Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / REBROADCAST: Let a Win Be a Win in High Conflict
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to It's All Your Fault Untrue Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those with someone who may have a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter, and I'm here with my co-host Bill Eddie. Speaker 2 (00:22): Hi everybody. Speaker 1 (00:24): We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California, where we focus on training, consulting, coaching, and educational programs and methods that all to do with high conflict. In this episode, we discuss how to avoid sabotaging a successful interaction, um, in a high conflict situation and how to identify that success and let a win be a win. And you may be surprised about the definition of what a win is in high conflict, but first, a couple of notes. If you have a question about a high conflict situation, send it to us at podcast high conflict institute.com or on our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast where you'll also find all the show notes and links. Please give us a rate review and tell your friends, colleagues, or family about us, especially if they're dealing with a high conflict situation. We really appreciate all of you listeners tuning in each week. Speaker 1 (01:27): Let's talk about letting a win be a win. What does this mean in high conflict? It's a little bit different from ordinary situations where we might focus more on an outcome perhaps in resolving a dispute or getting the last word in or something like that. But in high conflict situations, uh, there's a a slightly different definition. And what we mean is that we often see people unintentionally sabotage an interaction, a mediation, a negotiation, uh, any type of interaction in a high conflict situation where instead of stopping where there's been some progress, we keep going and we keep pushing for, for more, uh, more resolution for, uh, an outcome that we perceive will consider it a win. And, and it's not a win over the person. Uh, I don't mean that by any means. It's just a win in the situation. Did we make some progress? So, so Bill, what are your thoughts on that? What's, what's the definition of a win in high conflict? Speaker 2 (02:39): Making good progress. When you seek perfection, you often blow up your good progress. And I think of, of many cases where this has happened, where a reasonable person has helped keep the other party focused on thinking about options and choices and moving forward. And then they just, just wanna go a little further to have perfection, a sense that, oh, great, now that we've made a reasonable agreement and you're acting like a reasonable person, let's just go all the way, you know, , right? And kaboom. The, the example I think of, uh, right away is I was doing a divorce mediation with two very high conflict. Both parties were very high conflict, they both had lawyers in the room and we made a little bit of progress in two hours. And I was saying, this is great, you know, we've made a little progress. We'll build on this at our next meeting in a couple weeks. Speaker 2 (03:46): We got our calendars out, agreed on the next date. And then as the husband and his lawyer were packing up to leave, the husband's lawyer says to the husband, don't you feel better now? The the husband's lawyer was just feeling like, you know, this is great. We made some progress. I'm just gonna kind of reinforce that we made good progress and I want him to feel good about it. And so he says, don't you feel better now? Well, guess what? This is still a high conflict person he is talking to who says pauses and then says, absolutely not. In fact, this is terrible meeting. In fact, I'm never coming back. And his entire mood just drowned out The emotions drowned out the progress that we had made and we could have built upon, I think. But by opening up emotions, it just, the flood just erased all of that. And I totally understand where his lawyer was coming from. He wanted to like reinforce, see, this can work, this can help you, but he should have left well enough alone. You know, just smiled at him and said, good work. Yeah, Speaker 1 (05:05): and , right? And, and, and let the win be the win in in that moment. Yes. Um, and that's, that's interesting bringing up emotions because you know, high conflict individuals mostly have a hard time regulating their own emotions. So if you do open up the emotions, if you go that route, it's uh, you know, a high possibility that you'll have some kind of eruption or disruption or something that leads to all or nothing thinking and, you know, I'm outta here, I'm not coming back. Uh, you know, that might be an extreme case, but, um, in any case, you can sabotage the good work you've done. Speaker 2 (05:44): You know, I like the concept of choosing your battles and if you win a couple battles, like you said, let a win be a win instead of going for the whole package. That progress. And this is true, people have found this in therapy, that progress when you're really trying to, to go beyond somebody's personality, their way of being, the problems they're facing, this is a slow process. And some people with high conflict personalities or traits really have the potential to make some change and to grow and sometimes outgrow the disorder. Like borderline personality disorder is one that's known for people outgrowing that with D B T, dialectical Behavior therapy. And so we have to let things build. We have to let things take some time and reinforce the win, as you said. And I think just congratulating people on their success is so much better than saying, well, now that you're being a reasonable person, let's go for more . Right? And you have to measure and know how much is too much to go for and when to build and pause and when to, you know, meet again and build some more. Speaker 1 (07:06): Right. And, and the difference, uh, uh, kind of understanding the difference between giving praise for a job well done versus opening up emotions as you were discussing. Yes, praise is okay. It's, it's, that doesn't open up emotions. You're just giving, you're, you're validating that something good happened. And I think what people might misunderstand in high conflict situations is that many people with high conflict personalities