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S14 E1 | Is This God, the Enemy or My Own Emotions? · Therapy and Theology

• DR JOEL MUDDAMALLE: Welcome to today's episode of Therapy and Theology, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm Dr. Joel Muddamalle, and I'm so glad you're tuning in today. We're diving into the very first episode of season 14, where each conversation will help you better navigate the broken world we live in with a spiritual perspective. JOEL: Today's episode will focus on spiritual discernment and how we can grow more aware of the spiritual battle we're in without falling into the temptation of obsessing over the enemy. I pray it'll be really helpful to you. JOEL: Before we dive in, I want to speak to those of you who are walking through a season of hardship. Often, what God teaches us through our own hard seasons becomes part of how we help someone else through theirs. I know that that's been personally true for me. That's why we're so grateful for our friends at the American Association of Christian Counselors and Light University. Their fully online certificate program, Caring for People God's Way, is a biblical counseling program that teaches you how to use God's Word effectively in caring for others well. JOEL: And a special scholarship is available for our listeners, which brings the complete program down to just $99. Visit lightuniversity.com/proverbs31 to learn more and claim your scholarship today. Okay, now let's jump back into today's conversation JOEL: Welcome to season 14 of Therapy and Theology, and I'm sure y'all are wondering, wait a minute, something is off. Why is the theologian sitting in the middle instead of in his rightful spot to the right? Well, I'm gonna help host this season, or at least the first couple episodes of, um, Therapy and Theology. JOEL: And I'm really excited, Lysa and Jim, because we're gonna talk about a topic that I actually am super convinced is one of the most important topics of our time and our age today. Um, we're gonna talk about spiritual warfare, we're gonna talk about discernment, and we're really gonna talk about how to think about this in a practical way that isn't obsessive, but is also something that we don't neglect at the same time Uh, it's like every day it feels like that I'm opening up the news on my phone or getting a new headline where we're seeing tragedy take place in our life. JOEL: And Jim, I know for you, there's probably more and more people that are walking through your doors for therapeutic help and- needing hope because of various addictions or just situations that they're walking through in life. And, um, Lysa, I know that this is a constant part of the books that you're writing and the felt need behind, like why is life not the way I wanted it to be? And how do we process this through what the scriptures actually say? JOEL: And it would be easy for us to think, oh, this is just a byproduct of the fallen world. This is just human nature. And we can miss that there's actually more than what meets the eye in all of this. There is the reality of a real spiritual realm, and there's a reality of an actual enemy who really does hate us and he loves to deceive us, and he loves to divide us, and he ultimately wants to see us destroyed. Um, before we get into today's topic, and really the goal of our time together is to try to figure out how to face earthly hardships with a spiritual lens and a perspective. I wanna start with a little story of what I personally experienced in Atlanta with my family. JOEL: Uh, because some people can think like, "Gosh, this feels really 30,000 feet in the air already," but I wanna show the pragmatics of this. I found myself in Atlanta with my family, and I was with my daughter, MJ. She was probably five or, uh, just turning five at the time, and we were in like a really cool boutique store where at the bottom were all of these food places, you know? JOEL: But at the top level were all of these stores where you can get toy stores and clothing stores. And, and MJ, named after the greatest basketball player of all time. If you know, you know. Uh, MJ is super into horses, and so she's like, "Daddy, I just want some horses." So I'm like, you know, girl dad, so I'm like, "Let's go get the, the toy store." JOEL: Go to the toy store, and I hear another dad and his daughter, probably 10 or 11, having a conversation. And all of a sudden, like I could hear the dad stumble a little bit because the daughter said, "Mm, Dad, can we look at that?" And I look over, and I'm kind of eavesdropping at this point, and I look over and I'm like, "What are they talking about?" JOEL: 'Cause the dad isn't responding with like, "Oh yeah, absolutely." He's kind of stumbling over his words, and she is pointing to the glass display, and on the front of the glass display is a Ouija board. JIM CRESS: Interesting. JOEL: Now, I wanna pause right now and just go like- ... what is it that, Lysa, you go, "Hmm," and Jim, you go, "Interesting." Like diagnose that for me a little bit. JIM: Well, I can tell you mine is growing up and hearing, in all fairness, sermons about the Ouija board, this is all pre-internet, and stories around it, and having some people that I knew that played with a Ouija board, and some of it came out, uh, it was very scary to me as a kid. JIM: And talking about their... They heard screams coming off the board. I mean, I'm not gonna go too far into that, but that's in my childhood, and boy, we were like, "Stay away from that at all costs." And even when I've gone to a toy store like Toys R Us when it was in existence, and then there are all these toys and pla- And I remember there it was right in Toys R Us. JIM: And, um, I thought, "Wow.” So just something that