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It Is Never Too Late to Change Your Life Story · Building the Best You

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What is a personal?
• 0:01
  Speaker 2: narrative.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Well, in simple terms, jean, a personal narrative is our story about ourself.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: It's the story we come up with about ourself, that we tell ourself.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: It's a self-concept and it's shaped by our subjective experiences and it is not always factually correct.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: That is.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: The problem is that we come up with the story and we kind of take bits and pieces of the movie of our life.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: We string these thoughts and beliefs together to come up with a story.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: The problem, main problem, with the narrative, is that we start creating that story when we are very little kids and it is impossible for us to make sense of what's happening around us or make sense about our place in what's happening around us.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: So we come up with our own version of that.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: For better or worse, it's the script we stick to, typically until we find that that script is really getting in the way of us being effective in life.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: And then, hopefully, we go and talk to somebody and we figure out that we've got the story all mixed up.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the House of Germar podcast, where wellness starts within.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: The House of Germar is a lifestyle brand, empowering women to live all in through interior design and personal wellness.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: We are a destination for women ready to reimagine what is possible in their homes and lives and then create it.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: We are honored to have you join us on our mission to empower 1 million women to live all in.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: I am your host, Jean Collins, and I invite you to become inspired by this week's guest.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the House of Jarmar podcast, where wellness starts with it.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, Jean Collins, and today we are going to talk about social work and we're going to talk about your brain and how you think and your narrative.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: I can't wait.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: This is an episode that is for everyone.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: We all have a narrative.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: So today's guest, Ellen Archimonde.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: I am so excited to have her on here.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: I'm going to read a little bit of her bio, just because I want to give you guys a high level about her, so I'm going to have to read it, but it will also be in the show notes, so I just want you to know.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Ellen has extensive experience treating addiction, grief, anxiety, depression, adjustment, as well as personality disorders, with a special focus on women's issues and she uses stuff we're going to get into, because I don't know a lot about all of this.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: She uses cognitive behavioral therapy CBT that I've heard of and one I've never heard of dialectal behavior therapy.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: I am so excited to talk to you, Ellen.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the show.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Jean.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: I'm so happy to be here.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: Oh, I am so happy you are here.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: So, just so everybody knows, ellen and I live in the same town.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: We belong to a women's networking group and we got together for coffee and realized we just personally have so much in common.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: We are both Leos, we just had so much to chat about and normally I'm sort of like, okay, you're a social worker, okay, that's cool, all right, whatever.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: But as soon as we started to talk, she started talking about this whole concept of personal narrative and I was just so interested and fascinated with the work that she does and her practice, and not only that, her journey to get to where she is, which is really just empowering, exciting, and her following her passions to do something she loves.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: So I asked her if she'd be willing to be on the show, which I'm so grateful for your time.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: So, thank you, thank you.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: So before we get started, I always love to talk about people's journeys just a little bit, because you didn't start out saying like I want to be a clinical social worker or maybe you did, but I don't think you did.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: So if you can share with everybody a little bit about your career journey and how you got to where you are today, Sure.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Well, I can say it definitely was not a linear process.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: It was not one way straight ahead.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: It was taking a lot of twists and turns and I started out wanting to be a teacher and quickly changed my major to psychology and got myself into the School of Social Work, went on to get my master's degree in social work and when I came out of graduate school I worked for about three years in community-based programs, mostly in lower Westchester, and then left the field.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: I had a personal tragedy and felt that at that time my heart just wasn't in it anymore.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: I felt that I wanted to take a safer route and went into a field in the corporate world where I felt that my heart would be safe and I wouldn't need to be vulnerable.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: So I stayed in that world for approximately 12 years and towards the end of that time it was very clear to me that I was not in the right place and this was not going to be a good fit for me, that, whether I wanted to accept it or not, my heart was in being a therapist and connecting with people and helping people.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: So I bridged that gap back into the field and fast forward.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: I found myself working at a psychiatric hospital, a local hospital, and fell into the women's program there completely accidentally and before I knew it.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: I was sitting in front of a group of 10 to 15 women every morning for three hours a day doing the outpatient program and, at 50 years old, finally found my place in that group.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: From the first group that I did, I knew that that is where I wanted to be, that is what I wanted to do.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: It felt like coming home.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: I love coming home.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: Okay, and just to wrap up your story, because I interrupted you, but I love the emotion of you feeling at 50, you would finally come home.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: We're going to come back to that, so I'm gonna let you continue.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: Sorry to interrupt.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: Let you continue.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: Sorry to interrupt.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: That's okay.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: It was a long journey and, as I said, one that was completely unexpected.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: Even just falling into that group was accidental.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: There Somebody was stepping out.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: I was new.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: They needed somebody to fill in.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: It was going to be temporary at first and turned out to be permanent.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: As I said, I felt that it was a perfect match and turned out to be permanent.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: As I said, I felt that it was a perfect match.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: And then, after spending some time at the hospital and getting the most amazing experience with a group of clinical people that were just so inspiring I learned so much from them I felt that it was time to move on and into private practice and joined a couple of doctors from that same hospital at a local practice here in town where I've been for the last few years now.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: So you are now your own boss.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: I am my own boss now.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: How does?
