Latest / Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor / Discovering Your Ikigai with the Japanese Rock-star Neuroscientist, Ken Mogi

Transcript

Discovering Your Ikigai with the Japanese Rock-star Neuroscientist, Ken Mogi · Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Welcome to another edition of the podcast. My guest today
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: is Ken Mogi, a Japanese neuroscientist, senior researcher at Sony
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Computer Science Laboratories and a visiting professor at the Tokyo
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Institute of Technology. Ken has written over one hundred books, yes,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: one hundred in Japanese on topics as diverse as brain science, philosophy, history, art,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: education and linguistics. Ken is known in Japan as a
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: rock star neuroscientist, and it's pretty easy to see why,
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: as he's a super cool, super smart, engaging guy. He's
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: also recently released his first book in English, which is
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: called ikey Guy, and the word ikey guy roughly translates
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: as a reason to live, and today we discuss how
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: to find your ikey gay. Ken Mogi, Welcome to the
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Mind Body Brilliant Project Podcast.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: It's such an owner to talk to you.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: The honor Ken is all mine, So Asoul said kichwa,
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: yeah yea to you. And so, so you are a
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: neuroscientist just like you are, yeah, just like me. But
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: you are a writer just like me. But while I've
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: written articles and I'm writing one book, you've written around
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: a hundred books. Is that correct?
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, in Japanese. In Japanese, Yeah, in Japan, I'm kind
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: of a well for the rec or bitter expressions rockstar.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Rock star author. Yeah, scientists, you.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: Love that to be to be modest. But uh, in
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: the English speaking world, my first book was The Little Book.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Of a Little Bit of a Guy, which I have
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: right here.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Oh that's great, thank you. So that was my first
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: English book, and the second one is coming out of
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: this April. It's called The Way of Nagomi. Nagomi is
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: the Japanese concept for barns, and you know, diversity and
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: how to harmonize different elements in your life and how
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: to robust.
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: And so so.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: Oh well, we will definitely have a little bit of
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: a conversation about nagomi because I think it's very important,
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: especially now with the global pandemic making Bernard and I know,
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: I know that you know about karashi in Japan. I
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: think it's now Japan's latest export karashi because we're all
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: getting getting burnt art. Is that I pronounce it right?
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: That death by overwork?
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well, but you know this is something really interesting.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: I know you're a hard worker. I know you take
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: a walk with your dog and your kid and you know,
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: and you really busy giving public rictures and so on.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: But I think if you have the right mindset, of
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: course you obviously you can enforce this to other people,
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: but you can work really hard and yet enjoy every minute.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: Don't you agree with that?
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: I totally agree when when you are passionate about what
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: you do, and I think and that ichy guy. And
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: actually it's a nice introduction to ikey guy because I
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: don't know if you know this, but there is a
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: guy who he creates a Western guy, and he created
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: this diagram of viky guy that that he modified it right,
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: and it's all over the internet. So if our listeners
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: are too and type ikey guy into Google, this diagram
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: will come up. And it's and it's all about it's
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: all about work and that work being a purpose and
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: and work being akey guy. But that's not really what
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: achy guy is about really in Japan?
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: Is it?
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: It's it's one part of it. But so let's start
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: from the top war What is the word ikey guy
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: mean in Japanese?
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: Right the world Ichi means to live and the guy
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: means the reason. So literally, it's the reason for your life.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: The reason why you keep going. And you know, the diagram,
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: which has become really famous is an Western interpretation, yes,
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: the concept and which is really great, which I think
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: is really helpful, but originally in the philosophy of the Japanese.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: I it's something much wider than your work. I mean,
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: it's something that can, you know, for example, make you
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: get out of the bed every morning. In my case,
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: I take a little piece of chocolate with my coffee,
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: and that can be my itchy guy. In your case,
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: I understand, you take a walk with your dog and.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, run, Yeah, I go for a run with my
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: dogs and oh yeah, and that and and that's a
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: little morning ritual I have. And also I like to
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: have a cup of tea on my balcony. And sometimes
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: I hear these these these birds that are native to
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: Australia called cuokoa.
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: You ever heard of cookaura?
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: Oh, they are these fantastic birds and it's like they're
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: laughing and they all go together, and it brings me
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: such joy to listen to cukerba and and reading your book,
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: I realized, actually that's one of my ikey guys. So
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: you don't just have to have one nickey guy.
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: Is that correct.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: Spectrum of ike guy and you know probably you know,
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: without trying to be too deep from the beginning, I
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: should also mention that in Japan, traditionally it was considered
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: that there are eight million gods, I mean, you know,
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: just not one god, eight million gods. Eight million actually
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: is equivalent to infinity. So there was this concept that
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: in the there are so many different important elements, not
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: just one commandment or just one deity. So I think
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: this traditional approach to life in Japan has a lot
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: to do with this concept of a really broad spectrum
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: of ichy guy. Whereas in the West, yeah, people tend
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: to think in terms of vocations and missions.
