Latest / Art of the Question / The Incredible Benefits of Fiber - Prof. Jens Walter - #46

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The Incredible Benefits of Fiber - Prof. Jens Walter - #46 · Art of the Question

• Julius Moorman: Again, thank you so much for for coming on the show. ⁓ discussion of today is going to be fiber. I mean, you are in the space obviously, so you can't have missed that. ⁓ there's a lot going on around fiber right now. ⁓ it's on every product in the supermarket, it obviously states ⁓ high in fiber. ⁓ there's all these influencers promoting fiber, and I believe for the first time in history, at least in the United States. ⁓ the word fiber has overtaken protein in Google searches. So I think that speaks to ⁓ the moment fiber is having, ⁓ which I think can be a good thing, right? It's always good when people try to improve their health and and do research onto ⁓ what works and what doesn't. But as always, because there's money involved, ⁓ there's always also going to be some ⁓ nuances. ⁓ to be made. So I hope ⁓ the goal of today's discussion is to kind of understand what fiber is, ⁓ why it's important for our bodies, ⁓ what is true and and where ⁓ the the yeah advice ends and where we should be a little careful not to ⁓ go overboard ⁓ with it. But first of all I thought it would be interesting to understand ⁓ How you got into ⁓ this space? You are a professor of ecology, food and microbiome at the University of College Cork. ⁓ yeah, how did you first get interested into studying ⁓ this topic and and into this ⁓ field of work and ⁓ work and and what fascinates you about it? Yeah, thanks, Julius. Thanks for having me. ⁓ so the ⁓ it's a long story how I got into fiber. So I'm ⁓ actually I graduated in food science. in Germany many, many years ago, and then food science in the day, Lebensmitteltechnologie. So they there, you know, people became very interested in these pro and prebiotics. And this is then the reason why I became interested in the gut microbiome, not really knowing anything about it, ⁓ went to New Zealand, did a ⁓ part of my PhD and my postdoc there, and ⁓ the the the scientist I worked with there, Cheryl Tannock, he was really you know, more basic microflora research or how we called it in the day. ⁓ and that fascinated me. So I got more interested in ecology because these are communities, ecosystems, you know, many, many microbial species working together and influencing our health. So then continued in my first academic positions to work on prebiotics, and which are most of which are just dietary fibers, but that's not even how we saw them in the day. But then in this work, ⁓ being interested in modulating microbiomes, I got more interested than in dietary fibre supplements, more complex fibers, and then even whole diets. But but fiber was always a you know main motivation. And I think that the reason for this is that I ⁓ you know like to to feel the the the the gut microbiome from an evolutionary and ecological perspective. And I got very, very ⁓ fascinated by ⁓ you know, scientists like Dennis Fulkit, for example, who ⁓ you know, made the argument that that humans evolved with diets that are substantially different than the the modern diets that we are eating today. And dietary fiber is at least one of the key differentiators, yeah. So this is really the story how I got more and more than also, you're not interested in In studying not only fiber supplements, but also diets that are very, very rich in dietary fiber. But it's always, it's always, you know, ⁓ from the angle of what is it actually doing to our microbes in the gut. Yeah, super interesting. And what do you think would make most sense if we do a short introduction to the gut microbiome and how our gut operates as some sort of ecosystem before in we get into what fiber actually is because that may help us understand what fiber does, or do you think it would be more helpful to to get right into fiber? I mean I look I I always like talking about the microbiome. Yeah. So and I c and I can and I it's also you know, scientists view the microbiome very different because if you talk to clinicians, you know, they're obviously more focused on the role of the microbiome in diseases. And I'm I'm doing that too, but I come from a different angle. So I'm interested in the microbiome as a part of human biology. So I view humans or mammals as hosts of of these microbial communities that then establish a symbiosis. Yeah. And I do think this is a really, really helpful framework and it's it's very well supported in biology. If you look at mammals like, you know, sheep, cow, herbivores, you know, kangaroos, they're not mammals, but but you know, but ⁓ the you know without microbiomes they would not even be able to cover their ic their their nutritional niche you know humans are in the middle we are omnivores you know but these these microbiomes are still key in preventing infections contributing to nutrient ⁓ acquisition ⁓ and also in in the education of the immune system we get much much more of an idea so for me this is this is the the the the counterpoint we've evolved with these microbiomes all mammals have without the symbiosis you know herbivore lifestyles wouldn't exist, or most of them wouldn't exist. And with this, there would be no carnivore lifestyles because they have to carnivores have to ⁓ eat something. So it's a it's a fundamental, I would say, tenant of of biology. And then I d ⁓ I do think that diseases that are linked to the microbiome are primarily caused by the microbiome being disrupted. You know, so this is one hypothesis why we think so many of these chronic diseases Like obesity, type two diabetes, you know, autoimmune conditions, while they are increasing in the modern world and they're increasing with, you know, essentially a an affluent lifestyle. So one hypothesis is that due to the food we're eating, the antibiotics we are taking, you know, the clean living conditions, you know, that we've disrupted our microbiome, and this is ⁓ I would say increasingly well understood and also accepted. and this is ⁓ my kind of, you know basis for how I view the links between the microbiome and then these chronic diseases, which I think then provides also an avenue for how we might want to modulate these microbiomes. And again puts points to things like dietary fiber, you know, which have been part of of human diets in very, very high, you know, levels, you know, and they are much, much less now. So this is one of these potential mechanisms by which our modern lifestyle disrupts the microbiome and then contributes to chronic disease. Yeah, so for people who have zero understanding about the gut microbiome, ⁓ if we if we can briefly ⁓ get into the system, how that works, ⁓ what gut microbiome are, and why we need them and and why we actually involved ⁓ needing these these gut microbiomes to to keep our gut healthy because they're essentially living organisms within an organism, in this case the human body. That is correct. Yeah, so our We are colonized all over our body and in our digestive tract by microbial communities. So we're talking about bacteria, archaea, fungi, yeasts, a lot of viruses actually. Bacteriophages are the viruses that actually have bacteria as host. And these communities ⁓ you know are complex and they're very, very cell dense. I think that I think it's always good to remember ourselves. We have ⁓ probably roughly as many bacteria in our gut as we have human cells. Yeah. So also it's it's a substantial, you know, s density of cells and they are metabolically active. And ⁓ as I mentioned, they have evolved in tandem or these communities have evolved in tandem with mammals. You know, they breed also this interrelationship predates humans human existence. You know, as it it it it goes back and bacteria are obviously on the planet way longer than animals are. So so this is, you know, as we basically have to evolve in a microbial world and then but then acquired these very specialized communities and and essentially co evolved with them. And this is really where, you know, then these these microbes they can actually and again, dietary fiber is a great example. Yeah, these microbes have essentially equipped us with functions that we have had never to have evolved on our own as as humans. Like for example, the degradation of fiber, but also other things. Yeah. So