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: that feel.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: If you think back to that person who was back in that job that you decided wasn't a fit and you could talk to them about where you are now, how does that feel?
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: It feels surreal at times and, as I said before, unexpected.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: Again, the journey really is unexpected.
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: The way you plan for things to happen never is the way it actually happens and in my experience I have found it's always so much more amazing than you ever could have pictured for yourself.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: So, to answer your question, it is way more than I ever could have dreamed for want is they want help to get to that place in whatever area of life it is that they're trying to work on.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: Everyone wants to feel like they're at home and they have landed and they're purpose driven and they're where they're supposed to be at that time of life.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: Yes, definitely.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: And also, maybe the most important message of all is that it's never too late.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: Right that when I remember the moment sitting there and thinking, wow, at 50, really, I just have arrived, right, so just starting, just getting started.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: Right, the motor was just getting started, and that is the absolute truth.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: So whoever is out there listening, thinking that their ship has sailed and it is too late for them, it's never too late.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: It is never too late.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: I'm proof of that Exactly.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: We both are yes, yes, yeah, all right.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: So I have a very fundamental basic question what is the difference between a social worker and a psychiatrist and just people who consider themselves therapists?
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Well, I think the main difference between a clinical social worker at LCSW and a psychiatrist is the medical degree.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: So a psychiatrist is a medical doctor and a clinical social worker is not.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: And then there is a psychologist who is not a medical doctor, kind of in between, and their focus is on research and testing.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: Clinical social worker is on therapy.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: Okay, I got it.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: That might have been basic, but I'm sure I'm not the only person who has that question, because people throw away the terms therapist out there a lot.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: That question because people throw away the terms therapist out there a lot and they're not all the same.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, and from what little I know about this, not all therapists specialize in the same modalities in terms of how they help their patients, so could you explain a little bit about that?
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: Yes, so modality of treatment is different.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: The modality of treatment that I primarily use is a combination of CBT and DBT cognitive behavioral therapy, which focuses on our thoughts, and dialectical behavioral therapy, which is a spinoff of cognitive behavioral therapy, broken up into four modules and offers a set of tangible skills.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: That modality of treatment was created by a woman called Marsha Linehan in the 80s, and she came up with this modality of treatment as she was once a patient herself.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: So, having found that nothing was helping her, she created this out of the University of Washington and is still practicing there today, I believe.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: Okay, so one deals with thinking and the other deals with modalities therapy focuses on the connection between thoughts, feelings and behaviors, the difference being it's broken up into modules for and offers tangible skills to use, so they're called DBT skills.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: Got it?
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: And are the modules like steps, like that you walk somebody through?
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: They are organized by groupings, so they're broken up into mindfulness, interpersonal effectiveness, distress, tolerance and emotion regulation.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: Ooh, all terms, I really like, I like that.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, we're going to dig into that a little bit more, because I'm going to ask you to give me an example in a little bit Sure, before we do that, I want to talk about personal narrative, because that was what we were talking about when we met for coffee, that I was so interested in this concept of personal narrative.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: So what is a personal narrative.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: Well, in simple terms, jean, a personal narrative is our story about ourself.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: It's the story we come up with about ourself, that we tell ourself.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: It's a self-concept and it's shaped by our subjective experiences and it is not always factually correct.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: That is.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: The problem is that we come up with the story and we kind of take bits and pieces of the movie of our life.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: We string these thoughts and beliefs together to come up with a story.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: The problem, main problem, with the narrative, is that we start creating that story when we are very little kids and it is impossible for us to make sense of what's happening around us or make sense about our place in what's happening around us.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: So we come up with our own version of that.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: For better or worse, it's the script we stick to, typically until we find that that script is really getting in the way of us being effective in life.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: And then, hopefully, we go and talk to somebody and we figure out that we've got the story all mixed up.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: Now another issue with that story is that it really does determine the way you're going to show up in every aspect of your life.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: So back to the DBT.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: It affects the way you're going to show up in every aspect of your life.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: So back to the DBT.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: It affects the way you communicate with others, it affects the way you show up in your relationships.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: It affects the way you regulate your emotions, the way you're able to tolerate distress.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: So very important to figure out what your story is, ask yourself if it's true and then seek the true version of that story.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: How I'm thinking about, like maybe parts of my story right of how I was growing up, and it makes total sense when you think about I might remember situations in a certain way or I might assume or project emotions onto someone else who was part of my story that are not valid, because that might not be how it really happened.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: But how does a patient go through like?
