Latest / Beautifully Complex / 347: Accommodations That Reduce Cognitive Load Restore Motivation, with Jeff Copper, MBA, PCC, PCAC, CPCC, ACG

Transcript

347: Accommodations That Reduce Cognitive Load Restore Motivation, with Jeff Copper, MBA, PCC, PCAC, CPCC, ACG · Beautifully Complex

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: There are accommodations for ADHD, but I've got a bone
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: to pick with them, and I'm going to pick on
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: extra time. I like this one because it is commonplace,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: whether it's extra timeline test or extra time to do
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: a thing effectively. Penny, all we're doing is allowing people
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: a longer time to suffer. We're not relieving the impairment.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: We're just having you suffer longer.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and transformative
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover how
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh and
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: if you want more support, join our free community at
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: hub dot beautifully complex dot life. Welcome back, parents, educators,
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: and other caring adults in our nerd of our kids' lives.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: I have Jeff copper Back on the podcast with me,
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: someone I consider a leading expert in ADHD and also
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: a friend, and we just have the most amazing conversations
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: about really getting deep into the meat of ADHD and
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: neurodivergence and what is going on for our kids. And
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: I'm just excited as always to chat with you about
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: new ideas, Jeff, But will you start by letting everybody
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: know who you are and what you do.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Yes, I'm Jeff Copper. I'm a cognitive engineer and an
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: ADHD coach. I've been working for nineteen years in this
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: space as a coach and a cognitive engineer. I do that.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: I got my own podcast, I got a YouTube channel.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: I'll do a fair amount of speaking, and I do
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: a lot of advocating for those with cognitive disabilities. I'm
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: involved with the disability board of a nonprofit in helping
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: some lobbyist form public policy. So I'm kind of all
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: things ADHD. Y Yeah.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And you've been podcasting for a really long time
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: at this point. I think you were one of the
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: very first to be talking about ADHD in that way.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: And I've learned so very much from you over the
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: years as my kid has grown up. It's been such
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: a good resource and I just I value it so much.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: I know that so many other people do as well.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: Let's get into the topic of motivation and executive function
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: and neurodvergence. And I think we have to start with
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: clarifying motivation because a lack of motivation isn't laziness, but
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: that's what we're taught it is. So how do we
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: reframe that?
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Well, that's what I'm here today to do, and I
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: want to reframe this with a new way of looking
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: at motivation. So I'm going to give a little bit okay,
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah for some of it, just to
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: devalidate it. But we'll try to keep it nice and simple.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: When you think about it, Motivation is this internal that
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: determines what you do and don't do, like at its
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: most basic level, I like to keep it just that basic. Now.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you're having me on here, because the topic
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: of motivation is quite emotional, right. A lot of times
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: people look at people with ADHD and say that person's
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: not motivated. That is actually an emotional observation, it's not
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: an objective observation. If somebody's just sitting on the couch
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: not doing their homework, it's not that they're motivated. It's
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: they're motivated to sit on the couch. That's what it is.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: That's a subtlety but why is that important. Well, if
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: somebody's motivated to sit on the couch and you're saying
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: you're not motivated, all you're doing is shaming the individual.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: You're not really helping them. But if you go they're
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: more motivated to sit on the couch than they are
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: to do that, now you go, oh, there's a problem.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: What do I do in the environment to shift things
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: so that they would naturally do what might be good
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: for them? So it changes our approach in trying to
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: solve the problem. Does that make sense? Yeah?
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: Totally. And it's hard to let go of some of
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: those ideas that have been ingrained in us as parents
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: or educators. And so it's really important that we're talking
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: about what motivation really, what drives it, where does it
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: come from? Why is it a struggle versus I'm just
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: going to find any way to motivate my kead whatever
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: it takes. Absolutely, because that doesn't work, right, That's what
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: we're seeing. That's why we're talking about it, because that
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: doesn't work.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: So I like to today I need to get into
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: a little bit weeds because I would like to kind
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: of frame out a new way of viewing motivation, particularly
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: in the context of people with executive function and impairment,
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: so that we can make logical sense of this and
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: then come back to the motion. Is that okay? Yeah?