the micro complex microbial communities living in a symbiosis with us as toast, providing essential biological functions that have influenced our evolution and are still important today, you know, to actually stay healthy. Yeah, that's very interesting, right? Because it seems if if you don't really think about it, that having alien organisms basically ⁓ that aren't produced by our own bodies, if you will, but they are their own individual organisms, ⁓ might be something that our bodies might get rid of. But because they were super good at fulfilling certain functions, we've kind of evolved alongside these microbiomes and and and work in symbiosis now, work together to keep ⁓ well, both the the microbiome healthy but also the human body. So what actually is their purpose? What are the mechanics going on there? How how these microbiomes keep our our bodies healthy? I mean there are probably dozens of different functions that are heavily discussed. So I like to focus on the three that I think are the most important for evolution. And that is nutrient acquisition. So they digest, for example, dietary fibers are compounds that ca we can't utilize. And they provide nutrients and in herbivores such as cows, this provides almost their entire nutrition because they don't have the enzymes, you know, to to digest crust, for example. In humans it's less extreme, but we still think around ten on a on a fibroid diet, we think around ten percent the energy is provided through this fermentation with, you know, throughout evolution was probably quite significant. ⁓ and now in the modern world this is again interesting because we are we're living in an overabundance of food now, so so there is a lot of interest in, you know, how these microbial communities might contribute to obesity, for example. Then another key function is ⁓ it's a trait called colonization resistance. So these microbial communities prevent pathogens from colonizing. And this is something you see if you take an antibiotic and you get diarrhea. That is that you know, that you you you kind of Disrupt your your your healthy microbiome, your non-pathogen can grow up. And there's this glostridiard difficile infection, which is getting increasingly common and it's a very serious, you know, ⁓ you know infection of the gut linked to bloody diarrhea and and a lot of death, you know. So this is a you know many of us have this bacterium, this C. diff in our gut, but it is really through antibiotics, you know, that that. we that we d reduce this this colonization resistance and that pathogen then can grow up and and basically make us sick and it's a it's a s significant problem. And then the last one that I think is really important is is the education of the immune system. So if we raise mammals germ free, which we can do in a lab and in and and maintain them in plastic bubble, their immune system is completely different. Yeah so also these these even these healthy microbial communities You know, stimulate the immune system, change how how immune cells function, how they work. And this is very, very important. And this is also why the, you know, assembly process of the microbiome early in life is so key, because this is that that period of immune development. And we think that microbiomes are very important here. And this again, you know, it has now major implications. You know, how we see microbiomes, you know, for example, in certain Immune-mediated diseases, but also in when we when we look at treatments, you know, that target the immune system, because the microbiome really determines how they actually work. So these are the three most important. There are other researchers, you know, look at the brain. There's this famous gut-brain axis. ⁓ you know, there are other links to the to metabolism, there are many, many interactions with with you know toxins. There's probably certain functions of the microbiome, specifically in some mammals, to detoxify. you know, not so good as ⁓ you know, components of diet. So there's there's many, many, many things that microbiomes do, but but the three that I mentioned are are the ones I'm the most interested in. Yeah. So extremely important. And when we think about our diet and what we put into our bodies, what we eat on a day, we often think of nutrition to feed Our own bodies, perhaps. ⁓ that's why protein is so popular, right? We need to be have the the the the protein in our diets to ⁓ keep our muscles healthy and to promote recovery, ⁓ carbohydrates for for for for energy. I know fiber is a is a type of of carbohydrate, but we think of these different compounds, these different ingredients that we put into our bodies to feed ourselves. But in order to keep these microbiome healthy and and alive. They need nutrition as well, which ⁓ they can choose what we put into our body. So we have to make important decisions on what to eat, not only to feed ourselves, but also to keep the microbiome ⁓ healthy and and and happy, if you will. ⁓ I think that's where a lot of the where where fiber enters into the discussion. It's often ⁓ mentioned in relation to keeping the the gut microbiome healthy among some other ⁓ yogurts for example. so so what actually is fiber? Well when we're talking about dietary fiber and and the fiber that we find in foods or or supplements? So dietary fiber by definition are carbohydrates that escape human digestion. Okay. So our you know digestive drug is not producing enzymes To degrade these carbohydrates. I think we produce primarily alpha amylase and other amyolytic enzymes, meaning we can degrade starch, and that's pretty much it. You know, so when it comes to compounds such as cellulose, arabinoxylan, you know, acacia, gum, pectin, you know, many of these carbohydrates that you find in diet, we simply do not have the enzymes to actually degrade them. So everything that survives this digestive process. checked you know was was called dietary fiber or roughage in in the day. And because it it escapes human digestion, it makes it into more distal parts of the gastrointestinal tract, specifically then the colon, where then a lot of the bacteria can actually utilize it. It provides crow substrates. And as you as you said, you know, this is an important aspect of maintaining a healthy microbiome, not only in terms of composition, but also in terms of what that microbiome does. So if you if if you give, you know, ⁓ the microbiome a lot of carbohydrates in the form of dietary fiber, they produce metabolites like these short chain fatty acids that are considered, you know, health promoting, they interact with the immune system. I I mentioned, you know, how I think immune development is an important aspect. So, you know, metabolites that directly result from fiber fermentations are important there. But there are other really interesting things. You mentioned, you know, if you don't feed these microbes enough, they they get I think you you imply they get lost. They actually don't get lost. It's quite interesting. You might lose some of them. But what they actually do is they turn their attention against the mucus layer. So also we produce, you know, our own dietary fiber in the form of these mucoe carbohydrates that are on you know constantly excreted into the gut and they form a protective layer on the epithelium. So if you eat a refined diet, also without dietary fiber, and this is very well understood. These microbes actually start decreating this protective mucus layer. And then they evade, you know, the epithelium and actually drive a not so good immune response. And this is very, very interesting. So essentially, if you starve your microbiome, the microbiome feeds on your mucus layer, and that then actually, you know, causes inflammation. And is in in animal models, this is extremely well established that it actually causes pathologies. You know, that are similar to the chronic diseases that we see increasing in the modern world now. Very interesting. So so the the the mucus layer, w what are some of the ⁓ things that can happen to our bodies? You mentioned them briefly, but if we if we can zoom into ⁓ a few of those, is it also maybe not at all, I don't know. But w a leaky gut, for example, is the term. That is probably the you know, that is the term that that that dominates now the ⁓ ⁓ you know, the kind of del delay literature. Yeah, but it is it is essentially the