Latest / It's All Poetry / Every Seed Destroys Its “Container” (with Catherine LaSota)

Transcript

Every Seed Destroys Its “Container” (with Catherine LaSota) · It's All Poetry

• Nicole (01:30) okay. I gotta get back into it. New season. All right, everyone. Welcome back to It's All Poetry. Today we have Catherine Lesoda here with us. and Catherine is a creativity advisor and inspirer who has lived and worked in New York City for almost three decades. Through one-on-one coaching, workshops, and group programs, she supports folks in developing and sustaining methods and containers for their creative practice. Catherine is a parent of two young children, a certified advanced scuba diver, a former bartender, and a director of cross-disciplinary programs in higher education for over 15 years. She has two MFAs, as well as training as a facilitator, French horn player, and singer, and she believes that anything can be approached as a creative practice. She's also traveled in five of the seven continents so far. Catherine so far. Catherine LaSota (02:24) So far. Nicole (02:27) Welcome. Is there anything else you want people to know before we get into our conversation today? Catherine LaSota (02:32) I think that was a great intro. Thank you for reading it. I had mentioned before we started recording that I didn't quite remember what bio I sent you, but I like that one and it has me already thinking about a bio as a container of sorts Nicole (02:46) Mm. Catherine LaSota (02:47) for how we describe ourselves. So I'm ready to dive in. Nicole (02:51) Awesome. Okay. So we're going to be talking about the word container today, which I know shows up a lot in your work, but before we get into all the definitions and the etymology and how we use it, I'm wondering if you can recall like your earliest memory of the word container. Catherine LaSota (03:11) I was thinking about this as a fan of your podcast and hearing Nicole (03:15) Mm-hmm. Catherine LaSota (03:15) other people reflect on their earliest memories. And I can think of moments where container came up. I don't know if there's an earliest memory, but associations that I have with container, I I somehow first think of when I was a kid and in the backyard and gardening and gardening containers and plants in their containers. And I'm not surprised by this because my father was a horticulture professor and we had a very nice garden. So there were often new things from the nursery out back, ready to be planted in their containers, and they didn't stay in the containers. They went into the earth and then their roots were able to expand. So that's already making me think of interesting things about what a container can and can't do. but outside of that, I mean, now I, of course, as you mentioned, use it a lot in my work, but that's what's one of the first Things that comes to mind. and also when I did first move to New York City almost three decades ago, for some reason that was the first time I had encountered the container store in a real way, if you're familiar. Nicole (04:24) Mm. Catherine LaSota (04:25) And as an artist, I was really intrigued by that store, much in the same way as I was intrigued by Staples. And I know I'm throwing out brand names here with no sponsorship, but Both of those places offered these like tools of possibility and the container store was literally like you can have an organized life if only you have these containers. So that I'll leave it with those two to start. Nicole (04:51) Yeah, yeah. I was also thinking about this and when I was younger my my mom used to do Tupperware parties. Did you Catherine LaSota (05:00) wow. Nicole (05:00) did you ever experience those? where she would like invite people over and like I guess they would all sell I don't know if this is an MLM of that thing that was happening, but I think it was kind of like they're all trying to sell each other Tupperware. Catherine LaSota (05:13) Totally I mean, it's a classic L I love it. I Nicole (05:15) Yeah. Catherine LaSota (05:16) I know there's the whole there's like the Mary Kay industry and there's the Tupperware, but that's that's a great early container memory right there. Nicole (05:24) Yeah. Yeah. And more recently I've gotten into smoothies and Jeremy's like, You need containers for the freezer because your bags of chopped strawberries are all over the place. Catherine LaSota (05:36) In inefficient containers. Nicole (05:37) Yes, inefficient containers. Awesome. Well let's talk a bit more about how you use the word container now because I've taken a workshop with you called Creative Containers. Right? Was that the whole name? Catherine LaSota (05:49) That's right. The whole name of the workshop that you took was called Build Your Creative Containers. And I use I do use the term creative containers on its own in different different ways. I have a series of interviews that I do with artists that I call the Creative Containers Interview Series. And I have that workshop, Build Your Creative Containers. I use it now, and it's important to me now, and in that context, I do work with as my think my bio mentioned, folks who are developing a creative practice of any kind or trying to get back to their creative practice, writers, artists, musicians. ~ and something that I've noticed with our art practices is that there are no there are there are a lot of rules from the outside that make us think we need to do things a certain way. But truly there are no rules really when you get into it and when you're making the work. And it is one of these rare places in life where there isn't a prescribed path necessarily about how to do the thing. There's not one way to write a book. There's not one way to keep any kind of creative practice. And so that workshop that you took, and the reason I talk about creative containers and building your own creative container so much is because it's a place where we maybe don't necessarily have the practice to put those parameters on our life or those containers within which we can hold all of the possibility of a creative project, which can be so big and overwhelming if you don't have these containers set up for yourself. Nicole (07:26) Yeah. And I'm so glad you mentioned the word build because I feel like that's really important in the way you talk about it. And what resonates so much with me is it's not like trying to fit yourself into a pre created container that someone else gave you. You create your creative containers so that you can work within them. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, we're gonna that's gonna come up again as we get into the definitions because there are some definitions I was particularly excited to share with you. So if you're ready for it. Let's start working our way backwards through time. Catherine LaSota (07:58) I love it. I love it also, it's not in my bio, but I was a Latin student in high school and the desire to know the roots of words and many words that I use today has stayed with me, so I'm so excited for this conversation. Let's go. Nicole (08:12) Amazing. Well, please feel free to correct my pronunciation of any Latin words. Catherine LaSota (08:15) I will not. Nicole (08:18) Okay, well, we're going to start with some of the modern definitions. And of course, I do want to say up front that we're using the word container, but we're going to also look at contain, of course, because a lot of the etymology and the definitions we need to look at that that root of it. So I want to look at these modern day definitions though as if they are rough drafts. So As I read them, like take note of what feels good, what doesn't. I think you do tend to use the word in a way that might not jive with the with the modern definitions. And so I want to like talk about that. So the definition of container as a noun is simply, you know, one that contains, such as a receptacle, such as a box or a jar for holding goods, or a Portable compartment in which freight is placed, as on a train or a ship, for convenience of movement. So let's talk about that for a minute before we look at contain. But does anything resonate with you or that you hate? Catherine LaSota (09:22) Definitely. I don't I don't hate any of it. That's a very strong word, Nicole. Nicole (09:25) Mm-hmm. Catherine LaSota (09:28) but what resonates