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: Yes, purpose life, yeah.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and purpose and so the famous ikey guy diagram,
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: I think is a really great Western interpretation of the concept.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: For us in Japan, we take a more liberal, diverse
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: approach to life.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: And you know, yes, and and look, but part of
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: this is to try and get the proper message charge
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: right and actually that guy to be for to be
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: fair to him, he said, oh, I did this, and
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: now this thing has exploded. But I was only I
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: didn't mean it to be all of ikey guys like this.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: I think he was just talking about work ikey guy, right.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: So but most people when they think about Ikey Guy,
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: they think about this diagram. Right, So so let's let's
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: dig into Ikey guy a little bit.
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: So you talk in your book and.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: That there are five pillars of aikiy guy, right, and
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: and we'll I think it would be really useful to
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: go to those pillars one by one, right, and and
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: I can I can start you off. So the first
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: pillar that you talk about is starting small. And so
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: what you would you mean by that?
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: You know, Paul, Uh, you're writing a book now, right,
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: and you know it's really hectic, uh your job. I mean,
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: it's audious to write a book. And but but every
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: book starts with one sentence, right, It's you write one
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: sentence and gradually it becomes an entire argument or theme
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: that you right to present. So you know, our life
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: is like a book. I mean, you know, you can
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: dream of really big things, but after all, uh, it
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: should be it's just with the region step you take. So,
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: you know, in today's world, because of we are living
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: in a globalized economy and they're such a hard competition
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: and people are always aware of what's on the market
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: and so on. So I see many people in Japan
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: too who are kind of crash because they feel that
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: they are not really up to the job and they
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: cannot really do well in the market and so on.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: So it's really important to realize that everything, uh starts small,
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: every you know, big project, if your company, and so
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: you have a company, right, I mean, did you you
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: should have you started small? Right?
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: I mean absolutely absolutely, yeah. And I think I don't
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: know if it's a is it a Japanese proverb that
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: the journey of a thousand miles starts with the smallest step.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure where that proverb is from, but and
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: it's kind of what.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: You Yeah, in Japanese it's called sand which literally means
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: journey of a thousand wires starts from this small one step.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: And so that's a really Japanese Buddhist way of taking
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: a really moon shot to a long shot project. And
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: you know, but if you think about it, it's in
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: the West too, because Steve Jobson, Steve wasn't it They
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: started Appu in the.
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: Garage and you know, yes, that's right.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: At that time, nobody would have suspected that it would
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: produce iPhones and ipatnuer and so on and so yeah.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: And so how does that starting small or how does
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: that relate it directly to echy guy? Is that what
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: you mean when you talked about your your your little
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: bit of chocolate with your cup of your cup of coffee.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for that's the million there's question actually, uh,
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: you know, so in terms of Ichy Guy, the first
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: step that you take is as variable as the whole thing.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: So in Japanese philosophy, you know, even when you train
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: as a Buddhist monk, uh, even sweeping the gardens is
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: considered to be a really important aspect of the training.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: So everything that seems trivial it's taken really seriously. So
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: in the philosophy of Ikey Guy, the really tiny part
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: of the whole picture, it's actually equivalent to the you know,
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: the whole thing.
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: Rather like it's rather like the concept of fractures in physics,
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know frac, Yeah, I mean so in fact,
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: a really small part of the universe is considered to
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: be equivalent in essence to the whole universe. Right, So
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: I think there's this really interesting connection between Guy and
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: the fractal geometry.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: Right, Okay, Yeah, so I'm a little bit familiar with fractals.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: Some of some of our our listeners wouldn't be familiar
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: with fractals, but I would encourage them just to google
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: fractals and see how fractals are really important in nature, right,
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: and you see fractals everything plants and trees, and yeah, wow,
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: we were gonna have a big conversation about fractals, I think. So.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: So this idea of starting small is the idea is
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: not not to weigh for this big, massive purpose in
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: life and all of this, but just to start doing
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: something that you find enjoyable, that gives you a reason
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: to get up.
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: Is that correct?
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And in Japanese tradition, the first day
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: of a period is always considered to be the most important.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: For example, we visit the Shinto shrines on the first
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: New Year's Day and we make resolutions new Year's resolutions. Yeah,
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: and when we you know, when the Buddhist monks train
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: in the temples, the first day is always considered to
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: be the most important of the whole period. So there's
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: this emphasis on the first small step that you take,
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: and it's I think it's deeply embedded in the Japanese culture.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's something that should be deeply embedded in
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: behavior change, particularly when it comes to health. Right, because
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: a lot of you know, if there and I often said,
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: a lot of people they're they're overweir it and and
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: they think about where I want to be. But we
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: know from from from the science of it that when
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: you when you think about where I am and where
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: I want to be, and if that distance seems really large,
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: it can stop you from even starting.
