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365. Why You Can't Trust That Everything Will Be Okay After Divorce (Yet) · Dear Divorce Diary: A Fresh Approach To Healing Grief & Building A Life Of Confidence After Divorce

0:00
SPEAKER_01: All right, darlings, today we are talking about why it is so freaking hard to trust that everything is gonna be okay.
0:08
SPEAKER_01: And I am going to say that this episode is an episode to revisit quarterly.
0:19
SPEAKER_01: If life is a video game, which I like to think that it is, I happen to love video games, specifically the fun ones like Mario, not the scary, terrifying ones, but if life is a video game, then every time you get to the next level, there's a new challenge.
0:37
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and some boards you have to practice a lot before you finally pass them.
0:44
SPEAKER_01: And that is what it is, right?
0:45
SPEAKER_01: And then while you're playing the video game, sometimes it's super fun and easy and things are going smoothly, and sometimes things are harder and you have to work at it a bit.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: So today's episode, Why is it so hard to trust that everything is going to be okay, is something that we automatically will revisit because there's always more in life.
1:04
SPEAKER_01: There's always new places to aspire to.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: There's always new goals to dream up, new dreams to dream, new things to reach for.
1:17
SPEAKER_01: And very, very often, I wonder if you ladies will relate to this, we sort of think of life as, well, when I have this, then I'll be good.
1:26
SPEAKER_01: When I'm through this divorce, then my life will be fine.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: When I have this much money, then I'll be fine.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: When I have this relationship, then I'll be fine.
1:32
SPEAKER_01: When I, when my kid is XYZ, then I'll be fine.
1:35
SPEAKER_01: When, when, when, when, when, then, then, then, then, then.
1:37
SPEAKER_01: And all of that is garbage.
1:39
SPEAKER_01: It's not completely untrue, but we have those things and then we want the next batch of things.
1:45
SPEAKER_01: And so we have to become in on the joke that trusting that everything is going to be okay is gonna come up over and over and over again with each new challenge or each new aspirational thing we are reaching for.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: Fair.
2:04
SPEAKER_01: Hi, love.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Dear Divorce Diary, the podcast helping divorcees go beyond talk therapy to process your grief, find the healing you crave, and build back your confidence.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Don Wiggins, a therapist, coach, integrative healer, and your say.
2:22
SPEAKER_01: Join me for a fresh approach to healing grief and building your confidence after divorce.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: So let's unpack a handful of questions.
2:38
SPEAKER_01: What does everything's okay actually mean to us, to you?
2:44
SPEAKER_01: What does that mean for you?
2:46
SPEAKER_01: Now or before?
2:49
SPEAKER_01: Both.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: Even better.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: Yes, even better.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, like in your answer, explain why it was what it was before and why it is what it is now.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so this was like my moment is when it's like before for me, it meant that something was going on with everybody else.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: Does it make sense?
3:12
SPEAKER_00: So, like if he could just get his shit together, if we could just work out the co-parenting plan, if my daughter could just get through this class, if you know, there were all of these parameters that I put on other people.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: And I think what has switched is again understanding that all of that shit is going to continue to happen throughout my life.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: There's always gonna be stuff that happens.
3:35
SPEAKER_00: So I'm the one that needs to figure out how to adjust.
3:38
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like being calm in the presence of a storm, right?
3:41
SPEAKER_00: Like the storms never stop.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: So you have to figure out a way to be able to calm yourself in the presence of so much chaos.
3:47
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's where women struggle, and that's the lie we tell ourselves that the the lie is that everything someday will all be okay.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: And that's all be okay.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: That is the lie.
3:58
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
3:59
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
4:00
unknown: Yeah.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:03
SPEAKER_01: I was that quote that you just quoted, I was gonna say the same thing.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: Fun fact I have a massive magnet collection, like an obscene amount of magnets.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: Like I can't even begin to tell you how many.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: Uh, my now husband made me a magnet board when I was 21 to put all my magnets on because I moved and I didn't have a refrigerator.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: Anyways, long story longer, I've been collecting magnets for a very long time.
4:28
SPEAKER_01: And I have one that said peace is not the absence of chaos or storms.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: It is the capacity to feel peaceful amidst the chaos or the storm.
4:40
SPEAKER_01: And I clearly did not fully understand that then, but it was aspirational for me back then.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: Aspirational.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: Uh and I remember on my 40th birthday, which is six years ago now, I guess.
4:54
SPEAKER_01: We had hiked the Grand Canyon for my birthday.
4:57
SPEAKER_01: So epic, dead, dead smack in COVID.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: And I remember journaling that night and really recognizing maybe for the first time this intensely, this very intensely, that there is no there.
5:13
SPEAKER_01: There's no there.
