Latest / Mortgage Marketing Radio / Ep 71: How to Have Advice vs. Price Buyer Conversations and Win More Deals

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Ep 71: How to Have Advice vs. Price Buyer Conversations and Win More Deals · Mortgage Marketing Radio

0:00
In today's highly competitive mortgage industry, building profitable relationships with
0:04
the real estate agents is essential for success.
0:06
However, finding effective ways to secure agent relationships can be a challenge.
0:11
With so many mortgage loan originators vying for the attention of real estate agents, it
0:15
can be difficult to stand out and establish meaningful connections.
0:20
Our new case study featuring loan officer Chris Cogill is a must-read.
0:25
Chris has closed a remarkable 36 million in funded loans from agent referrals.
0:31
And in this case study, he shares his proven strategies for building strong relationships
0:34
with real estate agents and leveraging those relationships to drive more business.
0:39
To get your hands on this resource, head over to LOKestudy.com and download your free copy
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of the case study today.
0:47
You'll find actionable insights and practical tips that Chris used to close 36 million
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in funded loans from agent referrals and how you can too.
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Don't miss out.
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Go check it out right now, visit LOKestudy.com and download your free copy today.
1:17
Hey listeners, Jeff, this is him for a welcome to another episode of mortgage marketing
1:37
radio.
1:38
Hey, if I told you how much I appreciate you, I appreciate you, I appreciate you tuning
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in, listening in, I appreciate the emails that you send me that tell me that you are enjoying
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Hey, keep those coming, right?
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Love to hear your feedback.
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Thank you for leaving the review, the positive review on the interwebs and if you want to
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So again, it's just a way of thanking you for letting us know that you like the show,
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the more reviews, the better we can do and the more value we can bring to you.
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And speaking of bringing value to you, of course, this week's guest, an awesome dude, a cool
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cat, a guy who's, you know, just, I think, an all-around, not only an all-star producer,
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but a good example of what a quality mortgage professional looks and sounds like that puts
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clients' interests above their own.
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What am I talking about?
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I'm talking about Ed Connocky, Ed Connocky with Terry Creek Mortgage.
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The general Ed's closed off of 4,000 loans in his career.
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That's right, 4,000 loans and I think about a 28 year career.
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And so what Ed and I unpack in this conversation here is really how to separate yourself from
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the, you know, the typical path that most people come to you on, which is trying to put
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a mortgage in a silo or in a box of, okay, I need a 30 year fixed, I need the lowest rate.
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Like Ed asks, you know, hey, if you ask people in a mall, come up to him, what's, what's
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better?
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4.6 or 5%, well, people are conditioned to choose 4.6, right?
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So what we, Ed and I talk about is how do we take the mortgage conversation out of this
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silo and be more fiscally literate?
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And what you'll hear Ed talk about is how he's self-educated himself through various resources
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to help him have a more fiscally literate conversation that here's the key thing.
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What we want to do is we want to teach our prospects and clients one thing, educate
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them on one aspect of financial planning that they didn't know before.
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So sometimes that'll be a mortgage related thing and sometimes it won't.
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So here, Ed talk about some, you know, examples of maxing out 401Ks and some of the misconceptions
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people have about that and actual examples of where most recently he was able to win a
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deal by being half a point higher than another lender.
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He was the fourth lender that they shopped and came to and he was able to win the transaction
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being a half a point higher.
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So if you want to learn more about that, listen to this week's episode, advise rather
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than sell, help clients understand the long term financial impact of a mortgage and then
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position you as being a key advisor and in helping clients plan and understand their financial
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future, their picture and their plan.
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So get into this week's episode, I'm glad you're here, if you like it, let us know, leave
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us a review and without further ado, let's get into this week's show.
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Ed, welcome to the show.
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Thanks, Chef.
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Happy to be here.
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Happy to have you.
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Know you're busy.
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Great chatting with you the other day and we have got a lot to cover.
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You know, it's funny, since you and I chatted the other day, I saw this headline come over
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my email.
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I don't even know this, but the headline was, how did Ed Connicky close 4,000 loans with
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my Boston accent?
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4,000?
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Yeah, man.
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I didn't even know about that piece.
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You've done so many loans, you lost track.
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So for the listeners, real quick, I mean, I did the formal interview, but you know, give
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us your version of that story.
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Set us straight.
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Who you are?
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What do you all about?
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Why, why you in this business?
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What do you love about it?
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Sounds great.
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Yeah, I started ironically, I think it was April 1st, 1990, so I just eclipsed my 28 year
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mark in the mortgage business and I started with out knowing anything about mortgages.
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You know, as the joke is, didn't know how to spell mortgage, you know, the right way.
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And here I am today, 28 years later, and I love it.
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I mean, it's, what gets me out of bed every day now, what I did 28 years ago and what
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I do now is totally different.
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When I first started, I started with Majestic Mortgage and Tom Ward, and Joy and Majestic.
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Yeah, I shard out to Tom.
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As I always say, wouldn't be where I'm at today without Tom Ward.
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We talked about that the other day.
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And then Tom merged with Cherry Creek back in 2005 or 2006, I want to say.
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So I was with Tom for 15, 16 years and then have been with Cherry Creek the last 12.
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So same phone number, I've had the same phone number for 28 years.
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And you know, as this industry, we tend to jump around a lot.
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I found that the grass is, you know, always greener on the other side of the fence.
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If I just had the right tools, which I had at Majestic and now have it, Cherry Creek,
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just to stay here and do my thing.
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So where's it?
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You said you found that the grass is always greener on the other side?
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Well, yeah, let me rephrase that, right?
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You know, the talk is that the grass is always greener on the other side.
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And I found that the grass is pretty fine where I'm at, as long as I have the tools that
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I need.
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And then it's up to me to just get it done and just, I don't look forward to reinventing
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the wheel and, you know, having new logos, new phone numbers, new emails and all that
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kind of stuff, too much work.
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Agreed.
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Agreed.
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I, saying that I heard once that stuck with me was the grass is greener where you water
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it.
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There you go.
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I like it.
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I like it.
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So, so speaking of Tom, shout out to Tom.
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He was on the podcast before.
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You guys can look that up.
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I don't know the episode, but I'm probably going to have him back, but it was probably a
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year ago.
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So you're with Tom for a long time, 15 years roughly, and he was, you told me a mentor
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of his.
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What are some of the greatest lessons you've learned while under Tom?
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Well, I think it's important to talk about Tom.
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Tom owned three-century 21s at one time.
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And he was upset with the quality of service he was getting from the mortgage industry.
