Latest / Beyond Sunday Worship Leader Podcast / #312: Brenton Brown on Leading Worship in the 90s, Writing Worship Songs, & Early Vineyard UK Stories

Transcript

#312: Brenton Brown on Leading Worship in the 90s, Writing Worship Songs, & Early Vineyard UK Stories · Beyond Sunday Worship Leader Podcast

• 0:00
  I'm here with the legend Brenton Brown and very excited.
• 0:06
  Very excited to chat, I was wanting you to talk to us a little bit
• 0:09
  about the Vineyard Projects, Winds of Worship 12 and Hungry and kind
• 0:13
  of what God was doing at that time.
• 0:15
  I know for me personally, those you know, those records were really influential
• 0:18
  in my journey as a worship leader.
• 0:20
  Me and my brother used to, Man, we wore those CDs out.
• 0:23
  And so maybe you could just kind of set the stage, take us back to that moment,
• 0:27
  like what was God doing at the time?
• 0:29
  And you know, how special did those kind of songwriting sessions and,
• 0:34
  you know, live recordings feel?
• 0:37
  Well, I mean, I always feel like I have to, to say this, there was
• 0:42
  nothing like particularly cool happening at the time with us.
• 0:47
  Like we, the coolest.
• 0:49
  thing that happened was that this guy, Brian Doerksen from
• 0:52
  Canada came over to England.
• 0:54
  And he'd written songs like light the fire again and refiners fire.
• 0:58
  A lot of songs about fire, as it turns out.
• 1:00
  And and he'd been brought in by Vineyard UK to just like check
• 1:05
  in with all the worship leaders who were leading in the churches.
• 1:10
  I think there were maybe, I don't know, 37, 50, somewhere around that
• 1:16
  church plants around the UK, but they're mostly made in school halls.
• 1:19
  I don't think anybody had a building and we, you know, for Sundays we'd get
• 1:24
  there early and have to set up sound.
• 1:26
  And it was pretty raw, but then there was like, the Holy Spirit was doing stuff.
• 1:31
  Like people were having the stuff.
• 1:33
  You know, reconnection to God and and their faith and, and
• 1:37
  understanding that the Holy Spirit was also a member of the Trinity.
• 1:41
  And so there was this, there was that going on.
• 1:44
  And then there were these songs coming over from the U.
• 1:46
  S.
• 1:47
  But in terms of our churches, like, I led worship with a drum machine
• 1:51
  not necessarily by preference.
• 1:53
  My pastor really loved the drums.
• 1:56
  So I was, like, Saturday afternoons, I was, I'm not good at this.
• 2:00
  I was programming an Alesis drum machine for church on Sunday morning.
• 2:06
  And, yeah, I mean, we talked about this before, but there's no way to explain
• 2:10
  just exactly how, like, rudimentary and basic leading worship on Sunday was.
• 2:16
  It was like, like, you wouldn't There was no like worship artistry or how
• 2:22
  to, how to play bass in this song.
• 2:24
  There was no worship together.
• 2:25
  It's the new song cafe.
• 2:27
  It's basically whatever you can get your hands on, like, and the
• 2:30
  internet was still just blossoming.
• 2:32
  So, you know, we'd be out there just pilfering copyrights and.
• 2:37
  And printing them out for our band.
• 2:39
  And then I was just trying to program the drums on the Saturday afternoon
• 2:42
  and they were oftentimes, and I had to like hit, hit the floor pedal with
• 2:46
  my foot and I'd mess that up a bunch.
• 2:48
  Like I just think you remember one morning, like getting into this very
• 2:53
  tender moment of worship and then by mistake, hitting the wrong drum pedal
• 2:58
  and this massive, like just started.
• 3:01
  in the middle and people just like holding their hands out, just like emotional
• 3:05
  violence committed to and I had to stop and go, sorry, I'm not good at this.
• 3:10
  That's amazing.
• 3:11
  So that's, that's literally what it looked like on the ground.
• 3:14
  There was nothing flashed, man.
• 3:16
  It was just, it was pretty raw.
• 3:18
  Brian got everyone together and people brought songs that the songs
• 3:21
  I've brought for that record were.
• 3:24
  I'd written them in South Africa.
• 3:26
  And if you thought England was raw, South Africa was way rawer than that, you know.
• 3:29
  And but, you know, different as well.
• 3:32
  Lots of community and life and joy.
• 3:35
  So, I pushed in, and then I remember thinking that, like, man,
• 3:39
  these musicians are really good.
• 3:41
  Like, we didn't use a drum machine for that recording.
• 3:44
  It was an actual drummer, and he was really good.
• 3:48
  Calum Rees So, yeah, yeah, that's how it was, man.
• 3:52
  And when we, and that was the most number of Christians I'd ever seen in one room.
• 3:57
  I think the percentage was 5 percent of the UK was going to church on a Sunday,
• 4:01
  5 percent and the number was falling.
• 4:03
  So, so it wasn't like, you're like, you have to really want
• 4:08
  to go to church to go to church.
• 4:10
  It wasn't like, Hey, we'll just go to church and then get brunch or something.
• 4:13
  No one was doing that.
• 4:14
  So we did the recording in the school hall in South West London, and it was the most
• 4:19
  Christians I'd seen in one place pretty, pretty much, and and it was out of body.
• 4:23
  It was like, the Lord was there, people were worshipping and I remember going,
• 4:28
  I went home on the bus because I was a student, and then I had to walk, I
• 4:32
  didn't have a car, and I walked back home after getting off the bus, and I
• 4:35
  remember just That actually happened.
• 4:37
  Like, that felt so glorious and heavenly and just so much light
• 4:42
  and hope and the presence of God.
• 4:44
  And then just back to normal life after that, and it didn't sink in that
• 4:49
  anything else would change after that, other than that night for a long time.