stirs up from childhood of feeling like it felt, um, felt not clean the Ouija board. LYSA: I think for me is that it is presented as a toy, like all fun and games, but it really is opening the door of potential for the demonic to come in. JOEL: Yeah. LYSA: And I don't want to take it to the point where I'm like, "Oh, it's the devil," you know? But I think we have to be really, really cautious when we mess with things that open up Pandora's Box when it comes to the spiritual realm. And, you know, we... I think the Bible makes it crystal clear. There is a spiritual realm, and we need to be wise, make wise choices. JOEL: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, I remember thinking in that moment, "Oh, we're not talking about, like, the dark corners of some hallway where there's, like, witchcraft and Wiccan stuff." Like, we're talking about the glass display of a major toy store, and the question is not, are these things going to impact us? It's actually, they are impacting us, and the enemy loves to work in ways of deception. JOEL: Um, there's an incredible quote by C.S. Lewis, and I actually open my book The Unseen Battle with this quote. And I think it's gonna be a helpful kind of guidepost for us in our discussion. Lewis, I'll kind of paraphrase what, paraphrase what he says. He says that the dark powers, and this is from his book Screwtape Letters, they're equally, um, pleased with one of two outcomes. JOEL: One is an absolute obsession of the supernatural realm. Right? It's like around every corner is a demon. Around, around every evil there's some kind of spiritual entity behind it. But the opposite is also true, that they're absolutely pleased with what he refers to as a materialist or, um, a person who acts in total ignorance, as if there is no such thing as spiritual forces out there or a spiritual realm. JOEL: Um, and so what we wanna pursue in this season is discernment, where we can be able to see the difference between obsession and also neglect. And with honest awareness through the Word of God, the Spirit of God, and the people of God, we're able to see the schemes of the enemy himself and, um, what he's doing. JOEL: And so, um, I wanna start with a kind of paradigm that takes place throughout the Bible, and the paradigm is this: see, desire, and take. Because we wanna be super practical. If you go through Genesis 3 and Genesis 6 and Genesis 11, one of the things that you'll notice that the enemy loves to do is to play on our human desires. JOEL: So think about Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Um, here's the fruit. It's good, and it's pleasing, so you see it. You desire the fruit, right? It has a promise for you, but then you take it. And it's when you take it that things can become incredibly disastrous for you because God actually has a different plan, uh, and path for you. JOEL: The same thing happens in Genesis 6 and in Genesis 11. But Jim, when it comes to this idea of see, desire, and take, you have a lot of people that you're working with on a daily basis that have different levels of, um, just chaos that is happening inside of their life, and it would be super easy to over-spiritualize all of this and to just throw it away as, "Well, you know, you just gotta pray more," or, "You gotta fast more." JOEL: And it's not that we shouldn't consider those things, but there's more that's going on. How does that idea of seeing and desiring lead to chaos, specifically in spiritual warfare? JIM: Well, I, as you both know, I'm gonna encounter spiritual warfare in my, uh, counseling practice a lot. I'm no longer surprised by it. JIM: When I look at see, desire, and take, the idea is I say, okay, I get, like, level one from the therapy side. You're going to see things. You're gonna see things you want, and things maybe also that you don't want. And the idea that I don't think that's often the problem. There's a longing inside of us of something I want, but as soon as I go to desire, thinking as we all know that Greek word epithumia for lust and desire and context will give us the, the, uh, the overall meaning of that, which way we're going is there is a desire that the desire moves from a desire into a demand. JIM: I will have that. And I think Genesis 3, in life and in the therapy office, is repeated time and time again. I see that as, okay, why... God knew we would desire that. So that, and when you look around the realm of addictions or compulsions that people live out, is I want that, and then what happens is the idea that the person is then moving into something maybe without even knowing what they're moving into, and then they go to take. JIM: Which, for me, I've seen people in, in, uh, the AA program, and Chaz knows this so well, Lysa's husband, but there's a, the line that says, "The man takes the drink, then the drink takes the man." So I've seen that with sin, with compulsions or addictions, that after a while, that desire moves from a longing or desire to a lust. JIM: And epithumia means an empty cup. My cup is fill, is full, needing to be full of Jesus ... and what God's provided. And I'll say your temptation feels the emptiness of the cup. Lust will try to fill the emptiness of the cup, minus God. And when I take things, back to that AA quote, it in the end will take me. JOEL: Yeah, that's so good. Um, w- you know, we're really talking about spiritual discernment in a broken world. That's really the, the crux of all this, is there's a sense of brokenness. It's the, the reason why somebody might be drawn towards a Ouija board of saying, "I just need answers for the, the chaos and, of, of creation. I just want help." LYSA: Or that I need to be able to look into the future so that I can better prepare today for what might be coming