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The Saboteurs That Are Killing Your Relationships w/ Shirzad Chamine · The Psychology of Relationships

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[SPEAKER_04]: I'm Julie Craftscheck, and I'm UASU.
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[SPEAKER_04]: This is the Psychology of Relationships.
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[SPEAKER_04]: What if the biggest obstacles in our relationships aren't always outside forces, for rather, inside our own heads?
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[SPEAKER_04]: Even in the most loving, long-term partnerships, our brains can sabotage the connection we want most, and it often happens before we even realize it.
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[SPEAKER_04]: In this episode, we're joined by Shorzad Shameen, author, coach, and founder of Positive Intelligence.
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[SPEAKER_04]: to explore the psychology behind why even strong relationships hit repeated roadblocks.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Drawing on groundbreaking research, he exposes the 10 well disguised mental saboteurs.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Internal patterns like the judge, controller, victim, voider, and pleaser that quietly undermine our potential and our closest relationships.
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[SPEAKER_04]: These patterns don't just affect how we think, they shape how we feel, react, and relate to our partners, often creating conflict or emotional distance without any one intending it.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Shazad explains why the very traits that felt magnetic at first are partners' intensity independence or spontaneity.
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[SPEAKER_04]: can later trigger irritation or conflict.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And that's because our brains are wired to detect threats avoid discomfort and try to maintain control.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Mechanisms that ones help to survive, but now sometimes push us away from intimacy.
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[SPEAKER_04]: When partners understand the psychology behind their own self-sabotage, they can move from frustration to connection, from conflict to collaboration, and from reactive cycles to lasting intimacy.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Shazad shows how positive intelligence or PQ, the ability to recognize and intercept self-sabotaging thoughts, can transform how we respond, communicate, and connect.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Strengthening PQ helps couples move from reactive patterns to mindful, intentional interactions, which are essential for a long-term partnership.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Remember to subscribe to the Psychology of Relationships on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and leave a rating and review of this episode help you see your relationship in a new way.
2:26
[SPEAKER_04]: This is the psychology of relationships, and you're listening to an
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[SPEAKER_04]: We've heard of IQ, we've heard of EQ, and now there's PQ, which is positive intelligence and this positive intelligence quotient.
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[SPEAKER_04]: You know, we got Shazad here and you've talked about how we go the gym to exercise our muscles.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So there's also a way for us to exercise our mental strength.
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[SPEAKER_04]: High Shazad.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, you're here.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Great.
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[SPEAKER_05]: So glad to have you here.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, as somewhat that has not taken your course yet, and I've heard so much about it.
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[SPEAKER_05]: What is positive intelligence in your own words?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, positive intelligence is a measure of your mastery over your own mind.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If you're a fan of Star Wars, what we talk about is that inside your mind there's a war raging between your inner Jedi and inner Dark Waders at all times, your inner Jedi is the positive one in you who serves you and serves your interests and helps with your relationships and all those good stuff.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and your inner dart waiters, which we call your saboteurs, are the ones that are constantly sabotaging you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So we believe inside the reminder, our voices that are constantly sabotaging you, and there's a voice that's your true self that is serving you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The balance of power within those two things is what we help change, we help.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Strengthen your inner gel eye, we can your inner dart waiters, and as a result you end up transforming your relationships, transforming how you feel, you feel happier and less stressed and also perform a lot better in whatever you do.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so the measure of how strong your attack is that is what we call that your positive intelligence level.
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[SPEAKER_05]: That is so fascinating.
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[SPEAKER_05]: It's so important for dating.
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[SPEAKER_05]: We hear this all the time that's not as we get in our own ways and it's hard to decipher what our areas of our mind we should be paying attention to versus the areas that are sabotaging us.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, as a matter of fact, I can look at you and the eye and everybody else is listening to us and say you are actively every single day sabotaging the effectiveness of the relationships.
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[SPEAKER_00]: your own wellness and your own performance, your in the constant self-sabotage mode.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The question is not if you're doing it, the question is how strongly are you doing it and in what way are you doing it?
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[SPEAKER_00]: There are 10 ways we self-sabotage, we call those the saboteurs, every single one of us has a few of those.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I can absolutely guarantee that you're busy self-sabotage, checking without knowing.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And I want to get to the saboteurs, but before we do that, why is it that we're constantly sabotaging our lives and our relationships?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is a part of evolutionary development of our brain.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Let's use one example, which is the judge saboteur.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The judge is the one saboteur that's universal.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The judge saboteur constantly finds what's wrong, not what's right.
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[SPEAKER_00]: everything else, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's the one that makes you up at three in the morning and says, you idiot, what's wrong with you?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Why didn't you make that stupid?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And stay again.
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[SPEAKER_00]: When are you ever going to learn?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Or the one who says, you know, you're going to screw up tomorrow.
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[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think you are?
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's also the one in a relationship that's constantly finding what is wrong.
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[SPEAKER_00]: rather than what is right with the other person.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's devastating to relationship when the other party every time you open their mouth, criticize, what else you've found wrong with them, rather than appreciation of what's right with them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So the question is why do we all have the judge servitor?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the answer is good.
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[SPEAKER_00]: the millions of years of evolution that predispositioned to look at the negative and amplified the negative and the subsystems with the negative was actually hopeful for the survival of our ancestors.
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[SPEAKER_00]: For our distant ancestors, if the three started shaking and you weren't quite sure what animal is going to emerge from behind the tree if you were in a judgmental then always assume the worst.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so that bet you there's going to be a tiger coming up with it to hit me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: that negative predisposition was helpful for your survival.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If you were very positive and you said, you know, I have a good feeling today, I think it's a sunny day, I mean, I'm very optimistic, I think it's a call of overcoming to give me a hug.
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[SPEAKER_00]: How long do you think you're alive?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly, you'd be dead.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So, predisposition to the negative was very helpful for our survival, not the other nine saboteurs also are helpful for the survival of us as kids, as kids we are very vulnerable, physically and emotionally.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So, saboteurs are your initial protectors in this crazy, scary thing called life.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We need them as kids, but by the time you're adults, they become habits of our minds, so without knowing it, we keep going back to the old thing we used to do to say sure physically and emotionally.
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[SPEAKER_04]: That negativity can really be detrimental for a lot of our relationships because we cause sabotage really great relationships by doing that, but you personally,
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[SPEAKER_04]: experience a very tumultuous upbringing involving both physical and emotional abuse and in your in your program, you talk about how that really affected your adult life.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So can you give us a little bit background about your upbringing and then how this is inspired you to come up with positive intelligence.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was a very sensitive kid growing up in really harsh circumstances, four simple things, my parents living in poverty in a tiny apartment, but the worst thing was my father was a pretty terrifying guy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I was really scared of him.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't getting much love or attention from either of my parents.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And basically, early on, the survival mechanism of the judge came in, I needed to explain why is it that I'm not getting much love or attention from my parents.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I could not admit the reality to myself, which is, hey, I just have very imperfect parents.
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[SPEAKER_00]: absolutely terrifying for a child to realize that his parents are in perfect wide because my life dependent was in the hands of my parents.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So we cannot come up with the scenario that says yeah, the truth is your parents are pretty broken people.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I needed to tell a story that had me keep my parents perfect because that would actually help me survive.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so the story was,
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[SPEAKER_00]: Your parents are actually perfect, and the reason they're not giving you much love or attention is because shares that you are on board of any love or attention.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that was the beginning of my self judge.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It appears like a brutal thing to do to yourself, but actually, the allowed me to say, okay, my parents are perfect things I've ever reasoned by that on love.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And she's like, you're going to survive because your parents are really pretty powerful perfect things.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Now, once I started doing that, I also needed to start finding what was wrong with other people.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because it would have been terrifying for me to think that I am the only young person and broken.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I also started finding what's wrong with every single person except for my parents.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Every person who came in front of me, I would instantly find what's wrong with them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You're too ugly, you're too tall, you're too short, you're too fat, you're too skinny, you're too this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I needed to find the throne which you because I needed also the judge you and drag you down.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So, again, that for my survival, I said, I'm gonna survive because I'm not the only one who's with anybody else's too.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So, that was the formation of a very powerful judge, judge of self and judge of others.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I had to
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[SPEAKER_00]: completely no idea I was doing it until 25 years later in Stanford Business School, I was an MBA student.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We were sitting in a circle and the work of this particular class was we had to tell the truth to each other about how we were feeling.
