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A Harsh Reality About Women in the Workforce with Dr. Jennifer Todd · The Menopause Disruptor Podcast

• 0:00
  It took me a while to really open my eyes to how unfairly women are treated in the workplace, honestly, by both men and women supervisors, which is a sad commentary.
• 0:16
  But by the time I reached my late 30s, early 40s, I was fully awake, and the beauty of aging, and I joke about this sometimes with my students, here is my basket of Fs, and you will notice that it is empty.
• 0:37
  So I'm not being explicit.
• 0:38
  You don't have to put an E, but my F basket, once you reach a certain age, they're all gone.
• 0:45
  Welcome back to the Menopause Disruptive Podcast, and today we're getting punchy, we're getting disruptive, provocative, and deeply personal to the female experience in the workplace.
• 0:56
  This episode really frames menopause as much more than a health issue.
• 1:00
  It is a workplace, economic, and power issue.
• 1:04
  Let me ask you this: What happens when the very systems designed to support women's health and careers actually begin working against them?
• 1:12
  Today's conversation takes us into some uncomfortable, edgy, but incredibly important territory: women, work, power, aging, and menopause.
• 1:24
  Today, I'm joined by my next guest, Dr.
• 1:27
  Jennifer Todd, a public health physician specializing in women's and children's health, whose career has taken her through public health, federal government, and now today, leadership coaching.
• 1:39
  Jennifer brings a fascinating perspective to the conversation because she doesn't just look at women's health through an individual medical lens.
• 1:46
  She looks at the systems and structures surrounding women and what happens when those systems fail us.
• 1:53
  Today, we will talk about the enormous gap that exists in women's health research, the politics that have influenced what we know and don't know about women's bodies, and why midlife can become a particularly vulnerable time for women in the workplace.
• 2:09
  We will get into ageism, the gender wage gap, psychological safety, workplace discrimination, and menopause accommodations, including the disturbing reality that asking for support for menopause symptoms can sometimes be used as evidence that a woman is no longer performing at the level expected of her.
• 2:30
  And perhaps most importantly, we will talk about what women can actually do when they find themselves in toxic or psychologically unsafe work environments, and why individual resilience isn't enough.
• 2:43
  Because if women are being pushed out, paid less, and made to feel less valuable as they move through midlife, that's not simply a personal problem.
• 2:52
  It's a systemic problem, and changing it requires more than telling women to cope better.
• 2:58
  So let's get into it.
• 3:00
  Please join me in welcoming Dr.
• 3:02
  Jennifer Todd to the Menopause Disruptor Podcast.
• 3:06
  I am joined today with Dr.
• 3:09
  Jennifer Todd, a doctor of public health specializing in the health of women and children, and she's done research on ageism in the job market.
• 3:18
  Currently, she is a leadership coach helping professionals facing toxic or high-pressure work environments to develop effective strategies to manage stress, navigate difficult dynamics, and regain a sense of control and clarity.
• 3:33
  This is gonna be such an impactful conversation.
• 3:36
  Dr.
• 3:36
  Jennifer, welcome to the Menopause Disruptor Podcast.
• 3:41
  Thank you.
• 3:41
  It's my pleasure to be here, and I look forward to our discussion.
• 3:45
  I am really looking forward to this.
• 3:48
  This is why I was drawn to your work.
• 3:50
  Ageism in the workplace, lack of research, these are all the things that we on this podcast, myself and my guests, disrupt.
• 3:59
  We have to break down those barriers, and so what you have to offer, I can't wait to get into it.
• 4:05
  But I always ask my guests this one particular question that sets the stage.
• 4:10
  Dr.
• 4:10
  Jennifer, what landed you into this line of work?
• 4:15
  I'd like to say that my first love was public health, because I met public health before I met my husband.
• 4:23
  But I just saw around me that the health of women and children, s- particularly women during a lack of research, a lack of programs, a lack of medical healthcare attention to women and children, and I thought,"That is my why.
• 4:47
  That is what I want to address." Mm-hmm.
• 4:50
  And so I went to school and got my doctorate in public health, and I focused on the health of women and children.
• 4:57
  And when I was working on my dissertation, I decided that I would write my dissertation on hormone replacement therapy.
• 5:06
  Right as I was getting going on my dissertation, the Women's Health Initiative, or the Women's Health Study, that was launched, I think, in 1996.
• 5:18
  It was the largest study of its kind on women.
• 5:21
  Oh.
• 5:21
  I think there were 30,000 women enrolled, which promised to provide some answers, a scientific basis for moving forward in women's health.
• 5:33
  And I was so excited to contribute in a small way by looking at the data that they were generating.
• 5:39
  But that study was pulled for safety reasons, and also some political reasons.
• 5:49
  Yeah.
• 5:49
  But so I had to real fast come up with a new topic.
• 5:53
  But that was my introduction to how politicized the health of women just inherently is.