leaky gut science. Some scientists don't really like that term. But it's and it's not the only ⁓ so the muc so the the the epithelium has many defect defensive layers. You know, the mucous layer would be one, and then there's an epithelial layer between the epithelial cells. There are proteins called type junction that essentially stick them together. So there's there are different aspects of of of integrity, you know, that are maintained. The mucus layer being one. But if if that fails, then you become you get this, you know, what what what you often read to as a leaky gut. So I'm actually halfway okay with this term because I I do think the evidence that that more or a a kind of impaired integrity of this epithelium contributes to chronic disease is actually increasingly well established and in animal models it's clearly established. But some scientists just don't like that term very much. No, I understand. But essentially what happens is as we've discussed, these organisms they are alive and they need to be fed. And if you don't give them enough food, they start to eat the the the body. That is Correct. Yeah. Yeah. That doesn't sound ⁓ like something ⁓ that we want to happen. So thing that is very popular right now in order to feed these these microbiomes and to keep them happy is ⁓ fiber. but not all fiber is created equal, is my understanding. ⁓ it's also so part of the the is is there ⁓ at least ⁓ my understanding, is there a difference between A fibre that comes from whole foods and and foods or and and fibre supplements? So so there is, yeah, but but before we go even there, you know, so you're completely right. So fibers that these are hundreds, if not thousands, of different compounds. Yeah. Different classes. You know, some fibre are, you know, go go into solution in water, some are not. So so then some fibers are viscous, which is a really important ⁓ you know, aspect of them nutritionally. ⁓ and some of them and that interests us in the micromorpheme, some of them are fermentable and non fermentable. So cellulose, for example, is almost not fermentable by human gutter. So it's not only non-digestible, but it also our gut microbiome can't use it either. Although many other fibers are fermentable and this is an important aspect. So though there are different criteria of fiber, different types. And then there's also this broader ⁓ you know, differentiation which you just mentioned between You know, intrinsic fiber as we see it in whole foods and isolated or synthetic functional fibers that are used in supplements. You know, so also meaning you can, you know, find the fiber, you can consume fiber in in carrots, for example, but you can also extract it out of the carrots as a, you know, and that's what companies doing, or you can just synthesize the fiber and put it into supplements. Yeah, and there's an increasing understanding, I would say, over the last ten years in the nutrition world. That these fiber supplements and intrinsic fiber have very, very different effects on the host, but they also have very, very different interactions, you know, with the rest of the diet. And this I think is something that is key and is something that we actually learn the hard way in our own studies. You know, seeing, you know, do I'm involved in human trials, you know, studying fiber supplements and whole diets, and the effects, ⁓ the differences between the two are pretty drastic, you know, if you look in human clinical trials. And that whole, you know, intrinsic fiber seem to do a lot more, you know, than these fiber supplements. And the effect of fiber supplements are are much, much more targeted, much, much more specific on, you know, which again makes it then more difficult, you know, to really recommend dietary fiber, you know, in in in in general, you know, in a in a in a population. While it is very, very easy to recommend dietary fiber in whole foods. Yeah, is it is it almost like saying vitamins are good for you? Whether other like millions of different vit or millions, but there's like many different vitamins or can we compare it to something? Because when people hear fiber, they think about as one thing, as it, ⁓ it contains fiber, yes or no. But it's like w what kind of fiber does it contain? And we need multiple of them. Some of them aren't healthy, some of them are even bad for you. So W is i is it comparable to to anything like like vitamins or or some other comparison we can make ⁓ to to underscore how broad this term fiber actually is? I probably don't know enough about vitamins, but but I but I but I think ⁓ I I I'm getting what you're saying. And yes, I would say this is definitely the case. And there's a there's a there's quite a bit of discussion in the nutrition world, you know, that this umbrella term. dietary fiber isn't really that helpful, you know, and that it should probably be split into into subgroups. And actually if you if you look into definitions of dietary fiber, you know, for example, from the the the Food and Drug Administration, you know, there they are these differentiations are already made, you know, other that fiber from Whole Foods is treated different than fiber supplements, for example. But this is really just the start, you know, because then you could differentiate these fermentable versus non fermentable or viscous and non viscous. So but But that's where that's not where we are at the moment, you know, in terms of labeling. But but yes, for biologically and from in terms of what these fibers are doing, this would probably be a good thing. It would also be extremely difficult to do. Because they you know even even within the fermentable fibers, within the viscous fibers, within the soluble fibers, you know. ⁓ there's so many different types doing so many different things. And we did own work on On fermentable fibers, you know, and depending on their fiber structure, they stimulate very different bacteria in your gut and very different short chain fatty acids. So again it would be if you would want to ⁓ subgroup them, there would be many, many questions, you know, that would have to be answered to do that actually right. Yeah, I understand. But The reason I'm asking is it helps us to make better decisions, right? So currently p ⁓ brands in the supermarkets can just slap on high in fiber. And we as a consumer we're uninformed. So we're just we have to buy like a hundred products every time we go to the supermarkets where you're like, ⁓ I saw a video on Instagram where someone said that fiber is good for for my gut microbiome, it's good for my health. But this packaging says it's high in fiber. So I'll buy it. And then maybe if you look into that specific product, you'll see that the actual fiber content is not the kind of fiber you want. And there's many examples, comparisons to be made here with other supplements. ⁓ perhaps ⁓ the analogy can be made with protein as well. Not all protein is ⁓ created equal. There's different amino acids ⁓ that a protein can consist of. So I'm I'm kind of wondering how can we as a consumer understand which fibers are in a certain product and how can we know which ones are good for us and which ones are kind of a marketing stunt, if you will. It's a really well it's a really good comment and I've actually been a little bit active on social media myself in that area and put out ⁓ a a few posts, you know, around ⁓ except essentially complaining, you know, about exactly some of these fiber products because I was you know, quite unhappy about one of them and I'm not naming it now, you know, but but but you're no you are you're completely right and it gets even more problematic, you know, because not only, you know, are they sometimes not using the right fiber, but then on the other hand they can also be really, really rich in sugar and sometimes even fat. So meaning then often the nutritional composition isn't even that favorable. Yeah. So I It's it's extremely difficult to recommend something there. It's impossible, you know, to see this on the label. We're actually preparing a social media post exactly around this, you know, on what to look for in actually high fiber products. We're going not so much into different fibers because again that the customer can't get this information anyway, but we are looking then into sugar content and things. But there's one recommendation that is very, very simple, and this