with me, I guess, two things in there that I I have thought about a lot, especially when I was building that workshop that you mentioned. what I hear in that definition are these ideas of holding something and also of transporting something. And That is something that I do resonate with in terms of how I use container. container a container can stay in one place. It can be it can be I'm looking right now at a container that is speaking of plants, I have a plant right in front of me that had to be moved into a larger container when it outgrew its current pot. And it stays in one place mostly, but it is transportable also. So this is a container that is mobile, but we choose to keep it in one place. So Yeah, I guess in terms of, you know, how that relates to how I think in terms of creative containers is that there is in this idea of holding something and also moving something, I start thinking in terms of purpose and also possibly rigidity of where something is and where it Nicole (10:39) Hm. Catherine LaSota (10:39) can be. So a creative container, for example, could be something that helps you transport the ideas you used in previous projects to a new form. And that could be a container and that's how you move it over. You take certain tools and it becomes part of the toolbox in the container. Or and just in terms of holding something, I mean if we're gonna get really literal into writing projects, you have, you know, maybe sometimes people will ask, how do you know if something's a short story or a novel? And there's different ways that those containers can hold ideas in different ways. So I don't think it's completely unrelated to how I talk about it. And I could I could get into it more. I think you mentioned freight. Nicole (11:22) Yes. Catherine LaSota (11:22) And right? So then there's commerce and then there's all these associations with w what are you transporting? Does it belong to you? Does you have to get it to somebody who purchased it? You know, I c I'm creating whole stories around what these containers are doing now, but as somebody who likes to work in the realm of writing, I just want to run with the metaphors completely in terms of what it means creatively to think in terms of like I'm I'm thinking of the Steve Adores here in New York City, right? And like moving the containers from ships and Nicole (11:55) Mm-hmm. Catherine LaSota (11:56) yeah, I don't know, how do they land with you? Or did they do they resonate with you? Nicole (12:00) Yeah, I think one one thought that keeps popping up as we're talking about this is autonomy of being the thing in the container. Like that it requires someone outside the container to move it from one container to the other, like when we talk about plant or things in a freight. And then also in my mind, I keep imagining a hermit crab which changes its own container. So I Catherine LaSota (12:25) Interesting. Nicole (12:26) don't know if you have thoughts on like Do you feel like there needs to be collaboration, I guess, with what is inside the container and what is outside the container? Catherine LaSota (12:37) That is a really interesting question. And as you were asking it, I started thinking about whether a container has any agency. Nicole (12:46) Yeah yeah. Catherine LaSota (12:48) And, you know, are containers endur and require some outside force because even with that hermit crab, the the content of the container is moving the container, right? Nicole (12:56) Mm. Catherine LaSota (12:57) I could argue that shells are in some way alive and connected to nature and we're all of a piece and we're all stardust and it's all Nicole (13:04) Mm. Catherine LaSota (13:05) You know, there's that and then there's man made containers of plastic and gosh, it could go on and on. But but that's interesting. when when thinking about that workshop, I know one of the things that I talk about are emotional containers and the people around you and how your people can be a form of container for your creative practice and your relationships. So it gets a little bit more murky, I guess, in the way that I use container than in this strict definition. but It's definitely an object. We're definitely talking about a noun here. So I can I can we can we can de I think we can agree on that. Nicole (13:41) Yes, yes. I feel like this is a rabbit hole that I should not continue down. Catherine LaSota (13:46) I will go down any rabbit hole. in fact, is a rabbit hole a container for a rabbit? I don't know. I don't maybe. Containers can change shape for sure. Nicole (13:56) I do love that. Well, and I know you and I have talked about in the past. I do love the idea of like the creative project, which is, I guess, separate from the container, but having a bit of its own like mind or agency or desires or life. So yeah, but let's keep moving forward. I'm a little worried with where I'm gonna go. Yeah. Catherine LaSota (14:13) Yeah, no, I I we we can definitely move forward and not stay in the rabbit hole, but now I'm I'm definitely in part of my brain it's gonna be continuing to turn over this idea of relationship. Nicole (14:22) Yes. Catherine LaSota (14:23) and how that comes into play with container, 'cause that's definitely comes into play with all aspects of creativity. Nicole (14:29) Yeah, no, absolutely. I'm sure it'll come up again. but let's look at contain the verb, which doesn't have a lot of surprises in it from what we've already talked about, right? The first definition is to have within, or which I thought was interesting, to comprise, right? So something can contain many things. Like the example in the dictionary is the bill contains several new clauses. So it's not just containing one thing, you know, it contains and it's part of a whole, which which I kinda like. and then also we have to keep within limits, such as restrain or control, and to check or halt, which is similar as in this like contain the spread of a wildfire or the spread of a disease, or contain kind of this antagonist enemy, right? It sounds like you're holding something negative from from spreading as one of the definitions. Catherine LaSota (15:24) Hm. I'm that's interesting. I'm glad you mentioned the examples of wildfire here and containing something possibly harmful because when you first started that definition And I've looked into this too in the contain and with together and or you Nicole (15:39) Mm-hmm. Catherine LaSota (15:39) know to or with to having with, excuse me, having with. I s I would think of that as a a negative connotation of contain if it's controlling something. Because I but it it depends on what you're controlling, maybe, and whose point of view here, which is so interesting because people will say things like contain yourself and I don't know if this is coming up in another example that that would mention, but like that is a controlling thing. So it doesn't s whatever you're doing doesn't spread further than what you're doing. Like the wildfire, we don't want it to spread. And so we want to contain it. But what do we what is harmful to contain? And I that's that's why I'm also talking about building your own containers, because in those contexts, the harmful containers I think are the ones that people outside of you are trying to put onto you in the context of your own work, your own practice, your own artistic self. so yeah, that's I it's this it's so interesting. What w what do you think about contain as as a verb then? Nicole (16:50) Yeah, I mean I think this is probably partially why that idea of agency was coming up in my mind. Cause if you are the wildfire, I like how you said point of view, right? If you're from the point of view of the wildfire, maybe you're like, Stop containing me. I am here to spread. Yeah. Catherine LaSota (17:03) Right. I'm doing my thing. Nicole (17:06) but you know, it also is like we need to contain wildfire. but yeah, so I I think it does matter the point of view and also that's why I'm I'm just very interested in this relationship, right? 