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[SPEAKER_00]: At some point, every single class may turn to me and say,
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[SPEAKER_00]: who are doubly judgmental.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It drives us nuts because it's standard anymore.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Wild and when the fifth person said the same thing, all of a sudden, I woke up to, oh my god, they are right.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I judge everything instantly.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's such an automatic mechanism on my mind.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It was a terrifying and life-changing moment in my life because all of a sudden I saw this judge character in my head, filtering things.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I realize I'm not seeing reality.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not responding to reality.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just reacting through the filter of this judge.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And this judge saboteur just got revealed to me when I was 27 years old.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's not for business for the change my life.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I'm like nodding my head because a lot of us can relate to that is that it does tie back to childhood.
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[SPEAKER_05]: We've heard that so many times and we don't know how to put those words into our mouths of what's actually the psychology behind this.
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[SPEAKER_05]: So I'm dying to know, I guess, is it a need that it's from your childhood that you have these saboteurs or other ways that you can identify with different ones?
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[SPEAKER_00]: temporary teeth, and then they got permanent teeth.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There are evolutionary stages of mental development, and the problem of emotional development.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So every child develops saboteurs, regardless of what your parents are like and all that stuff.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This is not the, you've got screwed as a child kind of a thing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And an example is,
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[SPEAKER_00]: I have two beautiful kids that I adore.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And from day one, they were night and day different from each other.
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[SPEAKER_00]: My son was a very introverted gentle, life is a ball of cherries kind of a guy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that beautiful tendency that he had taken too far became his saboteur, which is the avoider saboteur.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So one way to think about what our saboteurs are,
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[SPEAKER_00]: is it's your natural greatest strength being taken too far and becoming your greatest weakness.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So my son having this ease about him, or everything wanted to be pleasant, and life is about the cherries, and all those wonderful qualities that he had, which is his greatest strength, taken too far, it becomes that voyager savertor, who doesn't want to deal with the challenger or conflict, and just wants to take a govtron and not come from it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Now my daughter was born from day one,
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[SPEAKER_00]: exchanging extrovert very powerful being hard charging goal oriented all those wonderful things which is awesome strength for her to have taken too far it becomes the controller saboteur bless her hard she was pretty supposed to develop more the controller so the question is not whether you develop saboteur's questions how strong they are
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[SPEAKER_00]: and are you aware of them so that you can intercept them when you're an adult?
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[SPEAKER_00]: My daughter now has an absolute complete awareness of her controller's avatar and knows when to use her power to be an awesome leader and when to, you know, take it easy, go to empathy, go to curiosity, other powers so that she is inclusively the right
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the hand of, you know, his sage, the anthropologist, after that serves him, and when it's been taken too far and becomes the avoiders.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So they both have deep understanding of these.
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[SPEAKER_04]: This is the most exciting part when I got to this portion of your program.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I kept thinking, well, if we can label the saboteurs, then we know when they're showing up in our relationships, and that's step number one is labeling them.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So I think we should get into who these saboteurs are, how they're showing up in our relationships, so that we can recognize and label it.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And you've already touched upon the judge, which is like the overarching saboteur.
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[SPEAKER_04]: How does the judge show up in relationships?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Let me tell a story of how relationships happen and one of the judge comes in there and see a question.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So first of all, in relationships often what happens is people get drawn to the others who have a complimentary saboteau, not the same saboteau.
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[SPEAKER_00]: As an example, typically a strong controller doesn't get together with another strong controller, why?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because somebody
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[SPEAKER_05]: So, if people can't control the situation, right now.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So, it's a hard charging controller tends to get drawn to somebody with soft or less aggressive type of sabotage, for example, avoid their or pleaser.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I already have, I have had fun conversations with my daughter that she has the strong
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[SPEAKER_00]: We'll likely be drawn to a guy who is more gentle type.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Sabotors are fueled by stress.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So anytime you feel stressed, our go-to way of dealing with things is true, our sabotors.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So let's imagine let's say Mary meets Mark.
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[SPEAKER_00]: When many of its work in the early days, what's happening, we see the sage in the other person, the original essence beauty of the other person.
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[SPEAKER_00]: While we call your saboteur, your false self, your negatives of the sage is your true self, your inner Jedi.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Initially, in a dating scenario, we see what's beautiful in the other, and by seeing
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's sage, what's beautiful about them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We actually draw that up more from them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So they show up more and more as they're beautiful.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Essence, amazing being that they are.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's contagious.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So the sage in one person is contagious.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It brings out the sage in the other person.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So Mary's in the sage in Mark is bringing out more of Mark's sage essence beauty.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's not bringing out more of that in Mary.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a beautiful positive reinforcement through contagion effect.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and what's there not to love the staging every human being is incredibly beautiful.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So love is occurring and all the good stuff is happening and then they get together and six months later or nine months later they're living together and Mark is walking by the bathroom and all of a sudden realizes that Mary is as she was brushing her teeth.
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[SPEAKER_00]: she's actually squeezing the toothpaste from the little nap from the end, but from the middle Oh my god, is this so crazy?
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[SPEAKER_00]: What are you doing?
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[SPEAKER_05]: This is literally what's happening by relationship.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, for you, were you and my partner last night?
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[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, I trust me to have anything all over the world right now, so his judge comes out and judges, Mary's, watch Mary's doing, and points out, you know, hey, and with the judges, it's like, Mary, what are you doing in those?
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[SPEAKER_00]: They're not supposed to listen, they're middle and all that stuff.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Now let's say Mark has the controller saboteur and he is now with Mary who has an avoided saboteur.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So now saboteurs are contagious when Mark came out with his judge and controller trying to control what Mary is doing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: What's that kind of trigger in Mary is her saboteur which is avoided, which means she doesn't mind deal with this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: She's going to instead of actually discussing this and coming to her resolution, she just tries to
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that a voyeur's tendency that shows up really now drives him up crazy like what is this?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Who did I get stuff with over here?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Why are you so so invasive?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So the judge and control gets even stronger and now let and that's totally going to bring up Mary's judge now and she she's saying I didn't know I got such a rigid and totally judging person.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Before you know it, their beautiful sage bringing out the sage, meeting up best in you, has shifted to saboteurs bringing out the saboteurs, because, through mirror neurons, what we know is that one person being in saboteur mode, triggers the saboteurs in the other.
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[SPEAKER_00]: to a contagion effect, and so we have gone from bringing up the best in each other to bringing out the worst in each other, which is why in our most intimate relationships, we are the cruelest.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We are the ugliest in terms of allowing our sabotors to come up and play free.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So we do the most damage actually to the people who love the most, because the sabotors are getting into a contentious stance with each other.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Well, can you just say that again?
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[SPEAKER_04]: We do the most damage to the people we love the most?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we are the coolest, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we behave better at work.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If my boss came to me with a saboteur, I would do my pick yours.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I would behave because there are consequences.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes,
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[SPEAKER_00]: when we don't quite have the same consequences, we let our saboteurs run free, and the other thing that happens is think about the tango of the saboteurs.