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: Absolutely So.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of doctor Russell Barklay's executive Functioning
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: construct and I've done a lot of working with it,
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: and you know, Penny and you and I have talked
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: about it. But he talks about the brain being a
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: two level system. You have an automatic brain, which is
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: more primitive, and you have the executive functioning brain, which
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: is very effortful because it takes a lot of energy
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: for the executive function brain to override the automatic It's
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: almost like when you're going back for seconds and you're
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: really hungry, like you know you shouldn't need it, but
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: you do it anyway. There's a fight that's going on there.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: So what I've done is changed motivation. As we look
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: at it as a two four system. You have the
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: automatic brain or the primitive brains motivation, and you have
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: the executive functioning brain motivation. So when we split it
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: into two competing forces, that's what we have. We have
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: two forces that are actually competing for dominance to see
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: what wins. That brings in some interesting things. So, if
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: we begin to look at the automatic brain, it's motivation
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: is emotional. It's based off of your urges, your desire
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: to seek play measure, or your desire to escape discomfort.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: It's actually a survival mechanism. Like we forage for food
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: for pleasure because we need nourishment. We come in from
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: the hot and cold because it's uncomfortable. Again, I don't
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: want to minimize it, but our primitive brain is driven
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: by our emotional urges to survive. Our executive functioning brain
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: is driven by the emotional desire for achievement. Right, Our
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: emotional desire for achievement. Right. But let's talk about this.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: The executive functioning brain is effortful. Right when it wants
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: to achieve something. There's a level of discomfort that is
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: present for this to happen. So to bring this in
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: a tangible way that I hope people can identify with,
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: I use my personal experience. I was a swimmer. I
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: was internationally ranked at one time in the eighties. When
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: I'm standing over water's edge, right, it's uncomfortable. Often because
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: the pool temperatures seventy nine degrees, it's cold. When I
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: dive in, I'm going to get a shock that I'm
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: not going to like. It's not going to be pleasant.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: So a lot of times I'm sitting there, come on, Jeff,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: go and I think a lot of people can maybe
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: think about being around the pool where're like, okay, maybe
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: some other people you go and to push them in
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: or kind of whatever. Again, what I'm really highlighting is
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: there's a level of discomfort that you have to endure
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: or I had to endure to dive in and swim
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: every day. Does it make sense so far? Yep, totally
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: So if we begin to look at it like that,
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: right in a neurotypical brain, we have this equilibrium between
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: these two forces. What I'd like to say is what
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: makes this really exciting is ADHD is an executive functioning impairment.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: I'm going to reiterate it's an executive impairment, but let's
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: go further. Executive functions are what we use to solve problems.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: You and I've talked about this before. Problems are multifaceted
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: and ambiguous, planning, making decisions, et cetera. Don't want to
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: get that far into that, but the point really is
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: it's impaired, which means that it's less efficient. It's less efficient,
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: it doesn't have the same capacity. So for our purposes today,
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: I want to illustrate this numerically. It's not right, but
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: just follow the logic. If the ADHD brain is executive
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: functions are fifty percent impaired. Okay, let's go with that assumption.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: If we look at a neurotypical and they expend one
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: unit of motivation or one unit of effort and they
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: get one unit of outcome, that's our baseline. If you've
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: got ADHD and you have a fifty percent impairment, that
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: means one unit of motivation or effort would produce a
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: half a unit of outcome. So we're short. If this
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: is true, logically, the person with ADC would have to
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: produce two units of motivation to get one unit of output. Right,
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: So what's important about this is that effort. There is
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: an emotional cost associated with that effort. In other words,
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: it's more painful. So let me go back to where
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: I was as a swimmer. The pool temperature seventy nine degrees,
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: but metaphorically, if it's fifty nine degrees for me, it's
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: more painful. There's a greater to turrent. Now I've literally
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: driven thirty miles or thirty minutes, gotten to a pool,
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: stood over water's edge and said not today, and turn
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: around went home because I didn't run to deal with
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: the shot. Right, So if I put it in this
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: thing the water temperature is fifty eight, it's much more
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: difficult for me than everybody else. So there's a greater
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: urge right to escape that pain. Because it's a greater pain,
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: there's an emotional cost. So what happens is that extra
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: effort swings the pendulum in favor of the automatic brain. Right.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: So this is interesting because we look at people with
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: ADHD and we're quick to judge behavior. They're not doing
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: what I want them to do. They must be unmotivated