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The guy decided to start his own mortgage company, you know, back in the late 80s.
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And then he finally got an offer to sell the, the century 21s he had at the time and
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just stay focused on the mortgage part.
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That's when I came into the company in 1990.
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So the unique thing about Tom being a realtor, no one, no realtor wanted to give him any
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leads because they were afraid he was going to steal their leads.
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Yeah.
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So we didn't work with realtors.
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We worked with builders.
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Builders is really our unique selling proposition back then, all the value that we can help
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with their clients over the six month of the build process.
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So I never really worked closely with realtors because of that.
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I have over the years, but it just never was.
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It was more of, you know, working with builders.
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And that's what started it and then everything went dry and that's when we'll talk a little
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bit about my new life in this industry and what I'm doing now.
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But Tom taught me a lot.
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Every loan is not a good loan, you know, that you have to say no to loans.
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Taking loan applications is not what you should be focused on.
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You should be closing them and more loans is not necessarily good.
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Portance of profit, importance of margin, you know, to be very profitable.
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As I always say, I'd rather do two loans and make the same amount that you're making when
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you do four loans.
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And why?
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Why would I want to have double the stress, double the labor, you know, double the deadlines,
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double the amount of lawyers and realtors and appraisers and all that kind of stuff.
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So just, you know, not that we're gouging people, but you'll see as we finish up the conversation
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of the value we bring to the table so that we don't have to worry about cutting our margins.
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Interesting.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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So that's, I think some good lessons there, right?
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Which is take good business in, right?
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Like what you said about us.
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Not just about taking in apps.
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Is it about, is it a good, good loan, good quality loan?
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And a lot of that.
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I don't want to just do loans.
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It's not what I'm here for.
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It's a higher calling than that.
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So just taking in loans and throwing them against the wall, which is, you know, and sees
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what sticks, which is pretty much accepted in our industry.
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I've never been a fan of that.
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So it's a higher calling for you to tell us more about that.
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What do you mean?
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Why is it more than that?
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Well, I think that's a good time to talk about the segue.
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Where my business totally changed and it had a change as everything was starting to go
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away.
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So there's, that we were calling on, as we peaked out in 2005, 2006, I mean, builders
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were having waiting lines to open up doors.
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They have a lot of reason for people to buy homes.
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There was no need for our USPs anymore, you know, of helping, helping, you know, advise
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consumers, the value of home ownership in the building arena that wasn't needed anymore.
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So we were a dime a dozen.
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Now it became who wrote the biggest check to pay the builder for marketing and what
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I have you that was going to get the loans.
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And that's when I knew that just wasn't meant to be.
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We were in a, you know, if you ever read that book Blue Ocean strategy, I have not yet,
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but I know it, yes.
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And they just talk about, you know, fighting in that red pond versus, you know, looking
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out and seeing the blue ocean.
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And that's where we were at and I needed to make a change.
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And I was lucky enough to come across a gentleman by the name Rick Edelman.
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And if you don't know who Rick Edelman is, look him up.
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He could be the single greatest advocate of the mortgage industry.
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And it amazes me because the mortgage industry doesn't realize it.
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Rick is an investment advisor out of Fairfax, Virginia.
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His firm has been going on for 30 years now.
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His firm's been open.
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They currently have 43 offices across the country.
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They manage assets around $22 billion for 35,000 families.
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He's grown this from nothing to this huge thing.
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Why he's so important and why I heard about him and why he changed my mortgage career
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was that he wrote a white paper in 1988 that said, don't pay off your mortgage.
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Get a big mortgage and pay the minimum on it.
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Get a 30 year fix.
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Don't do a 15 year, don't do a 20 year, don't do a bi weekly.
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Get a 30 year mortgage, pay the minimum.
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And all that extra discretionary money you wanted to throw at the mortgage, invest that
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money into your 401k at work.
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Pay off bad debt, grow your rainy day fund.
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Those are more important than you paying off your mortgage.
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So that's when I found him, with eye opening to me, I'd been in the industry 15 years.
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I'd had a great career.
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And now I got this guy saying, hey, what you've been telling people, it's not necessarily
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wrong.
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It's just that you need to look at this holistically, don't have the mortgage conversation
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in a silo all by itself because a good mortgage decision may be a bad financial decision
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for somebody.
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You've got to take that mortgage decision out of a silo and you've got to have a holistic
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financial conversation with somebody to make sure that the mortgage they choose is going
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to complement their financial planning and what they're trying to accomplish holistically
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with their financial plan.
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Exactly, exactly.
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It's a matter of fact that we're here now in the sweet spot.
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Let's start unpacking this because what really brought me back connected to you was a,
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I think, a post on Facebook in the mortgage coach productivity group there.
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There was some type of specific comment or just a dialogue that you had.
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Do you recall what that was because I'll try and pull it up.
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Yeah.
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No, no, no.
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If someone had talked about the shrinking margins that we're facing in this industry,
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which we're all seeing, I'm seeing it.
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We've seen it many times in my 28 year career.
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We're seeing it again.
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You know, there's a lot of people that are making nothing to do alone.
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Right.
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So we're seeing it everywhere and everybody's doing it.
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Small shops and big shops are giving it away because the refinances, they, I look at
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refinances differently, but they think refinances are gone.
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So, you know, we're going to have contraction and volume.
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So we really got to start giving away to get people in the door to do loans with us.
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So we're seeing that happen and there was just the discussion about that.
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In my comment on it was, you know, the importance of price versus advice.
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I think that's a Todd Duncan saying and Tom Ward and I at Majestic, we absorb that too
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and embrace that I should say that, you know, you have to really decide.
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Are you the price person where you're going to give everybody the best price or you an
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advice person?
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And you have to pick your poison.
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You've got to go down that path.
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You can't be both.
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You've got to pick one or the other.
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So there was this discussion in Banta going around and about a week later, after that,
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that thread, I had a client call me.
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I was the fourth mortgage company that they had talked to.
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It is a pass client of mine's daughter and they're looking to buy their existing condo
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in the city of Chicago.
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The owners decided to sell it and they want to buy it a little bit ahead of schedule because
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they didn't plan to buy it this soon but now they live in it so I got to make this quick
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decision.
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And they have decided before they talked to me, they were going to put 10% down.
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And as I go through all the numbers, they're talking about to get a gift from their parents
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and I'm going, well, this doesn't add up.
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Why would you put 10% down if you don't have the money and you got to get a gift from your
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parents to do this?
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Why don't you put 5% down?
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And I was the first out of the four people they talked to.