• 4:54
  Yeah.
• 4:55
  Well, I love it, man.
• 4:55
  Those songs are just so, so special.
• 4:58
  When you guys were, arranging that like musically, were, was
• 5:03
  there an intentionality in, Hey, let's push the envelope.
• 5:09
  Let's stretch ourselves creatively.
• 5:10
  Let's crank up the guitars.
• 5:12
  I mean, I just remember like the electric guitars, just like just
• 5:16
  massive, you know, like, I'm just curious as to like those conversations,
• 5:21
  like, let's not play it safe.
• 5:22
  Like, let's kind of push the envelope here.
• 5:24
  Is that what it was like?
• 5:25
  I mean, a little bit like, Doerksen's responsible for that there's a
• 5:31
  phrase Jason Upton uses, which is reverence the resistance.
• 5:34
  God reverences our resistance.
• 5:37
  Like, he just acknowledges where we're at, you know, and
• 5:39
  Doerksen definitely did that.
• 5:41
  He was like, Well, these kids are not like the other kids.
• 5:44
  Like he moved from Canada and our band was like the best musician in,
• 5:50
  you know, that we could find out of the 30 churches to play that part.
• 5:55
  And the guitarists were rockers.
• 5:57
  Like Marc James, Marc James left school at 16 and was in a rock band.
• 6:02
  Like he was, this is like, he was all about it.
• 6:05
  He showed up with a Marshall stack.
• 6:07
  That was, that was what Marc brought.
• 6:09
  And there wasn't, it wasn't another alternative, you know, he had long, he
• 6:13
  still got long hair, like that was, it was like getting Lemmy from Motörhead
• 6:17
  to come and sing backing vocals.
• 6:19
  You're going to get what you're going to get, you know?
• 6:21
  So, and then I guess the same is true for everyone in that band, like Nigel
• 6:27
  Hemming on the keyboard, everyone was like co producing on that.
• 6:30
  So everybody could speak into it.
• 6:32
  And then Paul Burton, the guy who mixed it was also.
• 6:36
  He's also a character like he's also like you get what you're gonna get.
• 6:40
  We're not gonna try and make this sound like the other vineyard records because
• 6:42
  that was the other thing vineyard records were very gentle like the move of the holy
• 6:48
  spirit was super gentle like like there was no countdown to the start of worship
• 6:53
  it was more like the band just started playing and singing and if you were
• 6:57
  change my heart oh god yeah if you were interested exactly if you were interested
• 7:01
  in singing along Please sing along or just finish your coffee and carry on your
• 7:05
  conversation and when you're ready come in because that was the vibe you know
• 7:09
  worship the worship arc would be like
• 7:13
  that was the vibe, bro So these songs man, they just started here, you know, some
• 7:20
  of them just kept checking So I remember audible gasps at what was coming off
• 7:24
  the stage at one of the recordings And when we did like a panky little song for
• 7:29
  Hungry, I just remember going, I heard the counting was one, two, three, like that.
• 7:33
  And I think it's like 140.
• 7:35
  And I just remember the whole room, the school going like this.
• 7:40
  That's so fun.
• 7:45
  Well, I remember me and my brother, yeah, this was like, we were, I don't even
• 7:50
  remember middle school, high school.
• 7:51
  I can't remember.
• 7:52
  But we, I remember.
• 7:54
  Like Refuge in You, I think you wrote that one.
• 7:57
  Yes, that's the song, that's the gasp.
• 7:59
  Yeah, that's the, okay, guess what, cause those yeah, those guitars were
• 8:03
  just so massive that it just punches you in the face, like, right away.
• 8:07
  Like, if you're not ready for it, there's no getting ready.
• 8:10
  You know, it's just There was no Ron Kenoly did not prepare you for that.
• 8:15
  No.
• 8:15
  Change My Heart O God, did not prepare you for that.
• 8:17
  There was no, yeah.
• 8:19
  And I remember, this is how cool it was, though, because the Mumfords, Marcus
• 8:23
  Mumford, who people may know, his parents were the leaders of the church movement.
• 8:28
  Like, Marcus was just a little kid playing djembe on Sunday mornings, but
• 8:32
  like, you know, they, they'd actually spent time in California where this
• 8:36
  move of God was happening and came back, you know, this is how you do
• 8:39
  worship, but they were very kind to us.
• 8:41
  And I remember Marcus's mom, Ellie, showing up for rehearsal and
• 8:45
  hearing us practicing Refuge in You.
• 8:48
  Hey, guys, just remember going, you funny boys.
• 8:51
  That's what she said.
• 8:53
  That was it, man.
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  There was no like, hey, man, you guys want to think about this,
• 8:56
  it's a Vineyard Record, you know.
• 8:58
  They didn't care.
• 8:59
  They just, they just let us have creative reign, you know, and everybody
• 9:03
  spoke into it and we just went for it.
• 9:05
  Whatever it was.
• 9:06
  So.
• 9:07
  You know, there was a violin solo in one of the songs and then there was that.
• 9:10
  So Yeah, I love it.
• 9:13
  And I wonder Brenton if you could if you could talk to us kind of about
• 9:17
  the arc of worship music Like in the church over the last like I don't know
• 9:21
  20 30 years and maybe this is my age speaking, you know, like the good old
• 9:26
  days, but like I feel like there there used to be more creativity or at least
• 9:32
  pursuit of creativity whereas today it's it's more focused on What's kind
• 9:37
  of more commercial and what's singable.
• 9:40
  Any observations that you have about that?
• 9:42
  Because you were, you were back there in those kinds of pioneering days
• 9:45
  and you're still making music today.
• 9:48
  What are some observations that you see just about worship music?
• 9:51
  Over the last few decades.