tomorrow. JOEL: Yeah. Lysa, you know, when it comes to spiritual discernment particularly, um, I have a question for you, and definitely for you as well, Jim. I've heard people say directly to you before, "Well, Lysa, you know, all the things that you've really walked through, you've got a bigger bullseye on your back because of what you do in ministry and what, um, you know, the calling that the Lord has, uh, on your life." JOEL: How do you navigate spiritual discernment, and how do you parse between, "Wait a minute, there is a reality to what the Lord has called me to," but then there's also just sin and suffering- and human people that let us down? LYSA: Well, I think we have to start with the character of God and the nature of God and the nurture of God because sometimes we can start with the spiritual realm, the dark, evil forces. LYSA: But for me, it's always important to start and make the lens that I look through the character of God, the nature of God, and the nurture of God. And so when people say to me, like, "Wow, Lysa, you have suffered a lot of attack because you've been in ministry," you know, I've wrestled with that statement. I've thought through that statement. LYSA: I've prayed through that statement, and here's where I have landed. I don't think that I get an unusual amount of attack because I'm in ministry. I think, starting with God, I think God saw what I would go through, and in His gracious nature, in His kindness, in His mercy, which are part of His character, in His love, which is the nurture, I think out of all of that, God saw what I was gonna go through and put me in ministry so that my full-time job was to study God's Word, knowing that I was gonna go through this horrific season, and how good of God to do that. LYSA: So I also want us to be careful. We don't need to ignore the enemy, but I'm always careful to say, don't make the, don't give the enemy too much credit because in the midst of his scheming, you know, he, he is crafty, the enemy- but he's not creative. And he has very specific schemes that he repeats over and over and over. LYSA: He sets up systems through which he can operate. The enemy is not omnipresent. God is omnipresent. God is all places all time. The enemy is not. So when we say like, "Ooh, the devil did this to me," or, "The devil is attacking me," I do think that there's evil forces or evil realm at play, but the devil himself most likely is probably not right there attacking. LYSA: Um, I think he operates in those systems and strategies, and you've taught me this, Joel, and we've talked about it quite a bit. So I just think for me in that specific question, I wanna give God credit that it was out of his mercy and not that the devil somehow was so powerful to try to squish the ministry out of me by allowing me to go through this attack. LYSA: But rather in God's mercy, I have spent my life studying God's word, and God's word got in me. Had I not gone into ministry, I'm just gonna have a very honest moment here. Had I not gone into ministry- I don't think that I would have nearly the spiritual preparation and the amount of study that I've done, um, if, if I just, just did regular job, you know? LYSA: And that's not fun for me to admit, 'cause I'd love to be able to say, "Oh, no, I, I was so passionate about studying God's word all these years, you know, that I would have spent hours and hours and hours, even if ministry wasn't my full-time job," but I don't think that's true. I, I do think that I had an unusual preparation for the situations that I faced, and I'm grateful for that. JOEL: Yeah. I think that's such an important, um, aspect. And as we talk about spiritual discernment, one of the things that I want to emphasize is what you talked about, and you started to get into it a little bit, of the character and attributes of God. And then also, like, who are these dark forces, and what is this enemy? JOEL: And probably one of the things that you guys have noticed that I say consistently is the enemy or the dark forces or evil spiritual forces. Uh, I just... And I care about precision in language for all the reasons that you just said, Lysa. Uh, I think we give the devil way too much credit when we say, "Well, the devil did this, or the devil did that," or... JOEL: And it's kind of like the devil, this is not a yin and yang system that we're living in an Asian context where, uh, the devil is equal in power with Yahweh, and they're in this eternal kind of divine tug-of-war. JIM: Cosmic battle. JOEL: Exactly. Who's gonna win? We- That is not what is depicted in scripture. Yahweh is the uncreated creator. JOEL: He's the first cause of all things that are created, and these dark powers are created beings. And so just as a quick checklist, and if you're thinking about this and you wanna have the, like, a spiritual discernment checklist, here's a couple things that you can do. You can ask yourself, okay, what is, uh, systematic theologians refer to the incommunicable attributes of God? JOEL: These are things that are just unique to the character and nature of God. So what are those things? Um, his omniscience Uh, that he's all-knowing, his omnipresence, that he is in all places at all times, um, his omnipotence, his, his powerfulness. I mean, these are things that are unique of God. Uh, the enemy does not share in any of the incommunicable attributes. JOEL: Does the enemy have some level of power? Yes. Does the enemy have, um, capacity? Of course. But the enemy does not have total control or total power. That's something that's reserved only for Yahweh. And I think that if we're able to discern that, we can start to see the schemes of the enemy. And so Jim, this is one of the things that I wanna spend time, uh, kind of unpacking because