Latest / We Built This Brand / How Life’s Setbacks Built a Better Entrepreneur with Joshua Kopac

Transcript

How Life’s Setbacks Built a Better Entrepreneur with Joshua Kopac · We Built This Brand

0:06
And welcome back to We Built This Brand.
0:07
I'm your host, Chris Hill, and today with
0:09
me is Joshua Kak, the founder of Be Kept Up.
0:12
Joshua, thank you for joining me today.
0:14
Thanks for having me on Chris.
0:16
Yeah.
0:16
Awesome.
0:17
I'm excited to talk to you.
0:18
Um, you've got quite the interesting background in entrepreneurship
0:22
and, um, you know, that ultimately led you to where you're at today.
0:26
And, you know, as we built this brand, we like to talk to
0:28
people that aren't just marketers, aren't just, um, you
0:31
know, in that world, but are also entrepreneurs and founders.
0:33
And, um, I love talking about your journey to becoming,
0:37
you know, who you are today as well as the business itself.
0:40
So.
0:41
Would just love to start by diving in and, and
0:43
learning a little bit about your background.
0:45
When did you first become an entrepreneur?
0:48
So, I'd say in about 2006, 2007.
0:52
Um, so I, I owned various websites throughout the time.
0:55
Randomly the internet was up and coming.
0:57
I was super interested in what was going on, how
0:59
to keep up with it, uh, no pun intended there.
1:02
Um, and essentially, you know, I was approaching the age of getting a job.
1:08
And I was asking myself, all right, well what do I wanna do with myself?
1:12
And the answer was, I didn't wanna bag groceries.
1:15
So I was a member of a lot of get paid two websites.
1:18
So get paid two websites, essentially.
1:21
Uh, you can complete offers in exchange for points or cash.
1:24
Cash, cash out.
1:26
And that's how I funded my first business.
1:27
So I, I looked at one, there was, uh, you know, treasure
1:30
Trooper and Cash Crate and SWAT cash back in the day.
1:34
And I was a member of all three.
1:35
And I would generate money again, probably against their terms of service.
1:39
I was too young.
1:40
Um, but nonetheless, I got the checks in the mail and I, instead
1:44
of there doing it, it, why can't I, I knew nothing about.
1:47
Coding knew nothing about operating a website, knew nothing about
1:50
how to do it, but I said, if they're doing it, I'm gonna do it.
1:52
You know, that's, that's a long, long story.
1:56
Somewhat shortened, but it just came down to I didn't wanna bag,
1:59
bag groceries and I wanted to have a means and, and learn, and
2:03
it was the age of the internet and things were expanding rapidly.
2:07
Uh, you know, post a OL once we actually had some DSL or some broadband
2:11
internet and things were just shaking off really quickly, much like.
2:15
It seems it's happening today.
2:18
Yeah.
2:19
That's, that's fascinating.
2:20
So 2006, 2007.
2:23
Um, and you said the age of getting a job, so I, I
2:25
assume when you say that, you're not saying like after
2:28
college, you're saying starting your first job, right?
2:32
Yep.
2:32
I was, I was in high school.
2:33
I think I was 13 when I first started.
2:37
So, you know, it got to the point where I would take naps during high school
2:42
and come home and, and work through the night, and I just was figuring it out.
2:46
But it was a lot of fun.
2:48
Very different path.
2:49
It was hard to relate to a lot of people in different ways from.
2:53
What I was able to experience and what I was able to
2:55
do, but nonetheless, that, that led into a wide variety
2:59
of, you know, different pursuits and different things.
3:02
Yeah, I can imagine it would because, you know, getting
3:05
that experience, that young, being able to do those things.
3:08
I mean, I remember trying to start, you know,
3:11
doing web design when I was in high school and.
3:13
It was difficult, um, without having any guidance and really not a lot of
3:18
places, I mean, YouTube didn't exist when I was first trying to do this.
3:21
So like, figuring it out on your own was hard.
3:24
Um, and your high school teacher who could teach you
3:27
how to do H TM L couldn't teach you to do very much.
3:29
Um, so yeah, that stuff was difficult.
3:32
So the fact that you were able to do it at a young age is impressive.
3:36
Thanks.
3:36
And, you know, it, it, it sort of came to fruition in a strange way.
3:40
So, 14 days into high school, I was expelled.
3:44
Oh dang.
3:44
And I was expelled, you know, not for fighting
3:47
in the hallways or doing anything like that.
3:49
I was expelled for hacking the school.
3:53
Okay.
3:54
Uh, you know, it was a time where network security and
3:58
operational security was in a very different place, and it
4:00
was coming to fruition with the ever-changing technology.
4:04
Um, so I was expelled 14 days in for, for hacking the school.
4:07
And, you know, they put me in an, uh, the administrator's office.
4:12
I was truthful with them, yes, I did this
4:13
and here's how I did it, and yada, yada yada.
4:15
So I was expelled, I think, for three months, but that was sort of the catalyst
4:19
for me of, do I want to use this for good or do I wanna use this for bad?
4:25
And that was the turning point for me where I had to do a lot
4:27
of introspection and self journeying and understand, uh, I
4:32
could do that, but this isn't gonna go very well for anybody.
4:37
Yeah, I'm sure your parents weren't too pleased with that.
4:40
No, there's, uh, I'll, I'll withhold some comments
4:43
there, but I, I owe them a vacation or two.
4:48
I would imagine.
4:49
So I, yeah, I can, I can relate to that a little bit so I understand.
4:54
Um, but yeah, that's, that, that is crazy.
4:57
So you get, you get outta high school then when, well, I
5:00
guess when did your first business really, um, take off?
