Latest / The Complete Agent - The Podcast For Premium Real Estate Agents / 132. Why Estate Agents Need To Stop Hiding Behind Technology Ft. Amy Bibiris

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132. Why Estate Agents Need To Stop Hiding Behind Technology Ft. Amy Bibiris · The Complete Agent - The Podcast For Premium Real Estate Agents

• speaker-0: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Complete Agent podcast where each week we get together to talk all things a state agency. My name is James Kendall and this week there are no Northern Monkeys on the podcast. There are no Dave Walberton. There are no Ian Storey, but we do have representing the Northern part of the country, Michelle Smith. We have a very special guest today. Amy Biberius as well joins us. Amy, did I say that correctly? I remembered from the other day. Thank you so much for joining us. Now we have a tradition on the podcast every week where we ask everyone how their week's been. So seeing as you are a very special guest, how has your week been? speaker-1: It's been good, lots going on. Actually had a clean out of our company storage unit, which felt very cleansing because it has all the conference kit in it. So that was good. ⁓ And I'm looking forward to today. Obviously it's the live open house webinar, the 24 hour. Yes. I'm looking forward to getting that on after this and just that'll be my background for today's working day. speaker-0: You're doing confessions you said, that right? I am. speaker-1: intrigued to see, I mean I've got a stack ton of confessions as an ex-agent so and even as a supplier to be honest so. speaker-0: Have you ⁓ anonymously tipped any in? you or? speaker-1: I haven't. No, I haven't. I'm not, to be honest, I'm one of these people who it's like, you may as just go for it. Like, everyone's done stuff, stupid stuff. speaker-0: Does that have interest then? Is there anything that you'd want to admit to? I mean, I'd be happy to do one and you could do one, Michelle, if you're at agency confession. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, I've got so many. ⁓ Quite a few. I mean, it's not really a confession, but I had to value a house where porn was filmed. Yeah. That was quite good fun. ⁓ The even funnier part was that the owner didn't realise. And then it got even better because I met the owner outside the front who is a lovely lady, middle aged-ish. And speaker-0: I speaker-1: She was in tears when I got to the valuation. Yeah. Because it was, their property was rented and she told them she was popping around with an agent to get the house valued. And she walked in and realized what her house was being used for. They had all the equipment and she was obviously mortifyingly embarrassed. And I'm quite, I'm like, ⁓ don't worry about it. It's fine. Look, I've seen worse kind of thing. Yeah. speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: turned out the tenant was her daughter. ⁓ So that was a good one. yeah, lots of, ⁓ know. I in Central Reading for quite a chunk of my career and I had it all. mean, prostitute houses, drug houses where you couldn't go in the garden because there are heroin needles scattered around the garden. Lots of cannabis growing factories. All sorts. So yeah. speaker-0: Did you give it a hard sell? about you Michelle, have you had any spicy confessions at United States? speaker-2: God, do you know, I always say you could absolutely write a book, couldn't you? The things that happen and then the things that some people will be shocked by, you just think, that was all right, you know, that was nothing untoward. ⁓ which did you, I've had some really funny ones where I was selling a really nice apartment on the seafront in St Anne's and the couple were lovely, but they were really kind of socially awkward. They didn't ever want to be in when we did a viewing, which was fine. I did the viewing once and showed they had this like walking wardrobe. So you just pulled the doors back and it revealed itself. Anyway, they'd obviously not got out in time when I came. And instead of just saying, ⁓ we're off, know, thanks very much. They hid in the walking wardrobe. So when I opened the door for the viewers, They were literally both just stood like staring with a vacant look on the face. I was like, ⁓ hello. I'm like, what the hell is happening here? speaker-0: I'm buying it! speaker-1: scared me I think I would have jumped out of my skin like speaker-2: Well, I was like, are you on your way out? And they were like, ⁓ yes, yes. But they had like the raincoat on and like shopping bags. I was just like, what the hell? Well, do you know what? That just always tickled me. I've had people locked in ⁓ a vestibule before because the lock had broken going out and the door had shut behind us. That was good. No mobile phone. I've had a lift. speaker-0: Maybe it was a day. speaker-2: breakdown in between floors and everything in between. So yeah, there's always a good story. speaker-0: Mine are a bit anti-climatic to be fair. I had a new build development once and I really needed the toilet and I went to the toilet and there was no water on, so you can make the most of that and what you speaker-1: so many guy estate agents that have gone to a new build site and gone to the toilet. speaker-0: Yeah. Why? It's coffee. It's coffee. mean, even then, to be fair, like, I mean, I wasn't that, I'm, I'm a certain age now, I'm 40 plus, soon as coffee hits your lips, it's time to go. But, like even back then, I'm just thinking, actually, no, another one actually, just on, ⁓ I suppose on a slightly more seedy side, we, ⁓ had a client actually that, ⁓ had like a, like a floral box, like it, no, have you heard of Cath Kidston? Cath Kidston, it? Like, know, that florally kind of like, ⁓ box. And we were doing the marketing, preparing the marketing in their bedroom and they had this Cath Kittsdon box. we'd literally just gone to move it because it didn't fit in the photo and the box opened and literally out spilled everything that they clearly do recreationally with one another at the weekends and the evenings. we were ⁓ literally placing it back in, put it back there. And the lady said, ⁓ was there a box you moved at all? And said, ⁓ yeah, we just picked it up and moved it. Like