• 6:01
  Yeah.
• 6:02
  And we don't see it until it really impacts us personally.
• 6:08
  I think we, we see it more now because it is definitely in our face right now.
• 6:15
  But 20, 30 years ago we just accepted the norm and, okay, it's not safe to take HRT.
• 6:23
  All right, I guess I'll study something else.
• 6:25
  I'll find something else to study.
• 6:27
  And then I always in the back of my mind had this, this lingering doubt about...
• 6:34
  Because I teach biostatistics, I've looked at the study, and it didn't add up.
• 6:40
  That's not what- we're here to talk about.
• 6:42
  But I stepped into women's health naively, thinking,"I'm gonna make things better for women," and it turned out to be a much heavier lift than this one graduate student could do.
• 6:57
  And even this one, I went to work for the federal government in the United States and working in women's health.
• 7:03
  And yeah, found out real fast that the work was more about politics than it was about health.
• 7:10
  Wow.
• 7:11
  Wow.
• 7:12
  My goodness.
• 7:12
  We could take this in all kinds of directions, but that's not what we're particularly going to be talking about.
• 7:17
  But the Women's Health Initiative, I love that you said it promised to be.
• 7:23
  It promised to be.
• 7:25
  And then, like you said, political will got in the way, and it was the wrong group of women, the wrong age, looking at the wrong data markers.
• 7:36
  And I've spoken to this.
• 7:37
  Several of my guests have spoken to this, so.
• 7:40
  But in terms of having to switch gears and taking away the dissertation on HRT into another focus, what then became apparent to you as you started to delve into this new area of research that was either promising or lacking?
• 7:57
  Yeah.
• 7:58
  So I started studying infant mortality in indigenous populations in the United States.
• 8:04
  I got really deep in huge data sets, and I learned so much from, from the very generous and patient indigenous communities and researchers that were patient enough to work with me and answer my naive questions, what was happening and why babies were dying, because the rates of infant mortality in the indigenous population in the United States was about three to four times that of white babies.
• 8:36
  So that's what I wrote my dissertation on.
• 8:39
  And I like to think that made some small difference, but I'm glad to report, despite the rough road that took me, or the long and winding path that took me to studying infant mortality, not because of me, but because of lots of hard work by lots of groups, the rate of infant mortality in the indigenous population has come down dramatically.
• 9:04
  So that's a little bit of good news to hold onto.
• 9:08
  That full gamut, the full spectrum from infant mortality right through to looking at the other end of the spectrum of women moving through menopause.
• 9:18
  Yes.
• 9:19
  Mm-hmm.
• 9:20
  And that's, that's a huge spectrum.
• 9:21
  Still very curious, though, how did you start honing in?
• 9:24
  And you needed to look at what was happening for women's health, but not only that, supporting them in the workplace.
• 9:41
  So I naively thought that, again, first kind of real salaried full-time job with benefits and all the things that are so difficult to find these days.
• 9:56
  I just thought,"Okay.
• 9:57
  Well, I've got these two fancy letters in front of my name, so I'll be able to make change." But it turns out that those two fancy letters and the amount of student debt that I ran up, and honestly just paid off not that long ago, was not greater than having a Y in my chromosomes.
• 10:19
  Yeah.
• 10:19
  Yeah So that having two Xs put me still at the bottom of the hierarchy of however.
• 10:28
  Just naively being treated less than my male counterparts, and being awake to that, and it took me a while to really open my eyes to how unfairly women are treated in the workplace, honestly, by both men and women supervisors, which is a sad commentary.
• 10:54
  But by the time I reached my late 30s, early 40s, I was fully awake, and the beauty of aging is, and I joke about this sometimes with my students, here is my basket of Fs, and you will notice that it is empty.
• 11:16
  So I'm not being explicit.
• 11:17
  You don't have to put an E, but my F basket, once you reach a certain age, it, they're all gone.
• 11:25
  So I decided, you know what, I'm gonna just cause as much good trouble as I can.
• 11:31
  And so that's what I set out to do.
• 11:33
  I, I left the government.
• 11:35
  I started teaching, and I decided it's frankly too late for me because I had aged out of the workforce.
• 11:45
  I hear from women a lot that, younger women, like,"But that's not true." And the experience for younger women hopefully is different.
• 11:56
  Mm-hmm.
• 11:56
  But, and it hopefully will remain different.
• 12:00
  Hopefully we're in the middle of a big cultural change where age isn't viewed as a disqualifier, but as a good thing.
• 12:10
  But it very much, when I left the government and was looking for a job, it was very much I heard all the usual,"You're overqualified." After several rounds of interviews, someone told me, an HR person actually called me and said We have actually, our workforce is in general pretty young, and we just don't think because of your age that you would fit in with our team.
• 12:35
  Ooh.
• 12:36
  Which is against the law, but I just didn't have the financial resources to take on this enormous company, organization.