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: or lazy. But we're not taken into consideration the impairment
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: with the way I'm describing it. For people they issue
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: when they do produce, you're like, holy crap, for this illustration.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: It takes twice the effort. They're really motivated to do
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: that stuff because they're having to make up for that discount.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: And you know, Penny, one of the things that I
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: like about you, you advocate so much for parents to
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: trying to get them help and accommodations, which I'm going
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: to talk about in a second, that when we begin
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: to reframe adh this way and we recognize it it's
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: an invisible, intangible impairment. We talk about it, but because
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: we don't see it, we act like it's not there yet.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: The way I'm describing it now, we now have a
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: way of looking at it as a means to understand
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: that different. So I want to kind of pause and
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: give you an opportunity to clarify or ask any questions.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it explains so much. And one thing that
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: I've really struggled with with my own kid, and I
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: know so many other parents do as well, is avoiding
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: discomfort or perceived potential discomfort. And now that makes more
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: sense from a science perspective, from a biology perspective that
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: of course you're doing that because you have to put
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: in more. There's more discomfort than your peers sitting next
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: to you. You're facing a more difficult challenge, which we know.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: But unpacking it this way, I think, really drives it
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: much closer home, makes it much more tangible. As you
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: were saying, yeah, I was just talking to somebody else
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: about this being invisible, there's an invisible disability basically, and
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: it complicates being able to get the accommodations and things
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: like that that we're going to talk about as well.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, So I like to use this as a metaphor.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm looking at you and you have glasses on.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: Imagine if I made you try to read without them,
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: wouldn't happen? Wouldn't happen? Why? Because it's just too hard?
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: Too hard?
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, you might kind of bring the book up
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: it kind of like, I mean, there's all kinds of
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: things that you do, but take a lot of effort.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: My point really is is if I turn into a
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: physical disability, makes all the sense in the world. But
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: because it's cognitive, we can't see it, we tend to
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: act like it's not there. So the idea here really
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: it's one thing for me to say that, but anybody
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: listening to this is still like, Okay, we've got people
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: out there that we're trying to help. We'd like them
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: to be able to run their lives together, and so
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: what do you do? Well, That's why I'm framing this out,
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: because when you look at it this way, we take
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: an engineering approach, and I've a new field of engineering
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: called cognitive or economics from the inside out about adapting
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: task to the person that its drived off. This we
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: don't have to get a lot of detail of it,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: but when we go at this dilemma from an engineering mindset,
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: what we've got to do is we've got to do
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: something to bring these two forces back into equilibrium. So
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: what can we do. Let's talk about that and the
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: practicality of it. One is willpower, but let's think about that.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: What you're doing is saying I've got to expend a
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: lot of emotional effort to override my emotional urge to discourage.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: What I'm doing is I'm amping up my motions. I'm
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: not bringing equilibrium together. I'm actually making it actually worse.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: That doesn't logically make a lot of sense, So we
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: take that off the table. Next is rewards. Providing a reward,
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: and I'm going to argue that it will help, but
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: it will be limited. And I'm going to tell this
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: as a story. I was in DC several months ago
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: working with somebyists that Penny and I both know, and
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: I was actually at the nation's capital, and I was
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: imagining there's lots of steps going up the capitol and
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: I was imagining somebody at the bottom of the steps
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: without any legs or a wheelchair or a ramp, and
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: I began to imagine, I might provide a reward to
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: get them to crawl up all the steps of the Capitol,
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: but they're having to do it like literally on the ground,
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: and it's difficult. I might provide a reward to get
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: to the first step, and then the second step, and
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: then the third step, and I keep providing rewards to
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: try to get them up to the top, and they
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: get there. Now they're there. Wow, that was a lot
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: of work. There's a lot of effort. To do it
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: again is going to require more reward because really all
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: I'm doing is I'm providing a reward to amplify the emotion,
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: to endure the discomfort. So when you think about it,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: rewards have limitations because you have to keep up in
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: the rewards get the same stuff, and they're not really
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: bringing equilibrium back to these two forces. So it begins
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: to explain there's limitations in the reward system. So now
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: what's our alternative accommodations would be next? There are accommodations
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: for ADHD. But I've got a bone to pick with them,
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: and I'm going to pick on extra time.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: Not all of them are extra time, but I like
