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Life, Death, Creative Living, and Queerness · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:02
  Speaker A: Welcome to the Gay Men Going deeper podcast, a podcast series by the gay men's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. I'm your host, Reno Johnston, and I'm a spiritual life, love and business coach. And I'm so excited because today we're joined by a special guest, poet, artiste, author, solpreneur, activist, shaman, and one of my dearest friends, Keone Wales. So Keone has published books, including love Songs for Boys, Book of Moons, and his most recent book, ghost, of which I actually have a hard copy of. They are not for sale anymore. This one is not for sale anymore. But love songs for Boys and Book of Moons is still available online, and they're all published through LA Puss Press, which Keone created in 2021. So if you haven't already picked up on it, he's quite the creator, he's quite the creative, among other things. So, Keone, I'm so happy you're here today. I was so excited about this conversation, and I know when we started speaking yesterday, I almost had to, like, bite my tongue because we had to save some for everybody, you know, we had to save some for everybody.
• 1:26
  Speaker B: Oh, bless you, love. It's so brilliant to be here and see you, and thank you for inviting me.
• 1:31
  Speaker A: You're welcome. So I'm, I guess, like, where I want to start, because there's a few things I feel like I want to cover today. Everything from, you know, like, authorship and writing you're creating in your artwork, activism, and then, as we touched on yesterday, queerness. But I guess before we get into all of that, I'd be curious to know, like, how are we meeting you today? How are we finding you today? And what's the live for you in this moment?
• 2:05
  Speaker B: I love that question. Yeah, it's been a ride. You know, I spoke to a friend of mine recently, and we agreed that since COVID at every stage where it feels like the madness can't get any more mad, she gets more mad. And, um. Yeah, like, uh, at the. At the moment, you know, the rain has come. Uh, it's nearly the longest day in. I'm in. I'm in Wales in the northern hemisphere. It's nearly the longest day, and I am in. Like, I'm in my woolly hat. I had my jacket on today. Like, everything feels like we're suddenly in a different part of the cycle of the year. And I feel like that is the day to day reality now. Is that the expected. The stable, the structures are collapsing. And so I think we touched on this some years back, it's like being on the face of an iceberg, and the ice is just carving and sliding off, and. And you can either cling on to what's falling or you can find your way to ride the wave.
• 3:18
  Speaker A: Exactly.
• 3:19
  Speaker B: See where you go. And so, yeah, we move. We move.
• 3:24
  Speaker A: You know, honestly, it's so synchronistic. Like, that's the perfect segue, because I had a question that I was really wanting to ask you, which is, like, what would you say is behind how you move in and through the world? And I'll preface that question by saying that one of the things that I've come to really love and appreciate and admire about you, and it's also been really, what's the word? Like, it's been permission for me. Like, you. Like who you are and how you be in the world. How you show up in the world and move in the world has been, like, validating and affirming and inspiring. And it's also given me so much permission. And so, yeah, I guess I'm. And it's very unique as well, in my opinion. So I'm just wondering, like, what would you say is behind how you move in and through the world and, like, in your life?
• 4:16
  Speaker B: Oh, my God. Spirit. Spirit. In one word, spirit, source, soul, energy, like that. The older and the more crumbly I get in physically, the more. The only thing that feels to have any congruence is. Is spirit is the energy, is the life force that moves everything. And I feel like the difficulties and the complexities come when we either don't recognize that. When I was younger, I occupied such a desperate state of ego, believing that I was somehow moving things and making things happen. And I think that when we move past that and we. It's been a long journey, but we gained, you know, the shreds, the small speckles of humility. And then we get to see that we're just, you know, we're just, you know, bodies being moved and moving and dancing in a choreography that is so much bigger and more sublime and less knowable and more mysterious than what we think we're creating. But that's happening, and it's happening with each of us individually. It's happening on a kind of collective level. And right now, we're all of us, most of us, lots of us, experiencing that through the digital network in a way that maybe less so. We're experiencing it in corporeal community around the people that are physically closest to us. Like, in terms of neighborhoods, in terms of, you know, physical communities. So I'm excited about the movement back into those communities, in those what, what shamanically we call ordinary world communities and how activism plays a part, because how do we organize and how do we come together and how do we align this spirit movement on a yemenite, on a physical plane, but by the adherence to some quality of purpose, some, some ideas of integrity, some sense of, uh, you know, for want of a better word, morality.
• 6:37
  Speaker A: Wow. So how, like, I would say I have some grasp of this, but how do, like, how do you begin to connect to that, that omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent force you refer to as spirit that is behind and within, like your creativity and the way you move in the world and the way you even, let's say, navigate uncertain times, you know, volatile times, difficult times, challenging times. Like, how would you say you've come to discover, like you connect to that?
• 7:26
  Speaker B: I don't, I honestly don't know. I mean, I, I would, what comes through instinctively is through, through profound physical, mental, emotional collapse. I would, I would say. I think it's like, how do you, you know, how do you, how do you allow the river that is always moving, how do you allow it to be free, but to let whatever dams have been created for, for many different reasons, to shatter and allow what has always been there to carry on doing what it was always meant to do?