• 12:45
  And I knew that it was my word versus them.
• 12:48
  Right.
• 12:48
  So there are some phenomenal attorneys that I know of that would have helped me, but I just decided, okay, I gotta pick battles- Yeah and this isn't one for me right now.
• 13:01
  So I've written a lot about ageism, and one of the things that's I still continue to hear from my male friends and colleagues who are my age or older is that,"I've just gotta get back out there.
• 13:19
  I don't understand.
• 13:20
  You know, you really need to network more." Okay, yeah, been there for years, and the situation for older men is diametrically different than it is for women, and there is a mountain of research that proves that this is the case.
• 13:39
  Yeah.
• 13:40
  Um, women age out, and I'm using that term very loosely, and I don't mean to use that to discourage anyone- Right from taking, removing themselves from the workforce or thinking that there isn't a place for them in the workforce.
• 13:57
  I decided that the change that I needed to make was to shake things up from outside of an organization.
• 14:05
  But what my older male colleagues don't understand is that the experience for older women- And looking, and job search, and even in the workforce, is so much different than it is for them.
• 14:22
  Even my male friends who are allies for women, they don't have the lived experience, so they just don't understand.
• 14:31
  And I can cite statistics and research all day long, but until they feel it in their skin and they're ready to hear, because it requires them to hear that based on their chromosomes, they are receiving benefits that women do not receive.
• 14:52
  And it's not because they've done something.
• 14:55
  It's not dissimilar from a white person not understanding the privilege that we have versus a person of color.
• 15:04
  You have to understand it and own it before you can truly be an ally and truly understand the experience of a person of color, and I do not claim to be an expert in this.
• 15:18
  I work on it every day- Yeah so that I can be an ally to show up for people of color.
• 15:24
  But for men in the workplace, women advance slower, even if you control for leaving the workforce to take care of children.
• 15:37
  I never left the workplace.
• 15:39
  I had two weeks off.
• 15:41
  I had my daughter.
• 15:43
  I worked until my due date, had my daughter, went back to work.
• 15:46
  I had two weeks off, and then I went back to work.
• 15:49
  My husband got paternity leave because of his fabulous employer, and he got to take eight months off to stay with our daughter.
• 15:59
  So that, again, it's not the fault of any man who has a benefit that women don't have, but it's critical that they acknowledge that this disparity- Mm-hmm exists.
• 16:13
  So women advanced slower through the hierarchy or up the ladder, or however you wanna refer to that.
• 16:21
  It takes us longer to get to the top, if there's even a seat at the table at the top.
• 16:26
  And in general, I don't have the statistics right in front of me, but in general, there are a handful of women CEOs in the top 100 companies.
• 16:39
  Yeah.
• 16:40
  So we're not making it to the top, and it's not because we're not qualified, and it's not because we've taken time off to take care of kids.
• 16:49
  I'm trying not to throw men under the bus too much here, but, um Oh, go ahead.
• 16:53
  This is the Menopause Disruptor Podcast.
• 16:56
  Disruptor is what we do.
• 16:57
  Um, yeah.
• 16:59
  So men receive benefits from having the Y chromosome that women do not.
• 17:05
  Mm-hmm.
• 17:05
  And until we all, men and women, come to terms with that, it will remain in place, and there are plenty of men who are perfectly happy to take that benefit and blame women for taking time off- Yeah to care for kids, and,"Oh, well, you leave early to, to take your kids to baseball practice," and there's plenty of excuses.
• 17:33
  So there's that one.
• 17:34
  Then also women's earning potential, men's earning potential as they age, it grows exponentially.
• 17:44
  Women's earning potential, once you hit between 35 and 40, drops off a cliff.
• 17:53
  Wow.
• 17:53
  So this is something that is out of our control.
• 17:56
  Of course, there are examples of women that have risen to the top along with their salaries.
• 18:03
  Right.
• 18:04
  But some really good research done by the Federal Reserve Board of Governors in the United States has shown that women's earning potential drops precipitously as they age, and by the time you reach the age of 60, you can expect to earn about 30% of what you earned in your maximum salary.
• 18:30
  So whatever you maxed out at age 30, 35, if you were making$100,000,$100,000, when you reach 60, it's an informed guess that you can plan to be making 30 to$35,000.
• 18:47
  And this is where it's really critical for our male allies to understand we are not competing directly.
• 18:57
  They are shooting up, and we are shooting down.
• 19:01
  So when they ask us,"What did you make?
• 19:04
  What was your last salary?" That is inherently an unfair question because- The research shows us that women's incomes drop and men's go up.
• 19:17
  That's a generalization.
• 19:18
  That's not the case for every man, and it's not the case for every woman, of course.
• 19:23
  Mm-hmm.
• 19:23
  Someone will respond, they're like,"But that didn't happen to me." Of course.
