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How AI 10x'd This Podcast Network? Behind-the-Scenes Secrets with DM Meador · Imperfect Marketing

• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Kendra Korman.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: If you're a coach, consultant or marketer, you know marketing is far from a perfect science, and that's why this show is called Imperfect Marketing.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Join me and my guests as we explore how to grow your business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned along the way.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Imperfect Marketing.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, Kendra Korman, and I am really excited to be joined today by Dennis.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Dennis started a podcasting system specifically for attorneys and I love podcasting as a marketing tool, so I'm super happy to have you.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining me.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Good to be here.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: Already enjoyed our what do they call that?
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: The green room discussion, so I think we'll have some fun talking and digging into some of the stuff we've already said we want to talk about.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Yes, because there is so much stuff.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: So tell me and tell everybody what had you?
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Start a podcasting system and network.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Well, I did a podcast in 2019 in Austin and what I saw and where I really feel like there's a great or there's a lot of opportunity in social media and in really what is you know, with YouTube and Spotify and everything, where we're all our own media company now and I think that we don't think like business owners, don't think of themselves as media companies, but if they're doing their own marketing and they're trying their own thing, you know they are a media company and a lawyer, they are a media company and a coach or consultant or whatever.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Most people don't realize that.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: And so when I did my podcast in 2019 in Austin, it was just a podcast about.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: I called it FML ATX food, music and life, not F my life.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Right, we started off as ATX AF.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: Oh, it was FML per DM, because I actually go by DM.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: That's why I put it in the thing by my initials, because I'm a junior, just makes it easier.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: What I noticed is you know, I brought in like three cameras.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: One of them was shooting in 4k in 2019.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: I had two sound people, I had a I don't even know like a gopher and I had a co host.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: I'd like 10 people on this podcast team that I paid.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: They were like full time working blah blah couple editors.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: All of that and what I noticed is I was not, by any stretch of the imagination, the only person trying to cover music, cover food, cover life in Austin.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: There was a lot of lifestyle podcasts, but mine quickly rose to the top for one reason, and that was production value.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: And so that was my takeaway made some great friends out of it, didn't monetize the podcast, really didn't have any intention.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: I did 60 episodes in three months.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: They were all on location at places, and I ended up spending about $150,000 just to make a high quality podcast that now sits on YouTube and has anywhere from 30 to 3,000 views on each show.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: So what do I take away from that right?
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: So in life we either have failures or lessons, depending on how we look at it.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: My lesson was when you put something out with a higher production value than the median, it immediately makes an impact and others respond much better to it.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: So I knew that Well.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: I've worked with attorneys for 20 years.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: I was in an SEO agency with my former partner.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: He bought me out, I came out on my own, and one of the things that I had suggested to him was like hey, I think podcasting for lawyers would be great.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: We ended up doing an answering service instead, no big deal.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: But when me and him broke off, that's when I launched this network deal.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: But when me and him broke off, that's when I launched this network, because I know that if we can provide a simple turnkey, something that doesn't take up a lot of their times and is cost effective, a method in which attorneys can utilize that to not just market themselves but separate themselves, because this is authority positioning.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: What we're doing is we're saying listen, you are going to be our divorce attorney for the DFW metro area.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: You got Dallas County, you got Tarrant County, you're the only divorce lawyer we're working with in this marketplace.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: And so now they're not the only divorce lawyer, they're not the only podcast, they're not the only social media marketer.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: We can't shut everything.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: I had somebody ask me that how can you not let anybody else have a podcast?
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: I'm like listen, it's not a podcast, it's on our network.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: With our production, we got into it.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: Basically, where I saw the opportunity is if I can make it simple, cost-effective and take very little bit of their time.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: Really that's a winning formula for any marketing thing, but on top of it, this thing works and our attorneys are just like right now we're just like.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: I'm like hey guys, every client that's been with us more than six months, at the end of their next shoot, shoot a testimony with them.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: Because when I talk to every single one of those clients, every single one gives me a story about a client.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: Every single one gives me a story about how much they love what we're doing, what it's done for them, not just as a attorney to get clients, but among other attorneys, and they love it.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: So we're just now just garnering all that and bringing that in to be able to just now go back to attorneys and go guys, it's simple, doesn't cost a lot and it's super effective.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: Now let's work together and that's really what we're trying to do.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: I love, and one thing I want to point out about that is I love how you're specifically making time to go get those testimonials, because it's something we forget to do so often, right, and people are busy, so if you just send them an email, they're not all going to respond, even if they love your stuff, right.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: So taking that time is awesome.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: Well, we have this advantage, right.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: We have them in front of the camera.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: How often?