5:04
Like when did you get recognized for, um,
5:07
for all this hard work you were putting in?
5:08
I
5:09
think 2008, so 2008, that's when we were a little bit more public.
5:14
I think we did just over a million dollars revenue that year.
5:17
We didn't know what the hell we were doing.
5:19
We didn't, we didn't know about bookkeeping and accounting and
5:22
AR and AP and taxes and, uh, you know, all it was fun money for
5:27
us and one of the greatest lessons to have that happen at 14.
5:33
Sure.
5:33
I gave my dad a heart attack.
5:35
Figuratively, not really.
5:36
Um.
5:37
But you know, it was, it was one of those things where you just had to learn.
5:41
It was sort of like, alright, your back's against the
5:45
wall, here's everything that's going on, figure it out.
5:47
Um, but you know, to answer your question, 2008 was when we were more public.
5:52
You know, we were a group of 14 and 15 and
5:55
16 year olds having a booth at a trade show.
5:58
And, you know, we had a cigar roller in New York
6:00
City, for example, we handed out 4,000 cigars.
6:03
We couldn't even legally smoke them.
6:06
I was about to say, could you smoke those,
6:10
you know, weird, weird times in many ways, but in other ways it was,
6:13
it was freeing and it's allowed me to not take things too seriously.
6:19
Um, you know, from those lessons.
6:21
Yeah.
6:22
Yeah, that's, that is fascinating too.
6:24
'cause like that's, I can't imagine having
6:27
a cigar roller at my, my event under 18.
6:30
I was such a goody two shoe for the most part.
6:32
Um, that sounds, sounds awesome though.
6:36
Um, but that's, yeah.
6:37
So, so you, you get into that, you, you start growing this business
6:41
starts going, like, how long was it until you were like, I'm done.
6:45
I mean, did I assume you graduated high school
6:48
and got your, at least your high school diploma?
6:49
Correct.
6:50
I did, I,
6:52
I Grit my teeth.
6:53
I, I thank one of my teachers, my marketing
6:56
teacher for, you know, telling me to stick with it.
6:58
Like, you're already here, don't worry about it.
7:01
Just put in the extra few months and you do whatever you need.
7:04
So that was, you know, really, really grateful
7:06
for, for Mark for helping me with that.
7:08
But, um, college was an interesting discussion too.
7:11
I was the first of four to not go.
7:13
In my family, you know, my parents were not pleased.
7:16
That was the model that was, that still is the model, very much so in
7:21
in the United States, at least of you need to get higher education.
7:24
And my perspective was, no, I want experience.
7:27
I don't want to go a quarter million dollars in debt.
7:30
I want experience.
7:32
I already have relationships.
7:33
Let me leverage those and continue learning and doing.
7:37
Yeah, I think that's wise.
7:39
Um.
7:40
I mean, one of our biggest clients, um, for my business is
7:42
actually a, um, a company started by two founders that neither of
7:47
which have college degrees and they're excellent in their field.
7:51
They're well known, and they'll, they'll proudly tell you neither of them
7:54
have college degrees and they love to gimme crap about having an MBA.
7:57
So.
7:59
Yeah, I, I totally feel that
8:03
we, we all have our different paths though.
8:04
We go, we go back to school for different reasons.
8:06
I went back because, um, I went back for my master's in
8:09
part because I wanted to, I realized my first startup
8:12
didn't go well, and it was like, I need to learn more.
8:15
And so I went back.
8:16
But other people learned different ways and you clearly were at a
8:19
point where you didn't need it from the beginning, and that's awesome.
8:22
So.
8:23
So, where have you grown since then?
8:25
Since, uh, since high school, since doing all this?
8:27
It looks like you've, you've done quite a bit.
8:29
So tell me, tell me, kinda like, you don't have to go
8:32
through every up and down, but where have you ended up today?
8:36
Yeah, so kind of going through the navigation,
8:39
you know, that I'll, I'll start here.
8:41
It was really difficult having that experience in high school, of
8:44
going from having what felt like everything and shaping your identity.
8:48
So you're already shaping your identity as a teenager.
8:51
You know, uh, going through, just growing up and
8:55
I thought that was my identity was the business.
8:58
And to have it, the rug sort of pulled out from you and
9:02
have to reclaim your identity while you're already trying
9:04
to create an identity that was a, a really, uh, difficult.
9:09
Portion of life, per se, of, of trying to get back up.
9:12
So, you know, I stayed in the industry.
9:15
Um, I've done everything from monetizing, uh, you know, digital
9:19
traffic, to running FinTech blogs, to affiliate networks.
9:24
Uh, most recently I was at Protege where I helped 'em drive
9:27
about $75 million in sales for my personal book, saw a
9:31
acquisition to Great Hill Partners for over a billion dollars.
9:34
And that led into a very, once again, unique circumstance.
9:38
I was in an auto accident and, uh, sort of had to recover.
9:43
So I had a traumatic brain injury.
9:44
Um, I had slipped discs and herniated discs in
9:47
my neck, uh, among some other difficult things.
9:51
And that sort of forced me to slow down and say, well,
9:54
this isn't sustainable, this way of doing things.
9:57
You can do it, that's great, but if you're here for much longer,
10:01
you're either gonna cease to exist or you're gonna burn out.
10:03
And, you know, I felt that was God's way of telling me, uh, you know,
10:08
forcing a redirection per se, of you're not gonna listen elsewise.
10:12
Uh, so, you know, here's your circumstance.
10:14
Figure it out.
10:15
So that led into creating a founding Be kept up.
10:19
We're, um, founder and CEO.
10:20
Uh, we're a digital marketing agency at the
10:23
core, and, uh, we specialize in affiliate.
10:26
So affiliate meaning we're an arbitrage.