we didn't dare say anything like what was in it or what we'd seen or this, that and the other. But it's always the quiet ones. That's all I'm going to say. But anyway, moving on from that, Michelle, how's your week been? speaker-2: good week. Both my kids are back at school so this literally is the first morning where I've not had the kids at home for the speaker-0: Is that why you're so smiley today? Yeah! Full of energy. speaker-2: Yeah. ⁓ God. mean, I love them dearly, but you know, juggling is just full on. so that's been positive. I have just finished a proposal for a client to do really like a fractional operational director role and integrate the processes and systems and SOPs and embedding it within the team. So just waiting to hear back on that. And I'm just planning a day next week with a client who is really pushing for growth and has just got some of the basics that need really solidifying and their team to kind of run with them because they're doing a lot of the outer stuff, which is great branding, positioning, but they keep getting tripped up by the other stuff really. My day with them next week is really to find a way forward of quickly rectifying that and getting the team to take it on board. So yeah, lots of exciting stuff going on to get my teeth into. speaker-0: Cool. So I've been, well, was again, my kids went back today. I've had a holiday as well. We went, we came back from Mauritius ⁓ last week. Work-wise, been peaks and troughs. So I spoke to Michelle actually off air about this, but I've been, it's been quite difficult for me in the last week. Cause I've got a client that actually became a friend over the last sort of five or six years. And they were probably 90 % of the way building a new property. And the last day of my holiday last week, I got a call from somebody basically saying that unfortunately they'd taken their own life. And I didn't really sink in at the time. And it's strange, isn't it? Like, cause me and Richard, his name was, have been talking probably... every other day for the best part of a year on this development. I'd acted for them before, they weren't just a client. We didn't go out for drinks or anything like that, or we didn't go around each other's houses, but we had a really good friendly relationship and we'd joke about certain things and you kind of really get to know someone. It really kind of knocked me for six actually in the last week where I thought I was thinking to myself, is there anything I could have said, anything more I could have done? I suppose, you what I really want to come from this, you know, I don't want it to be completely sad about what we're about to talk about today. But if anything, you know, we get probably three, four, sometimes 500 listeners in a week to this podcast. And I think it's just important to know that like, if you are listening to this and you are going for a bad patch, it can do is just a bad patch. You know, speak, speak to someone, you know, don't ever take it to that extreme. There's always something that you can do. There's always a solution. even if it doesn't feel like there is a light at the end of the tunnel, things, time is probably the greatest healer there is. What feels like the walls are closing in now and everything's dark and nothing's positive. Things do change. Things will always turn a corner. So if anyone is listening to this, and that's how I appreciate this is a bit deep, but if you are feeling that way, like do speak to someone because there is always a way. Anyway, I just wanted to say that because it's been on my mind and I also thought to myself, well look, if there is anyone listening to the pod that feels this way, it's, yeah, I just thought it was an important message because it's been on my mind and I thought, you know, it wouldn't be right. It wouldn't be authentic if I didn't mention it. But let's get down to business. speaker-1: Let's give the Boys Club a bit of a shout out. So Ben Madden's Boys Club. Yes. Which is there for people in the property world and our industry. And if anyone's feeling like the world's against them right now, just reach out to any of the lads in the group. There's a Facebook group or Ben himself. Yeah. they're a great bunch of people ⁓ and they're all there to help support men. Yeah. speaker-0: It's a really good show. speaker-1: Because our world is somewhat stressful at times and it's not fun. And you can, think as a business owner, know, hear all the time that business owners feel very lonely and by themselves. And when people don't have the support like you have James with your group and the complete agent, you know, some people don't have those sort of almost support groups and they honestly turn into that. I was part of what was Property Academy now, Leaders Inc. And, you know, my suppliers group, we were in the afternoon. you know, after we'd had the learning and the training, it would often turn into a support network and group and we'd be helping each other through problems, going through solutions of different issues and struggles we've got and most sessions though it is. Yeah. And that's okay. Like you need that outlet. So yeah. speaker-2: I agree and I think women generally are better at kind of asking for help and support. You know, I know the Women in a State Agency group that's so active and people openly ask for support and it's given back. I think it is more difficult for men for whatever reason. ⁓ So yeah, I think that's a great shout Amy and you know, anything that you can do to be part of any community. where there's like-minded people who understand what you're going through, even if it's not a state agency specific, I think is really important, especially these days in kind of division and worry and all the things that are whipped up in, you know, culture. speaker-0: Yeah, I think sometimes with with guys, we're to spend too long on this, like, think a lot of it is ego led sometimes. And when I say ego led, it doesn't necessarily mean like, you the big I am, the ego is there to protect you. And sometimes, in different forms, it's not necessarily, you know, my face to the world and, you know, my reputation, how I look, you know, sometimes it can be, you know, how you your you perceive yourself to other people as well. You