• 8:09
  Speaker A: I get like, I get goosebumps when I hear you say that. Because I see it on a global scale. I see it like, you know, we could look at nature, you know, like, like literally, so we could take it literally and sort of look at nature and the little dams we see and like streams and rivers and things like that. But then also there's like, and because it's all one, and I know you get this, it's like we can look at like the human and soul and spiritual structure and notice how it exists there, right? It's like what Rumi, the poet, I think he says something along the lines of, you know, do not seek for love, but instead seek for the barriers you have created to experiencing the love that is already there, the spirit that is already there. So I love that. And I feel like a big part of the work that, you know, we do through, let's say, the, you know, the podcast and the personal development stuff, the work that you do through your art and your activism and the care that you provide to the clients that you work with and such like, is such a big part of alchemizing or dissolving those barriers. Right. And, of course, it makes sense that we would cling and grasp to them, especially if we think that that's who we are and that's what makes all of this work, when, in fact, clearly that's incorrect.
• 9:44
  Speaker B: And, you know, it's funny because, like, so the first book I wrote under my old name, my birth name, was about patriarchy. It was about this 5000 year age. And it is. I think it's definitely been something that maybe in many lifetimes I've kind of with and go, what are you doing? This is insane. This is so unhelpful. But, you know, it's like when you go before patriarchy, when you look at cultures before the kind of what I think of as the kind of the contagion of patriarchy arise, what you find is nomadism. You find people flowing, you find people moving. You find people moving with the seasons. You find people moving with, you know, with the animals, with the crops, with the, you know, the journey. And it's only when patriarchy comes and feels like it needs to kind of, like, fence off and order and control and contain that, we start getting all these walls. We start getting these physical manifestations of block. And we also start to get this idea that it's unsafe. It's unsafe out there, and the only safe thing is within these walls. And that if the wars break, oh, my days, you know, it's the mat. The madness will come in, the craziness, the danger, the enemy. The other, the thing that is out there will come in. And I was talking to one of my students today. So I work, for the last 20 years, a lot of my daytime work has been supporting neurodiverse, young neurodiverse people who are like, who are like, coming through the school system and going, well, I'm not the right shape for this. And, you know, chatting with them. And one of, one of the students I work with who's just beautiful and amazing, one of his biggest anxieties has been around death and around this idea of dying. And the way that he has kind of channeled that is to become obsessed about, like, volcanoes and meteors and tidal waves and anything that can cause this kind of mass devastation. And we were chatting today, and I was like, actually, you know, I think we were talking about the irrationality of fears. Like fears being irrational. I said, I think the biggest rational fear is ego death. I think that's why we have all the fears that we have is because the ego is saying in a very subliminal way, I'm frightened that if this happens, I will die. I wonder how many of those blocks and how many of those walls that got put up were basically coming from a place of I dont want to die. And how much are we seeing now in terms of the devastation and in terms of the kind of the institutional, what I would call the kind of institutional psychopathic madness of kind of billionaires is coming from exactly that same place of like, but I mustnt die.
• 12:44
  Speaker A: Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. This is one of the reasons I was so excited to connect with you on this platform because, like, there's so, there's so much in what you just said as you were speaking, I had this vision. So one of my favorite movies is Moana, and I love this movie. And there's a, so what I'm recalling is this young, this young girl who is just moved by curiosity and innocence and the sense of adventure and, like, spirit, really, the qualities of spirit and, you know, bless their hearts, there are people around her, elders and such, with the exception of, I think it was her grandmother, which I can totally relate to. We know this, who really wanted to sort of keep her safe and maintain the status quo, right. And there was this fear, like you said, of death. I think that's really what drove them to be like, no, you can't go there. You can't do that. Just stay here. Meanwhile, spirit is just so alive in her that she's like, you know, there's a song and the song talks about, you know, her being called, called. And so finally, you know, of sticks and, you know, and things, she builds this raft and, you know, off she goes out into the great open on this amazing adventure and toward the very thing that everyone on the island is so afraid of and ends up loving it into restoration, really. And like, what a story, you know, what a story. And so all these elements of that remind me of exactly what you're talking about. And, you know, we've talked about queerness and we'll probably get into that shortly, I'm sure. But it's like, you know, where are the queer ones and who are the queer ones and how can we support them? And in their audacity to leave and buck the status quo, be moved by spirit and what is within them, to go out into the world and be so bold and audacious as to, like, begin to create and explore and manifest a more beautiful world that our hearts and souls know is possible, you know, it's like, that's what we're up to, right? And I feel like that's what you're describing.
• 15:36
  Speaker B: Yeah. And I love Marana, too. The first time I saw it at the cinema in Abatavi in West Wales. As soon as the music started, I was in tears. I was in tears all the way through. But, you know, the thing is. Yes, I mean, the restriction on Moana from her dad is coming from loss. It's coming from him having lost his friend to the ocean and becoming almost petrified, you know, that definition of extreme fear, being like, turning to stone, becoming fixed, becoming immoved, and yet Shimona has to go because otherwise everywhere will die. You know, she knows that that journey is, you know, to reclaim, you know, the heart of te Fiti and to. And to restore love. So, yes, we, what you called the audacity, you know, that's so beautiful. We. It feels in my heart like, as queer folk, we have an ancient task to imagine how the worlds can. Can move and can be different. And that comes from a deep connection with. With flow and with the mysteries. Yeah.