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: Where do you find the truth?
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: How do you know what the truth is?
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: what the truth is.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: Well, that's such a great question, jean.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: I think that we need to be skillful in determining what that truth is.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: We have to remember thoughts and feelings, although incredibly valid and so powerful, they are not facts.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: Facts are facts.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: So there is a skill in DBT called check the facts.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: It is one of my favorites.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: I use it personally all the time and it kind of goes like this that's a really interesting idea and a really strong feeling, but do we have any proof that that is true, real proof?
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: So, for instance, maybe somebody's narrative is oh, I'm so stupid I can't do anything right.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: I never say anything right.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: That may be the dialogue that you're running in your head.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: However, where's your proof that that's actually true, concrete proof?
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: Do we have any?
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: And the way that it works is that if we check and we come up with nothing, we need to be willing to let that idea go and perhaps embrace a more accurate version of what the truth is.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: So how does mindset play in that If you have a thought, we'll just use you know, I'm stupid, I'm not good at anything, I can't be successful.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: And if that's your thought and you can realize through working with someone like you that it's not based in fact, so maybe that thought isn't true.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: Where does mindset play in what you do next?
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: Where does mindset play in what you do next?
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: Well, mindset is everything, because everything starts with a thought.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: The thoughts are where everything is born, because our thoughts are going to lead directly to a feeling that matches that thought.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: The feeling is a direct result of what we're thinking, and then the behavior is a springboard off of that emotion.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: So mindset is everything.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: It sets the tone for everything that's going to come later.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: So it is changing your ideas about who you are.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: And be willing to embrace the idea that there might be another way to look at things.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: Maybe we can't believe it fully in the beginning, so we can start with maybe just believing there might be another way to see this, just one other version of this story.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: So as soon as we can shift our perception, even just a millimeter, everything follows that.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: Then the feeling will match the new thought that we have, and then there's no way that our behavior can be the same, because everything else is realigned.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Interesting, so it feels to me like it's a process.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's a journey.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: Yes, how do you help your clients through that process on a weekly basis, because they still have to be living life.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Well, I think that the first step is to figure out what your story is in the first place what is the story?
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: And then helping them figure out where in the world we came up with the story.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: How did we get this version of yourself?
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: Oftentimes, others see us more accurately than we see ourself, and not that we need to invest everything into other people's opinions, because that's a dangerous game as well.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: However, again, just be willing to entertain the idea that there might be another way of looking at things and looking at yourself.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: So it's uncovering the story, going back, replaying, going back into childhood not for too long, just long enough to figure out how we may have gotten this version of the story.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: And then take a look at how that story is working out in your current state, in the present.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Does it match anything?
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: Does it match what you're feeling on the inside?
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: Is your outer world reflective of what's going on on the inside?
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: Have you built your life around the idea that this story is actually true?
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: So getting people to see where the story is interfering with them being effective in this life?