'Cause containing the wildfire is good for everyone all around it, right? So it if it is this kind of mutual collaborative relationship between the container and the containe. Catherine LaSota (17:32) Mm. Well, I mean, that that POV with the wildfire, what came to mind when you're talking about well, we all want to contain it because what what is it what is it destroying if it if it moves Nicole (17:45) Mm-hmm. Catherine LaSota (17:45) further? So then the idea of a container existing in order to protect something else. There's a judgment call always when there's a container. I think I think we could argue, maybe, that in Nicole (17:57) Hm. Catherine LaSota (17:57) any case of containment there is some kind of judgment and we can decide Nicole (18:02) Mm. Catherine LaSota (18:02) whether we agree with that judgment or not. Nicole (18:05) Right. Yeah. And when we think about creative projects, it seems to me like a big part of having a container that will sustain your work involves like saying no to things and like containing distractions into another area. Ooh, there should be like a distraction container. Close the door, look at later. Yeah, yeah. Catherine LaSota (18:27) Sure. I mean, does everything need its place, right? so what and what what does the security need to be on each of these containers? How yeah, how secure does our distraction container need to be and how can we make it such? What does it mean to have a deadbolt on our distraction container? What does that look Nicole (18:45) Hm. Catherine LaSota (18:45) like? Nicole (18:45) Yeah. and then you also mentioned the keeping oneself under control, which is the intransitive verb definition is you know, to keep oneself under control. So again, we're kind of talking about agency, and the example it gives is when I saw them after so many years, I could hardly contain my excitement. Right. So Catherine LaSota (19:06) Right. That's so interesting. That that I mean, I've we've I think we've all heard this before. I could hardly contain myself. I'm like, why do you have to? Nicole (19:13) Hmm. Catherine LaSota (19:14) W who's saying you have to? And what would happen if you didn't? Nicole (19:18) Yeah. who knows? Sometimes it feels like I might explode out of my skin. Catherine LaSota (19:23) Your skin is a container. Nicole (19:25) It's actually one of the synonyms. All right, let's talk about synonyms. So yes, Catherine LaSota (19:29) I love it. All right. Nicole (19:32) skin is one of the synonyms. and also to talk a bit more about skin. So when Jeremy, my researcher, and I were talking about this, you know, I was like, yeah, like your skin holds in your body. And he's like, Yeah, but also it's like a skin for holding water, like because skin was one of the materials Catherine LaSota (19:48) Yeah. Nicole (19:49) for early containers. Yeah. so I thought that was really cool. and we also have vessel, housing, casket and cradle, which is kinda cool 'cause it's like a cradle early life, cast it ending Catherine LaSota (20:02) my goodness. Nicole (20:03) life, yeah. Catherine LaSota (20:04) And what are containers between the two, Nicole? Nicole (20:07) Yeah. skin. There you go. Catherine LaSota (20:09) There you go. Nicole (20:12) Organizer is another one. and then one of my favorites for you and your work was reservoir. Cause it brings up this idea of like stored potential. Catherine LaSota (20:24) Totally. Well, I also really loved organizer, which you went through kind of fast there, but I think that's Nicole (20:27) Mm. I did, yeah. Catherine LaSota (20:30) a good one t as well. Like I'm thinking even of of the you know, if you have a drawer organizer, sometimes it's these little containers that hold the pencils and hold the paper clips and you know, so that they don't you can find things better if Nicole (20:45) Yeah. Catherine LaSota (20:45) they're contained properly. And then, what did you say, reservoir, right? Nicole (20:50) Yeah. Catherine LaSota (20:51) So so who cares how deep your reservoir is if you can't access anything in it? Nicole (20:56) Mm. Catherine LaSota (20:57) I mean, you can care, it can be a subconscious, it can be a thing, but like you can't like actively use it in your creative practice if you have trouble accessing it and what containers can be set up to get there. Nicole (21:10) Hmm. Yeah. and you're right. I did skip over organizer kind of quickly. I think my brain thought it was the most boring one, which I think is worth noting because I think, yeah, I know Catherine LaSota (21:17) Hmm. Interesting, Nicole. Nicole (21:22) it's like organizers, but obviously like my desk has so many organizers. I've got like a little basket to hold my tissues and like a bunch of stuff, and it would be chaos without those organizers, which reminds me again when Jeremy and I were chatting about this before we started recording. He said he feels like containers get like a bad rap. Like they they don't get the credit they deserve, is what he said. That Catherine LaSota (21:45) Mm. Nicole (21:46) what gets the credit is like what comes out of the container or what the container is holding. And we don't always give great credit to the organizer that's holding the pens that we need to write. Catherine LaSota (21:57) Listen, I could go on and on about like support staff in many work situations, all kinds of things. The people who don't get credit for the th I could go on about parenting in certain respects. I could do like all kinds of things where there's the silent organizer or like, you know, Nicole (22:17) Yeah. Catherine LaSota (22:18) that makes things happen. I'm I'm curious to hear, you know, that you you're looking at your desk and you're you're seeing these organizers on your desk and that was the word or the the part that you skipped over. Nicole (22:33) Mm. Catherine LaSota (22:34) What is there something that we take for granted? Like I'm look I'm looking we're on video right now just for the conversation and I can see your wall and there is artwork in frames, which I could argue is a container. They're everywhere. Nicole (22:49) Mm-hmm. No, absolutely. I don't think I even would have called out the artwork in frames, but that makes sense. I mean, we've got this pot that my plants my fake plant is in. Got shelves Catherine LaSota (22:58) Yeah. Nicole (23:00) for my my books. got a jar for my pens. I have a water bottle and a coffee like tumbler. So so many containers. Catherine LaSota (23:11) That's why I like you, Nicole. Multiple beverages. All the cool people have multiple beverages at all times. Nicole (23:16) Yes, yes. I also have my vitamin B pills in a jar. They would be all over the place. Catherine LaSota (23:22) I mean, you would have to you would have to getting back to the word organize, organize your life differently. Maybe the Nicole (23:25) Yeah. Yes. Catherine LaSota (23:27) pills wouldn't exist in your office space and they would be somewhere else and you would take one out at a time, but you can keep them nearby and it becomes more convenient for you to integrate something into your life because you have a container in the proper place to make it easier. Nicole (23:42) Yeah. All right. I hope everyone takes that they need to champion their containers. And well, you take one thing from this Catherine LaSota (23:48) Ha ha ha Nicole (23:50) episode, that is it. but I think you're right, like it is kind of invisible labor of a sense. okay, so let's keep going backwards through time. So the earliest definition that we could find of container, the noun, was nineteen thirteen, and it is simply one who or that which con contains and that's it. But what's interesting to me is that it has the one who or that which. So it's more and as we go backwards from through time, one thing we'll start to see is the word contain. it becomes more object the further into the future you get. So as we go backwards through time, it's more of a descriptor of humans than it is of objects. So Catherine LaSota (24:37) Mm. Nicole (24:38) we kind of see that pivot here. Catherine LaSota (24:40) Well, that's so interesting when you say that. I'm thinking of that synonym or I think it was in the synonym listing when you mentioned skin and Nicole (24:50) Mm-hmm. Catherine LaSota (24:50) and skin skins used as containers and not to get weird or graphic about human bodies, but just thinking through time it's it was animal skins, Nicole (25:01) Mm. Catherine LaSota (25:01) of course. And humans are animals, but it was not human skins. I well I'm We could go off on a tangent here. Nicole (25:06) Sometimes. Catherine LaSota (25:08) Yes. but just to think about