know, how are people are going to perceive me if I want to talk about this? How are people going to perceive, you know, how I'm dealing with, know, if I'm in a position because sometimes I suppose the strongest people are those that need to help because you know, you're taking away there's different like, you know me, I'm love an Instagram reel. ⁓ Algorithm I'm on like it's crazy. But like, there's this one algorithm where, one reel, sorry, where It's like a, almost like a cartoon and this guy, or say guy, it's just a person like, you don't know if it's male or female, but they're taking all of these different black things from people with hugs. And then all of a sudden, like, don't know if you've seen it, but like they eventually after they finished, so I'll probably articulate that really rubbish, but let me start that again. They're basically, everyone's got like, it's representative of this, like black cloud inside them. And this one person goes and hugs them. or talks to them and a bit of the black cloud goes into that person. And then they keep going to all these different people throughout this like ⁓ small movie. And eventually they just fill up with the black cloud. And then it's them that's the one that's in trouble after they finished hugging everyone else and sorting everyone else's problems out. It's them that ultimately are the person that needs the help. And I think sometimes, you know, the sometimes the strongest people in society, the people that people go to for their problems are the ones that sometimes need somebody else. And also maybe themselves need to realise that they need that other person to lean on and they need that other person to talk to. yeah, I just thought that was worth mentioning as well. speaker-2: Do you know, I don't want to, well, I can see a rabbit hole looming. think my foot's in it, but yeah, with coaching and what you say is right, you know, you often deal with situations where people's mindset and beliefs are either limiting them or causing them issues or whatever it may be. And there are times with clients where you do become their support. And for me, I know I'm really aware that if I have a lot of that with clients, I need to decompress and I need to have some supervision or, you know, speak to a mentor because you can take it on board. So I think you've always got to be aware of where you're at and what your capacity is and to make sure kind of your cup is full. So yeah, interesting. think it's very much about self-awareness and looking after yourselves. speaker-0: 100%. So Amy, you are our very special guest today and we'd like to dive deep into the mind of Amy and your experiences. We didn't sign up for that, we didn't warn you about this, did we? This is an 18 rated podcast. So take us back then. So for anyone that obviously, know, on social media, I feel like I know you even though we've never met. I think I this the other day when I talked to you on the phone, like, because you you kind of in that social media bubble of where you see people, you see their names pop up, you you might communicate with them online or you might see that, you know, they've, they've done a podcast elsewhere with somebody else that, know, cause I think you've been on Gates's podcast, you, before, I think I've listened to that, that episode, some time ago now, I think. speaker-1: Yeah, that was a long time ago. ⁓ speaker-0: I listen, I'm one of them people that I've, I think I've listened, was chatting to Simon about this the other day actually. think I've listened to pretty much every one of his episodes and I think he's listened to pretty much every one of ours. So like, almost feel like, you know what it's like when you listen to a podcast, you do feel like you get to know these people. And so for anyone that doesn't know who you are, that's been living under a rock, who are you? What's your name? Where'd you come from? What'd you do? Talk us through the journey. speaker-1: you've got all Scylla on me. I mean very briefly, so 16 years as an agent, so 12 of those with Romans, which you know I can't express enough how much you know those 12 years made me who I am today. I'm so grateful for the start I had in my agency career with those guys and speaker-0: Yeah, open all our laughs. speaker-1: Then four years with an independent agent, which was fantastic, so he did sort of the other side of it. And I went from working sort of central Reading and West Reading to a very bougie village and was suddenly in three million pound houses. So that was great because I got to see sort of like the prime and super prime area as well. oddly got on with Millionaires quite well. They just actually, I want quite a lot of instructions. I don't forget one lady. said to me, I always used to ask, you know, why, why did you decide to work with us? And she said, cause she didn't wear a pinstripe suit. It's no, it was literally down to that one thing. you know, that was a 3.5, 3.6 million pound house. It's just, that's crazy. Like you made your decision because I didn't wear a pinstripe suit. That's nuts. But yeah, and then I got to point in my agency career after kind of 16 years where it was like, what next? I've been a branch manager for 10 years. The next kind of normal route in agencies then to become, guess, sort of an area or regional manager, director, and oversee several branches. And the more I thought about that, it just wasn't what I wanted to do. I didn't, I hate spreadsheets. And I don't. you know, for me, when we were in my offices, our area or regional director was not liked. Like, you start my whole career, used to dread them coming into the office, because all they did was kind of beat you up about your targets. We called my last one was actually we called him a Dementor. So if you're a Harry Potter fan, you'll know what a Dementor is. And he was actually a fun sponge, sucked the soul out of the office every time he came in. And it just, I didn't want to be that person, but I wanted to progress. wanted to go further. And then we'd just landed Spectre in our office and I was playing around with this new bit of shiny tech. And before that, all we'd had is our CRM. So I had ReapIt and then I had an MRI bit of software and we'd never had anything like it. And it was like, all