is try to get most of your recommended dietary fiber from whole plant foods. And if you do that, you know, you are not, you know, reliant on on the marketing tricks, you know, of of of companies. So this is a very, very safe advice at the current point. Yeah, that's always a good idea, right? To to get as much of your nutrition from Whole Foods. I remember when the whole protein hype was going on and I was walking through the supermarket and I I often buy buy these cans of tuna, which is just a hundred percent tuna with ⁓ water. And then all of a sudden they had changed the label to say high in protein. I was like, Yeah, it was high in protein, also. twenty years ago and and a hundred years ago. Like tuna has always been high in protein, but now they felt the need to put it like huge on the label as if this was some sort of new development that this is like high protein tuna. It's like, yeah, that there there is. But ⁓ like you say, probably even worse, like tuna is a healthy example and in a whole food. ⁓ if you indeed buy ⁓ the tuna, it can be whole food, it can be highly processed as well. But there are so many products in the supermarket that have that call themselves protein bars, but they're essentially just and they look healthy. They have like ⁓ a weed on on the front of the packaging and it really looks like they're buying something great. It says a high high protein bar, and you look at the label and it has more sugar than it has protein. And it's just incredible that some of these brands are allowed to market their products like that. But it of course doesn't help. I think protein is essentially a much easier discussion to have than fiber is because because there are so many different fibers that each have their own interactions with the gut microbiome and the human body, it also ⁓ opens the door for these marketers to have a more defensible position, ⁓ because it's such an umbrella term and because it is so complicated, they can argue, yeah, we we we cannot put fifty things on a different label. That would just be too difficult. So that makes it more complicated. Don't you I think I think the one thing, you know, if if one would want to to reach fiber goals with, you know, there are some really good practice cereals, you know. I don't want to demonize everything. But I think I think the easiest is probably looking at the sugar content because you want this to be at least low and you can compare packages, you know, so that gives you a possibility. And then you also want to ⁓ you know, keep your refined carbohydrates low. Also meaning the You know, the differences between total carbohydrates and sugar and fiber, you know, give you the the the refined carbohydrates. So I think if you look at fiber, refined carbohydrates and sugar, you know, I think you can get at least some idea, you know, if if this is overall ⁓ good. And then it probably also, if you want to go a step further, you know, look at the ingredients, you know, because if if if it contains some more whole ingredients, you know, like shredded wheat, for example, is really just shredded wheat, you know, if you actually look at the which is obviously then much more of a closer to a whole food, you know, than a highly refined, you know, I don't know, I d I don't really eat ⁓ yeah, but but you know, some of these whatever shoku pops, you know, or something. Yeah. So so I think this is this is probably as good as you can in in terms of the differences of fibers, is this a a fiber that actually works functionally? Is it viscous? Does it actually have certain clinical effects, you will never ever get that information. And it even me as a an expert working in this area, it would take me quite some time to actually figure that out, you know. So also because the information is simply not that easily available. Yeah. And is there ⁓ how much fiber if we're talking about fiber from Whole Foods. I know it's we can't just say fiber, but if we try to make it ⁓ understandable, if we're talking fiber from Whole Foods. How much do we actually need in a day? And does it also ⁓ differ ⁓ per person? Is it just as simple that you need X amount of fiber per kilogram of body weight, like like they often recommend proteins, or is it more complicated than that? I'm not sure it's more complicated. I think it's probably way less established. So so what what organizations do is they give you fiber recommendations. Some of them are per kilogram, but the the ones that I'm most aware of is, you know, something like 30 grams per for female and 38 grams, you know, per day for male. So they they don't go into specifics. In other organizations it's it's slightly it's slightly different. But it is definitely around the 30, 30, 5, 38 grams. I've never seen something above 40 grams. And and then it's also important to see that virtually no one in the modern world reaches these levels. As when we do our nutrition trials in Ireland, we are we have an average of nineteen grams, you know, which is probably roughly half of what is recommended. That's an average, but again, not many tells you something about, you know, how how low it is. And then I I would like to throw another thing at you that in our, you know, own work on non-industrialized type diets, we actually pushed fiber levels to forty-five grams a day. And there's other work, you know, who has worked in several. There's also a very famous big observational systematic review and meta-analysis on fiber. And they also make the argument that from all their modeling, it looks like that if you go beyond what is recommended, you get additional benefits. So I saw these as I'm not I'm not a nutritionist by training, you know, and I don't know how they come up exactly with these recommendations. But I can easily say that there is evidence, you know, that that I'm not sure you can't really say, you know, it's not that it's enough or something, because we're talking about prevention of chronic diseases. You know, it's not that you are getting ill or you might even feel better, you know, in in it to at the moment, you know, if you eat less fiber, you know, because it you know it might be less, you know, flatulence and stuff like this. But from all the the work that we see in terms of the, you know, indicators of chronic disease, it looks like if you if you if you push it toward fifty grams you probably get a substantially additional benefits. Which makes it even harder. It's not that this is easy. Yeah. Don't let don't let the marketers hear this. ⁓ but so if we c ⁓ do a s short recap, so if we don't eat enough fiber We are ⁓ a danger that our gut microbiome does not have enough food and they start eating our own bodies. ⁓ if we overshoot the amount of ⁓ recommended fiber, which is between 30 to 40 grams per day, depending on whether you're a woman or or a man, ⁓ that would be considered a healthy amount. However, on average, not many people even reach that amount. And if we were to overshoot that amount, we don't are we aren't aware of any ⁓ adverse effects, but it can even ⁓ have improved effects on our health, such as ⁓ preventing these chronic diseases that we discussed. I think that's a very fair summary. And the only adverse event I am aware of in the literature is things like bloating and flutulence, which is actually Interesting because you actually get used to it. Yeah. So you actually adapt to higher fiber levels. We see this in in our studies. Yeah. But but that's as much as I'm aware of adverse events. That's that's really interesting. And I I I wanna get into one of your your ⁓ work, your research, ⁓ from ⁓ Papua New Guinea, ⁓ also during this ⁓ during this episode, because I I came across that during my ⁓ preparation ⁓ for today and I thought that was ⁓ really interesting. Can you ⁓ maybe explain ⁓ yeah a bit of the the research, ⁓ what what you did there and and what some of the ⁓ surprising findings were? Yeah, so this is a study we we published, also the first study we published in twenty fifteen on just the microbiome in Papanu Guni. And the motivation for this, it started it's almost twenty years ago that we started this. And it was really grounded in the motivation to study an untouched microbiome. So I I think I mentioned, you know, that I see humans and microbiomes as symbioses and I think they are disrupted, you know, because of the way we are living. And that is something that