how this evolution of the word contain and how it moved more towards object over time, I think is a parallel to human progression further and further away from nature. I mean, look Nicole (25:24) Hmm. Catherine LaSota (25:24) at the what we have, what containers are made out of now. It's not it's plastic, yeah. It's not biodegradable. Nicole (25:29) Yeah. Catherine LaSota (25:33) So that's fascinating to me that you mentioned that. evolution of the word also and how it gets more or more more more like an object. Nicole (25:43) Yeah, yeah, that intransitive verb definition of containing myself, containing yourself, we're gonna see that show up more and more. so if we go back another hundred years to 1828, almost a hundred years, we're looking at contain again, because container is not in the dictionary at that time. But the definition of the verb is to hold as a vessel, as the vessel contains a gallon, hence to have capacity. To be able to hold applied to an empty vessel. Catherine LaSota (26:18) Ooh, to Nicole (26:19) Mm. Catherine LaSota (26:20) have capacity, there's a potential there. It doesn't need to be used t Nicole (26:23) Mm-hmm. Catherine LaSota (26:24) in order to be. I love that. Nicole (26:26) Yeah. I love that. Yeah, yeah. I highlighted that line to have capacity to be able to hold. So just having the Catherine LaSota (26:34) How does that land with you as a as a creative person actually? 'Cause it yeah. Nicole (26:37) Yeah. Well, it connects so well. So it I think it it turns me into a container, right? More so than I would have thought. Like I have capacity to be able to hold, but in order for myself to have that capacity, I also want like a reservoir, an external reservoir to pull from. Whether that's like Yeah, I mean containers as you speak of them in your workshop. I don't want Catherine LaSota (27:06) Yeah. Nicole (27:06) to give away your workshop, but yeah, like the way you talk about the containers that you need around you to be to have the capacity yourself, I think is what I start to imagine. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Catherine LaSota (27:17) Yeah. And no gatekeeping. If you want to mention anything from the workshop, it's fine. Nicole (27:23) Well, I'll leave it to you to mention. But yes. Catherine LaSota (27:24) All right. Nicole (27:26) and also the next definition, I'm curio I'm so curious what you think about this one is to comprehend or to hold within specified limits. Catherine LaSota (27:38) Mm, to comprehend or to hold within specified limits. Well, I'm, you know, just thinking into the root of comprehend also and thinking Nicole (27:48) Mm. Catherine LaSota (27:48) about it's an ability to understand and I think that's not unrelated to more modern definitions that we started with. To be able to separate something to see limits around it so that you can put your focus in on something. makes a lot of sense to me. So that that definition still resonates, I think, and is still connected to how I see it. How about you? Nicole (28:16) Yeah, it I mean again, it makes me think of just like the the if we connect the two, right, to be able to hold, like to be able to hold like multiple truths, multiple realities, like the complex things around you that you need to be able to almost translate, right, in order to comprehend. So it's implies to me a sort of internal translation too of what is coming in externally into your container of your brain. Catherine LaSota (28:51) Again, I think also it comes back to this idea of relationship. Things can Nicole (28:56) Mm. Catherine LaSota (28:56) exist here and I'm holding my hand out a certain distance from my eyes and it's there, but it doesn't mean anything to me unless I can comprehend it. Like it's Nicole (29:04) Yes. Catherine LaSota (29:05) it's like that whole if a tree falls in the forest. Does anybody hear n nobody nobody there? Whatever, you know, does it exist? I don't need to say the whole thing and botch it completely. but yeah, but that i I th what keeps coming up in the back of my mind is and I this is I didn't expect to bring this up, but maybe it's the comprehend word. there are so many different things that exist, so many different stimuli, so many different colors, so many different sounds, so many different energetic waves. And our human body functions so that we can see some of them and process only some of them. Nicole (29:47) Mm. Catherine LaSota (29:47) There's so much more that than we're processing at any given time. And anyone who's done psychedelics knows what I'm talking about. Nicole (29:54) Ha ha ha. Catherine LaSota (29:55) And it's why we're not on psychedelics constantly, because it is too much. It's a it ca we could have a whole psychedelic conversation and I'm happy to, but Nicole (30:02) yeah. Catherine LaSota (30:04) you know, that that idea of comprehend and like what is the container with which we are comprehending. We are again back to our own bodies as containers. And how we receive information and how we process information, I think, is fascinating. Nicole (30:17) Yeah. Yeah. And thinking about that filtering, like the filtering system, like we because I do think, like as someone who is a a fan of psychedelics, like it does kind of change even what you're able to able to, right, to hold when you're not on psychedelics. It it so or anything really, like we can talk about psychedelics, but anything that any course of study, like anything that helps you expand or shift. the way you're able to take in information, what you're able to kind of accept and question and like sort through in your brain without immediately rejecting. Right. So we're like always expanding our capacity to hold. Catherine LaSota (31:01) Yeah, no, I love that. I love that and I love that you use the word capacity. Nicole (31:02) Okay. Hmm. Catherine LaSota (31:05) Yeah. And just it also points to, you know, that's that's true with the psychedelic experience and how some things come back into the non psychedelic reality and how you can the opening of possibilities and also any experience that you have in life Nicole (31:21) Mm. Catherine LaSota (31:22) grows you, stretches you, and opens possibilities so that you can then view something else in a more complete way than maybe you could before. It's something else I talk about. I don't know if I brought it into that particular workshop. I think I may have. but, you know, if you've if you have experience doing something in the past in a job, in a parenting situation, in a in school and you're using certain tools, that's part of your expanded sense of self and expanded like possibilities of how you can approach certain problems and you can then move into other parts of life and you will see other parts of life influenced by whatever past experiences you have. That's why it's impossible for anyone to make the same piece of art. Nicole (32:13) Mm. Catherine LaSota (32:14) I don't care if you're writing a book and somebody else like, somebody else published the same book. No, they didn't. Nicole (32:18) Mm. Catherine LaSota (32:19) That's impossible. Cause we all bring our own however we've shaped our containers through our lives to how we're going to perceive things and how we're going to then interpret Inputs and outputs. Nicole (32:31) Yeah. before we move away from the eighteen twenty eight definition, I do think we have to look at what I'm kind of starting to see is the shadow side of the word container. because Catherine LaSota (32:41) Let's do it. Nicole (32:43) the next definition from eighteen twenty-eight, and we have to like think of the times, but is to hold within limits prescribed, to restrain, to withhold from trespass or disorder. And the example sentences that it gives are the king, the king's person, sorry, the king's person. contains the unruly people from evil occasions. Catherine LaSota (33:05) Mm. Nicole (33:06) And the other example is, fear not, my lord, we can contain ourselves. So implying this kind of containment because authority figure has decided Catherine LaSota (33:17) Right. Nicole (33:17) it is so. Yeah. Catherine LaSota (33:20) Yeah. I mean that That's why we have to build our own, Nicole. That's why Nicole (33:29) Mm, yes. Catherine LaSota (33:30) it because whoever's building the container is putting their values and judgment