5:14
SPEAKER_01: Like I had been operating under these assumptions that if I was good enough and I was hardworking enough, and I was good enough, that eventually it would get peaceful.
5:28
SPEAKER_01: And like that is not a thing.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: There are moments of peace in every day.
5:34
SPEAKER_01: There are moments of peace all the time.
5:36
SPEAKER_01: And life is always going to life.
5:39
SPEAKER_01: And it's funny, when we were in retreat a few weeks ago, I remember some of the women saying, like, hearing our coaches talk about what it is to navigate conflict today, does it terrify you that they still have to deal with life?
5:52
SPEAKER_01: Like that they're still quote unquote, like do you know, walking this journey of healing or whatever we call it, right?
6:00
SPEAKER_01: Because there's always a new next thing.
6:05
SPEAKER_01: What does everything's gonna be okay mean to you, Joy?
6:09
SPEAKER_02: Then and now I think then I was more focused on my children.
6:16
SPEAKER_02: Everything's gonna be okay if I can just get if I can just get through this without without them damaged, uh, them having dam you know too damaged.
6:27
SPEAKER_02: Um and someone told me at the time that was so powerful, but like you can't save them from their testimony.
6:36
SPEAKER_02: But like back then I couldn't, I couldn't, like I couldn't see myself.
6:42
SPEAKER_02: So I focused so much on them that I didn't really have a plan or even a vision for me to be okay.
6:52
SPEAKER_02: There wasn't, oh, um, if I can just get myself centered, it I just couldn't see it.
7:00
SPEAKER_02: I couldn't see anything.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: And isn't that fascinating?
7:04
SPEAKER_01: Because when moms aren't okay, kids can't be okay.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: Right.
7:08
SPEAKER_02: But I couldn't like, yeah.
7:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because of nervous system co-regulation, but I want our listeners to really hear that.
7:14
SPEAKER_01: If mom's not okay, especially young children, but I'm gonna argue that even like teens and adult children are still going to be affected by mom's dysregulation.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: But young kids, especially, right?
7:28
SPEAKER_01: Like kids who are home and are dependent on living at home, when mom is not okay, kids are not okay.
7:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
7:36
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
7:37
SPEAKER_00: I would agree with that, and I would echo the same with teenagers and young adults because I deal with so many clients that still dealt with issues up into their 20s with their parents, you know, that were still like considered real wounds, like real wounds.
7:50
SPEAKER_00: They still were creating exiled parts even in their 20s with parents, right?
7:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:57
SPEAKER_00: But that's that codependent shit, right?
7:59
SPEAKER_00: Like, and that's what I was talking about in the beginning.
8:01
SPEAKER_00: It's like if my daughter's okay, if he can just be okay and settled, if I like everything that I did relied on other people being okay, and I was so fucking codependent, so codependent on a number of people in my life.
8:16
SPEAKER_01: That is like a a lay person's way of relating to codependency, right?
8:19
SPEAKER_01: Is I need you to be okay in order for me to be okay.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: If you're not okay, I'm not okay.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that is a lay way of seeing it.
8:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:29
SPEAKER_01: What are things that you either see our clients trying to control when they don't feel safe, or things that even we still try to control when we don't feel safe?
8:41
SPEAKER_01: I definitely watch women try to control their exes.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: Still that's important.
8:48
SPEAKER_01: Fascinating.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:51
SPEAKER_00: And that's why for women out there, when they tell me that they have a problem with things that they do at the ex's house, it's like, okay, is this safety versus control?
8:58
SPEAKER_00: Right.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: Nine times out of ten, it's control.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: It has nothing to do with our children's safety.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: It's just that they don't like who the ex is exposing them to, or that new women are around, or that XYZ is going on.
9:08
SPEAKER_00: Has nothing to do really with safety.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: It's more about controlling the environment.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: So physical safety versus emotional safety, though, right?
9:15
SPEAKER_01: You're talking about physical safety.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
9:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
9:20
SPEAKER_02: From I very much relate to that because we, you know, we set up a visitation plan and everything, and I tried to control what he did while he had them.
9:28
SPEAKER_02: And so what did you eat?
9:30
SPEAKER_02: What did you where did you do?
9:34
SPEAKER_02: How did you do it?
9:35
SPEAKER_02: What do you write?
9:35
SPEAKER_02: And then, oh, you that was too much screen time or that was too much junk food or whatever.
9:41
SPEAKER_02: And I like I let them have screen time and I let them have junk food, but it was wrong for him to do it because then that was you know what I mean, like yeah, because you can control the amount for sure.
9:53
SPEAKER_02: Right.
9:54
SPEAKER_02: It was like a definitely control.
9:56
SPEAKER_02: And then when they were gone, I controlled my home.
9:58
SPEAKER_02: And so like it was very much I controlled everything that way.
10:03
SPEAKER_02: When they got home, everything you know what I mean?
