Latest / The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten / "Getting Emotionally Closer Will Lead To Sex" Only Works For Preoccupied Attachment Women

Transcript

"Getting Emotionally Closer Will Lead To Sex" Only Works For Preoccupied Attachment Women · The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten

0:05
Hi everybody and welcome to the Doctor Psych Mom Show.
0:08
Today we're going to talk about the misconception among certain
0:13
women that getting emotionally closer will lead to more sex.
0:17
So within couples counseling couples counselors say that this
0:21
will happen. Yet people stay in couples
0:23
counseling for years and years. They learn all their, I feel
0:25
statements. They don't scream as much at
0:28
each other, which is great, but you know, it doesn't usually
0:30
take multiple years to accomplish, and the intimacy
0:34
never, never changes. So we will talk about when and
0:37
why and why this is correct for certain women but incorrect for
0:41
many, many people that I end up seeing in my office.
0:44
And before that, please do subscribe.
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1:01
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1:05
OK, so if you are a young preoccupied attachment woman,
1:09
who are the majority of women, young women that come into
1:12
couples counseling? So basically under 40, under 35
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young women, young mothers and the young mother stage, most
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there are more preoccupied attachment women than
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preoccupied attachment men. Most men, if they're insecurely
1:25
attached, are avoidant. Most insecurely attached women
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are preoccupied. The reason this may surprise you
1:30
is because obviously the men on the Internet, in relationship
1:33
forums, trying to seek relationship guys are solely the
1:36
preoccupied attachment men. So if you are a preoccupied
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attachment man that came to me from DSO or some other
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relationship site or a Reddit, you know, dead bedrooms,
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whatever. The men who post about
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relationships are definitionally preoccupied Attachment men
1:51
avoiding attachment Men are spending their time doing their
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hobbies and their work. They're in no way ever posting
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on the Internet about relationships, so you never see
2:00
them on the Internet. It's like they don't exist.
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So if you solely existed on the Internet, you would think that
2:04
there were no avoiding attachment men.
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You would think there was a bunch of preoccupied attachment
2:08
women though, complaining about these poor dudes that don't
2:12
really seem to exist because they're not in fact on the
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threads defending themselves because they don't go on the
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Internet that to discuss relationships because they're
2:20
avoiding attachment. Similarly avoid an attachment.
2:23
Women don't go on the Internet to talk about relationship
2:25
problems. So basically, as I've discussed
2:27
many times in my comments, there's some securely attached
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people who are trying to make their relationship better and
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we're interested in psychology, etc.
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But mainly, there's people who struggle with preoccupied or
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fearful avoidant the disorganized attachment style,
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not the avoidant attachment people.
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Those people do not. They're not interested in
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talking about emotions and relationships.
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That's literally the definition of who and what they are.
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So anyway, when these younger, preoccupied attachment women
2:57
come into therapy, they say things like he doesn't pay
3:01
attention to me, he never wants to hang out, he doesn't spend
3:04
anytime with me. All he wants to do is play video
3:07
games. All he wants to do is go out
3:09
with his friends. It's either work or his friends,
3:12
or it's work, the friends and the kids.
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But never me. He never asks anything about me.
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If I died, he probably would go to work the next day.
3:19
He would just replace me with somebody else.
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I have a whole podcast about avoidant husbands, and you could
3:24
listen to that in depth for what these women say and what these
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men act like. And of course, these are
3:28
preoccupied attachment women who are making the situation worse
3:32
for themselves by acting needy and clingy and possessive and
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jealous, which they're doing because they feel attachment
3:38
panic. And you can go back to my
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Attachment Styles podcast to read to to learn more about all
3:45
the attachment types in depth, which you probably should do to
3:48
make this easier to understand anyway.
3:51
So the point is, these young, preoccupied attachment women,
3:55
they still have all their estrogen.
3:57
They really want to bond. They want to be close.
4:00
They want to cuddle, they want to talk.
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They want to do all these romantic things.
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They wish their life was like more of a romantic comedy, and
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they just want to be close. They just always wanted to be
4:12
close in marriage. And now they're with this guy
4:14
that would rather, you know, look at his phone than hang out.
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And they're very sad, these women, if the guy learns to be
4:22
more emotionally close, they have more sex with him.
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I mean, that's the God's honest truth, you know?
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I mean, they want to be having sex anyway.
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They still have a sex drive. They're on the younger side.