of a sudden I've gone from having spreadsheets of addresses and trying to keep like my tout list on a spreadsheet to write letters to and do mail merges. There, God. And literally going out and getting door numbers to having Specter land in your lap and you're like, what is this wizardry? Like this is magic, literally. speaker-0: Yeah, mail merge, yeah, of course. You speaker-2: this. speaker-1: And then because that was kind of at the same time, I was thinking about, what next? I then started speaking to a recruiter who was getting quite heavily involved in the prop tech kind of world. And that was sort of, was really starting to get traction. was sort of, was starting to, people were starting to use or agents were starting to sort of be aware of this sort of new tech that was coming around. I started speaking to a property data company called Sprift. And I, when I saw the product, I was like, Okay, this is cool. I can literally type in any address and see everything about the house, flat or whatever. And I think, know, for me, and sort of in the supplier space, if I was look at it as if I would use it as an agent, then other agents would and it potentially has got legs and is going to be successful. I saw Sprift and thought, okay, this is something quite cool. Cause I've just seen Spectre, I've suddenly got, and that's, you know, sending letters out automatically to all your touts and ⁓ my goodness, that's cool. Then you see this property data and you're like, ⁓ wow, okay. This is, this is going to really change things. ⁓ So yeah, did launch Sprift. So I was with them for just over three years. And that was amazing to watch, go through that kind of almost like emergence of tech. And it went a bit crazy. mean, literally we went in, there were tech companies, think there's something now about crazy, like 800 prop tech companies. They were all on kerfuffle, I think. And we've kind of gone, yeah, really into the tech world. We're still way behind, know, FinTech and another industry's part. It's been really an interesting journey to watch agents go from having, you know, cause like when I joined Agenci, it was applicant box. Yeah. Computer. Yeah. speaker-0: Hi, box. speaker-2: This one. One email? Yeah. speaker-0: Same. Female, what's that? speaker-2: I didn't think that would catch on. speaker-1: to like seeing it, you go going through recessions and amazing times and then you know, 24 years of ups downs, crazy rides. then, and then almost actually now I feel like, because obviously where I am at the moment is smart compliance. We're a, we have a bit of a strap line that we use tech, but we're not tech. We use all the facial recognition bits and pieces and the biometrics and all the wizardry that goes on with that. And that's great. But actually we're very a very proud human service. And I think what's happening now and sort of looking when you look through social media, we've almost I'm now seeing posts and blogs and articles about how we've almost gone a bit too far and that people are trying to rein back in the we're a people industry. Yeah, people need to start yes, use the tech and AI to automate and save time. But this whole kind of AI is going to replace your job. Is it? Maybe one day? don't know. mean, I'm kind of open, but I just, can't see until we've got literally robots walking up and down the street. speaker-0: Do know what, just on that, we've had that sort of debate on the pod before and you've been in agency long enough to know that when buyer and seller starts talking to each other, it's just absolutely crazy. You need a human in the middle. I think the view is that the bottom end, sort of, I suppose, purple bricks of the market, the commoditized side of the market will probably be mopped up by AI. And I think that's okay. And I don't think AI will... necessarily take jobs of agents, it will be the agents using AI in the correct way that will take the jobs of the people that aren't. It's like anything, you're an enabler, you know, unfortunately, if you're working in administration and you're an administrator, there's good chance that you're probably going to be gone soon. Unless of course, you are enabled by tech and you, if you're an administrator that is AI enabled, then I think there is a huge future. But I think if you're not prepared to adapt and evolve with how times are moving, then I do think that there is a potential issue there. But yeah, sorry, go on, please continue. I jumped in there. speaker-1: ⁓ So yeah, I've had quite a, I think an interesting time going, like literally like going through the ages of this sort of evolution almost within agency. And I speak to a lot of agents. I've been out of agency now for eight years. So it's quite a long time, but it's... ⁓ I'm always sort of speaking to agents and it's interesting you are, you whenever I phone a client or an agent that we're looking to work with, that you always get talking about their market and it's so varied across the UK. And I think it's really interesting when you read these sweeping statements in the press about how the market is. And then our figures, you know, because we obviously track how many, packs are being ordered and how many buyers packs. it's like, our stats read the totally different. speaker-0: and stuff you do I speaker-1: story to the headline in the press a lot of the time. it's so different across the UK. I can speak to an agent in Pembrokeshire and Wales and they're having a great time. And then I speak to an agent in London and they're not so great. And then the following week I'll speak to another agent in different part of London and they're having an absolutely blinding year. I also think that an agent now they'll make their market. And there is a lot out there going on. And if you are getting pricing correct, if you are, you know, we used to call it the three D's, you know, when times get tough, focus on the three D's, which sounds terrible, but your death, and divorce, go find the market. and I think that you're the tech out there and the systems and the processes, you know, like we, take away that AML admin, you know, from you. So that's, you know, X amount of time saved. speaker-0: Can we just dive into that a little bit? Like I don't want say don't, this isn't going to be the