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: So this idea actually of just starting.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that is you know, uh, expertise, right. I mean,
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: so when you teach people how to exercise, you know,
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: they would feel sometimes that well, it's such a wrong
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: journey and I can look at but as you say,
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: if you take the first step, then you know you
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: can graduate work on it. And it's it's the first
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: step that it's psychologically the most important because the barrier
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: between you know, you and you.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: Know and getting and getting getting started. Look, I often
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: say to people, particularly if they are really struggling, I
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: say to them, let's take action. I said, Okay, all
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: I want you to do for the first month is
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: you come home from work, you put your exercise gear on.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: I don't want you to exercise, Just put your exercise
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: gear on.
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: That's it. That's all you have to do.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: And you know what, I often get people, people who
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: have coaches, that come back to me and go, you
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: know what, after day number five, I thought, why am
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: I doing? I just need to go and do some
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: exercise now because I've got my exercise gear on. But
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: all I ask them to do is put your exercise
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: gear on, and then after a while, maybe they take
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: the next step. Maybe not, but often they will take
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: the next step. So let's talk about the next step.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: In echy guy and you you talk about that the
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: step number two is releasing yourself. So what do you
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: mean by the what do you mean by releasing yourself?
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: Well, this is a really interesting concept in Japan, uh,
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: you know, uh, I think the Japanese people are generally
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: considered to be well reserved and well disciplined, but when
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: we are in really close relationships, we let her heart out,
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: you know. With it's called home nee nd tatmai and
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: tatima is a social appearances something that you would be
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: supposed to say in association, whereas home ne this is
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: a true heart and you are allowed to reveal your
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: true self to your close friends and family members. And
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: so there's in Japan there's has been always this contrast
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: between uh, the social appearances and true heart and so
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: in you know, I don't know how it is in
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: Australia right now, but because of COVID, people have been
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: kind of having a really difficult time getting really crows
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: how to hut discover a conversation with other people. Right.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: But you know, unless you really release yourself, you cannot
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: really have your ekey guy. Because ike guy represents your
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: true self. It's not something that you would like to
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: present to the society or it's not something that you
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: need to do to keep social appearances. So I wonder
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: how it is in Australia right now. I mean, is that.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: There is definitely I don't think it's as strong as
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: it is in Japan. But but certainly the the the
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: idea of my you know, and this all comes to ego,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: as you know that the ego there, the self that
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: I present to others may not be my my personal
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: self or my private sense. And and and for sure
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: that that you know, you reveal more of your deep
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: inner thinkings and workings and desires and fears to people
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: who you're you're close with, right, it's about that that
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: vulnerability I think plays into it. But you also talk
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: about a certain Hungarian psychologist and that we are both
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: fans of me Hih Chase met me high and flowst
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: it and so talk to me about the the overlap
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: between Flowsted and Dickey Guy.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the course of the flow is really important and
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: it's about Well, you're a neuroscientist too, so you should know.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: But when you're in a frow, you really release yourself
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: and it's how the brain disinhibits the potential within you.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: So when it's a really interesting well you are a
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: three too, so you should know. But when athletes compete
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: in the Olympics and they win the gold medal, uh,
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: their run seems to be almost effortress because they don't
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: push themselves. They actually release themselves and that would induce
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: the maximum performance from their body. And so that's really
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: related to this concept of releasing yourself. In by releasing yourself,
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: you would be the best performance that you can be
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: without any sense of stress or effort. And I regard
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: this as a probably the most single most important wisdom
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: in life. I mean, you know, you can work hard,
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: but you don't have to feel any stress for that,
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: M yeah, absolutely, and and and it's interesting you talk
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: about that, that that releasing yourself. And so I have
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: done a little bit of karate in the last number
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: of years and competed and also did some mindset coaching
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: for the younger athletes who were trying to go to
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: the World Games, right, And when I was talking to them,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: what came up was a particular theme that they get
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: more like the times when things didn't go well, they
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: seem to be focused on the outcome, and the times
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: that they fought beautifully and had their best performances, they
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: weren't thinking about the outcome. They weren't thinking about the result,
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: they were just engaged fully in the combat, right. And
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: I think that's that's one of the key essences of flow.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: And I think from my understanding, what you're talking about
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: releasing yourself, it's really you're not self aware when you're
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: in flow state because you're you're fully engaged in the process.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: And you don't have to be an athlete to be
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: inflows to it, right, And somebody who's doing sudoku can
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: be Infloa state, somebody who's doing a crossword, somebody who's
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: doing knitting, like any sort of a hobby. So so
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: my question is do you hide. Closely related are the
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: concepts of flow and the concept of ikey Guy, Like
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: can you have ikey guy on something without being in flow?