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: At least every four months at least.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: You know some people, we have it twice a month.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: All I do is we call them up and we just launch this new product where we went from three to 30.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: And you know, like we have, we went from like just random emails for people on the team hey, this is done.
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: Check it to like now we have a structured Monday morning email with all their actions, everything we've done, everything they need, all of that.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: So we're transitioning away from like kind of like that haphazard sort of approach and then coming in and saying, ok, here's everything laid out for you.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: I mean you basically demystified podcasting and specifically for that is a chat GPT word that did not exist until a year ago.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: I've used that word for years.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: Have you used it for more than five years?
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: Yes, I will allow you a pass.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: You are the first person, Because we literally have a database of words not allowed in our marketing.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: Demystify delve.
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: Deep dive, dive, deep Crucial.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: I got them too.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: I got a whole list and it's so funny because I write stuff myself and I'll use those words, but my AI outputs don't help.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's you know.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: So anyway, sorry I was teasing you.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: You're good, go ahead.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: You're good, I'm like no no, no, I've got this.
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: I had a big vocabulary to start with.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: It wasn't just AI.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: Problem is with vocabulary, because I've read profusely since I was like four or five years old and from like first grade on that, I can read like a 12th grade level.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: They told me, you know those old tests you take every year, and so I'm a pretty voracious reader.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: Plus, I grew up in church and we use like the old King James Bible, so I've got that like vocabulary accessible on top of the fact of like like so much of our English is built off of that.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: You know that book so.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: But what I find is it's easier for me to use big words when I'm struggling, like I'm not running on all cylinders, I can't talk simply, I can only think of the word that perfectly encapsulates my thought.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: I can't think of the broader, general thing that explains it to them so they can actually understand me.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: And so when I find myself using a lot of big words, I kind of like slow down because I'm like okay, mentally my reservoir has come down a little bit and I need to recharge a little bit, get my brain back up to where I'm doing things correctly.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: Yes, and AI is a good helper with that.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: It's like okay, can you explain this to someone who doesn't know all my acronyms?
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: You've been using, leveraging AI speaking of AI, right so your podcast network, you've been using it in your company.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: What's it done for you?
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: It's 10x, literally our product.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: So when we started a little over a year ago, it was a show, three pieces of content, and they were all shorts or reels, one before one, right around the same time the show got released and one after.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: And what we saw in the beginning was this is a great supplementary product.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: But what I've learned about most small law firms is and they'll buy one marketing system, try it for six months, not get a ton of results and then move on to the next marketing system for four months.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: So that's just something that we've seen throughout the years, and so what we try to do is, internally knowing that, keep that plugged in with everything that we're doing.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: Like I said, we 10x'd.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: We also are able to now, like every week and that's not quite in AI yet, but a lot of pieces of AI put the reporting together and every week we send them an email with the five things they need.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: This is when your last podcast was produced or when it was released.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: This is when the next one will be released and where you can see them.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: Okay, this is when you need one will be released and where you can see them.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, this is when you need to schedule your next podcast by no later.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: You can do one hour session or two hour session.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: Okay, here's all of the content that's going out this week.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: Here's all the content that we want to go out next week.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: But we just need you to look at it.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: Make sure you don't hate it.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: I don't remember what the last thing was, but it's five things, and so we list that for them and we're getting ready, hopefully, to even be able to automate all of that.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: So every time we find all these big, huge things where I'm talking to my team and we're like, should we hire two or three people?