• 16:54
  Speaker A: And something you said just now, I love that you brought back the part, the piece of the story where her father was afraid that what happened to his friend would happen to her. And I think there's two ways of looking at that, right? Which is to look at it as a fear of death to the ocean, right. And like, what a metaphor, because what is it? Again, it might be roomy, I'm not even sure, but it's like we are a drop of water in the ocean. And so, you know, you could say, oh, he died to the ocean. And that could be a sort of negatively viewed thing. Or it's like, oh, wow, he died to the ocean. Meaning he became one with that which he is. Hedgesthem became the ocean, a place which he loved. Right? And so it's like, there it is there.
• 17:46
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how. How many of what has been invented, how much of what, you know, stands as a testimony to this age has. Has come from that place of feeling frightened, of returning to the ocean, of rejoining the ocean. And it's one of the sadnesses, isn't it? Because the hippocratic oath in terms of western medicine is all about do no harm. And so here we have this culture where the responsibility of doctors and caregivers and health workers is to try and ensure that humans stay alive as long as possible. And yet at exactly the same time as the emphasis is placed on that, the destruction that is going on to the world and to other life forms is kind of spiraling and that actually, you know, might so my mum passed over to spirit two months ago. And the week before she went, I had. There was so much magic around that process, this whole process, the process that had brought me back to live with her and help look after her. And I spoke to a really dear friend whose mother had died really quickly the year before. And she said they will try and get her into hospital and they will try and fix her. This energy, this kind of idea of like, no, no, you mustn't die. Even though she'd had her terminal cancer diagnosis six months before, she'd actively chosen not to take any treatment, but to have palliative care. She'd been fully aware of the journey that she was on and the fight that I had to say to the healthcare, to the doctors, no, she doesn't need any treatment right now. She needs to be tended. In the profound mystery of this process, a dignified, graceful. And she had great death. She had died at home looking at her beloved garden as I stroked her and said what an amazing, amazing job she had done with everything and how she was so loved and could go whenever she was ready. And that's not to say that there isn't grief and there isn't loss and there isn't pain. Of course there is. I mean, the measure of love is loss, but it's, it's like this is, this is what we sign up for when we come into body. It's, it's that.
• 20:28
  Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that just now. And it's, you know, there's. I think it's. In the gospel of St. Thomas, there's a, there's a line where he says something, something along the lines of, like, essentially those who understand will not know death or something like that. And, and the way that I interpreted that is, and it's, it's, it's nuanced, right? But when you have the relationship to spirit and life and existence that, let's say, perhaps you do, or perhaps I do, perhaps some others do, you come to recognize that life and death, which are one, you know, in this beautiful way. In this beautiful way. And so, you know, it's, it's not, I like to say, spiritual awareness and understanding does not. Somehow, I think absolve is the word. Absolve you from the human experience. Like, sure as you are existing in this body and on this earth, you're still going to feel that. You're still going to think there's still going to be grief. You're still going to. All of that still happens. It's not like, oh, I'm spiritually aware, and therefore, I don't feel and I don't think and I'm not here. It's like, no, you are still. And also the grace with which you are able to navigate all of this and hold all of this, you know, death and all death, life and all. Like, it is, it becomes greater as a result. And, like, you, to me, are such a beautiful example of that because I know you grieved and. And simultaneously, what I witnessed in you was this beautiful grace and humanity. And, I mean, what do I want to say here? Like, it's almost like you navigated it with the same sort of poetic orientation that you do everything else, you know, like, it was just so poetic. Yeah.
