand the deeper emotional roots behind addiction and recovery, including her own journey overcoming relationship addiction.
• 0:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Together, we explore what separates a healthy desire for love.
• 0:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: The science that attachment has turned into obsession and how to build confidence in self-worth.
• 0:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: outside of a relationship.
• 1:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because finding love shouldn't mean losing yourself.
• 1:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: True connection starts with learning how to feel whole, with or without a partner.
• 1:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Remember to subscribe to the psychology of relationships on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
• 1:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if this episode shifted how you think about love in self-worth, we love a rating or review.
• 1:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is the psychology of relationships.
• 1:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you're listening to an episode that just might change the way you show up for love.
• 1:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Enjoy.
• 1:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: different kinds of things you can be addicted to can be addicted to drugs.
• 1:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can be addicted to sex.
• 1:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can also be addicted to relationships.
• 1:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's a little new for me.
• 1:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: And our expert today, Sherry Gaba, she is the expert on relationship addiction.
• 1:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: But what is relationship addiction?
• 1:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: And how does it?
• 1:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: How does it show up for people?
• 1:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's really interesting.
• 1:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, thank you for having me.
• 1:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really excited to be here.
• 1:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, you know, substances is a little different than what we call a relationship addiction.
• 1:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: A relationship addiction is a process addiction.
• 2:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: So when you think of like food addictions, or gambling addictions, or codependency, or shopping, dating, those are all process addictions.
• 2:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's the same sort of feelings that drive addiction, which is usually some kind of
• 2:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: early trauma, some kind of abandonment issues, some kind of attachment issue, dysfunctional parenting, abuse, some kind of neglect.
• 2:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's very interesting because really you're always chasing that first high of love.
• 2:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: You really need to be with somebody to be
• 2:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: feeling whole.
• 2:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's the person's only identity.
• 2:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: So when a breakup occurs, this addictive lover longs for the attachment and the pleasurable feelings of the lost relationship, as much as the drug user is longing for their fix.
• 2:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you think of a heroin addict needing a fix, well, and always chasing that first high, that first crack high, that first cocaine high, first heroin high, the love addict relationship addict is always looking for the first high of their
• 3:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: is being addicted to relationships different than being addicted to love.
• 3:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's interesting.
• 3:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: I kind of put them in the same category.
• 3:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think they're very similar or maybe relationship means you have to be in a relationship.
• 3:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe love is I have to be in love, which to me is really the same thing.
• 3:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: There are some professionals that differentiate
• 3:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would say romance addiction might be a little different like you're always addicted to the high of the beginnings, you know, that romance, you know, just like an attic maybe or an alcoholic sort of romance is over the opening up the wine in the court and, you know, serving them in beautiful wine glasses.
• 3:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the romance addict is all about the first date and.
• 3:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, where are they going to take me and, you know, the roses and all of that, but they all sort of overlap.
• 3:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't really worry about the word too much.
• 3:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really here to talk about, you know, obsess obsession.
• 3:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's basically an addiction to to someone having to be coupled up feeling lost without a relationship, you know, normal dating is you go on a date and then maybe it turns into a relationship and then sort of that bubble fades a little bit, which fades anyway, but the love attitude never fades.
• 4:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're always in that high zone, you know, that love high zone.
• 4:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: I always go through some of the signs and symptoms because there may be someone going, I still don't get it, and is it me?
• 4:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is it me?
• 4:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of times love addiction, relationship addiction overlaps with codependency.
• 4:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's an overadapting to what others want.
• 4:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you'll do anything for that relationship, which is also an codependent characteristic.
• 4:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: you have no boundaries.
• 4:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: You are just petrified of letting go.
• 4:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: You are really scared about living the unknown.
• 4:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: You have to know.
• 4:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: So for daters out there, you know, that's that are love addicts.
• 4:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's really painful.
• 4:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're always trying to change, fix manipulate others to be what they want them to be.
• 4:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're sort of in love with the illusion instead of the person themselves.
• 4:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: They need someone else to make them feel whole.
• 4:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: They need that that outside affirmation for their self
• 5:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.
• 5:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: So in your book, you go deep into your own personal story about relationship addiction.
• 5:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: Can you kind of take us through your own story, your own past relationships and marriages?
• 5:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
• 5:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for asking me that.
• 5:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the main reason I wrote this book is I really want to eradicate the shame around, well, regular addiction, of course, but really the shame around having multiple relationships or, in my case, multiple marriages.
• 5:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I was a love addict from the get-go and when I share my trauma story, you'll understand.
• 5:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: People don't just wake up and say, oh, I want to have a bunch of failed relationships, oh, I want to have a really bad picker.
• 5:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I want to be abused or I want to be with a narcissist or an addict.
• 5:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: There are reasons that we pick these people.
• 5:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And even in my, you know, 50s, I finally believe I got it.
• 5:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I left the alcoholic fourth husband when I was in my early 50s.
• 5:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: and I really went on a journey of, you know, uncovering and discovering.
• 5:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: I worked with my trauma early trauma stuff that I really never worked on and the way I worked on it was more of a body type therapy where you really get the energy of your trauma out instead of just talking about it.
• 6:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: You actually release that energy and
• 6:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can talk about that, but I was a pre-me, and I always tell people the story I was an incubator for two and a half months.
• 6:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a little older than you lovely ladies, and in those days, pre-mees, they did know that they had special needs, they didn't understand bonding, attachment, and so I literally did not meet my mother for two and a half months.
• 6:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: I basically was not touched, nurtured, bonded, attuned.
• 6:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so I really always was looking on the outside, looking for that approval.
• 6:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was being fed through my feet.