• 9:53
  It's wild that I can speak about worship music over the last few decades.
• 9:57
  If you told my worship leader back in, back when I was 18, that this guy's
• 10:01
  gonna be asked that question, they're gonna be, He's got nothing to tell you.
• 10:04
  Move on.
• 10:05
  Somebody else will be answering this question.
• 10:07
  Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of, there are a lot of pros to, You
• 10:13
  know to to work like the practice of contemporary modern worship right now.
• 10:19
  We've got service planner You know, we have a lot of aids we have service planner
• 10:25
  You can you don't have to talk to somebody to know what you're singing on Sunday
• 10:28
  morning and you've got Then you got these YouTube videos showing people Doing the
• 10:34
  song then there's even instructional videos on how to play a particular part
• 10:39
  in the song Yeah and then there's the expectation of everybody in the church.
• 10:44
  They've also watched the elevation videos So they're having an expectation of
• 10:48
  what the song's gonna sound like Often there's like a sound rig that's set up.
• 10:53
  There's a there's a drum screen at the drums Like so there are
• 10:58
  a lot of like a lot of pros.
• 11:00
  It's there's a lot of Ease of use.
• 11:02
  I would say a lot of tools, a lot of tools, but there was, there's
• 11:06
  a lot of tools for our toolbag was basically just literally a tool bag.
• 11:11
  Can someone open this XLR and get the demon out of it?
• 11:21
  You know, I can't like, the one way they explain it to people is we used to spend
• 11:26
  so much time praying for technical issues.
• 11:29
  Like nowadays, I don't even know, like somebody made a joke, like,
• 11:32
  Hey, you guys have had your Red Bull.
• 11:34
  Do we even need to pray?
• 11:35
  It was like, it was snarky, but it was also pretty profound.
• 11:38
  You know, we actually do need to pray, but back then, man, we'd have to
• 11:43
  pray because like we, we were setting up sound systems from scratch and
• 11:48
  they weren't state of the art, bro.
• 11:50
  They were just like what we could afford.
• 11:52
  They were, you know, they were just these old big heavy boxes.
• 11:56
  And then there was always during sound check, which was also
• 11:59
  rehearsal, just like obnoxious.
• 12:02
  Feedback that was just like, burst through like a horde of
• 12:06
  demons and then just leave.
• 12:08
  And you would never know when you were playing, at which point in the
• 12:12
  service that was going to happen.
• 12:13
  You know, it could happen at any point.
• 12:15
  So, I mean, literally there was a tool bag and people would be out there.
• 12:19
  And then before the service, you'd be like, please Lord Jesus, we just ask
• 12:22
  your blessing on every cable, every speaker, the desk, the sound man.
• 12:27
  Like we try to cover all the bases.
• 12:28
  It was like, you know, it was like a comprehensive insurance.
• 12:32
  And that was the reality.
• 12:33
  So there was, so it was a lot, it was a lot more nerve wracking, I think.
• 12:38
  Like, you were on the edge, and you, you know, you're not thinking about, man,
• 12:41
  are we doing the kick pattern exactly the way Elevation did it on Verse 2?
• 12:45
  During that thing, bro, you just like, can we get through
• 12:48
  this without social suicide?
• 12:49
  Like it is, are we going to survive this, you know, and then, and then when Jesus
• 12:54
  showed up and like everyone in the room knew it's a holy moment, God is here,
• 13:00
  then you didn't want to leave that.
• 13:01
  You were like, Oh my gosh, we made it under the trench, through the
• 13:04
  tunnel, like, like through the woods, under the sea, in a boat.
• 13:10
  At that point, you know, it's not, it's not because of you.
• 13:14
  Things went well.
• 13:15
  It was the power of the Holy spirit sweeping through 100%.
• 13:20
  There's no, yeah, there was, there was no coolness.
• 13:23
  So, and even if you practice real hard, you know, it's hard to explain this, but
• 13:27
  you could have a really great practice on a Thursday night in someone's living
• 13:30
  room, which is typically how it was.
• 13:32
  And Sunday morning, like who, who knew what was going to happen on Sunday,
• 13:36
  man, anything could happen on a Sunday.
• 13:38
  Cause everyone is volunteers.
• 13:40
  It wasn't like, you know, maybe at one of the churches I was at, there was a sound
• 13:46
  guy who was on salary or getting paid for the gig, but like the guy who was doing
• 13:50
  sound was probably like an accountant.
• 13:53
  He was like, man, I don't, I don't know what's causing this trouble.
• 13:56
  Should we pray?
• 13:57
  That was basically, that was where we were at.
• 14:00
  So there was a lot of desperation.
• 14:03
  And I think like desperation does lead to creativity.
• 14:06
  Like you, You're willing to try anything to connect with God, like
• 14:11
  often, just like emotional triage just before you started worship.
• 14:16
  But just to say, Dave, Dave, I'm sorry for what I said earlier during soundcheck.
• 14:22
  That was, that was wrong of me.
• 14:23
  You know, like Lord, would you just, Lord, you see us, would you
• 14:27
  just bless this little offering?
• 14:28
  That was the reality of it.
• 14:31
  So have we gotten, have we gotten too comfortable today?
• 14:36
  Like, is it, is it like too easy to where we're not like desperate
• 14:42
  for the Holy Spirit anymore?
• 14:44
  I mean, that's a, that's kind of a blanket statement, but
• 14:47
  could we be in danger of that?
• 14:50
  I mean, I definitely think, yeah, I definitely think you could phone it in.
• 14:54
  Literally phone it in right now.
• 14:56
  You know, there's no You could.
• 14:58
  You, you could lead worship without ever actually having to talk to anybody
• 15:01
  in your band, just like literally put the songs up in service planner, like,
• 15:07
  you know, the list, the reference.