fascinated me at the beginning of my my my you know academic career. And I thought, look, how where could we get a where could we look into a microbiome, you know, how how it looked in an undisturbed ⁓ setting. And I remembered some documentaries that I watched at the as a little boy about you know Pavanuguni and it was just fascinating, you know, that you have these rocket mountainous landscapes and you have tribes there that had virtually no contact to the industrialized world until nineteen thirty and ⁓ you know cannibalism, which is something that fascinated me obviously in the day. I think one third of the world languages are spoken there, you know, so because they were so isolated, these different tribes. So I just very naively thought, ⁓ yeah, this is where I want to get my as a fecal samples from, you know. So I sent an email to a research center in ⁓ in the in the highlands in Papua Nugoni basically just asked them, ⁓ look, all I need is poop samples. ⁓ and they came back to me almost within a day, you know, and said, ⁓ yeah, look, because we do a lot of infectious disease work, you know, so we do actually collect fecal samples, so we can in fact get you this. And took a long time to get, you know, ethical approval and ship them to the States and everything. But but this is what we did. And then we did, you know, we sequenced their poop, compared it to the American microbiome, and then found what many others now find, you know, when you compare industrialized and non-industrialized microbiomes. It's just they are much, much more diverse. You know, you find many, many more microbes there. You find very different microbes there. And you see also very interesting. interactions between you know the diet and the the microbial community. So this is something that's how we got started and and we got you know it fascinated us. And then the next step we thought, hmm, look, this is interesting. So if our microbiome in the in the modern world you know is less diverse and you know and you know very you know different different diet and and much, much less fermentation and everything, you know, can we actually recreate it? diet, you know, that is consumed in these non-industrialized populations. And this is something we then did when I was in Canada, where we designed this non-industrialized type diet. And this is something we we then tested in a human trial in Canadians in the day. And the the you know findings we were able to publish in a journal called Cell, which is one of the most respected journals in the world. But to can easily say that the effects of this diet blew our mind. Yeah. So this is that diet which I mentioned, you had forty-five grams of fiber on average. Yeah. Because we intentionally wanted to, you know, ⁓ mimic what what rural Papa Nagunians are eating and they eat much, much more fiber, what is even recommended. But the the kind of effects on on indicators of chronic disease, the benefits and also the effects on the microbiome in terms of the, you know, metabolism and the metabolites are produced. were pretty profound, you know, and I think this is also one of the reasons why the publication ended up in a journal like Cell. Yeah, and and what what does their diet consist of? So Pavanegunians eat a lot of actually so it's they are not vegetarian, but they eat they eat a very, very plan forward diet. And the reason is, you know, that that you know meat is is expensive and hard to get and so they also it's it's primarily preserved, you know, for festive functions. So it's many, many leafy vegetables, but also some, you know, starch-rich, ⁓ you know, root vegetables. ⁓ but it's it's it's when we when we try to recreate their diet in Canada, you know, which obviously is not a Papanagunian diet, but what we what we went for is is is primarily blant-based, you know, a lot of beans, sweet potatoes, leafy vegetable, you know, artichokes. We also looked at different fibers and wanted to enrich them. And then they they don't eat beef. Okay. And not just, you know, and and that's why we didn't include it in our trial. So they they're their their meat is primarily chicken and pork. And then if you go to coastal regions, it's fish. And they also ⁓ do not consume wheat, which is also ⁓ and they do not consume dairy. Okay. Which is also so this is on this is also a reason why we didn't include this in our trial in Canada. And we can actually not conclude. To what degree, you know, these benefits are driven by specific components of the diet, because we we haven't separated it. All we can say is that a diet like this has tremendous ⁓ effects, you know, on the classic ⁓ indicators of chronic disease like cholesterol and inflammation and blood glucose, you know, which which were all substantially reduced. Interesting. And you mentioned that they also had a more diverse ⁓ variety of ⁓ gut microbiome and and and ⁓ higher levels. Why is diversity ⁓ good because apparently we are ⁓ in the West, let's say the the US or or Canada from these comparisons, we are missing quite a few ⁓ that they do have. And and why is it is it just more more kinds is more better or they protect against more kinds of diseases or they are enhance more processes. So is is more is is more variety better there? So ⁓ we actually don't know. Because at the moment it's really just, you know, it's just an observation. So there is in in ecology there are many hypotheses around that diverse communities, you know, are more robust, you know, they're more resilient, you know, to perturbation. Because if you have more species, you know, you have these kind of insurance policies between members. But but it at you know, at the current point that isn't really sure, yeah. What we also see is that if you get very sick, as if you have inflammatory bowl disease, you know, an inflammation of your gut, or you get, you know, a liver disease. And I I was involved in some research there in Canada, the diversity in your gut drops. So a low diversity is definitely linked to acute specifically inflammatory diseases. So this is why there is the notion around, you know, that a diverse microbiome is actually healthier. But this is not an established causal relationship. But it is just an observation interesting. And for for us, you know, it I think it basically more shows, you know, that that we definitely do things to our microbiome in the industrialized world, you know, that alters it and it definitely re removes certain members You know, which perhaps, you know, then if these members have, you know, head functions, for example, by interacting with the immune system, is probably negative. But this is as far as we can argue it. Yeah. ⁓ what what happened when w ⁓ because ⁓ part of ⁓ the second part of the research was ⁓ putting people on that diet or at least ⁓ something very comparable. So what were what actually happened ⁓ to those people? What were the results of of that experiment? Yeah, so as in terms of the microbiome, they we actually saw a temporal reduction in diversity of disease, which is not what we expected. Yeah. And in initially we were very, very perplexed. Yeah. We did then more we we we worked with ecologists and we did modeling and it actually looks like what happens if if you put Canadians on this non-industrialized type diet is because you disrupt the environment so much in their gut, you know, that that the the industrialized microbiome is essentially just not adapted to it. You know, so you get this drop in diversity. And these bacteria also then come back again. You know, so as it seems like it's more of a a ditch. And then you can actually see it, it as at the at the last two time points of the diet, it wasn't actually statistically significant reduced anymore. Yeah. So so it seems like which is probably not too crazy if you think, you know, that a a person who eats a Western diet You know, for its entire life and then it moves on this forty-five grams and the entire, you know, ⁓ fermentation in the gut gets rummed up and the pH drops, you know, that these bacteria say, ⁓ wait a minute, you know, what is happening? You know, and and then when they go back to the Canadian diet, everything returns. So these bacteria are not lost, you know, they just drop under the detection limit. So so some of it might also be just ⁓ you know, an aspect of our sequencing that we are doing, yeah. But then what is probably more