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[SPEAKER_00]: My, in this particular example, Mark's judge and controller reliably bring out Mary's
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[SPEAKER_00]: This becomes a tango that reinforces itself and every time it happens, it becomes more of a habit.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that in a few months or a few years, Mark says three words and before finishing the sentence, Mary has started her own her whole paragraph because it's just based on muscle memory.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We are no longer even listening to what the other is saying, they're going right into the dance of the saboteurs.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the saboteurs get charged up by this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So every time Mark's judge does this and gets the behavior from Mary, doesn't avoid her behavior.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Mark's judge becomes more reinforced like something is wrong with Mary.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The controller becomes more certain.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, Mary really needs some controlling here because without the control, she's actually gonna avoid everything and nothing good is gonna happen.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So the saboteurs prove themselves right every time they come in
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[SPEAKER_00]: create a behavior from the other's person that behavior they get from the other person reinforces what they have made up about the other person.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So they keep generating the behavior they actually believe is wrong with the other person and then then they say I was right to begin with, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a very self-reinforcing thing once we get into these dance, dance of the saboteurs, it's very challenging to step out of it and realize what you're doing.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Well, I'm so glad that we are learning about this today because this feels like the death of relationships to me.
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[SPEAKER_05]: And I see this really spiraling out of control if you don't get ahead of it.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Can you walk us through these nine saboteurs and how they show up a bit in love?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let's actually get into a couple of things one.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the mystery of what are the saboteurs?
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[SPEAKER_00]: People have a better sense of what they are.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Let me give you all the names for them.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let's do the name.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So the judge is a saboteur, which is the only saboteur everybody has.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Then there are nine other saboteurs.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And they have an assessment that helps you figure out which of those saboteurs you have.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Usually people have a few of those.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Their names alphabetically are at the avoider, the controller, hyper-achiever,
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[SPEAKER_00]: hyper-rational, hyper-vigilant, laser, restless, stickler, and victim.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the cast, the character, the heart and the hope.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm pretty sure you just recognize yourself and your significant other.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, just by the names alone.
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[SPEAKER_05]: So we both took the quiz.
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[SPEAKER_05]: You, which ones did you get that you were the highest in?
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[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, restless, restless, interesting.
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[SPEAKER_05]: I could see that with you for sure.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Just in the day of it.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And you got, which one did you get again?
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[SPEAKER_05]: Hyper Achiever was my number one
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[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, hyperachiever was my number two.
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[SPEAKER_05]: So can we go into then like how they show up while dating?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I can go alphabetically.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The first is a voider, a voider, there's an element of a voider that's avoiding unpleasant tasks and deadlines and things like that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So the voider could be a lot into procrastination last minute, stuff which totally drives the controller types and some of the other types up the wall.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So there's
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[SPEAKER_00]: avoidance of task and stuff and procrastination, but also just as importantly avoidance of conflict.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So instead of dealing with conflict, telling the other people what you're really dealing confronting things for all their new and fresh, you let it fester fester fester fester fester until it goes up in your face.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the avoidance impact on the relationship, not really being upfront with things that are not working for you and dealing with them real time.
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[SPEAKER_04]: a voider, I think that's habit word for me personally shows up very early in relationships because I'm trying to be on my best behavior and trying to avoid the red flags that I'm seeing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And one metaphor that this kind of connects it to me with is think about a relationship, let's say, initially it's like a perfect rose garden, and in this perfect rose garden, no matter how perfect it is, reads, will start to grow.
23:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And what we saw earlier, and it's like something that the person said or did that rubbed you the wrong way, but it's kind of not huge yet, it's kind of small initially.
23:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, if you don't deal with it, if you don't discuss it, if you don't bring light to it
23:28
[SPEAKER_00]: you're not going to pull the weed, what happens is that little weed will actually get grow because you start making assumptions about it, you're going to something bigger and bigger and bigger, and if you're keep avoiding dealing with the weed, then before you know it, there are more weeds in the garden than roses.
23:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Controller basically tries to dominate the way the other person does things that is a certain about what the right way is versus the wrong way.
23:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And typically the other person shapes against that and says, I feel controlled and it has quite an impact where
24:01
[SPEAKER_00]: let people push back against it.
24:03
[SPEAKER_05]: A lot of times we see relationships or budding relationships fall apart because someone's not playing by your rulebook.
24:10
[SPEAKER_05]: So I could see this one being real dangerous in getting in people's way.
24:14
[SPEAKER_00]: By the way, notice that since we talked about controller and avoiders as complimentary saboteurs, notice what's really happening.
24:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I used the example of actually my son having a strong
24:25
[SPEAKER_00]: and in situers the avoiders my daughter to a control or what I suggest is that they were born with those predispositions, my sounding, easygoing, very creative adaptable in the flow, my daughter being hard-charging,
24:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Harder the reason unconsciously be or drawn to the other person is not their saboteur, but there's strength that the saboteurs over using.
24:53
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's why I was saying to my daughter, you're hard charging and goal oriented and directive and all that stuff.
24:59
[SPEAKER_00]: chances are you're going to find it very attractive when a man has a complementary strength yours that can be easy going, be in the flow, be in the moment, be in touch with the joy of life and all that stuff.
25:13
[SPEAKER_00]: That's awesome competition.
25:14
[SPEAKER_00]: You're probably going to be drawn to each other because of that compliment very nice.
25:18
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why you would feel the love then the problem is that while you're attracted to that opposite style,
25:24
[SPEAKER_00]: at some point you start judging that up and say I'm kind of drawn to this but but done it, why aren't you also more like me?
25:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Why aren't you more like me?
25:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Why aren't you more like it?
25:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So we want to have our cake and eat it too.
25:36
[SPEAKER_00]: We are drawn to the complementary nature, but at some point you want them to be just like us and have all of those trends too.
25:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And so a real big thing is for us to realize you can't have your cake and eat it too.
25:48
[SPEAKER_00]: There is this person's brain is wired differently.
25:51
[SPEAKER_00]: They can't bring all those trends.
25:52
[SPEAKER_00]: and at the same time bring all of your strengths, that's two different human beings, so let's appreciate the difference, and not judge the difference, and that's what typically you go to in the relationship.
26:02
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, so what's after controller?
26:04
[SPEAKER_05]: What's the answer?
26:05
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, so...
26:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So hyperachever, which you'll mention, you have two, so the challenge with the hyperachever, which a lot of us have, whether or not this are top saboteurs, is a conditional self-love and self-acceptance, which says, I am really not worthy until and unless I achieve and achieve some more.
26:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And the problem is that the essence of it is we are attaching ourselves worth with achievement rather than saying unconditional love says I am this beautiful being regardless of whether I achieve or not and one of the things that I want that my kids to grow up with is no that they were born as a beautiful essence as unique as their fingerprint and that beautiful being is worthy of all the love in the world.
26:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And so one of the ways that I wanted to make sure that my son and daughter didn't develop the hyperachiever is that my son is into tickling game as she loved tickling.
27:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would start tickling him and I would start tickling him and I'd say, and I taught him to say it all the right answers, I would say tickling him and say, Kian, tell me, why do I love you so much?
27:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And he would say, I don't know that, why do you love me so much?
27:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And I would say, well, is it because you're so smart and get good grades?
27:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And he had learned to say, and he would say, no, that it's not because I'm smiling at good grades.
27:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And of tickling some more, is it because you're so great in sports and soccer and all that?
27:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And you say, no, that is not because of that.
27:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Tickling some more, is it because you're so handsome?
27:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And my son is really handsome, goes after my wife.
27:40
[SPEAKER_00]: But for them, you say, no, that is not because of that, is it that your kind and interest, no, that is not because of it, so at some point I would pretend great frustration and I would say, so why is it, Keanu, why do I love you so much?
27:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And he had learned to say, and he would say, that is because I am me.