• 19:27
  And this is really important, because if you become widowed between, at 60, 65 years old, and you're making a third of what you were making at your peak earning potential- Mm-hmm you're not making enough to live on.
• 19:43
  This is actually something that women have to plan for.
• 19:47
  Hopefully this is changing.
• 19:49
  Hopefully this is changing.
• 19:51
  Hopefully.
• 19:51
  Yeah.
• 19:52
  But, yeah, women have reached out to me.
• 19:54
  I've written pieces about this phenomenon, and women have written to me and said,"I wish when I was 35 years old someone had told me I have to be in my dream job at age 35 and not expect for it to come along sometime, you know, when I'm in my 40s or 50s." Yeah.
• 20:14
  "Because if I'm not in my dream job at age 35, I've missed it." Yeah.
• 20:19
  And there's truth in that.
• 20:21
  There is truth in that.
• 20:22
  My goodness.
• 20:23
  I would like to tap in.
• 20:24
  You mentioned that hopefully, hopefully that is changing.
• 20:27
  The future is changing.
• 20:28
  The shift is changing.
• 20:29
  The perspective, the understanding.
• 20:32
  Patriarchal systems are having a real challenge now, and they're breaking down slowly but surely.
• 20:40
  So let's talk about hope.
• 20:41
  Let's bring hope into the equation.
• 20:42
  Yes.
• 20:43
  And this is your line of work.
• 20:45
  This is your specialty, working with leadership in particular.
• 20:49
  Mm-hmm, yeah.
• 20:49
  So what strategies have you found most effective, then, for helping people regain a sense of fairness, equality, and in particular working with women so that they can feel that they have a little bit more they're a little bit more empowered?
• 21:05
  Yeah.
• 21:05
  Uh, psychological safety, for example.
• 21:08
  Yeah, so critical Wow And just the fact that that term on its own really was not widely accepted until, like, the last four or five years.
• 21:18
  Mm-hmm.
• 21:18
  So psychological safety is kind of a new concept.
• 21:24
  So let that sink in.
• 21:26
  Mm-hmm, yeah.
• 21:26
  So the idea of working in a safe environment and feeling psychologically safe is new.
• 21:35
  So I work with people who are in jobs that are dysfunctional or toxic or just not a healthy place for them to be, and try to come up with a plan for them to maintain their jobs, cope with the stress, leave it at work if possible.
• 21:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 21:59
  That's the ultimate goal, is not to bring it home.
• 22:02
  Mm-hmm.
• 22:02
  Because we all know that we spend more time If you have a nine-to-five job or an eight to six job, or you're expected to have your phone on you at all times, that you see your work colleagues more than you see your family.
• 22:21
  So to me, it's been a really important thing when I have interviewed for jobs to make it a two-way discussion.
• 22:31
  And they always say you're interviewing them for a fit as much as they're interviewing you, but that's not the case usually.
• 22:39
  When we're interviewing, and this is men as well as women, we have to fight through that interview.
• 22:46
  Even interviews that are abusive, and I have- Yeah done this myself.
• 22:51
  They're treating me like a child, being disrespectful, but we're acculturated to be, to keep people happy, to always be the yes person, to take on more than we can do.
• 23:06
  And when we're trying to get a job, we fight for it because we know there aren't 100 jobs in line waiting necessarily, a- a 100 more interviews waiting in line, especially in the economy right now.
• 23:24
  So fighting for that job, even when they're treating you awfully, first I would say if you're interviewing and you're getting flags, pass.
• 23:35
  Go on.
• 23:36
  Okay.
• 23:36
  If a red flag comes up in the interview, it is absolutely gonna come up in that job.
• 23:42
  Okay.
• 23:42
  But if you find yourself in the job and the red flags that you didn't see or you ignored and you thought,"Okay, once I get in and I find my way around and I find my advocates or my friends, it'll get better.
• 23:58
  It'll work out," sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't.
• 24:02
  And if you find yourself in a job that- Is not working out.
• 24:09
  I compare it to being in an almost an interpersonal violence relationship because- Wow.
• 24:18
  Yeah you have, you have to take it seriously.
• 24:21
  Not that, that your safety is in jeopardy.
• 24:24
  Your psychological safety is in jeopardy, and that is important.
• 24:28
  So you have to take steps to protect your psychological safety.
• 24:33
  If you do feel that your physical safety is in jeopardy, then you have to escalate your response.
• 24:40
  But making a plan, starting to come up with ways to cope with a, an, a dysfunctional or toxic or maybe a just, a job that's just not a fit for you and you need to move on, but you don't have something lined up yet.
• 25:00
  And this is the case right now because the job market is so tight.
• 25:05
  I know fellow PhDs who are not able to get jobs, work in retail, part-time jobs with...
• 25:15
  And there is nothing wrong with working retail.
• 25:17
  I have worked retail.
• 25:19
  But- They're not able to get an offer for a part-time retail job.