• 15:10
  The actual, like bass player's new, he goes, I want you to play this
• 15:14
  planet check bass part, please.
• 15:16
  And then, and then get up there, sound check, the sound guy's already there,
• 15:21
  you just put your ears in, plug your instrument in, you don't even, there's
• 15:25
  no sense of danger or fear that this thing's gonna not work out, you know?
• 15:30
  And, yeah, of course, there's, there's always that danger.
• 15:34
  I mean, I don't, I don't want to go back there.
• 15:37
  Believe me, it was gnarly.
• 15:39
  And setting up at six in the morning in a brand new room every week was gnarly.
• 15:43
  It was a lot of gnarliness you know.
• 15:45
  Yes, right.
• 15:47
  So Brenton, I want to talk a little bit about songwriting, and I'm
• 15:50
  going to throw this massive question at you, but what do you think it
• 15:54
  takes to write a good worship song?
• 15:56
  You've written a handful of pretty good worship songs, I would say, in your day.
• 16:01
  What have you learned about, crafting a worship song?
• 16:04
  How to do that effectively?
• 16:06
  What are the few things that would be helpful to us as writers?
• 16:11
  I mean, candidly, I'll give you a small answer to a big question.
• 16:15
  I don't know the secret.
• 16:16
  I don't know what the recipe is.
• 16:19
  It's the same thing.
• 16:20
  Well, here's the one thing, here's the one thing I will say about phoning
• 16:24
  it in and technical assistance.
• 16:27
  You can have all the technical assistance and know all the information and that's
• 16:32
  not what's going to get the Lord in the room like he responds, you know,
• 16:37
  a broken heart and a contract spirit.
• 16:39
  I have not despised.
• 16:40
  Like, I will show up for those people who want me.
• 16:45
  And that's true whether the worship team does a good job or not.
• 16:48
  I mean, that's how, in my opinion, that's how the church survives.
• 16:52
  Like, fortunately, we're not dependent on the worship team for the presence of God.
• 16:57
  God's doing his, it's his church and he's doing his own thing.
• 17:00
  Like, whatever, whatever jam we're on, it doesn't, that's not going to stop him.
• 17:05
  Put it that way.
• 17:07
  And then the same with songs.
• 17:08
  So the same can be true for songs.
• 17:11
  How embarrassing should I allow myself to be?
• 17:13
  Very embarrassing.
• 17:14
  Go all the way.
• 17:17
  Well, there's a couple of things.
• 17:18
  I feel like the church, the church chooses the songs not the worship leader.
• 17:22
  The worship leader may choose the songs, but the church chooses the songs it loves
• 17:26
  and if the worship leader consistently chooses different songs, the worship
• 17:30
  leader and the church will, you know, will, that'll come to an end eventually.
• 17:35
  Although you can go a long way on enthusiasm and technical proficiency,
• 17:39
  that's, that's for sure, but but eventually it'll come to an end.
• 17:42
  So the church chooses the songs, I think, and then even more
• 17:45
  than that, I honestly feel like.
• 17:47
  Jesus chooses the songs.
• 17:49
  He, he likes the songs.
• 17:52
  There's certain songs that he likes that I'm not even sure I like,
• 17:55
  like here's, this is embarrassing.
• 17:57
  I'm leaving worship at it, like a bible school with kids,
• 18:01
  you know, just outta school.
• 18:03
  And I do a couple songs and then they're like, well play
• 18:06
  us this song from the old days.
• 18:07
  So I play All Who Are Thirsty.
• 18:09
  We finish All Who Are Thirsty and it feels like, well, Jesus is here and it'd
• 18:14
  be crazy to rush out of this moment.
• 18:16
  This seems like a good place to spend some time.
• 18:20
  And then I find myself going, All Who Are Thirsty, is 6/8, G major.
• 18:25
  I hear myself going, dun, dun, dun, dun, like, what's that, dun,
• 18:29
  dun, dun, dun, I'm playing it.
• 18:31
  I'm like, what is that?
• 18:33
  I see the room kind of perks up and I'm like, wait a minute,
• 18:35
  I don't even know this song.
• 18:36
  This is.
• 18:37
  Graves into gardens.
• 18:39
  This is a while back.
• 18:40
  Okay.
• 18:40
  This is this is crazy.
• 18:43
  So I go like, you know, the work of sanctification is still going on in me.
• 18:51
  You can ask anybody, you know, like it's a process.
• 18:54
  And I already had a long conversation about when I saw the title, I
• 19:00
  hadn't even listened to the song.
• 19:01
  Probably I said to my band.
• 19:05
  Graves into gardens?
• 19:06
  What's graves into gardens?
• 19:09
  You turn graves into gardens?
• 19:11
  Anybody can turn a grave into a garden.
• 19:14
  I'm not even a gardener.
• 19:15
  I know how to turn a grave into a garden.
• 19:16
  That's literally what happens to all the graves.
• 19:18
  They turn into, if you leave them long enough, graves into gardens.
• 19:22
  Like, from, like, just, just from pure, like, reasonable rationale, I
• 19:27
  was like, there's nothing Exciting about a grave becoming a garden.
• 19:31
  the saddest gardens in the world.
• 19:32
  The graves anyway.
• 19:35
  So I had this massive conversation with my band and my drummer gets into it with me.
• 19:39
  He's like, yeah, man, you're right.
• 19:41
  We should be singing things that make sense.
• 19:43
  You know, everybody's been thinking about, about what we sing together.
• 19:47
  And I'm like, yeah, well, I'm not doing that.
• 19:50
  Like, I don't care how popular it is.
• 19:51
  Graves that that's you then cut to me in front of the Bible school, right?
• 19:55
  And I'm like, I don't even know.
• 19:58
  I didn't even know the words to the song.
• 19:59
  There's no lyric projection.