for me, it's back to that see, desire, take. JOEL: It seems like because of the limited nature of the enemy in terms of their scope of ability, they have gotten really good over the course of history to work with the vices of the flesh. Um, and there are things in our culture today that are absolutely, uh, lures. My boys love fishing. Uh, you, you know that. JOEL: They've been to, you know, your house to go fishing, uh, at the pond, and, and, and they care about the bait that they use. And, and my son Levi the other day was like, "This bait isn't working, Dad. Like, this is the wrong thing." And he went out to the water, and I, I'm not joking with y'all, it was the wildest thing. JOEL: I sat there, and I watched this little brown boy out in the middle of the water, and he's just staring. And I'm worried. There's something wrong with my son. What is going on? Oh. And so I walk out, I'm like, "Levi, what's going on?" He goes, "Shh, Dad. Pay attention to the bugs that are out there." And I'm like, "Why?" JOEL: And he goes, "That's the kind of bait that we need. This is why it's not working." And I was like, "Huh?" And he walks me all the way back, and he goes into his tackle box, and he goes, "See, Dad, the bugs that were flying had wings that look like this, and the color pattern looked like this. I was using this bait that is totally different. The fish are not used to seeing that." JOEL: And he goes, "We need to mimic the food that the fish are used to eating and place that out, you know?" And I was like- Oh. Spiritual warfare JIM: That's incredible. JOEL: Like, this is the way that the enemy- JIM: Yeah JOEL: ... works today. Jim, what are those vices of the flesh that you think that we need to really be aware of, especially when it comes to discerning the spiritual moment of a broken world today? JIM: Some of these I know in modern culture will feel like, uh, low-hanging fruit, like classic pornography. Uh, it's coming at us, uh, as adults. Um, one of the high-rising stats a lot of people don't know is it'll never probably catch men, but one of the highest rising stats in pornography use for a long time are w- adult women, and now even adolescent girls using that. JIM: And with that, um, we all have our cell phones, right? And there's more capacity, uh, data-wise and storage than the Apollo 11 astronauts had. So we're carrying... Literally nobody needs to go out and find this stuff. It's literally... Even for young kids, you're giving them a cell phone. The average age of, of exposure to pornography for some of these young kids now is around four years old. JIM: And if I told you this, all you have to do is their little kid comes over, you don't let your kids have a phone, but their buddy at school does, and so it's coming at them, and they're being shown this at a very young age. And with all the neurochemical processes that go on, it's hooking these kids very, very early. JIM: And then moving to the adult as far as some of the, the vices, you know, the dilemma with pornography, different than many other drugs or possible addiction and agents of addiction, would be the pornography's accessible, it's anonymous, it's affordable, it's airbrushed, it's accelerated. People can get hooked that quick like they'd never been hooked or dabbled in it before, and now it's AI'd, right? JIM: There's AI around this. So there is a world that's going on that really like never before is coming at both children and adults at warp speed, and so they're getting overwhelmed before they know it. And no different, though, than alcohol or opiates or opioids or some of the drugs. The problem is, borrowing from scripture, that sin is enjoyable for a season. JIM: A problem that I'm never afraid of anymore is it works until it doesn't, or nobody would do that. So any of the vices that are out there are an attempt to usually assuage anxiety. Now, there's a neurochemical process where they could become addicted, but after a while the problem is, see, it works, and then we have what we call tolerance on every little addictive agent I've just mentioned, including pornography. JIM: This much used to do it, I need more, more, and the next thing you know, you're literally overwhelmed. And they thought they might just dabble with it a little bit, but it's taken them down further than they ever thought they would go. JOEL: So you're talking about a system that's being developed- JIM: Yeah JOEL: and it almost, um, being- cultivated in such a way to expand and create more chaos. For the person who just loves Jesus that says, "I am unsatisfied," like, "I don't want to fall into this trap"- um, Jim, what is, like, a therapeutic response? And then Lysa, what is, like, the lived biblical response that you'd wanna give people? JIM: First, awareness. I'm gonna come back to self-awareness, that this is a problem. You have to be aware because again, the body and the brain, they feel like, "All I know is it feels really good when I do this for a while." Awareness that they, they can literally become addicted to it, and then at that point it's not just this unilateral sin and choice. JIM: It's like they feel like they, they have no choice. And then Joel and Lysa, I'm always going to go to the word of God. There is so much in here. It's a virtual counseling manual. It's much more than that. And when I think of Jeremiah 2:18, which I use on a daily basis with people, to, to look in getting the vertical straight before we talk about the horizontal. JIM: The horizontal can be what do we do about, uh, treating addictions or compulsivity or whatever. In Jeremiah 2, uh, 13 God says in His word that, "My people have committed two sins." Now, that's not 50, that's two. I can get my head around that. What are the two sins? First, and you