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: this one because it is commonplace, whether it's extra timelin
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: a test, or extra time to do a thing effectively. Penny,
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: all we're doing is allowing people a longer time to suffer. Yes,
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: we're not relieving the impairment.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: Thank you for saying it.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: We're just having you suffer longer. So let's think about this.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Let's say you gave a person with ADHD extra time
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: at work. You can do eight hours of work over
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: ten hours. Well, you're just given longer time to suffer,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: so your work longer. So you go from chronic emotional
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: pain to stretched out. In other words, this is what
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: burnout is because you're not able to recover. Again, we're
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: not really providing adaptive a commeddy. We're not really relieving
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: the impairment. We're just asking them to suffer. So that
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: doesn't really bring the balance to the impairment. Our alternative
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: is what I call adaptive accommodations. This is where we're
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: trying to provide and this is a big word, what
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: I call systemic relief. So, Penny, when your eyes are
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: impaired and you're trying to read. I could give the
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: extra time to read. I don't think that's going to
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: help any But if we give you glasses, it's mitigating
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: or eliminating the impairment. It's providing relief, and you're able
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: to function. So one of the things that I'm trying
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: to get this the whole new notion out there is
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: to change the narrative that we need to look at
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: adaptive accommodations. And you and I there's another podcast that
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: you and I had talked about that how direct oral
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: conversations were derived originally. Language was actually derived originally to
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: solve shared problems. And many times people with a digit
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: they just need to be able to talk through stuff.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: The clutter something is a lot easier if they're talking
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: with somebody like where do I put this thing? So
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: we're making a case for providing these adaptive accommodations to
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: relieve the impairment so people with ADH don't have to suffer.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: But what we're doing is ADSU is an executive function impairment,
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: which is intangible. Having a direct oral conversation is intangible.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: We're trying to equate the two to justify why that's
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: a legitimate accommodations, which, while I'm on my horse, pitty,
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: we have problems in any facet of our life, whether
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: it's personal or school, or work or psychological. Have you
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: ever thought about when you have a problem, what's the
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: go to? At school, you go talk to the teacher,
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: You go talk to a tutor, parents help you with homework.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: At work, you go to a boss a co worker.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: In the psychological world, you go talk to a therapist
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: or a coach. My point really is is direct oral
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: conversations is an adaptive accommodation for people with ADHD, yet
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: we don't recognize it. But the reason I'm so grateful
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: you're bringing me on the program is if we take
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: a look at this new model as a two four system,
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: and we acknowledge that ADHD is an executive function impairment,
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: we now begin to look at what used to look
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: like unmotivated or lazy. We begin to understand the plight.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: Then when we see that they do do something, we
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: recognize it probably took them more to get there. Now
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: we have a greater level of respect for the individual.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: So let's quit shaming everybody by saying they're lazy and unmotivated.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: Let's look at how they're motivated, because when we do that,
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: the answers that we find and how we help them
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: completely change.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: I'm so thankful that you said that we are just
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: prolonging the struggle, because this has been my argument for years.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: When we give kids more time because they have slower
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: processing speed, because they have executive function impairment, whatever it is,
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: all we're doing is punishing them, yep, to do the
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: same work in the same way. We're just prolonging the suffering,
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: as you said, and we don't get it because we
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: get so focused on fairness and how it has to
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: be equal time and equal amount of work. And so
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: I am just so thankful this conversation where we're actually
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: comparing compensatory with.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: Adaptive, yes, because then.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: We can start seeing this in a different way that
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: isn't going to prolong the suffering.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, I'm hoping.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: That we're going to talk about, like, what would adaptive
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: accommodations look like, what are some examples of those, so
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: that parents know where they can take this information and
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: put it in real life.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: So queueing, directorial conversation and toggling are issues. Those are
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: what what's queuing like? I'm going to try to get
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: into this a little bit because it's this is intense
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: stuff if you're not used to it, so bear with me. Yeah,
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of times, Penny, we retrieve knowledge by cues.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: People they tach like a lot of browser tabs are
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: open because if they close it, don't forget about it.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: In other words, you have a reminder out there's a queue.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: And so as an accommodation is if I sat down
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: with you in the morning and I said, Penny, what
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: do you got to do today?