• 20:01
  So I just find myself going you turn graves into gardens and there's
• 20:07
  no denying that Jesus loves this song and so do all these kids.
• 20:12
  And I go, I don't even know the words.
• 20:14
  I go, you turn and they start singing it.
• 20:17
  So I leave, I leave the song.
• 20:18
  I'm just playing along and they're worshiping Jesus.
• 20:21
  He's in the room.
• 20:22
  They don't even need you.
• 20:22
  Yeah.
• 20:22
  They don't need you.
• 20:23
  Thank goodness.
• 20:24
  They don't need me.
• 20:25
  And I'm like, well, that just goes to show yet again, Brown, what a doofus
• 20:30
  you are and how little, you know, about this process, because to be
• 20:34
  honest, it's not a big chapter in the new Testament about worship leading.
• 20:38
  Like, I don't think it's like the name, the office is not even mentioned.
• 20:44
  I know it's a job right now.
• 20:45
  It wasn't a job back then, but like, it wasn't one of the things.
• 20:50
  Gift of administration is mentioned.
• 20:52
  Take that, musicians.
• 20:53
  There's no worship leader.
• 20:54
  So there's a lot of room for preference and, You know, your choice.
• 21:00
  It's not that you can go, Hey, 2 Peter 1 says you start with a praise song.
• 21:05
  You transition to a medium tempo song and then end with a more
• 21:08
  intimate, slow moving song.
• 21:11
  Do this as often as you think of me.
• 21:13
  He doesn't, he doesn't say that, you know?
• 21:15
  So and if you're a guy who likes, or a lady who likes math and
• 21:19
  engineering, that might bum you out.
• 21:21
  But.
• 21:22
  I mean, it is, Jesus gives us a lot of leeway, like more leeway than I'd like
• 21:29
  him to give me sometimes, but he gives me a lot of leeway and occasionally he shows
• 21:34
  mercy on me and I find myself playing.
• 21:40
  And singing.
• 21:40
  You turn graves into gardens.
• 21:42
  And then he, he, he really meets people where they're at and ministers to them.
• 21:47
  So that's, that's all I know about writing a worship song.
• 21:52
  So you, you might I don't know if any of the guys from Elevation are
• 21:55
  listening to this, but you just basically admitted that you don't like their song.
• 22:00
  Oh, I love it.
• 22:00
  I can't stop leading.
• 22:01
  They were asking me to stop leading that song now.
• 22:04
  Yeah.
• 22:07
  You had a change of heart.
• 22:08
  It's a change of heart.
• 22:08
  Bro, it blew my mind.
• 22:10
  It blew my mind.
• 22:12
  I literally was like, what?
• 22:15
  It's a great song.
• 22:16
  I mean, so many great songs.
• 22:18
  There's so many great songs right now.
• 22:19
  I can't stop singing praise.
• 22:21
  Praise is like the sermon the worship leader always wanted to preach, but
• 22:25
  it's all there in a song that's fun.
• 22:27
  Yeah, they're going to have to start asking me to stop leaving that too.
• 22:30
  But yeah, those, those upbeat, those upbeat songs are, are hard to come
• 22:34
  by, you know, that's, that's true.
• 22:37
  So You wrote one of them while you wrote a handful of them.
• 22:41
  I mean, everlasting God was the church fast song for, I don't know, 15 years.
• 22:48
  It was like, what are we going to do this week?
• 22:49
  Well, everlasting God again, you know, like we just kept doing it, kept doing
• 22:53
  it because it had some tempo to it.
• 22:55
  Praise is rising Hosanna.
• 22:57
  You know, churches are still doing that one.
• 22:59
  It's, it's the you know, the Palm Sunday in the canon of scripture at
• 23:04
  this point, like it's unbelievable, but any tips for like writing like
• 23:10
  celebratory, like upbeat songs?
• 23:13
  Okay.
• 23:14
  Yeah.
• 23:15
  Cause that was a, that was a massive disclaimer basically, but it's true.
• 23:19
  God has to breathe on it.
• 23:21
  There's no, there's no, there's no, but there, I mean, there are ways to,
• 23:28
  to help a congregation sing a song.
• 23:30
  That's also true.
• 23:33
  Well, for uptempos, uptempo songs actually move faster than you can sing.
• 23:38
  So you can, you can write an uptempo song and the melody can still be slow.
• 23:43
  It needs to be slow.
• 23:44
  Otherwise no one's going to be able to sing it.
• 23:46
  jury's out on whether the congregation I'm leading on Sunday
• 23:49
  will be able to sing praise.
• 23:51
  We'll find out kids will be able to sing it, you know.
• 23:54
  You hate this, but your kids are going to love this.
• 23:56
  I always feel like that about my worship sets.
• 23:58
  So you can slow the melody down and keep the tempo up.
• 24:02
  That'll, that helps a little bit.
• 24:04
  I mean, like if I had to break down writing worship songs, make
• 24:10
  them about God, there you go.
• 24:12
  Write songs about God.
• 24:15
  It sounds ludicrously simple, but it's unbelievable how quickly
• 24:21
  you can stop writing about God.
• 24:23
  Like it literally takes like one line and you're like, oh, wait a minute.
• 24:26
  I'm writing about me again.
• 24:28
  So it sounds basic but write about god and and then the second
• 24:33
  thing is make one point actually Pretty much everything I know about
• 24:38
  writing worship songs is online.
• 24:40
  It's an hour.
• 24:41
  You struggle to sleep at night This is for you.
• 24:44
  It's called songwriting 101 With Brenton Brown.
• 24:48
  There wasn't a lot of air in the room when we recorded this song, literally.
• 24:52
  So I did get more and more fatigued as the day went on.
• 24:56
  So you, it might allow you to sleep, but everything I know about
• 24:58
  writing a worship songs in there.