27:58
[SPEAKER_00]: When you think about it, fundamentally what I was teaching my son is, when I ask him, so when he would say that, is because I mean, then what I ask him, what does it mean?
28:07
[SPEAKER_00]: He would say, well, hi, I am the person you held in the hospital when I was born.
28:12
[SPEAKER_00]: That being is beautiful and worthy of all the love in the world.
28:16
[SPEAKER_00]: He does not have to do anything and it does not have to be armed to be loved, worthy of love.
28:22
[SPEAKER_00]: that is a profound realization for any human being to have rather than an only word if I perform.
28:29
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
28:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And same thing in a relationship, if in a relationship you are there so that you are loved by the other person so that you feel more worthy so that you feel this void inside yourself.
28:41
[SPEAKER_00]: That's as I am not worthy until I achieve not only in my performance outside in the job,
28:50
[SPEAKER_00]: wordiness through being loved, and all of it is trying to fill a void that can only be filled by you saying, I am worthy just the cause.
28:58
[SPEAKER_05]: That's huge.
28:59
[SPEAKER_05]: We hear it all the time.
29:01
[SPEAKER_05]: It's like I'm not going to enter a relationship until I lose that five pounds or until I get a promotion or until I have X about my bank account.
29:09
[SPEAKER_05]: So I think it is the external, but also the societal pressure of not having what we think we should have.
29:19
[SPEAKER_00]: will feel in the relationship is.
29:22
[SPEAKER_00]: You're asking them to fill a void that's impossible to fill.
29:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:26
[SPEAKER_00]: No matter how much love they give you, you still feel on love.
29:29
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
29:30
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
29:30
[SPEAKER_04]: And then I see that manifesting as our relationship is not going the way that it should be going.
29:37
[SPEAKER_04]: We are not hitting these milestones that we should be hitting as a couple.
29:41
[SPEAKER_04]: And then you start creating that resentment towards your partner because they're not helping you achieve these external milestones.
29:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a way I kind of talk about it's like the Teflon surface, nothing will stick.
29:54
[SPEAKER_00]: No amount of love from the outside will stick to you because the surface will become sticky only if you feel self-love.
30:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Then other people's love will stick.
30:03
[SPEAKER_00]: You believe it.
30:04
[SPEAKER_00]: You retain it, you appreciate it, but if you don't have deep self-love, other people's love comes and it just doesn't stick because if you're not feeling worthy of love, there's something suspicious about other people's love.
30:16
[SPEAKER_00]: There's something wrong with them, loving you, what's wrong with this person, loving this unworthy person that I am?
30:21
[SPEAKER_00]: There must be them or stupid or something, it's wrong with them, or I don't quite believe the love, it probably isn't for real, it's probably not gonna last or something.
30:29
[SPEAKER_00]: But the impact on the other person is they are in a no-win situation.
30:32
[SPEAKER_00]: At some point they're exhausted by just no matter how much I love, I give it's not enough.
30:37
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh my god, this is heavy.
30:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And here's the latest avatars prove themselves right, remember?
30:45
[SPEAKER_00]: By keep saying I'm not worthy and I'm not worthy and not worthy, well, the other person is actually at some point when their love is not being received.
30:51
[SPEAKER_00]: They get frustrated and they leave and then you say, see, I told you I'm not worthy and I told you,
30:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I was right to begin with.
30:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So the savateurs generate their own reality which reinforces their life.
31:02
[SPEAKER_00]: They get more powerful because they keep providing their own evidence or their story, they tell they'd become a self-fulfitting reality.
31:09
[SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
31:10
[SPEAKER_05]: I feel like so much of the last week for me is going to explain it right now.
31:15
[SPEAKER_03]: She really is like, all right.
31:17
[SPEAKER_03]: I got enough out of this.
31:18
[SPEAKER_05]: Realization is all the moment.
31:20
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
31:20
[SPEAKER_05]: So what's our next word in line?
31:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Hyperrational is, you know, the rational function being taken too far, so I'm very unledic all.
31:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm very logical and everything in life, the best way to resolve it, and solve problems is through the rational mind.
31:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Including, if I'm having a conflict with my relationship, well, you figure it out and fix it for you.
31:46
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what's happening.
31:47
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what's happening.
31:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Therefore, the answer is this.
31:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So the hyperrational brings the rational mode.
31:52
[SPEAKER_00]: to problem-solving in a relationship, which has the other person feel unheard, uncaired for the emotions are not listened to, the emotions are not responded to, so you come across as intellectually arrogant, unloving, distant, all of that stuff, trying to fix the other person's problems in this relationship, is quite devastating to a relationship, and what I tell the hyperrational is, the other person will not feel heard,
32:17
[SPEAKER_00]: unless their emotions are actually registered and responded to, write her damn you trying to fix the problem for them.
32:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And so they really step back and realize emotions are not just a noise factor, emotions are incredibly critical pay attention to respond to.
32:34
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the misunderstandings about the hyperrational is because of this behavior we think they are insensitive people but actually they can be incredibly sensitive.
32:42
[SPEAKER_00]: They just have learned not to pay attention to emotions because they think that just makes them not objective.
32:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So they could be quite sensitive but we end up judging them as insensitive because we don't see them in that caring way.
32:55
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, next one.
32:57
[SPEAKER_00]: This is fascinating.
32:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So the hyper vigilant is the one that's finding dangers and risks every verse.
33:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's the kind that walks into a room and you just feel that anxiety about life is a dangerous place.
33:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I got to be vigilant.
33:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I've got to be on top of everything, things can go wrong, and it's an exhausting energy because there's such an anxiety and risk awareness that when we are around, it's pretty exhausting because they see risks and dangers everywhere.
33:28
[SPEAKER_00]: and that becomes contagious where we can't really be resting in front of them.
33:32
[SPEAKER_00]: The impact is it just takes the fun away.
33:34
[SPEAKER_00]: It's an exhausting way to live.
33:36
[SPEAKER_00]: When you think there is a, and you cry well, who's very, very too often because you see the dangers everywhere and then there's an actual wolf, the other person is no longer believing you because you cry well, it's all the time.
33:46
[SPEAKER_05]: Are these the people that, you know, freak out when they start dating someone because they fear that it's going to end or it's not going to work out the way they want?
33:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, a presumption of everything that could go wrong will go wrong and it's again a self-fulfitting prophecy of God there could be so many risks and by and you become you become self-fulfitting there too.
34:09
[SPEAKER_00]: If you are predicting all the things that can go wrong
34:15
[SPEAKER_05]: Right, or like you don't even take a chance when it comes to love, you're just too in your head.
34:20
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't trust that it's just to risk it.
34:22
[SPEAKER_04]: Just a reminder for our listeners right now.
34:24
[SPEAKER_04]: We're halfway through the saboteurs.
34:27
[SPEAKER_04]: I think it's important to note that not just one saboteur defines who you are.
34:31
[SPEAKER_04]: We could have multiple saboteurs appear in some are just more loud than the others.
34:38
[SPEAKER_04]: So don't think like, oh, I am the hypervillant, vigilant person.
34:42
[SPEAKER_04]: Like you could be a combination of few and it's good to recognize that all of them.
34:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, most people have the judge plus a couple of other saboteurs.
34:50
[SPEAKER_05]: I think I had every single one except for the avoiders.
34:53
[SPEAKER_05]: It's not like that.
34:57
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, let's get to the pleaser.
34:58
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's get to the pleaser, let's see what if Julie has that too.
35:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's see.
35:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So after happy vigilance, we have indeed the pleaser.
35:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So the pleaser is kind of better known where I am trying to give to you and be kind and say yes to you and all that stuff.
35:15
[SPEAKER_00]: But there's a condition that I'm really wanting to make sure you like me.
35:19
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
35:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there's a string attached.