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: And then I'm like, well, hold on, let's just see what we can find out there.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: And we go and I look and I honestly cannot count the amount of AI things I've looked at in the last year.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: But we look, we find a need and now all of a sudden, instead of hiring three people at, you know, let's say they're offshore at 500 bucks a month, 1500 bucks a month I find a software for $220 a month or $39 a month.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: You know, a lot of these AI things are even cheaper because you know they can be duplicated.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: So with us being able to do that, that's really helped us with our clients.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: So one of the things that I get from people all the time and actually I just did a presentation on AI the day we're recording but someone was pushing back and they feel that AI is bland and that it's not the right content, which is why I love podcasts, because the majority of podcasts, because now there's AI generated podcasts, but the majority of AI podcasts are real people.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: They're real content.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: Even if they're AI characters, they're still.
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: It's still real content to a large extent.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: What are your thoughts about AI in podcasting and for this thought leadership your attorneys are doing?
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: We use it for content plans, question plans, we use it for ancillary.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: We don't build with AI, we supplement with AI, and what I tell people is in our company it's always AI, then eyes, so it's an AI person.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: Then they added it and they put their eyes on it.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: Then they send it to one other person and we have people from California to the Philippines and everywhere in between so they might send it from like.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: We have a team in Pakistan full-time I think we're at 15 or 17 now.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: They'll finish it.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: Then they always send it to somebody in the United States and then the people in the United States go through.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: You know, I gave an example of this today.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: I said listen.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: I said you know, we've got to get, we've got to work on our finish editing because we want to insert B-roll.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: And we've been doing B-roll in short video, which is easy to fix and easy to work with.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: But I want to put it in our long video because of the two to three minutes of attention that you get.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: If you don't move the camera view every two minutes, then people get bored, you know.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: So I'm like, listen, I want to use B-roll.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: I said.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: But the problem is, I said this to my team director over there.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: I said, when your people put in B-roll, it will fill in.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: Something like, for example, how like a business office, but in this business office it'll be filled with women with hijabs.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: And I'm like now to your guys probably they don't even see it, but when you send that to an American and say business and they see a bunch of hijabs, they're just like who put, this must have been put together in India.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: So it's that kind of thing.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: That's why we always send our stuff to Americanize.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: And then I mean, I'm not going to deny, I've got a 23 year old daughter.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: She's got health issues.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: She sits on her computer.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: She makes a few hundred dollars a week just watching videos, pausing it, writing down the problem, sending it back in a spreadsheet.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: My 19 year old daughter she works in a hospital, she's got a good job, but she was sick for two weeks and she's like dad, I'm a little behind.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: Hey, I'll send that off to them.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: So we've got people internally, we've got people externally.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: We've got, you know, and we always measure.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: Like, the way we measure is if they do these hundred of these hundred, how many attorneys set back something, and if attorneys send back something consistently, then you know obviously we've got an issue.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: But that's what we do with AI is maybe instead of saying AI, it is AI than human eyes.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: That's what I want to start saying.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: I did like when you said AI than eyes, because that's so true, because that's what I tell people all the time.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: I'm like AI doesn't replace you, definitely doesn't replace you.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: You still have to review what it gives you.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: You have to review that output.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: Someone's like you're a.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: Finnish editor Like.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: That's just all there is to it.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: You didn't buy a department, you put yourself at the head of a department.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: That's what you did.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Exactly, and I think that that really keeps it from being watered down.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, the content that you're creating and that your podcast network has are the real thoughts of these attorneys right?
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: These are the key studies, the tips, the information for the people that are experiencing, whatever it is the topic they cover, right?
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: We literally come in and we bring them on and they're exclusive for their market.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: I think I mentioned that already.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: And then we don't just say, ok, you're a family lawyer, ok, we're going to just talk about family.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: We dig in and we say, ok, let me ask you a question.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: If you could have one client type of client, what does that client or three types, or whatever it is what do those clients look like?
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: And I always like to use this example for divorce.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: I could say I'm a divorce lawyer, but am I a quickie divorce lawyer for 500 bucks?
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: Because that's a whole different way to market.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: I've got to market to as many people as cheap as possible, right?
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: Whereas on the other end of the spectrum, if you are in a major metro area and you only work with high, high net worth individuals with custody and all kinds of assets and all kinds of stuff like that, well, you're making $50,000, $2 million.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: I read something the other day from a divorce lawyer the most he's ever made off one divorce case $3 million, wow.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: But he split up $4 billion.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: Probably percentage-wise wasn't great, but still he made $3 million off of one divorce because it was, you know, just there was $4 billion to split and however that ended up.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: So there's all kinds of spectrums of cases, and so what we then do is we start writing content, for example, instead of saying something like where is the cheapest divorce lawyer in Dallas or who is the cheapest divorce lawyer in Dallas?