10:29
Between advertiser and publisher.
10:30
So let's say we have a publisher, which could be Forbes,
10:34
who's writing content, and they're writing content about
10:38
an advertiser of ours, let's just say a budgeting app.
10:41
Um, so we're basically working with the advertiser.
10:45
We collect a flat commission for every customer that signs
10:48
up for said product, and we pass on a portion of that
10:52
to the publisher who's actually doing the advertising.
10:56
Okay.
10:57
Interesting.
10:57
So you're, you're then, that, that's what you mean by affiliate then.
11:01
So how does that work on your end?
11:02
Because I, I'm not too familiar with affiliate marketing and
11:05
I, I'd kinda like to dig into that just a little bit, um,
11:08
for the business marketing nerdy side of the podcast here.
11:12
Um, so you said publisher, you said they get
11:15
commissioned, but what, what work are you doing?
11:17
Are you putting it out on websites and in apps and doing the display ads?
11:22
Like, how does that work for you?
11:24
So there's a, there's a couple things we do.
11:26
So one is we're securing the deal with the advertiser.
11:28
So what are you looking for?
11:30
What's your product?
11:31
What's your payment model?
11:33
Are you paying on a sale?
11:34
Are you paying on a subscription?
11:35
Are you paying on a free trial?
11:37
Um, so nailing those details down with the advertiser
11:39
first, and then finding the actual publisher source.
11:42
So I'm just leveraging, essentially 18 years in
11:45
the industry with a lot of these relationships.
11:48
But you know, for example, Forbes will go and write content.
11:51
We'll get it approved by the advertiser.
11:53
Make sure that you know, the talking points are
11:55
correct or the branding is correct, what have you.
11:57
Um, and we're playing the middleman there.
11:59
So we're leveraging relationships we have on both ends that the other doesn't.
12:04
So the advertiser doesn't know a Forbes or a CNN and the Forbes
12:10
and the CNN doesn't know his particular bank or budgeting app.
12:13
So we're just leveraging those relationships and connecting pipes essentially.
12:19
Nice.
12:19
Nice.
12:20
And when you founded this business, you said be kept up.
12:23
Like, you know, I always find that, you know, when you're
12:25
starting a new business, like, you know, the name is very
12:28
intrinsic to what you're trying to communicate with the brand.
12:32
So where did that come from and and why is it be kept up?
12:36
So I was big into, uh, Kundalini yoga, meditation, and actually
12:40
I'm a certified teacher, uh, from, from many years ago.
12:44
So that's something that I did.
12:46
Uh.
12:47
After politics, which is another story.
12:49
Um.
12:50
In order to just calm down and sort of get
12:53
out of that energy field and find my center.
12:56
Um, but there was a saying in that lineage of
12:59
yoga, which was keep up and you'll be kept up.
13:02
And this name to me was a reminder during my auto accident and
13:08
everything that I was and still am enduring from that of, to
13:12
keep up to, you know, hold myself, uh, to a certain standard,
13:16
hold my business to a certain standard and make sure that.
13:19
I'm keeping up.
13:20
So for me, it's a mantra, it's a reminder.
13:23
Uh, it's something that when I'm wearing the logo or see the logo, it sort of
13:27
just puts that mental projection for me of keep up, keep up, keep up, keep up.
13:32
Not unhealthily, uh, but just setting that standard and
13:36
having that standard for, for myself, for my family,
13:39
for the business, for clients, and what have you.
13:42
That's, that's really neat.
13:44
Um, so what is Kun, you said Kalinga yoga?
13:48
Is that, did I say that correctly?
13:50
I don't think I did.
13:52
Kundalini was the, the Kundalini, yeah, I definitely butchered that.
13:58
But tell me, tell me what, what exactly is that kind of yoga?
14:01
Yeah, so it's a complete system of yoga.
14:03
So it has everything from the poses or the CREs.
14:06
So the Cs are just the, the sets, um, Pran, which is breath.
14:11
Mantra, which can be, you know, chanting, uh, mudras finger positions.
14:16
Um, so it involved, you know, all of the other pieces of yoga per se.
14:22
And you could say it's, you know, the, the whole pizza pie.
14:24
There's no wrong way to do it.
14:25
It was just something that I felt called to, it was something that I felt, um,
14:29
that resonated with me and it helped me through a lot of life's transitions.
14:34
Yeah, I can imagine.
14:35
I mean, especially after the car accident and everything like that, I'm sure.
14:39
Just that physical activity.
14:40
I've had some physical injuries myself, and
14:42
I know how hard it can be to overcome that.
14:44
You know, I, I would imagine that that's probably very helpful for that too.
14:49
Stretching and all those things that yoga entails, especially core muscles.
14:53
You don't realize how important core muscles are until you lose a function.
14:59
Oh yeah.
15:00
That's neat.
15:01
Um.
15:03
So, yeah.
15:03
So then, um, you, you also mentioned, and, and I think this is
15:06
prob, I can imagine this is a big challenge, like coming from, um.
15:12
Co coming from like this early age into now, like you, you've
15:16
lived a lot of careers in the time that most people are just
15:19
getting outta college and just getting started with their career.
15:23
Um, and maybe even more than most people will ever experience to a degree.
15:27
Um, but you mentioned this l idea of losing your
15:30
identity, having to recreate or creating your identity.
15:33
Like how has.
15:35
I don't wanna leave it so vague as just to say how has that journey been?
15:38
But I'm just curious, like what have you
15:40
learned along the way of all those ins and outs?
15:44
Yeah, I think being adaptable is probably the largest one.
15:48
Things are gonna change on a dime.
15:50
You know, there's people getting married, there's people
15:52
getting divorced, there's people, uh, you know, having children.