• 23:15
  Speaker B: Thank you, love. Yeah, I mean, thank you. Thank you. I mean, I was called back here. It was a really. It was a really, really clear calling. When the time. When the time came, spirit was really clear. And when I say spirit was really clear, I don't mean to say that some white man on a beard suddenly appeared on a cloud. And when you must go, what I mean is that my cat vanished. My van broke down. I got Covid. All of these things happened that just. I mean, the loss of my cat was definitely the biggest. My cat had walked away from my mom's house where she'd been staying while I went to volunteer for a few days at a festival. And so it was like, of course, I'm going to come back here. I have to find my cat. And it was that process that helped me really see where my mom was at and actually see that no, she needed more help. And that actually, this was the time and that. And that, okay, let's be. Let's be here now for as long as it takes. And I was really blessed that the call, when it came, it came at a time when she was still really, you know, really caged. She could still drive. She was still, you know, able to go and see her friends. She was still able to go to the shops. You know, we together were able to make what ended up being, you know, her last trip away to, again to west Wales. And. And that was so. There was so much lightness and fun and humor, and there was so much healing for both of us in terms of this relationship, you know, this really profound relationship. You know, she. She had. She'd married my father, who had, for many different reasons, had. Had been incredibly physically violent towards her and where there had been so much pain for her in that experience. And I'd kind of grown up as a witness to that dynamic and then growing up just with her feeling an incredible sense of responsibility to her wellbeing. And you and I have talked about how we've connected in that sense of, you know, before. And, you know, my own journey to get to the place where I could come back was deep. And sometimes it was really fucking ugly and messy and raw. But we got there, and that is a blessing, you know? Yeah. And I think you're right. I think that, you know, our natural, the natural form that all of us as living bodies, whether plant body, animal body, human body, is in this state of grace with existence and an understanding that at some point, the existence we are in is going to migrate and transform into a different kind of existence. And as you were speaking, the thing that came through was the thing that blocks. That is greed. Because if we think that there is only this, then we become greedy that we need to have more of this. We become greedy that it's not enough to live to whatever age, pick a number, we want more of that, or we cannot possibly move out of this body. Because what about the giant car that we just bought? Or what about the yacht? Or what about the ten yachts? Or what about any of the other stuff that the trappings that we think equals permanence or we think equals some kind of attainment or security or hold, and actually none of that matters.
• 27:31
  Speaker A: Wow. Did you. Did you have to go through a process of discovering that greed and, and that everything you just listed, like, none of that matters? Like, did you have to go on your own journey to experience all of that stuff and that greed to realize that that's not it yourself? Or did that.
• 27:59
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, like, I think we do. I think we. I think we. We have to. I think that's what these experiences are here for. You know, that there are, there are schools, aren't they? They're how we learn. And sometimes, you know, we learn things in, you know, we don't just learn things at school. I'm not saying that. I mean, the events, life events that happen to us are our schools. They are how we learn. They are how we. How we process and move. So, yeah, you know, like. So, I mean, one of the earliest things for me was, was seeing how my mum, you know, she walked out after a particular violent episode from my dad. She walked out with nothing. And I think as a six year old boy, kid like that, that sense of the triumph of being able to go, well, what the fuck matters here? You know? Like, is it these candlesticks, is it this house? Is it any of that? Or is it, you know, your beating heart? Is it your ability to live in the world and not be, you know, and not have your sacred body desecrated by the madness, the pain, the drunkenness, the everything of someone else? But that was a big first one. But, yeah, I mean, that, you know, there have been countless other times, you know, like countless. And I still, you know, I'm a. I have strong, magpie energy. I mean, I walk down the street and see something shiny, and I want to pick it up.
• 29:39
  Speaker A: Of course you are shiny.
• 29:42
  Speaker B: No, and I'm like, oh, but I need another scarf. I need another floaty thing that I can float in. You know, there's. I can feel that. I can recognize that in myself, but none of it matters, you know? And actually, my journey through life has been. I feel like it's been this process of kind of inhalation and exhalation. So you kind of, you know, you arrive at a place, and then you start kind of going, oh, I want to, you know, I want to fill it with. I want to fill it with crap and, you know, like, tables and chairs and all the rest of it. And then, you know, spirit moves you and the flow moves you on, and then it's like, oh, I let all of this go, and. And so you kind of dance with that. And I, and one of my dear artist friends, I remember going into her, she took me into her bedroom, and she had one of those old printers trays that would hold the letters. And then each hole, each space was occupied by some tiny thing that had some really important meaning for her. And there was something about that experience that helped me see that, actually, you know, if you. If you're going to carry anything with you in your bag, then that has emotional. An emotional energy attached to a loved one or a family member or, you know, something approach, you know, then. Then it might as well be as small as possible so that it doesn't weigh you down.
• 31:12
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I fully understand this. It's funny. And I actually want to ask you a question about, I guess, the process of arriving at that place and also some pieces around, like, queerness and spiritual awakening. What I wanted to say, though, before that was, I so connect to what you're saying here, because I can remember probably right around the time I was beginning my own spiritual awakening, my, my grandmother. So my grandfather had passed away, and then my grandmother passed shortly after, as you know. And, um, you know, we. She went so gracefully. It was, it was really something. Like, she even waited until I got there, and. And she wasn't, um. How do you say? Like, she couldn't speak. Her eyes were closed, et cetera. But. But I got a call, and, you know, and they said, like, she's there. She's waiting for you, you know, they knew. Cause grandma and I were, like, thick as thieves. And it was so beautiful, you know. Cause she waited, and then she knew she could go, and she went right after I left. That was wild. You know, it's like, if that doesn't make you think there's more going on here, I don't know what does. And so in that timeframe, I remember my grandpa had left me his car, and there was some furniture and there was some money, and, gosh, I got to be honest, I couldn't get rid of that stuff quick enough because I was in this process, and I didn't want anything that would weigh me down or interfere with me being moved by spirit. Now, I say it that way now. I didn't have that language for it back then. I just knew that what made sense to me and what occurred to me was to travel light, like, to let go of as much as I could, because something was happening, and it had me here, there, and everywhere. And it was. Yeah, it was. It was incredible. But this was sort of within this whole, like, spiritual awakening, if you will. And also not too long after I had come out as well, you know. And so I'm curious, as I say, all of that, like, for you. Do you recall when you began to recognize that there was more going on here, that whole spiritual awakening piece, and then also the piece around, like, your queerness and your gayness. Like, do you recall?
