Latest / Found in AI: AI Search Visibility, SEO, & GEO / Do Backlinks Still Matter in AI Search?

Transcript

Do Backlinks Still Matter in AI Search? · Found in AI: AI Search Visibility, SEO, & GEO

• 0:41
  (Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Today on Found in AI, we're digging into one of the biggest questions in marketing right now.
• 0:47
  Do brand mentions matter more than backlinks? If you remember, a few weeks ago, I sat down with Chris Pantelli of Linkify on how to get your digital PR strategy up and running in the age of this new AI search. If you haven't listened to this episode, I encourage you to go do that.
• 1:05
  Today, I'm sharing a conversation with Nathaniel Miller, the head of marketing at Ashbrook Technologies, and founder of his own growth agency, to unpack whether we should chase those mentions or backlinks for visibility and authority in 2025. We talk about everything from Reddit's decline, because you know we talk about Reddit on every episode, to how digital PR, social presence, and smart backlinks all work together to help shape your brand's reach in AI search. Here's part of that conversation. Okay, so tell me tell me about what you do, who you are, all of the good things. Yes, so Nathaniel Miller, I am the head of marketing for a holding company called Ashbrook Technologies, but I'm also building an agency where I focus on growth, all things growth, so a lot of just pipeline building. So it's outbound, mixed with content, mixed with LinkedIn, mixed with paid media, and then measuring the results, right, so you can show that there's honest things there. So yeah, and I guess the quick run through.
• 2:12
  So AI search and visibility across those platforms is becoming a big thing for you?
• 2:18
  It is becoming more and more, yes. So what are your clients asking about it, or is it just kind of one of those things that's on the periphery, but everyone's like, sort of, maybe, maybe not?
• 2:29
  So there's a few that have asked, and then, you know, obviously, just being on LinkedIn, it's like you're like embedded in it, right? So you see it a lot more, and it's like, okay, how, you kind of almost have to preemptively strike, right? You got to, like, start to try to understand it as much as possible, if possible, before you get asked, so you don't just look like a deer in the headlights. Yeah, I totally understand that part. So in a recent episode, I talked with Chris Fantelli of Linkify about how PR is driving visibility in AEO, but today, I kind of want to dig in more about what happens next. So once you've earned that coverage, like, what actually matters, are you thinking for search visibility? Is it the brand mention, or is it the backlink? It's kind of both, honestly. I was actually, there's a post today from a company called Noble, and they just, like, kind of started automating a lot of this, like, getting brand mentions, because that's, like, one of the number one drivers to just being, you know, mentioned anywhere. And so they automate that process, which I'm going to look into, because it's a lot easier than doing it manually. I'd much rather have that process automated, because it's brutal, right? Yeah, I think it's kind of both, because what you'll find is a lot of the people that are being, or companies, rather, that are being referenced number one in, you know, any AI, whatever platform you're using, you know, pick your poison, whichever platform you're using, most of the time, it's going to be, you know, one of the top three results, right? Because they have the authority, they have the most backlinks, they're sitting there. So it kind of is both, right? But there are, you know, key indicators with getting specific brand mentions, where you're going to, you know, reference more, you know, we saw that with Reddit, but that's now down, I think, was that, I think, 40% less, which is crazy. That's a huge drop.
• 4:20
  I don't know if that'll bounce back, if they'll, you know, re-optimize that or not. But yeah.
• 4:25
  That has been interesting, because nearly every episode, we've all touched on, yeah, Reddit is super important. So I'm actually glad that you mentioned that, because I'm curious what the next thing is going to be. Because I don't know if you saw a bunch of posts all over LinkedIn about, here's how you do Reddit marketing. And then everyone, I've been getting banned. What do I do now? So I'm curious. I mean, I think, you know, it kind of, and if you follow any SEOs on, you know, LinkedIn at all, like everyone kind of promotes the same thing, where you kind of just stick to the basics, right? Like, because if everyone's jumping on Reddit, that eventually is going to go away, right? And then you're back to square one, like, oh, now what do we do? But if you just keep, you know, sticking with the basics, building your brand authority, building helpful content, getting backlinks, it's just naturally, organically going to start to happen more and more. And obviously, you know, as you see different trends pop up, like the Reddit thing, you can invest some time into it, of course, because you'd be dumb not to, but you want to invest all of your time, because then you're going to be stuck where I'm sure a lot of businesses are right now, where they just spent the last, you know, four months tripling down on Reddit and have nothing else going.
• 5:37
  And now they're done. Yeah, so I mean, I really think that's interesting. And then one of the things I wanted to touch on on the podcast this week, because we have talked about Reddit so much. So when we talk about brand dimensions, how do you define that? Like in a way that separates them from maybe traditional link building? Or does it?
• 5:59
  I mean, I don't necessarily feel that it does, right? Like, it's just being referenced. I mean, getting a link from an authoritative site, right? That might be controversial. I don't know. But from my perspective, I feel like it's just kind of the same thing, right? If you're, yeah, if you're being referenced from an authoritative site, back to your site, like, whether it's like you're publishing the content on, or, you know, you're doing a guest post, or you're just purely mentioned in like some overview, top 10, whatever, like, it's a back link, right? Like, it's still going to help either way you go about it.
• 6:36
  Either way. So whether with traditional SEO, or now, AO, GEO, LM, whatever we're calling it, AI search, AI search. So do you think like all mentions are created equal or does context, like being cited in authoritative or semantically related content, change the weight of that a little bit? When it comes to AI visibility?
• 6:59
  Yeah, I think, again, I'm gonna, I kind of have this take where AO, AIO, whatever you want to whatever acronym you want to label it as, it's basically just SEO. And it's just people are labeling it as something new, because it's easy to jump on the AI bandwagon. And you can, you know, flop slap a bigger price ticket on it, but it's really just basic SEO. But I think it kind of rolls back to that, like, all backlinks aren't created equal. Like, you know, if you're going to get a backlink from a really, really big site, they get tons of traffic, but it doesn't have anything to do with your industry or what you do, you're not going to get any traffic back to your site. So there's really no value other than they're a big company. So it's better to have, you know, half as much traffic from a valuable link that actually is in your industry, they're an authority, they're going to backfill traffic to your site. So that's kind of how I look at it. Like, are you getting traffic from that link? Because if not, it's most likely purely like, you know, almost like a logo slap on your website, right? Like, it's not really, there's not a ton of value there, minus the value that you spent getting it, I guess.
• 8:09
  So let me get your take on this. Because a couple different experts I've talked to, and when I say experts, I mean, we're all learning in search at the same time.
• 8:17
  So is it fair to call us experts? I don't know. But I mean, we've been elbow deep in this.
• 8:22
  Some of them have been saying that you don't necessarily need the backlink at all. You just need a like contextual mention on someone else's website.
• 8:31
  Are you seeing that to be true? Like in your experience of what you've been measuring so far?
• 8:38
  I mean, yes and no, right? Like, if you just want mentioned, sure, you could just, you know, like if you want mentioned in an AI overview, or if you want to just be like, there's no link to it, sure, you can just be mentioned without a link. But getting an actual backlink is always going to be more valuable, if possible. I mean, if you had to choose between one or the other, I mean, obviously choose the link. But if you're have to choose between just a mention without a link and nothing, I mean, take what you can get.
• 9:10
  Yeah. So I guess in context of all that, still go for that link if you can get it.
• 9:16
  Yes, always, always go for the link that it's the it's it is my I tell this all the time, it is my least favorite SEO tactic is link building. I hate it so much. And if I can outsource it by any means, I will. But that's so important. You have to do it.
• 9:31
  Yeah, so that kind of brings me to the next question. So link building strategies, do you see any of the current strategies changing to be more focused on AI search? Or is it still going to be traditional, like, wherever you can? And when I say that, what is your favorite way to get a backlink? No, my favorite way is just to outsource it.
• 9:56
  But if I'm actually doing work, okay, so I'll start back. Do I think it's going to change that much? I think you just have to be very intentional with it. I think that's really the biggest indicator that I see like, over the next, you know, five years, just being super intentional with the type of link you're getting and like how you're going about getting it.
• 10:16
  And in terms of anything changing, like the actual strategies of getting them.
• 10:22
  I mean, I think it's kind of the same, right? It's like, it's a lot of relationship building.
• 10:26
  Like that's, that is the worst part about it. It's just once you get in with a company, or you got, you know, you get a LinkedIn connection, like they're a lot more likely to reach out and say, hey, I'm working on this article, would love your insight, right? And so once you start realizing it's just relationships, you can really start to formulate your approach, right? Going to events, going, being on LinkedIn, posting all the time, networking like crazy as much as possible. You know, and there's, there's a lot of different websites that help you get, you know, backlinks. And so there's, there's one, it's like B2B, it's purely for B2B. I can't remember the name of it. I guess I don't use it very often. But the other one is Quoted.
• 11:11
  So Q-W-O-T-E-D, basically Harrow back in the day. But so that's, I've had a lot more success using Quoted than I ever have with Harrow, honestly. Yeah, yeah. I use Quoted a lot to find the experts for articles I'm writing for different clients. Love them. Shout out to Quoted.
• 11:28
  They're amazing. Okay. So like you're talking about like posting across LinkedIn and kind of like getting your brand mentioned places on social in a way, but also building those relationships. So do you think we'll see a future for brand presence across multiple platforms like YouTube, podcast, LinkedIn, wherever becomes the new quote unquote off page SEO?
• 11:59
  Um, maybe. I mean, you know, the big, the big hiccup right now with AI is that they basically scanned all data, right? And so like people's trademark data, right, books, all that stuff can now be sourced and sorted in AI. And so if that continues, for sure. I mean, it's impossible not to, right? Like, cause you're going to, it's going to use YouTube and all of the external things. And you, I mean, you can even still kind of use it to search on LinkedIn. Like I'll ask like, you know, Hey, who's a person I can connect to potentially. It doesn't always work, but it can still, it can still do it. So I think if, if it can, if there's still no regulations around like the language models consuming that data, there's no way it can't become part of your SEO. Right. Right. Yeah. Cause that's one of the other things that I've been hearing a lot too, is like, make sure you're everywhere because they're pulling in from social media, LinkedIn, wherever, but also it's also good advice just in general marketing because your customers are also everywhere. So for sure. And I think what, what it really kind of boils down to as well is that, you know, you want to at least have a presence on every channel, right? But you're not going to invest all of your time in every channel because they're not always there. Right? Like, so with B2B, LinkedIn's like the biggest, right? Like making a post tomorrow about it because it, you get a better positive ROI compared to almost any other platform out there in terms of ad spend, but also in just in terms of organic, I haven't had any more success than I've had on LinkedIn with any of the companies I've worked with or worked for. I did see someone on X. I just, I want to call it Twitter. It's on X this morning. They're like, TikTok and Instagram does not work for B2B. I'm like, well, duh, because LinkedIn is where it's at for that. But if you were advising a brand or your clients who have limited bandwidth, would you prioritize like digital PR for mentioned or technical outreach for those backlinks? It's tough. It's tough.
• 14:11
  Probably focus at first on digital PR because it's going to be the quickest way to really just build up your backlinks. Like obviously, again, like I said about, you know, if they're not going to generate any back traffic, it's not as great, but in terms of just like Google SEO, like you're going to start to build up some like momentum, right? Like, and actually I have a very good use case on this just in terms of purely SEO, not AIO or ADO or whatever. Again, whatever the acronym is now, I'm working with a company and the, the, just their, their, like their, their homepage, like, right. Like we created a Google search console. We did all these things and nothing. I mean, there was no traction. We couldn't get number one. We were like number 15 and we on our Google, you know, even though we had like a Google business page, like we weren't showing up at all and it did not start to get any traction to page one until we just, I was like, okay, you know what? We're just going to start just getting some backlinks because just building a pure backlink profile. There wasn't any like targeted, like we want specific in this industry, you know, like it was just like, let's just get some big names all linking back to us within a week. Number one and our, our business profile was there. It was, it was the craziest things I'd never seen something with, with that drastic of like no, no change. I mean, it was like a month and a half. There was nothing. I was like, okay, like, what are we doing? I mean, we're building content. We, you know, we got authorized from Google. We did all the things and it wasn't until we started getting just a couple of backlinks from outside sources to like start to show up there. So I would focus there first. And then once you, you know, kind of build a little bit of authority and some momentum just in terms of regular SEO, then doing some targeted, you know, technical link buildings. Yeah. That's interesting because I've also heard there's so much conflicting information when it comes to like AI visibility and how that's working with the search engines that, yeah, it's taking those top 10 links on Google. No, it's not. It's all over the place. It's always good. If you get your, your content on that first page, just in general, plus user behavior is not, I mean, it's changing, but it's not completely everyone's obeying to Google yet. So. For sure. I mean, if you're, I mean, when you're embedded in like software companies or on LinkedIn, like you're, you're, you're surrounded by AI, but if you step out of that, there's people out there who still don't know what Chachiviti is, right? Like they, or they're calling it something completely different and they have no idea what it even does.
• 16:44
  And so, yes, there are people who are going to, you know, you search on, on, you know, Chachiviti, Claude, whatever perplexity. And that's how they're, they're, they're moving their, the way they search to that. But there's still 90, I would say, I mean, I don't, I don't know if there's any data around this, but I would say like still the primary search engine is still Google, right? Like, yeah. Yeah. It's not going to go away. I think maybe OpenAI had like 800 million users or something like that, which is insane. But, but how many of them are also still using Google? I know I am. Exactly. Oh, for sure. Like, and, and, and you got to think about in terms of like, are people searching there or are they like researching there? Right? Like I'm searching in Google and then I take what I find there and say, okay, like, here's what I'm finding or I'm more just validating ideas or doing deep research, which is the big thing. So I don't have to do that on my own manually. Right, right. Yeah. I was talking this morning with someone, I was like, either chat GPT makes me sound like I'm a genius or they take all my bad ideas and then make them still sound like I'm a genius. Like it's not helped any on that, on that side.
• 17:52
  Okay. So like maybe one, one last question, cause it sounds like SEO backlink strategy is still a to go when it comes to all of this. So if we had to give marketers one sentence of advice for 2025, what's the real currency of authority links, mentions, or something else entirely?
• 18:14
  I would say links. I mean, I think it's links and then quality content. I think those two kind of go hand in hand. If you build a backlink and your content sucks, like that's, you're never going to get anywhere. If you build a great content, but you don't have any links to that content, no one's going to see it. And so it's like, you have to have both together. And so customer research, customer research would be the place I'd start and then build content and then build links to get to that content. So what should marketers actually do with all of this information?
• 18:47
  Nathaniel's advice was simple, but solid. Focus on quality backlinks and they still matter more than ever. Create content worth linking to. Authority and quality are the boxy twins. They go hand in hand. Treat link building as a relationship building, whether that's through quoted, PR, or networking on LinkedIn. And finally, don't abandon the basics. SEO fundamentals are the backbone of AI visibility and it still matters. If you're building your 2025 content strategy or looking to 2026, start with audience research, build valuable content around it, and then go earn those backlinks and mentions. And as always, if you need help getting your content strategy off the ground, you can reach out to me on LinkedIn or at CassieClarkMarketing.com. That's it for today's episode. And I just want to say, I am so grateful for everyone who's been tuning in, sharing the show, sending ideas, or pitching a spot on the show as a guest. You're the reason Finding AI keeps getting better. And honestly, when I started this project back on August 11th, I don't know if I thought we would be almost at episode 10. Speaking of episode 10, next week we are going deeper, not into backlinks or mentions, but into how AI search engines actually think. I'll be joined by Charlie Graham from RivalC to break down how systems like ChatGPT, Perplexity, and Gemini process information to compare to Google or Bing and what that actually means for content, visibility, and measurement. Thanks for tuning in. I will see you next week.