15:55
Whatever it is, it's, we just have to adapt.
15:58
So I think that was the largest lesson and still is.
16:02
I've by no means mastered it.
16:03
I'm still human and still experiencing, know life's challenges per
16:08
se, but I'd say being adaptable and being moldable, especially in this
16:13
day and age of ai and how quickly everything's changing on a dime.
16:17
I don't think even myself included, we don't realize how quickly
16:21
everything is changing in the world and what that's going to mean.
16:25
You know, you look at the industrial revolution.
16:28
With how quickly everything changed, and that was years, you
16:31
know, if not decades, this is happening where, you know, we're
16:35
having LLMs large language models for AI literally on track and,
16:41
and knowing more than encyclopedias at a, at a moment's notice.
16:44
So it's, it's very interesting the way things are are going.
16:48
But I'd say it's even more important in this day and age
16:53
with the dawning of ai, with the age of AI to be adaptable.
16:57
To be moldable.
16:58
I, I can't even fathom that right now.
17:00
I dunno.
17:00
It's, it's really, it's kept me up at night just
17:03
trying to understand where things are going.
17:05
Hmm.
17:07
Yeah, it's, it, yeah.
17:09
I mean, you, you bring up AI and all that.
17:10
We could probably talk for hours about that.
17:12
There's so much going on in that world and so much
17:15
that's changing and we'll probably come back to that.
17:17
But, you know, going through that, being
17:19
adaptable, I mean, that makes a lot of sense.
17:21
Um, for where you've been in what you, what you're
17:25
even, you know, learning and going through today.
17:27
Right.
17:28
But like, has there been anything, like what has
17:30
kept you anchored or rooted during this time?
17:32
Has it been just the yoga or are there other things that kind of help
17:35
you stay focused as you go through these times and help you be adaptable?
17:40
Yeah.
17:40
Yoga for sure.
17:42
My wife, uh, family.
17:44
And I think drive, just having that, having that drive, that's something that
17:48
even in my darkest hours hasn't disappeared, which I'm really grateful for.
17:52
Um, I think that's what's, that's what's kept me going.
17:56
That's great.
17:57
That's great.
17:57
Well, let's dive in now and talk a little bit more about,
18:00
be kept up talking about the affiliate side of things.
18:03
Um, how long, when, when did you find found be kept up by the way?
18:08
So this was 2023, I believe, early 2023.
18:15
I was experiencing a leave taking time off of work for FMLA
18:19
and sort of understanding what my next options were while.
18:23
Trying to balance my health and it was difficult to
18:25
work a full-time job while going to appointments.
18:28
I think I went to 150 appointments in a single year,
18:32
so you're talking, you know, almost every other day.
18:35
Um, which was pretty insane.
18:37
So, you know, that, that was definitely interesting.
18:40
Um, but for me it was about, well, what lifestyle do I want
18:43
to create and what can I create given these circumstances?
18:48
Where it's not gonna add additional undue stress to
18:50
myself and my family, but create more of a means.
18:53
So for me it was, okay, I have these relationships, I have the wherewithal.
18:58
This is an internet business.
18:59
There's limited overhead and let me just try this.
19:02
If it doesn't work out, it know I'll return back to the corporate world.
19:06
But it was a time to take self ownership and really
19:09
rise up given that I had the confidence from.
19:12
From protege and I'm helping harbor and con, uh, confidence
19:15
in myself and giving me the grounds and the support to, to
19:19
really thrive and take off and be exposed to so much there.
19:22
They, uh, sort of dropped me in a bucket in many
19:26
regards and I figured had to figure a lot of things out.
19:29
Um, and I'm really grateful for that because they exposed me to so much,
19:33
you know, whether that's the corporate world, whether that's interacting
19:35
with the C-suite, whether that's documentations, processes, uh, you name it.
19:40
But that was, that was a really great stepping stone
19:43
for me and I'm, you know, really grateful for them.
19:46
That's, that's great.
19:47
Um.
19:49
So you mentioned, you mentioned protege and you were VP of sales over there.
19:52
I find sales roles are always like, they're gonna
19:55
be your proving ground for what you can do next.
19:57
Um, you know, and learning, learning the, the industry
20:01
and figuring out, you know, things within that.
20:04
What did you, what did you learn during your time
20:07
there that's helped you with getting be kept up?
20:09
Started?
20:10
It's a marathon, not a sprint.
20:12
It's probably the largest one.
20:14
Especially in a sales role where you have people chirping in
20:17
your ears or you have goals and you put pressure on yourself,
20:22
or there's pressure from others, or it can be competitive,
20:25
uh, you know, just realizing it's a marathon, not a sprint.
20:28
And I think if you're doing the work and you're
20:31
not stressing about it, good things are gonna come.
20:35
You know, I, I think there's a couple approaches in sales.
20:37
There's the, there's the trust mentality and there's the lack mentality.
20:42
They both can get you to the same place, but are you gonna lose
20:47
more energy in the process with one of 'em as opposed to the other?
20:50
Potentially?
20:50
I.
20:52
Yeah.
20:53
Yeah, it definitely, definitely can be a marathon when you're,
20:57
when you're in those markets, um, especially depending on buying
21:00
cycles and all that fun stuff that comes along with having to
21:03
sell and figuring out when people are gonna make decisions.
21:06
It's like, are they gonna make the deal?
21:07
Are they gonna close it or are we waiting another quarter for that?
21:10
Um.
21:11
I'm, I feel you,
21:15
some of my background is in sales, so I'm,
21:17
I'm very empathetic to sales backgrounds.
21:19
I'm always like, yes, I, I get you.
21:21
I understand.
21:22
Want to launch a podcast without the hassle?