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: We don't want him to show up for that.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: We want him to show up for what happens to my boat in a divorce, what happens to my lake house in a divorce, or a second home in a divorce.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: Why Indicates assets?
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: Two this is a smarter shopper, he looking for he or she.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: They're looking for somebody to help them, not just I need a lawyer and I need to find one cheap.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: They understand that there are good lawyers and bad lawyers and they're not all just the same, and so those people that do what are called query based searches there's that advantage, plus what all of the language learning models being built off of Questions and answers, right.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: So I already have my clients saying I just had somebody find me on ChatGPT, I just had somebody else find me on ChatGPT, and they're like I don't even know how I got there.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: And then I'm like look at your infrastructure of marketing and what you're putting out there, and your website has answers and you're in that marketplace that you're sitting in or that that person is in.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: So, when they're typing these specific questions and specific issues and they need clarity and they need their fears assuaged, guess what everybody else is saying come to my website, I do it all.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: I can help you call me while you're saying I'm sorry, what was the issue?
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: Oh, high asset divorce.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: Well, typically, what happens?
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: Oh, with the boat?
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, now, not specifically, but they feel like it's tailored towards them.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: So now they're going to the attorney with a desire.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: They've gone past the no and like and it's just confirming trust.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: That is what we are trying to do for our clients is?
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: It's not about, you know, three million views.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: Hey, let's get them placed on some podcasts.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: It doesn't all have to be news, right?
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: And the PR firm's like, well, that's going to take us a while to do the research, to see what's worth your time, and I'm like, do our people listen to it?
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: Again, even if it's the 30 people, if five of them donate or join or whatever it is for the nonprofit, that's all we need.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah exactly.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: And I'd rather it be 30 people rather than 30,000 people, because out of the 30,000, we might get one because it's such a wide group right.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: Are you all digital in your career?
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: Pretty much Did you work in marketing before digital.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: I did for a few years from like 96 to like 03-ish, and in 03, I was like, only digital now.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: I had a couple years that I worked at a newspaper and it was all print.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: Well, I did a print program with a newspaper a long time ago.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: Here's what I tell attorneys with.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: That Is, I'm like 15 years ago, if I would have ran a newspaper ad for you for X amount of dollars and you would have gotten five people clients out of it, you would have been thrilled.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: You know how.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: I know that Because I've done this since people were thrilled to get one or two clients.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: Now, instead you're saying and it's like sometimes I have to break down for attorneys just sort of simple things like okay, john, I want you to think about the benefit of a podcast that reaches millions versus hundreds.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: All right, so let's think about this your podcast reaching millions.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: You're in a marketplace of 250,000, let's say with you in the surrounding two counties.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: Let's say you're in a state.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: Let's put you in Idaho.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: So there's really only two.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: What?
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: Idaho Falls, boise.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: Is there one other city in Idaho that is a decent size, is a decent metro?
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: Well, anyway, let's just say you're in Idaho, you're in Boise, and now you're looking at this and I don't know what the population of Boise is, but I want to say it's a few hundred thousand, it's not like upwards.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: Let's just put it at half a million.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: You've got a half a million people in your market Just by the simple fact.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: If you got 2 million views on one video, that means that 75% of those people they were relents.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: Let's just look at that.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: First of all, because there isn't even that many people in your market.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: How many divorces go through your court system every year?
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: Usually, divorce attorneys have been around a while.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: They'll give you a guesstimate.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Oh, in our market we usually have about 300 or 400 go through it, given kind of ebbs and flows.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: Okay, so let me ask you it's of more value Over the next 10 weeks or over the next year?