• 25:00
  And one of the main things is a worship song is, is like a one point sermon.
• 25:05
  You can only say there's only enough room to say one thing coherently.
• 25:09
  And even then it's a stretch.
• 25:10
  So.
• 25:11
  That's not a hymn, so just decide what it is you're trying to say,
• 25:15
  and make sure what it is you're trying to say is about God.
• 25:20
  And you're off to a good start.
• 25:23
  Well, you know, Brenton, like, you say those things like it's really
• 25:27
  simple, but that's actually really hard to do, and I think it's because
• 25:31
  we we sort of overthink it sometimes.
• 25:35
  But you see this, like when you're leading worship and you lead a song that
• 25:39
  is literally about Jesus, like objective truth and declaration about who he is,
• 25:46
  like the room just comes alive, right?
• 25:48
  Because that's what we need to sing.
• 25:50
  And then there's other moments where it's like, yeah, this song is a
• 25:52
  little like internal and the room kind of quiets down a little bit.
• 25:55
  Cause it's like, you know, you just sort of get inside of yourself, but the more
• 25:58
  that you can lift people's attention.
• 26:01
  To like, let's declare the truth of who God is.
• 26:06
  Yeah, that's where it's at right there, but it's not easy.
• 26:11
  Yeah.
• 26:13
  I don't know why it's, it's not, I mean, obviously, I mean, my, my
• 26:18
  kid is young said, well, but dad, we wouldn't know anything about God
• 26:22
  if he hadn't revealed itself to us.
• 26:25
  So we learn about God through our own lens.
• 26:28
  Otherwise there's no lens and there's no learning about God.
• 26:31
  Didn't say that but basically that's Oxford epistemology 101.
• 26:35
  He figured it out.
• 26:36
  There's no other way to experience something except You know through your own
• 26:40
  eyes That's a whole nother conversation.
• 26:44
  So that's good.
• 26:45
  But but while you're doing that keep your eyes on God, that's that
• 26:49
  would be my Recommendation and that's why preaching so great.
• 26:54
  If you have an opportunity to teach please take it That's my advice to
• 26:58
  worship leaders who are writing because it's And what I learned pretty quick is
• 27:03
  it's not enough just to know, Hey, this verse, you know, John 10:10, I've come
• 27:09
  to give life and life and, you know, in all abundance that's where, if you
• 27:14
  just say that scripture from the pulpit and then look out at everybody and go,
• 27:22
  get it, then I'm not going to get it.
• 27:25
  Mostly preaching is putting the truth of scripture into your own words
• 27:29
  which is essentially some writing.
• 27:31
  So you, you, what you're, you're trying to do is, in the language and context
• 27:36
  of your situation and your community, you're trying to express what, Life
• 27:42
  in all its fullness looks like you're trying to, you're using other words, you
• 27:46
  know, answer this using your own words.
• 27:49
  Remember that from school?
• 27:50
  That's basically, that's basically writing a worship song.
• 27:54
  So preaching, preaching sure helps with that because it gets your
• 27:58
  brain thinking like, wait a minute.
• 28:00
  Now, how, how can I get past the familiarity of this verse or the language
• 28:04
  of this verse, the language of this translation and really access what Jesus
• 28:09
  is saying to his church through this?
• 28:11
  Yeah, no, I love that.
• 28:14
  Brenton, we, we know a lot of your songs like Everlasting God and Lion
• 28:20
  and the Lamb and even, you know, Soul on Fire and All Who Are Thirsty.
• 28:25
  Is there a song you've been a part of that maybe not as many people know
• 28:30
  about, but is like really special to you?
• 28:34
  Actually, I don't know.
• 28:35
  I'm a bit like, I'm like a dad with my sons.
• 28:38
  I love all my kids.
• 28:40
  I'm pretty much excited.
• 28:41
  Whatever song I'm working on at the time, I'm like, Oh, I love this.
• 28:45
  This, this is sweet.
• 28:46
  You know, maybe that, that level of stupidity is what keeps me going.
• 28:51
  I'm just like, Oh, this one's special, you know, whether it's special or not.
• 28:54
  Well, I'm just, I'm writing a song with So I'm writing a song
• 28:57
  with a guy called Nate Moore from Housefires, and I, I like this song.
• 29:02
  You can't find it anywhere.
• 29:03
  It's not out yet, but you know, I just finished tracking
• 29:05
  it last week for the demo.
• 29:07
  My demos are terrible.
• 29:09
  And I'm just like, Oh, I like, I like this song called There Was Jesus.
• 29:14
  So we'll see.
• 29:15
  We'll see if it makes it out there, but it's, I've tapped into
• 29:18
  my South African Afro pop roots.
• 29:21
  So we'll see.
• 29:22
  I love.
• 29:23
  Yeah.
• 29:24
  I appreciate the intensity of our worship at the moment, but I also would love to
• 29:29
  add a little bit of joy, you know, let the saints be joyful in glory, enjoy yourself.
• 29:36
  There is an Afropop song called Allow Me to Enjoy Myself.
• 29:39
  I think the church needs that, man.
• 29:43
  Allow me to enjoy myself.
• 29:44
  Hey guys, let's get together and enjoy the presence of God and each other together.
• 29:49
  Is that such a bad thing?
• 29:50
  I think it's, I think it's a good thing.
• 29:52
  So yeah.
• 29:53
  I like that.
• 29:54
  I think I mean, I think Martin Smith just released a song about joy.
• 29:58
  I got the joy, joy, joy or something.
• 30:00
  And it's, it's true.
• 30:02
  It's like, I think we, we can get a little intense sometimes, you know, and
• 30:07
  scripture gives us a wider breadth of, Emotions, you know, there's the intensity,
• 30:12
  but there is the celebration and the joy and the shout and the clap your hands.