21:25
Humble pod makes podcasting easy from concept to launch.
21:28
We'll help you create a professional engaging show.
21:31
Already have a podcast.
21:33
We handle editing, show notes, transcriptions, and even video production
21:37
so you can focus on your content With our tailored services, you get high
21:41
quality production, seamless publishing, and expert support at every step.
21:46
Whether you're starting fresh or leveling up, humble pod ensures
21:49
your podcast sounds amazing and reaches the right audience.
21:53
Visit humble pod.com to get started today.
22:03
And so then, then getting into be kept up, you're starting this
22:06
on your own, you're, you're testing out the waters, obviously,
22:08
you know, it's a, a marathon and not a sprint at this point.
22:11
Um, at what point did you have that, what I call the
22:14
moment of validation in your business where you're like,
22:17
okay, it's not just an idea, it's not just a concept.
22:20
Oh, we have buying customers, we know this is gonna be a real thing.
22:24
What was that moment of validation for you that you were on the right path?
22:26
That's a
22:27
great question.
22:28
I think once we hit over six figures revenue in a single month, that
22:33
was, that was the proving ground of, you know, okay, there's some
22:37
legs here and you know, what are we, what are we gonna do from here?
22:41
You know, it was the first year, maybe a year and a half, it was
22:45
slower, and you have to be ever changing and adaptable once again.
22:49
You go in with a certain idea or a certain flow or expectation.
22:52
You know, expectations can be a little bit dangerous at times,
22:56
um, because they can get in our way of adapting because we're so
23:00
focused on how we see it rather than what's actually going on.
23:04
But I'd, I'd say the first year and a half was slow.
23:06
And once we hit six figures, revenue, that was sort of
23:09
the turning point for me of, okay, there's legs here.
23:12
What can we do?
23:13
How can we grow this thing?
23:14
And, and also an appreciation, I think so many times,
23:18
especially in sales, if we're focused on the future.
23:23
Either the past or the future, but not the present in sales.
23:25
And I think that's, that can be the trap of, uh, you know,
23:29
let me stay grateful for what's here, for what's provided for.
23:33
And because of that, more abundance will come.
23:35
And I think that's the, the mentality and sales
23:39
that's very important as opposed to, you know.
23:43
We did this and the clock just reset and we have a new goal
23:46
attached to our, our head, or you know, how am I gonna get there?
23:50
Just all this mental chatter, but just, I'm grateful for what's
23:53
provided and certain trust that, you know what, there will be more.
23:58
I'm gonna do my job.
23:59
And more will attach to it.
24:01
Yeah.
24:01
I, I think, I mean, you bring up a good point about being grateful
24:04
for the present and sales because I think, um, a lot of people and,
24:08
and myself included in this, I'm very guilty of being anxious about
24:12
closing the deals to close out the month to make sure things happen.
24:16
But as I have learned on the, on the backside of it
24:19
being a business owner, you know, running my own company
24:21
and having other people sell to me now, um, you know.
24:25
You can smell the desperation.
24:30
It's a, it's an, it's an energy.
24:31
It is.
24:33
Absolutely it is.
24:33
And you can, you can tell it's there, you can tell when
24:36
someone is just dying to close a deal and when they're nervous
24:39
and if they beg you hard enough, you might help 'em out.
24:42
But like even then, like you don't want that kind of a deal because
24:46
you've, you're setting the relationship on, I'm helping you out.
24:49
I'm, I'm doing you a solid bro, versus, Hey, I
24:51
really need this and you're solving my problem.
24:53
And, um, the, the way I've always heard it, I don't
24:56
know if you're familiar with Adam Sandler, but he.
24:58
Adam Sandler.
24:59
No wrong Sandler.
25:02
Familiar, familiar with him?
25:04
Yeah.
25:04
Yeah.
25:05
Adam Sandler has some great quotes, but not about sales.
25:08
Um, man, it, I'm just jet lagged here, so get so, bear with me.
25:12
Adam.
25:12
Adam, grant.
25:13
No, no, no.
25:14
Sand.
25:14
It is Sandler, um,
25:17
San Sandler's last name, Sandler Sales Program and all that stuff.
25:20
I'll come up with his first name and we'll put it in the show notes.
25:23
Um, or I'll probably remember by the time we're done with this, but, um.
25:27
He, he basically, he talks about, you know, approaching a sales deal is if
25:31
you have a million dollars in your pocket, you, you wanna operate in a way
25:35
where if you lose this deal, it's not the end of your family and your life.
25:41
And, um, and yeah, I think being able to have that healthy mentality,
25:45
some of that comes from, you know, building a good business, knowing
25:48
where your revenues are at, understanding where your financial future is.
25:51
I'm sure that has a lot to do with it.
25:53
But yeah, it's a different approach once you, once you realize, okay, I
25:57
know next month is covered, but we wanna do more, so how can we do more?
26:01
And that's a much different conversation than, okay, I need this,
26:05
you have to close this deal, or My business is bankrupt type of deal.
26:09
So yeah, it's a much different mental approach.
26:13
And I, I mean, in this day and age, you look at publicly traded companies
26:16
and the, the growth potential that they're on and the pressures.
26:19
Internally and, you know, look, money's great at the end of the day.
26:23
It's not everything I, I think, you know, you're on the same page.
26:26
There is that there's more to life and what are we trying to do?
26:28
Is it legacy?
26:29
Is it family?
26:29
Is it, you know, doing good, leaving the
26:31
world in a better place than we found it?
26:33
What is it for me?
26:35
You know, I love money, but it's not everything.
26:38
It's, it's energy.
26:39
It's, it's the fruits of our labor.
26:41
It's the fruits of our output.