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: The limiting self-beliefs that we have are real barriers in us becoming everything that we are meant to be.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: Take my story, for instance.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: I could have very easily told myself that in my 40s it was way too late to change careers.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: Stay where you are, play it safe, don't take any risks.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: Right In the story of myself, that could have very easily went another way.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: So I think we need to be willing to challenge the story and look for other ways that we might be able to be more effective.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: And our stories.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Jeez, I feel like I have so many of my own personal stories.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, I have to say, as I shared with you, jean, I read your book and I was thinking about this narrative conversation, as I was even reading through your book and your ideas of yourself and I was able to see very specific places where you change your story of yourself.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: Your version of you has changed multiple times throughout your life.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: However, if you didn't bump up against yourself that first time, I can't imagine what you would have continued to believe based on your thoughts about yourself from when you were a kid, right from my upbringing.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: You know things like you are not as valuable as them.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: You don't have the money that they have.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: You can't play in that same field, in that same sandbox.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: I was raised in a very wealthy town and we didn't have any money, and so the narrative was like but you're not like the other kids.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: And then you know that's why you don't have friends.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: You're not like them because we don't have money, you can't have the things that they have.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: It's just a fact which is part of the story that has, you know, gotten me to where I am, which is to sort of prove that story wrong.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: It's sort of like I'm on a mission to prove the story wrong.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: But what's also so interesting and you can tell me if this comes up with your clients too I think there are parts of our story and our narrative which are actually very positive, but we lose sight of them, especially when we're in times of struggle.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: We lose sight of the positive parts of our narrative, and I'll use my mother in my example.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: Right, I have a challenging relationship with my mother.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: Anyone who knows me, has read my book, knows that but there are times that I can reflect back on some of the incredible strengths I got from my mother.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: Like my mother, was an early pioneer of being independent, of diversity, of inclusion, of accepting everyone else, and so there were some of the values that my mother stood for that were ingrained in me very young, and sometimes I forget.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: That ability to do anything and be anybody actually did come from that story when I was younger and that's a positive in that story.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: Yes, you're absolutely right, jean, and I think that this is a great example of how every single attribute we have has pros and cons to it every single one, right.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: So, with you and your mom, you got that incredible strength from her and you used it to be so many pros in your life.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: We can also see where that strength was a con, in that it prohibited her from being able to engage in other areas of her life, right?
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: So we have this thing called confirmation bias, and the focus is on information that supports our idea about ourself.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: So we are always looking for the proof that these stories are true, whether positive or the negative aspect of it.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: So you took the strength that you saw in your mom and you used it to gain and to be better in life.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: So it isn't always negative and nothing is all good or all bad.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: We can say that for every single attribute that we have, and I feel like part of our responsibility and our job to ourself in life is to get clear on what our attributes are and to also recognize where they're working for us and, most importantly, where they're working against us, and try to balance that out.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: So it's not that we want to remove these aspects of ourself.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: We just want to be the most effective people we can be, and that's by balancing those attributes effectively.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: It's true, and you mentioned something that I think is so important that I want to make sure I just summarize, which is that it's not all black and white.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: And so when someone comes into you and it's like I can't be successful, or I'm terrible at this, or I'm a shitty person or some of these terms we tend to use to describe ourselves, especially when we feel really low or in a really traumatic situation, as in a totality of negativity, and so you pointing out that we're not any of anything, it's not all positive or all negative.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: And so it's trying to help your clients identify that for themselves.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely, and understanding that, if you could imagine it in this way, jean, a giant pie with hundreds of slices in it.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: That's what we are.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: We are comprised of parts.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: We are not one dimensional.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: We're humans.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: We're complicated, we're multi-dimensional people, we're layered, we're multifaceted lots of different parts to ourself.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: So in the world of DBT, one of the core principles is that two opposites coexist.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: So I think a lot of the times we get trapped in our own labels.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: So, for instance, if you're a strong person, you need to just be strong.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: Dbt tells us that you can be strong and have weak moments.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: You could be smart and have flaky moments.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: You could be committed and feel non-committed sometimes.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: It gives us the room and the freedom to breathe a little bit so that we don't have to be one thing.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: Another core principle in DBT is to travel the middle path, staying away from the extremes.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: Instead of black and white understanding, we live in the gray.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: The middle path is always the best path.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: Stay away from the all or nothings, so that if we're strong, I have to be strong all the time, and then, if we see ourself as weak, that I show up in weak ways all the time, you know, the truth is that most of us fall into the bucket of good people capable of bad things, right.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: So it's just understanding the balance there, so that you don't ever have to just be one thing.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: You can dip your toe in the pool of every single slice in the pie, and we're meant to do that.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: We're meant to explore ourselves and to discover all the different aspects about ourselves, and to embrace them all without judgment.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: Ah, without judgment.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: That's a big one, that's the tricky part, that is so hard.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: I know how do you help your clients not judge themselves, Because I feel like we are just wired to judge ourselves and society judges us and social media judges us and our worthiness.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: Very often for so many people it feels like it's coming from the outside, Like are people liking me?
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: Am I doing a good job?