10:05
SPEAKER_02: It was very much um everything had its place, time.
10:09
SPEAKER_02: And if you know me at all, that's not my core.
10:12
SPEAKER_01: You bring up a really good point.
10:14
SPEAKER_01: How does hypervigilance sometimes disguise itself as responsibility?
10:19
SPEAKER_01: I think women really lean into that one in a post-war situation, right?
10:24
SPEAKER_01: I'm the only adult here, I'm the responsible one, I'm the one who cares.
10:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and it's really hypervigilance, right?
10:31
SPEAKER_01: It's it's Tiffany, what would you say is that hypervigilance and responsibility is actually helping women numb or avoid what deeper vulnerable thing is it helping them avoid?
10:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because they don't want to feel the thing under the thing, and it's easier to just keep scanning to protect themselves and give them this false sense of security when I'm gonna be honest, my hypervigilance never prevented me from actually getting hurt.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: Like it just didn't.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: You know?
11:00
SPEAKER_00: Like I could watch the room, I could scan and scan and scan.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: However, ladies, here's the second part of this your hypervigilance can tell you this is a dangerous person, quote unquote.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: Or this guy is way too much like your ex.
11:10
SPEAKER_00: And until you actually heal that familiarity pattern, you're still going to continue to reach for the thing.
11:16
SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, because I I don't think people really understand this next piece, right?
11:21
SPEAKER_01: The wound lives inside of you.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: And then you find things in your environment to act out the wound with, right?
11:28
SPEAKER_01: So you can control all you want outside of you, but the wound is inside of you.
11:33
SPEAKER_01: So people can't, it's really hard to wrap your mind around that until you have felt the wound shift and release, and then you're living the exact same life with the exact same players, but something doesn't affect you the same way anymore.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: And you're like, oh, I was projecting that wound onto the screen of my current life.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, hypervigilance is a it's a tool we use, being hyper responsible.
12:01
SPEAKER_01: It's a tool where it feels like it's helping us cope, but it's of helping us avoid the thing under the thing, right?
12:07
SPEAKER_01: Which is uncertainty, insecurity.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: What other words?
12:12
SPEAKER_00: Self-trust, absolutely.
12:14
SPEAKER_03: Like yeah, for sure, right?
12:16
SPEAKER_00: Like all those things that you feel like you're protecting yourself from, and but never addressing the core wound underneath.
12:24
SPEAKER_00: And you know, there were several people that came into my life after the fact, like I had said, that were disguised as different people, but underneath the same wounds, the same trauma that I kept being attracted to and people, you know, they all had the same story.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: They were, you know, X, Y, Z.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: It was weird the similarities that I saw in my ex between people that I try to date afterwards.
12:47
SPEAKER_00: And how I kept, it's intoxicating that draw that that kind of goes along with that.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: Until you actually heal the thing that's underneath, you're gonna still try to heal whatever it is through other people until you're ready to do it yourself, right?
13:01
SPEAKER_01: Well, right, because underneath there, there are core wounds around uncertainty or around danger, around vulnerability, right?
13:06
SPEAKER_01: These core wounds that I can't, I can't tolerate uncertainty.
13:11
SPEAKER_01: I can't tolerate, I don't know, feel but on the same hand, you're you're like attracting things that are creating instability and insecurity and uncertainty and danger, right?
13:21
SPEAKER_01: It's wild that repetition compulsion we do.
13:25
SPEAKER_01: So uncertainty feels so dangerous to us, but it is the thing we need to make peace with, right?
13:31
SPEAKER_01: That life is a wild ride and it is full of uncertainty, and getting comfortable with that is the mission.
13:40
SPEAKER_02: I'd love you, uh well, Don, I would love you to explain the science behind what happens in the nervous system when uncertainty feels dangerous, like when it feels dangerous.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: When it feels dangerous.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: So that is the piece that we are looking to re-program because the nervous system is programmed based on your exposure, your genetics, your exposure in utero in your first few years of life.
14:06
SPEAKER_01: So your um HPA access, if that's a familiar um phrase, right?
14:13
SPEAKER_01: Your hypothalamus pituitary adrenal access, the way that your nervous system is wired or primed, uh first begins with genetics and then your lived experience as a very young human.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: And so when there is um buckets of uncertainty with not enough maybe parenting or supervision or guidance or coaching or training up, you know, place to process or nurture, when there's disproportionate amounts of fear, stress, uh, maybe you've heard of the adverse childhood experiences scale, right?
14:48
SPEAKER_01: When when a child can score highly on the ACES scale, uh then the brain map gets primed that uncertainty is dangerous.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: And until we reshape how our nervous system responds to uncertainty and can tease that out from actual danger, right?
15:07
SPEAKER_01: Because as a very young person, danger and uncertainty are all blended together.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes when things are uncertain, they're they can be dangerous.