• 6:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: They probably wasn't fed a bottle those first few months.
• 6:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm pretty sure they didn't pick me up all that much because they could feed me through my feet.
• 6:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I always felt different.
• 6:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, when I was growing up if my parents were going out on a Saturday night, my little brother would be like,
• 6:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I would be like, blah, don't leave, don't leave.
• 7:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I always knew that I was different.
• 7:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then I got that first hit at 14 with my first boyfriend.
• 7:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that was like, oh my God.
• 7:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: So this is what I've been missing.
• 7:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Just like the alcoholic says about their first glass.
• 7:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: So wine or the heroin, the first hit.
• 7:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, oh, this feels so good.
• 7:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And now I feel whole.
• 7:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: And now I feel loved.
• 7:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like a belong.
• 7:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: And really, that was it, and so I was in complete terror when I wasn't in a relationship.
• 7:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: And problem is it sets you up for being abused, sets you up for, you know, having predators find you because you'll settle for anything, you know, you'll settle for less.
• 7:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a lot of what I did.
• 7:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: So what happened in your first marriage?
• 7:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: Can you kind of take us through a couple of, like, the first marriage?
• 7:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, take us through all your marriage of God.
• 7:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
• 7:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, I want, thank you for asking.
• 7:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, I want to really emphasize, for those listening, you know, there's nothing to be embarrassed if this is you.
• 7:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why I'm talking about it because I was really embarrassed.
• 7:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I wouldn't tell people, I've been married four times.
• 8:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't do it.
• 8:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And now I'm like, whatever.
• 8:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is my story, but yes, the first husband I met at a disco, and I really married him on the rebound from that first boyfriend I was talking about I was probably not in love, but I am grateful because I had my daughter, but I became a single mother.
• 8:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: He actually left me and moved back east, you know, as I look back.
• 8:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's fine because I.
• 8:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just fine.
• 8:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like it wasn't really like this, oh my god, love, you know, in love relationship.
• 8:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was just like he's the dad and I'm the mom and it was hard being a single mother but I wouldn't change anything.
• 8:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: So he he laughed after four years and then a couple years later I met this and this again is like the romance that, you know, being in love with the illusion I met this really gorgeous guy from New York, really edgy, you know, how over you?
• 8:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: At that point, I was 31.
• 8:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I got married the first time at 22, which was way too good.
• 8:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like me, and I had a baby at 25.
• 8:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I met this guy from New York.
• 9:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Can he was just hot and I just was like smitten and it was total like to me love it for sight, which really doesn't exist.
• 9:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: But in my love addicted brain, it did exist and literally we were engaged after six weeks.
• 9:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, what?
• 9:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Six weeks, wow.
• 9:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Six weeks.
• 9:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're very enamored.
• 9:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: I never used my brain guys.
• 9:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was using other parts of my body.
• 9:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, I believe you're growing worse.
• 9:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: You smell good and you look good on yours.
• 9:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, that didn't work out.
• 9:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: We were, we got married and then we were together literally 10 months.
• 9:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: The third one was really painful.
• 9:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was abused.
• 9:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: He was a horrible person, and I was now 36.
• 9:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: One another child feeling the pressure.
• 9:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was kind of in love with, I was in love with his package.
• 9:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: So to speak, not that package, but his whole, his whole, like, you know, come to my really good family, you know, but really he was completely associate path.
• 9:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I would call him a narcissist.
• 9:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I would say that he was extremely verbally abusive.
• 9:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And
• 9:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't say physically, but definitely just a very painful relationship.
• 10:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I literally was married to him for four months.
• 10:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, wow.
• 10:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: We got a wedding plan of 300 people that his parents were making, because my parents were kind of done making me weddings at this point.
• 10:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm ready to go down the aisle and there's this big beautiful, I guess you'd say like a drape, like a kind of drape that opens up.
• 10:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there I am, this beautiful bride.
• 10:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the pedestal of flowers drops on the back of my dress and I'm like, oh, that is definitely a side.
• 10:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's what flowering is right.
• 10:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: right a board get out now and especially in a front like sitting there on the altar looking at the canter going got to see hot, you know, and I'm so you're hearing this.
• 10:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Truly just on my brain was not working.
• 10:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Just not working.
• 10:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just was all about cooking, you know, not hooking up being partnered up.
• 10:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: That was what it was about and it was a terrible choice.
• 10:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, I take responsibility and I own all my choices, their reasons, you know, I didn't have certain early needs met and and this is just how it landed.
• 11:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: So he was my third and then the fourth one and another gorgeous guy from New York was an alcoholic really good choice.
• 11:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: But he was in recovery.
• 11:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I thought, oh, well, he'll never drink again.
• 11:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: He said recovery.
• 11:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've no idea that alcoholism is a one day to time program, at least I didn't know that then.
• 11:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: We had a good seven years and I always say it was a great relationship for seven years until we started relapsing and then it just went downhill and but that's really when I kind of woke up you know that's why I created this program I have call wake up recovery for co-dependence and you guys will probably put it in your show notes or somewhere but yeah.
• 11:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's a tribe of people that are just waking up to the truth of who they are and you know it's hard to do that when you're obsessed with other people when you're you just need to be with someone no matter what when you feel lost and empty and you feel like you're in the ethers without a relationship and so it really is a waking up process.
• 11:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sherry, if I'm doing my math right, you said you divorce the fourth man in your 50s, then you were married for seven years.
• 12:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there was kind of a gap between your third and fourth husband, a few years, 36 to 42.
• 12:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay.
• 12:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: So in those years, I mean, that's that's six years, right?