important is that The entire metabolism in the gut changes. Also they they are as I said, they the the the pH drops, also they they produce more acids, and this is a result of fiber fermentation. Fiberfermentation results in short chain fatty acids. They reduce the pH. Some bacteria don't like this, and this is why they go down. But we think in the microbiome field, we think that a more acidic pH is quite beneficial because it prevents certain detrimental metabolic Processes to happen. For example, we think protein fermentation and bile acid metabolism can be quite negative because it produces cancer-inducing compounds. So these metabolic pathways are reduced when the pH drops. And we can actually see this in the metabolites that we are measuring. Saccharolytic, also fiber fermentation, goes up, and metabolites that are linked to cancer. are actually also reduced, like secondary bile acids. And this is probably all linked to the pH. We see other metabolites go up in the blood. Well like a my favorite is an a metabolite called indoor three propionic acid. And this is a neuroprotective ⁓ and antioxidant. So as so as again we have no obviously we can't make any conclusion from a three week diet study in Canada, but at least the metabolite there has a lot of anti inflammatory and neuroprotective you know, effect. So it would perhaps provide an explanation for why we see, you know, very ⁓ you know, ⁓ diseases like Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's are very, very low in these non-industrialized populations. And we also see them in observational studies being, you know, linked to unhealthy diets. You know, so this is a metabolite would could which could perhaps provide an explanation. And then finally when we look at the human, we measured You know, the classic risk indicators, cholesterol, blood glucose, inflammatory markers like CRP, and we also looked at fecal cult protectin, which is which is a mark of inflammation in the gut, and they all substantially reduce. Yeah. So in three weeks on that diet, the people re ⁓ the cholesterol, for example, was reduced seventeen percent. So if you think, you know, this is something you we all know people who say, ⁓ God, I have high cholesterol. You know, and and the doctor isn't happy with this and they might even be on, you know, statins or something. So with a diet like this, you can actually reduce your cholesterol level 17% in just three weeks. You know, and we saw similar things for for blood glucose and markers of inflammation. So it's from everything that we see, it's it's it's a substantial improvement in in health. And it's it I can also say it is something that completely surprised us because We measured a lot of these markers really just because we were doing it in the lab. You know, it was a three week study. We weren't we were much more looking at the microbiome, you know, and basically just said, ⁓ let's throw them in, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. See what happens. And I still remember when my PhD student in the day came into the lab and showed me the day, I said, What the heck is happening? you know. This is just, you know, and then and then another thing that was really surprising is individuals also lost weight. That was really surprising because it was a a strictly controlled nutritional study. So we gave them exactly the calories that they needed. But it seems like, you know, on a whole or a blant rich, plant forward diet where you eat primarily beans and artichokes, you know, and and leafy vegetables and carrots, you just don't extract as much energy out of this. And this is probably again driven by fiber and specific by intrinsic fiber, you know, which is organized in in cell walls. You know, surrounding, you know, other nutrients. And I think this is something that reduced the calorie or the the actual calorie intake, despite the fact that they got the same calories, and that then led to a significant weight loss. And again, it was a very surprising finding because the study was designed specifically to actually avoid this. We'll go back to the conversation in just a second, but first I have an important announcement to make. If you've made it this far, I'm going to assume that you're enjoying the show. If you want to support the show, you can do so by leaving a like or a comment if you're watching on YouTube, or by rating the episode if you're listening on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. However, the single biggest thing you can do to support the show is by sharing it with someone you think might enjoy this episode. This could be a friend, it could be a family member, it could be a colleague. It doesn't really matter. If everyone who's currently listening to this episode would share it with just one person, the show would blow up in no time. Which also means that I could go full time. That means more episodes, it means better episodes, and it also means a happy host. So Please consider sharing the episode. It really helps me a lot. And I thank you. Now let's get back to talking. That's very interesting and crazy that so much can happen just within ⁓ three weeks. ⁓ you mentioned about the ⁓ gut microbiome specifically that ⁓ that actually the variety went down a little bit, but as soon as they got back under their regular Canadian diets, that it was restored ⁓ pretty pretty fast. So we don't know currently if you stick to this diet long enough that even as a Canadian, for example, or someone who has a Western diet, ⁓ that it will eventually go to the Papua New Guinea ⁓ levels on its own. Let's say if you stick to the diet for six months, perhaps. We have no idea at the moment, yeah. But there's also a good likelihood that it might not, you know, because diet is You know, is only one aspect why they probably have a higher diversity. You know, they there's also so we actually in our study we found a we found evidence, you know, that there's a lot more microbial sharing, you know, in a Papanagunian village, you know, because they, you know, don't have ⁓ you know, ⁓ clean drinking water, you know, they they often drink out of rivers and stuff. So there's probably and this is you know, I don't wanna ha ⁓ romanticize any of this, you know. This is obviously linked to infectious diseases and everything, you know. So but But it's not only diet, yeah. So I so so but but I d so we simply do not know. We haven't really tested non industrialized type diets, you know, for very long time in in western populations. And and but it it it's ⁓ it's a hypothesis that that at at some stage the diversity actually goes up because you definitely provide more substrates for microbes. But but that again is a hypothesis at the moment. Yeah. Finally, I know the the the main topic of our discussion is around fiber, but I was also curious while we are on the topic of of microbes, microbes and gut microbiome, ⁓ is these yogurts and yogurt drinks, right? Because in the supermarket, ⁓ a lot of these ⁓ yogurt drinks they are supposed to contain ⁓ probiotics, ⁓ which essentially supplements So f let's say fiber is the food for the gut microbiome. But some of these drinks or or yogurts, they actually like supplement the microbes themselves. Is is that something that we should be doing? Does that work? ⁓ what what what does the science say there? So the probiotics is ⁓ obviously it's going on for a very long time. You know, we are we're doing probiotics for think ⁓ a bit more than a hundred years now. Yeah. So ⁓ so these are the idea is really just that you give live microbes to improve health. You know, that's that's pretty much the definition. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of research being done in this area. And ⁓ I think it's important to differentiate what do these probiotic products do to the microbiome. And the results there are pretty clear that it does it does very little. You know, also these, you know, these are mainly lactic acid bacteria that are used, you know, for Yokurch and You biffidobacteria, but if you if you if you consume especially the the products off the shelf in the supermarket, they don't, you know, alter your microbiome. You know, you might you you will detect the bacteria in the fecal sample, but once you stop the yogurt, you know, they they just wash out. Yeah. Then there is some ⁓ interesting research around some probiotic strains that can actually persist. But most of them are not in the products. And now there's this idea of next generation probiotics, you know, where you use real gut organisms, you know, and you put them into probiotics, you know. And this is a research that's that's ongoing, you know, and some of them are also marketed more as drugs, you know, so meaning so they are very different than the probiotics that you mentioned in yogurt drinks and yogurts, for example. Yeah. And then there's also something you can you have to consider that you might not be able to have to modulate your microbiome, because you're consuming live microbes. And they can still produce metabolites or they can interact with your immune system and do something good. That being said, you know, the the the research is is is is a bit ⁓ let's say inconsistent often, you know. And ⁓ and there's some really, really good studies around probiotics, but they for me they are more in specific conditions, you know. As for example, there's some good evidence that you can shorten antibiotic induced diarrhea, for example, with probiotics, there's some good work In IBS, there's some good work on probiotics in preterm infants, although that's also controversial. But there's there are certain specific targets. Yeah. My take, I've I've worked in this field for 30 years now. My take is all I have no problem in recommending a healthy diet, you know, also, you know, as a consumed dietary fiber. I do not recommend people to you know, just consume probiotics as, you know, as as part of a of a lifestyle. I also I also don't think they're detrimental, you know, but I I just don't think that this is a thing they should they should, you know, super focus on, you know, because the evidence is just not there, you know, in for example, in the prevention of of chronic diseases, for example, while when it comes to healthy blunt forward eating, the evidence I would say is overwhelming. Yeah. That being said, you know, these probiotics can do very specific things, like if you have IBS ⁓ there is some some some good data out there that you know a specific probiotic product is is perhaps able to help you, you know. So so that's my my my you know approach towards probiotics at the current point. Yeah very interesting. But the reason I'm asking is we know that a a huge variety of diverse gut microbiome is healthy. ⁓ we we've discussed all the all the reasons why we we need them. So In principle, we could just analyze every single one of them and analyze what a healthy ratio between all these different gut microbiomes look like and view it as sort of an aquarium where we have we need ⁓ three of those, ⁓ four of these, ⁓ two of these, only one of these because those are and and there's this different mixture of of of all the different types we need. And then you could do an analysis perhaps. You can you can go to a doctor and maybe maybe ⁓ see what's in your system at the moment, and then perhaps based on that analysis have some sort of supplement where you just take a pill with your exact dose and then the the gut microbiome ⁓ go into your aquarium. what is is that something that is realistic or is that just impossible? It's not how the biology works. Man, that is so so so first is man this is to some degree what the research is doing at the moment. You know, so as of first we have big studies, you know, to look at what is actually a healthy microbiome. We are not there yet, and there is some controversy around this, and it's also difficult because it's context dependent. But people are definitely looking at what you've just said, you know. So they are trying to figure out what is the the perfect composition. But then, even if we would know that, it's Unfortunately, not that easy to just take a pill and then try to colonize. And the reason for this is because we have all our individual microbiomes. And this is probably you know again, it's deeply ecological, has something to do with the history of our own life, you know, how our community assembles. But at the end, in in adult life, we are all ending up with our own microbiome. And it's very, very difficult to modulate that microbiome. Be it beneficial or be it detrimental. So I think that the future there would be To actually, you know, intervene very early in life and try to assembly healthy microbiomes. We are not there yet. We simply don't know how to do this at the moment. But it's definitely what you what you what you what you mentioned is definitely something that's ongoing. Yeah. And then the idea to sequence microbiome, to personalize then treatments and diets and probiotics, that's also ongoing. But then again, here this is is pretty much in its infancy. And it's again complicated by the fact that we don't exactly know what a healthy microbiome is yet. And then also the the the the challenges in modulating microbiomes. But it's you what you pointed out is when I I would think that in in 20, 30 years, you know, I was actually hoping that we would we would have some as my my my prediction for the future is always, you know, that that at some stage we probably give bacteria early in life almost like we give vaccines now, you know, because Once we know, you know, which is the configuration that we want to have early in life and specifically because this is disrupted, you know, in the modern world through antibiotics, C sections, you know, the the the the clean life and everything. So I think at some stage we will give, you know, probiotic pills almost like vaccines, you know, to to give the microbiome the right trajectory and the immune system the right ⁓ you know, you know, stimulants, you know, to to actually but but Again, tw a guess would be twenty to thirty years from now, you know, because for this, you need to know which microbes, you know, you need to think about safety, you know, because you are starting modulating an an immune system also, and you have to think about very, very long-term consequences, you know. So so so it's it's but it's definitely something scientists are looking at. And in animal models, you know, we do know that putting the right bacteria early on, you know, does ⁓ stimulate the immune system in the right way. It's just that With with humans we are not there yet. Yeah. Very interesting. That's cool. curious to to hear where that ⁓ goes. I I know you're you're not a nutritionist in the sense that you advise people on on what to to eat generally. however, is there something that people can do in order to determine whether they are getting enough fiber? ⁓ and do some sort of self-analysis? To see where they are at and if they need to take more fiber, which most people apparently should, ⁓ what they can eat and do to ⁓ increase their fiber intake. I ⁓ you know, I I do I do recommend in terms of a ⁓ so there's ⁓ you know, this American writer Michael Pallin, you know, who wrote the Omnivore Dilemma and and in defense of food. And he puts forward dietary advice in seven words. He says, you know, if if he would only have seven words to describe how people should eat, it's eat food, not too much, mostly plants. And I I can't see much fault with that advice. You know, so when he says eat food, he means real food, you know, also food, you know, that that that your grandparents would have recognized. And this is again the idea to eat whole foods, you know, and and you know and and and focus on, you know, Yeah. Go g get away essentially from processed foods, like you said, that are not necessarily bad, but it's very hard to to adjust them. Then eat not too much is is, you know, you know, if we overeat on any food we gain weight. It's something I struggle with tremendously. I have no portion control. ⁓ and then ⁓ mostly blands, you know, because that is the the the equipment, you know. bulk up on on on plants and even if you wanna eat, it's not so much important if you're a vegetarian, a vegan or something. You can eat egg, you can eat ⁓ meat, fish, you know, it's very good, you know, but but it but it's still important, you know, that that the the you know that the the large amount of your food, you know, is actually is is plant based. And this is what I'm trying to do. And this is also essentially what our diet was that that we, you know, tested in these Canadians. I also you You asked for advice, you know. So we actually we we made all the recipes from our study freely available. ⁓ we also have eScience and recipe co ⁓ book that is also freely available. Also if ⁓ I don't know if you wanna point your listener to to these sources. Yeah. So so we we do we we call it the NEMI diet, non industrialized microbiome restore diet. It's all non profit, you know, we are on social media. So the idea is really just to get the word out and we're also not claiming that these are the only health promoting recipes, you know. So it basically just follows principles, you know, ⁓ you know, that we think are health promoting. And it's there's a lot of overlap also with other, you know, dietary patterns like the Mediterranean diet, you know, which I by no means want to discredit. You know, that the most, you know, the the the the most reputable research in in nutrition is around the Mediterranean diet. So so but Even we this information is definitely out there. And then there are probably also a few in nutrition, there are a few rules I think that are worth following. You know, so for example, I've I've heard Christopher Gardner from Stanford saying, you know, in nutrition, there are really just four rules that you should follow. And let's see if I get them together. So the first thing is actually eat ⁓ you know, whole foods, what we mentioned, bulk up on vegetables. ⁓ Reduce refined carbohydrates and avoid added sugar. So these are the four. And he said in actually in an interview, he said, you know, that even hardcore carnivores and vegans do actually generally agree on these. You know, so so I think these are I think very helpful. And again, it comes goes back a little bit to what we've discussed around fiber products, you know, because you can also judge your fiber, you know, product, as we already mentioned, you know, with the refined carbohydrates. So first you should probably not take it anyway because you should for favor a a whole food. But if you ca if you if you really wanna eat your breakfast cereal, then you know try to avo you know reduce refined carbs and and and and you know ⁓ avoid added sugar, you know, and then again it it guides you actually, you know, towards ⁓ a much, much more healthy diet. Yeah. In terms of the microbiome, I'm also I'm ⁓ it's there's very, very good evidence. That, you know, processed meats are very bad for you. Unfortunately, I like all that stuff. You know, I do eat I do like salami, but I'm almost not eating it anymore, you know, because of, you know, the the high amount of saturated fat, but also the nitrate and everything in these processed meats are also transformed by gut bacteria. Yeah. And I'm also I'm getting unf it's another unfortunate thing. You know, a lot of cheese contains a very, very high, you know, ⁓ content of saturated animal fat. And that's probably very bad for your microbiome too. So I'm I don't avoid anything 100% because I think ⁓ nutrition shouldn't be about that. You know, I think the idea is to incorporate as many healthy, you know, foods as possible. And then, you know, by but just by default, you know, you're actually eating a healthy diet. And the occasional piece of cheese and the occasional piece of salami is not going to, you know, harm you much. You know, so I think that's at least how how I would recommend people to eat. Yeah, that's that's very good good advice. And I I if I just may add to that, I I love this one sentence that captures it beautifully, I I think is eat foods that are ingredients, not that contain ingredients. ⁓ which is essentially Whole Foods. ⁓ but the that's that's a good ⁓ starting point, I think, and ⁓ very, very easy, ⁓ easy to remember. I will make sure to ⁓ to ⁓ put everything ⁓ in the in the show notes. ⁓ before we ⁓ wrap it up ⁓ today, is there anything you are currently ⁓ working on ⁓ in ⁓ that is ⁓ interest something that is coming out soon? Man, what we ⁓ actually so here in Cork, I moved to Ireland six years ago. Yeah. What I did in in Cork is we we were actually looking and making processed foods healthier. So it's it's it's ⁓ because, you know, as much as our NEME diet, you know, works really well, we are aware we are living in the modern world. You know, we are aware that yeah, you know, I don't know, three, five, ten, I don't know how many percent of the population we can convince to eat like this, but that we we we thought there is still a you know, a scope, you know, to try and make actually food staples, you know, also ⁓ healthier. So we we we've just completed two human trials, you know, where we look at scones and pasta and ⁓ bread, you know, and and enriched it substantial fiber. So we we actually pushed fiber levels to seventy grams a day. ⁓ you know, and controlled again, controlled the diet completely. And we're really just starting with this, but it looks like you can, you know, do good things, you know, with these processed foods too, you know, in at least certain aspects of metabolic health, but also the microbiome. So this is something I'm getting increasingly interested in. Yeah. Still recommending whole foods. If you can. Yeah. So yeah, that's good. And well I'll I'll I'll be on the the lookout ⁓ for it. ⁓ thank you so much for for coming on the show, ⁓ Jens. This was incredibly helpful, super interesting. I have learned a ton, so I assume ⁓ more ⁓ people will. Where can people go? ⁓ keep up with their work, perhaps find some of the the the diets you've you mentioned before. What what are some places people can ⁓ learn more about your work and ⁓ keep I mean if if if people look for the Nimi diet, it's also spelled N I ⁓ E. Yeah. ⁓ so then you so you have to be really we have to be careful. So on ⁓ so we have our free Cookbook is also on Amazon just for the price of printing, but there are also 20 other NIME books, and none of them is from us. They are all AI generated. I'll put it in the show notes. The goal. Yeah, this is this is the modern world when we published our cell paper. I'm not kidding you. Within 24 hours, there was a NIME book on Amazon. Correct. And I don't even know how they did this, you know, but because it was basic or not probably not twenty-four hours, but a few days later. And it it must be that they just used the publication, you know, and the news coverage of the publication. And you know, an AI turns this into a book, you know, within a few hours. You know, so so so I thought th th that's not us, you know. So But I I I I can I can provide you with, you know, the actual internet page and the Instagram page and again the The place where where people can can download the free ⁓ science and recipe book. Yeah. So and then in the in this book we also describe, you know, the the the principles. But it's also really important to what w I don't think what we do is controversial at all. You know, we are actually we are pretty much in line with dietary recommendations, you know, with the Mediterranean diet. I w I think the only thing that what we do is we probably Go a little bit beyond, you know, what is recommended. Well knowing that this makes it even harder. You know, but from our research and obviously from looking into non industrialised populations, you know, that's our motivation, you know. So but but that's pretty much, you know, everything. I so there I'm I'm not trying to convince people to do something absolutely crazy, what nutritionists wouldn't agree with. You know. So and again, as I said, you know, the it follows pretty much the mic ⁓ the the the Michael Pallant, you know, sentence, you know. So so it's I think I think it's pretty much the consensus in the nutrition world now, just that it probably goes a little bit more, you know, it's it's probably a tiny bit more restrictive, specifically in relation to cheese, for example, which which I find hard myself to stick to, but at least I try. Yeah. No, it's ⁓ but I let's be real. I mean ⁓ nutrition and food is probably the most debated ⁓ topic ⁓ on on the planet. Everyone thinks ⁓ they know best. So it's it's very nice to have a conversation with ⁓ a scientist who actually ⁓ did design. So I will make sure to put it in the show notes. ⁓ thank you so much ⁓ for today Jens like I said this was a lot of fun and it was very helpful. So ⁓ yeah let's ⁓ let's stay in touch and ⁓ yeah if there's more fiber news, more more studies on the on the processed ⁓ healthier processed let's stay in touch because ⁓ this was ⁓ a lot of fun. Thanks, Julius, appreciate it. Thanks for having me.