15:17
SPEAKER_01: But once you have lived experience, you're able to discern, right?
15:22
SPEAKER_01: Even if there's danger, I can keep myself safe.
15:25
SPEAKER_01: Even if there's danger, I can call for help.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: Even if there's danger, I can take some action.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: But when kids aren't resourced because their feet can't hit the pedals, they don't have jobs, they can't reach the doorknob.
15:37
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
15:38
SPEAKER_01: They're helpless, truly helpless as a young person.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: And so then that frames, you know, us uh feeling often very, very helpless in the face of uncertainty or risk or threat as adults.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: And so it really is that process of reprogramming.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: Hey, this person may get mad at me, but that doesn't mean I'm in danger.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: Hey, this person may make a dangerous choice, but that doesn't mean I'm in danger.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: Hey, you know, something dangerous may be unfolding, but I can leave or I can call the police or I can do, you know, any number of infinite things to create safety or get on a path to safety.
16:14
SPEAKER_02: So how would you oh sorry, uh uh go ahead.
16:18
SPEAKER_02: So a question, this leads me to a different question, but like how would you discern what's your intuition versus your anxiety?
16:27
SPEAKER_01: I think women have such a hard time with that, and I think you would both endorse that.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: But intuition is not panic.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: Panic is panic.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: Intuition is more of a whisper, a conviction, or a nudge, a steady nudge.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: It comes from your gut, from your instinct, from your wise self, from your higher power.
16:55
SPEAKER_01: Whereas panic and shame are things about failure and um fear.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: And while your intuition may be warning you about dangerous things, I don't believe that our wise mind or our higher power intends to use panic as a way to get our attention.
17:16
SPEAKER_01: I think it gets our attention through messages and wisdom and insight and instincts.
17:23
SPEAKER_01: And when we're panicking, it's actually blocking the wisdom and the and the intuition.
17:30
SPEAKER_01: So someone who's used to having chronic anxiety or a panic disorder, that shit is blocking your wisdom and your intuition.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: And you are not meant to live with chronic anxiety or chronic panic.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: There is a solution and there is recovery for that.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: But when your amygdala is hijacked, right?
17:49
SPEAKER_01: That part of your brain that lives in your limbic system that responds to fight, flight, freeze, fawn, you're it's lower in your brainstem.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: And then your top brain, which is literally up here in the top of your noggin, which is what's responsible for like executive function and higher decision making and all of that, right?
18:08
SPEAKER_01: When all of that energy drops into your brainstem, into your limbic system, your top brain is not functioning as well.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: So that's even just your smart brain versus your lizard brain.
18:17
SPEAKER_01: But then intuition is something wholly unto itself, which is more energetic, essence, spiritual.
18:26
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, what would you ladies call it?
18:27
SPEAKER_01: Intuition.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's more that sense of feeling in your gut where you just can feel that pool and know.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, and a lot of times what I've been doing now with clients is I've been taking them through like a decision-making framework based on parts.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: So it'll take their main managers.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: And the managers will then, it's like, here's the decision, right?
19:40
SPEAKER_00: And here's how you know if your people pleaser is talking, this is what it would look like when you're making decisions.
19:46
SPEAKER_00: If your fixer is talking, this is how it would look like.
19:48
SPEAKER_00: So it's helping them start to at least discern and figure out when I am truly in self to make a good choice versus when are other parts of me starting to, yeah.
19:57
SPEAKER_01: That has been on my mind all weekend.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: You are an MFing genius because all weekend I've been sitting with people are confusing their managers for self.
20:07
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: Well, now I'm picking it apart.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: So the people who I know that are struggling with decisions, there's a framework.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm sending it to them, and it's telling them exactly what their parts are saying, or exactly what the decision would look like, or what that inner talk looks like when it's coming from a part and not self.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: Self.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
20:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: Because then you can have a little cheat sheet with you when you're going through it and you know what the voice of that manager part sounds like and you can discern it from self.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
20:38
SPEAKER_01: Because intuition is going to come from self or wise mind.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: But I hear people say things like, I don't think I'm activated, or I don't think I'm blended, or I think I'm calm.
20:49
SPEAKER_01: But managers can present as calm that it calm is not the same as self, right?
20:56
SPEAKER_01: A well-regulated nervous system doesn't mean it's calm all the time.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: It means it has elasticity, it has the capacity for activation and deactivation.
21:08
SPEAKER_03: It's elastic.
21:09
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
21:11
SPEAKER_02: I would love to know what our listeners can pinpoint or like what can they look for?
21:19
SPEAKER_02: What does what does safety actually feel like inside the body?
21:23
SPEAKER_01: I would argue that most women going through divorce do not have a lot of familiarity with safety in the body or in the nervous system.