• 25:25
  So get, moving on from a job is, it's tough and it requires some planning, some thinking, and a strategy for how can I protect myself and wait this out while I'm coming up with...
• 25:46
  And I'll use the words escape plan, but I don't want to diminish- Mm-hmm this, the very real physical safety of women who are in interpersonal violence situations.
• 26:01
  But in order to move on- Yeah you do need to have a plan.
• 26:07
  Exactly.
• 26:07
  You need to- Yeah.
• 26:08
  Yeah.
• 26:08
  Yes.
• 26:09
  So- I see what you're saying.
• 26:10
  Right.
• 26:11
  Yeah.
• 26:11
  So you need to document things that are happening.
• 26:16
  Okay.
• 26:16
  So when it's...
• 26:17
  Yes.
• 26:18
  So document, document, document.
• 26:22
  Do not keep anything that you document on a computer at work.
• 26:28
  Okay.
• 26:28
  Because this is critical because your boss, your supervisor, you, whoever owns the company, it's their computer, and they can remote in- Confiscate, yeah and see whatever they- Yeah anytime, what you're doing on your computer.
• 26:44
  Interesting.
• 26:44
  Wow.
• 26:44
  Yeah.
• 26:45
  Yes.
• 26:45
  So if you're, you need to document, so either bring it, like, an iPad that is yours and you know will not- Just on your- Yes, but you have to be- Your phone?
• 26:55
  Yeah.
• 26:56
  Yes.
• 26:56
  Oh.
• 26:56
  Your phone on notes.
• 26:58
  You can- Mm-hmm if I'm really feeling paranoid, I will longhand write out things because I know I'm the only one that has a copy of this, and it, I take it home at the end.
• 27:12
  When I was in the situation, I would take it home every night.
• 27:17
  Same with iPad.
• 27:18
  It comes home with me.
• 27:20
  And I was always also really careful that- Your backup doesn't default to the Dropbox or the cloud or whatever.
• 27:31
  Your WiFi might start reaching out, looking for where to store documents, and it might grab onto a company cloud or Dropbox.
• 27:44
  Mm-hmm.
• 27:45
  And just, that's just something, it's unlikely to happen, but it's something to be aware of.
• 27:49
  Because if you are documenting things, then you want to be sure that that is kept secure, because it could also be used against you.
• 28:02
  Even if you're Depending on what kind of situation you're in, if you have a very unpleasant boss, they might see that you wanna leave your- Oh, yeah and they might start trumping up, they might start coming up with things that you are doing or making up things like,"Oh, you were late this day or that day," or,"You didn't turn in this assignment that I..." And it could be totally made up, but they're trying to build a case.
• 28:31
  Yeah, or I was gonna even say, make it more specific to menopausal women.
• 28:35
  Yeah.
• 28:35
  Look at those symptoms when you need- Yeah to take a break,'cause we're not supported.
• 28:39
  Those is, menopause symptoms are not well understood.
• 28:42
  But when we do have to take a little bit more of a timeout or are asking for a little bit more sick days, shifting around our schedule to accommodate for bad night's sleep or some of the pressures, the panic attacks, anything, and we start asking for a little bit more accommodation.
• 29:01
  Yeah.
• 29:02
  And suddenly that's not seen as being supportive, but you're looked at as being a troublemaker, you're being difficult, and that is, slowly starts to build a case on their end- Yeah to demonstrate why you are not qualified, not equipped- Mm-hmm not suitable, and passed o- therefore passed over for opportunities.
• 29:22
  Yeah.
• 29:22
  Promotion, or even getting a, a great assignment, for example.
• 29:27
  Because of the lack of- Yeah, sorry.
• 29:31
  Yeah.
• 29:31
  So the- They may say that you're asking for special favors that, you know- Yeah this woman or that woman didn't ask for it.
• 29:37
  Yeah.
• 29:37
  Why do you need it?
• 29:38
  Um- And health and safety should be looking at this to support all women.
• 29:42
  Uh, I love that- Yeah, exactly psychological safety.
• 29:45
  Yeah.
• 29:45
  Not a new term, but psychological safety, mental health safe- mental health and safety in the workplace doesn't have to just be the physical surroundings to make sure you're safe from harm.
• 29:56
  It is- Yeah very much, in fact, the mental load, the stress load that can impact work.
• 30:03
  And not very many organizations are looking at this, but it's changing, that we have seen some work compensation boards are now creating documents to enforce this in the workplace.
• 30:13
  But until it's well-known, it's brush it under the carpet.
• 30:17
  We didn't see that.
• 30:17
  We don't know that policy exists, so why would we even worry about it?
• 30:20
  And let's continue on in the way that we're working.
• 30:24
  But I wanna just summarize some of the, the key things that you did raise about strategies, and that is to recognize the psychological safety and the toxicity in the workplace, and ensure that you're safe by documenting.