• 34:05
  Speaker B: Oh, I think. I think. Oh, I mean, to be honest, like, I wonder. Like, I wonder what sense I was making of the world before I can remember, you know.
• 34:22
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 34:22
  Speaker B: Those early years. I mean, I was very. I was very blessed that I grew up quite close to the ocean. So I definitely must have had this, you know, experience of just this enormous force that was. That was right here. And I love playing. I love playing with the sea, and I loved, you know, the kind of being in the waves. And I remember getting a little bit older and really finding there was a. There was a cave on the beach where I grew up that just fascinated me. And there was something that I didn't think of as I am having a spiritual experience at all, but it was about nature, so it was about being amongst. It was being in the world. It was being amongst these. And the moving world, the living world, this idea that I could walk through the cave at one point and there would be these rock pools and these beautiful, unknowable creatures that were kind of, you know, waving and moving and darting. And then almost just minutes later, suddenly the water would be there, and suddenly the landscape would be transformed, and suddenly it wouldn't. I wouldn't be able to do this. And it was a whole other thing. And suddenly, you know, like, actually the beach would be cut off and how would I get back? And so I definitely feel like that's what I feel in my heart as a wee one, was the kind of the sense that I had of a kind of force beyond me that shaped my understanding of the world and not just mine. Like a wider force, my queerness. I remember feeling, I think, as a kid, I was so drawn to. To the world of women, like, as a place that made sense to me in a way that I didn't, you know, I've seen friends of mine now who have kids who are now kind of going to university age, but, you know, I remember seeing them when they first came into the world and. And, you know, and a young boy who almost immediately was like, give me. Give me the guns. Give me the cars. Give me these toys. These are what I want to play with. And, I mean, that was so. They were nowhere for me. You know, for me. I would be like, I was completely obsessed about cleaning products, like, under the sink. Like, I don't know whether it was the kind of the aesthetic of these kind of, like, 1970s labels and colors, tights. Like, the fabric of tights was incredible. Like, I was like, what is this, you know, supercharged thing? I remember my auntie would, like, rub balloons between her thighs and then they would stick to the ceiling. I was like, this is witchcraft. And, you know, and I. But I think as, as I kind of, as I grew up, how that made sense to me was I. I felt more of a sexual attraction to boys because I didn't feel like I really understood what a boy was like. I didn't feel like I was a boy. I didn't feel like I. Like, that was a world that made sense to me and the men around. So my, you know, I'd look at my father, you know, after my mum and he separated, I would think of him and the violence, and I'd be like, well, I. That is not something that I want. Like, I don't want want to be that. And I would look at, you know, my auntie's husband who was, who was not violent at all and, you know, was a very. Was an older guy, you know, very God fearing and loved tomatoes. But, you know, like, Saturday would come and the choice would be, do you want to sit down and watch the boxing with uncle, or do you want to go into Marx's with auntie and chop? And I was like, I'm going to go shopping. You know, it was just like every moment, the choice would be presented between, you know, what, what we could call now, you know, the male and the female, the masculine and the feminine. I'd be like, I am straight away there. I want to. I want to dress. I want to put on these clothes. I want to, I want to put. Feel what the makeup feels like. I want to have this. I am here to have this experience of the world. And, and there was no problem with that until there was a. Until there was a time when, you know, boys. Boys were not. You were not allowed to do that anymore. And that, I think that was then when I began to shame. Began to have an experience of shame and then shame myself with, with this. Yeah. And, and that's when a kind of desire for the male or a kind of a, a sense of. Kind of attraction to the other, which for me was the world of the boy, the young boy that then had this kind of weird twist because I was in a state of shame for myself. So these boys then represented something non shameful that, you know, and then you get into something that would grow, you know, and become kind of more about, you know, domination and submission and things that I actually don't really need to be part of that. They don't. They don't. And in many ways, you can go, well, actually, you know, the, why does. Why does the feminine need to be subjugated? Why does the female need to be looked at with horror and hostility? Because that's ultimately what was being broadcast.
• 40:20
  Speaker A: Wow. How do you personally define queerness? I suppose. And, like, what is. I guess for you, what is the, I mean, the answer might be obvious, but what is the distinction between, you know, between, like, being gay, which I believe you are, I'm not sure, but also at being queer, you know. Yeah.