35:22
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a difference between me being loving and kind, just because there's joy in that, or so it's loving and kind because I really want you to like me.
35:31
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a neediness to the pleaser.
35:36
[SPEAKER_00]: and I don't even ask for anything for myself because I'm not quite in touch with my own needs and don't express it.
35:42
[SPEAKER_00]: At some point the other person hasn't given me back enough in response because first of all they don't know what my needs are.
35:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Secondly I've been busy giving and not really standing for my own needs.
35:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I start getting frustrated and saying what the hell?
35:54
[SPEAKER_00]: This is on the right run dimension.
35:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Now one direction all year to self-ish you're not giving me enough all that stuff.
35:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So we end up getting quite frustrated and resentful in our relationships.
36:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Why am I the one who's always giving up part of the reasons because you're not making your own needs known enough?
36:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And these sugar code armies, when there is an issue that we have, we don't quite directly help people that we have a need here that's not the myth, because not pleasing tendencies hard for us to actually stand from and what it is that our boundaries are our needs are.
36:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not yet a person's fault that they don't know and they don't give back.
36:27
[SPEAKER_00]: a lot of it is our own creation.
36:28
[SPEAKER_00]: So it generates weirdly it actually destroys relationships because at some point we keep getting the relationship becomes one-dimensional and given take.
36:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And also at some point they're resentful and we push people away out of frustration.
36:41
[SPEAKER_05]: This is the classic nice guy, cool girl syndrome, exactly what's happening.
36:47
[SPEAKER_05]: And there's a reason why those archetypes struggle with relationships for exactly what you just said.
36:53
[SPEAKER_04]: And the love bomber too, the person that's just like, I'm going to give.
36:56
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to give you all the love and do all the courting in the beginning, but then feel a very resentful to the fact that they're not receiving anything back.
37:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and so we have people take responsibility for that, right?
37:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And ask, create boundaries for when am I saying yes?
37:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I lovingly choose to say yes.
37:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, am I saying yes?
37:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I can't say no because that's comfortable for me.
37:20
[SPEAKER_05]: I bet if I did this a couple years ago, I would have scored a lot higher on this one than I did because I definitely never told people what was going on.
37:30
[SPEAKER_05]: I expected them to be Biden readers and I held it in because I didn't want to rock the boat and I think you just build a lot of resentment that way that one day you snap and it's not good.
37:40
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and then you don't want to give at all.
37:42
[SPEAKER_05]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
37:59
[SPEAKER_00]: So some of these avatores are ones that we all have to some extent, but maybe a little bit more extreme people score high on it.
38:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a restlessness in all of us to some extent.
38:13
[SPEAKER_00]: The Buddhist called the mind monkey brain because they say that the mind can't just stay in long-brown chunks from one branch or another,
38:20
[SPEAKER_00]: in mind his resources.
38:22
[SPEAKER_00]: So all of us have a restless mind and with those with the rest of the saboteurs even a little bit more so.
38:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And the issue with the restless is not quite being present with what's in front of them and always thinking there's something better somewhere else.
38:34
[SPEAKER_00]: There's, you know, maybe that next thing and the next thing.
38:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So instead of really being present for what is there, you're always wanting to be somewhere else where they could be more joyful experience of life.
38:45
[SPEAKER_00]: The excuse is that I want to life is short and I want to experience it fully and the paradox is by never quite being there for what's in front of you.
38:54
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not experiencing life at all.
38:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Instead of experiencing it most fully, you're never quite present for like happening right this minute.
39:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So the experience is that you jump to too many things.
39:06
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't finish things that you start.
39:08
[SPEAKER_00]: There's always the shining, the shining next thing that attracts you in relationships.
39:14
[SPEAKER_00]: You might be drawn to the initial phase of a relationship that's shining and beautiful and new and all that stuff.
39:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And not see it through to the place where it is less shiny and more steady and one of the metaphors I use is, you know, it's like wanting to get to water and you dig it well by like 10 feet and then you get bored with that No, let me dig another well, maybe another well another well dig a thousand wells and never get to water because you don't stay with anyone long enough to hit water, right?
39:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So when it comes to relationship, it may be not investing in a relationship long enough to actually get to
39:45
[SPEAKER_05]: this is every data right now.
39:46
[SPEAKER_05]: This is the biggest problem with data.
39:48
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, exactly.
39:49
[SPEAKER_05]: It's like everyone wants the next item and if they, you know, especially with data gaps, it makes it easy to believe there's so many options out there.
39:57
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
39:58
[SPEAKER_05]: And if someone doesn't meet every last part of your checklist, you just move on.
40:02
[SPEAKER_05]: The maximizer.
40:03
[SPEAKER_05]: That's exactly what this is.
40:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
40:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And it minimizes, right?
40:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you never get to water or so you're never present for what is.
40:10
[SPEAKER_05]: And everyone's going to have a flaw.
40:12
[SPEAKER_05]: Every single person you read is going to have a flaw.
40:14
[SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, like, you got to just double down on someone.
40:17
[SPEAKER_05]: There's no one out there.
40:18
[SPEAKER_05]: That's perfect.
40:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And everybody's sage, they're in a Jedi is much more beautiful and gorgeous than even they realize.
40:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So the magic of a relationship can you bring out the best in the other so much so that they even get surprised by what they discover, how beautiful they discover themselves to be.
40:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Most human beings have no clue how beautiful they are in their sage.
40:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's part of my work.
40:39
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to go discover how amazing they are by letting them figure out how to activate deeper and deeper stage in themselves and quiet the saboteurs.
40:48
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I think that's what's really interesting about restless is that it's kind of passive.
40:53
[SPEAKER_04]: You're letting all these things happen to you and you're searching for stimulation, but you're not actually living that moment.
41:01
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's a very passive way of not being in your own body.
41:05
[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like why I identify with this one is when I was dating.
41:08
[SPEAKER_04]: I just didn't identify with where I was, who I was.
41:12
[SPEAKER_04]: I was just more about the act of going on these dates.
41:15
[SPEAKER_04]: I was squeeze them in, you know,
41:17
[SPEAKER_04]: it all in in a day.
41:18
[SPEAKER_04]: But who was I in that moment?
41:20
[SPEAKER_04]: What did people bring out in me?
41:22
[SPEAKER_04]: I didn't even sit in my sage because I didn't even care about that.
41:26
[SPEAKER_04]: It was just more about like finding that next simulation.
41:29
[SPEAKER_05]: And it's like maximizing you feel like you need to squeeze all these dates in so you can find the best person and it's just it's like a perpetual cycle.
41:37
[SPEAKER_04]: But you don't sit to think about it.
41:39
[SPEAKER_04]: I just this person make me feel.
41:40
[SPEAKER_00]: You spread yourself thin, and you don't get to discover your own amazing beauty and power.
41:47
[SPEAKER_05]: Or other people see you there, right?
41:49
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah.
41:50
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
41:50
[SPEAKER_05]: I think we all take a little that way.
41:52
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, let's do this.
41:53
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm excited for a stickler.
41:54
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's my partner.
41:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So the stickler, again, the strength that's taken too far is they are built into focus on detail and to bring organization.
42:06
[SPEAKER_00]: A.S. And so that's a wonderful strength when you're able to bring order and organization to chaos, the deterrence and all that stuff.
42:15
[SPEAKER_00]: But taken too far becomes a stickler and a stickler wants everything to be perfect and everything has to be really great.
42:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And the problem is that instead of seeing what is good enough has good enough and appreciating anything that's good.
42:28
[SPEAKER_00]: You're always pointing to the 1% to per centry person where it's not good enough.
42:32
[SPEAKER_00]: and seeing incredibly discouraging in a relationship, cause no matter what the other person does, what the hair firm used to park that wasn't perfect.