21:32
SPEAKER_01: That there has been a lot more bracing than there has been relaxation.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: So I think most women who are going through divorce have some history of attachment I hate to say trauma, but like attachment dysfunction.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: And have been using a lot of coping skills for most of their life without realizing it.
21:54
SPEAKER_01: And that's how we got here.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:56
SPEAKER_01: And so they're used to using things like alcohol or television.
22:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, like how many years did I have to fall asleep with the TV on or have the TV playing in the background in order to feel a sense of well-being?
22:12
SPEAKER_01: Uh, or using a pharmaceutical or alcohol or THC or something in order to relax.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: Any exactly, right?
22:22
SPEAKER_01: Attention, name it.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: So none of that is a felt sense of safety.
22:26
SPEAKER_01: It's like a felt sense of maybe faux relaxation, right?
22:32
SPEAKER_01: Numbing.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: It's numbing.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: And so the goal in us working together is to be able to walk you across that bridge from that, you know, historical need, dependence on something outside of you to create relaxation, for you to be able to cross this bridge with us through this length of time.
22:49
SPEAKER_01: And that's why our signature program is so long, right?
22:52
SPEAKER_01: Because this is not something you could do in one-on-one therapy.
22:56
SPEAKER_01: It's not something you could do with pharmaceuticals.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: It's not like those things all have their place.
23:00
SPEAKER_01: I'm not, we're not anti those things, right?
23:02
SPEAKER_01: But it's a comprehensive journey to go from I've had to rely on things to numb or quiet the noise in order to actually feel safe in my body.
23:12
SPEAKER_01: Uh, that is a layered approach that takes, I would argue, being in relationship, I don't mean with men.
23:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean relationships with people, ideally safe women at first.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: And to be able to rehab that sort of nervous system response because safety feels like I can close my eyes and not worry that there's a monster under my bed without being medicated or numbed or I don't know, name a thing.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: To me, it's being able to like tolerate stillness.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: You know, like I know when women have done such a good job when they're saying, hey, like I read a book, I'm like, whoa, because that takes a lot of like, yeah, you can't really numb and read.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: Like you have to be very present in your brain and mind.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: So I don't really consider that any type of firefighter behavior.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: But it's like when women can tolerate stillness, you know, when you can sit in a room by yourself and you're not drinking, you're not watching TV, you're not on your phone, and you can just be with yourself and you don't, you don't have a fear anymore of the things that come into your mind.
24:20
SPEAKER_00: You know, your thoughts don't scare you anymore.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: It's like if they do, it's like we're just curious about them and then we they pop in and out.
24:27
SPEAKER_00: It's not like it results in a rabbit hole or texting him or texting somebody to rescue you, right?
24:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, that to me is is a big marker of like, damn, like this this person's moving through it in a really positive way.
24:43
SPEAKER_01: So, Tiffany, how many women would you say confuse disassociation with safety?
24:51
SPEAKER_00: I think dissociation is safety for a lot of women in the beginning.
24:55
SPEAKER_00: It was very safe for me for a a lot of years, right?
24:58
SPEAKER_00: Um I think what I would prompt you with is the difference is what behaviors or thoughts are you engaging in while you're dissociating?
25:11
SPEAKER_00: So, in other words, I drank a lot, I partied a lot, I went out and did my thing.
25:18
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't present while I was doing that.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: I was engaging in very self-destructive behavior, and it was a way for me to numb and protect myself so I didn't feel it.
25:26
SPEAKER_00: So I would ask to the women, you know, what are you pairing your dissociation and checking out?
25:31
SPEAKER_00: I worked a lot, I cleaned a lot, uh, I worked a lot.
25:36
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: I worked a lot.
25:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:38
SPEAKER_01: So, but that looks, it looks, I don't know.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: Speak to the woman who whose dissociation doesn't look as destructive.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: It could simply just, again, you're you're checked out.
25:51
SPEAKER_00: You're not willing to sit with yourself in those moments.
25:53
SPEAKER_00: So it can even be the woman that's sitting there watching an entire season.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: No offense, Joy.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying you deserve to.
26:00
SPEAKER_00: But I'm saying it looks like you were just checked out mentally and you're almost living in somebody else's storyline.
26:06
SPEAKER_00: I described association as watching your life like a movie, not really feeling it, not being present in your body or your feelings, um, really just having distance from connection.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: That's how I would kind of describe a list of that description.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: Distance from connection.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: Because you can't wholeheartedly step in and connect with people while you're checked out mentally.
26:27
SPEAKER_00: That's not a thing.
26:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: Right.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: So even though I was using work when it was time to put my daughter down at night, let's say when she was two, I could do five minutes, have the sweet, sweet, sweet, sweet moments, and then I had to go.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: It was really hard to just be there.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: Just be with her.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:58
unknown: Yeah.