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: One hundred things?
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: What could get in your way? What do you need
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: in order to get the things done for today? How
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: much time is it going to take you to do
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: this task? Right? Those are what I call queuing questions.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: I'm asking you to think. You would think that Penny
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: would do it in the morning. Neurotypicals would do it,
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: but people day dach because it's kind inteley difficult. It's harder.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: But when I ask the questions and she starts to
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: respond to me, I'm actually helping her retrieve the knowledge
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: that she has and to begin to think about her day.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: That is actually a intentingible accommodation. And I'm sure with
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: your kids and other people. Sometimes you sit down and say,
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: what happened in schools today? What is this paper got
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: to be about? You don't necessarily know it, but you're
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: actually getting them engaged in the thinking about. You're not
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: solving the problem. But that's one sitting down with somebody
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: and saying, hey, tell me what you're going to do,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: or tell me what you want to write about. We
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: talk about verbal processors in our world. For many people
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: with ADHD, not to talk is not to think. All
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: you have to do is engage, let them explain it
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: to you. They'll solve their own problem. Often there's another
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: real big challenge in our world today with what I
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: call toggling. And this is really difficult for me to describe.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: But when I was in college, I would buy used
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: books because, like somebody else highlighted and I would just
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: read the highlight. Imagine I'm reading a text and now
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: target I see some stuff in yellow that's important, and
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: I have some notes from class that are important. When
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: I put it in front of me, I don't have
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: to read a bunch of extra words. I just read
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: what's highlighted, and my eyes dart over and they look
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: at my notes, and I'm able to recognize it. This
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: is really I have an impaired ability to hold things
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: in my working memory. But it's not that bad in
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: our world today. You look at something on a screen,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: you can't really highlight it, so you have to read
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: a whole bunch of extra words to find what you're
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: looking for. Then you've got to think, oh, I got
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: to click on this tab, or I got to scroll.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: All these other instructions are coming between the part of
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: time you identify what you're reading and where you're going
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: to and by the time you get to where you
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: want to go, you can't remember what you read to
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: begin with. And so one of the things that I'm
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: really struggling with, I wouldn't want to be a student today.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: There's no printers like I did an interview with doctor
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: Russell Barkley back in twenty eighteen. We talked about how
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: papers high tech for people with ADC because if you
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: print it out, I can see it, and a lot
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: of school rules it's convenient for them to put this
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: stuff online. But if you have an executive function impairment
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: and you have limited capacity, you've already got a stressed
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: executive function and you're actually making it worse. But people
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: don't think in those terms. We've got to provide those
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: printers as an adaptive accommodation right for these people to
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: do it, or at least give them multiple screens. Nobody's
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: advocating for that today. Why because it's convenient for the
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: system to go digital. They're looking at their convenience. They're
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: not necessarily recognizing these impairments. Again, providing a printer is
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: to fit the job. The task to the individual, not
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: the individual have to figure out how they're going to
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: hold this in the working memory. Again, we're reversing it.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: It's no longer about the person changing their behavior, but
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: getting something to fit. You know, there's that Blindside is
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: a movie about Michael Orr and there's a part of
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: that movie where they're talking like they're like realizing the teachers.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: This guy knows what he has, but if you ask
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: him the question, he can explain it to you. But
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: he has a hard time getting on paper. Why is that?