AML podcast. No, absolutely You're to send people to sleep. But what I do think is very important and something that I've been quite passionate about and a bit of an advocate for smart compliance and AML myself is that I don't think enough agents realise what they need to do to be compliant. And also equally, I don't think... They realize if they get caught for not being compliant, how heavy the fines are. Like the fines are heavy enough for not registering on time. So if you really want to yourself, then go on the HMRC website and look at the penalties that have been issued. But what I love about smart compliance is it just, and this isn't an ad, but genuinely from someone that uses it in their business on a daily basis, it just takes away the stress of knowing whether you're doing it right or You know, you guys were, you know, kind of at the forefront of changing the perception of charging clients for AML. And, you know, I've, I think, I don't know, unless I'm completely oblivious to it, I think, you know, you're really the only ones out there that offer that kind of end to end service. And there are things like, as an agent, you know, you need to be doing obviously ID checks and there's a lot of agents out there. I I spoke to one up until very recently that was just taking photos of passports and driving licenses for sellers. And that wasn't even in a malicious, I don't care kind of way. It was just that didn't, don't know kind of way. I was like, you know, what are you doing for AML? And they were like, ⁓ well, you know, we just sort it out in house. So we just take the photo of the passport and the driving license. I ⁓ said, what about your title docs? Do you download the title and everything as well? Cause it's gone up now. It's like seven quid. And they were like, nah, never, never needed to do that. ⁓ that's that one actually, I mean, that's just one part of it. speaker-1: I mean, my team daily have meetings like that. Our worst one is when they say, we ask them what system they're currently using to get the background. And they say, we carry out the checks manually. And so, what do mean manually? How do you do it manually? So you're not checking PEPs and sanctions. And they're like, ⁓ no, we asked the client if they're a PEP and it's like. speaker-0: ⁓ no. Pepua Guardiola? You know, yes. speaker-1: Yeah, it's an interesting one. don't think, you know, there are some agents that just choose to be oblivious to it and a bit like, no, you know, not listening, la la la, doing it my way. But there are agents that I think that are trying their best and think they're getting it right. And I really, you know, doing everything they can. So they're using maybe a bit of a tech, like a facial recognition bit of software, but they're not maybe doing the client risk assessments. And this is obviously all changed. So recently, obviously there's new guidance now that was published on the 8th of July. And every agent should read it. It's actually written a lot better than the old legislation. It's a bit more readable and understandable. But, you know, it's very clear now what you've got to do. And it's there is no bit of tech or AI yet that can carry out a full. AML check, it has to have a human risk-based approach. And that is really interesting, especially for me, when I again jump on the industry press every morning and there's some tech company claiming to do AML checks and I'm like, sure, sure you do. speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-0: I remember Sam... Sorry, gone. speaker-2: It is one of those things, Amy, that I just, I don't understand why agents insist on holding on to that aspect of it. You know, and I think there is definitely an education thing, but it's just so non-productive of their time and energy and effort when it can be taken out of house and done properly. you know, I know we've had some kind of members who The AML and the compliance is a complete headache for them. And you just think outsource it, like literally outsource it. It's a no brainer, absolute no brainer. So it does amaze me why people do want to keep it in house. speaker-1: think it's something we said for agents that still take photos and draw up floor plans themselves and let you fix. Why are you doing that? Like, it's crazy. think that, you know, agents, think this, and this is where agents can use tech and suppliers to their advantage. And actually, you know, the tech stack of a business is incredibly important and you want it to do all the things that it can do to allow you to to build those relationships and do what you're good at. Like estate agents are terrible at compliance. So don't do it. speaker-0: Can I just say just quickly on AML, there's something that always stuck with me and I'm probably going to butcher this really badly. So Sam Offley, if you do listen to this, I'm really sorry, but I'm going to go for it. There was a, there's five things apparently that HMRC looked for in an inspection and it always stuck with me. And he said, ⁓ one was a risk assessment. So in terms of like a documented risk assessment in terms of someone low risk, medium, high risk. Do you have proof of ownership for vendors? So for example, like title docs, et cetera. ⁓ ID, your ID, so like your passport, driving license, et cetera. ⁓ The PEP check, so politically exposed person. And the financial sanctions check. think of the five, that's five, is that five? They're the things that stuck with me. I was like, you know, because historically, I was like, going back a few years, I was like, well, I knew we had to do a pep check and I you you use like a Credis or one of the other ones like to do the online stuff. But, you know, there wasn't a proper risk assessment being done at the time. You know, and I didn't, you don't know what you don't know, right? And I think the thing is, Everyone's so afraid to ask because they don't want to be the person that doesn't know what they're doing. All that happens is people think they're just doing the right thing. And then it's only when they get inspected and then, know, HMRC turn up and go, right, okay, well, you haven't got this, you haven't got this, you haven't got this. And then they get walloped. And then they're like, ⁓ right. And then, then they'll start looking