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47 - The Moment CEOs Realize Their Company Is Too Complicated · The Breakout CEO

0:00
We should be known for something by now.
0:01
I think I had 11 different things.
0:03
I was like kind of becoming known for it.
0:05
I think it's probably time to hire a CEO because I'm no CEO.
0:08
I'm a founder,
0:08
and it takes a lot of self-discipline to be willing to say no to those things.
0:11
Welcome back, everybody, to the breakout CEO podcast.
0:14
I'm your host, Jeff Holeman, and I'm here with Alex Sanfilippo.
0:18
Alex, it's so good to have you on the show.
0:21
Jeff, I'm really excited to be here.
0:22
Thank you so much for having me, man.
0:24
Yeah, of course.
0:25
And I have to say,
0:26
you have one of the easy I don't know if it's the easiest.
0:29
It seems easy.
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The background that you've got just makes it very consistent.
0:35
Very easy.
0:36
To identify you not, you know, face, of course, works, but, like,
0:40
you just got this kind of iconic look to you. What's.
0:42
How'd you come up with that, man? So,
0:46
it wasn't it wasn't fully intentional.
0:48
First off, I'm a really simple individual, so, like, what you see is what you get.
0:51
Like, I just have a background with some LEDs hitting it.
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It's just my my wall and also my walls.
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My house are empty. I'm.
0:57
I'm borderline minimalist and I'm thankful my wife is actually okay with that.
1:01
So like, this is just kind of my personality.
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It fits really well.
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However, I will everyone see something different here?
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When I look at my background behind me, I see purple because that's
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like one of our brand colors.
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When I look at the computer, I see blue.
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What color do you see right now?
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It's, in between.
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I think I would call it I would call it,
1:22
a little bit warmer blue.
1:24
Okay. Which I guess makes it kind of purple.
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It's it's a it's, it's not a light blue.
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It's more of a warmer blue.
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Okay. I can say it that way.
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So I ask, when it debut debuted on a zoom call, that guy was over
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90 people on the zoom call, and people were like, whoa, look at Alex.
1:41
Someone said this on the screen. They said, well, look.
1:42
And also the new cool blue background and someone else
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goes, it's not a blue background, it's purple.
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And then this whole like argument started and I was like,
1:48
I guess this is my life now. Like, I'm not going to change it.
1:51
So was the the gold dress or the what were what was that thing?
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That was it was ahead of you right there.
1:57
The whole dress thing, it's similar to it felt like that.
2:00
And so I'm kind of stuck with it now. But it's okay.
2:02
This is again, it fits my personality really well.
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And I've been I've enjoyed having a really simple, just podcasting work.
2:08
Well, I wasn't going to ask this, but this leads me into the next question.
2:11
Pretty, pretty well because now I'm curious.
2:14
Do you you're a you're a simple guy.
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You're, you know, clean, clean cut, clean wall, all that stuff
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is that is that
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like, representative of how you run your business?
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I like to think so.
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Sometimes I actually do.
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I will admit, initially, I overcomplicate things
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like the first iteration of anything new I'm trying to do.
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I definitely, like, overcomplicate it in my mind.
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And my other two co-founders ones, my wife,
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the other one's a longtime friend of mine.
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But, the three of us, I tell them like,
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hey, just so you'll know, like the first version of something
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I'm pitching to y'all is going to be overly complicated.
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But in general, I always do my best to tell them,
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hey, just know I'm going to get it more simple. Encourage me to do that.
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And we do our best just to literally just keep everything simple.
2:56
And so for
2:57
I think that the way that I live my personal life is reflected
3:00
in the business and vice versa.
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So I try to keep the complexity out of it.
3:04
And I've gone a little bit extreme, I will admit.
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Like, the color I'm wearing is kind of like a,
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I don't know, like an off gray type color, like a very light gray.
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This is the same color to me.
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Shirt I own is I think I have 15 of them.
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They all have different logos on them, but they're all I think there's 15 of them.
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I had made and I.
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So I'm very simple.
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It's funny, like if you go into my closet, be like, this is all you own.
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It's like, yeah, this just just kind of kind of keep it simple.
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And same with business.
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Like I don't have a whole lot of things that I do like.
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I run my business
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and I don't have like all the little side hustles
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and all the little add ons and stuff like that, and just
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I enjoy life that way and I enjoy business that way.
3:39
I can wrap my head around it really well.
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So it's kind of been the flow I've maintained all the way through.
3:44
Well, I think I articulated something that a lot of business owners
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go through, right?
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Because you launch the business, you're like, I could do this, I could do this.
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In fact, many business owners don't have the restraint you do.
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And they in fact, try to add on all those other things on top of their business.
3:56
Right.
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And, and that becomes, kind of a mess in a lot of different ways.
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Some of them I've seen and some of them I tried to help clean up before, but,
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but that becomes a mess a different way.
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It takes a lot of work, though, to simplify a business to the point
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where it's easy.
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Right.
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And I look at that from a from my background in law.
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And I've had clients say, wait a second, this is all you did.
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You charge me how much? And this is what you did.
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And I say, you don't know the path it took to get this simple.
4:26
What was it?
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Was it Mark Twain?
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What was his saying?
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You know, if you if you want me to,
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Gosh, I can't remember something about writing a long letter.
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If you want to write a short letter, give me ten hours or something.
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Like I think it was.
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If you want me to talk for for four hours, I can prep it in five minutes.
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If you only talk for five minutes, I need four hours to prep. So.
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Yeah, something along those. Yeah. And the idea is like it's.
4:48
Yeah, it's.
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I like what Leonardo da Vinci says.
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And it's this, that, simplicity is the ultimate form of sophistication.
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And I have seen that through and through my business, in my life.
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But I don't want to sound like I've always gotten it right.
5:00
There was a time, Jeff, where I was actually,
5:02
I was at a podcasting conference.
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Because, again, that's all I do, right?
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I was there and somebody it was like kind of a Q&A thing
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and someone's like, hey, Alex, I have just one question.
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Like, I don't know what you do.
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You seem to do so much. I'm really confused.
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I watch more than half the room nod when she said that, and I was like, oh no.
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Like, even though everything I was doing
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was in podcasting, I had I think I had 11 different things.
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I was like kind of becoming known for like courses.
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This everything on its own name, its own brand had books
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and kind of like all these different things that, again, had their own name.
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And that's when I realized it
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like, oh, I've, I've gone from wanting to do something really simple
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to now
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overcomplicating it, muddying the water because I just started adding
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so many things. Now I still do. Most of things.
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Some of them
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I cut out completely, but I just now do them all under my company pod match.
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We do all under that umbrella, all inside of it.
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So there's no confusion.
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It's all just part of the service that we offer.
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So I don't want to try to make it sound like I've always gotten this right.
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Like I've had to learn this.
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And as I've learned it in business, as I've learned my personal life,
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I let one influence the other along the way.
6:01
Yeah, that makes sense. How long ago was that?
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When when they asked that question of you, that was 2022
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and my goal was within one year to fix that.
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I'm almost there.
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So it's still been it's been multiple years now, many years.
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But, I'm still working toward simplifying all the time.
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And I'm getting real close to where I feel like I'm kind of like
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the golden standard of it, but I'm.
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I'm a work in progress, like all of us.
6:22
Well, and when when did you start Pod Match relative to that one match launched?
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June 15th, 2020 was our first day.
6:30
Okay, so it'd been it'd been there.