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It was the first one to let them know they could buy a home with only putting 5% down
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on a conventional loan and they have that all-be-gift.
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Nobody else mentioned it because all the other ones were order takers and all they were
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doing is just when they came to them and said, I want to do 10% down, they would go, here
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you go, here's what we can do for you.
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So right away, they're like, wow, that's so much better than we don't have to worry about
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feeling bad that we're taking that much money from our parents.
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And guess what?
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The parents are taking the money out of investments and the parents don't have to take that much
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out of investments now and that's when it rolled and it came down to where the first
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company they talked to had a rate of 4.625 and I'm quoting 5.125 and they chose me because
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one I packaged everything with no lender fees but at a half a percent higher interest rate
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they liked the fact that I was finally were the ones that were educating them to show
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them options that no one else talked to them about because they wanted that 5% down.
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Now obviously they went back to the first guy and he now honored it but it was too late.
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Too late in that he couldn't get the deal done or meaning they just went with you.
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No, too late because they lost faith in them and they lost trust in them, they lost value
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in them because why didn't you tell us that?
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Why did somebody else have to tell us that?
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So they ultimately chose you at a half a point higher because you gave them education.
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Yeah, those are lessons there and it's funny people often we throw that term around
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and loosely sell advice versus price but that in is a textbook case study on how you
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do that.
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So we've got loan officers listening to this, just heard you right there, we've got varying
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levels of experience, we've got people, veterans like you, now we've got some new people
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as I know because I get the emails.
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So you've got a year or less loan officer in the business, how are you coaching them?
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We become more of a advisor, what's the term you use, fiscal literacy?
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Right, it's funny, I'm not a smart guy, smart Irishman.
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After a couple of beers we think we're smarter but I mean we mentioned two huge mentors to
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me, Tom Ward and now Rick Edelman.
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I find people that make it work and do what they've done, we don't have to reinvent this.
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I think another one over the years too that is the same one is Greg Frost in our industry
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where he's like, I've failed so many times, I've screwed up so many times, I'm not going
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to tell you what I screwed up on but I'm going to tell you what I did and did work so just
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do that, don't try to reinvent the wheel.
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And that's the case, I'm not reinventing the wheel so when Rick Edelman and I started
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to really understand each other back in 05 and 06 and I was sharing this with you, you
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know, our industry had this storm of Douglas Andrew in his book, Mist Fortune and it was
19:19
revolutionary because it really made us teach about equity and home equity and understanding
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the power of money elsewhere versus just sitting in our house but the only problem that
19:28
I disagreed a little bit with Douglas Andrew is he wanted to put that into whole life insurance
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products which he gave a fancy title of guaranteed life insurance contracts or something like
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that from a marketing perspective and then I heard Rick Edelman with an interview with
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Steven Marshall and it blew me away I think it was 05 or 06 and that's when I reached out
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to him right away because he was the first one to talk about the importance of diversification
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and liquidity and having your money working for you and how interest rates are cheap and
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taxy-doctoral and a mortgage should be looked at as a financial tool not as a debt and that
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got me to pick up the phone and reached out to him and he was kind enough to set an appointment
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with me and we spent 20 minutes to change my life but why I'm saying all this is because
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I've just copied what he does and all he does with all his financial advisors is educate consumers
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that's all they do and they do it at a basic level using analogies to help people understand
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a tough subject of money very simply and in fact what their goal is is to talk at a fourth
20:27
grade level so everybody gets it so all I do and all I would recommend anyone to do that
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is just starting off or somebody that's struggling or just wants to change where they're not
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focused on having to worry about every realtor you know giving them business and they don't
20:43
like realtor business anymore they want to just go directly to the consumer is fiscally
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educate people and this is bigger than the mortgage so it's a money discussion but if we
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can teach them the importance of putting away the most in their 401k staying on a bad debt
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and having a rainy day fund and managing their mortgage so that they have the discretionary
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money to accomplish those goals and teach this fiscal literacy people need it they don't have it
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today and that's where you're going to have it become not a mortgage thing anymore it's a money
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thing and then you're the one that's helping them facilitate this this tool the mortgage I love
21:18
it I agree at 100 because as you know today it's all about positioning ourselves as a thought
21:25
leader and you know to speaking of mentors Gary Vaynerchuk you probably know he is but I you know
21:30
he teaches real estate agents that today you're no longer a realtor you're a media company and
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your back end is real estate and I think the same is true for real officers you know like I look
21:41
at I couldn't agree with more I'm looking at your videos on your Facebook page uh cherry creek
21:45
mortgage at at Carnegie you guys can look that up I'll put a link in the show notes but you've
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recently also got into video I think as a means for uh financial education right yeah it's just
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every time I learn something new it's my duty and obligation to share it with other and my
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pleasure to do it to just educate I was sharing with you I think I shared this with you when we
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were talking a couple weeks back about there's a survey of the states that done every two years they
22:12
do a survey of states and it's ironically 50 states and the district of Columbia so it's 51
22:18
to see out of all of those states who's requiring testing of personal finance in case through 12