42:40
[SPEAKER_00]: That is incredibly discouraging, cause after a while you say, if I go, really, really, really hard, and I'm 97% perfect in this thing, she's gonna refer to three percent that was on.
42:51
[SPEAKER_00]: So why bother, let's just do a 50% job, because then she's gonna focus on a 50% that was on, that result is gonna be the same, this had its faction and critique.
43:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, generates a lot of anxiety and discouragement in the partner, and in ourselves because life is not perfect, everything will keep falling from order to chaos.
43:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, it creates a lot of anxiety constantly where we're constantly trying to fight life for what it is, which my funds to be in flow and a little bit messier than this deterred funds to allow it to be.
43:19
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a rigidity and anxiety that it brings to both ourselves and our partners.
43:24
[SPEAKER_05]: So my partner is not taking this, but I'm going to go on a gamble that this is him also.
43:28
[SPEAKER_02]: So great.
43:30
[SPEAKER_05]: So one of the things that comes up is unrelenting standards with this.
43:35
[SPEAKER_05]: Do you see that as a flip side of perfectionism or is that different in this case?
43:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, what I teach the people with stickers avatars to do is say, no, create two buckets, 20% 80% and a lot of what you're currently trying to make perfect.
43:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Actually, when you think about it, good enough is good enough for those things.
43:54
[SPEAKER_00]: That's 80% of the stuff you've spread over because the really relaxed take a breath and say, good enough is good enough for these things.
44:01
[SPEAKER_00]: That's 80% of what you worry about and criticize others for.
44:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Now there is a 20% stuff where affection is a good thing to strive for.
44:08
[SPEAKER_00]: That thinks really do matter.
44:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And then for those 20% lovingly put your attention on, you know what to see, they try to make this better, right?
44:15
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's 20% not 100%.
44:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And it allows you to breathe a lot, as other people are on you to breathe and then focus on things where really high standard is very important.
44:24
[SPEAKER_00]: and then you approach that positivity right in constant frustration because the telltale sign you're in saboteur mode is negative and energy and emotion.
44:34
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're frustrated and an absurd know that stuff you're in saboteur mode doesn't matter what's happening.
44:38
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're in sage mode of trying to make something perfect, there's joy, there's funders, creativity, all that good stuff is happening while you're trying to create great stuff.
44:46
[SPEAKER_05]: So if you are in a relationship and you are, nope, certainly, this is something that's a second nature to you.
44:52
[SPEAKER_05]: How do you decide what areas, because no one's ever going to be perfect, right?
44:56
[SPEAKER_05]: Even yourself and your partner.
44:58
[SPEAKER_05]: How do you decide what the 20% is that needs to be perfect in the 80% that needs to be good enough?
45:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's take principles and values.
45:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, to deal break, or if my partner is on ethical is my partner.
45:13
[SPEAKER_00]: doesn't have a sense of mission and purpose that guides their life or stuff like that what is really what needs to be a deal breaker.
45:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And those are foundational stuff that are about purpose, meaning values, all that stuff.
45:26
[SPEAKER_00]: But then how I brush my teeth?
45:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so give me a break, you know, there are multiple ways to scan that.
45:33
[SPEAKER_05]: Got it.
45:34
[SPEAKER_05]: This is helpful.
45:35
[SPEAKER_04]: That's Julie's digging notes.
45:38
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I think with my partner, we kind of talk about, he's just a stickler for everything.
45:43
[SPEAKER_04]: The way things should look and be placed in the house.
45:46
[SPEAKER_04]: The way a date should go down, a birthday should go down.
45:50
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like very much innate in him so that he doesn't even realize that he has these expectations.
45:56
[SPEAKER_04]: So something we've been working on is, are you open to a new way of putting the sideboard or?
46:03
[SPEAKER_04]: a new way of where the bed goes, you know, just being open to the idea of something new is just a nice start to it all.
46:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and realizing how much you're imposing on the others, on the other, with the assumption of there is only one way.
46:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a real imposition and people just feel so constrained around that much of a sticker.
46:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course there's compassion, the other thing we want to bring to our partners is we are equalizing the playing field here by saying, you know what?
46:32
[SPEAKER_00]: We are all imperfect things with saboteurs.
46:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Now your saboteurs are my particular minds and I would like to know either, I would like to know better or worse than the stickler.
46:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to take responsibility for my avoider.
46:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to work on my avoider.
46:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to try to improve on that.
46:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And let's do please also work on your sticker, right?
46:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Because both of us in this relationship are sabotaging the relationship through our saboteurs.
46:54
[SPEAKER_00]: So, very powerful conversation is that I would love for people to do as take the saboteurs assessment, which is in our website.
47:00
[SPEAKER_05]: We'll link it also, yeah.
47:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Bring that information into a conversation that says, how do I self-sabotage?
47:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So you don't attack the other person.
47:08
[SPEAKER_00]: You're actually only focus on yourself.
47:10
[SPEAKER_00]: How do I self-sabotage?
47:12
[SPEAKER_00]: How do I go negative?
47:13
[SPEAKER_00]: The way we know you're in sabotore mode is when you're going to negative emotion.
47:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what we say is any time your negative emotion for more than a second year in South or World, doesn't matter what has happened, who did what to him.
47:25
[SPEAKER_00]: If I'm still a negative emotion about it for more than a second, I am responding to this through my saboteau.
47:32
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a age that, in our Jedi and you, finds a positive mind, modality, curiosity, empathy, creativity, calm, clear head of a mode that's positive to respond to anything.
47:43
[SPEAKER_00]: So basically the question that I would love both parties to come to is how do I sabotage our relationship?
47:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a judge thing.
47:51
[SPEAKER_00]: We start with the judge, how does my judging of myself?
47:54
[SPEAKER_00]: By the way, my judging of myself, not just my judging of you, but my judging of myself sabotages our relations.
48:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Because if I'm constantly fighting myself on worthy of love, then you give me love and I don't quite receive it because I find myself on worthy of it.
48:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I am sabotaging our relationship by judging myself.
48:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So, how am I judging?
48:12
[SPEAKER_00]: How is my judging like myself and judging you?
48:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Have a touching relationship.
48:15
[SPEAKER_00]: As my avoiders stick with a controller, restless whether it's have a touching relationship.
48:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So, it's a self-reporting.
48:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Not let me tell you how you're salvaging us.
48:24
[SPEAKER_05]: So, do we have any more laughter do we get?
48:26
[SPEAKER_05]: Big demo.
48:27
[SPEAKER_04]: One more.
48:28
[SPEAKER_00]: One more.
48:28
[SPEAKER_04]: This is a really good one.
48:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
48:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So the victim clear, it's a very well-known saboteur.
48:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm feeling particularly single-doubt for bad things happening to me and and for things that you did, oh my god, for me.
48:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's an orientation towards
48:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Self-pity and feeling sorry for myself and constantly finding what's been done to me by the world by others by you And so it was one of my top sabbathers a very sneaky bond.
48:58
[SPEAKER_00]: It was actually very protective for me I was I was in a cocoon of depression.
49:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I find the fun that and I was 30 or so that I've been depression all my life in a cocoon of self-pity Through this victim sabbathor which actually helped me remove myself
49:13
[SPEAKER_00]: from the world and sued myself, what I realized if thinking about victim was, I saw one at love, but in the absence of love, I was giving myself pity and pity is actually quite soothing.
49:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And so a lot of people in victim saboteur they find it addictive to being self pity, because self pity is soothing.
49:33
[SPEAKER_00]: At some point I realized that while self pity was soothing and comforting was a very bad substitute for actual love.
49:40
[SPEAKER_05]: We always say, too, it's like, what is the benefit?
49:43
[SPEAKER_05]: We know that, you know, Stanzi need a vet, we're not gonna say that you don't, but a lot of times this misery loves company, just everything is going wrong for me, mentality.