26:42
So, so, you know, I think it's really interesting
26:44
just seeing the pressures that are put on a lot of.
26:48
And workers, uh, compared to 50 or a hundred years ago.
26:51
And, you know, growth, growth, growth, growth, growth.
26:54
It's like, when is enough enough?
26:56
You know?
26:58
Yeah.
26:59
Everyone's running ragged, uh, at a certain point.
27:01
So, you know, I, I think that's, that's interesting.
27:04
Um, and that's not to say that I don't, you know, value myself
27:07
for this business or have a high, you know, growth potential.
27:10
It's just a different mentality behind it.
27:12
Understanding the cycles.
27:14
Yeah.
27:15
There's, um, there's a thought leader that
27:17
I, I love to follow a guy named Ed Tron.
27:19
I don't know if you're familiar with him or not, um, but
27:22
Ed talks a lot about this, this growth first mentality
27:26
that startups and technology companies have right now.
27:28
And it's an obsession to which like.
27:31
We end up abusing the end user as a result of our desire for growth.
27:36
I mean, I don't know if you have Facebook on your phone or you've
27:39
avoided putting apps on your phone for mental health reasons or whatever.
27:42
I know some people have, some people haven't.
27:44
I am dumb and have kept it on there partially 'cause I'm a
27:47
small business owner and I have to keep my marketing going, but.
27:50
Every time I look at my phone, Facebook has like 10 plus
27:53
notifications, and every time I go in, nothing's relevant to me.
27:56
But you know what they've done?
27:57
They've increased their engagement because somebody has opened the
28:00
app and they've scrolled through the phone and if they're lucky,
28:03
something on that homepage caught my eye and I scrolled for a little
28:06
bit before I went back to work or back to doing something else.
28:09
Way more important than looking at Facebook.
28:11
But they're just doing that to basically torture the end user and drive those
28:15
engagement numbers, drive those gross numbers, growth numbers, and yeah, it's,
28:20
it's a very abusive, it's becoming a very abusive system to the end user.
28:23
And I just wonder how long, how long those
28:26
types of companies are gonna stick around.
28:28
And when you talk about a sustainable
28:30
business, you want something that has those.
28:32
Deeper relationships that aren't all just, oh,
28:36
we're gonna get bigger this year than last year.
28:38
So, um, I mean, growth is important.
28:41
Your team needs to feel growth.
28:42
They need to feel like you're progressing.
28:44
But progress can be different than growth.
28:47
I completely agree.
28:48
And, you know, there's, there's fatigue all around.
28:50
You know, our phone is constantly buzzing for our attention.
28:53
Um, you know, raising a family with only a landline, you know, when I grew up,
28:58
for example, as opposed to anyone pinging you for anything at a moment's notice.
29:03
Expecting, uh, a reply, whether that's email or text, or call or
29:07
whatever it is, it's a whole different ball game and everyone's
29:11
fighting for our attention, and we only have so much energy.
29:14
Everyone has the same amount of hours in a day.
29:18
And how are, how are we going to use it?
29:19
You know, that's, that's entirely up to us.
29:21
But I think that's what's interesting.
29:22
Everyone's vying for our time.
29:24
It's the same reason psychologists are working for these, you know, big
29:27
social media companies or apps or whomever it is, because they wanna keep
29:32
you on their product and they wanna keep you engaged in something relevant.
29:36
Um, at the end of the day, you're a data stream.
29:38
You're, you're a source of revenue, you're a number in their, uh,
29:42
advertising metrics and you know, you're providing revenue for them.
29:46
Absolutely.
29:47
Um, and it's, it is crazy.
29:50
And to see where we're going, I mean, we, we, you mentioned, kind
29:53
of alluded to this already, but like that intensity of what we
29:56
need to do to keep up and to keep growing is just gonna continue
29:58
to increase, I think both for the business and for the individuals.
30:01
People go, oh, well AI should be able to handle that.
30:04
You should be able to move faster now.
30:06
Right?
30:07
Yeah.
30:08
I mean it's, it's insane.
30:09
Um, you look at a few industries, I look at even
30:12
what's gonna happen to public schools and teachers.
30:16
You know, is, is that going to change?
30:18
Um, programmers, everyone was talking about going into
30:22
coding camp and becoming a coder just a few years ago.
30:26
Now you have tools like, uh, you know, cursor or what's
30:28
the Lovable or any of these, and you can make apps or
30:33
databases, platforms, dashboards, websites, just from prompts.
30:37
Someone who has no coding knowledge whatsoever
30:40
can develop a website in under 10 minutes.
30:43
It's insane.
30:43
It's, it's just surreal.
30:46
I mean, in, in the way those have even developed in the
30:48
past year or too, like what used to just develop a little
30:51
bit of HTML code now, like you said, does a whole website.
30:54
Um, and yeah, it's gonna be, it's gonna be a different world.
30:58
Um, but I don't think it's the end of the world.
31:00
I think the people who panic and say it's gotta be the end of
31:02
the world of the worst because, um, you know, there's so much
31:06
opportunity to take advantage of it if you know what to do with it.
31:10
Um, and know how to leverage it.
31:11
So I think there is some of that as well.
31:13
But yeah, it's a, it's a delicate balance, I think, with AI and that technology.
31:19
Agreed.
31:19
And, you know, look, there's people who are gonna be doom and
31:21
gloom and there are many circumstances that, uh, you know,
31:25
warrant that caution or precaution or fear in some regards.
31:30
But then there's the other side.
31:31
Look, we're in a duality planet.
31:32
There's good, there's bad.
31:34
And a lot of the times we can find one of
31:36
those, uh, both of those in something singular.