into it, which is why think these conversations are important because I think there's a lot of people out there that are good, really good agents, but Just again, as you both said, agents are rubbish at the compliance side of things because, know, as an agent, lot of times, especially as a business owner as well, how many different hats do you have to wear at some point? know, when you start from a single operator, like, you know, you're the social media manager, you know, you're the sales progressor, you're the viewer, you're the valuer, you're the compliance officer, like, you're, you know, you're everything, you're wearing so many different hats. And as the business grows, Obviously, you take on a value, you take on a negotiator or a client exec, you take on a social media person, but very few people, unless they're of a certain size, will have a compliance manager or someone that deals with compliance, which is why. speaker-1: Yeah, there's lots of places and resources to go and find that help. So even if you don't work with someone like ourselves, if you're part of Property Mark, they've got a brilliant compliance department and section and help you can go and get and advice. The Guild, obviously Sam's dad, Paul Loffley, the compliance officer for the Guild. So all the Guild agents have amazing support when it comes to compliance. You can go to, you know, Compliance companies like FCS, you've got Michael Day, who's an independent chap who knows everything there is to know. So I think there's a lot out there. You've just got to, if you need help and support with it, then use the resources that are there. But yeah, it's changing. it's, if you don't have, if you're not a company big enough to warrant a compliance officer, which the majority of independent agents aren't, because you're one, two, three. kind of sort of sizes, you're not going to pay someone 50 grand a year to be a compliance officer. Then you've got to seek help. You know, I would suggest every kind of six months ish to make sure there's no changes in the legislation. Nothing's, you know, your policy, compliance policy and your risk assessment for the business are up to date and kept up to date with any legislation changes. Because the first thing HMRC will ask for. And then, make sure you're reading through the new guidance, understanding exactly what it is you need to be getting. If you're not downloading Title Deeds, then you need to be. It's the only true way of property ownership. So, yeah, there's lots of little nuances, you know, it's there and there are people out there who can help with all of this. speaker-2: Just outsource. Yeah, absolutely. Just outsource. That's the upshot of that convo. Do yourself a favour and get it outsourced. Amy, kind of going forward away from compliance, what do you think for the next few years is going to be the areas where agents can kind of grow? What are going to be the opportunities that you can see coming up? speaker-1: That's a really good question. I think that agents need to go, when I think back to the training that I had at Romans, and we were very lucky, we had insane training. I one of the first things I had to do was sit through my residential sales NVQ level three, which I still have the certificate for. And I think agents need to learn basics, know, door knocking, for example. I think me and James touched on this on the phone. speaker-0: Yeah, Can you talk about that a bit as well? Because I thought that was great. We started off having a two minute conversation. I think we were on the phone for half an hour, we? He's talking about all sorts. But that was great. Would you mind sharing a bit of your insight on that, the whole door knocking thing? speaker-1: I think, do you know what is funny, isn't it? Cause I'm just one of these people that you don't ask, you don't get firstly. And I think that actually the world of sales has got a little bit scary. I saw a really interesting post that Nicola Berman put up on LinkedIn about a week ago. And it just was really interesting because she's been speaking to people who are getting almost now too scared to pick up the phone. because they're a salesperson and they're trying to sell. So whether it's a supplier calling an agent, which is obviously my world, and cold calling, which is what we have to do, or whether it's an agent that's sort ringing around evaluations they did three, five years ago, they're almost getting to a point where they're getting scared again about picking up that phone. I think salespeople are kind of losing, yeah, mean, we don't have the best reputation in the world. but at the same time we're salespeople and we've got a job to do. ⁓ And I think that don't ask, don't get mentality for me always kind of worked. ⁓ Yeah, I never ended evaluation without asking for the business. And I think door knocking is that fear of rejection, isn't it? speaker-0: So when you asked for the business on it, because we had this conversation actually, like me, David, Ian, often we'll talk about this and we'll always kind of refine our, I suppose, our question and our pitch. When you, you know, obviously it's a little while since you've done it, what would you say at the end of evaluation? Like, because for me, I've always gone along the lines of the assumptive close. you know, where are you? We've you talking, yeah, you want to do it? Brilliant. Okay. So do you think you'd be ready for photos in a couple of weeks? Brilliant. Okay. Well, should I go up the diary now and we can see when we can get you in for the photos? I'm just naturally assume. And until that person says, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, to my partner or whatever, then, you know, okay, problem. You know, we'll send the proposal, but, know, would you be happy to go ahead? And then, you know, maybe ask again, if I do get not back again, then I'll send the proposal, then maybe follow it up afterwards. But what would your, just out of interest, what was your approach like? speaker-1: It's quite similar. So you always try the assumptions first. So I would use things like, what's the best time of day to photo the front of the house? I already knew that because I'd already worked out where I'm a bit weird, I'm a bit of a human compass. know exactly