6:32
You've been running your business
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for a couple of years, and someone said to you, wait, what is it you do?
6:38
Yeah.
6:38
Like, right. You're like, I have a business.
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Of course I have other businesses too, but I.
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I have this business, and, like,
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that kind of hits you and you're like, wait a second, right?
6:48
Yeah.
6:48
It's the interesting thing is it's not like I set out to, to confuse or to.
6:54
Right.
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And I wasn't trying to like,
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become famous is just when someone talks to you,
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they're like, oh, Alex, you should do this. You're really good at it.
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And then you're like, oh, wait, I am good at that. I'll do that. Right?
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And just started responding to everything and especially when you first start
7:06
a business, you need to talk to the people that you're serving,
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but you also have to have some some discernment, some wisdom
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to understand, like what to actually act upon.
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And I basically listened to every bit of feedback
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and just implemented everything that I possibly could.
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I was doing this pod match thing full time within six months of starting it.
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And so for me, I was like, I've got some capacity,
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I've got some time with the company small.
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And so I just started becoming all things to all people.
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As long as it was, it was in podcasting.
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But now I've realized, like, I don't want to be that.
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I want to be this, this one person that does this one thing
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for people in podcasting, I know people who do the rest, but it's not me anymore.
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And but at first I fell in that temptation of
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just being like, yeah, I'll do that for you.
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Yeah, I'll do that too.
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And it takes a lot of
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it takes a lot of self-discipline to be willing to say no to those things.
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Well, a lot of early stage founders or early founders, you don't know
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if you've nailed your business model yet.
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So there is this exploration of what feels like tangential services or products.
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And maybe we should add this and we'll then we'll maybe that's where
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we'll actually build our, our businesses around the, the next product or
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so there's that feature creep.
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There's the exploration.
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There's, you know, kind of perpetual pivot mode.
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I don't, you know, any of those.
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But you had you had co-founders, when you started this, right?
8:16
Yeah, I still do. Yep. The same three of us. Yep.
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How did your co-founders feel like?
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Would they have said the same thing, like.
8:22
Well, Alex, we've been meaning to tell you, you're a little you're a little,
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you know, scattered in this, or was it just a function of the business?
8:30
That's how it was operating and growing.
8:32
Yeah.
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It was like, as you mentioned,
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early stage, like you don't really know what's going to stick.
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We were very much so in that boat between the three of us.
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And so I knew a lot about podcasting.
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We started my wife knew a lot about operations,
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but not a lot about podcasting.
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And my other co-founder, who's the technical guy,
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builds out the software and stuff like that.
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He knows literally nothing about podcasting to now he does.
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But he didn't. He didn't at that point.
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And so they were I was like, hey, we just got to see what we can make work.
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And the thing is, the company was it was growing and it did it.
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It actually helped for a time until we hit the point where, like,
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we kind of found our product market fit, right?
9:04
We we found that lane that we should be in.
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But I was all over the place.
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And so at that point, it was first an internal commitment to them saying,
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hey y'all, I'm going to I'm going to streamline what I do here to narrow it in.
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I'm going to stop a bunch of things
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and we're gonna look at what's profitable, what's bringing in business,
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what's actually serving people at the highest level.
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If it's not doing those things, I'm going to start cutting it in and removing it.
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And so it's one of those things where they didn't bring it up.
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I actually brought up to them first
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after hearing someone say, I'm confused about what you do.
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That was really like the thing that tipped me over the edge to be like,
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oh, it's time to it's time to hone in because we should be known
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for something by now, not just being a guy.
9:37
You can handle anything in the podcasting space.
9:39
Yeah, that's that's really interesting. I think.
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I think it's a familiar trajectory.
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Let's pause there though, because I don't know.
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We've told people at pod matches, I'm actually, a user of Pod match.
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I've been on it for, I think, over a year now.
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I don't know, I just started my podcasting journey
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as a guest and I'm like, I got to be on a podcast
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and I did a bunch of that, and I'm like, where's the
10:00
how do you find host to host you?
10:02
Oh, there's this awesome platform called Pod Match.
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Some guy named Alex has created it and it's and it's what I started
10:09
using to find hosts that wanted guests
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that, you know, we're speaking about the topic they speak about.
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And then and then I was I, I actually signed up for
10:18
I think you have a combined plan host and guest and I signed up for both.
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I'll let you explain
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what it is in a minute, but I signed up for both because I thought
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I might start my own podcast later.
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We'll see what happens.
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And in fact, you know, I did so.
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But tell the audience what pod matches and, you know, kind of the basics
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of what it does for the community, because I think it really is.
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I have to sorry, I have to add this.
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I think it really is not just a platform.
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I think what you're building is, is as much a community as it is a platform.
10:46
Yeah. Thank you for that, Jeff.
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I really appreciate it. Thanks for being part of Pod Match.
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For everyone who's like, okay, what is this pod match thing?
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The website is Pod Match.com,
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and it's a service that connects podcast guests and hosts for interviews.
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We use an algorithms I the stuff that we've actually built
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to basically connect the right people together.
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So like Jeff and I matched,
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I should say the breakout CEO and Alex Sanfilippo matched on pod match,
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given my expertise and what Jeff says, hey, this is what the breakout
11:11
CEO is looking for, right?
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So we're able to make that connection in the system.
11:14
The whole idea is to streamline that process and for lack of better term.
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Listen, I've been married too long to be on a dating app,
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but for lack of better term, it works very similar to a dating app.
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But instead of can you for data connection for podcast interviews
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and on the platform you can message back and forth.
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You can schedule.
11:27
You never have to exchange an email if you don't want to.
11:29
You can handle it all literally right there.
11:30
And that was the idea.
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Let's let's remove
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the friction involved and bring the right people together
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and help them to get to the actual recording studio,
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whether it be in person or virtual, faster,
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so that ultimately listeners could be served at a
11:40
at a higher level without all the again, all the friction
11:42
that's involved behind the scenes that most people don't see.
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And so that's, that's the big problem that we serve in the podcasting industry.
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And that's been my sole focus for for years now.
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And I've gotten better and better making that my only focus.
11:53
But thanks for your opportunity to talk about that, Jeff I appreciate it.
11:55
Yeah. Well, it's a it's a fantastic tool.
11:57
Those of people who are listening to this thinking, I'd like to be a guest.
12:00
Go check out Pod Match, create an account and sign up.
12:02
It's it's easy and it's a great it's a great platform.
12:05
It really is I, I don't just say that because you're sitting here,
12:07
you know, with me on my show, like it's a great platform.
12:10
I've been using it long before I got to know you, although I was
12:13
I very glad to get to know you through the platform and LinkedIn and other places.
12:16
So yeah, thank you for that.
12:18
Matt means a ton I appreciate you.
12:19
Yeah, yeah, I know of no worries.
12:22
I wanted to touch on if you if you don't mind.
12:25
A few weeks ago it was either on Facebook or on LinkedIn.
12:29
I noticed that you said something.
12:30
You were kind of pulling out the the what do we call it?
12:34
Vulnerability. Right? That's what this we call it these days.
12:37
And you said, man, I don't know what's going on.
12:39
I'm going to paraphrase.
12:39
I'm going to get it wrong.
12:40
Ask my wife if I know how to paraphrase correctly, and she'll tell you I don't.
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So but I'm going to do my version of paraphrasing.