• 30:16
  And so we got to tap into that, you know, a wider breadth of emotions.
• 30:21
  That's a hundred percent.
• 30:23
  Preach it.
• 30:23
  Yeah.
• 30:24
  Yeah.
• 30:25
  That's my one point sermon right there.
• 30:27
  That's all I got.
• 30:28
  Good.
• 30:28
  Yeah.
• 30:28
  You need nothing else.
• 30:30
  You can drop the mic right now.
• 30:33
  You can't literally, with that special little mic you've got,
• 30:37
  there's no mic dropping for you.
• 30:42
  I want to know before we go further, what instrument did your brother play?
• 30:45
  So, my brother played guitar.
• 30:47
  And I, at the time I was, I played keys, you know, so it was keys.
• 30:53
  He did guitar.
• 30:54
  And I eventually I picked, I picked up guitar and some other things.
• 30:57
  And so he still plays guitar.
• 30:59
  I just don't think he does it quite as much, but yeah.
• 31:02
  I like seeing brothers in the same band.
• 31:06
  I was kind of hoping you guys were the rhythm section.
• 31:09
  Cause that's nice, but you probably could be the rhythm section.
• 31:13
  Yeah.
• 31:14
  It wasn't like, yeah.
• 31:14
  With Refuge In You, it was just on keys.
• 31:17
  It was just sort of like, okay, I'll hold this pad.
• 31:19
  While, the drums and the bass and electric guitars get to be rock stars.
• 31:24
  We actually pushed the bar down further.
• 31:27
  The record that came after that, we went even harder.
• 31:31
  And that was when we discovered the limits of our creative potential.
• 31:34
  Because not everybody was ready for that.
• 31:38
  What was that?
• 31:39
  It was a record called holy.
• 31:41
  Oh, yeah.
• 31:42
  Yeah.
• 31:42
  I remember that.
• 31:42
  Yeah, you went harder with that one.
• 31:45
  Oh, bro Yeah, there's a song called so near I think sam lane Leads it
• 31:50
  it's heavy, bro I mean these boys, you know northern europeans they and
• 31:57
  eastern europeans really like to go Hard the rockers and express all those
• 32:02
  emotions that are bottled up inside and only come up during football games
• 32:06
  Yeah Those come out during rock songs.
• 32:09
  Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, I don't think the room that we recorded
• 32:14
  that in was ready for that, but either then or now, no, nobody
• 32:19
  was ready for how hard we rocked.
• 32:20
  I just said, I just said, let's go, man.
• 32:25
  You guys want to keep going.
• 32:26
  Let's find out how far we can take this.
• 32:29
  Let's go.
• 32:29
  It's good.
• 32:30
  It's fun.
• 32:31
  Yeah.
• 32:32
  So yeah, mostly there's a limit.
• 32:34
  Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 32:35
  For sure.
• 32:36
  So Brenton, what are, before we go here today, what are, what are
• 32:39
  some things that you're working on?
• 32:41
  You have some projects that you're working on, things you're writing for
• 32:46
  that you're excited about that you can let us, let us in a little bit on here.
• 32:50
  Yeah, I'm actually, well, I, I spent the last couple of years working
• 32:57
  very affectionately on an American record called American Hymnal.
• 33:02
  It's like more traditional American music, folk music.
• 33:06
  A little bit of country, a little bit of blues.
• 33:09
  Don't let that throw you off.
• 33:11
  It's old timey.
• 33:12
  It's old timey music.
• 33:13
  I grew up with these.
• 33:15
  I still like, even today my, my wife knows all these songs.
• 33:18
  She's South African too.
• 33:20
  And there were all these old school songs that I don't know how they made their
• 33:25
  way into our churches, but we sang them.
• 33:28
  I got a home in glory land, just these, these are the sounds, you know?
• 33:32
  So we lived in, during COVID, we spent close to 18 months in Tennessee.
• 33:37
  And half of my band is from there.
• 33:39
  And so we, I took advantage of that and we made it, we made a record that
• 33:43
  sounds like it was made in Tennessee.
• 33:46
  Not in a CCM uh, studio, just in.
• 33:50
  Like a hillbilly studio.
• 33:51
  So yeah, we're stoked on it.
• 33:53
  So that's that that's come on Is that is that not yet?
• 33:57
  No Okay, i'm just holding it.
• 33:59
  I need to make what's known as assets you know, yeah, so I have to I have to do some
• 34:04
  interviews and film some live versions of them and put them out there, I guess.
• 34:09
  I just don't want to drop it into the digital well and let it disappear forever.
• 34:14
  Don't take too long though.
• 34:15
  Don't take too long.
• 34:16
  Now that you've mentioned it to the podcast audience, now
• 34:19
  there's some accountability there.
• 34:21
  That's true.
• 34:22
  That's true.
• 34:23
  Although you think, yeah.
• 34:24
  Yeah, there's a version of the song I did with Tasha Cobbs called, You Know My Name.
• 34:28
  That's not which is not as gospel as Tasha, cause I can't
• 34:32
  sing like Tasha, not even close.
• 34:34
  So it's a much easier to sing version of it.
• 34:37
  And yeah, we spoke on it and now I'm working on a worship record this year.
• 34:41
  So yeah, we, our family have been busy with all kinds of things that we
• 34:47
  would rather not have to be busy with.
• 34:49
  But now I'm.
• 34:51
  I'm ready to run, but yeah, health problems.
• 34:54
  We lost the house in the fire.
• 34:56
  We're back.
• 34:57
  We finally rebuilt after five years.
• 34:59
  So we're, yeah, we're back to the back on it.
• 35:03
  Did you rebuild your house like on the same property?
• 35:07
  We, yeah, we, we rebuilt a house on.