when the sun's going to be on. Same. Have they got a spare key that I can take to do the viewings? That was always quite a good one because then they'd run away to the kitchen drawer because everyone's got the keys in the kitchen drawer, right? And to be trying to a spare key to check they've actually got one. And then I think, yeah, like that for you kind of always go three times, right? So, yeah, three attempts. And then if you go past that point, you can start, you know, getting. speaker-2: you are under a strain. speaker-0: Get a bit creepy then. speaker-1: I know, just asking questions at the beginning of the pitch is really important. And I think this is where, certainly in the training I had, before we even did a tour of the house, I'd want to sit down with the client and go through like almost like a fact find for a good 10, 20 minutes before they even showed me around the house. Cause I think a lot of agents, know, sitting where I was, they would walk in and go straight into the kind of the tour and then you're showing around the property. But you, for me, sit down first. worked really well because I would just get to know the client. Often I'd never spoken to them on the phone before because a colleague had booked in the appointment. We were quite good at colour coding our valuations from the valuation booking so I would know on the top of the VAL form it would say red, blue, yellow, green, speaker-0: Is that like a disc profile, do you mean? speaker-1: Yeah, literally. So if they rang up and said, what's your fee? Red. You know, you know, sort of questions that were very blunt or they were very quick. Get off the phone quick. Yeah. They were always a red client. Someone blue would be, you know, you couldn't get them off the phone. I don't know. The kind of valuations you go on where you talk about their grandkids more than you do their. But the fact, at the beginning of the valuation for me was really important because that's where you'll ascertain speaker-0: Okay. Yeah, yeah speaker-1: Yeah, timescales, their motivation, a lot more detail because, you know, asking them what their expectations are for an agent, what their experiences were, what was their experience like when they bought the house? You know, these are really important questions that you then just find out everything you need to know to build trust and win their business. And then very... taking those answers into consideration at the end, you kind of know how to then tailor the pitch at the end and how to get them to vote. If you know full well that their partner isn't around and they're not going to make a decision without their partner, you're going to be, you're just going to try and just be really friendly and warm to them. You're not going to hard pitch that person. You're just going to try and build trust, build trust, build trust throughout the whole appointment. Because you know you're not going to walk away with the contract at the end of that. that valuation part, you want to do everything you can to make sure you get it the next day. And I think, you know, little things for me now, I think agents should go back to doing things like by handing letters. know, you sort of, you're, whether you send a proposal pack or just a letter, whatever it is after the valuation, are you dropping it back through their door that evening on your way home? Are you just sending it on email? speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. Like little touches. I love it when I get a post. It's exciting. Yeah. Don't get a post anymore. speaker-2: Yeah, these days, speaker-0: I was just saying the irony, like I was thinking, like when you were talking about how long we've all been doing it and I've, what was it, 2003, I think I started. And I can remember handwriting envelopes and stamping envelopes, basically, well, it was actually franking, sorry, not stamping, handwriting and franking envelopes until my hand felt like it wanted to drop off. And then here I am in 2026, handwriting envelopes and sending direct mail to sellers on know, market updates, et cetera, how things have gone full circle. But it's interesting, isn't it? You everyone's moved away from, you know, 30 years ago, you get loads of junk mail through the door. Whereas now everyone's concentrating on Facebook ads, they're on email, like your inbox is full of junk. Very rarely do you get, you know, you might get the odd takeaway leaflet through the door or the odd window cleaning leaflet through the door or Ben's gutters or whatever, but you you don't... generally tend to get much through the door. So like you quite rightly say, when you get something through the door, it's nice to open it. And especially if it's handwritten, it's stamped, like it's opened, it carries more weight because who's writing to me? creates that, it's like, people talk about email open rates, but we talk about direct mail open rates. gets that piece of content opened and then you're in the place that you want to sell, a piece of you and a piece of your material. is in the place that you want to actually physically sell and with the person that you want to work with. So interesting what you said about where things need to go. What would you tell yourself, like if you could speak to yourself 20 years ago, like an agency, what would you, if you had five minutes, I thought about you, this was Michelle's question when we were talking on the phone earlier, so I'm not going to try and steal the credit. I said, I said 20 years then, but maybe 10 years. ⁓ like if you had five minutes with yourself for, for, I don't know, 10, 15 years ago, you, what would you say to that person? speaker-1: Just believe in yourself a bit more. I think we all have a lot of self doubt. You know, for me, I achieved something I was quite proud of. You know, I was the first female branch manager at Romans and I think I didn't believe in myself quick enough. I actually remember telling my boss, don't think I'm ready for that. And maybe I wasn't and actually maybe that was the right thing to do. ⁓ But he believed in me and he saw something in me that was not just a value, he saw, you know, obviously leadership skills or whatever, you know, he saw in me. ⁓ But I think believe in yourself and just go for it. think, you know, women in agency, we've not really touched on that, but I think that certainly for me, what that group does is empower you. and the support there, like the women that, you know, I've been fortunate enough and I'm so grateful to hang around with, ⁓ that just inspire me, you know, on the daily and that, you know, if you... If you're doubting yourself, then go learn about why you're doubting yourself and what aspect and get the support and the mentorship, you need agents together out there as well. And yeah, go for it. Like believe, because it's the only way you're going to fly and you've got to go for it. You have to go for it in this world. speaker-2: You speaker-0: 100%. 