• 40:50
  Speaker B: Yeah. It's really, that's, that's a real, that's been really alive more recently for me than ever because, you know, I don't particularly feel that gay anymore. You know, I found myself presenting more fully as myself without shame in gay, you know, world. And just a lot of gay society just kind of going, no, we don't want you here, you are not part of the masculine that we are eroticizing and elevating and fetishizing. You're like, what is this? And I think it's more confusing because I'm not trying to pass as female. It's not like, you know, it's almost like the world of, I mean, you know, however one looks at Grindr as a kind of. As a, as a, as a benchmark or as a kind of, you know, litmus test for where gay is at the moment. It's fine to be feminine in Grindrland if, if you look like you could be a woman and if you adopt the position, meaning if you are submissive to some, you know, big male, but as soon as you move into the world with both and kind of going, okay, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna come in all of this, then that's when I think the gay paradigm kind of can't quite. Doesn't quite know where you go. And that's when I feel queer. That is more, for me, a template of queerness. And then I find myself looking at other people and going, oh, yeah, you're right. You've got the queerness thing going on. And I find myself gravitating almost unspokenly to people that are, however they define it. They're walking a path that is very much between worlds.
• 42:48
  Speaker A: You know, one of my first explicit counters, and I say explicit because I know that queerness was existing around me and within me long before this. But during the pandemic, I had followed my, I had followed spirit to the west coast, and you and I had met in this beautifully synchronistic way. And here we are. The rest is history. And that was, I'm going to say that was probably one of my first encounters with what I would regard as a community of, of, well, certainly before that, now that I'm thinking about it, but that moment, that experience, our hot seat community during the pandemic, it felt very queer to me. And I remember feeling so at home in that space, like, oh, these people, you know, these people. And everything that is going on here just is like, it just works so well, you know, even in its, like, as, you know, even in its kind of messiness, you know, there was a beautiful sort of messiness and chaos about it, but it, but, but it just worked so well. And I remember feeling so at home in that space and in, in meeting you as well, I was just like, oh, my gosh, I feel like I've encountered a soulmate. You know, that's really how it felt. And then I started learning about you and your own journey and the way you see the world and move in the world. And I was like, oh, my gosh, like, so much. Me too. You know, so much. Me too. Even down to what you said earlier about the world of the woman and the feminine, you know? Yeah, yeah, it's brilliant.
• 44:54
  Speaker B: Yeah. But I just, you know, one of the things that. Because, like, yeah, I think. I think chaos, I, you know, one of my practices that really helped was. Was five rhythms. So dropping into that space of kind of conscious dancing, and I loved getting the sense that, you know, whether you're male or female or trans, like, whatever your. Your sexual identity, whatever your gender identity, that. That here is the feminine rhythm, here is flow, and here is the masculine rhythm. Here is staccato. And it's actually when you bring the two together that you get chaos. And that chaos is such a creative space. That's the place where you can release, where you can heal, where you can dream, where you can create. All of that goes on in that cauldron. So when I'm. And I mean, like, increasingly when I find myself in certain, you know, gay areas or get gay spaces where I hear, you know, I hear men saying, not into femmes, mask for mask, any of that, and I'm like, what are you afraid of about this other part of yourself? What are you not willing to bring to the table and sit down and eat with you? And how do you imagine that where you are without that part of you is stronger than where you could be when you are dining together and creating together, whatever that chaos is?
• 46:33
  Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's powerful questions, powerful inquiry, powerful invitation, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
• 46:46
  Speaker B: Can I ask you something?
• 46:47
  Speaker A: Yeah, of course.
• 46:48
  Speaker B: So how. How do you feel like your queerness now in terms of. In terms of the work you do and in terms of the place you live, how do you feel that sits alongside your. Your sexuality or your gender identity? Like, where is it for you?
• 47:08
  Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, there's so something someone said to me recently, and I shared this with you. It really struck me was he said, you know, you can be gay and not be queer and you can be queer and not be gay. And that really landed for me. And I think there's also, like, some crossover, too. There can be crossover. And I think the way I see it currently, and honestly, for a while now, I viewed it this way, is I look at queerness as sort of an energy, like an energetic entity that exists, period. And when I look, I can point to it and its existence and presence in different, let's say, people or places or things. And I can also sense where maybe it isn't or where it isn't welcomed or where it's been rejected or repressed or oppressed or suppressed. So that's really clear to me. I would say what's interesting is I really connect to a lot of what you said earlier about how the piece about being gay was a bit, like, unclear in a way. I think that where I find myself now is, and to be honest, I think it's always been there. If I go back, I'm more queer than I thought I was. And the fun thing about that whole journey and process is that there's something so liberating about owning it. Because I can sit here today in a military vest and a dodge, you know, a printed tee and my hat and these, like, you know, funky goggles. And sure, it's like giving masks or something, you know, whatever you want to call it. But then, like, I'm looking right now within an eye shot, I can see, like, my pink tutu and, you know, and, like, the crop top that I wore with the denim cutoffs and the ankle boot heels and the sunglasses out to dance one night in this space. That, in my opinion, was beautifully queer and was so, like, so celebrating of, like, of my presence in the space. You know, I was on stage dancing. The camera was kind of following me around. Like, they'll capture video and photograph and stuff, and they just loved it, you know, and yourself, like, I'm celebrated in that space. We're celebrated in that space. So I find myself gravitating more and more to. Towards those spaces.
• 50:09
  Speaker B: But.