into it. And other people will do that. I mean, there's a lot of dark human history of containment. So and it's not no one's no one's well, I can't say no one, but rarely I hope. Do we willfully put our own selves into containers that don't suit Well, that I can't I can't say that. We do. We do. And we're t but we're taught that. And Nicole (33:59) Yeah, we do. Yeah. Catherine LaSota (34:02) it it's a it's a matter of unlearning it, I think. Nicole (34:06) Yeah. Yeah. Unlearning the containers that don't fit and rebuilding the ones that do. Because I do think like as we were talking about like lightly with with organizing, right? We do need containers. I don't think you can have a life without them. But we want to make sure that they're the right fit ones. Catherine LaSota (34:25) And maybe we need to re examine them from time. I mean, we definitely need Nicole (34:28) Mm. Catherine LaSota (34:28) to re examine them. We can't have the same containers our whole lives. We can't have, let's be real, the same containers in the history of a nation. Nicole (34:38) Mm-hmm. Catherine LaSota (34:39) Right? Let's look at the United States. We certainly Nicole (34:41) Yeah. Catherine LaSota (34:41) had containers and we still have containers that are not good or they're harmful. And so over time you reassess. With what you need and if the container's still working. Nicole (34:56) Yeah. And that's where I think we come back to that lovely definition, like to be able to hold, to have capacity and like expanding that capacity yet again. okay. All words have a shadow side. They can't be all good. Yeah. Let's Catherine LaSota (35:11) Absolutely. Nicole (35:13) keep going back in time through the etymology. So we're getting closer and closer to the root of this word. and this is my favorite part. This is where it starts to get really fun. So if we keep going backwards, this is also where you can c correct my pronunciation as we get into the Latin words. Yes. Yeah. Catherine LaSota (35:29) I I can I just a sidebar. When I was in high school, I had the most I think Latin teachers are some of the most amazing people. I had a really charismatic one. Shout out to Linda Squire. I think she's still teaching Latin many, many, many years later. Maybe she's retired. I hope so. That was a long time ago. but every year we had a play about Julius Caesar's death, and there would be one side of the stage would do it in English and one side would do it in Latin. And I was the Latin Julius Caesar. So Just saying if I mispronounce anything, I'm sorry, Mrs. Squire. Nicole (36:04) I'm sure she'll forgive you. That sounds like such a fun time though. okay. So if we look at container, again, like coming back to that, which wasn't in the dictionary, in the eighteen hundreds, but in the mid-15th century, we have an agent noun that comes from contain, and it is one who comprises or encompasses. So again, that's kind of cool because it's one who, like it's not that which it's one who comprises or encompasses. and then if we look at contain, we get restrain, control, behave. So to restrain someone, control oneself, behave in a certain way, which comes from the Latin contenere, the transitive to hold together or enclose, which is from the assimilated form of con together and tenere, which is to hold. And this comes from the Proto Indo European root ten, which is to stretch. So let's kinda we can start to break that down. So well was there a part of it that stood out to you? Catherine LaSota (37:12) I was just admiring your Latin pronunciation. That was very Nicole (37:15) Thank you. I that that made me very happy. Catherine LaSota (37:19) good. okay, let's see. Well, there was one part in there you said in the fifteen hundreds that it Nicole (37:25) Mm-hmm. Catherine LaSota (37:26) it sounded like there were there were a lot of punitive connotations I heard in that Nicole (37:34) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Catherine LaSota (37:35) word. And I'm just thinking of historically and and who was using the word and how it was being used. Nicole (37:42) Yeah, yeah. Yes, 'cause the so to repeat that it's to restrain someone, to control oneself or to behave in a certain way. And that was when sorry, to clarify, that was in the thirteen hundreds, Catherine LaSota (37:54) sorry, yeah. Nicole (37:54) no when it came into English. So that's when it first came into the English use. Mm-hmm. Catherine LaSota (38:00) Interesting. Wow, where are you getting this information? This is fantastic. Nicole (38:06) mostly etymology.com and we also have a book that we found on like on like eBay a while ago that's like an etymology book. Yeah, I know. We have a book. I'll put a picture on the on the website. Yeah. Catherine LaSota (38:13) That sounds so mysterious, Nicole. We have a book that we found. Fantastic. Yeah, I guess, yeah, that's I mean again it comes back to a certain judgment of, you know, who's containing and why. And then again, what what is it protecting? Who is it protecting? And Nicole (38:34) Mm-hmm. Catherine LaSota (38:36) one that does this is Are they serving themselves or somebody else as the container? That Nicole (38:43) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Catherine LaSota (38:45) comes to mind. Nicole (38:46) Yeah. The part in the etymology, like as we dig dig back to the root, that fascinates me is we have the tenere, which is to hold, and that comes from the Proto-Indo-European root ten, which is to stretch. So how do you see those two concepts working together in the way you see contain and container? Catherine LaSota (39:13) To hold and to stretch. Well, I kind of love thinking of these two words together actually, because it is to me not rigidity. You can hold something lightly. You can hold it with the capacity to bend and move. It's making me think of water somehow and the flow of it. But Yeah, to hold and to stretch, my mind is going so many places. I'm thinking of I've I'm I'm a I happen to be a human body container that has held to now humans inside of it. And the holding and the stretching that occurred at the same time while they were growing, like that's interesting to think about. The human body Nicole (40:08) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Catherine LaSota (40:09) is a container that contains so many fascinating containers within it. Nicole (40:13) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot happening. And and it makes me too think of the plant we were talking about early on in this conversation. Like when you move it to a new pot, like the the container holds it, but then it stretches beyond its container. Or like we can even be in our containers and stretch to the edges and then stretch beyond and then need to come out and move to another another Catherine LaSota (40:36) Mm-hmm. Nicole (40:36) container. Catherine LaSota (40:38) You can think about that again of, you know, who who who is determining the container and for whose purpose and whose judgment? Because I mean, I'm thinking of bonsai now, I'm thinking of different things with plants, but if you have a plant, and I know there's plants in our home that have outgrown their pots, and you can tell in the way that they're not growing well anymore, or they've stopped, or whatever's happening. And so maybe in the context even of Creative containers, you may have as I said, you need to revisit containers your whole life. But if you've noticed a stagnancy in your work, it might be time to investigate that container because it's harder to see the roots inside of the container. It's enclosed, it's inside the dirt, but you can see what's fruiting from it Nicole (41:22) Mm. Catherine LaSota (41:23) and you can make assessments from there. So yeah, If something is holding more than it's allowing the stretch of the roots, then maybe there's a tipping of a balance. Nicole (41:35) Yeah. I think it's also worth mentioning or fun to mention, exciting to mention. last year one of our guests on this podcast, who's a friend of yours as well, Dr. Kate Henry, we did the word tend, which has the Catherine LaSota (41:51) Mm. Nicole (41:51) same pie root. Ten to stretch. So to tend to something is this has the same route as container. Catherine LaSota (42:00) So to stretch and then to stretch with though, right? Con, right? So