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and the last one that I think was done in 2016 there's only 17 states so 17 out of 51
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require any kind of personal finance testing case through 12 so consumers are not smart
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basically yeah exactly yeah they're not smart visibly and I think you and I talked about this
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before if we were to go around and ask consumers in a mall you know hey what's better when you're
22:49
getting a mortgage five or 4.8 they're all going to answer the 4.8 because they remember how
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you know 4.8 is less than five when they were doing that in grade school so they know that that's
23:00
right so that's what they gravitate to because that's all they know they don't know about fees or
23:03
closing costs you know should they do a 15 versus a 30 they don't know that every dollar they don't
23:10
put in their 401k it's getting tax so they only have 70 cents on the dollar so they're losing 30%
23:15
of their money there so we've got to be the ones that have to educate them on this
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absolutely okay so what I'm thinking is this I'm thinking the audience is listening right now
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and the thought that's going through the head is all right I agree how do I have time to self-educate
23:31
myself and deal with all the other stuff that's going on in my business right what are some
23:34
resources how does that self-educate himself you know what would you recommend there yeah no and
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and that's the key and if you go back to when I first talked to Rick Adam and back in 05 or 06
23:45
I got to pull up the exact date but it was one of those years I was a really bad
23:50
discolidate at the time myself and probably the problem was as I probably thought I knew more than
23:55
I did and you talk about getting humbled in regards to holy cow you know I didn't know that much
24:03
but then it became empowering both personally because now I know what I needed to do I know how I
24:08
needed to save for myself and my family what I needed to do to create wealth and provide for them
24:12
so that I was financially secure I needed to learn all that because again I was part of that seven
24:18
I was not one of those 17 states that required testing on it so I didn't have the fiscal literacy
24:23
I came from a big family where we survived I had seven brothers and sisters so now you always talk
24:28
about we didn't know what stocks were we knew what storks were but not stocks so I didn't go
24:35
up with the silver spoon in my mouth I had to learn it all so I had to learn it so it's not like
24:40
Ed was really smart and again I'm not I had to learn it all so the best resource that's out there
24:46
is the guy we just mentioned it's Rick Edelman the guys written ten books on personal finance all
24:51
of them top of all of them top New York Times best sellers his first book is the book that you
24:57
want to pick up and read it's the truth about money he literally goes through this book and
25:03
just tells you everything you need to know about money start to finish you name it it's in that
25:08
book if it has a dollar sign in front of it and that's what I picked up and it's on its fourth
25:13
version now so make sure you get the the fourth version because obviously I think the first when
25:19
he did was in the late 80s and obviously the rules of money change over time ironically that's
25:25
the name of another book that he has so I just everything that I could get about Rick Edelman
25:30
I digest it all because he's out there as this person that's out there consumer you know educating
25:36
consumers with with fiscal literacy so become a student of of fiscal literacy a money yeah
25:44
money yeah there you go student yeah be a student of money don't be a mortgage person be a money
25:49
person it's so much bigger than the mortgage it's funny I mean we're we just again like Rick says
25:55
we just want to make this decision of 4.8 versus 5 because it's such a you know you can't be wrong
26:02
in that equation 4.8 is less than 5 that's 100% right you know that old thing if you argue with math
26:08
you will lose so that's where people go to so that they're right to making their decision what
26:15
they're doing though is they're ignoring all the other stuff well getting money away in your 401k
26:20
so that you have more money to get a 15 year fix there's a financial mistake but they don't
26:25
know this until we teach them that how do you though represent that because it's one thing to say
26:30
it right then how do you you know the old saying right you know I'll believe it when I see it or
26:35
if you're in Missouri it's a show me state right so if you're gonna say you know it's a mistake
26:40
to do a 15 year versus re reallocate that to a 401k how do you you know how do you get people
26:46
going bored with that exactly right so when somebody calls you can't say what I just said right
26:52
what do you mean you know that's that's computational so you have to just say to them so you're
26:56
looking at doing a 15 year fix and here's the in this even came in on that thread was the best
27:03
question that any of us can ask a consumer is why that's it why you want to do a 15 year fix why
27:11
you want to do 10% down like I had with that with with how I won that deal all I asked them is why
27:17
well I thought we had to do that well you thought wrong you don't have to so it's just asking them why
27:24
so if they come and say I want to do a 15 year fix why I don't want to have a mortgage and retirement
27:28
right that's sort of the answer it's like let me ask you a more important question is
27:33
do you max out the 401k that you have available to you at work today do you carry any debt
27:39
month to month that's bad debt high interest credit card that personal loans you name it all
27:44
that high interest non tax deductible debt stuff do you carry any of that debt month to month
27:49
do you have money if you have cash so if the roof leaks or the car breaks down or an appliance
27:54
goes out on you do you have cash you need to have we believe a six to twelve month fixed expense
27:59
rainy day account in cash just savings checking CD or money market so do you have all these now if
28:05
the person says yes hey Ed I maxed out my 401k last year 18,500 this year and I'm going to put
28:11
the same amount in this year I don't have any credit card debt that carries month to month in fact
28:15
I'm debt free I don't know anything and I've got 12 months set aside in my rainy day account
28:21
so 12 months of fixed expenses then go for it go do your 15 you don't need me
28:26
but here's the thing the number one thing that we require or we recommend our clients to do
28:32
to be getting to financial security faster is max out their 401k's at work only 6% of US workers do
28:40
that today so that's another survey they do every couple years and they find it is pretty steady
28:46
every year if you look at it for the last 10 years that really doesn't change that only 6% of US
28:50
workers will max out the maximum they can put into their 401k now that's not the maximum to meet
28:56
the company match that's the maximum the IRS allows you so if you're younger than 50 that number
29:03
today is 18,500 and if you're 50 or older that number is 24,500 yeah I'm following short myself
29:11
there you go look at that because here's the thing every dollar you don't put into your 401k
29:18
gets taxed both federal and state and on average you're going to lose 30% of it
29:24
that's a little different with the tax reform that we had but it's a good rule thumb so every dollar
29:29
that you've got that you're not taking and putting into your 401k and you take out his income it's
29:34
only 70 cents so now you're trying to create wealth with 30% of your resources just lit up
29:43
so it's very interesting as I'm listening to this I'm sure listeners as well right I think
29:48
the chair you want to put yourself is on the receiving end of this is the buyer who like in your case
29:54
that right we know buyers are probably multi-appling you today more than ever before as it's so much
30:00
easier right so how are you going to win that business when they come in like you said from the
30:05
start of our conversation when they are conditioned to you know think oh well 4.8's lower and
30:09
better than five right well then how do you because this is often what I hear today we talk
30:15
hey price versus advice how do you pivot that conversation though but to your point is it starts
30:19
with asking questions and getting it I like what you said at the start is getting the mortgage
30:24
conversation out of that silo of rate and mortgage yes yeah well it's funny because we're trying
30:31
to go to speed you know with with rocket mortgage and there's somebody else that's out there that's
30:38
thrown speed out there and that's great I get it I understand it but the problem with it is is
30:42
it's not about speed it's about putting the people in the best financial position that they can
30:50
be it well that's a key difference you see the loan officer that has to have that mindset well
30:56
they need to have the knowledge see I think the biggest weakness is that why I was not good at it
31:03
because I wasn't good at myself I didn't have the personal financial fiscal literacy myself so
31:07