• 12:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 12:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Were there any signs of thinking about the last three marriages or were you just
• 12:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's a great question.
• 12:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think part of the issue and I'm not going to blame it completely, but I went back to graduate school at 35 and I was a single mom and I was driving two hours to USC and back and I was trying to work and intern and I think those five years that I was in graduate school.
• 12:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was hardly present.
• 12:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was hardly present anyway, but I was so much trying to achieve this goal and it just took over my life and then when I met Scott, you know, I was sort of ready to be with someone, but again, it was just for all the, you know, he looked good, smell good, and that was that was that and I just hadn't, I didn't do the work, you know, the real trauma work.
• 13:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's ask, it doesn't sound like during that break, you were just focused on other things, it wasn't like a conscious thing.
• 13:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, well, like I was reading the book, I was like, there's some signs that I'm like, am I a relationship at it?
• 13:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: What is the line between like being obsessively compulsive about an obsession with relationships versus like, you know, just the standard anxieties that kind of come with dating and relationships?
• 13:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: So in healthy relationships, when couples first meet the idealize each other, and they're forming a really healthy attachment.
• 13:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: But as love matures, it becomes less intense, a little more secure, trust develops alongside the love, but people with relationship, you know, addiction never get past that initial stage of falling in love.
• 13:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: they idealize the person they're in love with but never feel secure enough to trust them and then they become dependent on the person they love in an unrealistic way hoping somewhat this person will create a kind of happily ever after for them so it's unrealistic to expect to expect anyone else to create a satisfying life for you so inevitably you're going to be disappointed because you're kind of in love with the idea of love you're sort of in love with the illusion instead of the real person
• 14:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: And ultimately, they're never satisfying and can't seem to live without them, which is the other problem, but they're not based on healthy bonds.
• 14:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're on a psychological bondage, which is the relationship addiction or the codependency.
• 14:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I want to go back to Julie's question because I think in my experience with addicts, they never recognize themselves in these symptoms.
• 14:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right, that's not me.
• 14:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: I just, you know, I just like being in relationships.
• 14:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a serial monogamous.
• 14:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: What are some common phrases that someone would say to themselves if they are someone addicted to relationships?
• 14:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know about phrases.
• 14:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it would just be there always on the search.
• 14:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're always on the next dating app.
• 14:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, one is over or not even over and they're on to the next one, you know, they're just it's more of a behavior of just the search and the panic sets in that they have to have somebody.
• 15:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: of a panic that's characterized you know when you first made someone you fall in love instantly you think of them constantly or immediately fantasizing about a future together these are some signs that you're getting a little obsessive you overwhelm partners with attention and you feel it's your responsibility of fixture partner and make them perfect because again you're falling in love with an illusion
• 15:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you had to let go of that illusion, then you'd have to let go of the goodie.
• 15:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: You try to put a square peg into a round hole because you wanted to work.
• 15:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're not your authentic self.
• 15:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you're always trying to change yourself to suit them, to fit in.
• 15:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's really hard for the digital dating landscape because it kind of sets you up for addiction.
• 15:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's already an addictive app.
• 15:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: People that make those apps are already gamifying it, so that it is addictive.
• 15:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then all of a sudden, it becomes even a greater addiction
• 15:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: do they like me?
• 15:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Are they going to swipe on me?
• 16:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Are they going to pick me?
• 16:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or, you know, then they go shoot.
• 16:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you have a really weak self-esteem issue and you don't have a lot of confidence, and someone's ghosting you, which, you know, I think is awful, but it's just the way it is today, or there's somebody better, bigger, prettier, longer legs, whatever, bigger boots, whatever it is, then, you know, you're left going, uh,
• 16:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it doesn't feel very good.
• 16:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're someone that has to, you know, really needs to work on yourself, really needs to feel whole within yourself.
• 16:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Kind of like what I did, finally in my early 50s, I just kind of stopped dating.
• 16:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I took up Outrigger canoeing.
• 16:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I joined a 12 step program for families of alcoholics.
• 16:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: I made some wonderful girlfriends, you know, then it morphed into becoming a grandmother and that becoming my real love.
• 16:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm in love with my grandma, my granddaughter.
• 16:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, you know, and I know a little older probably than your audience and but again it's to take the shame away that you know it's never too late because I hear women in their 40s and 30s is just think they're so old and you know what's wrong with me and I can't get this right well hey you know I'm pretty happy Joyce and free and I'm a lot older so never too late.
• 17:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: So first of all, our audience is very varied.
• 17:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, we do have the younger daters.
• 17:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: This might be like their first relationships they're entering, but we do also have a lot of people that have had relationships and have been divorced and kind of could identify with some of this of being defined by a relationship.
• 17:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think like the part and at least this is what I'm gathering and let me know if this is correct like there's probably like a spectrum of addictions like there's some parts that I definitely identify that I tend to fantasize a lot at the beginning and like and definitely
• 17:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: Don't fall in love with every last person but when I do like I fall hard even before I fully know them but I'm also on the flip side fully okay being by myself like I don't need to be in a relationship but it's more like when the right person comes around I get a glimpse of it and then I start to like imagine a life.
• 18:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I guess like from your perspective I would tell you romance.
• 18:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe you're in a romance.
• 18:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh I can kind of see that.
• 18:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: because you know, you're not hooked into the actually like having to have a relationship, you're perfectly happy alone.
• 18:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: But then once you have someone in your life that you're really excited about, then it becomes a whole story.
• 18:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then you know, you got the Prince charming thing going on or whatever your charming is.
• 18:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: And
• 18:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know, suddenly you are, you know, got your wedding dress planned out and how many kids you're going to have and where you're going to live and, you know, you're already moved in.