• 30:40
  Also recognizing if you're applying for a job, if it doesn't feel right, trust that instinct, that is that wise woman's knowledge, that intuitive power what we have, that this would not be the right place to work.
• 30:53
  So rather than diving in with all that energy, oh, this is a great job opportunity- Yeah.
• 30:58
  Mm-hmm see those warning signs, yes.
• 31:01
  And again, that is in your line of work, too.
• 31:04
  But also workplace safety.
• 31:06
  Does it help for a woman if she's documenting it?
• 31:09
  Again, it's like she said, he said.
• 31:12
  Does it...
• 31:12
  Is it helpful to call in a witness?
• 31:15
  Call in a friend?
• 31:17
  So I always advise to really be careful about sharing at work.
• 31:23
  Okay.
• 31:24
  We wanna believe that we have this friend and we can...
• 31:28
  I've made this friend at work and I can tell her or him, but most likely her.
• 31:33
  We share everything.
• 31:35
  I can tell her how mad I am at this boss or what happened in that meeting and how I was belittled, whatever.
• 31:42
  But you have to be really careful who you trust.
• 31:48
  And it's painful to say that, but I have seen those situations flip.
• 31:55
  Because you share something that you think you just need to blow off some steam.
• 32:01
  Find someone that you know is safe, and usually that is someone not affiliated with the organization.
• 32:09
  Okay.
• 32:10
  An old friend, a spouse, a sibling, someone that you know that- You can unload and debrief and they will be supportive.
• 32:20
  Mm-hmm.
• 32:20
  And that is not information that is likely to be shared.
• 32:26
  Even if you say,"Look, please don't tell anyone, but..."'Cause that can boomerang against you, especially if you've been in an organization for 15, 20 years and you really know a person and you've been through a lot and you have a solid friendship, then trust your gut.
• 32:45
  But default- Trust your gut yes.
• 32:48
  Your gut will always tell you the truth, so don't dismiss what your gut is telling you.
• 32:54
  And if that means when your gut says,"This is not the job for me," or your gut says,"I should not have been spoken to like that in this meeting," listen to your gut.
• 33:07
  And so- That's an interesting point, Dr.
• 33:09
  Jennifer, because we not only silence...
• 33:12
  are silenced, I should say, by the male counterparts or many other voices around us, and you even mentioned it, even, even female colleagues that I've found in my experience, younger female colleagues that have not entered the menopause phase and so have no clue.
• 33:26
  And if I don't know about it, I don't have to be empathetic.
• 33:29
  Yeah.
• 33:29
  But, yeah.
• 33:30
  And then because we've become so accustomed to being silenced, we in turn silence ourselves.
• 33:37
  Yep.
• 33:38
  Yeah.
• 33:38
  And it's a real- Yeah muscle that has to be strengthened, honed.
• 33:42
  Yes.
• 33:42
  Yeah.
• 33:43
  So that one is hard because when you come out of a meeting and you've just been berated or humiliated or your boss put his hand on your thigh inappropriately, you just wanna vent.
• 33:57
  And that is totally understandable.
• 34:00
  But you need- Yeah to be careful about venting in the workplace.
• 34:05
  And here is kind of the tell.
• 34:07
  If you need to go someplace that- quiet, like,"Oh, I can't go there because someone might hear," or,"We can't talk here because someone might hear," then that's probably not something that you should share in the workplace.
• 34:21
  Get your phone out, go outside where you won't be heard, be farther enough away that your discussion will not be overheard, and share with someone that you know will be safe.
• 34:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 34:33
  But if you're feeling like,"Oh, I gotta tell you what just happened.
• 34:37
  Let's go into the break room," or,"Let's go into, what's, that corner office that's always empty because it's quiet and nobody will hear us." Mm.
• 34:47
  That should be, your gut should be sounding some bells.
• 34:51
  Like, why is it that, that you need to keep that quiet?
• 34:55
  And if you don't want anyone outside that office to hear, you better not- Mm say it in that office, because how do you know that someone isn't right on the other side of the wall?
• 35:08
  And workplace walls are thin as paper now, so I mean, just in, generally speaking.
• 35:15
  Yeah.
• 35:15
  Gotcha.
• 35:16
  You just can't, I don't want people to feel like every conversation is being listened to, but when you are venting about a supervisor, you have to be careful about that because- Kind of rule that I try to follow and I try to share with people that I work with is don't say anything in the workplace that you wouldn't say to the person if they were standing right behind you.
• 35:46
  Yeah, okay.
• 35:47
  Because if they happen to- Right walk up while you're complaining about something they just said in a meeting, do you want them to hear you saying,"Can you believe that person- Right said that to me?
• 36:00
  It was so inappropriate," and they just happen to be right behind you.
• 36:04
  Yeah.
• 36:05
  Dr.
• 36:05
  Jennifer, this is You have lots of good strategies of which you share in your coaching program, but I do want to add in some rapid-fire questions so we can hone in- Yeah on exactly your specialty.