what I had to do is do the exercise to you know what I mean I had to work out I had a financially
31:13
or fiscal literacy workout to get to where I'm at and I got to keep working out every day
31:19
Rick Edelman does a podcast we does a radio show every weekend that's syndicated across the country
31:25
and then he turns it into a podcast and it's on their website or on iTunes Monday or Tuesday
31:31
it's about two hours long because it's a two hour radio show and you cut out the commercials
31:34
that's a little bit less than that I listen to that every single week and I've done that for
31:41
10 plus years yeah this this will be my longest show note link podcast in history I think
31:47
because so far I've got like five links in there so for you listeners this awesome this is a
31:54
total resource package yeah that's it's very especially for new people younger people coming
32:00
into the business that maybe you know don't have the same bench or the background they don't
32:04
have that financial literacy training right and you and I talked about this before um and this
32:09
was part of that thread too the push button mortgage uh you know if we are getting if margins are
32:15
getting pushed and it's getting more competitive and you know people are willing to lose money
32:18
sometimes the wind deals right how do we win how do we win more often and it's going to come back
32:23
to that advice if you can control the conversation and capture their attention with something to educate
32:29
them on teach them something you just hit me on the head we just need to teach them something they
32:34
don't already know if we teach them something that they don't already know that's in their best
32:39
interest that's going to improve them especially if it's going to help them out financially to get
32:44
the financial security faster we're not going to win every deal but we're going to win 70 80 90
32:50
percent of those deals because there are people that will take my advice and go somewhere else it
32:55
happens there's nothing you can do about that but most people don't because they want to stay with
33:00
you because they understand that after the loan closes they want to call you with other questions
33:04
that you're going to be able to help them with that are mortgage questions that are money questions
33:08
I think I asked you that before is because we know there's a certain percentage of the market okay
33:13
you got your a-50 feco engineer working at the big tech company who's making you know six figures
33:20
and he's got it you know money in the he knows he's a paper right right are you saying that you're
33:26
you know you you accept you're going to lose x percentage of those types of clients yeah if he's
33:31
maxing out 401k doing all the right things what I can't teach him anything if he already knows it
33:36
I can't help him well how about not even that where it's like you know somebody as I'm sure you get
33:40
these calls somebody and they they just know they're a rock solid a I'll give you an example of
33:45
much my brother's listening forgive me Brian but so you know more analytical knows knows the game
33:53
so to speak and all he cares about is the lowest rate because he knows dude I got my whole I've
33:57
already I just know I want a 30 year fixed I want the lowest fee lowest cost you know that's all I
34:01
care about yeah as long as they're fiscally smart and I can't teach him anything I there's not much
34:07
I can bring to the game so they've they're they they've rewarded themselves by knowing all that
34:13
that they don't need me and they can just go find someone you know that will do it for nothing do
34:18
you here's a question do you think though that the average consumer looks to the loan officer as
34:25
being fiscally knowledgeable no no way and when I start asking people questions about maxing out
34:33
their 401k and do they carry bad dad month the month and do they have six to 12 months and cash
34:39
after the closing they're like blown away I mean no one I become sort of like their blue color
34:45
financial planner that it's sort of like they've never had a financial planner before they just
34:51
been trying to do it on their own and they've been able to get by but they're not making their money
34:55
work for them the best like I said they want to grow their wealth but they take their 401k is
35:01
they don't put it in the 401k so they take that income and right away they're losing 30% of their
35:06
investing power give me a sense of if you can of you know people are conditioned to call you up
35:12
and just hey Jeff or I'm sorry hey Ed this is Jeff yeah I got your referral from you know Suzy
35:17
Q over at the remax real estate she said I should call you so yeah what's your interest rate
35:24
you just got to take a step back so he's in the silo right someone's like what is that death
35:30
you know like that what's that WWF thing where you have the cage fighting or whatever cage match yeah
35:37
yeah so it's like that right away that guy's in the cage match with you and you got to get him out
35:41
of the cage so you just got to take a step back and just say hey what's going on Jeff tell me a
35:47
little bit about your situation do you own something now or do you rent what are you looking to buy
35:51
how much you're looking to put down where's that money coming from you just kind of start to
35:55
prove to say okay yeah you're you're fine everything you're saying is fine but how many people will
36:01
say like with the 10% for the 5% you know I'm gonna liquidate my 401k to get that money no that's
36:07
the worst thing you could do let me explain to you why so we really got to start to make sure that
36:13
they know what they're doing again it's not an egotistic thing that I know more than other people
36:18
with money that's not bad it's just that unfortunately I spend so much time that I do know a lot
36:25
about money that I need to make sure that the people are doing it the right way if I get the
36:28
loan or not I just want to make that person's not putting themselves into a worse position
36:33
I financially yeah for those that want to quit yet I think it's what you we said before it's
36:39
if you can educate them on one thing they didn't know before that's in their best case and I got
36:45
to find it so what I got to do is I got it I had one with a guy that's like yeah it I already
36:50
maxed out my 401k and I go on how old are you I'm 53 I go so you put in $24,000 he goes no I
36:56
only put in 18,000 that's the max wise guy you know he didn't say it but that's how I get back
37:01
and that's what I had to come back to him and say you're mistaken there's something called the
37:05
ketchup clause let me just educate you on that boobaboo and you got to do it I mean it's not
37:09
it's not the way that's coming off now and you can do it kind of sending you just you got to let
37:14
him know and he's like are you serious I my account never told me about that that was words
37:20
and I said sometimes it just gets lost or they think you know and you don't and I'm just the
37:26
guy that's just making sure that you know all the things that are out there that are working for you
37:30
and he's like wow I can now and and I don't remember the exact situation but just think if that
37:34
was the guy that was going to go to the 15 now he can go back to a 30 cut his payment and now he's
37:39
got the money he needs to do to put that extra six thousand dollars into the 401k and this goes
37:45
without saying it's obvious but what is this this style of conversation due to build trust which
37:51
is really what we want to achieve correct yeah it's it and that's what it's all about you know
37:57
trusted advisor gets known around a lot I don't know if Todd Duncan was the first one to throw
38:00
that out or who did doesn't matter but that's what we're looking for is someone that they know
38:06
is looking out for their best interest and you've proven that you know and what we have to do like
38:11
we said is identify where there's some area that they don't know that we can just plant the seed
38:16
and educate them on and then that just shows that hey this guy's not trying to sell me anything
38:21
he's trying to educate me yeah that's good stuff all right so real quickly let's transition to talk
38:26
about your sources of business if I remember correctly you're pretty strong with past clients
38:33
yeah past well and it's fortunate I mean all those builder loans that we did for 15 years I've
38:38
been in touch with everybody you know over all the years no it's not fortunate you it's very
38:43
intentional because you know as well as I do a lot of LOs have no past client database that I've
38:48
been doing it 20 years yeah and it's just sad I mean I read a book long time ago and again this
38:54
was a majestic book Tom Ward picked it up and then he recommended all of us called the one-to-one
38:59
future and basically just talks about how market share is not important share customers important
39:05
you know who cares about market share it's share a customer that's what's important and learn
39:11
that from the get-go and you know just that's what I focus on is just taking care of that client and
39:16
not letting them go and staying on top of them and always being there well what do you do
39:23
proactively then to you know scrub the past clients to the generate business always pulling
39:29
reports always making sure so my tagline is making sure that clients have the lowest mortgage payment
39:34
possible okay because if I can get you the lowest mortgage payment possible then it frees up cash
39:39