Nicole (42:03) Mm-hmm yes, yeah. Catherine LaSota (42:05) so stretching with something egg again I'm circling back to that idea of relationship because the container doesn't it it doesn't mean anything if it's not in existence. It might mean it might be a beautiful object, maybe, okay. But it doesn't serve a purpose unless it's in relationship with. Nicole (42:28) Mm. Catherine LaSota (42:28) So to stretch with is a really is really interesting to me. Can are any of the containers that are around you right now, I mean, these are physical ones. We can think of like, you know, again, like I said, emotional containers are different kinds of containers. But is there any container, for example, on your desk that served its purpose for a while, but then you got, I don't know, too many pens or you wanted a larger water on your desk or you had to change a container out because it wasn't serving a purpose anymore? Nicole (43:00) Well Okay, well I have on my on my the other side of my office, I have like a a dresser that our landlords left here, so we kept it and I use it for drawers for our stationery and paper, and but on top of it I have a bunch of empty candle holders because I've burned it all the way down, but I can't seem to get myself to throw out the holder because it's pretty. Catherine LaSota (43:31) Mm. Nicole (43:32) So that is the nearest example of I can see. There are like five like sitting they're like lined up on the side of my printer. These five empty, like just like Catherine LaSota (43:41) Yeah. Nicole (43:42) wax at the very bottom candle holders. Catherine LaSota (43:44) Well, they still serve a purpose, but they don't serve a purpose as containers anymore. Nicole (43:48) Yeah, they're not containers anymore. They are just pretty vases. I mean, I think it's up to me now, right? This is I think too where the tend kind of comes in, like to tend to a container and that shared root feels so interesting to me. Because now it's up to me, like external of the container, to do take the necessary steps to put them in the freezer, right? To get that extra wax out and to turn them into I could make more candles. I could put flowers in them. Right. They could be a container again, but they require tending in order for that to to come about. Catherine LaSota (44:24) And perhaps the containers of your life are set up in such a way that that's not a priority right now. Nicole (44:29) Yeah, it's it's not, but it is something that's like always in the back of my mind. Like every time Catherine LaSota (44:33) Mm-hmm. Nicole (44:34) I see them, I'm like, I should really take care of these. now might be a good time. There are there's another segment that I want to talk about, which is other words that share the same Proto-Indo-European root. But now I think might be a good time to talk about some of the if you're willing to share, which it seems like you are, some of the creative containers that you bring into your work with clients. Catherine LaSota (44:58) Goodness, sure. well, I mean, the word can be used so so expansively. I guess I'll start with in the in the workshop that you did take, I talk about four different kinds of containers. I talk about physical containers, emotional containers, goal setting containers, and containers that sustain your practice. So when I work with clients, I'm talking about when I talk about physical containers, I mean, we've been talking a lot about physical. containers and objects. they're important in creative practice too. So again, we've talked about the body as a container. I t I work with clients and I I do talk about like the fact that your body is one of your tools. It's an important it is what you have to to to do things in the world no matter what your practice is. So how are you tending to that container? Are you sleeping? Are you resting? Are you getting movement? Are you eating and and drinking well and and and what does your body need to relax and and all of these things. But also The physical containers within which you create include your physical environment. And I work on that with clients too. I work on, you know, the space you sit down. Is it the same space you sit down to do your day job all day and then you sit down at the exact same desk in the exact same container and space to write your book? How's that working? You know? and then these emotional containers. I I I it it's related to the body 'cause I think the body and emotions are connected, but again, our environment is not just a physical environment. It's it's there's an emotional environment and relationships come into play there. So your environment is very much impacted with the people you spend time around. And how are they serving as containers that support or nurture you in your practice in whatever way that means to you? Like do you have people you can talk about your art with? Do you have naysayers around you all the time that make you feel bad about what you're doing. You know, these are all containers. And then I think goal setting containers, you could you could think, you know, there are a lot of people who talk about like, well here's the here's the form that your creativity could take. Let's talk about like shaping your book or something like that or shaping your art series or whatever. I think of it more in terms of getting into those roots of the plant. In the pot, like the the to to set the container for your creative goals, you need to get into the purpose of why you're making something, what's important to it about it to you, and that's gonna keep you moving through a really long project. So getting into your own desires and what are you reacting against? What are you moving towards? And it's a really it's a lot of deep internal work. And then those sustaining containers, I mean, you can think about it metaphorically of like, maybe you have a you maybe you have something in your in your kitchen cabinet, that you don't cook with all that much, but it's held in a particular container in a way that makes it stay fresh, right? Or like Nicole (48:06) Hm. Catherine LaSota (48:06) an olive oil or I don't know, you know, something. There are times that we're not gonna be touching our creative projects and how do we keep the pieces of it alive that we need to have ready when we're ready for them. How do we stay in relationship and connection with our project? So yeah, I mean, I said that's what comes up in the workshop, but it comes up when I coach one on one with people too. That's that's the breadth of it. Nicole (48:32) Mm. Catherine LaSota (48:32) and then I could go off on tangents on all of them. Nicole (48:36) thank you for sharing that. I think it's those are the ones too, like that I see. That's why Reservoir stood out so much to me, because it's like, yeah, you can create these containers that you that are there that are resources. I think resource and like resourcing yourself to create. and also I said we were gonna move into words that cousin words, words that share the Proto-Indo-European root. And among those cousin words is sustain. Catherine LaSota (49:05) yes. I love that. I love Nicole (49:06) Yeah. Catherine LaSota (49:08) that so much. Yes, because I mean I I mentioned keeping something fresh, right? our refrigerator is also a container for things that are perishable, by the way. Nicole (49:18) Yeah. Catherine LaSota (49:20) Right? sustain also I I can't help but think about and this is not particularly the way it's being used, I guess, but as a musician and w sustaining a note and the The well no, it is it is related. If you're a singer and which I have I that is also part of my practice, there is a sustaining that requires a certain capacity in the container inside your body with your lungs, your diaphragm, and like this is how you sustain. You need the breath control, you need the container for that. And you work on Nicole (49:53) Yeah. Catherine LaSota (49:53) that container. Nicole (49:55) Yeah. Expand your capacity. Catherine LaSota (49:56) That's right. Nicole (49:59) that's what I keep going back to. so other cousin words are all of these kind of tane words, right? You've got contain, maintain, entertain, sustain, as we said. Yeah. What do you th Hmm, sorry, tongue tied. How do you see the connection with entertain? Catherine LaSota (50:18) I I don't know, I just