gotta get that thing right, number one, "They have forsaken me, the fountain of living water." JIM: Even though you may not realize you're doing it, there's a part of you that says somehow, "God, you're not a g- uh, enough." Oswald Chambers did put it this way, "I sin when I have the suspicion that God is not enough." Part two, sin number two. They don't just say, "God, you're not enough." But they look and say, "I will get a shovel and dig out..." JIM: It says, "Dig out a broken cistern, a hole in the ground that could hold water." But the problem with it, it's a broken cistern that can hold no water. So when I lived at the Salvation Army in Chattanooga, Tennessee with the alcoholics, I mean, I lived in inner city with them after college and saw the many v- uh, varieties of way they would try to drink alcohol, things that would totally blow your mind. JIM: And I realized there was that verse. I'm going over here to sip on money- muddy, dirty water after I've said, "God, you're not enough." And then with that ... is I say that G-O-D does not spell G-O-D, God on demand. Yeah. See, we're an on-demand society. I want it. Sin will show up on demand. I mean, you want it, you got it. JIM: But G-O-D doesn't stand for God on demand. So if I go vertical, whether I think I'm doing it or not and thinking, "God, you need to take..." Many men have said, "Take away my lust today. Take away my sexual desire, or take away this." And that's just not how it operates, how God operates. So getting the vertical cleared up, and then to look and say, what is the broken cistern? JIM: You'll get tired or, or it's gonna ruin your life with that dirty, muddy water, but it is available on demand. JOEL: Yeah. LYSA: Practically speaking, Jim, I've watched this in Chaz's life. Um, you know, he is 14 years sober. And it is so amazing to be with someone who has stayed consistent with kicking an addiction. LYSA: Now, all that said, at any time- In any place. If he doesn't practice and work his program, he could fall. And our, both of our eyes are wide open to that. But what I see in him that keeps him going vertical is he has healthy coping mechanisms now. You know, it used to be immediately you feel anxiety, you go and drink. LYSA: You feel emotional tension, go and drink. There's a conflict, go and drink. You're bored, go and drink. Now he has a whole protocol of what to do, and these are healthy coping mechanisms that draw him into the Lord instead of pulling him away from the Lord. You know, one of those is he gets in his boat and goes out on the water and spends time in nature, and that is such a godly grounding activity to him. LYSA: He can speak to the Lord. He sees the Lord in nature, and he knows to do that, and he does that several times a week. Another one is he goes to AA meetings, still, 14 years sober. JIM: Oh, yeah. LYSA: And he is still. I talked to him last night on the telephone. He'd been to an AA meeting, and he is just fascinated all afresh of what he learned at that meeting. LYSA: He goes to church. He's in the Word. He prays. He prays over us as a couple. You know, he's, he's surrounded himself with godly men who all have those same healthy coping mechanisms. Those aren't bulletproof, but if you practice it, you'll get better at it. And so he ... And then also he has friends to call. LYSA: He's got a list of friends who he knows at any given moment will jerk a knot in him, and if I see something concerning, I can call those friends. You know? JIM: That's good. LYSA: And that's really comforting as well. But here's what I think we need to remember is, like, we are gonna feel anxiety. We are gonna feel anger. LYSA: We are gonna feel that hunger or that desperation sometimes. You know, and the Word makes it really clear. In Ephesians chapter 4, um, verse 26, it says, "In your anger..." It doesn't say, "If you have anger.". It says, "In your anger." as, you know, that, that's implied, that you will have times where you are in anger. LYSA: In your anger, do not sin. Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold. You know, it's so crystal clear there that if you sit in that anger and you don't turn to the Lord, you will eventually turn away from the Lord. There's just one or the other. Like for Chaz, I know he's either in recovery or relapse. LYSA: There's no in between. JOEL: Wow. LYSA: Then you go on, uh, back, you know, we love studying Genesis. We have studied Genesis so many hours. Yep. Um, but you go back to the Cain and Abel story. This is that law of first mention. The first time we see someone have anger that goes unattended. So the Lord addresses it, and I know you have some things to say about this, so I'll turn it over to you to dig us a little deeper into the theology. LYSA: But here's my observation. It, it goes on to explain how Cain and Abel, it's the first sibling rivalry. Abel brings an offering to the Lord, it's acceptable. Cain brings an offering to the Lord, it is not acceptable. We could do many shows on unpacking that, but for the sake of time, we won't today. But when the Lord does not accept Cain's offering, the scripture says that his face was downcast. LYSA: He was very angry. Then the Lord- comes and has a personal conversation with Cain JOEL: It was wild. Yeah. LYSA: Now, let me just say something. If the Lord came and had a personal conversation with me about a situation, I would hope that would jerk a knot in me so quickly that I would absolutely be obedient. But this says that the Lord came to Cain and said, "Why are you so angry? LYSA: Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? If you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door." Sin. The sin- JIM: Sure. JIM: Yep LYSA: ... is crouching at your door. It desires to have you, but you must rule over it. So I think sometimes we talk, like, so ethereal when it comes to the spiritual realm, and this brings it right down on the ground. LYSA: Like, you're angry. You don't tend to that anger. It's no joke. Sin is crouching at your door. It desires to have you. It desires to entice you and drag you away. What, what book of the Bible is this verse in? I think it's in maybe James. But the sin is, is enticing you. It's meant to drag you away. LYSA: And the scripture says, "Devour you." And so God is saying, "You must rule over it." Well, how do you rule over something that's in the spiritual realm? You use the battle, you, the, the weapons of battle in the spiritual realm to combat that. JOEL: Yeah, yeah. I think this is so important, Lysa, because it once again shows us that, back to how we started the conversation with the C.S. Lewis quote, that we have to avoid obsession and also pure neglect. And, and here in the Cain and Abel story, right off the get, like the very first spiritual conflict is a byproduct of earthly jealousy, which is just a wild thing to think that. And then we've been talking a lot about the role of the enemy, the role of the enemy. JOEL: What does the enemy do? How does the enemy come? How does he deceive? What does that g- what does that look like? But notice what happens in the Cain and Abel story. God speaks. God speaks. God speaks directly to Cain. God gives him an out. He says, "Hey, by the way, it doesn't have to go this way." That, that phrase that he, um, his face fell or that, um, he was downcast, that's a Hebrew idiom for anxiety. JOEL: Uh, Jim, this is a mental health crisis. JIM: Yeah. JOEL: Right? Like, he's actually strugg- struggling with mental anguish, and then the very next line is, "And sin is crouching at the door. It is waiting to devour you." And the language is poetic language to talk about the nature of sin. The, the language of crouching is the same image of a lion or a, a predatory animal that waits patiently, right? JOEL: A- and w- this is, we're a little bit allergic to this idea 'cause we live in an urgent society. We want everything when we want it, but I think it would help us in our spiritual discernment to recognize that we're dealing with an enemy that is happy to wait patiently for us to be weak and vulnerable and to opt for the vices of the flesh, which is the perfect opportunity to pounce, right? JOEL: And then here's Yahweh the entire time saying, "Hey, by the way, there's a way out." You do not, not only do you not have to, you must rule over it. And here's how you get out of it, and then is the Ephesians passage, which gives us, like, the navigation of spiritual discernment. Um, one of the things that I love about what we get to do here at Proverbs 31 Ministries is that we have incredible resources, and, um, this is a study guide with the First 5 App. JOEL: Uh, it's one of the projects that I love that I get to personally work on, Lysa and Jim. And, um, this study guide is called Between Heaven and Here. By the way, our design team is epic. I mean- JIM: We love it JOEL: ... just kind of gorgeous, right? Um, but there's a section in here, and I got the chance to actually work on this and to help write some of this study. JOEL: But I wanna talk, um, and read through what the study guide actually talks about in terms of, uh, distinguishing between spiritual discernment and over-spiritualization. I wanna talk about spiritual bypass for a little bit, but let's read this. It says, "Scripture reminds us that discernment or good judgment," which I love that phrase, "is the ability to see people and situations as they really are with a God-aligned perspective," Psalm 119:66. JOEL: "Discernment is not driven by fear or speculation, but shaped by God's truth and guided by His Spirit." We're called to test all things by holding them up to God's word, to grow in maturity as those whose senses have been trained to distinguish between good and evil.” That's Hebrews 5:14. “And to rely on the spirit of truth who will guide you into all the truth.” JOEL: And then there's a list here that gives us, um, what spiritual discernment is marked by, but then what over-spiritualization is marked by. Before I get into this list, which is how I want us to end our time together, I wanna talk a little bit about spiritual bypassing. And Lysa, y- I... There's a story that just is stuck in my head about a moment where, you know, I'm gonna let you tell the story. You already know. LYSA: Okay. So basically, I was in a therapy group. I went to a week-long intensive and, um, I had a Christian therapist, but not everyone in my group was a Christian. And so one day we were talking about coping mechanisms, you know, what do you do when you feel like you can't handle what you now have to handle? LYSA: And I was fascinated to hear all the coping mechanisms that people turn to. Now, these were unhealthy coping mechanisms, but, um, I, I was like, oh, wow, maybe that's why I'm so stressed out, 'cause I never knew any of these things were an option, right? But they were talking about, you know, that they were... Some were addicted to drugs. LYSA: Some, there was a girl that was addicted to Netflix. Like, she literally didn't go to work anymore. She just was in her bed watching Netflix all the time. Um, and then there were a few guys that it was pornography. And so they went around the room, and I was like, oh, no, it's about to be my turn. And I, I was like, okay, do I just make up a story like, yeah LYSA: like I, I have this terrible addiction to this drug or whatever. But then I thought, I don't know the language, so I can't. Like, they're gonna sniff out that I'm lying. JIM: They say if you spot it, you got it, so they would've sniffed it out. LYSA: Right. And so, but I'm panicked because I'm like, "I have to have an answer. I have to have an answer. I have to have an answer." And then it became my turn, and I just looked at the therapist and then said, "I don't think I have an unhealthy coping mechanism. Like I, I, I... Maybe that's part of my problem," you know? And she looks at me and she goes, "Yes, you do." And I was like, "Really?" And she goes, "Yeah." LYSA: She goes, "Do you wanna know what it is?" And I was like, "Absolutely." And she said, "You hyper-spiritualize everything." "Instead of working through things, you just quickly go grab a Bible verse, slap it on, and you ignore the underneath work that needs to be done. You're actually ignoring the healing. You're ignoring the sanctification. You're ignoring the maturing process." LYSA: "And you're just putting a Bible verse basically like let go and let God and just turn a corner and say, 'Okay, I'm better now.'" And she was right. I didn't wanna admit that she was right, but she was right And so that's my story. JOEL: Jimbo? LYSA: I love the awareness of that because I was literally thinking, did you get angry, but said nah when she said that? JIM: 'Cause I know the person you're talking about, I'm pretty sure. And that insightful thing, uh, I have found you, uh, I've just found you very open to things. You have this wonderful thing, and you said it public or I wouldn't be saying it here. Even in work we've had the privilege of doing together, where I might hypothesize something and you would hit it, like, and push back or think I was high, you've said, or think I was crazy. JIM: But it's very, very short half-life, very short moment before you're like going, "Okay, well let me at least try that and examine it." So I wondered, like, in that group if you're like, "Huh, really? Maybe." But then that's how it should be, that you would think, "Let me think about that," versus you had, "I could just go in and be fake and say, 'Well, I got an addiction. I'll just make one up.'" Or to say, to push back hard. JIM: So you sound like that something broke through to you in that moment, which is, to me, one of the great parts of therapy, and you were like, "You know, maybe I'll think about that." Is that kinda how it happened? LYSA: Yeah, at first I was like, "Uh, how could that be unhealthy?" JIM: You needed a moment. LYSA: Yeah, because I'm like, isn't it healthy to have scripture memorized and apply a scripture to something, and isn't it healthy to move on and move past it, and all of that? And what she helped me understand is, yes, scripture is important, yes, it is the truth that sets you free, and, yes, you need to walk through the process of unpacking and working through what you're walking through. LYSA: And the Lord has that all over. You know, when it says, "Consider it pure joy, my brothers, my sisters, when you face trials of many kinds," right? Because that pressure, that, that hardship, it's gonna produce something. It produces endurance, and endurance must finish its work so that you can be made, not instantly, but in the process of being made, mature, complete, not lacking anything. LYSA: And so scripture allows the space for- JIM: That is so good LYSA: ... absolutely the power of God's word, but also the o- the space to really work through these things. JOEL: That's so good, Lysa and Jim. Um, as we wrap up our time together, uh, I just wanna reemphasize how important spiritual discernment is, and one of the things that you've heard both from Lysa and from Jim is that spiritual discernment is not just like a light switch that you turn on and say, "I've got it." JOEL: It's a byproduct of... The way I like to think about it is, uh, and I'm ripping off of Eugene Peterson, the brilliant, um, uh, Semitic languages scholar who paraphrased the Bible into The Message, where he wrote a book called The Long Obedience- It was in that direction. Yeah. And discernment is a long obedience following Jesus, being led by the Spirit of God, being submitted to the word of God, and an accountability with the people of God. JOEL: Um, there's a brilliant, uh, pastor by the name of Charles Spurgeon, and Spurgeon once defined discernment this way. He said, "Discernment isn't simply, uh, telling- Between right and wrong. He said, "Discernment is the identification between what is right and what is almost right." JOEL: Um, and so I wanna leave that with all of you as you cultivate the spiritual act of discernment. And you might be wondering, okay, how do I know? Like, what is a checklist? I wanna give you this checklist on what spiritual discernment is marked by versus what over-spiritualizing looks like, and maybe this could be just a really great way for you to take this checklist, go with a couple girlfriends or, um, some people in your small group. JOEL: Uh, you can pick up a copy of the study guide, and you can just have an honest discussion about the areas of your life where you might say, "I might be spiritually bypassing," or, "This is an area that I'm actually doing really well in," and you can celebrate that. Um, so here's what spiritual discernment is marked by. JOEL: It's marked by growing clarity, not confusion. But here's what over-spiritualization looks like. It's when you start to blame all your struggles on the demonic. Discernment, peace, not anxious fear. Spiritual bypass, interpreting all hardship as direct spiritual attack. Discernment, humility, not obsession with answers. JOEL: Spiritual bypass, avoid personal accountability in favor of spiritual explanations or even excuses. Discernment, a stronger focus on Jesus, not the enemy. Spiritual bypass, use spiritual language to dodge responsibility. Spiritual discernment, a greater love for God and for people. Over-spiritualizing, spiritual