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: Because there's a bottleneck between all these ideas and funneling
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: through that to get it all written down, they start
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: forgetting stuff. Yep, it was intelligent, but we had to
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: make those adjustments. So many of these adaptive accommodations are
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: a bit intangible I acknowledge, and they look like help
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: because there's somebody there that's that's guiding you with assistance.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: But they're there if you look at them, and it's
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: just really just a matter of tuning in. And you know,
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: if anybody's interested, we can I can send a list
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: of send stuff to them. But really, if we begin
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: to look at this and you look out into the world,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: people with the ay DHD really pretty function pretty well
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: when they're collaborating working with other people because they're helping
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: them with their executive functions. And the end of the day,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: we just got to change the way we look at it,
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: and we can really make a difference.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: And these are things that parents can ask for for school,
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: all these types of accommodations. My kid needs this work
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: on paper, not on their computer, or you know, my
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: kid needs to talk out the assignment with you before
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: they get started, or you know, like it does add
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: more time and effort on the teacher's part, but I
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: always feel like these sorts of things actually save time
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: on the back end because the struggle also takes time.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about this in the world of physical disabilities
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: we got wheelchair ramps, We've got braille, we got signers,
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: we have all kinds of accommodations for the tangible world.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: In the intangible world, we're talking about director all conversations
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: which often are built in I remember, Penny, when the
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: pandemic hit in lockdown hit, I thought I was going
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: to be at a job in sixty days because I'm
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: expensive and people were struggling. No, my phone lit up
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: like a Christmas tree. Adults will call me I'm unproductive,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: I lack motivation. I'm like, no, it has nothing to
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: do with that. You were in an environment that had
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: direct oral conversation. It's no longer there. You're having to
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: do this in mind, you haven't changed. It was providing
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: the environment. You just didn't know it. And any Rodgers
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Attitude magazine was once said ADC is amplified or muted
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: based off of the environment. This would begin to explain it.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: And so it's already kind of there, but it's not there.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: It's not condoned. And so whether it's a student that
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: might need just like to be able to talk out loud,
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: or an adult that needs somebody to just say, hey,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: what are you doing? Can I help you think through
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: the problem where you can say I need somebody to
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: come in. Like I said, it's already there, and it's
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: already taken place to a certain level, even on the
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: neurotypical level. It's just because the impairment people of ADC
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: just need more and they need the ability and right
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: now you might have to fight it. But that's why
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: I've always loved you. You've always let me come on
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: to your podcast and talk about things that are out there,
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: and this one is really near and dear to my heart,
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: because we've got to change the way people look at
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: it so that these things are provided to the kids
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: and you don't have to fight for them. Yes, And
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: you know you're in advocacy and I'm in advocacy. We're
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: fighting that stuff. So we're both people on the same charge.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: And you know, I'm a fan of yours because it's
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: really about helping parents do this and trying to get
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: the rest of the public that looks at behavior and
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: infers what's going on in the brain, like the person's lazy, No,
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: there's an impairment. By the way, you can take tests,
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: cognitive tests that show that there's an impairment, whether there's
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: a diagnosis or not. And my program, cognitive Orgonomics from
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: the inside out's not adhd orgonomicies. These concepts apply to
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: anybody with an executive function impairment. Anybody.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And you know you are reminding me
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: talking about advocacy my solo cast on the podcast that
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: published today. Actually, as we're recording, this is about how
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: we need to provide dignity and humanity to neurodivergent students
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: because we're robbing them of that when we don't give
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: them the appropriate accommodation, the adaptive accommodation. We are robbing
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: them of dignity and humanity and it is traumatizing. Like,
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: you know, my kid is twenty three and is still
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: doesn't believe that he could do any higher education or
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: take any classes that he would not succeed at them.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: He has a high aque, he's twice exceptional, he's brilliant,
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: and yet we are still trying to undo all of
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: the damage done in our traditional education system by not
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: looking at it as an impairment and making adaptations instead
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: of trying to give more time and put on more
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: pressure and ask for more motivation. Right, and so this
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: is a soapbox issue for me as well, because we
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: are harming kids.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: I'd like to share my personal story on this is.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: I have adacy, but I have dyslexi, which is really
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: one of the bigger issues. And when I was in
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: high school, I couldn't handle chemistry or English much matter,
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: much less Spanish, so I wasn't I didn't even take
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: college prep. I was just getting a degree to get out.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: I was fortunate enough to be an athlete and to