26:59
SPEAKER_01: Or like all those years I said it was hard for me to play.
27:03
SPEAKER_01: Cause to play, you gotta be present.
27:06
SPEAKER_01: You gotta be able to use your creativity and your imagination.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: And those shut off.
27:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, when you're a dissociated or not.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: There's those eight beautiful seas of self, and one is creative, you know?
27:19
SPEAKER_00: And it's like if you don't find a space where you can be creative and like really within yourself, like that's a problem.
27:26
SPEAKER_00: I mean, and dissociation doesn't have to, no, it doesn't have to look destructive.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: But I would tell you that work and binging and everything else is destructive too.
27:37
unknown: Yeah.
27:37
SPEAKER_00: Maybe not to the level, right?
27:39
SPEAKER_01: But it's thing that we, yeah.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: I think we hid as a culture, we hid our dissociation in the boss babe era or whatever for sure.
27:47
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
27:49
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's so go ahead.
27:52
SPEAKER_02: I was just gonna tell you a funny story.
27:54
SPEAKER_02: Like that made me giggle about play because I would play Barbies, but I was always I would always play the mom Barbie, and the mom Barbie always had to take a nap.
28:03
SPEAKER_02: So my plane was actually just napping.
28:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:09
SPEAKER_01: Oh, someone told me a client told me last week that she was teaching me how she has taught her kids how to um recognize their basic needs, right?
28:18
SPEAKER_01: We she's like, we need rest, we need love, we need food, we need whatever.
28:21
SPEAKER_01: Anyways, and um, so she's given her very young children all this language, right, to identify what they're feeling and to process it and ask for what they need.
28:28
SPEAKER_01: And so one of her kids told her last week, mommy, that was naughty.
28:32
SPEAKER_01: You should not have spoken to me that way.
28:34
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna put you in timeout.
28:35
SPEAKER_01: She was like, Yes, please.
28:37
SPEAKER_02: Yes, please, absolutely.
28:38
SPEAKER_02: You mean I'm grounded?
28:39
SPEAKER_02: Like I have to go to bed early, like oh my goodness.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so what we're talking about is being able to trust that everything's gonna be okay is not something you can think your way into.
28:52
SPEAKER_01: Talk about all the ways as a culture we are trying to think our way into feeling like everything's gonna be okay, right?
29:01
SPEAKER_01: How many uh affirmation tracks, like law of attraction, even scripture memorization?
29:09
SPEAKER_01: Like what are the ways you see women trying to think their way into believing, believing that everything's gonna be okay?
29:19
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's like putting lipstick on a pig.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: Pigs are so cute.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: I know they're so cute.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: But it's almost like we're just trying to cover it.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: We're trying to cover up how sad we are, how lonely we are, especially in our inner circles, people that tell us we should be over it.
29:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, we are really hiding how we tell ourselves it is over it.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: Right.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: And then it's like, yeah, you're getting on and you're listening to these tracks and everything like that.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: That creates not media.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: It is.
29:54
SPEAKER_00: It's a tool, right?
29:55
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
29:55
SPEAKER_00: But it's almost like I deal with so many women too, that one of their main firefighter parts is isolation.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: They they're just by themselves all the time.
30:03
SPEAKER_00: They're canceling plans last minute, they just want to be in the house.
30:06
SPEAKER_00: They don't have capacity to even have conversations about where they are.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: Their performance feels so intense.
30:13
SPEAKER_00: It just feels so wrong.
30:16
SPEAKER_00: So for me, yeah, I think that in an era of quick fixes, you know, take the pill, do the thing, buy the cream, take the class.
30:26
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's all, I'm sorry, like it's all, it's all bullshit, it's all band-aids.
30:31
SPEAKER_01: Um but that's what Instagram and Tiki Talkie are telling us, right?
30:35
SPEAKER_01: Like how many wellness people on Instagram, like very capable, like some of them are capable and qualified.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: Clinicians or coaches, some of them are not, right?
30:46
SPEAKER_01: But anyone who's not telling you the truth about what transformation takes and then what living living involves, right?
30:58
SPEAKER_01: There's no there.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: There's no there.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: There's there's here, there's always here, and here is always gonna have highs and lows.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: Well, and I think that's what fuels it, right?
31:10
SPEAKER_00: Because when when people want to make us believe that a certain product is gonna give us a certain outcome, right?
31:16
SPEAKER_00: That we can just skirt around our healing and then we don't, but oh wait, here's something else.
31:21
SPEAKER_00: That that's what fuels our society.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: It's like we don't want to do the hard work.
31:25
SPEAKER_00: So we spend our time and our healing years, and I did the same thing.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: I spent a decade touching the surface of what was underneath of everything because I was so afraid to go deep because I was afraid I was gonna get stuck there, that I was never gonna find my way out.