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As I've said, they are sex positive.
4:34
They love sex, but it makes them feel very vulnerable.
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They don't maybe don't love it all the time.
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They are, after all, young mothers, so therefore exhausted.
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And their sex drive could be depleted by myriad things.
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By the way, just like everybody, monogamy itself, then nursing,
4:48
being pregnant, antidepressants, birth control, myriad things,
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right, You know, as I discuss all the time.
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So of course these women still do have responsive desire versus
4:59
spontaneous generally, but they do have some desire, you know,
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they do want to be close. When they think about a romantic
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evening. It does end up in bed, you know,
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but just end up in bed after a lot of romance, you know, and a
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lot of going out, you know, on date night and compliments and
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closeness and hands holding and cuddling.
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They want the elastic romantic stuff and I help guys figure out
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what this is. I've podcast on how to be more
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romantic for these women when they're in couples counseling.
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If the guy learns to express feelings till if he learns what
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attachment style is. If he learns not to be so
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dismissive and condescending, if he learns what what I call the
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Mr. Perfect and his crazy wife dynamic is and how he, you know,
5:44
contributes to that, and you could go back to that specific
5:46
podcast, Mr. Perfect and his crazy Wife.
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I also have a post on that. Then she does want more sex,
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truly. And the sex life wasn't bad.
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And what's an interesting thing is that preoccupied attachment.
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Women will give more sexual feedback because they actually
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want the sex life to be good, because they consider it a
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barometer of the overall, you know, connection.
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So these are the women who are giving feedback.
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Like, not like this or let's try this or that.
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Doesn't work or ow stop. No whatever.
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Not in the ow stop. No.
6:18
Like, let's not ever touch again, but like teaching the guy
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how to be better in bed. These are the women who care
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enough about the relationship and the sexual quality.
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You know, sometimes they care too much about it, that they do
6:30
want the sex to be better. So they do give feedback.
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Now, who does this whole approach of waiting?
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We we all learn about our emotions, we learn how to
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validate each other and then the sex gets better.
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Who does this not work for? It doesn't work for older women
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and a more avoidant women. So most of the time women who
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are at post 40 have older kids and are more avoidantly
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attached. This shit is not going to work.
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They don't want to be close to begin with, so why would it
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work? The guy is the one who wants
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both the romance and the sex, so it's not like he could give her
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more romance. The only thing that she ever
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said she wants is for him to do more shit around the house.
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And because he's avoided, women are usually over functioners,
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frequently over functioners, You know, it's like he under
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functions. So they got into that dynamic.
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She does do a lot of shit around the house.
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She does act like the CEO of the house.
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He's always done less than her. So yeah, he could learn to do
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more stuff around the house. And if he does, by the way, it's
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not like the sex improves either.
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So she doesn't want romance, so he can't do that.
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She wants more chores. He can do that.
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But these are the women for whom choreplay doesn't work.
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And I have a whole podcast called Choreplay Does Work.
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Choreplay is what the manosphere calls like doing chores, hoping
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to get laid. That does work, but it's for the
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preoccupied attachment women, the younger women, or the
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securely attached women. It's not for the avoidant
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attachment women. So there's a lot of guys who are
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preoccupied attachment guys that are with avoidant wives that
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nothing has seemed to work in couples counseling, and that's
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when they end up in my office, because they've spent years and
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years and they just don't know what to do.
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They're spending their wheels, time and money in couples
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counseling, and the woman does not grow closer in any regard
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and they're still in. Basically, a sexless marriage
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obviously is less than 10 times a week.
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As I say for that, that's a week.
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That's funny. Less than 10 * a year.
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As I have told you before, that's the research definition.
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So anyway, what do you do then that works better with more
8:25
avoidant women? Well, you have to address the
8:27
sex life directly. These women don't give sexual
8:29
feedback because they don't really care, you know, they
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don't care about the closeness as much.
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And again, I have a whole podcast on Avoidant Wives so you
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could figure out why and and how she became this way.
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And I have a whole pre podcast on Preoccupied Attack, a post on
8:43
Preoccupied Attachment Husbands and I believe a podcast on them
8:46
as well. So you can see why you're like
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how you are. But basically the guy is the
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pursuer and the woman is pushing away in every regard.
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She doesn't give sexual feedback because she doesn't care that
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much, you know, The whole intimacy of telling a man how to
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touch her body is overwhelming. Feels fake, feels awkward.
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These are the women who think the man should be a mind reader
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in bed. These women know women, by the
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way. Or no men know about responsive
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desire. There's like four people now.
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I'm just kidding. But like, you know, maybe 1% of
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people know about responsive desire.
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So you know, and I talk about the repeatedly with how stupid
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the bait and switch idea is because women are shocked when
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when their desire goes down too, you know, they assume it has to
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do with the man they don't know about monogamy, the effect of
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dog me evolutionarily and biologically on their drive.
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So anyway, the avoidant attachment women, they have to
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we have to talk about sex directly in the session because
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the guy could be doing all manner of shit that she hates.
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But she's never told him. She won't tell him if he's a bad
9:41
kisser. She won't tell him if she's been
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faking her orgasm. She won't even tell him if he
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smells bad. Why?
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Because she's avoided. She hates confrontation, she
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hates anything emotional, she hates any intimacy.
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And she's coupled with a preoccupied attachment guy who's
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super rejection sensitive. So if in bed she does say how
9:58
about like this? He usually loses his erection
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and sulks for three weeks. So you know it's not fully her
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fault as nothing is. It's all a dynamic.
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So a one major reason to discuss sex directly with avoid an
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attachment women is because it's a safe space where I could coach
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her to give specific sexual feedback and him to receive it
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in a way that doesn't turn her off ever giving it again by
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being overly sensitive and reactive.
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Whereas again, preoccupied attachment women and those who
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are younger with higher sex drives they care more about the
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sex life, so they will have given such feedback before much
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at much higher rates than avoid an attachment.
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Women will. And the next reason is because
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avoidant women, much like avoidant men, like to have
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specific goals and assignments. Honestly, they will often have
10:45
sex once a week when I tell them to, just so that they can avoid
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fucking talking about it all the time, which is so uncomfortable
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and upsetting to them. Also then there are like being a
10:55
good therapy student and many of these women are very high
10:58
achieving. They're people pleasing, and the
11:00
way in which people pleasing honestly works is when people
11:02
try to do a good job in therapy. Because even if they start to
11:06
try just to do a good job in therapy, they end up with their
11:09
momentum and then things feed on themselves.
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They start to enjoy having sex more, feeling closer, et cetera.
11:14
But it's like a little kid learning to read.
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In kindergarten. They could first learn how to
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read because they love the teacher and they love when the
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teacher acts happy, and then eventually they learn to read
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and they like reading by themselves.
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It's like any positive reinforcement.
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It could start out extrinsic and end up intrinsic.
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Next, by the way, is that that these people have to talk about
11:34
sex directly is because the man never gets to do this.
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So then he tries to do it on his own.
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And when anybody tries to DIY something that hasn't worked for
11:43
years already, it's not going to work this next time either.
11:45
So preoccupied attachment man talking about sex.
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He's got to be coached how to do it in real time, how to actually
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discuss sex in a way that isn't so aversive and overwhelming.
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Like, do you not even love me? Like, why don't you like to
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touch me? Oh, my God, I like to touch you.
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Just tell me anything that you like.
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Oh, please, please, please, please, please, please, please,
12:05
please. Until she wants to die, you
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know, So these guys have to be taught how to talk about sex in
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more of a matter of fact way where you know, she could
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actually engage. Because remember, she's not
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going to engage at a super high intense level.
12:19
She's not going to engage with him crying.
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She's not going to engage with him sulking.
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He has to be coached to talk about sex in a different way.
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People don't talk about sex at all, pretty much in our culture.
12:29
So specifically, men who are very emotionally intense tend to
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bungle these conversations because there's so much feelings
12:36
involved, there's so much hurt, and they're more rejection
12:39
sensitive in general. So it ends up being kind of
12:41
terrible. So for all those reasons, you
12:44
know, we need to talk about sex directly in couples counseling,
12:47
specifically with women who are avoided.
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Now, why don't? Now, of course, preoccupied
12:51
attachment women, and they're avoiding attachment husbands
12:55
could benefit from talking more openly about sex as well.
12:58
So then why don't therapists do it?
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Well, when you only have a hammer, every problem looks like
13:03
a nail, right? I mean, like, if you're not,
13:06
most therapists are not interested in talking about sex
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in session. They don't want to.
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They haven't been trained in it. They haven't done their own
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research. You know, their own, you know,
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autodidact. What is it being an autodidact?
13:16
That's what I am, where you teach yourself and your research
13:20
and everything. But because, I mean, unless you
13:24
go to a specific program that is added on after you've been a
13:28
licensed therapist, such as getting an ASEC certification or
13:31
something, that's the American Academy of Sexual something.
13:33
Something which people who have been qualified is that literally
13:38
tell me don't do that. It was a lot of a lot of effort
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and a lot of time and you could just read the stuff yourself.
13:44
But I'm sure that that a lot of people like like it.
13:47
It's just those funny. Some two people told me that
13:50
anecdotally but anecdotally is nothing.
13:53
So ASEX certification is great. I just don't want to offend
13:55
anybody. The the the point here is unless
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you have either training or interest, ideally both, in
14:05
sexuality, you're not going to want to talk about it.
14:07
And the majority of therapists don't.
14:08
They like to talk about feelings.
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That's why they became a therapist.
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So if you like to talk about feelings, that it makes sense
14:14
that everything would start and end with feelings.
14:16
And since you don't really know what to or talk about in the
14:19
sexual domain and you don't want to talk about it because it
14:21
makes you feel uncomfortable, then you're never going to talk
14:25
about it. So therefore if you have an
14:27
avoid an attachment wife, you should definitely be talking to
14:30
somebody who at the very least says that they're sex positive
14:33
on their website. Which means that you could bring
14:35
sex up and generally has some further education, interest,
14:40
training, anything about sex. You know, I mean, I only hire
14:45
people at my practice at Best Life who at least are sex
14:48
positive. And I specifically ask in the
14:50
interview, are you comfortable talking about sex in session?
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And if not, then we don't hire them, you know?
14:54
But that is not the case and everybody doesn't want that.
14:57
As I just talked about, there's plenty of preoccupied
15:00
attachment. Young women who just want more
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cuddling and more closeness and and less dismissiveness and less
15:06
him acting like a Dick wad and more of him doing chores and
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helping and us being a team and going to the, You know, the
15:12
Fucking Pumpkin festival together with our baby.
15:15
And then they do have sex during the fucking baby's nap time and
15:19
they're thrilled to do it. But if you're at the situation
15:22
where you've always been pursuing her for sex, you have
15:24
no idea what she likes or doesn't like in bed.
15:27
She'll never talk to you about the relationship and couples
15:30
counseling. You've been spinning your wheels
15:32
for months, if not years. Well, then you obviously need to
15:35
transition into something else where sex is discussed more
15:37
directly for the reasons that I've just delineated, You know,
15:41
I mean, it's kind of frustrating.
15:43
It's for I'm frustrated on the behalf of so many people that
15:47
come in and say that they were in couples counselling for
15:49
years, and then I asked how much they're having sex, which was
15:52
literally the guy's main problem.
15:54
And it's like, oh, we don't really even have sex, like once
15:57
a once a month, twice a month. I mean, this is, this is where
16:01
you got to after years, you know, and and the interesting
16:05
part is that many of these women will say that they've made a lot
16:07
of progress in therapy. Sure, he knows how to talk in a
16:10
way that she likes better. He's a better father.
16:12
He's more involved with the kids.
16:14
He can understand the feeling. If it hits him in the face,
16:17
great, Wonderful. I'm glad.
16:18
But you know, that's not where shit begins and ends.
16:21
Both people's needs need to be addressed.
16:24
So This is why you need to be directly talking about your sex
16:27
life. So, for example, I work with
16:28
people. They didn't tell their husband
16:30
that they didn't like his four play style for 15 years because
16:33
they're more avoiding people. They have no language to say and
16:36
nobody's prompting them. Anytime they started a
16:38
conversation, he looked like he was gonna jump out the window
16:41
because he he's so rejection sensitive, being preoccupied
16:44
attachment. I mean, it just went to garbage.
16:46
And so that's what they could have been doing in the second
16:48
session, or like at least the second month.
16:51
Meanwhile, it's been like, Oh yeah, we saw, we saw like 3
16:54
therapists, 3 couples therapists off and on over the course of
16:58
the past 12 years, 12 fucking years.
17:00
You could have like 5 rental properties with that money, man.
17:04
You know, then you could divorce each other more readily because
17:07
you would have more income. Listen, I don't.
17:11
I don't want anybody to get divorced, right?
17:13
But I'm just saying, you know, or, like, people could get
17:16
sooner to, like, literally somebody figuring out that they
17:19
don't want sex and will never want sex.
17:22
We don't need two years of couples counseling if you
17:24
discuss sex directly from the beginning because many women
17:28
were like, well, shit, we're doing it once a month.
17:30
Isn't that good? Because it's never, literally
17:32
never been discussed in the session.
17:34
Besides this nebulous construct that as they get closer than
17:38
probably definitely. Why not?
17:41
The sex life will improve and it doesn't.
17:43
It never, ever does. Not least of which is because
17:48
nobody has ever talked about desire, nobody's ever given any
17:51
given any education, even about responsive desire, that the
17:55
woman actually has to get herself in the mood and try to
17:57
have sex, to enjoy sex. I mean even just that.
18:01
Never mind the sexual feedback, never mind the assignments being
18:05
better for avoiding people, never mind any of it.
18:07
Literally, they still don't know what responsive desire is, nor
18:10
have they ever put themselves into a situation where they
18:13
could try to have sex and see if it gets them in the mood to have
18:15
sex, which is the only way that monogamous women enjoy sex.
18:19
So I mean, like, it's just, it's it's really unconscionable, you
18:22
know? So so before I, you know, get
18:25
even more upset about this topic, take it for what it's
18:28
worth. If this is your situation, it
18:30
will definitely resonate with you.
18:32
Try to find a sex positive. At the very least a sex positive
18:36
therapist. Better would be somebody who is
18:39
either certified in sex stuff or that you see on their profile,
18:45
at least that they work with sexual issues.
18:48
You know, I mean that that they're experienced with it,
18:52
that they're trained in it, that they care about it, that they
18:55
think that it's important for a marriage.
18:57
You know, you you wouldn't if you were Catholic and you were
19:00
like super Catholic, you would not go to, you know, a therapist
19:04
who said the Catholics were stupid, right.
19:07
So you I know that nobody comes out there and their profile says
19:11
that sex is stupid, but if sex is nowhere in be nowhere there
19:16
for like what they work on with couples.
19:18
If it's all feelings all the time and there's nothing about
19:21
sex, and you could infer that they do not prioritize it in
19:24
their work with you. And of course, you could always
19:27
reach out to me directly and for any of my people, at Best Life,
19:30
I even have a sex coach. She's not a therapist, but she
19:33
works specifically and concretely on sexual issues.
19:35
Heather Ray, the sexologist on My Best Life behavioral health
19:38
website. And she could augment your, I
19:41
feel statements with your counselor if you love them so
19:43
much and they're doing so much to help you.
19:46
Another thing, this is like, totally beyond the scope of
19:48
this. But if you've never talked about
19:50
either of your childhoods or your sex life in couples
19:53
counseling, you got to do a deep dive on what the fuck you're
19:55
doing. You know, I mean, you really do.
19:57
There's only so many, I feel, statements that somebody can
19:59
say. And I feel statements are great
20:02
for people who are raised to communicate, Like lunatics, like
20:04
all of us that grew up with parents that shout at each
20:06
other, like Banshees all the time, is really an eye opener to
20:10
know that people don't have to do that.
20:11
But if that's where your couple's counseling begins and
20:13
ends, then you're doing yourself a disservice and you're doing
20:15
your wallet quite a disservice, by the way, too.
20:18
And it's really hard to find time to schedule if you got all
20:20
that time and money back, you know, I mean, you would be
20:24
happy. So anyway, this isn't the one to
20:28
share with your wife, because it's just not.
20:31
It's just not like this. Don't send it with your wife.
20:35
And then she's going to be like, no, I really think that Marcia
20:38
has helped us a lot over the past three years.
20:40
Okay, cool. That's that's awesome.
20:42
No offense, Marcia, who of course is a hypothetical name of
20:47
nobody that I know, but it sounded like a good therapist
20:51
name. I'm sure Marcia helped you a
20:53
lot. But if you're still having no
20:56
intimacy in your marriage and this bothers one of you, then
20:59
perhaps Marcia could be augmented with something else.
21:02
You could stay with Marcia, you know, stay with Marcia, stay
21:07
Marsha. It's great.
21:09
But if you have never discussed your genitals in session, then
21:13
maybe that something else you know can you can add to the
21:17
benefit of Marsha. All right, I'll talk to
21:20
everybody soon. I hope you found this funny and
21:22
or informative. One or the other is great and
21:25
have a great day guys.