• 18:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's more of a romance addiction.
• 18:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's a good distinction, distinguishment because I think that people fall into that camp a lot.
• 18:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like we hear people imagining their whole life before they've even gone on their first date with some people.
• 18:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: So thank you for-
• 18:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe it's a crossover to love addiction, too.
• 18:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like you just love being in love.
• 18:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it sounds like you're okay not being in love.
• 18:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe, you know, I think, yeah, I'd say that's a romance addiction.
• 19:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I remember when I was young, I would like make up soap opera stories in my head.
• 19:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, there are soap operas.
• 19:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I would just like make these stories up, you know, there was a little drama going on in my house.
• 19:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I had great parents.
• 19:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: But they did fight a lot.
• 19:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: We had a lot of money problems.
• 19:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so to escape for me, I would go into fantasy.
• 19:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I would make up these stories.
• 19:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's really where it's surfaced as an escape, a way to distract.
• 19:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's okay if I wanted to distract from noise, but it's not okay when you start living your life like that.
• 19:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then that's why we talk about alcoholics who distract with alcohol.
• 19:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes that's the only thing that can save them in the beginning.
• 19:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, because it's just so awful, they're the chaos, it's around them.
• 19:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: We all, you know, some people become bookworms.
• 19:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: They get addicted to reading.
• 19:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: We find our distractions, people get addicted to porn.
• 19:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know, they get exposed to porn to early in a life or a parent is in to porn and then all of a sudden now they're addicted to to porn.
• 20:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Lev addiction can often go with sex addiction for sure, but it really is on its own its own addiction.
• 20:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like it doesn't have to have both.
• 20:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: The dangers of a relationship addiction, what it sounds like to me, is that you're constantly jumping into other people's lives.
• 20:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: That the moment you're alone, you
• 20:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: panic because you don't have a well thought out identity and you don't have your own life.
• 20:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: So therefore, maybe the loneliness is more amplified.
• 20:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a, that's such a great way of really looking at it because you are your lost.
• 20:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, when I divorced the alcoholic, those absolutely lost, you know, we were very co-dependent on each other.
• 20:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: We reach others whole life, which was really unhealthy and on your right, that person is your whole identity.
• 20:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like the person who's a workaholic, I was sitting in their jobs taken away their identity and then a
• 20:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like now who am I, who am I in the world without you?
• 20:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's learning to embrace the who am I without the relationship.
• 20:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I was in a relationship, we were together year and a half.
• 21:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it was a really a great relationship until it wasn't.
• 21:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: But this was the first time in my life I could walk away.
• 21:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm old.
• 21:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I could walk away and be alone because I knew that some red flags were showing up.
• 21:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't a bad relationship.
• 21:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just something showed up.
• 21:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I was able to walk away.
• 21:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's been the bet.
• 21:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it really felt good.
• 21:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: That there was no fear.
• 21:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was like, okay, I'm alive.
• 21:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I have a life.
• 21:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have to be with somebody.
• 21:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, I didn't jump on any apps, you know, I didn't try to, you know, we play some right away.
• 21:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now I'm dating a little bit, but it's very slow and steady.
• 21:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's no urgency to it.
• 21:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's no tear to it.
• 21:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just have a very different attitude about it.
• 21:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not like a void you have to fill.
• 21:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like a
• 21:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 21:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's no void.
• 21:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, literally there's absolutely no void.
• 21:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I have the most wonderful whole life.
• 21:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Anybody could ask for.
• 21:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have my daughter, my granddaughter, my career, my work, my friends.
• 21:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, what it really is, guys, it's a wanting connection.
• 22:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: We all want connection.
• 22:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: the connection.
• 22:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why I created that wake up recovery program because I want people to feel like they're not alone.
• 22:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: You have a tribe of people that have your back.
• 22:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we've got you and I'm offering a dollar for people to check it out.
• 22:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's a great deal.
• 22:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think another really important distinction is also to look at yourselves when you're not in relationships.
• 22:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think sometimes we're in relationships.
• 22:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have blinders on and then we don't see some of the behaviors that we do all the time But it's in between relationships.
• 22:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Are you feeling panic?
• 22:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Are you feeling you need to fill the void?
• 22:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Are you feeling lost?
• 22:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like those are all
• 22:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: really important symptoms, I guess you could call them.
• 22:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: Or absolutely different person.
• 22:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like I think if you're like I know some people that are just totally different when they're in relationships versus single and I think that is a big piece.
• 22:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love that you both said.
• 22:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: that because that's so true.
• 22:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, my daughter literally, I would after the relapses with my ex-husband, we hadn't quite divorced and separated, but he would leave and then we'd go back and leave.
• 23:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: There was this little drama going on for a minute during those relapses and people that have loved an alcoholic know what I'm talking about.
• 23:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: But my daughter would get on the phone with me and she'd say, oh, you're talking to Scott, aren't you?
• 23:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: She would just hear it in my voice.
• 23:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Just like if you were talking to an alcoholic that was drunk like, oh, you're drinking again.
• 23:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was just awful.
• 23:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: It there's so much freedom when you finally do the work.
• 23:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: And trauma is what I say people need to work on, whether it's with an EMDR specialist.
• 23:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: I do somatic work, which is releasing the energy in your body, working through the fight, flight response.
• 23:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's many modalities out there.
• 23:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do the work, go to sex and love addict and anonymous meetings.
• 23:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: But if you have some early trauma,
• 23:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: You really need to work on it and it's not a quick fix.
• 23:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's no quick fix around it, but when you learn to get comfortable in your skin and are grounded in your reality and your body, just nothing like it.
• 23:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: You just don't need to run anymore.
• 24:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Just for clarification, does relationship addiction stem from trauma always?
• 24:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: I believe so.
• 24:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: I believe it absolutely.
• 24:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because any addiction, you're looking to fail something that doesn't feel complete.
• 24:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a
• 24:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: complete.
• 24:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a mother wound.
• 24:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a early fracture.
• 24:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a, you know, you didn't get some kind of a tune and maybe your parents were abusive, maybe they neglected you.
• 24:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you came from a divorce and you became an adult,
• 24:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't really see you validate you acknowledge you, but then you don't know who you really are and then you become sort of invisible.
• 24:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's really who you are in the dating and love addiction world, a relationship because you're like invisible.
• 24:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the only way you don't feel invisible is if you are connecting to someone or partnering up to someone.
• 24:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, how the connections one thing, but, you know, being in the ethers and the only way you feel like you belong to the universe is when you're with someone that's, that's a big problem.
• 24:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: So how did you overcome it now that we're talking about like managing that like trauma, like what was your steps to being happy on your own?
• 25:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have found this wonderful therapist and it really changed my life.
• 25:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's the main thing, what else did I do?
• 25:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I took up the Outrigger canoeing, made a decision to change, finally.
• 25:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just, the pain was too great.
• 25:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I learned to stop looking for external solutions to my problems.
• 25:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I really looked at that terror, those fears I had about being alone, like I really broke them down and really like, what am I afraid of?
• 25:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I really worked on my trauma issue.
• 25:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: I started loving my inner child, you know, doing my own self parenting.
• 25:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I often say to my clients, you're adult self can start loving that inner child.
• 25:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're no longer that inner child.
• 25:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was abused or visible.
• 25:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: You can now and your adult self love that little child.
• 25:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: So what does that look like?
• 25:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's literally, you could start by taking a picture of yourself as a child and putting it in your phone or sticking it by your bed and just like loving that little girl that maybe didn't get what you needed and now you know addressing it as an adult self that's really literally what it is you know knowing that you're safe now.
• 26:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: And nothing's going to happen to you and you can take care of yourself and you're going to make decisions that are conscious and not unconscious and you're going to love yourself and you're going to forgive yourself for the things that you've done I had to do a lot of forgiveness work and just learn to kind of let go.
• 26:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think also just being able to identify that there is something that's a relationship addiction.
• 26:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like before this call, I didn't really even think about it that way.
• 26:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like I thought about like sex addiction, but I didn't think about like relationship addiction.
• 26:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, UA, if you've ever heard that through a lot of stuff about it.
• 26:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've only heard people
• 26:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: say they're self-proclaimed serial monogamous.
• 26:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: But that's almost in a satirical way that it's like, I'm a serial monogamous.
• 26:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: I go from relationship to relationship, but if that behavior is what's hindering you from finding real love or that's hurting you in some way, that's when it becomes kind of a dangerous addiction in my eyes.
• 27:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think you're right.
• 27:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's the more modern way of
• 27:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, everybody's afraid of the word addiction.
• 27:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: People need that.
• 27:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: I was gonna say there's something about zero monogamous that sounds like upbeat and like, you know, it's whimsical, right?
• 27:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't, but I think like what you've said at this episode that we've been talking about, it's when it gets to your self worth.
• 27:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's when there, and you don't know who you are anymore, if you don't have a relationship and a relationship is a crutch.
• 27:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think those are like very different than wanting.
• 27:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like needing a needing relationship versus wanting a relationship.
• 27:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me tell you, I take this really seriously.
• 27:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: I got very sick from being obsessed with my X. I mean, I got shingles, I got a staff infection, I started losing hair, I got kidney stones.
• 27:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, people really get sick when they are just, it can be fatal, like really seriously, fatal attraction is real.
• 27:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I take it very seriously.
• 27:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: I also take it seriously.
• 27:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if any of you've seen the the new show time It's called love fraud, and it's this guy's a con man.
• 28:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like the deer John.
• 28:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: There was another Show called deer John.
• 28:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: I suggest everybody watch it
• 28:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Google it, but the one that's going on right now is called Love Fraud.
• 28:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: And what this is about is that love addicts tend to be, you know, attract predators.
• 28:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: You attract the con man.
• 28:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: You attract, and it could be your for men out there listening.
• 28:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: You attract the con woman or for gay relationships.
• 28:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: You attract the woman or whatever.
• 28:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to attract what you know.
• 28:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're really not feeling good about yourself and you're really vulnerable and you're really lost and you're in the ethers of the unknown and you're
• 28:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: fear-based, you are going to be set up for a con man.
• 28:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to go too much into it.
• 28:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: But my mother after my dad died, she had a beautiful 60 year marriage.
• 28:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: My dad died.
• 28:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: She was grieving, yes, but because she had never done her work, my dad pretty much rescued her so to speak.
• 28:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: He died and she was lost and she met a con man.
• 28:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And long story short, I had to go to court for almost two years dealing with this horrible person that came into our family.
• 29:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Part of the reason why I'm really going out, I'm going loud about this.
• 29:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: He was a narcissist.
• 29:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: She was being abused.
• 29:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: This was elder abuse, but you can be any age and have somebody come into your life and just completely take all your money and take advantage of you because you're so vulnerable.
• 29:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's like the dark side.
• 29:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's focus on this for a sec, because I think you bring up a really good point is that when you have this addiction, you seem to attract a certain type of person who in your eyes may be really good while you're in a relationship with them, because again, you have your blinders on.
• 29:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: So let's take us that back from this, the con artist, and maybe not so much to the con artist, level, but what are some other characteristics of this person that that an addict could attract?
• 29:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, you're talking about the love avoidant.
• 29:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to pick someone that's probably unavailable.
• 29:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: But probably starts out really charming, really addictive, really wants to be with you.
• 29:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so you the love addict love that attention.
• 30:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: You love that high, that feeling.
• 30:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, he wants me.
• 30:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: He wants me.
• 30:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: So they're gonna come off really strong and you're gonna think, oh my God, this is the one.
• 30:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, they're gonna slowly but surely back off because all of a sudden, now they've sort of conquered you.
• 30:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, narcissists, I mean, what can I say?
• 30:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: They have no empathy.
• 30:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're always right.
• 30:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't look at your point of view.
• 30:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't care what you have to say.
• 30:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: They usually have to fill their narcissistic supply.
• 30:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: So what can you do for them?
• 30:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: In my mother's case, it was like, you can support me and take care of me because I'm a loser guy and I don't have anything so it's they want to feel that narciss supply, whether maybe they need a lot of attention, maybe they need it's usually they pick people that are going to make them look good.
• 30:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So why do addicts or narcissists?
• 30:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of addicts have narcissistic traits.
• 30:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think for my attic, alcoholic ex-husband, I think he was had the traits.
• 30:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think he was full blown, but he loved that I was an author and I'd been on TV and he'd go around telling everybody.
• 31:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it was all about, like, don't you see me?
• 31:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, who cares about my books?
• 31:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Who cares about all of this stuff?
• 31:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: What about me?
• 31:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a really sure sign.
• 31:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're with someone that might have the traits.
• 31:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't like to overuse the word, but there are narcissists out there.
• 31:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's love of lawyers, and you know, they're the ones, too, that can be going from relationship to relationship.
• 31:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: They can be a, they can be in a void or at the lab attic.
• 31:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's often that dance that that goes on, you know?
• 31:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like that a void or the love of a void or that chapter definitely residated with me, because I think that I've definitely had some of those in my past.
• 31:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think sometimes it's not coming from a narcissistic sense.
• 31:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's more coming from
• 31:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: They're not physically able to be in a relationship.
• 31:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like maybe they don't have their career in order enough.
• 31:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like they can't support someone or like something isn't there for them.
• 31:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: But they still want it to some degree.
• 31:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: But then when it becomes real, they start to like run away from it.
• 31:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, then I'd have to ask the person who meets the voider that wants them.
• 32:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Why would you want someone that doesn't have a complete life?
• 32:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, why would you want to be with someone who has a shitty job?
• 32:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or, I mean, because I've been there done that, it's not fun.
• 32:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying, you know, they're losers.
• 32:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying, get your life together, dude.
• 32:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then give me a call.
• 32:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm not trying to be cold, but, you know, I don't usually think it's because of the job or that.
• 32:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think law often it's an intimacy issue.
• 32:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's their own trauma that they just they get scared to death of connection like as soon as they start to have feelings soon as it gets to you know to close or like and then they run they're basically love of lawyers and love addicts come from the same the same coin just two different sides they both usually have a band of an issues they're just they manifest it differently the love lawyer runs away the
• 32:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think to answer your question of why, and I think this goes to what you were saying earlier about the fantasy, is like you think you can change them, or like you fall in love with the potential, like that's a big thing.
• 32:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, give that up, everybody, not change anyone, you can't fix anybody, you can't.
• 33:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, you start doing that, you become very co-dependent, and you'll always be unhappy and resentful because, you know, expectations are, there's a saying, I'm probably not saying it
• 33:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: on their way.
• 33:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: So true.
• 33:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: I can name one.
• 33:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, I think I can name two of my friends who are relationship addicts and this is what they would always say to me, if he could see that I'm so good for him, then he's going to have the best life ever.
• 33:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: if he could listen to me because I'm giving him the best advice then he will be very successful his job and I'm like no no no he does not need you to be successful but you for some reason they've created this need for themselves in our
• 33:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: in that.
• 33:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 33:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, there's two things going on.
• 33:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I have a whole chapter in Love's Mac about that, which is called settling for less.
• 33:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what they're doing.
• 33:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're settling for less, and they think they can control and manipulate somebody.
• 34:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, often people that do that don't want to look at themselves.
• 34:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, am I busy trying to change you?
• 34:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I look at your stuff and then I don't have to like, that's a great distraction.
• 34:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I think this is why people don't see this as a serious issue because it seems like the media really plays it up to it's like You know, they celebrate the person who is a relationship addict.
• 34:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, or society tells you you need to be in a relationship So you feel like you need to be on to the next one one and so
• 34:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, one day I've got to make a list of like songs that I haven't done that, but any love song.
• 34:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're all co-dependent love addicts.
• 34:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, absolutely.
• 34:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
• 34:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I really need to work on that.
• 34:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I'll Google Love Addiction Songs.
• 34:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, are you think of that old movie fatal attraction with my Google list and Glenn Close?
• 34:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: That was total addiction.
• 35:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, I think you're right about the media.
• 35:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think
• 35:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I was looking at my granddaughter's frozen.
• 35:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I don't know if there's a print involved, but they're all princesses.
• 35:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Everything's princess.
• 35:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then she has the Barbie dream house.
• 35:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And everything is fantasy.
• 35:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, I love fantasy, but not to the extent that it takes over of what you think that's what life is about.
• 35:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, Prince Charming is gonna sweep me off my feet.
• 35:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I can't wait for the day when Disney comes out with a movie where people have to pay rent.
• 35:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm just waiting for the princess to try to make fun of you.
• 35:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you didn't let that.
• 35:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the least Barbies are coming in different sizes and come up.
• 35:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm really happy in this head.
• 35:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
• 35:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
• 35:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I also like to see more not just heterosexual stuff.
• 35:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think kids can start understanding who they are at a younger age.
• 35:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: And all of it's important because otherwise, you're kind of trying, like you said, Julie, you're trying to meet a cultural norm.
• 35:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And this is the way it's supposed to look.
• 36:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: So what does that line then?
• 36:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: Because, you know, no one's gonna deny that connection and relationships are a big piece of human life, right?
• 36:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: And the, like, finding love is one of the greatest things, but we also don't want to be so reliant on love and relationships that you lose yourself completely.
• 36:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, what is the line of having a healthy relationship versus being a relationship addict?
• 36:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think relationship addiction, you know, I think health relationships have ups and downs.
• 36:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they just do.
• 36:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that if you keep going from one relationship to another or you have, let's say you look at five relationships and only, and one of them was an unhappy one.
• 36:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're, you're not like the a relationship or marriage addict.
• 36:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: But if all five relationships,
• 36:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: work so great and you're going from one to the next, then you might want to look at that seriously.
• 36:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if you're unhappy in every relationship and you feel even worse on your own, you're definitely a relationship addict.
• 36:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
• 36:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just curious because I love celebrity gossip and Julie won't care.
• 37:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: She doesn't care about celebrities, but she really worked with plenty of celebrities on their addictions.
• 37:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I always want to think like celebrities, they're just like us, but are there actual differences between their addictions
• 37:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: The only difference I would say, no, they're no different, and I worked with a lot of love addicts.
• 37:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: I worked with Rachel Eucatel.
• 37:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I worked with Amber Smith.
• 37:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: She was like the first supermodel.
• 37:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: I worked with Janice Dickinson.
• 37:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: She was a supermodel.
• 37:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: They are no different.
• 37:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: The only difference when it comes to addiction like drugs.
• 37:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: In my opinion, there's a lot of yes people, so they bring them their drugs, they bring them their alcohol, they'll do whatever, so they'll keep
• 37:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: addiction and less, you know, it's just keep, well, that's not true.
• 37:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Look at, I'm thinking of who's the famous golfer, tell your wood.
• 37:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Tiger Woods had all those relationships.
• 37:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I would call him a sex addict.
• 37:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think his yes people brought women to him most likely.
• 38:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think I heard that.
• 38:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, or look at Harvey Weinstein, you know, people hid women for him.
• 38:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's more maybe sex addiction, I think.
• 38:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: But even like for us, I guess, quote unquote normal people, our relationship addiction stems from this idea of not abundance.
• 38:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think we think, oh, what, you know, when I'm when I'm single, am I going to find this next person like there's just not enough, it's to the numbers aren't in my favor, but I think for celebrities.
• 38:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: they're always in this area of abundance.
• 38:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Plenty of people would want to get in relationships with them.
• 38:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's interesting that they also have an addiction.
• 38:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the trauma is probably the thing that I think you have a fantasy of how you think they live.
• 38:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because they all get up and go the bathroom the same day, the same way we do.
• 38:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, and they are no different, and in fact, they have more to worry about because they have more money, more goodies, more fame, and they're going to have to really think about who they're attracting, gosh, who was at Martha Stewart.
• 39:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I remember she was on TV talking about joining Match.com, and I think she was serious.
• 39:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: So here's a woman who's a zillionaire, and she's on there too, looking for love.
• 39:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't think it's that easy just because you're a celebrity, I think that's a fantasy.
• 39:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Julie's like rolling her eyes just like, okay.
• 39:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: No, no, I have all these celebrities.
• 39:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: I actually thought it was an interesting question, because I mean at the end of the day, the end of the day, if you have Unresolved trauma, it doesn't matter if you're celebrity doesn't matter if you're a millionaire.
• 39:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like you still have the same shit to work through Unfortunately, you can't pay for that just to magically like poof and go away
• 39:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I hope I didn't make you feel bad by saying, oh, they're, you know, I'm not trying.
• 39:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think it's fine.
• 39:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you love celebrities.
• 39:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's part of the youth culture.
• 39:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how old you are, but I think it's part of the celebrity narcissism.
• 39:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I want to be famous.
• 39:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so we think famous people just have it so good and so wonderful.
• 40:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, my daughter is a very, very, very big publicist in Hollywood.
• 40:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to mention her client list, but she's got very famous people.
• 40:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think we're just enamored with again, it's the outside stuff and then I think reality TV kind of, you know, influence that a little bit like, oh, I can be on TV or oh, how about it, I'll become like an influencer watch me on.
• 40:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're just addicted to all of that stuff because it's an outside thing and it really comes from within.
• 40:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I did celebrity rehab and I was like a little celebrity for about a minute.
• 40:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I did a lot of TV interviews.
• 40:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was going to CNN and bio channel and E News.
• 40:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: These are in the days when everything wasn't politics.
• 40:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then it ended.
• 40:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I wasn't doing so much of that, you know, and then it's like, who am I now?
• 40:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God.
• 40:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: If he likes me, nobody's calling me for interviews.
• 40:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I had nothing to do with me.
• 40:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's got to be really careful.
• 40:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you're our data will now.
• 40:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there you go.
• 41:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can, you know what, you can't just, and you're listed on a very high ranking, I or something, I don't know, I'm very, very impressed that you have this, this, obviously you're really good at what you do and you know your stuff and hope, you know, hopefully mostly healthy so that you can, you know, talk about healthy issues and a healthy way.