31:40
SPEAKER_00: Right.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: And I see that with so many women, but then I'm gonna advocate that there's this other side, right?
31:45
SPEAKER_01: I wasn't afraid to go deep, but I couldn't get through the dissociation.
31:49
SPEAKER_01: And that was a journey of looking through for enough tools that could facilitate that breakthrough of the dissociation.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: Um and so much of what I had to do wasn't just finding the right tool.
32:05
SPEAKER_01: It was creating enough of a support system and creating a life that was safe enough that then when I found the tools, I could surrender and put it all down, right?
32:14
SPEAKER_01: Take the armor off.
32:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:16
SPEAKER_01: So it's like such a journey that cannot happen all at once, or even, you know, dare I say, in a year.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: Like it's this is building the foundations to live life in a different way.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: So what I'm hearing us say is self-trust and believing it's gonna be okay can't happen just through tools or just through thinking or just through learning or just through any one thing.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: It has to be built on repeated uh experiences of being supported, seen, heard, loved, accepted while doing the hard things and using the tools and creating support.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: And it can't happen outside of intimate relationships and practice and feeling supported.
33:10
SPEAKER_00: Basically, you can't isolate yourself.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: No, but you can't isolate yourself and think that you're healing.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: And I did that for a long time.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: Again, I talk about that in Myrtle.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: I had acquaintances.
33:19
SPEAKER_00: I didn't have deep friendships that challenged me.
33:22
SPEAKER_00: I didn't have friends that would push back and say, but why are you doing it that way?
33:26
SPEAKER_00: Or why is this happening?
33:27
SPEAKER_00: Everything felt safe.
33:29
SPEAKER_00: I had literally created a group of people around me that were a false sense of security who never challenged me, never made me grow.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: And I was sitting in a bubble of everything that I was controlling around me.
33:41
SPEAKER_00: There was never a chance for me to be challenged, for me to practice or test or anything like that, which is why I got into this relationship and everything blew up because I had kept myself so safe for so long that I didn't know how to human anymore.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: I didn't know how to show compassion or empathy or relate.
34:00
SPEAKER_00: You know, I just couldn't connect anymore because I wasn't even connected to myself.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: What would what would Myrtle Beach then, Tiffany, have said about uh, you know, why can't why can't I believe that everything's gonna be okay?
34:18
SPEAKER_01: Why can't I trust that?
34:19
SPEAKER_01: Why can't I believe that?
34:21
SPEAKER_00: Because I was waiting on other people to come save me.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: And at the time, I didn't recognize that everything I needed was in me.
34:29
SPEAKER_00: I didn't feel like I was capable of writing the ship.
34:33
SPEAKER_00: It felt too big.
34:36
SPEAKER_00: And I just that's why every day revolved around uncertainty because I had built a life of an ex-husband who wasn't supportive, of friends who weren't supportive.
34:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, I had created a very low vibe life.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: So when I needed people to show up for me, it didn't happen.
34:54
SPEAKER_00: And I look at the the difference now between that and what just I just experienced with my father passing and the overwhelming amount of people who showed up for me.
35:05
SPEAKER_00: And that is because I made the choice a few years ago to really connect with people and let them in.
35:12
SPEAKER_00: Myrtle be Chiffany didn't have that.
35:14
SPEAKER_00: She didn't have that.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: Blessed Joy, what would then Joy have said about why can't I trust or believe that everything's gonna be okay?
35:23
SPEAKER_02: I had built a life around believing that I was supposed to be married to this man and he was choosing to leave, and I had done everything right, you know, like I'd done everything right.
35:37
SPEAKER_02: I was a good good wife, and so I couldn't ever get my head around me being wrong all those years.
35:48
SPEAKER_02: Or how did I like how did I who would pride herself on being um like feminist or you know, like pink rock hard um F you?
36:03
SPEAKER_02: How did I get here to be single at 40?
36:06
SPEAKER_02: And I wasn't 40, but like I could see 40 in my distance, and like how did I get here with to be a single mom with three small children?
36:14
SPEAKER_02: And when I considered myself so empowered, but it really wasn't, it was rooted in yeah.
36:27
SPEAKER_03: So did I answer your question?
36:31
SPEAKER_01: Not yet, but you're working up to it.
36:35
SPEAKER_01: What would she have said about why can't I believe everything's gonna be okay?
36:41
SPEAKER_02: Because I had lost myself so I had lost myself so badly that I couldn't even know who I was to be able to say to trust myself.
36:58
SPEAKER_02: I had abandoned myself for so long, so deeply that I had to learn myself before and that's always gonna be a journey.
37:06
SPEAKER_02: I don't, you know, like I I think you even now I I meet parts of myself.