I I personally I love hosting things. So Nicole (50:24) Yeah. Catherine LaSota (50:24) so that just was a fun word to hear. But Nicole (50:27) Yeah. Catherine LaSota (50:27) entertain, now I want to think about the root of enter and I'm gonna start discussing that whole word. entertain well entertain can be in a performance type sense, but entertain can also be to decide you're going to give something attention. Nicole (50:47) Hm. Yeah. Yeah. Catherine LaSota (50:48) Right? So I will entertain the idea. And I I I definitely see a relationship there again, back to the idea of there's just so many possibilities with creativity. What are you going to say no to and what are you going to say yes to? What are you going to entertain? What are Nicole (51:06) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Catherine LaSota (51:09) you going to let take up real estate in your thinking and your mind and whose voices are in there? Nicole (51:16) Hm, yeah. Catherine LaSota (51:16) is also something I talk a lot about a lot actually in my other workshops. Nicole (51:19) Yeah. there are just two other cousin words that I wanna call out that our researcher brought up is detention and also temple. Catherine LaSota (51:33) Temple? Nicole (51:34) Mm-hmm. Catherine LaSota (51:35) How is that a c talk to me about the relationship the cousin relationship? Nicole (51:41) my gosh, hold on. Okay, so it's also from a root sense of stretched. So a stretched, marked out, or sacred space. It's also another one kind of in that vein is tension. and retain. Yeah, that's that's what I that's the that's the depth I have on temple. Yeah. Mmm, yes. Catherine LaSota (52:02) I'm loving all of these as writing prompts, by the way. This is really fantastic. W what's what's landing with you there? I feel like I've been talking Nicole (52:12) Yeah. Catherine LaSota (52:12) it a a a bunch, but I wanna hear what you say about temple or restrain. Nicole (52:18) Well, I think temple I like the same way that I like reservoir, which I keep bringing up because I love of it love it as this like resource. But a temple, if I think of it in the sense of creative containers, right, is like I'm not ema even imagining a physical temple. I'm imagining like a place that I like an internal place that I am curating and tending to and It's where like meditations take place. It's where ritual takes place. It's where I create the environment, you know, in which again I can expand my capacity, in which I can become more able to hold different things, varied things. and all of that, all of that. I mean, I think it feeds everything in my life, but I think it especially feeds creativity and new ideas and manifestations and, you know, just like what I'm able to bring about in the world by tending to tending to something and doing ritual and having, you know, repetitions in my life. Catherine LaSota (53:23) Yeah, thank you for mentioning ritual there. That Nicole (53:25) Mm. Catherine LaSota (53:26) that's absolutely something else that I bring in with the those emotional containers as I see them. There's spiritual container, emotional container. and even a ritual being a container itself, right? if there's a start and an end and it marks something and what is the process in between, like containers maybe don't need to be physical objects, right? A ritual is an action sometimes. A ritual It can be also there's the setting up an altar for any number of things. That's a container. It and it can involve virtual or not. so yeah. Nicole (54:06) Yeah. Well, and in the world that you and I are both in of like online entrepreneurship and teaching, I think a lot of people in that space use the word container to talk about like the space that they create and the offer that they create and the even the curriculum or the syllabus of what they've created. And so I think that fits ritual more so, you know, like there's a beginning and an end and all these steps in between in order to reach Like our intended outcome. And that itself Catherine LaSota (54:35) Yeah. Nicole (54:36) is a container. Catherine LaSota (54:37) Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's is and there's an there's something happening there and it this is probably a cousin word somehow, I'm thinking. Intent, maybe. Intention? It should be. let's decide it is. i Nicole (54:43) Hmm. Hmm. It seems like it should be, yeah. Yeah. Catherine LaSota (54:52) intention when you talk about this world of creative entrepreneurship and and people's offerings and you enter into a container there's a certain intention that you're coming into. I'm coming to this container because I want to learn XYZ or get help with whatever. And that's also something that happens with our creative practice. There is this idea of virtual when we enter, I think, when we enter into this space of as much as we integrate our I hope, we integrate our creativity into all aspects of our lives in some way, if we're doing focused work. There is an intent of saying, like, I'm going to enter this space, what is my ritual for entering this space to work on this thing? And then how do I exit this space? and that again, it's not a physical container, but it's a container. Nicole (55:41) Hm, yeah. I love the word intention there. I yeah, I think even if we think about physical containers, they ha like we have an intention with them. I feel like intention is an important, a very important part of container. Catherine LaSota (55:58) Yeah, you know what? And sometimes when containers get repurposed, it does a little funny thing in the brain that can be fun because it's not the original intention, right? Nicole (56:08) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Catherine LaSota (56:09) I'm I think in I think when I was in college, somehow we dragged like an old like a a discarded toilet into the dorm room because you make weird art shit when you're in college and turned it into was it a planter or just I poured plaster into it. I did like I I it was no longer the container. for refuse than it once was. It was something else. And that's why it was interesting because well, Nicole (56:29) Mm-hmm. Catherine LaSota (56:33) I could argue how interesting it was now. But it was, you know, when we when we have different intent. When we take a container Nicole (56:39) Mm. Catherine LaSota (56:40) and r subvert its to intent. Nicole (56:42) Ooh, yeah, one of my favorite Airbnbs that I ever stayed in was in Maryland. I was driving up to visit my parents. and they had like a a baby grand piano that was no longer a working piano, but had all of the like guts had been taken out and hung on the wall. And then in the piano, well, I guess it still was a container. Not for music though, but they put plants in it. So it's all these like plants like growing out. of different parts of this piano and I thought it was so cool. Catherine LaSota (57:14) Yeah. Nicole (57:15) Yeah. Awesome. okay, so the last thing we're gonna do as we start to wrap up is look at some quotes and just chat about how we feel about them. Catherine LaSota (57:26) All right, let's go. Hmm. Nicole (57:28) okay. So the first one is from Florida Scott Maxwell, who was a playwright, an author, and a psychologist. Who lived from eighteen eighty three to nineteen seventy nine, and the quote is Life does not accommodate you, it shatters you. It is meant to, and it couldn't do it better. Every seed destroys its container, or else there would be no fruition. Catherine LaSota (57:56) Mm. Wow. I just got a really amazing tarot deck that came out a couple of months ago, by Lindsay Mack and Chelsea Granger. And they're called Soul Tarot. And there are so many images on those cards where it's a seed. and then it's slowly busting open over the course of I think mostly the Pentacles cards. But that idea of destroying the container, like How long does a container serve its purpose and is part of its purpose to no longer be at a certain point? It's much it's also like, I think of raising children and I hope I hope someday they're self sufficient and I don't need to be the container that I am now. I'll still exist. I won't explode like a seed pod, hopefully. but you know, there's There's like, yeah, what is the duration of time for a container? Nicole (59:03) Well, I'm thinking of it 'cause the word destroys