49:52
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, how is that actually serving you in the quest for love?
49:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, at some point, that's because very self-fulfilling because if I think that people are particularly mistreating me and particularly not loving me and all that stuff, at some point people get so fed up that they do reject you.
50:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I say, I told you, I told you people are singling me out and it's a self-fulfilling prophecy like every other side of the world.
50:16
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
50:16
[SPEAKER_05]: If you think someone's going to ghost, they're probably going to ghost.
50:19
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
50:20
[SPEAKER_04]: And you're always in this, why me, why me mentality.
50:24
[SPEAKER_04]: So then you start seeing, oh, all my friends are in healthy relationships.
50:28
[SPEAKER_04]: You start finding evidence to prove your victim right when it's actually not the truth.
50:33
[SPEAKER_05]: This one's, this one's tough.
50:34
[SPEAKER_05]: I think we've all been in the victim mode.
50:36
[SPEAKER_05]: It's hard to get out of it, which I guess is the next question is now that we know all this, which I think I've connected so many of these hours just don't we get so that alone is helpful, but how what are some steps we can take to make sure our relationships don't suffer from this.
50:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so the most important is become aware of your own sabotors.
50:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what we want you to do is do the sabotors assessment, which is a free assessment on positiveintelligence.com.
51:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So you do the five minutes, I don't need to take five minutes.
51:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Once you understand your sabotors, then we want you to witness yourself the moment you go to sabotors.
51:15
[SPEAKER_00]: By the way, we know the way we tell if you're in sabotors mode is negative in motion.
51:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So the moment you go to any negative emotion, you stop and label that moment and say right now I'm inside with the remote stop.
51:26
[SPEAKER_00]: The thought in my head and the emotions is generating a saboteurs is not serving me, I need to shift.
51:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a three step process.
51:34
[SPEAKER_00]: First step is you witness yourself in saboteur more and you label that moment as a writer and say, no, the starting my head is my judges' thought.
51:42
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not my thought.
51:43
[SPEAKER_00]: My controller is saying this.
51:45
[SPEAKER_00]: My judge is saying, I'm unworthy.
51:47
[SPEAKER_00]: My judge is saying you are unworthy.
51:48
[SPEAKER_00]: My controller is saying this.
51:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I would just think this.
51:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I am not saying it, it's not me, it's the saboteur saying it's labeled as saboteur.
51:55
[SPEAKER_00]: It takes away the power and credibility of that voice, so that's stop number one.
51:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Step number two, you do these things because of the PQ wrap.
52:03
[SPEAKER_00]: It only takes 10 seconds, and it shifts the brain activation.
52:06
[SPEAKER_00]: It's twice the region of the brain where saboteurs live, it activates the region of the brain.
52:10
[SPEAKER_00]: where you're in a Jedi or your sage lives.
52:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to do a pick-up at least so that we know how to do it.
52:16
[SPEAKER_00]: So just do a pick-up with me.
52:20
[SPEAKER_00]: There are many ways to do it, but that's the one popular way.
52:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So please take two fingertips and gently rub two fingertips against each other, gently rub two fingertips against each other with such attention that you can feel
52:36
[SPEAKER_00]: the fingertip ridges on both fingers, gently rub two fingertips against each other with such attention that you can feel the fingertip ridges on both fingers.
52:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was about a little more than 10 seconds.
52:52
[SPEAKER_00]: We call this a pq wrap, pq stands for positive intelligence quotient,
52:56
[SPEAKER_00]: and that the Q-Rap is each time you do this and takes only 10 seconds.
53:01
[SPEAKER_00]: If you had your head under a function and my eye machine, you would have noticed that it just distance a second thing you did.
53:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Ever so slightly, quieted the region of your brain, where all your saboteurs live, and ever so slightly activated the region of your brain, where you're in a jet-eyed, or your sage live.
53:15
[SPEAKER_00]: So, what I did was I intercept this avatars, I didn't know to that, started doing this figure out, maybe 10 seconds won't be enough initially, maybe you need to do a minute or two.
53:25
[SPEAKER_00]: But as you do these, I promise to you, feel a shift in your mind, and you now have access to a part of your brain that has access to your inner Jedi stage who can figure out how to be more empathic, compassionate loving towards yourself and towards the other people.
53:42
[SPEAKER_00]: and how to be in deeper curiosity, creativity, or a calm, clear-headed action.
53:47
[SPEAKER_00]: All of those are powers of the sage.
53:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have just shifted yourself to the part of your brain activation, that has access to these great positive powers.
53:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And step number three is then you respond to the situation with one of these positive nodes and there are five nodes that in the book I go into deeper, think that
54:06
[SPEAKER_00]: But the first one is empathize.
54:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Second one is explore, which is beginner's mind deep curiosity.
54:13
[SPEAKER_00]: The third one is innovate.
54:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Think out of the box about how to do it a situation.
54:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Fourth one is navigate.
54:18
[SPEAKER_00]: You're guided by deeper meaning, sense of meaning and purpose.
54:21
[SPEAKER_00]: What's really is important here at the kind of question you ask.
54:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And the final one is activate, which is home.
54:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Clear headed laser focused fearless action.
54:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are the five positive modes that your energy that I have.
54:33
[SPEAKER_00]: They all get activated if you do this 10 seconds
54:36
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's very repeatable.
54:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Like every challenge you have, every difficulty you have in a relationship, I promise you if you're in a step down do this, it's gonna have a profound impact on your relationship.
54:47
[SPEAKER_00]: including the fact that you want to make a promise to each other in a relationship that when one party is very strongly hijacked, you will stop having a conversation, you'll cut each other some slack, and you will literally give each other a time a break to do to go out for a walk and do these pick-your-rucks or actually sit there, do pick-your-rucks together or just take time off so that you recover back to the positive part of your brain before you continue a conversation.
55:13
[SPEAKER_04]: we just did this last night.
55:15
[SPEAKER_04]: I can tell you, it works.
55:18
[SPEAKER_04]: My partner and I were in a heat of conversation.
55:20
[SPEAKER_04]: My judge came out so hard, and I rub my two fingers against each other.
55:23
[SPEAKER_04]: I was like, I got a peak here.
55:27
[SPEAKER_04]: I was like, I got a peak here.
55:28
[SPEAKER_04]: Awesome.
55:28
[SPEAKER_05]: And I love it.
55:29
[SPEAKER_04]: I came back as a perfect angel.
55:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Just gonna.
55:32
[SPEAKER_04]: But no, it really, it really does help to intercept the train of thought.
55:37
[SPEAKER_00]: We recommend having a weekly cadence.
55:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And I give you an example, one of the CEOs that I coach in Boston for the past 20 plus years now.
55:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone's the, he and his wife are holding hands.
55:52
[SPEAKER_00]: They walk into this restaurant in their neighborhood.
55:55
[SPEAKER_00]: The staff in the restaurant knows there's this corner table that this,
55:59
[SPEAKER_00]: husband and wife will get and they always serve them rosé in the beginning and they're holding hands are walking in and the conversation they have every Wednesday is since our last Wednesday then has anything happened that might be my consider or read in our garden.
56:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Did I do anything or say anything that you really need to make sure I understand, make sure I hear and each party make
56:28
[SPEAKER_00]: they understand or explain things all of that stuff.
56:31
[SPEAKER_00]: This is wheat pudding because we have only had a week to worry about it and make assumptions about it.
56:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And it also allows the husband and wife, let's say, he's running out the door on Monday and he said something in a rush that she thinks was disrespectful or whatever.
56:48
[SPEAKER_00]: She doesn't have to stop him right then and there and say, stop, you just hurt my feelings or anything like that.
56:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye.
56:53
[SPEAKER_00]: because she knows on Wednesday they're going to get to talk about it.
56:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So during the week, you can actually be more gentle with each other, you know, you cut each other some slack, because you know there is a time and a place where you will actually sit down and make sure you talk about it.
57:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, this is an example of having commitment to keeping your relationship healthy because no matter what you do, there are things you do and say that they're up the other person a little bit the wrong way.
57:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you have a cadence that says every week, we're going to talk about it.
57:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Then there's, you don't have to walk on excels with each other.
57:23
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't need to have a difficult time bringing it up because you know it's going to be brought up.
57:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
57:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would highly recommend a cadence like that.
57:30
[SPEAKER_05]: So how do you have that type of conversation in a way that doesn't feel combative?
57:37
[SPEAKER_05]: And as the person receiving that information, you don't take it personally?
57:47
[SPEAKER_00]: time and a place for it.
57:49
[SPEAKER_00]: It makes it easier, right?
57:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Because we now know we are going into this inner conversation.
57:55
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to have our rosé.
57:57
[SPEAKER_00]: we're going to be in a sage mode, and we have an agreement with each other, which says our job number one is deep understanding of the other person in this conversation.
58:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's the rule is when the other person says, when this happened, you know, it had the same fact on me, my job number one is to say, here's what I'm hearing today, you're correctly there, I understand your feelings, work, or all that stuff.
58:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So already there is a thing we are making sure is happening is that this conversation is happening and both people are in a sage mode.
58:26
[SPEAKER_00]: When I am in my sage mode, I am activating a part of my brain that's more empathic, more compassionate, more understanding.
58:34
[SPEAKER_00]: The time you don't want to have these conversations is when people are high-tech.
58:38
[SPEAKER_00]: When the other person is all high-tech, in their judge controller,
58:43
[SPEAKER_00]: You're wasting your breath to say, just to say, you know, you got to hear me now.
58:47
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what happened.
58:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And how often has have you experienced that when you're in that kind of mode, there is any hearing happening.
58:54
[SPEAKER_00]: What's so ever on the other side?
58:55
[SPEAKER_00]: There isn't.
58:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So what we recommend is, recognize when any party is hijacked and one of our agreements with each other is, we cut each other some slack.
59:04
[SPEAKER_00]: When somebody is hijacked in a situation, we don't insist on having conversation right here and now.
59:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's do some peculiar ups, take time out, so you shift your brain activation, so you stop being an eye to actually activate the vision of your brain, where your Jedi lives, your sage lives, rarer on your saboteurs.
59:21
[SPEAKER_00]: We call this work mental fitness, and the reason the current mental fitness is that, having the ideas is not enough, how often do you read a book and at the end of it you say, oh my god, this was life changing, I got it.
59:33
[SPEAKER_00]: often do go to your workshop and say oh my god this was life changing and I got it and three months later you're right back to the old behavior and the reason is the reason is that saboteurs have built muscles in your brain by repeating and repeating and repeating their behavior that built neural pathways in the brain that becomes the muscle of that mode in your brain.
59:53
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't fight muscle with insight.
59:55
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to fight muscle with muscle, which means your sage, which hasn't practiced as long.
1:00:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It needs to build up that muscular power so that you have a fighting chance against your saboteau.
1:00:06
[SPEAKER_00]: What they have found is that you need a minimum of
1:00:09
[SPEAKER_00]: about six to eight weeks, six weeks minimum.
1:00:12
[SPEAKER_00]: 15 minutes a day of practice of shifting from sauerkraut or to sage building up these past the powers so that you can really break through years and sometimes decades of sauerkraut or behavior.
1:00:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So
1:00:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So for that, like the main program, my company offers, which UA is doing right now is actually a six-week positive intelligence app guide at training, or every day we give you 15 minutes of practice.
1:00:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And we focus on your exact specific saboteurs, we focus on the whole week of doing these pick-ups.
1:00:42
[SPEAKER_00]: We focus three weeks on these positive powers of your stage, so that you build mental muscle memory, counter the old stuff.
1:00:53
[SPEAKER_00]: really build up the muscles, not just stop at the inside.
1:00:56
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's so important.
1:00:57
[SPEAKER_05]: I think it's really important for you all to hear that you're not going to solve all this just by listening to this episode.
1:01:02
[SPEAKER_05]: This is just step one.
1:01:03
[SPEAKER_05]: This is just a quick cover where of it.
1:01:06
[SPEAKER_05]: This has been such a fascinating conversation.
1:01:09
[SPEAKER_05]: I've personally learned so much from it.
1:01:11
[SPEAKER_05]: I think the biggest takeaway I have is that
1:01:14
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, the more information we know about our behavior, our mindset, our intelligence, the way we process information, the better.
1:01:22
[SPEAKER_05]: Because there's nothing wrong with us.
1:01:25
[SPEAKER_05]: There's nothing wrong with our relationship.
1:01:28
[SPEAKER_05]: This is natural.
1:01:29
[SPEAKER_05]: I think just even hearing that this happens to everyone, everyone has these.
1:01:33
[SPEAKER_05]: saboteurs and they come out in different ways and this is what makes relationships so difficult but also wonderful at the same time because it does shed awareness to ourselves and the reality is even if we're not in a romantic relationship we're going to be in a relationship with people in our lives unless we're locker ourselves away and we're a hermit but that's not a fulfilling life either.
1:01:55
[SPEAKER_05]: we need that connection.
1:01:56
[SPEAKER_05]: So it's important to flex these muscles, regardless of what relationship status you are in, or if you desire to have that deeper, committed relationship, where this is bound to come out, getting ahead of this information upfront is so essential.
1:02:12
[SPEAKER_05]: And there's a reason why relationships are called relationships is because we're relational to each other.
1:02:19
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think the part around how we bring out and our other saboteurs are kind of activated because of the other person's saboteurs.
1:02:30
[SPEAKER_05]: It's really fascinating, the cycle that we can get in.
1:02:33
[SPEAKER_05]: So getting ahead of this stuff and
1:02:35
[SPEAKER_05]: taking that time to address it, to become aware of it, and all the exercises that you shared with us, the sit downs, all of that.
1:02:44
[SPEAKER_05]: I think that is so important to prioritize to have a relationship that lasts.
1:02:49
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, that could be more.
1:02:51
[SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
1:02:52
[SPEAKER_04]: In the interest of time, I'm going to keep my really short.
1:02:55
[SPEAKER_04]: My biggest take away is we can't expect other people to be like us, and we can't expect to control other people or change their behavior.
1:03:02
[SPEAKER_04]: The only thing we have control over is ourselves.
1:03:04
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's why this type of work is so profound because it labels the saboteurs, but also just the lies our mind is telling us.
1:03:14
[SPEAKER_04]: And for me, what has been most eye-opening through your program, Shazad, is
1:03:20
[SPEAKER_04]: my mind defaults to my saboteurs.
1:03:23
[SPEAKER_04]: And I realize I have this default setting that influences everything I do in life.
1:03:28
[SPEAKER_04]: And if I can change that default setting to something that's more beneficial for me, that is the most powerful gift I can give to myself.
1:03:36
[SPEAKER_04]: So
1:03:36
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you Shazad for being on our show.
1:03:38
[SPEAKER_04]: There's just so much more information.
1:03:41
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1:03:50
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1:03:56
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1:04:04
[SPEAKER_04]: We really do appreciate that.
1:04:06
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much again.
1:04:07
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not clear.
1:04:09
[SPEAKER_00]: My pleasure.
1:04:09
[SPEAKER_04]: I haven't done so yet.
1:04:11
[SPEAKER_04]: Subscribe to the psychology of relationships today.
1:04:14
[SPEAKER_04]: So you don't miss an episode.
1:04:16
[SPEAKER_04]: And we'll see you all next week.
1:04:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye.