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Identity Shifts, Core Beliefs & Navigating Life Transitions 2|07 · The Living Loss | Navigating Invisible Grief & Identity

• Daiana, LMHC: Welcome to the Living Loss Podcast. I'm Daiana Bernard. Cassandra, LMHC: And I'm Cassandra Harris Towner. Daiana, LMHC: As licensed mental health counselors, we're here to unpack the quiet, complex griefs that don't come with a funeral. Cassandra, LMHC: Because you can't heal what you don't acknowledge. Join us as we name these hidden losses and create a meaningful path forward together. Daiana, LMHC: let's dive in. Cassandra, LMHC: So, if you've been with us for a while, you know that we talk about quiet losses on this show. And today we're talking about identity, who we are, how our core beliefs shape us, and the quiet grief about growing old versions of ourselves as we age. But before we begin, Daiana, I have a question for you. Is there a moment recently or not so recently, where you realize that Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: you just don't enjoy something you used to love in your twenties that you like could or could not enjoy now. Daiana, LMHC: Yes. And not that you asked me the question in advance. I can think or anything. I did have a few minutes to as even as you were saying it, more things were coming to mind. That first when you asked me that question, I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. I had to like really think back. I'm like, damn, was it that long ago? Cassandra, LMHC: It was, just so you know, it really was. Daiana, LMHC: But I'll tell you, man, I just I just had a vision of of twenty something year old Daiana waking up at three in the morning to go see Mark Anthony, g gonna be on Good Day America and and I'm just like, I'm gonna sleep by my godmother's house 'cause she lives in Manhattan. I'm gonna yeah, that was me. I am not so much these days. I have definitely I can recall recent moments where I'm just like, there's too many people. Like I don't want to be in crowds. Or I mean, I think because I'm in in this grief as well in real time, I don't want to go shopping. I'm like, everything is like so much work. I used to love going shopping, even though that did change when I started using my own money more. But like, you know, Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Absolutely. Daiana, LMHC: definitely being in crowds. I'm more of a homebody. Now. Cassandra, LMHC: No. Daiana, LMHC: For now, because I do reminisce a lot. I'm Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: like a nostalgia from inside out. Cassandra, LMHC: You think back to the days when we were young and wild and free. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, yeah. That part, the free part, I think about that often that I could just pick up and go anywhere. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: I remember one day I went to a friend of mine's wedding and my older girls were still very small. They were like two and three or three and four. And my mom watched them for me while I went to this wedding. I was in the wedding, so I couldn't bring children. Plus, it was a non-child friendly wedding. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: And so my mom kept the girls. And Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: I went and I was in my little hotel room. And I was like, man, I gotta go. I'm gonna be late. And I got up and I put my shoes on and I walked out the door. And I was like, What just happened? Like getting ready, leaving the house did not take thirty-five, forty minutes. I didn't have to yell. I didn't have to like coerce. I didn't have to do anything. I just put my shoes on and walked out the door. And like Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Yes. Yes. I know the feeling. I think I had that first that feeling for the first time with you when we traveled to North Carolina together. And you I don't know if you asked me something or whatever. I'm like, I feel great. I only packed for myself. Like I couldn't, I couldn't get over the fact of how good that felt to just pack for myself and not to worry about anybody else's things. So definitely there are things that I don't believe we take them for granted. It's just Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: that we're safe in that existence, just packing for ourselves. We don't have anything to compare it to. So someone mentioned to me some yesterday about something not the same but similar of taking things for granted. And I don't think we often take things for granted. It's just that we live in that security. That it Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: it we don't know any different. Cassandra, LMHC: Well, when we were talking about this question earlier and I started thinking about what I used to do that I I don't like anymore or miss or things like that. Yeah. It's alright. I already gave myself my own Daiana, LMHC: Well Cassandra, when you were twenty. When you were twenty, Cassandra. Cassandra, LMHC: intro. It's fine, I got Daiana, LMHC: Yes. Cassandra, LMHC: that. Daiana, LMHC: No. Let me let me cater to you, Bird. Yes. Cassandra, LMHC: So twenty was a long time ago and like I did not value sleep at all. Daiana, LMHC: Uh-huh. Cassandra, LMHC: at all. I would my goodness, I would I worked in time. I didn't value time either. I worked two hours, a Daiana, LMHC: Ha ha ha Cassandra, LMHC: like two hour drive away from where I was living. And then at night I would drive back two hours. Sometimes I'd stop at my second job. Sometimes I'd go straight home and I would get dressed and then I would drive another hour north and meet up with my friends at this place that we like to go to. I'd stay Daiana, LMHC: I'm tired hearing you right now. Cassandra, LMHC: until like we closed it down at like two o'clock in the morning and then like we would go to the diner and then I would get home at like four o'clock in the morning or five o'clock in the morning and like sleep for two hours and get up and do it again. Daiana, LMHC: How good does it feel to go to the diner at three in the morning though? Four in the morning. It's amazing. From not sleeping. Cassandra, LMHC: I don't care anymore. Like I'm sure that diner is delightful at three o'clock. I if I'm not yeah, no, no, no. Twenty year old me. But now, like, if I'm looking back at that, Daiana, LMHC: No, I'm talking about twenty year old you. Twenty something year old, yes. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: I had to be out the other night at like nine o'clock at night. I was like, This is ridiculous. I'm supposed to be in bed right now. What is going on? Like Daiana, LMHC: What do you think changes so like in just from our experiences doesn't have to be? What do you think changes bes besides age? Cassandra, LMHC: The level of interest I have in in doing those things, I've done those things. I I can s I've got the teacher like been there, Daiana, LMHC: Okay, look kind of like bender than that. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: done that, exhausted, grumpy, you know, all the things. I was not nearly as good of an employee as I thought that I was. I Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: probably owe a few people apologies for that, quite honestly. And Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: at this point in my life, sleep and time are so much more voluble to me than poor decision making that I didn't realize at the time was poor decision making. It's just And if someone is in that stage of their life right now, that's cool. Enjoy yourself. We enjoyed ourselves. It was a great time. But at this stage in my life, I I value sleep and time so much more than I ever have before. Especially since the longer time goes, the more it seems to speed up. And like I'm probably in the air in the age range where I have less time in front of me than I do behind me. Like I'm forty four, so if I'm lucky, that makes me middle aged to eighty eight. If I'm lucky. So like there's just this realization that I can do more with what I have and I need to put more importance on the things that help guide me and help grow me and help build me than I do on making sure that I meet up with my friends at a bar at two o'clock in the morning. But again, like if that's the stage of life you're in, have a great time because Daiana, LMHC: As you should, right? Cassandra, LMHC: Absolutely one hundred percent. So that's something that I realize that I don't enjoy now, that I used to enjoy. Like I'm going to a concert in a month and a half, which I'm very, very excited for, but I know without a shadow of a doubt that I will be taking a nap earlier that day so that I can function long enough to stay up and stay upright. Daiana, LMHC: There's a few things there that you said then. It's your stage of life, right? Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Of course, age, and there's also values. You said, like, I didn't value sleep, now you value it. Because I think back, and everything you just told me, I'm like, I'm tired thinking about it. I'm sure you were tired, but you didn't care Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: if you were tired. What is doing everything you wanted to do? was more important. It's it's what we value. So I think values Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: have a lot to do with it. And beliefs, which we're going to talk about more today. identity. In Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: every single episode, if you look back, I am I would bet money on it, we always talk about identity. It falls into every single type of grief. And last week when we talked to Andy Elwood, We heard that it sounds like when someone's entire identity is dismantled and rebuilt, like he talked about dismantling, rebuilding, dismantling, you know, by choice or and most of the time it's not. It's not our choice. So today we're gonna break down the science of why that happens to all of us. And if you ever looked in the mirror and thought, I don't even know who I am anymore. Stick with us. And please take a moment to subscribe. It means the world to us. Cassandra, LMHC: And I was thinking about the conversation that we had with Andy. all the different things that he brought to the table in terms of identity and how it changed and what happened and then how it changed again and what happened. And then shocker if you haven't listened, how it changed again and then what happened. Daiana, LMHC: Yes, yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: he talked about the difference between his public persona, Andy Lwood.com, and and what he considered the real Andy, and that someone called him out on that, which I thought was a pretty cool observation. That gap is all about identity. She was a therapist. I'm just saying let's give her a little Daiana, LMHC: She was a therapist. Just thinking. Cassandra, LMHC: pluggy plug, just tossing that out there. Because Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: the gap that's there, it's it's all about identity. So Today we're gonna talk about symbolic and identity loss that happens there and developmental or transitional grief. So, like the grief that happens while we go through these identity shifts. Then we're also Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: gonna define what identity and core beliefs actually are Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: while we walk through how we grieve our past selves through our twenties or thirties or forties and into our sixties and beyond. There's a lot to talk about today. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, yeah. I was mentioned to you earlier that every episode, everything we talk about can be its own course, webinar, book. It Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: it it is so many things. So as we prepare for these, it's it's hard to narrow it down. Earlier are you like, This is for another episode. This like we can, we can break just this up into a podcast only about identity. Because there's so much there. Cassandra, LMHC: We're not doing any spin-offs yet. We're just we're not doing a spin-off yet. Like one day we will get to like the identity growth podcast, but it's not today. Daiana, LMHC: What was that? No, no spinoff. No. No. The closest we're getting to a spin off is when I do a bonus in Spanglish. And that's only happened twice. So and I'm hoping it happens again soon, but spinoff, it w it would yeah, not happening. Cassandra, LMHC: I love that you do that though. I think that's a really, really cool idea. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, I think there's a big part of me talking about core beliefs, I'm just like w jumping ahead because part of my identity is, my Latino community and wanting all of us to learn about mental health. So there's always gonna be that pull for me to give back in that way. And it's such a part of me, that whole spanglish part of where I found the my identity in between being, you know, first generation American. Cassandra, LMHC: Well, okay, so we talked a little bit before we hit record about salient identities, right? And those are the identities that come forward depending on who you're with, who you're talking to, things like that. So it could be nationality, it could be language, it could be body type, it could be whatever it is that is most prevalent for you in that moment. So, Daiana, LMHC: Okay. Cassandra, LMHC: like let's say, you're playing a basketball game. So your salient identity at that time could be acquie or teammate. Or I go to a family reunion, then I'm sister, I'm daughter, I'm wife, I'm all of these things that are part of my salient identity. And it shifts. All identity, Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: that's one of the coolest things about identity, is it can shift and it can grow based off of where you are in your life and who you're with. And Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: I've talked to people who struggle a little bit with the idea that they kind of shift identities based off of who they're with, but it's it's one of the most natural things just because different versions of yourself come forward at different times. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: So I can imagine like the Spanglish episodes that you're doing are a little bit different than the ones that you and I do together. Daiana, LMHC: I've already noticed that the way I speak in Spanish, my personality changes. It's completely different. I follow this girl on Instagram that she's learning Spanish. she's white and she's married to a Dominican baseball player. And someone said, like you speak, when you speak Spanish, you sound different. You sound like a whole different person. And it brought the atten she's like, Yeah, it does. Like something else happens to me when I speak in Spanish. And I can I can totally see that. It's like I tap into this other part of myself that it's still me and I'm sure you see it. Like if you see it when when I speak English and when I'm with you, it's I'm still the same person. But this other aspect. Another thing that my brain does, which I find it hilarious, is that if I my brain thinks you know how to speak Spanish, I will speak in Spanglish and I won't even notice. I did that with a client once and I was like, my God, I'm so embarrassed. But I'm like, I don't think she noticed. I'm like, my gosh, she has first time meeting. She must think I'm crazy speaking to her in two languages. Cassandra, LMHC: Well, now that we're thinking about this, I I'm remembering usually we spend Thanksgiving together, right? Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: And a lot of times it it's a heavily Spanish spoken sort of community that comes together. But you will stop and translate for me on the stuff that I I don't pick up on. Like I I can understand a lot more Spanish than I speak, but like every now and then you'll stop and translate something for me. And it's really funny. even thinking about that, there's a difference between like when you're you're speaking with your mother and like the sort of personality that you portray there and then you shift to translate to me and then it's it's a different sort of personality that you put forward. Daiana, LMHC: Wow. Yeah, so you've seen it in action and that whole translating for you thing is something I do it without even thinking. As we were preparing. Cassandra, LMHC: Well, because y I'm sure you have to do it for the children too. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, well the children, I'm like, learn Spanish. I do, I'm like, like why why you don't know Spanish? Cassandra, LMHC: Figure it out, guys. Figure it out. Daiana, LMHC: I said something yesterday, and I say that I was I was about to say it as well now. It's like ¿Quién te manda? like who who sent you is the literal translation. And and she was like, What does that mean? I'm like, she's like, Who sent you? And I'm like, It's so funny because it doesn't mean who sent you, it's like who told you to. Like who told you Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: to do this? Who told you to do that? Kind of thing. So it's yeah, I don't translate for them. But I always want people to to f not to feel like people are talking about them. That often happens naturally as humans, we always think it's about us, right? So it's like Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: when someone speaks a different language, they think that they're talking about them or they just feel left out. And I don't want anybody to feel left out. Cassandra, LMHC: It's really sweet. Not everyone cares that much. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. That still surprises me sometimes, I definitely see all those things that that you're saying and as you're speaking, all of these different parts of myself and or noticing that I have all Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: these different parts just come up. Cassandra, LMHC: Which is kind of cool because identity in and of itself are all the things, both big and small. They're the things that just make you uniquely you. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: it could be the combination of what you love, what you believe, where you've been, who you care about. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: It's almost like a scrapbook that you built over time. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: It could include your passions like things that you love that song that you play on repeat. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: or quirky things like silly joke, my my daughter loves the the interrupting cow joke. It's her favorite joke. Do you know this one? Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yes, I do. I do. I'm gonna ask her to tell me a joke next time I see her. That's a badger. Cassandra, LMHC: It's it's her it's her absolute favorite. If you guys don't know it, look it up. It's a banger. it's a banger. You're you're gonna be like, why is she talking about this? Because it's it's a fun, silly little joke. And when I think about this, I think about people that are like, well, you've changed. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: and I love that because that's kinda the idea. Like growth and change is kinda the idea of at least to me, of what this world is about, what this life is about, is being able to shift and and be comfortable in whatever new identity comes up. And some of them are things that we expected and some of them are things that we didn't, some are Identities that were thrust upon us. Andy talked Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: about quite a few that were thrust upon him. And Daiana, LMHC: Insular, insular was the word that he used. And I was like, I love that word because that Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: encompasses that family you were born into, beliefs you were born into. Cassandra, LMHC: Yeah. Daiana, LMHC: It's like a little capsule. Cassandra, LMHC: Yes, like this little like this is where we're at, but like the more you know, the more you grow. The more you do, Daiana, LMHC: No. Cassandra, LMHC: the more you see it, the more you become the person that you wanna be. Daiana, LMHC: I think that's what happens in your 20s and 30s, as we were saying, that you have to stay up all night to know that you don't want like it. You know, you don't have to do all the things, but there's certain things I think in especially in your 20s, you're really going through exploring and getting to know yourself in those ways through experiences. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Just a good thing. You mentioned something that that aligns with what we're gonna speak about next, which is core beliefs. And we have within everything we've talked about today already, we have shared some core beliefs. Right. When I said I I don't I don't want someone to feel left out, like being kind or caring is a core belief of mine, right? Cassandra, LMHC: Or me believing that it's kinda the point to grow and change. That's a core belief of mine. Daiana, LMHC: Yes, that's a belief. Yeah. Right. So when you see someone who tells you like you've changed and says it in a way that sounds negative, you're like, well, I have. And you're Cassandra, LMHC: Yeah. Daiana, LMHC: happy about it. I think my my biggest growth in identity has happened in the last, I'll say 10 years. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: And it's not only because of becoming a mom, it's because of who I have to be to be a mom. It's not even the mothering part. Do you know what I mean? I'm learning and being a mom has taught me so much because I see things differently through my kids' eyes. But my dad, I remember he told me, you've changed. And at the moment, it hurt my feelings. Like immediately, first feeling was like, because I know what he meant. And then I was like, I did change. Like, but I and it was like an exhale, just like that. Like, I did change. And I worked so hard. It wasn't change that came easy. Because be becoming yourself and owning your identity, what you believe in, that it's tried and true. I have followed this belief. I have because of my parents, or like you said, because of your environment, your school, the people you're around. And then you're it's something doesn't feel right, but it's given you so much praise or accolades or all these benefits, it's hard to say. Yes, and it doesn't make me feel like myself. It just doesn't feel right. All Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: right. So there's another part of this, and the assumptive world. In our assumptive world or our beliefs, our core beliefs, is like if I do everything right, I will be safe. Or I'm only valuable because I'm producing, right? Those are things that are learned throughout our childhood, throughout our life. So beliefs and identity are not separate. They're the core belief serves as an actual scaffolding that holds identity together. Right? So there are schemas. And these schemas are cognitive structures and they're used to organize and process information. These self-schemas are specific. They're a specific subset. they are regarding the self. So, if an early maladaptive schema, core belief is I'm only valuable when I'm producing, Right? So performance is not simply a behavior, it's an operational definition of who you are. And then identity grief that could follow as your your identity changes and you're letting go of old beliefs, and you're also noticing that these old beliefs are failing you, It's a profound identity loss of mourning who you used to be under that rule, because it is a rule. It's like if I do this, that happens to a lot of us millennials, right? If I go to school, if I study hard, I'm gonna get that job and I'm gonna get a lot of money and I'm gonna get a house. And then you're like, but where's the money at? Like, where's Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: I work so hard and did everything I was asked to do. And then the world continues to change, right? And it doesn't happen as we thought. So there's this other part. Where we are, where we're mourning who we used to be. And then we're also terrified of having to rebuild from scratch. It always feels that there's always this feeling of I have to start over. I have to start over. We were just talking about taxes and we might have to get a new tax lady. I'm like, I'm gonna find that lady because I don't want to start over. Right? We we don't want to start over. It feels so daunting. So A lot of times when we're going, when we're when we're like twenty nine, thirty-nine, forty-nine, when we're changing decades, that's when we notice, we start to notice that how we were in this decade is not really fitting into the next one. Like who we were in our thirties is not who benefits us. Like the way we are or way we function. It will always benefit us in our forties. Sometimes we have to let go of things and that hurts. Cassandra, LMHC: Sometimes we also have to let go of people. Like you're welcome. I got this. Because there Daiana, LMHC: I was thinking the same thing. Took the words right out of my mouth. Get out my head. Yeah, we do. Cassandra, LMHC: are people who can't can't update their file about us. There are people who are not able to fathom the change that's happened or the change that's there or the person that you're becoming. If for whatever reason it doesn't fit in with their core beliefs or for whatever reason it doesn't work. For what they are aware of, what what their awareness of the world is. And they can either change their idea of what your identity is, or sometimes they get lost in the shuffle. And there there's real loss that comes with that. There's real grief that comes with that. Daiana, LMHC: So much. Cassandra, LMHC: Because we've talked about losing friends in the past and losing relationships. And I still don't think that there's a lot of Honor paid to that sort of grief. But it happens almost every day. There's someone particular that I'm thinking of right now that they'll say, Well, you know how you are when this happens, or you'll know you know how Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: you're getting to do this. And the fact is, those are things I used to do. Those are reactions I used to have. And it's not something that's true anymore. But they don't know this version. They Daiana, LMHC: That's really hard. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: know the version That I used to be. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. On the podcast, you've shared going back home. And Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: that happens a lot when you go back home. People treat you as you were that version. Or like my dad was doing, like he was seeing a different version of me, a more authentic version. Cassandra, LMHC: It's funny. So when I was growing up, I was always called Casey. I don't know if I've ever shared this with you, but that was Daiana, LMHC: Maybe. Cassandra, LMHC: not a Cassie. I've never been a Cassie, but I was a Casey. Daiana, LMHC: Okay. Cassandra, LMHC: And so when I got to college, I was kinda sick of that that handle. So I just my given government name is Cassandra, so I just went with that. And when I go home I still get called Casey a lot. Like people I run into, people I know. And it used to bother me, especially if people from the life that I have now tried to use that nickname. there there's a very select few people who can get away with using that name now. And it's interesting to me, though, when there's people from my home life, like where I grew up, that have started calling me Cassandra because they know that that's my preference. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: They know that that's who I identify as these days. They know that that's the life that I've built for me. And they're respectful of that. So they use the name that I prefer. And that level of acceptance is is astounding and it's not something I actually think about too often. But unfortunately, if my mother is listening, I apologize. You still not cannot call me Cassandra. whenever she does, she sounds like she's mad at me because that's the only time I ever heard it out of her mouth. So I do apologize for that. But she is the Daiana, LMHC: So she's the excep one of the exceptions. Cassandra, LMHC: exception. Daiana, LMHC: I figured that it came from someone who just adores you, like has that unconditional love, like something to that effect that Cassandra, LMHC: Mm. Daiana, LMHC: it's not just for anybody. Cassandra, LMHC: No, it's yeah, just family family and friends that I knew from back in the day. Daiana, LMHC: That's amazing. And I love when people when we do get that reaction of Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: meeting you where you are right Cassandra, LMHC: Yeah. Daiana, LMHC: now. When you were talking about friendships and how they come and go, and you we were talking about, well, these are different things to how we were in our 20s or younger. I had to change my definition or my core belief about around friendship. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: That friendships, and not that I believe all of this, but I'm giving you examples. Like friendships are supposed to be for life. Everyone should have childhood friendships. Friends need to be loyal and be with you good times and bad times. We have all of these beliefs around it, specifically about people leaving your life. I've had to change that core belief because I noticed that it hurt my feelings. So Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: I had to bridge that gap for myself and saying, you know, people are with us right when they need to be. And some if you notice, we've we had an episode on friendship. We talked about the drift. Some friendships we don't even notice that we drifted, right? Because it's just like it naturally happens. Sometimes you outgrow each other. But now my belief is that people are with you when they're supposed to be with you. I have shared on the podcast about a recent loss of a friendship and how you helped me through that. And when I see pictures and things like that, I don't have I was shocked that I don't have negative feelings. I'm like, we had so much fun. And I remember how I felt when I was with them and I felt good. And I still have to honor that. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Because it was good times. And my mom gave me all of her old pictures. I have like in a case. I'm going through them and sorting them for her. And I used to scratch people's face off. Like you know, like in old pictures, I would like lick it and like scratch Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: their face. I'm like if it was like somebody's ex-boyfriend or something, I'm like, scratch that face out. And Cassandra, LMHC: That's awesome. Daiana, LMHC: when I saw it, I could not stop laughing. What would that be equivalent to now? Like I guess deleting yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: Deleting from your reel. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Deleting from your grid, right? Cassandra, LMHC: Yep. Daiana, LMHC: Delete. Yeah. So I thought that was funny. But I that's just an example of how changing a core belief. supports you in the Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: version that you are right now. And going back to the decades, We think of lifespan or developmental milestones only when we're kids. I mean, it's so obvious when you're a kid. You see the growth, you see them start to toddlers and children and adolescents. But once you get to your twenties, it seem you don't change as much physically and when you're if you're twenty-two or twenty-seven, like what's the difference kind of thing. It's does you don't really see it. there is double developmental changes that happen throughout every decade. And I'm where like you said before, I'm not gonna get into like Erickson and all that stuff. There it could be a whole nother podcast on that. But in our in our twenties, there is that part of of our experience that we are exploring. And what we're mostly like you said, free, independence, Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: We're trying to we're trying on different hats. we might miss a lot of our childhood, like being treated like we lose perks. Cassandra, LMHC: Yes. Daiana, LMHC: I remember I got a whole lot less gifts every year for Christmas as the older I got, and less Cassandra, LMHC: Mm. Daiana, LMHC: gifts for my birthday or whatever it is. So there's there is a grief of leaving your childhood behind and the pressure. To figure it out, that was major for me, my twenties. Cassandra, LMHC: I'm thinking about like the first time I realized I was the adult in the room. I used to teach and work with children Daiana, LMHC: Okay. Cassandra, LMHC: and there was this group of like rowdy children. I was, I don't know, Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: nineteen, twenty years old and I I was in a room with a bunch of like after school kids and they were doing this and they were doing that and I was like, I need an adult and then I was like, I am the adult. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: my god, I'm the adult. And so I had to figure it out. Like like you said, there's pressure behind figuring out, but I I had to. Because I was the adult in the room. And then also Daiana, LMHC: It's like you're technically that guy. Cassandra, LMHC: No, no, go ahead. Cause I was gonna Daiana, LMHC: Very Cassandra, LMHC: move on to my next ADHD thought. Daiana, LMHC: okay. I think that's what happens to us is that we both have ADHD, so we're like talking over each other. the part of being the adult in the room. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: I was in my thirties, I had kids, I still didn't feel like the adult. I'm like, who gave me these kids? Who says? Like, when did this happen? I don't think I started feeling like an adult honestly till 40. I feel like everything happened around my forty like turning 40, 39, 40 was when I really fell. And my birthday is coming up. I you know, I I've been saying I'm 44 this whole year. I've been 43 this whole year, but I've been saying for so I'm 44 again for the second time. No joke. Cassandra, LMHC: We're getting there. We're getting there. Daiana, LMHC: I I don't know why it got in my head that I'm 44. But I'm 44 again. Cassandra, LMHC: Isn't forty four? Daiana, LMHC: No, he's forty three. I'm six months older. I know. Cassandra, LMHC: Well look at you, Cougar. Daiana, LMHC: I know. People still say that I'm like a six months is nothing. But yeah, I I didn't start feeling like an adult. I d I knew I still called my aunts and uncles, my all my cousins called my aunts and uncles, like they're the adults. We're still the kids. Mind Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: you, we're all grown. Cassandra, LMHC: The other thing I was thinking about was in your twenties or in my twenties at least, so I'll speak from my own experience, was the first time I got like an adult paycheck. And it was after college when I had to get a full time job and I got a full time job and I got an adult paycheck and I was like, what is this? I have adult money. What is this? And like I was able to pay the rent from the rent on the room I was renting because that's what we were doing. And Daiana, LMHC: You are so good. Cassandra, LMHC: you know, all the different things. And then like if I wanted a snack, I could go buy a snack. Or I I had to choose not to because I was broke. But it was Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: in that moment that I was like, I never want to go back to school again because that Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: means you have to give up your adult money. Turns out that's not Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: true, especially in this day and age. But at the time it was. Like if you wanted to go back and get your masters, Daiana, LMHC: Simply. Cassandra, LMHC: you had to like set everything else aside. So it was Daiana, LMHC: Drop everything. Yeah. I that is such a fact because I remember thinking I need to get a master's before getting married and having kids because it's not gonna be possible then. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm mm. Education has become s Daiana, LMHC: This Cassandra, LMHC: in some ways more accessible, in some ways less accessible. It just depends on the day, I think. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So you said you paid rent. I you know, I remember my first paycheck from like my first real job. And I went out and bought boots. like expensive boots. And I was like, I am getting them. I think it and maybe at the time I would always look at these boots or sh you know, shoes. and like, man, one day I'm gonna be able to buy that or, you know, have to settle for something else. And girl has flat feet. So I still spend the money on the shoes and the sneakers because everything hurts my feet. But yeah, that just brought me back to that. Cassandra, LMHC: I'm just thinking because it was the early two thousands, like, did the boots have fur? Daiana, LMHC: They were boots with the fur. With the fur. No, they were and I was thinking, I'm like, Were they high boots? they were the ones that went like over your ankle. Cassandra, LMHC: Cute little booties. Well, Daiana, LMHC: Little heels. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: so as you were talking about earlier about being in your 30s and and feeling not even till your 40s that you were the adult in your room. The 30s is like you're building a hustling stage, right? Like this is where Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: you start establishing careers. some people ha start having families and figuring out what boxes they want to check. And the hard part about that is is in our twenties and our teenage years and even when we're kids, we have this idea of what it it's gonna look like when we're an adult, right? Like we set up these things, I'm gonna have a house, I'm gonna have this, I'm gonna have that. And then we can't or don't check the boxes that we thought we could, or even when we do, they don't bring the happiness that we thought it would. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: Or like what Andy was saying, when the house of cards falls, because sometimes these things are hanging on by a thread. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: And we lived through the recession in our Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: late twenties, early thirties. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: And that was a real thing. Like everyone's house of cards fell apart. Everybody's Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: like expectations for what this world Yep. Daiana, LMHC: The rules do keep changing. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: It all f it it all changed. Every single thing changed in two thousand and eight. Daiana, LMHC: I remember what you were saying, like I thought by twenty five, talk about Dululu, that I was just gonna have all these things, right? All the things you think about, the the family, career, house, all that stuff. and then in my thirties it was straight up hustle for me, building and checking off boxes and wanting to surpass that and And that was the the decade where I, had my family and thinking about it now, I think I hustled so hard because I think that with each child I felt like I lost a part of myself. And Cassandra, LMHC: I could say that. Daiana, LMHC: yeah, because when you're When you're having kids, your identity is shifting and you're not making all of those choices about how your life changes. I don't think we realize, I didn't realize how much becoming a parent changes your your life and your identity. Maybe I was trying to hold on to the identity. Who you know, who knows? But I know that I worked way too hard. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: Everything changed overnight. And the craziest thing about having children, and this is the weirdest thing to me, and talk about being the adult in the room, is Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: you're you're in the hospital or wherever you have your child at, Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: and then they're like, take it home with you. You're like, What do I do? They're like, you'll figure it out. Daiana, LMHC: Legit thought went through my head, it's like, do I have to tell does my mom have to be here for me to take this baby home? Cassandra, LMHC: Yeah. I'm like, so what do I do now? And they're like, We go home and you you take care of it. Yeah. Daiana, LMHC: Keep this thing alive. Cassandra, LMHC: That was my goal. That was yep. That bec Yep. Daiana, LMHC: Keep it alive. Just gotta do. We'll check on you in three days. Come back. See if they've gained weight or lost weight. So stressful. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: all of it. But w in like the the forties arena. Andy was a great example of a lot of different things that can happen in that in that arena. I said arena twice. But it's it's the midlife reevaluation. So Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: he became an older dad. I I am what you would consider an older mom. I had my first two children at like twenty eight and thirty. And then I had my last child at thirty eight. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: So there's a ten differ a ten year age difference between my oldest and youngest, almost to the day. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: And This grief this decade does bring the grief of realizing that your life is potentially half over. But it's also paired with deliberation of not really caring what a lot of people think. that kind of fades after Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: a while. And then being the person I am today with the child that I ha the small child that I have today versus the older children I have today. Like I talk about it pretty frequently, but she gets a much different mom than the older two got. Like the older two still get the mom that I am now. But they got the stressed out workaholic version that w had to work twelve hours a day just to make sure that we survived. And Clypey gets the one that like can breathe a little bit easier and sleeps better and does all of the things. Daiana, LMHC: Do they do you think the girls remember those years? Cassandra, LMHC: They remember some of They remember some of it. some of the stuff they remember I wish they didn't, but Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, the reason I ask Yeah. It's usually those things, right? There it's like the really high highs or the or the lows that the kids remember. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: Yeah. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. I think that if they do remember the bad things or things that you wish they didn't, it is just to process it with them, talk about it and Cassandra, LMHC: yeah. Daiana, LMHC: repair wherever you can because there and then there's this other side of it that my kids complain or comp or c like on a complaint parade about me the other day. And I because they want me to still, you know, tuck them in is fine, but they still want me to to facilitate or just do a lot as I did when they were little to put them to bed. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Right? Like I'm not there brushing their teeth or or doing all the all the things you do when they're little, when they need you for everything. And I'm like, girl, I did that, you know, I've been doing that for 13 years straight. And they were and then my oldest was like, Well, my cousin said that those are our unconscious years. So it doesn't count. I was like, Listen, my body says otherwise, okay? I was like, do you know how much my back hurt bathing you guys? Like three of you changing three diapers. You know, I was like, really? My 30s were all, you know, pregnant, recovering from being pregnant, breastfeeding. Like it was having each child was like a two-year and a half period of time of constantly giving. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: So there are many nights where I do feel bad that I don't have I don't have the energy to walk up the stairs and tuck them in. And I do feel guilt sometimes. And I also remember that I'm just human, that I'm I am exhausted, and it is okay to not do those things every night. And I still think about like, what can I change? How can I, you know, in real time, yesterday I took a shower at 5A 5 p.m. So that I'm like, okay, maybe this will refresh me for the evening. I feel like you need a whole second wind. Like you need to be like 5 a.m. at 5 p.m. for the after school energy you need. So it's it's it's a challenge, but I'm happy that it didn't hurt my feelings as much as I thought it would have. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: I'm just I'm dropping a little pro tip out here for ya. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: If you start going to bed at the same time as your youngest, my youngest goes to bed around like eight thirty. You Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: can have your teenagers tuck you in because you know they're not going to bed at eight thirty. Daiana, LMHC: You told me that they did that once, I don't know if they do that often, but it's so cute. Cassandra, LMHC: Yeah. No, they they tucked me in most nights. Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: Except for when I'm mad and I threaten them with an A Pm bedtime. And they're like, What are you gonna tuck us in again? I was like, Watch me. Watch me. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Yeah. They like to try us, right? Yeah. It's it's one of those things though that when I I saw it in your face that it does hurt when our kids remember a memory we don't want them to remember, or when I'm thinking about this is what they're gonna remember. And I want them Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. But then they Daiana, LMHC: to remember me and as a present mom, but so Cassandra, LMHC: They remember positive things that I forget. They remember like these little Daiana, LMHC: Sure. Cassandra, LMHC: moments that they're like, remember the time that we had the picnic lunch at the whatever? I'm like, No, but I'm glad you do. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you mentioned at the beginning of this, I forget if we s you said it before after we were quoting, but I think you did about having less years ahead of you. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. And that goes into what happens that in in our fifties, right? That the there's a lot of shift that goes on, whether it's emptiness or A caring for aging parents that could happen in the 20s, 30s, or 40s. It depends, you know, on the parent's age. A career peaks, or even in the 40s as well, changing careers. and I I hope that it's dissipating more, but people are saying that people don't say as much, I'm too old for to change careers. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: And that they're doing it because it's like well, it's either staying miserable or doing something different. Right. there's a symbolic loss of your of your youth, outgrowing roles in your in your 50s. I was just telling Cassandra definitely before this, is like, I cannot fathom retiring at 65. I feel like that is so late in life. And maybe it's because I'm going through the grief I'm going through now, but my dad didn't make it to 70. I had my you know, my godmother was only sixty-three. There are plenty of people I know that have passed in their fifties, forties, thirties, babies like children. We just don't know. We just don't know. And I was so consensual. I like, I don't care if I have to take a walk for fun because I can't afford anything else. I will find free things. what did I tell you? Like what is what is like 36 plus 18? Because I'm like, that's when I'm gonna start slowing down. And they have to still be I I'm never kicking my kids out, but I just they need to step up as an adult and help out because I am not I refuse to work that way. Cassandra, LMHC: It makes me think of two thousand twenty. That was another huge shift that we witnessed. The gentleman that taught our career counseling class. Daiana, LMHC: The one? Cassandra, LMHC: The the guy that the gentleman I said that caught taught our career counseling class, he called it Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: the great job something of twenty twenty. It was like migration or Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: or something to that effect. Do you remember that? Because everybody Daiana, LMHC: Yes, I know what you're talking about. Mm-hmm. Don't remember the term. Cassandra, LMHC: to I I don't remember the turn. Sorry about that, sir. People took the time because they were given the time and they were forced to have the time to actually evaluate what it was that they wanted. And some of them didn't want a traditional job any longer. Some of them wanted more education. Some of them wanted gig work, some of them but like people actually evaluated their life and what was important to them and then made shifts accordingly. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: And I just I find that astounding that it took an international pandemic to get people to place value on their work life balance. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: And those are things that typically happen during like your fifties. My my therapist got real excited when I had an existential crisis last year. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: she was telling me that I was wise for my age or something to that effect. 'Cause it doesn't normally happen until you're like in your fifties. but there's so much shift that happens during that time and then things like international pandemics kind of force it on you where you actually stop and look and reevaluate things. Daiana, LMHC: the pandemic actually facilitated things that I would have never even imagined. changes, moves that I would have never imagined. so yeah, I I just I was just thinking, I wonder what a 60 year old would say about what I'm saying about retiring. Because I and if you are in your 60s and you're listening, write us an email. Tell me what you're what you think about about what I just said about that. Because I know that you know in your 60s You are grieving physical mobility. You're losing, you're losing peers, family members, siblings, just you're losing, you've seen a lot of loss. And you're also finding deep wisdom and acceptance of your true self. I personally love when I have elder people as clients because I'm like you are in your 70s, 80s, and you're here. evaluating parts of yourself, making sure that you are enjoying your life fully, that you don't want to be petty with the grandchildren or in-laws or anything like that, that you want to have peace, have inner peace. So I I absolutely love that. I was reading something as we were I was researching things and like why people, why we die kind of thing. And it is when we're lacking purpose. Like people, they were saying that it's not it's biological, but it's also that your purpose. If you don't feel like you are contributing, if you feel I and I know a a lot of elderly struggle with that. I know I will struggle with that. Like if you can't move the same, do the same or you don't feel needed anymore. That's really, really hard. Cassandra, LMHC: Especially if you had the mindset of I'm only useful if I'm productive. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah. If you if you make it to if you're in your sixties and feel and still have that core belief, that's really, really hard. It's really hard. Yeah. Well as you can see, Cassandra, this is a topic that we can talk on forever because we Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: are like over time than we usually do and we're not even to the living loss lesson yet. So let's just do that. Move on to our favorite part of the show, Living Loss Lessons. Cassandra, LMHC: This is where we leave you with a tangible tool or mindset shift because it's not about fixing grief. It's about finding the strength to carry it. Daiana, LMHC: And today we want to leave you with three reflection questions. Also let us know if you're liking these reflection questions. I would love to hear. And it's to help you take inventory of your own identity and core beliefs. Cassandra, LMHC: So the first one is, and honestly I had like a little bit of a struggle the first time I read this. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: what is a core belief that you held in your twenties that you have completely outgrown and have allowed yourself to grieve the comfort it used to bring you? Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. That took me a minute and I'll share quickly that it was saving things. And when Cassandra, LMHC: Cool. Daiana, LMHC: I tell you it's movie ticket stubs, because it was our first date. Or, you know, I love Broadway and I would keep all of the little booklets. What are they called? Playbills. Cassandra, LMHC: Playbills. Daiana, LMHC: Jinx. Yeah, playbills. I kept all of those. I would keep just so much stuff. And when I was getting married and we're gonna be in an apartment It's like when we do have these transitions, it is an opportunity to make change. And I felt like I didn't want to take all of that with me. But I thought it was gonna hurt so much more than it actually did because I actually felt relief Cassandra, LMHC: I'm still struggling with that one because I used to save things myself. and I still do to a degree. But Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: like I have these bins in my garage that every year or two I go through and I purge more and purge more 'cause there've been so stuff from when I was growing up that I don't necessarily need anymore. And Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: things that used to be so important to me that just aren't. I'm not sure, I'm still gonna have to think about this one. And then I'll email us because I'll email us once I come up with what that is. Daiana, LMHC: You're gonna email us. Yes, email. Yes. Yeah, I would love to hear it. Cause it's gonna be really good. All right. So question number two is if you stripped away your job title, relationship status, and your family roles, who are you at your core? Cassandra, LMHC: Now this is like one of the scariest questions to answer, but it's it's Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: the exact work that Andy had to do when he lost his business and his marriage all in the same season. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, when you lose everything that you said salient, right? That identified Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: you in in that way. Did you think did you did you have anything to share? Cassandra, LMHC: I'm just I'm trying to think of if I can answer that without going into like my salient identity is because if you stripped away your Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. It's hard, right? Cassandra, LMHC: job title, your relationship status, your family roles, who am I at my core, it's something that changes and evolves so frequently that it's really hard to place your finger on it. I know that I'm empathic. I know Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: that, I care deeply about people and Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: experiences and I'm someone who gives and then realizes that I might have gone too far. And Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: so there's just like things like that. But to say who I am at the core, that's a that's a really introspective question. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. It is. And it's like, what if that is who you are in your core? Like that Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: that's the answer that you are a kind, caring person. You're an empathetic person. You can put yourself and I don't think it's a surprise that we're therapists because that's my number one as well. It's just kindness. It's consideration for people. And I know that I never want to hurt anyone. There was the there's this other section that I completely did not talk about today because it would have been a whole nother thing. But one of the our core beliefs is believing that the world is good, that people are good. Right. So then when people aren't, then that's when it hurts, right? But I and sometimes the world challenges that for me, right? It does it every day. Just look outside and it challenges like, is the world actually good? Are people actually good? But that is a core a core belief of mine. And I do think of that often. I think that I re like rebel against myself because there's nobody telling me anything of identifying only as a mom or only as a wife. There's nothing wrong with that. Right. Like you said, those salient things. And I want to know who I who I am. I think that's a question we always ask ourselves. And I think Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: that this is a question you don't answer in one day. It's a question you just continue asking yourself. all the time, you know, I did find okay, I am a caring person. I love movement. I love nature. So it's like those things, it's like what do you like? You think you might I don't know if you mentioned it. but hobbies, I think you did mention it, like things that you like become part of your identity. So that's a question that I don't think it has a definite answer. And we continue to explore it. And I think it is Cassandra, LMHC: I think it's something that's being answered all the time. Daiana, LMHC: mm-hmm It is. And like you were saying about Andy when everything just came up, because those things can be taken away. Your job, you can lose your job. You can, you know, lose friends and all of these things. So if you consider yourself like my identity is a friend, and you lose a friend, that's going to be crushing. So those are Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: that's why it's important to have both. To have those things that are not salient, that are not fixed, that are just your essence of Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: who you are. Mm-hmm. And question number three is what past version of yourself do you need do you need to gently say goodbye so that your current self has room to breathe? Cassandra, LMHC: I was thinking about that one as we were talking and I think it's the version that holds all of the expectations for what life is supposed to look like. I Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: don't know exactly where, like maybe like twenties something. yeah, clock that. somewhere around there, but like if I set my expectations for myself so high that I'm never going to reach them, then I'm gonna live in this constant flux of disappointment and grief because I'm not where I think I'm not where that version of myself thought I was supposed to be. Daiana, LMHC: Yes. Yes. And it's something that we were talking about happens in our twenties and thirties. So it's just like one of come on, like we gotta stop it. We gotta stop it in its tracks. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: Which is which is nice when you turn forty. you give a little less care about that's the most polite way I can say it. you give less care about what those expectations that at least other people are setting for you are. at least that's my hope for for our listeners is that they've hit the point where they they give less care about that. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. And I love that we're in our forties and we're feeling that because I've heard it in the past when people are in their fifties and sixties that now they don't care what other people think and you know, they have less care to give, as you were saying. Right. So Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: if we're doing it now, if something switched in us that we're just like, well I think there were times that we try to convince ourselves that we wanted to believe in. We're like, they're not paying our bills. They ain't doing you know like But I don't think that that was that was us trying to believe it. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: And I think that we came to a point that we're like, and Cassandra, LMHC: I had someone call me on that one day. I was like, I don't give enough about that. They're like, You give so many F's. I was like, I really do. That's That's fact. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. The therapist in me wants to ask you a question, but that we're we don't need to go there. but I'll say it for for our listeners is that when you do find yourself doing that, you can ask yourself, like, what else is true about that? Well, what it's something that I do believe about that is that I don't want to care. Because that Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: bridges from caring too much, as you were saying. So that's just a little extra tidbit there. Well. I think that if you're here into an hour of listening to us, I truly thank you. Thank you for spending this time with us. And be sure to hit subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if this conversation reminded you of someone who needs to know that their grief is valid, please share it with them. Cassandra, LMHC: And as always, a quick reminder, this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. While we are therapists, we are not your therapists. So and this does not replace professional mental health care. But if you feel like you would like to speak to someone, please reach out to a professional near you. Daiana, LMHC: We'll see you next week on The Living Loss.