• 35:09
  The same property.
• 35:10
  Yeah, not the same house.
• 35:12
  It's a trip, but I'm in it now.
• 35:14
  This is the, this is the house.
• 35:16
  Yeah.
• 35:17
  Yeah.
• 35:19
  So strange, bro.
• 35:21
  I mean, it feels so strange.
• 35:23
  It's amazing that like, I keep wanting to use, I keep wanting to go to the restroom
• 35:27
  in the, in the, you know, the cupboard.
• 35:29
  It's not, it's the same land, but, but it's a different house.
• 35:33
  So anyway yeah, it's, it's a trip.
• 35:36
  I mean, I wouldn't wish it on anybody, but I'm glad we made it.
• 35:40
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's definitely why I think I've got a home in glory
• 35:44
  land that outshines the sun, right?
• 35:47
  I get what kind of home you have on this earth It's not gonna improve
• 35:50
  your home in glory land, which neither fades nor no rests and cannot be
• 35:56
  eaten by By termites or anything else.
• 35:59
  Yes.
• 36:00
  Amen.
• 36:01
  Yes.
• 36:02
  Oh man, so good.
• 36:03
  Well Brenton, this was a lot of fun, man.
• 36:06
  And I appreciate you taking some time to just chat with us.
• 36:10
  I feel like we could keep going.
• 36:13
  But I want to respect your time.
• 36:15
  But this was really great.
• 36:16
  A lot of fun just to kind of reminisce a little bit.
• 36:18
  Actually, wait a minute.
• 36:19
  There's a couple of records that are coming out.
• 36:22
  This is stupid.
• 36:23
  Not to mention since we talked about the everlasting God is coming out on the
• 36:26
  record that Darlene Zschech and Michael W.
• 36:29
  Smith put together with, they kind of paired up the young
• 36:33
  guns with the old gangsters.
• 36:36
  So I'm, I'm an old gangster and I'm singing everlasting God with Pat Barrett.
• 36:40
  But there's, there's so many cool, there's so many cool songs on there.
• 36:45
  Like all the songs Leeland sings come now as the time with Doerksen
• 36:50
  CC Winans singing with, with Darlene it's, it's, it's kind of cool.
• 36:55
  It's a cool.
• 36:56
  Project.
• 36:57
  So if you'd like those songs back then, I think there was something special
• 37:01
  that, that we recorded that stuff.
• 37:03
  Definitely.
• 37:04
  So that's, that's soon, soon to be released.
• 37:07
  Soon to be released.
• 37:07
  Yeah.
• 37:08
  And then something that has been released is called I think it's called
• 37:11
  breakthrough the stars is the name of the record, but Jeff Deyo from
• 37:14
  Sonicflood recorded All Who Are Thirsty
• 37:16
  wrote a special part for it and there's a thing called 90s worship night That's
• 37:21
  you know, what's not on there is all the technical challenges that we had
• 37:27
  I mean did I we people will know this if they were there but you there was
• 37:31
  you didn't record onto a hard drive You recorded onto an adap machine.
• 37:35
  That's what we recorded the hungry record on and there was prayers for the adap
• 37:39
  machine Like proper legit lord jesus like we're serious Can you please help
• 37:44
  this machine work so that we can track these parts tonight or today on this in
• 37:50
  this moment So I don't miss that I do.
• 37:53
  I I do miss the tenderness and the rawness of it and I I like the the quote
• 37:59
  that annie dylan said she said god is a lot more dangerous than like That we
• 38:05
  give him credit for she she said half jokingly like we should actually attend
• 38:09
  church You In motorcycle helmets because we're dealing with the maker of the
• 38:13
  heavens and the earth, you know, he's he's big and mighty and strong Like
• 38:19
  this is not I mean, obviously hebrews.
• 38:22
  We haven't come to mount zion I mean whatever man the other mountain come
• 38:26
  to the the assembly of the saints and the angel singing But he's still a
• 38:31
  pretty big god It would be terrible if we reduced him to service planner
• 38:36
  as great as that is, and praise charts as great as that is, and new music
• 38:41
  Tuesday, that would be, that would be a terrible disservice to our generation.
• 38:45
  I think if we can, if we can open our own eyes and the eyes of the people
• 38:50
  we serve to the greatness of God, that would be a good thing for us to do.
• 38:55
  So good.
• 38:57
  What's that scripture?
• 38:58
  It's rejoice with trembling.
• 39:01
  You know, it's like, yeah, like.
• 39:04
  Yeah, celebration, but when it comes down to it, he is holy, you know,
• 39:09
  and there's a certain degree of like Trembling that we need to have in
• 39:13
  his presence and I think in church we can just get familiar with it, right?
• 39:16
  But it should be anything but familiar.
• 39:18
  It should blow our minds every time that we have access into the presence of
• 39:24
  holiness, you know, Yes, well said crazy.
• 39:29
  It's crazy.
• 39:30
  No, please help us jesus.
• 39:34
  Yeah Amen, brenton.
• 39:37
  I appreciate you my friend.
• 39:38
  Thanks for thanks for your time today.
• 39:40
  And hey, maybe we can do a round two In a year or so or down the road when when
• 39:45
  your new projects come out and we'll we'll dive into those a little more Intensely.
• 39:52
  Yeah.
• 39:52
  Well, it's a pleasure to hang out with you, bro.
• 39:54
  Thanks for asking me.
• 39:55
  And yeah, with pleasure.
• 39:57
  I'd love to do it.
• 39:59
  God bless you.
• 39:59
  God bless you and your endeavors and all the training you've done.
• 40:02
  Yep.
• 40:03
  Thank you.
• 40:04
  Thanks, Brenton.
• 40:05
  All right.
• 40:05
  Adios.
• 40:06
  See ya.