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: get on scholar a swimming scholarship. And when I got
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: to school, I had unlimited tutors. I think the second
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: semester of my sophomore year I had the highest tutoring
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: BIL in Indiana University. Wow. And so because I adapted
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: and I worked with tutors, I had the director oral conversation.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: My English teachers are rolling over in the grave to
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: think that I got my MBA. Not only did I
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: get it, but I almost I didn't take I didn't
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: do a paper in my first class because I never
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: dreamed I get four to oh. But I would have
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: gotten a four to oh. What's the point comparing and
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: contrasting where I am. I never thought I would be
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: able to get a graduate degree much less be successful.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: The difference was I had the adaptive accommodations and I
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: didn't have a problem emotionally going to ask for help.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: That can be the difference. And I'm not going to
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: say that I'm bright, but I think I brought a
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: few things into this world that's kind of worthwhile. And
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of untapped talent. I don't personally feel
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: that ADHD is a gift. It's not something you would
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: wrap up and give to somebody present. However, people have gifts,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: and the issue is add gets in the way. So
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: we could provide those accommodations so it doesn't get in
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: the way their natural gifts can come forward. And there's
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: so many people with ad issue that have contributed a
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: lot to our world, which goes back to your point,
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: why are we so cruel and inhumane by making these
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: suffer only because we can't actually see the impairment. It
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: really comes down to that, like just because you can't
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: see a million dollars doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't see it and you don't understand it, yep.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: And that's where you know. Teachers have the best of
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: intentions and they like kids. They want kids to do well.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: They wouldn't be a teacher. They just don't get this information.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: They're not taught about learning differences, Adhd.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: You make a good point. They're well intended people, but
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: they're not This isn't common vernacular. They're not taught to
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: think of it this way. They're not given the support
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: to do what they need to do. So I'm glad
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: you brought this up. This is not a knock on them.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: They if they knew the answer. But the cool part,
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: Penny is you'll let me come on and people can
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: judge this on their own Marat. But the logic of
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: this makes so much sense to me that I'm hoping
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: that parents will get this and think about this, watch
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: this a couple times, go talk to other people about it.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: From this vernacular, I think you'll have a really difficult
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: time arguing against And if somebody like is going to
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: argue it, it's because they don't want to be confused
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: the facts because their mind is already made up and
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: they're just you're not going to get them. But the
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: people that are on fence go, wow, that actually makes
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: a lot of sense, and we can change the world
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: slowly that way.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, Jeff tell everybody where they can learn more
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: about this and your work online.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: My website is digcaching dot com. That's like d ig
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: like dig a whole coaching dot com. We're talking about
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: this new theory of motivation was divided by cognive ergonomics
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: on the inside out. On my page if you click
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: on services, I do have a program on this. If
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: you have a teacher that you know or other people
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: that you think could be beneficient of that as a parent,
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: if you're interested, you could take the class not required.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: It can be very helpful to understand ADC at a
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: deeper level. But I am trying to get to hr
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: specialist disability specialist teachers, therapists and coaches because this new
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: lens changes and refrains how we're looking at things so
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: that they can be a little bit more effective. And
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: so I'm just saying that is because I'm trying to
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: change the world with regard to that. And again, if
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: I can get to the professionals that help people with ADHD,
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: we can really make an impact. So again it'stigcaching dot com.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: And I will link that up in the show notes
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: for everyone at Parenting ADHD and Autism dot com Jeff.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: Always a pleasure. I always learn so much, I get inspired,
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: I feel hopeful after this conversation so many things, and
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: I really appreciate it.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: Penny, you truly are a thought leader. Like so much
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: of what you do is just help people out there
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: that are need There's a lot of other people in
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: this space that are really more concerned about the dollar,
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: but you really care about everybody, and I just have
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: to give it back to you. You're such a resource
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: for everybody. Thank you for doing what you do.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: Thank you for noticing saying that. Always a pleasure. Well,
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: I will end here and I will see everybody next time.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: Take good care. I see you. You're doing hard and
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: meaningful work and you don't have to do it alone.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: who needs it and leave a quick review so others
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: can find this support too. When you're ready for next steps,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: the Regulated Kid's Project is here with the tools, coaching,
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: and community to help you raise a more regulated, resilient child.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: Get more info at regulated kids dot com.