could feel negative, right? But thinking of it as part of like the decomposition process. A container, the sea composting, yeah. So Catherine LaSota (59:12) Composting Nicole (59:15) the the con seed pod is exploded, but it doesn't disappear. It like goes into the ground, becomes something else, something nourishing. Catherine LaSota (59:23) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So a container can re be repurposed, but maybe in a new form. Nicole (59:32) Another one, Wallace Stevens, so American modernist poet, Pulzer Prize winner, he said, Human nature is like water, it takes the shape of its container. Catherine LaSota (59:46) Mm. There's that water coming Nicole (59:48) Uh-huh. Catherine LaSota (59:49) back into the conversation. Nicole (59:51) Yeah. Catherine LaSota (59:53) That's that's thinking I don't know, do you when you hear that, do you think more about what the water is doing or what the container is is that's holding the water? Nicole (1:00:06) Hmm. Well, the quote feels a little cynical to me. I d Catherine LaSota (1:00:10) Hmm. Nicole (1:00:12) not s I mean it's practical, I guess. But yeah, I think more about the container. Like what is the container that we're creating as a society? Like and what does that do to the humans who live within it? That's where my brain went. Catherine LaSota (1:00:29) But what if the container could have a leak? Nicole (1:00:31) Y yeah. As most containers eventually do. Catherine LaSota (1:00:38) We don't need to talk about the reflecting poll right now, do we? Nicole (1:00:40) Yeah, I know. Catherine LaSota (1:00:43) Timely timely mention for hopefully an evergreen episode. Nicole (1:00:50) well, it might be worth noting that he worked most of his life as an insurance executive, so I think there was a bit of I don't know why my brain's assuming there's cynicism there. I don't know, where did your where did your mind go with it? Like did you did you go to the the faults of society or did it go somewhere else? Catherine LaSota (1:01:11) I I see it as a as I don't know if warning is the right word, but just like Nicole (1:01:17) Mm. Catherine LaSota (1:01:17) it's advice in a way. It's I don't it doesn't have to be cynical. I don't know what his intent directly was with it, but it but it's just something to notice. And I think it does come back to something else that I'd said about, you know, the people who are around you are going to be a container of sorts and you will shape yourself in accordance to Nicole (1:01:38) Yeah. Catherine LaSota (1:01:39) those relationships. Nicole (1:01:40) Yeah. So yes, I love that you brought it there because we are in control ultimately of the containers we build, or we have some control over some of the containers. yeah, and that feels important. Okay, last one because I really like this quote. this is from Glenn Doman, who is an American physical therapist, an educator, founder of the Institutes for Achievement of Human Potential. Known for controversial early childhood development methods. So I actually don't know much about this person. I liked the quote, but n well Catherine LaSota (1:02:08) my. Nicole (1:02:11) let's take that with a grain of salt. But the human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold. Catherine LaSota (1:02:24) Ooh, okay. I'm I can I can see this person's point and also I might push back on it Nicole (1:02:29) Yes. Catherine LaSota (1:02:33) because I think we can overwhelm ourselves. Nicole (1:02:35) Okay, yes. Catherine LaSota (1:02:38) And maybe it can hold. There I I speak as like somebody who in her own past and somebody who works with a lot of people who just take on more and more and take in more and more because they they can Nicole (1:02:54) Mm. Catherine LaSota (1:02:56) but then maybe the rest of their container breaks down, you know? What do you think? Nicole (1:03:00) Yeah, yeah. No, I see that. Yeah. I think when I read it, the reason I was fond of it is because I s like ki it takes me back to our conversation earlier where it's like the more you learn psychedelics, schools of thought, right, the more you kinda take in the more capacity you have to like hold. So I saw it less as like stacking things onto each other and overwhelm, which it could go that way as well. I see that. But also just saw it as like, you know, like when you put Catherine LaSota (1:03:33) Yeah. Nicole (1:03:33) like a shoe stretcher in a shoe and then steam it. Yeah. Please. Catherine LaSota (1:03:36) Let's let's say both things can be true here because if I if I may, I will. You don't have to agree with me. But thinking in terms of you know, I I have I have two children, you have one child, at least in my experience, I go, I really love this child and then you think, How could I love more? And then you have another child or I say Nicole (1:03:55) Mm. Catherine LaSota (1:03:55) you I I have another child and I'm like, Well, I love them both and they say to me sometimes, Who do you love more? I'm like, I d it's not. It's just the love just ke it expands. So that that is true, that is that expansion, like more can keep getting added in, but it also doesn't mean that my life got harder when I had to hold space Nicole (1:04:16) Yeah. Catherine LaSota (1:04:16) for for these things. That, you know, they can be they can be more complicated than just good or or c or challenging. Nicole (1:04:26) Yeah. No, thank you for sharing that. That I am with you. It holds both. okay, Catherine LaSota (1:04:31) Ha ha ha Nicole (1:04:33) let's wrap up. I'm just gonna ask a few rapid fire questions, Catherine LaSota (1:04:36) Okay. Nicole (1:04:37) and then we'll close out. is container the word sweet or salty? Catherine LaSota (1:04:45) I was an anticipating this question. I was thinking about Nicole (1:04:47) Yeah Catherine LaSota (1:04:48) this and when I first was thinking about it I thought I was going to say salty for some reason or n and then I was like, Why would I salty seems harsh. So i in the way that I think of it and the way I think that we can build our own, I would say sweet because they're supportive and I I'm using that connotation of sweet. But in some of the definitions we've talked about and some of the restraining and the judgment and the things I think those could be salty. Nicole (1:05:16) Yeah. Should it be whispered or shouted? Catherine LaSota (1:05:24) Whispered. Yeah. Nicole (1:05:25) Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I think that makes a lot of sense given how we've talked about how they're always helping in the background containers, even though we're not always thinking consciously about them. Catherine LaSota (1:05:36) And they're flexible and they change and they bend. Nicole (1:05:38) Hm, yeah. So if the listener were to leave with your definition of the word container, the one you want them to carry, I know. Big question. Catherine LaSota (1:05:48) my goodness. Nicole (1:05:50) Well, and we could do that. Or another way is like what what do you want someone to take from this conversation about containers? Catherine LaSota (1:05:59) I think that something I would ask a listener to hope a listener would take is that a container can be a supportive and helpful thing or action. And it tends to be that more if you have an awareness and intention with how that container is created. Nicole (1:06:27) Perfect. Thank you. Okay, finally, where can they learn more about you and your work, Catherine? Catherine LaSota (1:06:34) I would love to meet everybody out there who's curious about containers so we can talk about it some more. My website's the best place. It's Katherine Lasoda dot com. I do have a podcast that goes into long breaks between seasons, but it is coming back called Feed the Art and that's about nourishing your creative practice. so that's the best way. If you go to my website, I have a weekly ish newsletter that I love writing and sharing stories in. So I would encourage anyone to sign up to that. And you can do that via my website or I can give links for the show notes, whatever is easy. Nicole (1:07:11) Amazing. Yeah, we will put all those links in the show notes for easy access. Thank you so much, Catherine. This was lovely. Catherine LaSota (1:07:18) Thank you, Nicole. It's always so, so fun to talk with you. And this has been a blast. Thank you so much.