12:46
And and that was something like, man,
12:49
I'm building this platform, but some days I just, I can't please everybody.
12:53
I got people that are complaining and people that are, you know,
12:56
not happy or, you know, I don't know if it was
12:58
because you removed a feature or you turn on a feature or just somebody
13:02
wasn't doing exactly what they expected it to do.
13:04
And you're like, you know, we're trying and we're we're going at it.
13:09
You remember that post?
13:10
I do, yeah.
13:11
Those are those are hard to forget.
13:13
Yeah.
13:14
Great job paraphrasing it.
13:15
Me and your wife can can talk about this.
13:17
You can tell me what I missed.
13:20
Yeah.
13:22
Yeah, I, you know, I think vulnerability is really important.
13:24
As a matter of fact, you had
13:25
a, you had a recent episode of your show that listened to the breakout CEO.
13:29
You had, Zach Barney on it.
13:31
I remember the data was aired on February 5th, 2026.
13:35
And a really good episode.
13:37
By the way, I encourage you to listen to it.
13:38
Something that that Zach said was
13:40
that you just need to admit when you're struggling,
13:42
like you're having a struggle or something, you're going to like, be
13:44
be open about it.
13:45
And this was me being that like, I just decided, like,
13:49
hey, I'm going to use my social media platforms for work.
13:53
Like I really only use them for work.
13:54
But I'm also going to be really honest about that stuff on there.
13:56
And when I posted this, it was actually like this.
13:59
It's this weird week that happens every year.
14:02
It's, near the end of January,
14:05
and it's when people who at the beginning of the year were really excited to
14:08
to start a new goal or resolution, whatever you want to call it.
14:11
And this is, this is the time now where they've decided they admitting failure.
14:15
They feel like they decided they're going to quit.
14:17
And there's this they quit the gym the week before.
14:20
And right now they're quitting podcasting.
14:22
Yeah.
14:22
And so what happens is, because we're very community driven within Pi Match.
14:26
And thank you for saying that earlier, by the way.
14:27
Like really a community is is is key to what we're doing these days.
14:31
And so like for me I'm available.
14:32
Like I check the email my wife checks email Jesse,
14:35
our other co-founder, like we're the ones in the email.
14:37
We don't use any AI tools or like chat bots and like that, like it's actually us.
14:42
And every year, that time of year,
14:44
the system does automatically send some notification.
14:46
So it might be like, hey Jeff, notice
14:48
you haven't logged in a couple in a week or something like that.
14:50
Or how's it going so far?
14:52
And because that's open for people to respond, we're the first person
14:56
typically to tell this, to remind this person that, hey, you failed.
15:00
Why right now we don't say that, but that's how they articulate.
15:03
So they respond very like very rude, very like
15:07
I mean, I think maybe they just don't realize a human's going to see it
15:10
because some other people say I'm like, wow, like, would you,
15:13
would you say that in person? Like, that is awful. Like, yeah.
15:16
How could you say, right.
15:16
So people are like, oh, I failed because you all are terrible, right?
15:19
It's like, okay, well that can't really be the reason.
15:21
But the people use way worse words in that.
15:23
So I was really just
15:25
I posted that just have a place of like, man, I'm, I'm worn out.
15:28
It was like a Monday morning.
15:29
And that's always like the worst of it happens Monday morning.
15:32
And so it was just like a bunch of emails in a row
15:33
where I'm like, man, does anyone even like pod match?
15:36
You know, like
15:37
and I go, look, I'm like, oh, there's like a hundred thousand
15:39
people using it, and there's ten here that are angry.
15:41
Like, it's like, okay, I think we're okay.
15:43
But I think, I think that it takes a big commitment
15:47
to be that what I call the front line founder, being the person
15:50
at the front of the pack, being willing to take on some of that,
15:54
that pressure right, of like, hey, you're going to call my baby ugly.
15:56
Go ahead. I'm ready.
15:57
Like I'm bracing myself. And I was having one of those weeks.
16:00
Where is I mean, this is I need to like, remind myself and remind others.
16:03
Like, this is actually hard work.
16:05
Like, I like to make it look like it's all fun and games because usually it is.
16:07
But sometimes, like, man, you got to put on your big boy pants and just go for it.
16:11
And that was one of those weeks for sure.
16:13
I love that.
16:14
I love that phrase. Frontline founder.
16:16
I don't think I've heard it before.
16:17
Or if I have, I didn't remember it.
16:20
But, that really is true.
16:22
I mean, it's that you're you're I think you're referring a little bit
16:26
to battleground scenarios and you're like, you're or at least the chaos
16:31
that would be represented of being out on the battlefield, right?
16:33
Like you're in the middle of it trying to trying to advance when the,
16:39
you know, what's in front of you might be, might be unknown
16:42
at best and hostile, you know, in some in some situations.
16:46
So there's there's something to be said about that front line founder,
16:52
phrasing and mentality.
16:54
Have you use that often?
16:55
I had never heard it before.
16:56
And the first time I ever said it was for that post
16:58
because I was having trouble, like articulating like, well, what am I like?
17:01
Why? Why is this different for me then?
17:04
So and I'm not talking about about other companies
17:05
in the space and listeners all kinds of ways to build your business.
17:08
But most of the businesses in podcasting,
17:10
there's there's no way you would ever have a conversation with a founder
17:13
or anyone above, like just a regular support individual
17:16
who literally has no connection to, like, the actual heartbeat of the business.
17:19
Right?
17:20
So for them, they're like, I'll just block you, you know, like you don't.
17:22
You can trust me.
17:23
I'll just block it.
17:24
I don't care, you know, like I don't get paid enough for this.
17:26
And so like and so I was like, what is this?
17:28
I'm like, oh, basically like I'm running this,
17:30
but I'm actually like, I'm at the front line.
17:32
I'm the first person they get shot at, you know, like it kind of comes right at me.
17:36
And so I never heard it before either.
17:38
I don't know if it was the right term and maybe it has some different
17:41
meaning behind it I'm not aware of, but, to me,
17:43
it's it's how I felt at the very least and still to this day
17:45
feel it's actually how I want to run my business.
17:47
Like, yes, I had a tough week.
17:49
I made it very clear in that post I'm not changing anything.
17:51
I'm just saying this in case you're doing it this way as well.
17:53
And so I want that to be known.
17:54
Like if you're going to build a community around a business
17:57
as a founder, I think have to be really heavily
17:59
involved with that, maybe not the exact front line like I am.
18:02
I'm not saying
18:03
I think maybe what I'm doing is a little extreme,
18:05
but you've got to in some way, shape and form be involved in it
18:07
because the community is going to follow what's happening from the top down.
18:10
Yeah.
18:11
And when before the show, we were talking a little bit about, fear people.
18:14
If you've if the audience hears our, our little icebreaker question
18:18
conversation before this, they'll, they'll hear what you said about that.
18:21
But I think for those who haven't heard it, it's you mentioned that having courage
18:26
is the ability to step into the unknown, even though your mind is telling you,
18:30
oh, wait, wait, I don't know what this I don't know what this is.
18:32
And no, it's going you know what's going to happen.
18:35
And so it sounds to me like you've got a really good handle
18:38
on approaching, you know, those tough moments,
18:42
knowing that they're going to be there even though.
18:44
And that they'll pass too, I think.
18:46
But knowing they're going to be there, even though you don't know
18:48
exactly when they're going to pop up or how they're going to show up.
18:51
Absolutely.
18:52
I think for me, that all ties
18:53
back to my personal core values, which informed the company's core values.
18:56
When I say mine, like my personal core values
18:58
with the companies are between me, Alicia and Jesse, the three co-founders.
19:02
But like one of our big ones that we have on the website,
19:05
we list series like human to human, like we're always gonna do business.
19:07
It's human to human.
19:08
And for me personally, like, it kind of ties to my personal core value
19:12
of what I just say loving first.
19:13
And so I always remind myself, like, hey, I love people for who they are,
19:16
not for what they do.
19:18
And our job as a company is to love people who are hurting.
19:20
And so I remind myself of that.
19:22
And like, I know that I'm using the word love.
19:23
And people are like, aren't you like in podcasting?
19:25
Like, yes, within the day we're in the human connection business.
19:28
Like that's what we do, right?
19:30
And so like there's got to be some sense of love and passion involved.
19:33
They can't just be all transaction in dollars.
19:35
If it is, you're never gonna build a community around at the very least,
19:37
and it's never gonna have a true heartbeat.
19:39
It's so many people these days look for when they want to work with a company.
19:42
And so that's again, this is the cost of designing what we have.
19:46
Right.
19:46
Like so as you were like, man, you all like your company does
19:48
so well, like, how can I build a company that's successful?
19:50
I'm like, you got to want to and it's not.
19:53
Sometimes I feel like we don't get paid enough, you know, like, and that's okay.
19:56
But, that's just the approach we decided to take with this thing, and.
19:59
And I'll be real, 95% of the time, it's a blessing.
20:02
It's a blast. Be part of.
20:03
And I'm really just grateful to be here.
20:05
Yeah, I love it.
20:06
Have you read An Unreasonable Hospitality by chance?
20:09
Man, that's my funny you said that is my next book that's queued up.
20:12
Somebody just told me about this
20:14
after that post and so I have not read it, but it's my next move queued up.
20:18
So hearing it from you makes me really excited. Open it up.
20:21
Yeah, I just read it.
20:21
I and I shared it with my with my team here at the law firm.
20:25
I mean, who's in a law firm?
20:26
You're not like a about hospitality. You're not.
20:28
Hospitality is.
20:29
But we all are.
20:30
We're and and what you're saying remind me of that.
20:33
We're all in the.
20:33
It's like human to human experience.
20:36
What's the emotional response that you create for other people?
20:39
And how do you do that in a way?
20:40
Not that every single interaction has to be that way.
20:42
But if you have a slice, even a sliver of of what you do with your community,
20:47
with your people, with your team, and you make it
20:50
unreasonably great, you know, is the concept.
20:54
And and you create these phenomenal experiences,
20:57
you know, it's you're going to stand out.
20:59
And in the case of of the author of that book, you know, will get all right.
21:03
You're you're going to you're going to develop a three, what is it, a,
21:08
three star Michelin restaurant
21:10
and top of the list in, you know, world class restaurants.
21:14
So I, I'm sure you'll find lots of applications for that.
21:18
And you'll be great at, implementing it in a, in a cool way.
21:22
Yeah. I'm excited about that, man. That's cool.
21:23
Yeah. Well, I'd like to.
21:25
I'd like to ask you because I haven't seen, you know,
21:27
I've watched for the last years, I've been a, you know, a member of your community.
21:32
I've watched what's going on.
21:33
I see things happening and changing, and you're developing things and,
21:37
and you've got a lot going on for the community.
21:40
But I'd love to know for my audience who is, you know, they're like you.
21:44
They're building a business.
21:46
Everybody sees the outside world, and they get to see when things are going right.
21:51
Every once in a while, they get a glimpse into the inside world.
21:55
But a lot of people building businesses think
21:58
I'm just the only one going through this.
22:00
I've got nobody to turn to.
22:01
You know, I could be I could be vulnerable a little bit, maybe out on LinkedIn
22:06
or whatever, but but really, when something really goes wrong,
22:10
who do I tell?
22:10
I don't want to tell my investors
22:12
because they're going to be like, you're incompetent.
22:14
I don't want to tell my employees
22:16
because they're going to be like, why am I working for you?
22:18
I don't want to tell my, you know, there's so many people you
22:20
you can think of a whole list of people you don't want to tell.
22:23
And so they end up just kind of sitting on it and not, do we want to dwell
22:27
on negative things by, by any means, but what is there a moment in your business
22:31
where you kind of hit those plateaus or those obstacles?
22:36
And you said, I kind of figure out, you know, not just how to deal with the
22:42
the implications of what's going on, but how do I change my perspective or,
22:47
or where do I go to get a little bit different insight and really break
22:51
through this moment and find growth out of what otherwise feels like?
22:56
You know, maybe a plateau or
22:59
maybe more, you know, maybe a bigger obstacle than that.
23:02
Just a quick note about our guest.
23:05
I host the breakout CEO podcast to share behind
23:07
the scenes insights from scaling businesses.
23:11
As an attorney, I see the real challenges leaders
23:13
face long before success becomes public.
23:16
But client stories have to stay confidential,
23:20
so we invite guest CEOs to share their own moments of struggle and success.
23:25
I'm so grateful to our guest and my team
23:28
at Intellectual Strategies for making this show possible.
23:31
Now let's get back to the show.
23:34
For me, community is is everything I know.
23:36
I've already said that a few times, but like community
23:38
for yourself as a founder, as a CEO, like it really matters.
23:41
And I've definitely hit this moment.
23:42
Can remember, I think it was about three years into the business and I was like,
23:46
I feel like I was stuck, like, okay, like we've grown and we kind of
23:48
we did plateau as a business. I was like, I don't really.
23:51
I'm now beyond my ability to be a founder.
23:53
And it was interesting cause I was like, I think it's probably time to hire a CEO
23:56
because, like, I'm not a CEO, I'm a founder,
23:58
and there's a there's a big difference, right?
23:59
Like there's and then I just want to give, you know, you plateaued at that.
24:03
Like, what are you seeing.
24:04
The numbers just kind of stall at that point.
24:07
Or was it is that what it was?
24:08
It was it was a few things.
24:10
One, numbers plateaued.
24:12
And so like not just like the, the,
24:13
the revenue the company was making, but also like from the people
24:16
using the platform, like everything was kind of
24:18
it wasn't shrinking, but it was just kind of staying flat.
24:21
And but we knew that we had not reached like market
24:24
maturity by any means, like we knew there was plenty of room to grow.
24:27
And then when we were looking at the development pipeline
24:30
and we were looking at how we were actually maintaining
24:32
all the operations of the business, like, look at all those things.
24:35
I'm like, okay, we're kind of flatlined from a business perspective.
24:39
We're not sure what to work on.
24:40
And from operation standpoint, we've kind of maximized,
24:42
like we've maxed out all the tools we have.
24:44
And it was like that moment I was like, well, something has to change, right?
24:47
Like and for me, like,
24:48
I didn't mean to step in is like the the acting CEO or anything like that.
24:51
We just kind of
24:53
none of us have an ego in this business.
24:54
So me, Alicia and Jessie, like none of us have,
24:57
there's never any people like, well, I want to be the CEO
24:59
when it comes out point. Like we just never had that.
25:01
I just kind of stepped into that without really mean to.
25:04
And it was that moment, right.
25:05
You don't have a CEO before that.
25:06
Was it just literally just co-founders.
25:08
And we'll just we'll we'll just build this together.
25:11
Everybody pitch in where whatever hat needs to be worn that day.
25:14
And for three years you operated just co-founders and.
25:17
Yeah.
25:17
Oh yeah.
25:18
Okay. That's and and yeah.
25:20
So and we're bootstrapped. So it was the three of us that started.
25:23
We legally got buttoned up.
25:24
Jeff, I think I should say that here in front of your presence
25:27
that the day we started it was. I won't even forget it.
25:29
It was, March 10th, 2020, and, I called up,
25:33
my, I had, like, a side hustle business I had a lawyer for anyway.
25:37
And so, like, I call that person, I'm like, hey, I'm changing everything.
25:40
Need some documentation for the three of us to sign.
25:42
We signed. We made all legal, so we're good.
25:44
Awesome. Oh, yeah.
25:45
We just decided, like, hey,
25:45
we're going to put $5,000 in this account and hit the ground running.
25:48
And, and when we run out of that money, we'll figure out what to do with it.
25:51
And thankfully, that money never ran out.
25:53
And I'm super grateful for that.
25:55
But like, back to that present day
25:57
I was sharing about, like, we kind of hit that point.
25:58
And at that point I was like, I think that I think we need to talk
26:02
to some other people.
26:03
Like, let's just start with that. Like, who should we talk to?
26:05
And so for me, I started actively seeking my own community.
26:08
So like, not the pod match me, but my own community among some other founders.
26:11
And there's like plenty of masterminds out there to help with this stuff.
26:14
There's also like localized
26:15
different groups and stuff like that in most major cities at this point.
26:18
But for me, I was like, well, who's
26:20
who's someone who runs a business the way I want to.
26:23
And so I just started seeking those individuals out and that happened
26:25
to meet somebody in Jackson, Florida, who is, he been doing it,
26:29
I think like 15 years longer than me and a very successful brand.
26:32
He ran it the way I liked it, like to be running.
26:34
I just tried to seek out, to be a friend to this guy.
26:36
So I did my best to help him any chance I got
26:38
and eventually built out a friendship.
26:40
And he introduced me to many other people that are much further along than me.
26:43
But I started just getting around other people
26:45
and talking and sharing very transparently.
26:47
These individuals just like,
26:49
hey, here's where I'm at, here's what I'm struggling with.
26:51
And the biggest thing to open my eyes, actually, Jeff, to realizing that, like,
26:54
I could go further
26:55
was the fact that many individuals said, oof, yeah, that's a tough problem.
27:00
And I was like, wait, you're saying that's a tough problem?
27:02
I'm like, hold on. You know, like that actually gave me a lot of confidence.
27:04
So I'm like, oh, I'm not just stupid, you know, like this, this way
27:08
more qualified person than me says, oh, well,
27:10
that's actually a pretty that's a tough problem to overcome.
27:12
And it kind of gave me this freedom to be like, well, then I can still be creative.
27:15
I can sell solutions.
27:17
If someone is far along, as this person says, that's tough.
27:20
Like in many ways, that boost, weirdly enough, was almost all I needed.
27:23
And of course, I got some very pointed wisdom on how to to do things.
27:27
And so having that tight knit
27:28
community myself has been a game changer for me over the years.
27:33
That that almost seems counterintuitive when when you go to somebody smart
27:37
and you take them a problem, you're like, I'm going to get an answer here.
27:40
And they say, you know, Alex, I'm not sure that's tough.
27:44
I think it's I think some people would would react to
27:47
that and be like, oh crap, I'm in trouble.
27:50
Like like I came here to get an answer.
27:52
I'm not getting an answer.
27:54
I'm just gonna shut this thing down.
27:55
Like, I think it would frustrate them.
27:57
You know, it would, but but you took it and you said,
28:01
oh, this is this is encouraging.
28:03
I came to a smart person. I got a hard problem.
28:05
They don't have to solve it either.
28:06
You know, it was it kind of like, well,
28:09
if they don't have to solve it, maybe we are on the same level.
28:11
Maybe.
28:12
Maybe I'm coming up against the things that that they're coming up against.
28:15
And you know, this is a this is a tough problem for anybody.
28:20
I think that, yes, it might be a tough for anybody.
28:23
But the reality is, I think that these individuals
28:25
took the time to really invest in me and get to know me.
28:28
And I think that they just knew that if I said that,
28:29
they're like, if I say this to Alex, he'll go figure it out type of thing.
28:33
And I think it was a little bit of that of like just playing to my own strengths.
28:36
And most of the time these individuals, like,
28:37
would push me in the right direction or help me a little bit.
28:39
But it was never it's
28:40
never been a handout type of relationship, which is it's good because they know me.
28:45
If you kind of hand it out to me, like I probably won't even do it right like that.
28:48
It's harder for me to implement.
28:49
If you're more like, here's an idea, Alex, go run with that.
28:51
Like, I'm much better in and much more fulfilled
28:54
and much better in that scenario.
28:55
So I think these individuals just kind of knew who I was.
28:58
And I meant I do want to clarify, none of them like, left me hanging.
29:01
Like that's a tough problem.
29:02
They kind of then would kind of be like, well, here's a few scenarios here.
29:05
But for me, it's funny. I still go back.
29:06
All I can really hear is the fact they said that was a tough problem.
29:09
I'm like, I can, I can do it. I know I can now, right?
29:11
So and it was definitely not like I, I'm at their level.
29:14
I don't know if I'll ever arrive
29:15
because they're also getting better and better and climbing. Right.
29:17
So to come to you up it like definitely got you energized.
29:20
You're like, oh well, yeah, I can do this 100%.
29:23
That's a good way to say that's exactly what it did for me.
29:25
I love I love that
29:26
I want to, if you don't mind, I'd love to hear a little bit
29:29
more about how you built your network, because I think for some people
29:30
it doesn't come naturally at all.
29:32
You know, they're like, I need everybody here, I need mentors,
29:35
and then they're like 30 years later, like,
29:38
maybe I should have got some mentors somewhere along the way, right?
29:40
Like, but you seem like an outgoing guy.
29:43
Was this an easy thing for you
29:45
to just go and make friends, just go and find mentors?
29:49
Was it like one month to the next?
29:51
You're like, now I got this network of mentors
29:53
and I'm just going to, you know, go to them with problems.
29:55
And yeah, I'm sure a lot of them left your hands,
29:57
but they work through them, present the problems, have
30:00
productive conversations and, you know, and now you benefit,
30:04
you know, forever from these great relationships.
30:08
Is that how it worked?
30:09
I wish no, I'd even say my main mentor.
30:14
I'd say it took me two years to, like, really break to, like, kind of break
30:17
through with, with the guy,
30:19
even get like any sort of reaction from him
30:21
and know that was being annoying
30:22
knocking on his door every day or anything like that.
30:23
It was just like, you can kind of, I don't know, I've got to.
30:26
I try to have a little bit of,
30:29
social, intelligence to know when, like,
30:32
okay, there's not really any like too soon you'll let me back up, slow down.
30:35
We just met type of scenario, right.
30:38
But so for me, for years, I'd say,
30:39
although I'm outgoing, I do like a big personality.
30:42
And so for some people, they're like, oh, dude, calm down, slow down.
30:45
Right. And so I'm aware of that.
30:47
I've learned to tone that down a little bit over the years.
30:50
But I really did struggle.
30:52
I'm like, I don't know how anyone finds a mentor, finds a coach.
30:54
It was actually, one of Michael Hyatt's books.
30:57
And I'm blanking on it's called
30:58
it might have been even mentor mentorship might have been the name of the book.
31:02
It's kind of his philosophy again, Michael Hyatt,
31:04
someone I've been following for years.
31:05
So he's kind of been like a a virtual digital mentor for me for a long time.
31:09
And when I read that, I just realized like that it really comes into play is
31:12
you can't just sort of be like, Will you be my mentor?
31:14
Will you help me?
31:15
It starts with you leading with some form of value.
31:18
And so, like the main individual who I would consider would be like my, my
31:20
main mentor,
31:22
it was something I wasn't even aware of.
31:24
Like we were in each other's ecosystems a little bit, but it turns out
31:27
I interviewed the person he considers to be his main mentor.
31:30
I had no idea they were connected. I had no idea they knew each other.
31:33
And I get a text message from the guy I want mentoring me one day
31:36
and he's like, hey, I heard your conversation with Dr.
31:39
can I call you?
31:40
And I was like, yes, absolutely.
31:43
So we got on a call and he's like, man, I listened to every single.
31:46
I don't know if you know who DHHS is, but I mean, David Hanna, Meyer Hansen.
31:49
But if you like, go to Google and type in DHHS
31:51
who shows up, which I think it's kind of a big deal.
31:54
So but the people that follow do they they don't, like, follow him a little bit.
31:58
Like if he posts something on the internet in a website that only one person ever
32:02
visited, they all find it like it's just kind of who they are.
32:04
And so but he told me, the guy's name is Tom.
32:06
And Tom goes, Alex.
32:07
He goes,
32:08
I have listened to every single piece of content that this guy's ever put out.
32:12
Everyone has ever interviewed him.
32:13
He goes, I've never heard anyone do it like you did.
32:15
And so that was actually the moment that we kind of struck up this, like,
32:18
more mutual, relationship where he felt like I added value to him
32:23
because he's like,
32:23
I've been wondering some of those questions, and no one's ever like,
32:26
I've never had the chance to ask him those questions.
32:28
And like, now you have.
32:29
And you voiced them really well.
32:31
So we were able to build that out and so for me, like finding mentors
32:34
took a lot of patience and me realizing like,
32:37
I've got to put some skin in the game here to make it happen.
32:39
That one was like weirdly connected with other people.
32:42
It's just been like, hey, is there something I can do to to
32:44
to help you out is typically what I begin with,
32:46
just to see if there's some way to start building a relationship.
32:48
Well, I think it goes back to what we were talking about before,
32:50
just this whole emphasis on community, right?
32:53
You might not have intended to use that that recording in that episode
32:58
with the to gain a relationship with a potential mentor you're looking at.
33:01
But but by building the community, they kind of network effects happen.
33:07
And all of a sudden you're you're in a position where
33:10
you have a chance to connect with somebody that you wanted to connect with.
33:13
You know, that's maybe, maybe isn't the most direct way to do it.
33:16
But but it's probably one of the stronger ways, right?
33:19
You've now got somebody reach out to you who you otherwise would have had to
33:23
say, hey, do you have
33:24
can I bug you for a few minutes like, I don't I don't want to impose.
33:28
And they're like, Alex, I want to sit down, talk.
33:31
Right. Yeah.
33:32
Like, you know, it might sound strangely not too connected,
33:35
but the reality is I'm good at follow up, and I think that that's the key here.
33:39
Like, if you ask someone four years ago that you might like,
33:42
hey, will you be my mentor?
33:43
And you never talk to them again, even if, like,
33:44
you don't get at the answer you want, I think that you're missing opportunity.
33:48
Tom only remembered who I was
33:50
because I had reached out multiple times over the years.
33:52
Not saying we mentoring where you mentor me, just being like, hey,
33:54
I enjoyed this, that you did.
33:55
Just making sure I'm like, I don't need to be top of mind,
33:57
but I need to be enough in your mind to know,
33:59
hey, I know someone was Alex's phone number.
34:01
I like this, I want to talk to him,
34:02
but if I would have just that initial interaction and nothing came from it,
34:06
if I would have just left it at that two years later,
34:08
whatever it was when he heard this interview,
34:10
he might not have even remembered that we met, right?
34:12
They kept up with it.
34:13
I think that too many of us, we give up too fast
34:15
and listen, that's a business thing.
34:16
That's a mentorship thing.
34:18
I think that there's a real lesson
34:19
in the fact of like, hey, relationships take time to really develop.
34:22
I love that.
34:24
Has the journey been pretty similar for,
34:26
Alicia and who was your other co-founder just yesterday?
34:30
Jesse I space his name. Sorry.
34:31
No good. Has it been a pretty similar,
34:34
trajectory for them on the team?
34:37
I mean, is it everyone's kind of going down the same path, or have they had
34:40
unique experiences from you because of maybe your your role versus theirs?
34:45
Or you seem to be very much the face of, of the company from what I've seen.
34:51
Like what's their experience been like.
34:53
Yeah. So I can only speak so much for them.
34:56
But from we we are a close group.
34:58
We have two calls per week.
34:59
So Mondays and Wednesdays we do a call together.
35:01
And so and then both our families are friends like we've known job.
35:05
We were in each other's weddings
35:05
like 12 or I guess 2012 and 2011 I think is what it was.
35:10
And so like, we've known each other a long time.
35:12
So whenever like we try to get together outside of work as well.
35:15
And, which Jesse's getting ready to move to the same city
35:18
that we're in, Jacksonville, Florida, which I'm thrilled about.
35:20
It's really nice to all be in the same place.
35:23
But for from what I can speak, I would say for Alicia,
35:26
she runs on the operations side and she's very, very gifted at that.
35:30
And so for her,
35:32
I think it's been a really it's been a great gig for her for a while.
35:36
I know she got a little bit burnt out just because of the amount of work
35:39
that it was, like as we were building out the systems, the,
35:43
the different tools that we use, like all that stuff, like for a little bit,
35:45
it was a lot.
35:46
And I'll admit in some, some days
35:48
it's obviously can still be a lot, but not like that where it's like, hey,
35:51
we went from like nothing to growing really fast.
35:53
And now, like, we don't have the infrastructure
35:55
to hold this type of thing
35:57
and being someone who built that out, I think that that was probably her biggest
36:00
pain point.
36:01
But I think for the most part, I watch her and she's in a
36:03
she goes into a pretty good flow state, like she can just get it done.
36:06
That's one of the things I admire about her.
36:07
While keeping the whole foundation of the company really solid.
36:10
And on Jesse side, I think that he had to learn
36:11
to become a better developer, which is so funny
36:14
because he's actually like, he's so gifted.
36:16
He, his job was like a big, big government job.
36:20
So, like, there's only so much can be said about before he, he got into this, like
36:23
what he was doing, the amount of money he was making is, like, absolutely absurd.
36:27
Like, I didn't know anyone had jobs like that.
36:28
And so but the funny thing is he's like,
36:30
yeah, I've had to learn quite a bit since I started this.
36:32
He goes, I didn't expect to learn anything.
36:33
He's like, I expected this.
36:34
So like kind of without saying it, he almost said,
36:37
I expected to make me dumber when it came to developing.
36:39
But he's had he's had to learn a lot and, he's always stepped up the challenge.
36:43
And I really admire that about him.
36:44
So I think for for Jesse, he loves to be challenged by his work
36:48
and he didn't really expect that to be the case.
36:50
But he has found it to be challenging.
36:52
And I think the right amount of challenging
36:53
where he's able to make traction and not get burnt out by it.
36:55
But, I think he's had a really fun experience. And for me,
36:59
as I've gotten better about understanding
37:01
how to prioritize the right work, that's actually good for the company,
37:04
I think he's learned to enjoy it even more,
37:06
because for a while it's like, oh, Alex's, here he is again, random, complex ideas.
37:10
And now it's very structured, very pointed.
37:12
Yeah, a lot of data goes into any decision
37:14
we make of the order of how we're going to develop things.
37:17
And I think he likes that because he knows it's going to yield a result,
37:19
because we basically have the data to show that this will actually be good.
37:22
And it wasn't just like a off the whim idea.
37:24
So I think for them,
37:26
we've all had different paths because we do such different work.
37:28
There's almost no overlap in anything that we do.
37:31
But I can say the one thing that's in common is like,
37:32
although we've gone through what ups and downs like as a team,
37:35
we've had a blast and really enjoyed it along the way.
37:37
That's awesome.
37:38
And not everybody can say that about working with friends or family.
37:41
So right, as a general job and I and I work with
37:44
I work very closely with my wife.
37:45
She runs the operations of our law firm. She does a fantastic job.
37:48
She's way smarter than I am.
37:50
And it works for us most of the time.
37:52
So, That's great. Nothing. I'm complaining.
37:55
She's got lots of reason to complain about the stuff I do, probably, but, so I.
37:58
But I know it doesn't work for everybody, so kudos to you for for having
38:01
a good working relationship in the business and outside the business.
38:05
That's fantastic.
38:06
Yeah. Thank you.
38:07
Well, I'm going to ask you the hard question
38:09
and then we'll give you a little bit of a chance to think about it.
38:11
So, before the show, we were asking,
38:14
you know, you brought up the concept of, well, where would I be in five years?
38:17
I'm not going to ask you personally where you're going to be in five years,
38:20
although you can answer that if you want.
38:21
I'd like to know where you'd like to see pod match in the next five years.
38:24
Assuming that it.
38:25
Like, do you have another, you know, step like, step function growth?
38:30
Do you just keep on the path you're on?
38:33
I'd love to know where it's at,
38:34
but I want to give you a moment
38:35
just for your brain to think about that in the background,
38:38
because in the meantime, I'd like I'd like to know
38:41
what's the advice that you would give somebody who's building a business?
38:45
They're further behind you on this, you know, maybe a similar path.
38:49
And they've hit some of these rocks, these bumps in the road.
38:53
Maybe they haven't, you know, been able to navigate their team
38:57
or they haven't been able to find the right mentors, or
39:00
they've gotten a little bit of negative feedback from their from their customers.
39:04
Like like what?
39:05
What are the things that you would tell somebody like that
39:09
if they came to you and said, I need, I need, I need a little advice, Alex.
39:13
The first thing I'd say is, is remembering the fact that you can't do it alone.
39:17
There's the old Helen Keller quote that says, alone I can
39:19
we can do so little, but together we can do so much.
39:22
And I think it's important that, like, hey,
39:23
just know you're never going to do it alone.
39:25
And I think the first step would be if someone's actually coming to me,
39:27
it means that they acknowledge that. Right.
39:29
And so it's a good step if you're coming to someone else saying,
39:31
hey, I'm kind of struggling here like that little transparency matters.
39:34
And also the realization of,
39:35
like, I'm not going to be some rock star, does it on my own.
39:38
An example this I know we all, we all praise Elon Musk,
39:41
and I'm not trying to sell his achievements short.
39:43
He has an incredible team around him.
39:45
Like the most brilliant people on the planet surround him.
39:48
It's not because he's some brainiac genius.
39:50
It does everything by himself.
39:51
He's got countless people that are like the smartest people on the planet, right?
39:54
Yeah.
39:55
And there's been plenty others
39:56
leaders like that have that have modeled that really well.
39:58
And so we're not going to be able to do it alone.
40:00
And so I think for me, beyond that, it's important people articulate what matters.
40:05
So like if someone to me like Alex, I'm really struggling.
40:08
Like I just don't know what to do.
40:09
I'd be like, well, where are you at today?
40:11
And most people are not gonna have an answer for that.
40:13
Well, where could you go tomorrow?
40:15
They're not gonna have an answer for that.
40:16
And so for me, I think it's super important to have this one key metric.
40:20
The key metric is the one that actually
40:23
is the trigger for everything else.
40:26
And so like inside of our business I'll share what I mean.
40:28
Like I don't actually track our measure, our monthly reoccurring revenue.
40:31
Most software companies that's what they want to see.
40:33
What's your churn rate. What's this what's that like.
40:35
There's all these numbers we use in software.
40:37
And when I really started diving in that I found a little bit overwhelming.
40:40
And it took my attention away from the community element.
40:42
And I was like, I don't want that.
40:43
I was like, so what metric triggers the rest of these to work?
40:46
Well, what it comes down to
40:47
when our business is interviews completed on the platform,
40:50
the average number of interviews complete on a platform per day.
40:54
And so I tell people like, if you can find your one metric
40:56
and have a goal assigned to that or some sort of milestone
40:59
that you want to reach, knowing that and saying, I've built everything else
41:02
to work well, if I can get this number right now, you can share something.
41:05
It's like, okay to have more interviews completed every day.
41:07
Pod match what we need to do.
41:09
Can you make sure more people are connecting faster?
41:11
Right. Like, how do we be the right people getting together?
41:13
How did you discover that?
41:14
That seems like like I wouldn't know where to look.
41:16
What did you just go through?
41:17
The numbers are like,
41:18
hey, listen, this number correlates to all the other positives of happening.
41:21
Or was it like, how did you how did you decide that in your business?
41:24
I know there's a little bit of a tangent from what we're.
41:25
Yeah.
41:26
Now, but I'm super curious.
41:27
Yeah. So for me, like I do love strategy.
41:30
I love numbers like that stuff is fun for me to dive into.
41:33
And so I've been using Excel since before it was like really like mainstream.
41:38
It's like I understand it, use it really well.
41:39
So I put everything into an Excel spreadsheet, start diving down,
41:42
seeing like if this moves what, what else moves. Right.
41:45
And so this is before we had clean metrics.
41:46
Now we have metrics built around this. Yeah.
41:48
But for me I was like okay.
41:49
Like what's the one thing I finally got down to.
41:51
And I'm like, if the interviews are being complete,
41:52
if that number is climbing, then pod match is healthy
41:55
from a churn rate perspective, from a mirror perspective,
41:59
from from the people actually using the platform versus being inactive.
42:03
And so my goal is just to to grow that number.
42:06
So interviews complete is what I look at.
42:07
And yes, I monthly I go through and look at all the numbers and data.
42:11
But I just know if I track this one and that number is climbing,
42:15
it means we're actually really healthy.
42:16
And so I continue there's a percentage needs to grow and stuff like that.
42:20
Right. But that's what I track.
42:21
And so when I have a problem and I'm bringing it to people that are mentors
42:24
or to to anybody in my life, I'm realizing I need help.
42:28
It's when that number seems to be struggling
42:30
and then I can kind of reverse engineer.
42:31
It's like, okay, well, what needs to happen?
42:33
Like where's the friction point? Right?
42:34
And more interviews being completed.
42:36
And so we look at our kind of like the flywheel approach.
42:39
Have you heard of that Jeff. Like yeah okay.
42:41
So the flywheel basically like the faster
42:42
flywheel spins, the more powerful it gets.
42:44
We look at is three prong.
42:46
It's marketing, it's conversion, it's retention.
42:48
And so like if our interviews complete
42:50
are not claiming we want to, we look at those
42:51
three things and say okay is there a marketing problem.
42:53
Conversion problem is a retention problem.
42:55
Like what is where is the weakest link to keeping this thing spinning faster
42:59
so we can grow that number?
43:00
I personally look at that.
43:01
That's again that's every month I'm looking at that
43:03
and I'm tracking that and figuring out like where is the pain point.
43:05
Right now?
43:06
And there's always gonna be a different one.
43:07
It's always evolving and changing whichever one's weaker.
43:09
So just focus on it, fix that one and then see what happens next.
43:13
Yeah, that's probably more technical than I was supposed to get it, but I love it.
43:16
Somebody
43:17
and I hope that there's somebody in data analytics that listened to this podcast
43:22
and says, I gotta get Alex on so we can dive into the numbers here.
43:25
I want to listen to that episode myself.
43:27
So so that's fantastic. I love it.
43:30
So yeah, and I know I kind of took us off
43:33
the off track from the from what you would tell other people.
43:38
But let's get to your
43:38
let's get to that last question now, five years from now,
43:41
what does what does this look like for you, for your team, for the company?
43:46
Where would you see yourself?
43:47
Yeah.
43:48
So for me obviously growing that interview completed number.
43:51
Right. Like that's that's the big metric there.
43:53
But for me I've really in the last
43:57
365 days at time of recording this, I went to a ton of podcasting events.
44:01
I went to meet ups, I've talked to people online, done virtual.
44:03
So I've done it all.
44:04
And I'm realizing there is a huge shift to community centric business.
44:10
And so for me, I know that the next five years
44:12
and it won't take all that time,
44:14
but I think to really get a true market adoption to it is going to take a while
44:18
for us to shift our focus more and more to community.
44:21
And so like for us,
44:22
that means teaching people how to be a good affiliate for Pod match.
44:25
It means actually having community events in person and also virtual.
44:29
It means having we call our legacy team, which is the people that want to
44:32
be part of the pod match, evangelist, street team type of thing.
44:34
Or hey, like the people that are out there promoting it,
44:37
we have a network inside a pod match,
44:39
and we're getting ready to do some other micro meetups and ways
44:41
that people can just collaborate together inside the platform.
44:44
We just launched a CRM inside of it.
44:46
I know I'm sharing a lot of things,
44:47
but the whole idea here is in this next five years,
44:49
we want people to be able to say, pod match is a community.
44:52
I pay a membership for it because it has a platform side,
44:55
but as a community,
44:55
first and foremost, as connecting me with other podcast guest and host.
44:58
Yeah, business partners and the people that I just needed to meet.
45:02
And so we're really doing our best to turn out that
45:03
that community hub or ecosystem.
45:06
And so in the next five years,
45:07
I see us really being able to achieve that in this world.
45:09
That's just the digital world that is just starving
45:12
for some form of real human connection like it never has before.
45:16
We want to really be at the forefront of helping make this a reality,
45:19
so that people can follow it beyond our business as well.
45:21
I love that, and it's you know, I think I've heard people suggest
45:25
that community is that human element that I will not be able to, to replicate.
45:31
Right.
45:31
And so,
45:32
we can sit on our,
45:33
our digital therapist all day long if we want, but that's different from
45:37
being in a community of other people doing something,
45:40
you know, aligned with your passion.
45:41
So, I'm excited to see where it goes.
45:44
And, I'm excited to keep participating in that as it grows into more
45:48
and more of a community. So
45:50
thanks, Jeff.
45:50
I appreciate that. Man. Means a lot.
45:52
Yeah, yeah.
45:53
No. And Alex, I appreciate you coming on the show.
45:55
It's it's been a lot of fun.
45:56
I it's good to see, you know, the real side of businesses
46:01
and for other people building businesses to see.
46:05
Oh, I'm not the only one going through this
46:06
like like there's ups and downs and everybody does it.
46:09
And I think my takeaway is or my suggestion for some of the listeners
46:14
out there who I know struggle a little bit more when they come up with
46:18
come up against harder questions, is to is to maybe
46:22
think about the the perspective shift that you introduced, at least for me.
46:26
And that is oh, I asked him if I presented my problem
46:29
to some really smart person instead of getting an answer.
46:32
They said, yeah, that is a hard problem and be able to walk away and say,
46:36
oh my gosh, you know what? That should be?
46:39
I'm going to have to figure out how
46:40
that's encouraging to me, because I think my attitude is
46:43
I'm kind of tuned to be like, oh, well, I was hoping for, you know, progress.
46:48
But now I got to figure.
46:49
So I got a little bit of work
46:51
to do on myself to figure out that that right perspective.
46:53
But I love it and I'm going to work on it. So.
46:56
Oh man, that's a that's a cool takeaway. Thank you for sharing that.
46:58
And I think that the encouragement there is just like
47:01
as CEOs as founders like we're trail trailblazers.
47:04
Like there's times when the trail gets tough, like it gets scary.
47:06
Right. But I said it earlier in this conversation.
47:09
Maybe it was like in the icebreaker round.
47:11
But courage means being afraid than doing what you have to do anyway.
47:14
Yeah, if there's smart people around you
47:15
and they haven't figured out yet,
47:16
that means there's a real opportunity there
47:17
and there's a chance for you to level yourself up.
47:19
Let that be inspiring and encouraging.
47:21
I know for me it has been and obviously I'm going to go back and seek help, right?
47:24
I'm going to use everything I can to figure it out.
47:26
But I now know, like, oh man, I'm I'm trailblazing.
47:29
Let's figure this thing out.
47:30
Right? And so, I'm glad you had a cool takeaway, Jeff.
47:32
That's cool to hear. Yeah.
47:34
And, not to not extend this too long, but to add to that a little bit,
47:37
the front lines issue, you know, you know, when you're pushing that front,
47:41
that frontline forward, because of the courage
47:44
you have to step out, it's not just pushing it forward for you.
47:47
If you've got this community mentality, you're pushing that frontline forward
47:50
for everybody. So I love this.
47:52
So many takeaways here Alex.
47:53
It's been it's been fantastic chatting with you.
47:55
And so I just want to say thank you.
47:58
You know personally I'm really glad to have a chance to talk with you.
48:01
But also on behalf of our audience.
48:02
Thank you for coming out of the under the show. Alex.
48:05
Yeah. Jeff, thank you so much. This is a blast, man.
48:07
I had a lot of fun here today. It's been great.
48:09
And to our audience,
48:10
thank you for joining us again on another episode of The Breakout CEO.
48:15
Be sure to
48:16
follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast platform.
48:19
And if you enjoy the show, a rating or a review goes a long way.
48:24
Our mission is to promote the stories of breakout CEOs
48:28
in scaling SAS, e-commerce, and tech companies
48:32
to equip peer CEOs with valuable perspectives and confidence.
48:37
Thanks again for joining us on this episode of The Breakout CEO.
48:42
I'm Jeff Holeman, and I'll see you next time.