bypass, use spiritual language to dodge responsibility. JOEL: Woo. Discernment, repentance where needed. Over-spiritualizing, give our fears more power than our truth. Discernment, hope in God, not ourselves. Spiritual bypass, live in a state of scanning for the enemy instead of resting in Christ. And I love the last one. Discernment draws us closer to Christ. It produces freedom, not fixation. JOEL: Over-spiritualization tends to magnify spiritual threats, yet minimize God. Discernment does the opposite. I really hope that this episode was both encouraging for you and also equipping, that you might be able to recognize the schemes of the enemy but also have a deep confidence in the goodness of God and the victory of Jesus who defeated sin and death through death itself. JOEL: We'll see you for the next episode, which I'm actually really excited about, 'cause we're gonna talk about a passage of scripture that you've probably heard preached and taught a lot about, but I believe we're gonna have a really great kinda conversation around the armor of God and how to practically live out the battle of spiritual warfare. JOEL: And now it's time for my favorite segment, Listener Mail, where we respond to your questions. Today's Listener Mail is brought to you by Compassion International, which I'm so excited to tell you more about. Compassion is fighting child poverty in powerful and practical ways through the work of local churches and the generosity of sponsors like you and me. JOEL: Compassion is releasing children from poverty in Jesus' name. We've seen the impact of sponsorship firsthand through education, medical care, healthy food, clean water, and the love and the hope of the gospel. And now we wanna invite you to join us in sponsoring a child. When you sponsor, you'll receive a copy of the Proverbs 31 Ministries study guide titled Keep Holding On as our thanks for investing in the life of a child. JOEL: You can go to compassion.com\lysa, L-Y-S-A, to choose a child to sponsor today Okay, friends, let's hear today's question. This listener asked, "Where did Jesus go on Saturday after he died on the cross?" And honestly, here's how I would answer that. This is one of those questions that I'm so glad that you're asking. JOEL: It's a question that I think many people have asked, especially as we're celebrating Easter, and we're wondering, like, what actually happens on this day that many churches and church history has referred to as Silent Saturday. Well, part of what we need to do is create a clear distinction between the Hebrew understanding of the underworld and of death and what Jesus talks about in the New Testament. JOEL: For example, in the Hebraic understanding of the Old Testament, when the righteous dead of the Old Testament died, they went to this place called Sheol. It was the underworld. Now, Sheol was split into two categories. One location, which is where the righteous dead of the Old Testament went, think of the patriarchs, um, Isaac, Jacob, Abraham, those folks. JOEL: But then also, there was a place for the unrighteous dead to go, those that did not follow the ways of Yahweh and were wicked. This was come to understood as the depths of Hades. It was a different location. When Jesus comes in the incarnation, there is not an ounce of humanity that Jesus does not submit to and he's faithful into. JOEL: For instance, when Jesus goes to the cross, we have to ask ourselves this question: Did he bypass the consequence of death? And we would all say, "No, he didn't." Jesus was faithful in every way, which means that Jesus would have submitted himself even to the consequence of death. But where did Jesus go, and what happened? JOEL: His earthly body obviously was in a grave, but where did he go spiritually? So this is where theologians would create a distinction between Gehenna, which is what the New Testament refers to as the final place of judgment and destruction, versus Hades or Sheol, the underworld. Jesus would have gone where the righteous dead of the Old Testament would have gone. JOEL: And why did he go there? He went there proclaiming his victory, the fact that he has conquered sin and death, and he tore down the gates of Hades, and he led the righteous dead of the Old Testament up and into paradise, into the Edenic Garden with him, and this actually helps us explain a passage like Hebrews 12 and 13. JOEL: You've got the great cloud of witnesses. Now, I've said a lot, and you're probably wondering, Joel, I need some scripture to back this up. So I've got you. Uh, in Acts chapter 2, Peter begins to give this incredible sermon, and he quotes David as David is actually talking about Jesus. And what does Peter say about this quote? JOEL: He says, and, uh, I'm reading from Acts 2:27, as David is kind of witnessing and, uh, pointing to Jesus, he says, "Because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead." You will not let your Holy One see decay. And then later, the apostle Paul, as he writes to the church in Ephesus, he says in Ephesians 4:3, "But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it." JOEL: And then verse eight says this: "This is why it says: 'When he ascended on high, he took many captives and he gave gifts to his people.' What does he ascended mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly region? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe." JOEL: Uh, this helps us understand what's actually ta- taking place on Silent Saturday. I would just wanna make a very clear statement, though. Jesus did not go to hell on Silent Saturday. Jesus went to the place where all the righteous dead would have gone, and he did an amazing rescue mission. And this is the victorious Jesus that we celebrate on Sunday for Easter.