• 41:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's our goal with this podcast and I think this is a great way to talk about takeaways, you know, that's like our trademark is on dateable.
• 41:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: We want to take away from all this great information that you just gave us.
• 41:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I can kick that off.
• 41:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think the number one takeaway is addiction is unhealthy no matter what you're addicted to.
• 41:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think I could say I'm addicted to happiness and that's also an unhealthy addiction.
• 41:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: And being addicted to relationships has so many dangers to your own self-worth and your identity.
• 41:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I think first and foremost, it's just unresolved upbringing trauma and issues from the past that we tend to cover up with relationships.
• 42:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, I think, again, my biggest takeaway is one acknowledging that you have an addiction and two sitting with that pain.
• 42:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: I have a few friends who are addicted to quite diverse range of things.
• 42:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 42:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: But they always say that there's that pain that they want to go away.
• 42:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: That they don't sit with it.
• 42:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: They want it to go away.
• 42:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think.
• 42:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: it's really important to to sit with it.
• 42:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the other takeaway I have is a lot of times we think about relationships as this cardboard paper cut out.
• 42:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it could anybody could sit in there and fulfill this role of a boyfriend or a girlfriend or a partner.
• 42:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: But we don't when we actually enter into relationships.
• 42:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: We are having them conform into what our idea of that partner should be.
• 42:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, absolutely.
• 42:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I am guilty of doing that, too, because we fantasize, you know, in my during my single days, I fantasize about one of my future of boyfriend will be like, but nobody's going to be that cardboard.
• 43:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
• 43:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's just nobody's going to be that exact person.
• 43:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: So nobody is perfect, but you just want to be clear.
• 43:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's why when you do the work, the trauma work, your body will tell you when something's not right.
• 43:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, when I, when I broke up with this, this last person, I started getting anxiety because I knew something wasn't right.
• 43:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you just got to listen what your brain forgets your body doesn't.
• 43:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that is exactly what my third takeaway is.
• 43:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is feeling your body, I think, sometimes we forget that I don't know if you have a migraine for days, it's not just you dehydrated.
• 43:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: It could come from other trauma and, you know, yoga teachers always say you hold a lot of emotional stress in your hips.
• 43:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, if your hips are tight, there's something going on in your body.
• 43:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, we need to listen to our bodies in addition to our heart and mind.
• 43:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 43:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: Some of my takeaways definitely just becoming aware that this is another form of an addiction.
• 43:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I think, like I mentioned before when I read this book, Little Things did pop up for me.
• 44:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: While I might not be like a full-blown relationship addict, while there's nothing wrong with that, maybe there's areas that I can take now.
• 44:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: and look at like how this is showing up and am I putting too much of a fantasy on to someone or am I getting ahead of myself in different areas and I think like the ultimate piece too is like not being not being afraid to be alone like I think we have to drown out society like we have to like take a step back and just make sure that we're at the end of the day like we're happy whatever that means.
• 44:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think so much of us believe that a relationship will make us suddenly happy and that's why we're relationship addicts.
• 44:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: We're trying to fill a void.
• 44:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: We're trying to jump to the next.
• 44:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I know personally, like all the times where I've attracted, like actual healthy, happy partnerships was when I was in a good place myself.
• 44:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course.
• 44:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think if you are feeling like, oh, like you said Sherry like there's a pattern here like all the partners I'm I'm dealing with like I'm miserable in these relationships yet.
• 45:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: I still want to stay Because being in a relationship is better than not being in a relationship I think it's time to take that pause and feel like it's okay to be alone for a little like you're
• 45:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of people are free to stop dating and being in relationships because there's like a time crunch that's happening in this, yeah, we can't, we gotta keep moving, we can't stop.
• 45:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: But often times, like taking that pause actually is moving you way ahead because you're not just on a hamster wheel doing the same thing over and over again.
• 45:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
• 45:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Perfect takeaway.
• 45:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can't say it any better than the two of you.
• 45:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe both should become therapists.
• 45:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're really that, you're very intuitive.
• 45:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, really.
• 45:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for the endorsement.
• 45:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I do.
• 45:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's just a lot of intuition here, you know, and a lot of stuff that seems very healthy.
• 45:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think y'all still both learned a lot too.
• 45:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, absolutely.
• 45:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm with your audience.
• 45:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
• 45:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: And one last question for you since you are on the dateable podcast, what has been dateable mean to you being in a healthy place and ready to allow?
• 46:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: healthy left in your life.
• 46:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Boom.
• 46:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: And then forever for anyone that wants to read your book and also join the community that you mentioned.
• 46:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: Can you give us a little, you know, where to find it, how to get involved, all the details.
• 46:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 46:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the book is Love Smack.
• 46:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: How to stop the cycle of relationship addiction and co-dependency to find everlasting love.
• 46:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's on Amazon.
• 46:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it comes out September 22nd.
• 46:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the community, I think you're going to put in your show notes, the link.
• 46:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's wake up recovery for co-dependence.
• 46:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a constantly growing breathing membership.
• 46:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: So
• 46:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's going to be a lot more in there about love addiction.
• 46:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot in there right now about codependency.
• 46:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot about the law of attraction, you know, because part of attracting is using the law of attraction, you know, what you put out there into the universe and if you are feeling healthy and you feel good about yourself, you can have a better chance of attracting that back in.
• 47:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of a, a little bit of everything and it's just a great group of people.
• 47:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: So thank you for sharing that link with your audience.
• 47:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Of course.
• 47:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if you haven't done so yet, subscribe to the psychology of relationships today.
• 47:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you don't miss an episode.
• 47:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: Bye.