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: Every month you put out a podcast and every podcast reaches 30 of those 300.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: That means in two weeks you've answered, you've no like, and now it's just trust to those people in your marketplace that are looking for an attorney.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: So I think they're just sometimes they get so caught up in like this 12 year old boy makes $27 million a year opening gifts and they're like well, I mean, I'm a grown man like, or a grown woman, I just have to give my knowledge and I should be able to get more than that.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: And it's like that's not how it works and I should be able to get more than that and it's like that's not how it works.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: No, but I like how you're adjusting to the market and to the market that they serve and the niche that they serve within that market, because not everybody is for everybody right.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, I tell that to my clients all the time and it took me a couple of years being in business to really figure that out, and then I took on some clients that I shouldn't have and neither of us were happy.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: You could have the same kind of client every time and still have to.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: I had to fire 15 clients in January just because that 15 clients out of my hundred at the time were taking up 90 percent of my team's bandwidth on just nothingness.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: So I understand.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: It's not that podcasting wasn't right for them right, it could be.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: They just need an employee to do it, not a podcast network, right?
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, I love lawyers.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: They're logical, they're straightforward, but they could be a little tough to work with and not all creatives are as used to dealing with the way that these people will be.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: For example, we had this guy and we were just like I mean, we fought with him.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: He was trying to get free this and free that and say that we said this and we pulled the presentation and we showed him the transcript.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: He was literally trying to get way more money out of us or way more product out of us than he should.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: He was trying to take a 20-minute podcast and make it an hour and 15 minutes for the same cost.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: And I'm like dude, if you want an hour and 15-minute podcast weekly, that's going to be X amount of dollars, not this over here.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: So, that being said, new guy comes in client success had a lot of marketing like customer client success background, but not specifically with attorneys.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: So I said I want you just to sit in with some of these meetings with our clients.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: And he's like okay, so we get in there and it's just like one attorney starts coming at me one way and I was just like, well, listen, like I'm looking at the contract right now.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: This is what you agreed to, this is what you signed to, this is what we're doing and we got out of the meeting.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: He's like dude, like I'm used to the customers always right and I'm like, honestly, if our customers were always right, we would probably have to pay each of them a refund for their time on top of every penny they've ever spent with us.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: If they got their way according to what they think Maybe not everybody, but enough of a portion that it would significantly hurt us.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you've got to hold to your scope, because once you get out of that scope then it's just, it's a downward spiral.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: So I've had to do that and remind people of the scope several different times and anytime I go beyond scope and what they've agreed to, it always comes to bite me in the butt later, you know, because they're like well, you didn't turn this around fast enough and I was like I did it for free, you didn't actually pay for that, I was doing it, you know, and it's like okay, then I think all marketing agencies know, like, whoever spends the least expects the most.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: That's why we got rid of our bottom package, because, like we literally were, just like, let's just make one where we just do the video.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: No marketing, no ancillary, just boom, boom.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: You got a video once a month.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: Every client that we had like that this isn't working.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: What is that?
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: I was like, well, did you market it?
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Well, no, I didn't market it.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: And I'm, like we clearly said in the thing, this includes no marketing, must market your own podcast if you want to see success.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: Well, you know so.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, okay, so this has been just so enlightening.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: I love what you created with the Legal Podcast Network.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: I love how you are leveraging AI to really streamline and add value for your team and your clients.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: I love that you pointed out that you know AI needs reviews, it needs eyes on it.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: Right, you're not outsourcing you, you just made yourself head of a department, just like you said.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: So that is amazing, and thank you so much for sharing it with us.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: Now, before I let you go, I do have to ask you the question that I ask all of my guests, and that is this show is called Imperfect Marketing, because marketing is anything but a perfect science.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: What has been your biggest marketing lesson learned?
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: So I've been in marketing since I was 18, 19, I guess.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: So we're coming on Well.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: I'm 47.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: I'll be 48 this month, so give or take 30 years, right?
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: I would say two things, two lessons I've learned in marketing.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: One always learn what's coming.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Two give things time.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: I think if you are applying those two core principles, among others know who your ICP is, blah, blah, blah blah.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: But I think in just thousand foot view, those two things would settle 90% of the law firms that I work with beforehand in the way their marketing was.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: They're not giving it time and they're not paying attention to what's coming, because lawyers are not known for being cutting edge with their marketing.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: That being said, if they were willing to pay attention, what I've basically been telling attorneys right now is I'm just like listen, if I came to you in 2003 and said let's build you a highly SEO website, what would you say?
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: And you'd be like listen, if I came to you in 2003 and said, let's build you a highly SEO website, what would you say?