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: Am I making a lot of money?
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Do I have a lot of followers, especially as a small business owner?
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: Do I have a lot of followers?
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Do I have a lot of clients?
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: It's like you're constantly judged.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: How do you help your clients with that?
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: That's a big one.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: How do you help your clients with that.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: That's a big one.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: Well, I think what you're describing is external validation needing to be validated from the outside in, and I try to help folks do the opposite and self-validate so that we don't need the external validation.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: Now don't get me wrong.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: Okay, we all love a compliment, we all love to be told that we're amazing, we've done something amazing, we look amazing, etc.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great when we can get it.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: The truth is, jean, sometimes the world just isn't going to throw you a bone, right.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Just isn't.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: And we need to feel good on those days too.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: So it's finding the validation from within Now to do that and to examine yourself without the judgment.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: That's not an easy thing either, and Marsha Linehan, who created DBT, she knew that so much that one of the skills in DBT is called observe without judgment, and that latter part being the most important, that we are observing ourself and observing our patterns without the judgmental piece of it, replacing the judgment with a sense of curiosity and instead of wagging our finger at ourselves, instead being curious, being curious.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Huh, I wonder why I think like that.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: I wonder why I feel like this.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: I wonder why I just did that, right, being more gentle with ourself and without sounding too cliche.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: Every relationship we have externally is going to depend 1000% on the relationship we have with ourself, and if we are constantly judging ourself, there's no way that we can't do that for others, right?
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: So we eliminate the judgment towards others when we can eliminate it to ourself.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: There's no way we can offer someone else that grace if we cannot even offer it to ourself, right?
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: So, again, I think that if we could learn to look at our attributes not as good or bad, just as is, and look to see where they're working for you and working against you.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, we can even take something as being a perfectionist, right that, you know.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: Maybe that has some negative connotation to it, you know.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: Or perfectionist type A, all of that.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Well, you know what?
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: I've met a lot of perfectionists in my time and they are incredibly competent, effective people, right.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: So a perfectionist typically does a great job attention to detail, great performance, all of those things.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: So many pros, where it gets to be a little sticky and the cons is, you know, typically nothing's ever good enough, right.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: So it's just learning to balance that.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: But just getting well-versed in the language of yourself without the judgment, replace it with curiosity, without the judgment.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: Replace it with curiosity.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: Oh so you said so many words.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: I had like a light bulb moment on some of those words.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: You said the word sticky.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh my goodness, I love that because you're taking a term.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: You were talking about perfectionism and where perfectionism gets sticky, and it's not about you.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: Purposely, I know you chose your words carefully.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: You purposely didn't say where perfectionism gets sticky and it's not about you.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: Purposely, I know you chose your words carefully you purposely didn't say where perfectionism becomes negative, you use the word sticky.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: So I just want everyone to hear that word and really think about that word, because that was really powerful.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: I loved that.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: You said curiosity, and I think we look at being curious like I'm curious to learn, I'm curious to learn new hobbies I have never thought about personally, about being curious about why I might be doing something and thinking about my personal narrative.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: I've never really turned that mirror around with the curiosity in that sense of why I'm always just like it needs to just be fixed, not necessarily why I'm like I just need to learn how to do it differently.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: So I've never had that mirror racked to me, which is an aha moment.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: And the last aha moment was like oh my goodness, so you're talking about judging and I always say to people my daughter will look at me.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: Sometimes she'll be like you are so judgy and I'm like no, I'm not.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: It's like yes, you are, you are such a judgy person.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: And you were saying that and I was like huh, if I'm perceived as being judgy by my daughter, that means somewhere in there I'm also judging myself.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: Yes, and I should turn around and look at what ways am I judging myself first, because there is where there's growth.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: I mean that is it right?
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: It is working on that relationship with yourself and maybe just trying the next time you catch yourself, because we're all guilty, right, the trick is to interrupt that process.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: Don't let it go, interrupt it.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: Have the insight to recognize when it's happening.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: Right, that's something we develop over time.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: Is insight into ourself.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: Catch yourself and redirect it.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: How can I replace that judgment with curiosity?