• 50:11
  Speaker A: And what's the. What's interesting is that I've also come to embrace it all. It's like, I can wear this, I can wear that, I can wear everything in between, you know? And you might think that you have me pegged. And just when you do, you know, I flip the script on you and you're like, what? And it's like, yeah, that's the freedom of being. That's the freedom of being. That is what is possible in queerness. I mean, and never mind. I flip the script on you. Queerness flips the script on me through, you know, on me as me, you know? And so it is flipped on you. Because, let me tell you, I remember, I was like. So I come out and I'm, you know, I'm gay, and men are my thing, etcetera. And then I start to notice in the background, louder, and louder and louder is this sort of curiosity about women. And I remember thinking, wait, what is going on here? I thought we already did this. Like, I thought we already went through this, you know? And so then I began opening and exploring that curiosity. And so what's beautiful is where you find me today is I'm just this. Like, there's this openness, you know, I think this spirited way of living that you described at the beginning of the conversation. And, you know, this spirited orientation and queerness are kind of like hand in hand. So ask me a month from now, and who knows? Like, I might be in a relationship with someone female or. Or even trans. Like, who knows? I have no idea. You know? And I think that's the beauty of where we find ourselves, you know?
• 52:07
  Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. And one of the things that strikes me sometimes when I. When I. Again, when I. When I dip into the world of gay, you know, there's. There's such a. Such a strong hold on the binary. This idea. You are. Are you top or are you bottom?
• 52:26
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 52:27
  Speaker B: Are you holding the leash or are you in a pup mask? And. And this idea that we have to navigate the world by pinning everything down and going, okay, that is there, and this is over there. Everything you just said resonates so powerfully. And it's so beautiful because it is. Exactly. It's the switch. It's the. It's the flip. It's the curve. It's the dance. And. And it is the mutability of it. And, yeah, I notice it for myself in terms of. Is the sexual energy rising in me at all at the moment. Sometimes, mostly around spring, it can be like, wow. Just like this. Everything is arousing. Everything is beautiful. I was watching a tv program recently, and there was this amazing older woman playing, like, a chief inspector. And I was like, you're really hot. Like, everything about you, I just want to. Yeah, I want to go for a whiskey with you. And then at other points, there's just this. It's. It's like listening to tibetan bowls. It's just this. There is. There is no desire. There is no one. There is. There's just this. This calmness and this kind of stillness. And I don't know how much of this is an aging thing as well for me. I mean, there's, you know, there's a kind of this progression into a different form, into a different stage, into a different place. And that doesn't mean that I don't feel still like a little kid, but there is also this. This this ripening. And. And there is. There is a movement to. Yeah. To slowness and stillness.
• 54:16
  Speaker A: Wow. Wow. So there are two more things I want to touch on. One is that ripening and kind of like, what you see is next for you, but before that, I'm just grabbing something here.
• 54:32
  Speaker B: Oh, my God. Props.
• 54:34
  Speaker A: So this is your hardcover book, ghost to puss, which you gifted to me with a beautiful piece of your artwork. If you're listening and you're not watching on YouTube, I encourage you to go and check it out, watch the video so you can see this beautiful cover. So what I want to know is, what role does queerness play in your, like, your authorship, your writing, and your creative process and also your activism.
• 55:13
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I mean, okay, well, let's. Let me start. Let me start with activism first, because, you know, this is like, this. We're doing this in Pride month. And.
• 55:27
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 55:28
  Speaker B: And I've, you know, I remember going to my, you know, like, I remember going to my first pride in 1992, and, like, I'd had sex by that point when I was, like, 16. And that was, like, I broke the law, like. Like loads of people. And, you know, and my experience of pride was that this was about people who were in defiance of the normative, the broadcast normative standards of society. And we were, you know, we were meeting up just to. Just to be there, just to show that we existed, just to show that we were deserving of a way to live on this planet that didn't involve, you know, being spat at, being. Being beaten, being killed, everything else that our queer and gay ancestors had experienced. And we walked, we marched, and there was a park, and we put some coins into a bucket and we hung out in the park for a bit. And so my experience of being gay queer at that point was activism. That was it. And now for the last few years, I find myself going to pride events. I've been to some in London, and last year I was playing in the samba band that I've played in, and we were leading the parade in Cardiff. And what I'm noticing is that this is like a corporate fly pass. Here are the giant supermarkets. Here are the giant banks. Here are the giant corporations. And. And there is something for me this year in particular, with what has happened in Palestine, the opening that we have been gifted to see what has happened in terms of the settler colonial project of Zionism and how that project goes back hundreds of years, how it has affected countless indigenous societies across the world, how it affected Turtle island when, you know, the white settlers, how it's the same, the same process. And I cannot get over how silent this edifice of capitalism is on this subject. And you know, one shouldn't be surprised because it's a key beneficiary to this. But I am not prepared to cheer that anymore. I felt uncomfortable on an environmental level, waving my disposable flag for the companies that I knew were doing so much, were doing so much, presenting of ethical considerations, social considerations, environmental considerations that weren't matched by the reality of what they did, or the fact that we were here in our queerness while the CEO's of these companies were still these old, white, straight, cis males. But something has happened for me this year where I'm like, I haven't got the taste to cheer on the very thing that is destroying life for all of us here and is, and is so inimical to what we all need and what all of us need to benefit from. So, yeah, so, I don't know. I mean, my activism feels very small. It doesn't feel, you know, I'm in awe of people who, like, I can think of so many of my rebel friends from Extinction Rebellion who have put themselves in such harm's way to raise attention to the fact that how we are being encouraged to live. I don't think it's how most of us want to, but we're caught in a situation where if we are going to have enough money to cover the bills that keep rising to ensure that billionaire companies keep profiting, then we are caught in this trap of having to carry on. And these are people going, do you know what? This has to stop. So my complete respect to them.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker A: Yeah. And you, for your draw, for your contribution as well, because you are making a contribution in your own way, through your presence, through your work, through your voice, you know, through your allyship. Like, um, you to me are such an ally, I just have to say, like, oh, my gosh, you know. Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker B: It's, um. Yeah, we're all doing what we can, and every moment we get to wake up and. And step up again. So, you know, here's to all of us.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker A: And. And so, lastly, I guess I would ask you, like, what's next for you? And I know that that's a tricky question as someone who moves the way you do. Right. But what do you imagine is next for you? Or, like, what? Yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker B: I don't know. Let's bring down the system.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. And on that note, we're complete. Yeah.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, yeah. I don't know. I mean, I was listening to a really good friend who works for a newspaper, and she was doing a podcast because obviously the election, there's an election coming up here in Britain next month. And she was talking about how most of the things that are really important to people right now are the fact that they haven't got any money and the cost of everything is going through the roof and how, you know, public services, this idea of the public good, this idea that these companies, the origin of these companies was to ensure that we had water, or that the water, the rivers were clean. And we're so far from that. I mean, even as I say that, I'm like, yeah, maybe the origin of that was like, no, we're just going to mess up however we want to. But there is more awareness now that we are pouring shit into the rivers and into the seas at the same time as that shit, like that physical, literal shit that we all produce could go into the soils and help stop the soil degradation. So it's like, okay, we're at a point now where it's quite clear to see how we can stop doing one thing that is harming. Just redirect that energy, redirect that flow to something else where it's needed. So I'm. I'm obsessed with compost toilets. I'm also quite obsessed with kombucha and bacteria. So I don't know what's next is I want to write. I want to write. Well, I want to write. There is already a collection of poems about my mom that I want to bring that to fruition. I really would like to co create. Create a forest garden so that there is a space that is an ongoing resource. I mean, part of the thing that I keep hearing when I know that so many people are not getting the nourishment and the nutrients in their diet because they can't afford to, because it's not there in the food that they can afford to buy. And it's like, but we're gifted with the resources of this beautiful world. We are gifted with these incredible plants and herbs and trees. And so to somehow, again, stop the thing that's causing the harm and direct the energy to the thing that is here to help us more of that that I can be involved with, the better.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker A: So I love that. I love that. Yeah, I absolutely love that. And I can see the potential in it. You know, it's like, if there's a way to funnel that money, that energy, that resource, you know, into, like, let's say people like yourself or myself or other people with a vision of a new world, right? And then we can begin to create that. It's like, yeah, let's, you know, let's find a land, let's create community. Let's like, you know, create the new, the new earth, you know, so to speak.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker B: And I think that's coming back to the queerness, you know, that is, I think what the archetype, the queer archetype. And I'm not talking about, you know, I'm gay and I want to marry my gay partner and I want to have children with my gay partner. You know, I'm not talking about that model, which is completely valid to show we are able to be here in all sorts, but there is a queer archetype for me, which is about being a creative or an ideological pathfinder, and go, do you know what, kids? How about we do this so that I think that when I look to my queer ancestors, they're the ones who were doing that and I honor them, you know, and they're the models.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker A: Yeah. And that's very alive in you. That's very alive in you. Very present in you. Yeah, that's why we are here. Well, you know, I really look forward to continuing to have these conversations with you in this space and, you know, in other spaces. And I just have to say again, like, it's been such an honor to have you on. I'm so excited to see what's next for you. And of course people will be able to find you through the links on our social media platforms. So we'll continue these discussions on the last Thursday of every month in the gate. Actually, I just started reading the outro and I'm realizing I don't even have to read that piece. But this podcast and YouTube are listener viewer supported. So if you enjoyed what we're creating, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. You can also subscribe to the early access option on Apple Podcasts and listen ad free and gain early access to episodes. And all your support helps us to continue making content for you and supporting our community. And we thank you in advance. And finally, if you're looking to accelerate your personal development journey, check out our new coaching collection and learn how to heal and empower yourself at your own pace by getting instant access to 45 plus premium personal development coaching videos created by us, as well as our healing your shame and building better relationships courses. Once again, Keoni, thank you so much for being here. It has been an honor, a pleasure. I love you, and I look forward to doing this again soon. And thank you to the listeners for joining us today. Much love. See you soon.