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: And you'd be like oh yeah, let's do it.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: Like if you know what you know now.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: So, knowing that the model of the of the Internet is changing, away from reading blogs and blah, blah blah to video.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: 80 percent of people prefer video, knowing that it's turning over to video, knowing that the two sources that Gen Z and Alpha refer to more than anything else by a landslide is number one TikTok, I'll give you that one.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: But the number two source for media is podcasts.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: For Gen Z and Gen A, which means in 10 years we're not going to go.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: Do you remember when everybody used to podcast?
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: In 10 years there's going to be those sites that around 12 to 15, where they were ugly from four to six but yet they showed up on the front page and the attorney was like I'm not touching it because it's just doing great.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: Podcasters are going to have that chance at that time if they've been doing it and they're not joining up.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: So an attorney in a market now has the opportunity by creating all of this content, because when I put it on YouTube, it scales in Google.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: When I put it like, they have an opportunity to get ahead of the curve so that in two, three years, when podcasting is, it just is, it does you don't even have to say anything.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: Podcasting is like right now it exists, it more works in the margins, it more works among French people.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: It's the weird people for the most part, all of us weird people we flock to this, to podcasting, and you know, and YouTube when it first came out.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: How weird was YouTube when it first started, exactly?
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: But look what it is now.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's so much more and I think we're going to see the same thing in podcasting.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: The big difference is going to be professional, business to business is going to go up to a higher, whether they bring in-house people and have their own like podcasting slash video crew full time or they work with companies like ours that help them with this.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: But that is where we're going.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: So pay attention to that, so that when that seismic shift happens because everyone's like paying for Google SEO and yet no one under 30 Googles they chat GPT.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: Now my wife, she's 35, a little bit.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: My wife, she's a little younger than me, 35.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: And like I'm just like I can't, I can't do this, I can't do it.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: She'll be like, oh, I fixed it.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: I'm like what she's like?
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: I took a picture of the TV with chat with and chat GPT and I told it what it was doing and it told me exactly what to do and I was like, really she's like yeah, like I was like here, I am using chat GPT like Google right, just thinking it's better results.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: And I read that old people use chat GPT like Google.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Young people use chat GPT more like for learning and building and like bots and AI, and they understand that it's a universe, not a program on the internet, and so I would really encourage anybody.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: Like, when I hire people right now, the first thing I do is I put them through as much AI programs as I can.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: I've got like the course of one.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: I'm like you know, 22, 25.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: I've been hiring a few more of those lately because we're animating with AI, our first podcast and so, like you know, just look at a lot of this stuff, hiring these guys and the first thing I do that they're like I don't know what to do.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: I'm like just go learn all the AI stuff and they are almost better marketers if they just learn starting AI than if they start from way back.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: And I know you said 30 minutes and that probably extended past it, so that's okay, that's all right, because I think that there was a lot of really good information here and a lot in your lesson learned that we can all learn from right.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: We all need to be giving our marketing time and we all need to be looking to see where the future is going.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: That's why I gave up my audio only podcast and went ahead and set it up with video, right?
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: So I think Because that's where it's at.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: Right and that's where it's headed, and you've got to keep going and keep moving forward and adjusting and testing, because it's not a perfect science, right, and it's going to continue to change and where people go for their information is also going to continue to change.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: So thank you again so much for joining me.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate it.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: We'll have links and every way to get a hold of DM in the show notes If you have any questions and wanna connect with him, and, of course, links to his legal podcast network, which is very, very intriguing.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: So if you want to learn more, check that out.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: If you go on socials, we have four brands.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: We have legal podcast network for business owners, so all of our business attorneys and the advice that they give.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: So we have outlets for that.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: We have lawyerlolz, so means and having fun to connect with lawyers.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: We have four lawyers because we have probably approaching about 10 shows where people that serve the legal industry consultants I'm talking to like a lady who's who dresses men and women attorneys for power or something I don't know.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: So she's going to have a show.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: I have a lady who helps people with video and so we're able to just kind of give them all of that, not just be like, hey, let us produce your video.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: This is a whole like we're building a whole system where attorneys can come in, they can better their practice through learning and they can better their practice through teaching.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: I love it, love it.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: So be sure to tune in another time here on Imperfect Marketing.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: Until next time, have a great rest of your day.