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: And as far as the relationship with others, I mean, I believe that everyone that you encounter in life is a full length mirror and mirroring back to you everything you need to know about yourself.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: We learn that through the interactions with other people, the way we engage, the way other people trigger us, excite us, anger us, all the things.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: We learn everything about ourself through those interactions.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: We learn what we like, what we don't like, who we do well with, who we don't do well with, right, and instead of turning it and pointing the finger back at them, just use that mechanism as a tool to learn more about yourself.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that and I always say it's.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: If you're unhappy with something that's happening, it's a reflection of something that's happening within you.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: And if you want your environment outside to change or you want the people that you're interacting with to change, you need to first look at you and what's going on with you, because they are, I always say, the mirror, I always say they're a reflection of you, always and everything that's happening to you.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: It's all just energy.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: I talk about this all the time.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: We're all just energy, and so if you feel like everything is happening negatively, well, then you really need to start with yourself.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: And what energy are you putting out there?
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: Because we're all just energy and like attracts like.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: Right, right, and that would also give you a glimpse into the filter that you're using to see and hear the world.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: So there is this language app out there called the Babbel app and it's a language interpretation app.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: And I like to say that we have a Babbel app right here in the front of our forehead and we take information in and it runs through that filter and then it spits out the message to us.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: We have to understand that filter is directly connected to your narrative, so the way we take information in and our perception is not often accurate because it runs through that filter system and that filter shades the way we see everything and it determines the way we hear everything.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: Right, that somebody could say something and our conception of it is completely misinterpreted because it got all jumbled up in our story about ourself.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: Sometimes people don't even have to say anything.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: It could just be a look that they give you and we'll decide that we know what that look means and that is based on some previous experience we've had with somebody looking at us in that way and what we decided at that moment maybe 30 years ago what that meant.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: And we will say, yep, that's what it is and we'll stick to it.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: And the more we think something and the more intense our feelings are, the more we have the ability to convince ourself that that is the truth.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: We've all been guilty of saying things like no, I really feel it, I know it's true, I just know it, I'm feeling, I know it is.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: Or you know what I've been thinking about this, I've been thinking about it a lot, I know it's true.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Again, our thoughts and feelings so powerful, so valid, just not always based in factual truth.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: Such an important message.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: So what and this might be an interesting question If you don't want to answer it, you can tell me you don't want to answer it.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: But for someone like you who knows and has the tools and knows how to rewire your personal narrative, knows the mindset, knows the way to catch the sticky, Do you feel like your brain is like that?
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: You are just in constant therapy with yourself?
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's a great question, jean, and I guess the short answer is yes, yes, yes, I keep accountable.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: That being said, as you said, it is an ongoing process.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: I think the most important thing we have to remember is that our lives and the life that we have is a whole entire process of learning, growing, evolving, shifting and changing.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: That requires a lot of patience with ourself.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: We need to give ourselves room to grow, room to make mistakes, room to recognize things.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: We learn through our errors.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: We learn through making mistakes.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: For me personally also, personally, also honestly, I see a little bit of myself in every single person I speak to.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: I grow through helping other people.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: Going back to those days doing the women's outpatient program at the hospital, I could remember looking into the faces of all of these women, just thinking just that that I see myself in every single one of your eyes.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: I can recognize a little bit of myself.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: So maybe that is my way of having this accelerated process throughout life that I've got this great gift of learning every single day through the work that I do with other people, where I can really recognize my own stuff through them and little pieces of myself, little parts of your pie.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, correct, I love that, that's good.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: Oh, I'm so glad you didn't say I'm just perfect.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: I got it all figured out Please.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: Hardly.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we always say in the coaching world, like every good coach should have a coach, and if you go to hire a coach and they don't have a coach, you should be really curious about why they don't have a coach.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: Because we are constantly learning and growing and evolving and so to think that like we're done, we're never done, and that's part of the journey is to keep growing and learning and learning new things.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: No, and I think, jean, so many people in this field and so many of my friends and peers, we got into this field because we were seeking answers ourself.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: We needed to understand things about ourself, about life, about all of it, about how it all went down.
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: So I think that I'm always mindful of that.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: What got me into this in the first place?