are not used to having wins in their mediations, in their negotiations, in interactions with other people. They're frequently, uh, you know, butting heads and getting upset and getting anxious. So when, when they've had some kind of a, a win, you're sort of, you know, kind of doing a disservice by, uh, you know, either opening up emotions or just having that last word that's going to blow things up. So giving some praise though is okay, right? Speaker 2 (08:01): I was thinking what can we tell people to watch out for what's trying for the last word? And I think of the forget about, its that we have, as we say, forget about opening up emotions. And we just talked about how that can blow things up. You want to keep focus on thinking and doing, but also forget about going back to the past. And sometimes, you know, people want to go back to the past and say, well, this is what you should have done before that blows things up. And trying to give the person insight into themselves, well see, you know, if you would just do it this way all the time, um, you would have friends . And, and the insight emotions in the past are just things to really forget about. And it's, it's sad, but you can help people by helping them think, helping them act and people can decisions. We see that all the time, even high conflict people because you're staying focused on something that can be successful. And you have to, you have to be realistic about what can be successful. But if you are, you can constantly have a building process and then kind of pause and shore up your win. And then when it's time, go for some more, but don't go for the whole shebang when you've had a little bit of progress. Speaker 1 (09:26): Um, I guess the, the definition really of, of, of a win in high conflict situations is progress. If you're making progress, um, it may be slower than progress in other cases in situations, but that's, that's the definition. Yeah, Speaker 2 (09:42): I think that's the, the fundamental is progress. And actually in alcohol and drug treatment, they talk a lot about progress, not perfection. And I think that fits totally here. It's when you try for perfection that you blow up the progress. Now the, the thought I had, I was remembering back, this is many years ago when I was a therapist and I was treating a, uh, firefighter who had, I think maybe he was in his earlier, mid, mid forties, big guy, strong guy, and feeling good about being a, you know, big and strong. And he had a stroke, um, something had happened and he had a stroke and he was slowly starting to be able to come back, like I think like his left arm and some of his thinking and such. And we decided early on that 2% progress was progress. And so we'd have 1% in the counseling office and then he'd go for a week and then come back. Speaker 2 (10:49): And at first he was saying, it's hopeless, I'll never do this and that. And I said, let's focus on the progress. And I just remember one time he came in and he was just so bright and positive and he said, I made 2% progress this week. Oh, nice. And he was so proud of that. And what's interesting with a stroke is people can recover, but it may take years and a lot of doing the right things, but you know, there's people that have recovered from strokes completely and, you know, a few years let it be what it has to be. You don't stress your body and your brain. Speaker 1 (11:27): Yeah, I, that reminds me of the book by Jill Bolty Taylor called, um, my Stroke of Insight, uh, one of my favorite books. I that, yeah, it was just fantastic cuz she was a neuroscientist of some type. Um, and she studied strokes for a living and then she had a stroke and she's just a, a brilliant person and she decided to pay attention to, um, everything that was happening to her as had this stroke so that she could hopefully, hopefully someday write about it. And I recall it, she said it took about seven years to get, you know, beyond all of the really hard therapies and, and the work. So yeah, I like that. It's, it, it may be slow going sometimes, but it's prog there's progress. So take that progress as a win. And you know, I think of, of some meetings I've facilitated between individuals who are very unhappy with each other and, uh, seem to exhibit some high conflict behaviors, and, um, and, uh, their interactions were, were not always very fruitful and productive. Speaker 1 (12:32): We use a, you know, our proposal technique of, well, it's yours, you created it Bill to keep a meeting very structured and in a meeting that will get people to some sort of agreement. And I had some, uh, just really fantastic success, a win, right? There was progress, an agreement was made and the, the meeting should have just ended there, but there was another, um, individual in the room who decided to kind of go back to the past one of the figh, forget about it, and, um, relate what had just happened to a past event. And that just blew up both parties again. And now they were unhappy where they just felt some success at reaching an agreement. You know, that's kind of where this comes from. Um, and I also wanted to say, bill, the Giving Insight piece, you were talking about one of the other, forget about, it's, this is really one of the most tempting things that, that people are kind of a natural, um, instinct that we have to explain to p to other people, that it's something that's really obvious to us and it's just not obvious to them at all. Speaker 1 (13:41): And there, there might be a degree to right, fighting and wanting to have a win or to be right, or just you're so ticked off and so aggravated by this person and their behaviors that you might just wanna get that last word in or something and, and give them some insight. And it's, you really have to bite your tongue, Speaker 2 (13:59): Fighting your tongue and, and, and not going for everything that you, you'd like to go for. It's so tempting, especially when you can see somebody is sabotaging themselves and it's so simple what they're doing wrong, and you just wanna tell them like, like maybe no one ever pointed out to them that the way they speak, uh, turns people off. And so, you know, why don't I just inform them? And all the time in our trainings and stuff, at the beginning we say, don't try to give the person insight. And near the end of many trainings, people still