flow for you to hit those other areas in that holistic financial picture that you need to be putting
39:44
more money towards retirement saving for the kids college paying off bad debt growing the rainy
39:49
day fund well let me let me get more specific for for my intent with that question I know your
39:54
busy guy how do you structure that activity into your calendar you know you time blocking past client
40:00
calls or what does that look like right to tell pulling reports and on a regular basis going through
40:06
five obviously is interest rates fall I've got an automated system I'll put a shout out for optimal
40:12
blue here optimal blue has an amazing system that will track interest rates so when I close the
40:18
and this is a great sales feature up front I always say I'm going to get you the you know the best
40:21
I can get you today but don't worry about it because I have an alert system that when you close the
40:26
next day I set up an alert and it rates fall 50 basis points I'll send you an email automatically
40:31
we'll watch the market minute by minute day by day so we'll get you the best today but then don't
40:35
worry about it we're going to get you the best throughout you being in the life of this house
40:39
an optimal blue has an awesome system where you're able to set all that up takes a second to do
40:43
and then it's just watching their profile and the minute that the market allows us to hit that
40:48
it sends out emails so setting that up for every client is a must and then just going through
40:54
you know people that have MI right now that I can either go to LPMI or get them out of MI
40:59
getting people out of FHAs the conventionals so everything just any way I can save somebody $100
41:06
think about this if I can save someone a hundred dollars that's a hundred and fifty dollars before
41:13
taxes because remember if you take out a hundred and fifty dollars of income instead of putting
41:20
in your 401k you're going to only be left with a hundred bucks after its tax so a hundred dollars
41:25
on a savings for a mortgage is a hundred and fifty that you can now put in your 401k a hundred
41:29
fifty dollars compounding at eight percent over 30 years is $225,000 are you having that kind of
41:37
conversation with people absolutely absolutely yeah again back to being fiscally literate right
41:45
you got to understand the power of money and how money works right this is what this is the
41:50
industry we're in we are we are selling money we used to say that you know when we are single
41:55
you know that'd be a line you know what do you do for living I sell money how's that working for
42:01
yeah yeah and people be like you know oh hey what's going on tell me more about that you know
42:07
that can even be a Tom Wardline now that I think about it but you know but that's what we do we sell
42:12
money yes and we sell tax deductible money think about it we sell the only debt that's still tax
42:19
deductible can't do with credit cards anymore Reagan took that away took away auto loan interest
42:24
deduction that's gone mortgage interest is only tax deductible in high states where we've lost
42:30
high tax states where we've lost the salts in the property tax cap at 10,000 mortgage interest is
42:35
more important than ever you really regret paying off your mortgage now if you paid it off and
42:40
not have that right off anymore with the tax changes so we sell the only debt that's tax deductible
42:46
we sell money and if you don't understand money and its holistic sense and you're just having that
42:52
conversation in the silo no wonder they're shopping you and no wonder you're in a competition
42:59
because we're not educating them on the much bigger picture how you handle your mortgage is going
43:04
to impact all those other areas that we talked about do you have any I'm just curious you may not
43:09
because you know you've been doing this so long it's just natural for you but I know some some
43:14
loan officers like to use a like a script at the beginning that's a point of differentiation
43:19
when you're first meeting a client that you know tries to keep it out of the silo that you know
43:23
something that sounds like you know I'm not like most other loan officers and here's what I mean by
43:28
that or you know anything you know I'm getting out there I don't anymore I did at the time but now
43:34
it's just repetition you know I've got I was telling you before I'm at the office today and I
43:40
got a TV in the background I got the masters on and these guys are so good right
43:46
mm-hmm because of how much time they put in right right so why I'm really fluid with this stuff
43:53
like I am I've had this conversation hundreds if not thousands of times and the first couple times
44:00
you know I wish we would have taped them and gone back it would have been embarrassing if you
44:03
like looking at yourself you know as a freshman at high school or something you'd laugh you know
44:06
I didn't have a clue but you had a start and then you just get better and better and better over time
44:12
that's true yeah just like riding the bike man you got to just you don't do it yeah
44:18
I'm watching that I got the TV on the background now and they got the range they got all these pros
44:22
right they're all on the range they're showing uh which is named Yannick Spenstrom or whatever's
44:27
name is and he's out there he's hitting balls this guy's a pro he's a professional he's one
44:34
majors but look at he's working on his game it's pretty amazing when you think about that from an
44:39
algae standpoint and it kind of reminds me of that old story I think it was from Ted Williams
44:43
and the Red Sox if I'm correct if that was the example where you know somebody or it could have
44:48
been a golfer you may know better than me but somebody you know basically said gee I really wish
44:53
I could hit like you do and he turns at him like no you don't because you're not willing to
44:58
you know hang in here and swing the club until your hands are bloody exactly right exactly we
45:04
all want that we all want success but we don't want to put anything in unfortunately and I say that
45:09
in general I say that general bird was that way I think bird he used to like he had to hit a hundred
45:14
free throws in a row before he would leave the practice he'd be the last one on the floor every
45:18
single time because he wouldn't quit until he had a hundred in a row or something like that crazy
45:24
let's see other one I heard the other day uh everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die
45:29
there you go or do the things or to do the things that you need to do on earth to get to have it
45:35
right exactly so going back to what you said so past clients past client referrals huge part of
45:42
my business um one of the big things uh-huh moments came is when Rick Adam said to me you need
45:48
to be a fiscal literate you need to have holistic conversations with clients so you got to get
45:52
really smart and and what I'd recommend you to do Ed is I'd recommend you to actually become an
45:58
investment advisor go out and get your series 65 and become an investment advisor so that you
46:03
know it and then you have a personal license now so you can give fiscal advice and financial advice
46:10
because you have a license to do so now do you need a license to tell somebody put all their money
46:15
you know put the maximum away in their 401k or stay out of long term debt or grow a rainy day fund
46:21
but if you really want to nail this you really need to start to understand it all because there's
46:26
deeper questions that come around and I want to answer those I don't want to push them off on
46:30
anybody else I want to be the one that's managing that so what Rick Adam and said to me is here's my
46:35
advice if I were you I would stay licensed obviously as an MLS mortgage advisor but get licensed
46:41
as a fin real licensed series 65 therefore you're an investment advisor therefore you can give
46:47
the advice and if you do that I'll make a deal you refer clients to me since your license I can
46:53
compensate you back if they put assets under management with us I'm a client full disclosure I'm
46:59
a client of Rick Edelman's firm Edelman Financial so it was a natural segue to say why wouldn't I
47:05
refer people to the place that I'm at what greater and I researched everybody and I'm with Rick
47:11
because he's the best not because I'm getting money for it and then it just made sense when people
47:16
say who should I manage my money with let me tell you about the number one advisor rated by Forbes
47:21
three times as number one excuse me rated by barons financial press three times as a number one
47:27
advisor and Forbes just last year named on the number three advisor in the whole country guy who's
47:31
written ten bucks on personal finance and their firms managing you know 35,000 families and
47:37
oh they don't have that high minimum either I mean you can place money with Rick with a little
47:41
with three thousand dollars so these are these are the down to earth advisors that are helping just
47:47
ordinary folks out there. So are you saying for some listening that might be an appropriate route
47:53
for them to take as well? So I created my own company National Advisors Network and it's open to
48:00
any one to join if you want to get your series 65 you can join National Advisors Network have your
48:05
series 65 so you can give the holistic advice and then you could be under I firm National Advisors Network
48:12
and you could refer to Edelman Financial and get compensated for it. And is there a website?