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: That is because of my own story and challenging myself and the stories I've come up with about myself and understanding how limiting that belief system was and how false it was, and understanding where it all came from.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: And the people around us, although well-intended, sometimes they just can't show up in ways that we would have wanted.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: Right Back to your own story, and I'm sure the difficulties that you had with your mom and the way that she couldn't show up for you in the ways that you wanted to, those aspects created part of your own narrative, not intended to.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: Just that's just the way that it goes.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: Right, well, and what you said, something there that's so important, which is also being able to recognize that.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: I'll use my mother as an example.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: My mother has her own story and my mother has her own narrative and she looks at life through her story and through her narrative and it took me years to figure that out and it doesn't allow me to accept her behavior, but it does allow me to take some grace and not personalize some of her behaviors now, because that is her story and her narrative and in some ways, she doesn't know how to do it any differently because of her narrative.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: That is your perception of what is real in this life, right, and you remind us of a great point, and, being a parent yourself, you know this right, so that you had the gift of self-discovery and gaining insight throughout your life.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: Not everyone signs up for that gig.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: Not everyone even understands that it's available to them, that they just don't understand.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: So you have to remember that Something you just said, that you haven't accepted.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: It, which brings me to a term in DBT that we use a lot, and it's called radical acceptance, and this is a very difficult one.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: Radical acceptance asks us to accept all the things we don't want to, the things we don't like, the things we push back on, the things that have caused us pain and harm.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: We don't want to accept them.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: However, go back to Marsha Linehan.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: Her definition of suffering is our inability to accept reality on reality's terms, because we keep coming back to things over and over, expecting them to be the way we want them to be, and then we're incredibly disappointed when that doesn't happen.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: And we meet with people, places and things all the time.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: Now, we don't have to like things.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: We don't have to give our stamp of approval on everything either.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: However, to refuse to the reality of a situation.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: A person is going to be painful in the beginning.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: Pain subsides though.
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: The intensity of pain decreases over time, right.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: The suffering, though, just keeps us swimming in it over and over and over again, right.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: So, although you don't have to like the choices your mom made you don't have to like her disposition.
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: You don't have to like the way she approaches life.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: You don't have to like the way she parented you very much have to accept that that is the reality of who she is, and without that, you will stay suffering in that relationship.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: That is.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: I'm like I'm getting therapy.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Guys.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: This is amazing.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: But you're right, it's accepting that she is who she is and she is who she is because of her narrative, and just accepting that.
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: That is just.
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: I love how you said that is just the reality and that is.
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: Those are just the facts, that's it Just.
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: You said that is just the reality and that is.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: Those are just the facts.
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: That's it.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: Just the facts, man, just the facts.
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: They're just the facts, right.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: And then when you look at it like it's just the facts, you're also I at least can see how over time I could, I could remove the emotion from the facts because it isn't an attack on me, it isn't intentional.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: Even if it is, it doesn't really matter.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: It's just the facts.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: Because it isn't an attack on me, it isn't intentional.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: Even if it is, it doesn't really matter.
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: It's just the facts Right.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: And I think that that concept could help us come to terms with some of the things that we've done, that have happened in our own lives.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: Right, there's parts of our story that we must accept.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we have to accept them because it's true and it happened.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: We don't have to like it, we don't have to approve of it, we don't have to even align with it.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: However, we must accept that it happened.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: We must accept we did the thing, we did it, we said it.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: It happened Right.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, it existed, it's out there it is that's it Out in the ethers.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: Yep, we've all done things.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: Yes, now once you accept it.
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: If that's something you don't like, you can be responsible for changing it.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: You could pivot, you can change course.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: However, to deny the existence of something just keeps you suffering.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: to deny the existence of something just keeps you suffering.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: You're so wise, oh my goodness, thank you.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: I feel like I've learned so much, so hopefully everybody who's listening feels like they've learned the same things, or just little nuggets along the way of what you said, because you've said so many powerful things, and before I move into the last two things I want to ask you to close, I just want to make the statement that sometimes I think therapists get such a bad rap because people feel like they go to therapy and they just talk and no one ever gives them anything tangible to walk away with.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: And what I love about the work that you do is you actually help people with tools.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: You're not telling them what to do, but you're giving them some tools and ways of thinking that can help them make change, and so I thank you for that.
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you so much.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: I think the most important piece is empowering people to know that they have it within them to make the changes, that if we can take our power back and stop giving it out to the world and oftentimes, jean, we try to control everyone and everything that's going on, and that is our way to feel powerful, and that is not where our power lies.
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: Our power lies in the way we respond to our environment, and we are fully in control of that.
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: So I think probably one of the greatest ahas is giving people that that, honestly, in the end, you don't even need me.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: You can figure all of this out on your own and you can choose the way you respond by gaining that insight, doing your homework into understand why it is you're reacting and responding in that way.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: That's where our personal power lies.
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: Yes, oh, that's beautiful.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be creating a little, real little mini clip of that so we can listen to that on repeat.
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: All right, I have two things I want to talk about before we have to go, because I've taken up so much of your time and I've gotten my own personal therapy session, so thank you.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: First one is I love to ask my guests that are in the personal growth wellness space what does personal wellness look like for you.
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: what it means, without sounding too corny, is living a thousand percent authentically.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: And let me just pull the curtain back on that, because that is the big words that are on stage Now.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: What's behind that is a commitment to everything that I was just saying, a commitment to doing that deep dive into yourself, uncovering that narrative, ironing it out, getting a story that's actually accurate.
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: That is wellness.
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: Living authentically is living your true story, not the fabricated version of the narrative that we come up with.
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: So it's doing all the work and then getting out on stage and being your authentic self.
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: And why?
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: Because you discovered who that authentic self really is.
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: That is wellness.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: When your outer world feels reflective on what's going on on the inside and they match, that's wellness.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: And you are living proof of doing that and doing the work.
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, perfect, okay.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: One last question I ask all my guests to recommend a book, if they wouldn't mind, that has impacted them either professionally or personally, because I do feel that books change lives and I read most of the books that my guests recommend because I just am continually learning.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: So is there a book that you would like our listeners to read or recommend that they read?
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: Yes, this was a tough one because, as you can imagine, there's thousands of great ones out there.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: It's hard to pick one.
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: There's so many great self-help books out there, so many guests are like I can't pick one, yeah, however, this was easy.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: This was easy.
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the Alchemist.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: Oh, yes, absolutely hands down the Alchemist.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: Okay, the story in the Alchemist really boils down to it's not getting the thing that we want the most in life.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: That's life.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: It's discovering who you are in the process of getting the things.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: It's the journey that forces you to find all the aspects of yourself right.
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: That is the gift in life is that that journey creates who you're going to become.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: So, again, going back to the radical acceptance of accepting all the parts, the good parts, the not so good parts, the happy parts, the painful parts, understanding that they were all part of the process of you becoming who you are today, I can tell you wholeheartedly, jean, there's no way I could be sitting here in this chair, in this office, doing any of the work that I have done, without all the painful parts of my own journey that really uncovered everything that I was meant to be in this life and parts that I am sure I haven't even uncovered yet.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: There is still so much more of the journey ahead of me, so many rocks that I haven't even turned over yet.
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: So it definitely is the journey.
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: All right, I'm going to have to get that book, because you're not the first person who's recommended that one and I haven't read it yet.
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: That's a must read for sure.
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: A must read, okay good, thank you so much.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: I will put in the show notes how everyone can get in touch with you, but I would assume that you accept clients anywhere.
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: People don't have to come and see you in person in New Canaan.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: Correct me if I'm wrong about that, but I would think if there was someone who doesn't live here in Connecticut who was interested in working with you.
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: Do it via Zoom, is that correct?
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: That is correct in the states that I am licensed to practice in.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: So yes, we offer in-person and telehealth in the three states that I'm licensed to do clinical work in.
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: Perfect, I love it.
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but sometimes you know what, even in Connecticut, I find sometimes I don't necessarily have time to drive and park and, like you know, you don't ever want that to be the excuse.
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: So there are people that I've worked with for various modalities here in Connecticut that don't even live very far away from me and people are like, why don't you go in person?
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: I'm like because that is an extra hour.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: I have to say that's an extra hour and so sometimes Zoom is better.
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, zoom, we can do Zoom, zoom in the state of Connecticut and because we are, sucht is and I just find it really fascinating, so thank you for your time.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: Thank you for sharing your knowledge with everybody, being so open to it and for helping us and for just being a really fabulous guest, and I hope you have a beautiful day.
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: It was so great to be here.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: Thanks, jean, okay, and we'll stay in touch.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: We'll talk soon.
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: Thank you for joining us for another episode of the House of Germar podcast, where wellness starts within.
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: We appreciate you being a part of our community and hope you felt inspired and motivated by our guest.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: If you enjoyed this episode, please write us a review and share it with friends.
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: Building our reach on YouTube and Apple podcasts will help us get closer to our mission to empower 1 million women to live all in.
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: You can also follow us on Instagram at House of germar and sign up to be a part of our monthly inspiration newsletter through our website, house of germarcom.
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: If you or someone you know would be a good guest on the show, please reach out to us at podcast at House of germarcom.
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: This has been a House of Germar production with your host, jean Collins.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: Thank you for joining our house.