31:40
So, you know, we're gonna adapt as we have, as
31:43
we have for thousands of years on this planet.
31:46
And that's the name of the game, is that we're
31:49
gonna be forced to adapt whether we like it or not.
31:51
And I think, you know, I do think there are some hard times coming
31:54
for a lot of people, whether that's economically, um, whether
31:57
that's jobs, whether that's global insecurity, whatever it is.
32:01
But I do think that at the core of it.
32:04
Having to live those lessons and live through those experiences is gonna
32:08
make us stronger and we're gonna pass it on for future generations.
32:11
Yeah.
32:12
I, I think so too.
32:14
Um, I mean, you and I kind of grew up in the same era, so we saw, um,
32:19
I think I'm a little bit older than you, but like I, I remember seeing
32:21
like my dad go from having a desktop computer to bringing home a laptop
32:26
and then from dial up to high speed internet and everything in between.
32:31
And it's at every step, there's always been that doom and gloom,
32:34
news media going, oh no, this is the end of the world, this new.
32:39
Technology's gonna take over and people are gonna lose jobs, and people do.
32:42
But jobs also change job titles and careers and things, and I think
32:46
it's just gonna lead to a, hopefully, a better future for everybody.
32:49
But, um, yeah, it's an interesting place to be.
32:52
So Awesome.
32:54
I agree with you.
32:54
And you know, my, my hope is this, my hope is that, you
32:58
know, we take these experiences and we can learn and we
33:00
can adapt and we can become better through all of this.
33:04
Um.
33:04
And being more conscious and also maybe
33:08
not have this digital fatigue that we have.
33:10
I think with AI and content creation and all of these different things that
33:14
are coming to fruition at the same time, there is a fatigue at a certain point.
33:19
When are we gonna just take our phone and throw and
33:20
say, I just wanna be outside and play in the woods.
33:23
You know, like that's, that's how I see it is, uh, things
33:28
are only getting more intelligent, competing for a time,
33:30
even more, and we're feeling more pressures to, to keep up.
33:35
With this system, that's fear that we're born into.
33:40
And so, you know, I, I hope that it leads to more authentic relationships and
33:45
human connections and get togethers and, uh, just being real with each other as
33:50
opposed to trying to know everything and running every single thing through ai.
33:53
I think at this point in time, we're all, a lot of us,
33:57
myself included, we're trying to be perfectionists.
34:01
Well, you know, this information's out there and
34:03
can I be an expert in this and an expert in that.
34:06
And at the end of the day, it's, we're human.
34:08
Make the mistake, fail forward and move on.
34:11
Yeah, I mean the, just the, the idea you, you mentioning
34:15
like people being on their phones and devices, I'm thinking
34:17
now of like the, what they talk about with the Gen Z stare.
34:20
I don't know if you've heard of this one.
34:22
Um, I, I think, I think by that nod you have, but, but that Zi stare, I,
34:28
I've experienced it.
34:30
You know, I have too, and I'm, I'm like, I'm so grateful.
34:32
They put a name on it and I was like, oh, I know what that is now.
34:37
Like, I've seen that a bunch recently and didn't know what I was dealing with.
34:40
But yeah, it's, it's just people trying to explore that,
34:43
understand that that whole psychology behind, and a
34:46
lot of it comes from like a disconnect with technology.
34:48
And I'm gonna sound like an old man saying that these kids
34:50
these days, but it really is like just, you know, you don't.
34:56
You just don't know how to interact with people, or you think it's
34:58
funny to be that kind of rude to people because you don't understand,
35:03
you know, the basic decency behind human, human interaction with
35:06
strangers, and it's just a wild, wild future that we potentially have.
35:12
But I, I agree with you.
35:13
I want us to get back to more.
35:15
Um, authentic connections and hopefully this technology at some point will make
35:19
it to where we actually don't need to be in front of a screen as frequently.
35:23
We can be more face-to-face as we were joking
35:26
about before the interview got started.
35:28
Um, you know, maybe there's a time that comes where we
35:31
have to have a podcast face-to-face because it's the
35:34
only way to prove the authenticity of the interviews.
35:37
Um, but yeah, it's just the, the wild world we're living in.
35:43
I agree wildly.
35:44
And, you know, I, I think, you know, something relevant for, for our
35:48
conversation here is I think the landscape of business is changing where it's
35:52
not so much what can you do individually, but it's about creating systems.
35:57
And I think that's where the, the age of AI, per se, is
36:00
leading us to how can we create systems and become operators
36:05
rather than just doers and putting everything on our plate.
36:08
And I think that's what's gonna separate.
36:10
The next wave of businesses is, how can I operate and manage as
36:15
opposed to let me just put everything on my plate until I'm drowning.
36:20
That's a good point.
36:21
That's, that's actually a really good point because, you
36:23
know, I, I think just on the small business side of what
36:26
we do, um, the more I can use AI and leverage AI to.
36:31
Smooth our operations out, the more I'm
36:33
trying to do, because that's a huge help.
36:35
You know, we don't use it so much externally with production, but with,
36:39
um, internal stuff, like if we can find a way to, you know, make it to
36:43
where a client drops a folder in, it goes to this place and does all
36:45
that, like all those simple operational things make a huge difference.
36:48
And I can just see in the future how more and
36:51
more of that will become relevant and important.
36:54
That's a good point.
36:55
I like that.
36:56
It's almost like the, the CEO mindset I see of, you know, how can
37:00
I, how can I, even if you're managing AI systems, so be it, but
37:04
taking you out and realizing that you need to have that bird's idea.
37:08
Yeah.
37:09
Oh yeah.