• 36:18
  So let's just get right into that.
• 36:21
  And also feel free to elaborate more on your expertise in helping build leadership and resilience.
• 36:27
  But with these rapid-fire questions, it'll give us a little bit more about who Dr.
• 36:31
  Jennifer is.
• 36:32
  Okay.
• 36:32
  So, good.
• 36:34
  First one off the bat is biggest myth about menopause.
• 36:38
  I think that's a really hard one to answer because we talk so little about it, even amongst e- other women.
• 36:47
  I would have said when my mother was going through menopause, she was on HRT, and that was, you got your pack of pills.
• 36:56
  I don't remember, it was a couple of years she took HRT.
• 36:59
  And it was nothing.
• 37:01
  And from what I observed, she was old- obviously an older generation, and they didn't talk about.
• 37:07
  It's just, it was taboo.
• 37:08
  You just don't talk about it.
• 37:10
  But it, it didn't seem to be a f- really a physiological determining point or shift in your health and wellbeing.
• 37:21
  And I don't mean that, like, your health and wellbeing turns better or worse, it just changes.
• 37:27
  Yeah.
• 37:28
  We've given a lot of that best piece of career advice for women over 40, but how about one workplace policy you'd love to see become standard?
• 38:25
  More flexibility for women to take personal days, not have to explain it, not to have to schedule it in advance.
• 38:34
  Like, make sure it's on the vacation calendar three months in advance or six month- Ah I was in a job that we had to, at the start of every year, put every day off we wanted for the entire calendar year, or we didn't get it.
• 38:48
  Oh my goodness.
• 38:49
  How would you...
• 38:57
  I mean, yeah.
• 38:58
  Things come up.
• 38:58
  Y- exactly.
• 38:58
  There's no- Even if you're- that's so rigid.
• 38:58
  Yeah, so more flexibility for sure.
• 38:58
  Yeah.
• 38:58
  And more understanding that it's a physiological phenomenon, it's not whining.
• 39:05
  And speaking of wine, just go home and have a glass of wine.
• 39:10
  That is not the answer.
• 39:10
  Yeah, it's not.
• 39:10
  It's not the answer.
• 39:12
  Although it might, it might help you relax, that is not going to help solve any of your problems.
• 39:18
  True.
• 39:19
  This is so true.
• 39:21
  Okay, next question up is one habit that protects your own resilience That is a really good question.
• 39:32
  In the public health community, we're having a, a hotly debated discussion right now about resilience.
• 39:38
  What is it?
• 39:39
  We use it a lot, but how do we even bracket what we're talking about?
• 39:44
  So how do we maintain our resilience?
• 39:48
  I think just listening to our bodies, listening to what our bodies are telling us before our bodies have to shout for us to listen.
• 39:59
  Ah, yeah, and that's a real skill set.
• 40:02
  It takes time to really get to know yourself, not just from a physical perspective, but understand how the nervous system reacts- Yeah how it shows up in the body.
• 40:12
  Very...
• 40:13
  A lot of somatic work indeed.
• 40:16
  Let's end with one really powerful closing question.
• 40:19
  If every woman listening today could remember just one thing about our conversation, what would you want that message to be?
• 40:27
  So I think that I would want women to come away from our discussion understanding that this is a normal process that most women go through.
• 40:41
  We don't get the validation that we should by employers, by spouses.
• 40:47
  In general, we don't get...
• 40:49
  The experience isn't validated, and that doesn't mean that we take to our beds for months at a time or...
• 40:56
  What it means- Yeah is you need to do what you need to do to take care of you.
• 41:01
  And- Yes I don't think you need to explain to anyone.
• 41:04
  That's the goal, the penultimate.
• 41:07
  Your boss is gonna want you to explain if you're out for a week, but what I would like to see is for your boss to say,"Got it." And soon, hopefully, there'll be policies that will accommodate that.
• 41:20
  Yes.
• 41:21
  That should be a no-brainer.
• 41:22
  It's sad that we have to even make a policy for it, but as you have alluded to throughout this podcast, sexism and ageism is alive and well, and these are big hurdles that women have to work around, uh, and jump to get through all those hurdles, those obstacles getting in the way of achieving the same success that her male counterparts achieves.
• 41:49
  Yeah.
• 41:49
  Dr.
• 41:49
  Jennifer, where can people find you, work with you?
• 41:52
  Please share.
• 41:54
  The best way to reach me is my email, which is jennifer@jtoddwellness.com.
• 42:02
  So it's just J for Jennifer, Todd, T-O-D-D,@wellness.com.
• 42:09
  Okay, Dr.
• 42:10
  Jennifer, we'll get that in the show notes.
• 42:11
  And are you in social?
• 42:13
  We'll get those in, on our show notes as well.
• 42:16
  Thank you.
• 42:16
  Yeah.
• 42:17
  It's been a great conversation.