37:11
SPEAKER_02: But like um I had abandoned myself so deeply that I didn't I couldn't trust myself because I didn't know myself.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: So as I'm hearing both of your answers and thinking about I would have told anyone that everything was gonna be okay, like that I, Capital B believed that, right?
37:34
SPEAKER_01: That everything was gonna be okay.
37:38
SPEAKER_01: But what have what would have betrayed my dissociated state was that I would have said when everything is definitely gonna be okay, when for sure it's gonna be okay.
37:51
SPEAKER_01: I would have been almost like Dululu, uh, how how okay everything was gonna be, right?
37:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah when and what if what if the whole thing is that everything is already okay and we're fighting so hard against the experience of being human that we so badly need it to fit in an Instagram grid versus, you know, when we think about tragedies in life, like that even in tragedies we have the opportunity for closeness, for connection, for togetherness, for hope, for faith, for just doing it all together.
38:45
SPEAKER_01: And I think we often in our traumas and our despair I think life is supposed to be something that it's not.
38:55
SPEAKER_01: And maybe that's because connection doesn't feel safe.
38:59
SPEAKER_01: And so we're missing out on the sweetest parts of it when we're in those dissociated states.
39:06
SPEAKER_01: And so we keep trying to run away from the pain or the tragedy when what we really need to be running towards is not a life without challenges, but a life that is full of connectedness and love and the ability to be open and with each other and it's hard to explain until you've had a felt sense of it.
39:36
SPEAKER_01: What would either of you say to any of the women that are really struggling to trust that it's gonna be okay or that they are okay and they're not quite clear what the next step needs to be.
39:54
SPEAKER_02: There's a song by Rachel Patton.
39:57
SPEAKER_02: Um, I love that one, but um it's basically I'll give you there's a line in it and I can't I can't pull it up, but it's um I'll give you my wing till yours can open.
40:17
SPEAKER_02: Ooh.
40:18
SPEAKER_02: And it's basically like we you might not be able to see, but lean on us and let us help you.
40:28
SPEAKER_02: And like, um, you know, and and you could say linking arms, let us link arms with you as as you fight your way to yourself, because it's when you're in your when you're in that it's so hard to see.
40:44
SPEAKER_02: When you're in that moment where you're every time your phone dings, you pick it up because it might be him, or um trying to control what your kids eat.
40:53
SPEAKER_02: When you're in that, it's so so hard to see.
40:57
SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's why this community is so powerful because we get to step in with you.
41:09
SPEAKER_00: What I realized too about retreat that was really special for me is I remember two things kind of spin-off, right?
41:18
SPEAKER_00: One of our women got to the resort and I opened the door for her, and when she saw me, she just grabbed onto me and just started sobbing.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
41:31
SPEAKER_00: Like it was one of those beautiful moments.
41:33
SPEAKER_00: And I saw that a lot over the weekend where sometimes our women just needed hugs and to be able to hug them and not let go until they were ready to let go.
41:44
SPEAKER_00: That if it was a minute, five minutes, it didn't matter just to be there with them and to not even have to say a word and to let them like that felt sense that they felt that we were not going to let go until they decided it was okay to let go.
41:59
SPEAKER_00: How many times have you been able to sit like that with a friend and not feel like, oh God, this is too much?
42:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm sharing too much.
42:07
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like being in a room with people who you're messy is not too messy, where you can just say the thing and not feel like other women are going to judge you or hold it against you.
42:20
SPEAKER_00: It is a very powerful thing.
42:22
SPEAKER_00: And it is something that if I would have had it back then, it clearly wouldn't have taken me as long to get here because I had shut myself off for so long.
42:31
SPEAKER_00: So I would say that that to me is what does it about the program is just having women step in and just feel seen.
42:42
SPEAKER_01: It's so repairing at a nervous system level.
42:45
SPEAKER_01: In addiction recovery, we call it a sober reference, right?
42:49
SPEAKER_01: That first time that somebody is able to stay sober and have fun and like enjoy life from a completely sober space.
42:56
SPEAKER_01: It's like that is what happens when you are able to completely let your guard down and just be held and let that in, where you can be open to receiving, it's a sober reference of what it feels like to be emotionally honest and safe and accepted and received, and there's no substitution for that.
43:20
unknown: Yeah.
43:21
SPEAKER_01: Right, darlings.
43:22
SPEAKER_01: If you are a different D-word curious, now is the time for you to check out the program.
43:32
SPEAKER_01: If you have been thinking about working with us on any level, I want you to go to the link in the show notes and fill out the form and hop on a call with me.
43:42
SPEAKER_01: Let's just check it out and see if it's a good fit.
43:45
SPEAKER_01: You are the expert on you.
43:47
SPEAKER_01: We are the experts on recovery, and that is a really powerful team.
43:52
SPEAKER_01: We love you so much.
43:54
SPEAKER_01: Peace.