say, well, what about if you just point out what, what's problematic in their behavior? Um, will they, will they get it and will they change? And I said, that's trying for insight. And that can not only they don't get it, but it can harm your relationship. And, and the idea of trying to give people insight, there's so many different words we use for that, that we're, we're not even aware that we're like, oh, well there's this thing you just did, can't you see? And it's like, now you're in trouble. Now you're in a big argument. So I think being realistic, uh, that's one of the big things we're trying to teach about high conflict people is don't be judgmental, be strategic. Be aware of how far you can go so you can have a win. Be a win. Speaker 1 (15:29): Oh, that's brought to mind an episode of Naked and Afraid, which probably sounds bad to those who have never heard of that TV show, but , it's, I have, it's not na it's not a nasty show. It's a, it's a, oh, okay. It's a reality show that's kind of interesting because they, uh, volunteers put their name forward to go, um, on kind of an adventure and they're dropped off in a jungle in, you know, south America or Africa or, you know, Alaska, um, naked. Soon as they get there, they have to take every last stitch of clothing off and then they meet someone else that's usually a male and female paired up complete strangers and they, uh, have to meet naked, which is awful. And so cringey awkward, uh, then they have to live together for 21 days and really support each other as a team because it's very hard to survive without, you know, food, water, and shelter for 21 days. Speaker 1 (16:27): And they have to rely on each other. And I, so I've, I've watched this many, many episodes of this and, and it's, it's always, there's always a, a formation period where things are, are a little crunchy as people get to know each other. But when you have that high conflict individual there, it is just the worst. I mean, 21 days with no one else and having to rely on each other. So a recent episode, the female in the de pair was extraordinarily high conflict and uh, just very condescending and bossy. And I recall one, one phrase where she told her partner on day one, within about the first three hours, let me tell you all the ways you're wrong. And it just, and you that along with everything else she was doing, I mean, there was lots of all or nothing. There was, you know, blame, blame, blame. And, and so the whole high conflict pattern was definitely there. But I I, it's interesting to hear someone just say out loud, let me tell you all the ways that you are wrong. Speaker 2 (17:29): That's a warning sign of a high conflict person cuz they're preoccupied with blaming others. That's a line to watch out for. If you ever hear that Trouble is coming Speaker 1 (17:42): And really blame is the, is is one I think kind of the easiest indicator of high, wouldn't you say? Speaker 2 (17:50): I think so. It's, it's often the biggest, it's kind of like, oh wow, they're blaming me for something I have no control over or something that they did. And so blame is really, and it's a hundred percent it's all your fault. Um, yeah, we should name a podcast after that. We Speaker 1 (18:07): Should. Oh yeah, we should. . Yeah, it's, it's, it's very telling and I mean, you know, I suppose many people, probably most people have blamed someone at, at some point in their life, but the high conflict individual, it's, it's just an automatic first thought. It's how they're programmed, um, when things don't go their way, when things don't go as expected. The first automatic first thought is it came from the outside. And uh, that's, uh, if you see a pattern of this, it's, it's, um, interesting and you better better change a strategy. Speaker 2 (18:41): You can predict a lot from that. Yeah. So summon is a hundred percent blaming you. You can predict they probably have a lot of other, all or nothing thinking perhaps unmanaged emotions. This is how they deal with it and perhaps some extreme behavior. And that's why it's helpful to recognize warning signs just and then have your expectations adjust. Cuz I think a lot of what you're saying, Megan, is that, that people don't let it be a win because they have a bigger win they're aiming for. And we have to have our expectations be realistic. It's worth trying to make things better. And often you can manage a relationship, but it may never be the perfect relationship that you wanted. And I think of that with people and their parents, adults and their older parents, and that people, if they had a high conflict parent as adults, they come back and want to give feedback and say, you know, mom, you have this problem, just, just fix this problem and you'll be so much happier. We read about it on the internet and I have a case like that. Three sisters confronted their mother over the holidays and their mother said, get outta my house. I never wanna see you again. Oh Speaker 1 (19:57): Boy. Speaker 2 (19:58): And so their expectations just, they didn't realize that you can blow things up and if you have a high conflict person in your family, you may have to accept that you're going to have more of a surface relationship, but try to make the surface relationship comfortable and happy and the best that it can be. Like holidays and celebrations and things like that. Speaker 1 (20:24): Exactly. Speaker 1 (20:31): Well, I think that was a, a good discussion and I hope it was, was helpful to you. Our listeners next week we are going to talk about exposing the bad behavior of someone with a high conflict personality. Is that a wise strategy or not? In the meantime, send your questions to podcast high conflict institute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. And, uh, we'd love that if you told your friend about friends about us and gave us a review when you have a minute. So keep learning and practicing these skills and being kind to yourself and others while we all try to find the missing piece. It's all your fault. It's a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson, music, by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins, and zip Moran. Find the show, show notes and transcripts@truestory.fm for high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app Laos ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.