• 42:19
  We've hit a lot of hot topics, but this is the reality, and unfortunately we're still navigating it, but it's, that is shifting one conversation at a time, like this one, and I appreciate your time, your energy, and sharing on the Menopause Disruptive Podcast.
• 42:34
  Oh, absolutely.
• 42:35
  My pleasure.
• 42:36
  Mary Lee: That was pretty intense conversation with Dr.
• 42:39
  Mary Lee: Jennifer Todd.
• 42:39
  Mary Lee: But here's the truth.
• 42:41
  Mary Lee: Not everything that we're gonna discuss in menopause is glamorous.
• 42:46
  Mary Lee: This conversation is a reminder to all of us that we have to advocate for our health We have to advocate for our status in the workforce.
• 42:54
  Mary Lee: We and we have to take agency.
• 42:56
  Mary Lee: I wanna recap in this summary, things that I found quite significant and worth mentioning again.
• 43:03
  Mary Lee: First of all, trust red flags issues that are present during interviews will persist in the job.
• 43:08
  Mary Lee: So if you're feeling it, particularly in your body, know that this will be present from the moment you step in for that interview right through to every day that you're working.
• 43:17
  Mary Lee: as wise women, we have to get out of the thinking mind and start to feel in.
• 43:22
  Mary Lee: Feel into what is our gut telling us, feel what our intuition is telling us.
• 43:26
  Mary Lee: Feel it in the entire body, which is another key takeaway from this conversation.
• 43:31
  Mary Lee: Resilience starts with physical self-awareness.
• 43:34
  Mary Lee: Second, document everything.
• 43:36
  Mary Lee: Don't just file all the good feedback.
• 43:39
  Mary Lee: File things that didn't seem to go well, whether you're using your phone or personal iPad, device, even handwritten notes.
• 43:46
  Mary Lee: but don't do it on your work computer keep it personal.
• 43:49
  Mary Lee: Keep it safe And that also comes in line with venting.
• 43:53
  Mary Lee: Vent outside the organization.
• 43:55
  Mary Lee: Vent outside people within your organization.
• 43:58
  Mary Lee: Share your concerns with a trusted non-work colleague, be it your spouse, a sibling, a friend, rather than your workplace peers I like this one.
• 44:06
  Mary Lee: Apply the stand right behind you rule.
• 44:09
  Mary Lee: Don't say anything at work you wouldn't say directly to a person being discussed And that has a lot to do with, something Nicole Johnson shared with us in a previous episode about personal brand.
• 44:20
  Mary Lee: Who you are, your integrity and what you stand for, How you act, how you speak, it all goes towards how people perceive you and your personal brand
• 44:30
  Speaker: If there's one thing I hope you take away, though, from this conversation today is that menopause is not simply a personal health issue.
• 44:38
  Speaker: It's a workplace issue, a leadership issue, and ultimately a cultural issue.
• 44:44
  Speaker: We can't create healthier workplaces by asking women to simply cope, stay quiet, or push through.
• 44:50
  Speaker: Organizations have an opportunity to do better.
• 44:54
  Speaker: And this might start with bringing in a menopause at work educator to help your organization understand what menopause actually means in the workplace and how it affects performance, confidence, communication, and overall well-being.
• 45:10
  Speaker: And why creating space for these conversations matter.
• 45:13
  Speaker: From there, organizations can begin developing thoughtful workplace policies, educating managers and employees, and creating clear pathways for discussing reasonable accommodations without stigma, embarrassment, or fear of being perceived as less capable.
• 45:31
  Speaker: Because psychological safety, as we heard in this episode, means being able to say,"I'm struggling today, and I need a little extra support," without worrying that asking for help will damage your career.
• 45:44
  Speaker: So if you're a leader, an HR professional, a business owner, or a workplace health and safety manager who might be listening today, I encourage you to ask yourself,"Is menopause something women in my organization are expected to manage quietly?
• 46:01
  Speaker: Or is there something our workplace is prepared to support openly?" if you'd like help moving you from awareness to action, I offer menopause at work education and workplace workshops.
• 46:12
  Speaker: Education that is designed to help organizations become more menopause aware, support meaningful conversations around accommodations, and create psychologically safer workplaces where women can thrive through midlife and beyond.
• 46:25
  Speaker: You can find out more through the link in my show notes below.
• 46:28
  Mary Lee: If you're interested in learning more about Jennifer Todd's work, you can find her at jtoddwellness, and that will be in the show description below.
• 46:37
  Mary Lee: And you can also contact her directly through her email jennifer@jtoddwellness.com
• 46:44
  If you're feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or unsure how to move forward in a challenging workplace, she is there to help you create that path to support both your well-being and your professional growth.
• 46:53
  So if this conversation is meaningful and resonates with you or someone else you know who is struggling in the workplace to find that psychological safety and advance in their career, please share this episode with someone who can greatly benefit from this conversation.