100%. And so can we dig into women in the state agents? Where can we unpack this conversation? Because you said something to me on the phone the other day that made me chuckle, but I thought it's brilliant when you were talking about door knocking as a female. Like no one likes door knocking, but you said to me, I used to love door knocking. I'm not going to tell your story, you tell me. And I think we can unpack that. speaker-1: Do you know what, it's just funny, like, I never ever, I think being female, I never got told to F off. A lot of the guys would go out door knocking and they would just get the door slammed in their face. And I never had that. But I would also try and time door knocking cleverly with the school run. ⁓ Because I think as a female you're, I don't know, are we more approachable? I don't know, I'm not sure. ⁓ But I would always try and time it with the school run because you're guaranteed to just bump into people who are putting, getting the kids out of the car and getting back into the house. And you just, you know, even if you just walk up and down the road and you're like, Hey, yeah, like I speak, I give you a leaflet. Like it's very rare. Someone's rude. Yeah. Very rare. And you've just got to have that confidence to just say, hi. I think I in North London now and it, fascinates me living here versus Berkshire where. walking up and down a road where I used to live, everyone used to say morning to each other or hi. Like you walk past someone and it's like morning or evening, you're walking the dog, whatever it is. Where I live now, everyone's like head down, don't say anything, don't say anything, don't make like, don't say like it's, it's weird. And yeah, I just think it's just that way. Just say hi to people. speaker-0: It's a bit like that where I'm from, to be fair, a bit like that North London thing where, you just wouldn't, which is why I always find it strange. Like whenever I visited Ian or Dave in like Cheshire or, you know, Dave's in sort of Bolton way, I remember walking down the street and just random people go, hi, Oliver. Hi, hi, afternoon. You're all right. I'm like, do I know you, bruv? But yeah, it is so different. speaker-2: to the northeast. speaker-0: If anyone's listening to this, so we've got, know, we, think our 30 odd percent of our listenership is female. If anybody is listening to this and is thinking about doing it themselves, what, what was you kind of say to them, you know, on a, on, on the doorstep, what's the conversation you have? You know, is there anything particularly you think you said different from a female perspective or do you just think, you know, turn up and like you say, you, you've always got something to hand out and you've always got a reason to leave. speaker-1: Yeah, always have a leaflet or a letter and a reason why you're there. One thing we used to do is door knock houses where we'd sold a property on the same road. So we would have the sold in your road type leaflet and I would knock the doors of anyone who's got their property on the market. Obviously you're going to put a leaflet through anyway, but if you can have a conversation with somebody then fantastic. But I think just being kind, caring, have a soft tone. ask them how their day is, don't go with any kind of intrusive questions initially about their house sale, as you used to just ask them how they were finding the market, something general, just to get them talking first. If you go in with, ⁓ you have any viewings lately, why haven't you had any offers? It's quite... ...aggressive, just soft, how you're finding the market at the moment, something like that. speaker-2: they get defensive. speaker-0: Cool. Okay. ⁓ speaker-2: thing though is just to do it. You know, you might knock on someone's door and you walk away and you think, do you know what, that didn't go great, but you just keep going and keep going and keep going. And you know, I love what you say, Amy, about kind of, we have a saying in the Northeast, shy bens getting out and you have to be willing to put yourself out there. And this links back to the kind of AI tech conversation. Because ⁓ what I'm seeing with people in business is the frontline staff are sometimes hiding behind the tech and text messages, WhatsApp, email, and they're losing the ability to have the conversations on the telephone. And that then transfers into kind of the door knocking as well, because it's same skill set. So I think just the fact of getting out there and doing it is the key. And you can refine as you go. Just because you have one bad experience doesn't mean that you stop. You just do something differently. There's no failure only feedback. speaker-0: Yeah, 100%. So I think that's probably a really good place to leave it and call it. I think it's been a really good episode. Yeah. Anything else that you wanted to add Michelle before we call it a day? Well, thanks ever so much for joining us, Amy. You've been a great guest. Michelle, as always, a great guest, much better than those other two. And thanks everyone for listening. And of course, remember, if you are going through anything, please do reach out and speak to someone. There is things like the Boys Club that Amy mentioned, which is a really good industry thing that you can speak to. And also, as always, we've got our mastermind coming up in two weeks. our search is always on for more members. We've had ⁓ 20 new people sign up for the free membership of TCA in the last month, which is really good. So by all means, check out thecompleteagent.co.uk. And yeah, we will see you all next week.