48:19
About another source of income. Yeah right. Do you have a website for National Advisors Network?
48:24
A National Advisors Network.com very basic but yeah you can check that out.
48:29
No I'm asking because it's another show link you know in the notes here. Yeah we're trying to
48:33
break the record on links here. Oh you got it already. No but that's very interesting for those that
48:38
are of course now I know for you for percentage of business realtors versus like financial planners
48:45
advisors you're working with some financial advisors yeah. So what's cool about it is Rick Edelman
48:50
has offices locally in the Chicago land area two offices and then he's got two offices in Michigan
48:56
so they asked me to get licensed in Michigan since I'm not far. So I work with the Edelman
49:01
advisors in those two arenas. I've picked my boys in there and I've gone with Edelman Financial
49:06
and not other advisors. I think it's a conflict of interest you know what I mean. I don't want to
49:10
ever be caught in a situation where they're accusing me of referring one of their clients to Edelman.
49:14
It would never happen. I would never breach that but it's just not worth it. So I work with those
49:18
advisors and then work with my clients and just educating everybody I can. My realtor base is very small.
49:26
I can name five we one or two that I get regular business from and I don't even rely on any of
49:33
that business. One of the things that I think I mentioned this to you before one of the hardest
49:36
things for me working with realtors is that when I talk to clients I'm not trying to get them to
49:42
buy a home and get a mortgage. What amazes me but all the people I know in the mortgage industry
49:48
on Facebook is how a lot of times mortgage loan officers are trying to sell me a house.
49:56
This is this open house that's going on. You need to buy a home. There's 12 reasons why it's
50:00
better to own versus rent all this stuff. You're trying to sell me a house. You're a mortgage
50:03
person. You need to just handle the mortgage side but instinctively in our industry we think some
50:08
reason we got to have people buy homes because we've created if they buy a home we're going to get
50:12
a mortgage out of it and you can't do that. You can't go in with that preconceived notion. You got
50:17
to go in open-minded and saying let's go through the finances here to see if buying a home is the
50:21
right thing for you. Wait, you're thinking about moving in two to three years? That's the last
50:25
thing you should be doing is buying a home. No way. The cost that you're going to have to pay to get
50:30
out of that home to the realtor and the transfer tax, the attorney, the title fees. You'll never make it.
50:36
And now we see that's a little bit biased. I'm in Illinois where we're still below the
50:40
cashier or home price index. We're still 18% below the cashier or home price index in 2006.
50:45
So we're not growing and getting back to where we need to be. So in Illinois if something
50:50
about a home in three years they're not going to see that much appreciation but they're going to have
50:53
all these costs that they had to put in to buy the home and all the cost to sell the home and all
50:56
the cost to maintain it while it's in there. So home ownership is the right thing over long
51:01
period of time. We usually Rick Edelman's been saying for 30 years, buy a home as long as you
51:05
know you're for sure you're going to be in there five to seven years. Preferably longer so that
51:10
those costs you know flatten out. There's many at times it's like no way I wouldn't recommend you buy
51:15
today. You're going to you're going to take all that money put in the house and be house rich and
51:19
cash or what happens if the hot water here goes out? Who's going to pay for it? Now you're going to go
51:22
back into debt and it's going to be a spiral. So we have to be independent and objective looking out
51:27
for their best interest. We can't just be doing rubber stamps approved, approved, approved, approved
51:31
because it's pay day, pay day, pay day, pay day. You can't do that. So I had it where with realtor
51:37
relationships when I really started to take on this role they would refer me someone and I'd
51:41
look through and go yeah we can really get you an FHA alone. We could do duct tape and bob wire
51:45
get you into this thing but you're going to be house rich and poor and cash poor and you're one
51:51
appliance away from this starting to fall and plus your housing cost is going to go up from where
51:55
you're at today and you haven't been able to save anything where you're at today. No that's
52:01
interesting. It's a great point and I think that goes back to you know the fiscal literacy one
52:06
but also more importantly you know having your clients best interests in mind above all else.
52:12
So as a series 65 I have a fiduciary. I have a commitment and a vow that I have to give
52:18
all interest and the best I have to give all advice and the best interest of the consumer
52:22
by client first and foremost and I carry that fiduciary over to my mortgage practice and I believe
52:29
that it does concern me sometimes in our industry fights that we should be looking out for the
52:34
best interest of the client each and every time yeah yeah absolutely and you've got it and
52:38
that best interest isn't what they can do today it's what's over the long time I heard something
52:43
a long time ago that said as a professional my as a professional in a professional role my job
52:50
is to tell you what you need to hear not what you want to hear and think of as any professional
52:55
doctor you know lawyer whatever I'm not going to tell you which you want to hear but how many
53:00
times do we do that you know or it's like we want to tell them what they want to hear we can't
53:04
do that we have to tell them what they need to hear because we need to make sure when they look up
53:08
five or ten years they're better off with us helping them than worse off. That's great advice
53:15
I agree 100% man like because that's just going to show up in you know the trust we create
53:20
the communication even if they wind up you know saying or agreeing it's a you know what you're
53:25
right I've talked about it with my wife or whatever and god yeah as much as we want to buy we do
53:30
think we need to wait a year or whatever and they feel better with that decision than feeling
53:35
pressured to get into a house that is going to pay off for you and referrals down the road.
53:41
I just closed the loan last week they called me five years ago and they were living in the
53:47
basement of their in-laws and it was terrible and they were commute the commute was terrible
53:51
it was just they were at a bad place but they didn't have any money and they're they
53:56
these jobs they were in weren't there go-to jobs they were just sort of working there to make income
54:01
and they didn't say had any money saved and it was just like okay here's what we need to do
54:07
you've got a goal to buy a home I love it let's put you in and I go but let's do this
54:11
and I'd get a call from over six to twelve months religiously okay it's time and I'd go through
54:16
and I go no it's not you haven't done this this and this finally it was time they had saved up
54:21
but now they have plenty of money to put down and they still have money left over so they're not
54:25
going to be how to how to rich and cash poor and he's like I just want to thank you for stopping
54:30
us every time we wanted to push it because we just wanted that cam a lot now that was going to be
54:35
like that would solve the problems if we just were homeowners and we've come to realize that
54:40
it's the best thing that we didn't do because where we would have bought is probably 50 miles
54:44
away of where we actually are buying now and it wouldn't have worked and if we would have bought
54:48
and we would have been in a worse position and we would have took a you know we would have took the
54:52
hit financially if we had a cell to come back up here and I'm sure they were like now you know
54:59
hey and we appreciate all the advice and the help over the years but man I mean your rate's kind of
55:03
high yeah not at all right they're like just tell us what to do exactly the cool thing is is
55:14
don't worry about it you know get in now and if rates fall we'll refinance you down the road
55:19
and if they go up you're going to be happy we did what we did when we did it so it's a no-lose
55:24
situation yep it's about like I love it the fiduciary responsibility it's about serving you know
55:29
being a go-give versus a go-taker all right so we're out of time but I wanted to get the the quick
55:35
take the Ed's prediction the future of the mortgage loan officer and what does that look like say
55:43
three to five years from now for those that are going to survive well I I always said I'm a trend
55:49
setter my wife and daughters may well you're sure you're sure proves that I really think what
56:00
I'm doing I'm very fortunate to have sort of fallen into this and and met Rick and had him point
56:07
me in the right direction because I think he's way ahead of his time and he obviously was the one
56:13
that said you you got to be more than the mortgage person you got to be the money person so I think
56:18
that's it I really think is because sort of the summarize what we've talked about here because this
56:24
is one of their biggest money decisions and remember I'm saying money not mortgage and that's what
56:28
makes it different you got to change that in your mind but it's the one who can teach fiscal
56:33
literacy to help people I have a saying on my email if you ever email me you'll see it that I
56:39
don't believe the American dream is to merely own a home you know I think our industry a lot of times
56:45
the real estate industry and the mortgage industry we want to make that the American dream because
56:49
that's our dream right because if everybody's out getting out mortgages and take you know buying
56:54
homes and take it out mortgages we're gonna get rich no the American dream is not that on a home the
56:58
American dream is bigger than that it's to have financial security right I mean think about it
57:04
think of all the people that are lined up outside that convenience store liquor store gas station when
57:08
the mega ball gets really big they want financial security and they want it tonight at nine you know
57:14
when they pull the ball yeah that they don't look at it and say hey I want 300 million dollars now
57:19
I got to go out and buy 300 million dollar houses no it's not about the house it's about the money
57:26
and I don't mean that in a negative way it's just that financial security brings on
57:32
the best you know they they say um financial family dysfunction comes number one reason is from
57:39
finances so if we can get finances and get people in great financial positions then everybody's
57:45
gonna be better off so yeah the home is part of it but when I came to the realization that's just
57:51
one piece of the puzzle that's not the whole puzzle that's when everything changed and you start
57:55
looking out for the best interest your clients start saying okay we can do this but let's just
57:59
make sure we should be doing this because there's other fish to fry out then when it comes down to
58:03
money right on man I love it I love it big takeaways be fiscally literate get yourself educated so
58:10
you can separate yourself by teaching the clients on the call one thing they didn't know before that's
58:15
in their best interest that for me is a real big takeaway here and we're gonna put all the links
58:21
to the show notes in this I think I'm counting let's see one two three about eight different show
58:25
notes links that's awesome lastly for anybody who wants to connect with you what's the best way
58:29
online Facebook what um yeah anyway I mean I I think today we have to do a little bit of everything
58:35
I'm a LinkedIn I'm on Facebook um I have I don't really get into Twitter but I know my Facebook
58:40
post link over to Twitter um you know obviously online go to edconerkey.com or edconerkey.biz it
58:48
feeds the both places are the same um you can even go to my website just to see how it's different
58:53
you know I'm I'm right away got a video there telling people what I'm doing you know then I am
58:57
different and I'm not you know scared to say that I'm different that I really want to
59:02
have them teach the stuff differently um I'd say that's probably the best go to edconerkey.com
59:07
and all my contact information is there drop me an email uh reach out by phone phone numbers
59:12
there whatever I answer my own phone you know I just it's just you know I think a lot of times we
59:17
get so like think it's got to be so I don't know big picture in in our industry I got to have
59:23
all these assistance and all these people and uh again like I said I say this to you I don't
59:29
think it's about how much value you do mm-hmm it's about your margins and your profit totally yeah
59:36
what you said was you know you and I forget the exact number of units or whatever and we don't
59:41
have used it and you talked about units I hate to talk about this like what's your profitability
59:45
you're running a business yeah right um I mean but what the hell you've done like what 4,000
59:50
loans in your lifetime so well and I just think that yeah that's a great number but if I'm not
59:54
making anything on those so it just got to be a bounce you've got to provide value and it's got
1:00:00
a like we said price versus advice you got to provide the value and in exchange is that you're
1:00:04
going to get compensated for it but you're you're giving away more than what you're charging for
1:00:09
that's for sure awesome well listen I appreciate your time and uh I know you're watching
1:00:14
the masters so won't competing for you I go live feed now so I gotta I gotta it goes live
1:00:19
on ESPN now so I gotta get uh that's awesome we appreciate you being here man and listeners uh
1:00:25
I hope you enjoyed today's episode as always if you like it please leave us a comment
1:00:29
a rating on iTunes or Stitcher wherever you're listening and all the links are going to be in
1:00:34
today's show notes so I do appreciate you guys for tuning in and we will see you on the next one
1:00:40
bye for now thanks for listening to mortgage marketing radio one more truth in mortgage marketing
1:00:46
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