37:09
And, and I mean, I don't know if you've heard this, but I've,
37:12
I've heard a lot of rumors around like, oh, CEOs are the ones
37:15
that risk the most by AI actually, because of how they can
37:19
view systems and view processes and, you know, make decisions.
37:23
And it's like, why do you need a CEO and why do you need to pay a
37:26
millions of dollars if you could have an AI make those same decisions?
37:30
Yeah.
37:30
We're seeing the same with coders.
37:31
I mean, what coders at Google, we're making three, four, $500,000 easy a year.
37:36
And, you know, we are importing talent from all across the world.
37:39
And now you have coders that are managing
37:42
AI systems and just verifying their work.
37:45
So you have a, you have a team of 10.
37:48
I keep hearing this, the rule of 10 all the time.
37:50
You had these 10 performers, one was the best performer.
37:53
They're keeping that best performer, loading
37:55
it through AI and just verifying the work.
37:58
I mean, it's, it's unfortunate for those people and don't get me
38:01
wrong, and I, you know, definitely feel for them, their families, and.
38:05
Have you and the skillset that they've spent so much time learning, um, this is
38:09
the way the world and where it's going right now of, of, once again, adaptation.
38:14
How are we gonna adapt and become operators rather than just doers?
38:18
Yeah, there's a lot of adaption or a adaption, that's not the right word.
38:22
Adaptation is the word I was going for there.
38:25
Um, there's a lot of adaptation that has to happen
38:27
I think in the next few months, if anything.
38:30
Um, and in the coming years for sure.
38:33
So that's great.
38:34
Well, Josh, this has been awesome.
38:35
I've really enjoyed this conversation.
38:38
Before we wrap up, I always like to ask this one question.
38:40
You may may already know it, um, but the one I like to
38:43
ask at the end is, what brand do you admire the most?
38:46
And just to add a little more color to that, when I say admire, I don't
38:49
just mean like what's your favorite brand that you use, but what's
38:52
maybe a brand that has even inspired how you build your business.
38:55
So with that in mind, what, what brand do you admire the most?
38:59
You know, a against popular opinion these days.
39:02
I think Tesla is a great example of American entrepreneurship.
39:06
Love Musk or hate him, whatever someone's view is.
39:09
I mean, they came out of nowhere and took down legacy
39:12
car makers that have been there for over a hundred years.
39:16
Practically overnight, under the radar.
39:18
And now you have the richest man in the world who, who
39:20
built this, this company somehow and came out of nowhere.
39:22
So, um, you know, there's a lot of things they don't do right.
39:25
And I'll be the first person to tell you
39:26
that, but there's, I, I will not hold that.
39:29
But I think what they built in such a short time is inspiring and
39:32
it, it shows you what we can create in this country, uh, on a dime.
39:36
Um, you know, there still is.
39:39
Some elements of freedom, uh, in the country.
39:41
Um, but just seeing what they built, how they
39:44
built it, um, and revolutionizing the game.
39:47
I, I, I really look at that model and I say, uh, wow.
39:52
I don't know how you did it.
39:53
Going against the automakers, going against
39:56
the regulators, going against the lobbyists.
39:58
Um, it's definitely an interesting journey to see.
40:01
Yeah.
40:01
Oh, it's fascinating.
40:02
I, I can remember seeing, um, an episode of Top Gear
40:07
where Tesla came on and they drove, um, the original
40:11
Tesla, which was just a modified Lotus Elise around, yeah.
40:15
The little Roadster.
40:16
And I actually saw one of those, um, I used to live in Lexington,
40:19
Kentucky, and they had this big event every year called the Concourse gans.
40:23
And every year was a different theme for cars.
40:26
In one year, they had, um, Tesla as not the
40:28
main manufacturer, but they had a, that Tesla.
40:30
Roads through there, and it was before Tesla was, you know, a household name.
40:35
So it was really cool to see them back then and be
40:37
like, I wonder if that company will be anything.
40:39
That'd be cool to see them do something
40:41
successful and then to see where they're at.
40:43
I, I agree from a, you know, from a marketing, a branding
40:46
perspective, like they've done an incredible job.
40:48
I, I, no doubt about that.
40:50
The person, the person most in charge for things right now.
40:53
Got some questions about, but
40:56
wholeheartedly agree.
40:57
Wholeheartedly agree.
40:58
I mean, the fact that they built a car that can be faster than
41:00
a Ferrari or a Lamborghini, uh, the car is 10 20 x the price.
41:05
I mean, that's, that's nothing short of incredible.
41:08
Oh yeah.
41:08
No, not at all.
41:10
Not at all.
41:10
And I think that's fascinating.
41:11
So great.
41:12
That's awesome.
41:13
Well, Josh, where can people find you?
41:15
Where can people connect with you if they want to learn
41:17
more about, be kept up or just connect with you in person?
41:21
Yeah, definitely.
41:21
LinkedIn is the way to go for me.
41:23
Joshua Kak, K-O-P-A-C.
41:25
Uh, website is b kept up.com.
41:28
And uh, if you're attending Affiliate Summit or any of the, uh,
41:31
affiliate shows, money 2020, uh, affiliate Summit West, MAU, you name it.
41:36
I'd love to see you there.
41:37
Feel free to reach out.
41:39
Awesome.
41:39
Again, Chris, thank you for having me on.
41:41
Josh, thank you so much.
41:43
I really appreciate it today.
41:44
It's been a lot of fun.
41:45
Sure
41:45
thing.
41:46
Thanks again.
41:47
Thanks for checking out this episode of We Built This Brand.
41:50
Don't forget to like and subscribe on your player of choice.
41:53
You can also keep up with the podcast on we built this brand.com.
41:57
If you like this episode, please give the podcast a five star review and make
42:01
sure to tell all your friends about it so we can continue to build this brand.