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: And can it just be a little bit of moment
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: of joy or does it have to be a deeper state?
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: I think in like in character, I think there are
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: black bearls and you know all these classes of performances.
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: Are you so you can ah nice? Yeah?
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: And if you uh, you have a black belt in guy,
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: you would be always in the frog state. Yeah, no
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: matter what you do. If you go to a sushi
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: restaurant in Tokyo, I hope you can do that in
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: one of these is because they they are always in
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: the frosted. The sushi chefs, they obviously they are working
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: days are really long and arduous because preparation of fish
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: in the sushi restaurant involves many steps and you know,
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: meticulously done. But whenever you go to a really fine
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: sushi restaurant, you can tell that the sushi chefs they
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: really enjoy doing that. I mean, it's not something that
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: needs to be you know, enjoyed. They really enjoy every
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: second of it. And so they there you can tell
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: that preparing sushi is their iki guy, and at the
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: same time it's their joy because they are in the
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: frosted so they are wearing the black belts.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: I like your I like your analogy. And you know
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: what my first experience of that ken was, I haven't
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: I haven't been to Japan. It's we're hoping to go
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: next year. But I was in Singapore. I was in
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: Singapore in a little Japanese restaurant I used to go
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: to every time, and I loved to go in and
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: sit at the bar and watch the chef make the
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: food and just the focused concentration and the amount of
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: artistry that went into making food. I could tell that
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: even without speaking to him, he didn't think that he
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: was just preparing food. He was He seemed to me
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: like he was making a work of art because he
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: was so engaged in the process and such detail went
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: into it. It was just it was fascinating to me.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: And that's put on So yeah, and you know, since
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: you were in the army, maybe you know something about
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: being in the you know fight, Uh, you know combat zone.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: And you know, if you take the example of yeah
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: you you were, and if you take the example of
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: the samurai warriors.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: There's this very famous book by uh Miaotoo. It's called
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: The Ring of the Book of Five Rings. I think
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: it's translated in English, and uh he told tales that
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: in order to be really the best samurai warrior, you
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: need to be in the frost state. So you don't,
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: you know, you should you shouldn't really think that, oh,
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: this is life and death and if you don't do it, well,
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: you would be killed. And so uh he is just
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: in this continuous throw state of you know, uh using
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: the samurai sword and all these things. So so I
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: you know, so it can that the thrust, it can
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: be appright to the case of a sushi chef. But
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: at the same time two, uh, a samurai warrior in combat.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: Any experience from you.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: You know, now, my biggest experience actually of that because
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: because fortunately when when I was in the military, I
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: didn't end up in war. But my biggest experience personal
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: experience of that is when I was boxing and I
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: had my first and my one and only professional boxing
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: fact and when the bell rang I remember there was
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: there was a lot of people in the room and
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: there was a lot of noise and everything and blah
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: blah blah or you know, sensory overload. And when the
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: bell rang for the for the first round, my whole
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: sensory experience went sh right were I came in into
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: a complete tunnel vision where all I could see was
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: my opponent and even though I was a word that
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: was noisy, I really didn't couldn't couldn't focus on on
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: the noise that everything. And it was my first experience
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: of of what I expect is that true fireflight where
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: there's so much adrenaline and no adrenaline in the Brian
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: that that just everything was bomb that was floawst in,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: I can tell that was that was black belt, That
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: was black belt floats in.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sure. So, you know, support, I
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: think it's it's really important that uh, releasing yourself can
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: be applied to when you have a really wonderful conversation
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: with your close friend and this is really relaxed and enjoyable,
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: but at the same time it can be applied to life.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: What deathitiation, you know, what fight to our fright station.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: So I think it's a really robust biological phenomenon. Yeah,
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: this important the frost in.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and when the buddh is releasing yourself, is any
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: of this Is it related to awareness of self in
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: the moment?
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: And oh yeah, yeah, that's really interesting. I mean so
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: sent to me high. She argued that in when you
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: are in the frosted, you forget yourself, I mean, you
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: are not aware of yourself. And interestingly, the whole Japanese
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: culture has been about how to be released from your ego,
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: I mean in the Buddhist trains, that's the single important issue.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: How you can be you know, even free from your
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: own desires and interest and and productically, when you are
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: released from your own self interest, you would be the
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: best performer. You know that in that way, you would
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: be serving yourself interest, you know in the end. So
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: this is a real.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: To not be self aware. It's very very interesting. Okay,
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: So the next component of aky guy that you talk
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: about is harmony and sustainability, and so talk us through
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: that because it's pretty important in Japanese culture, isn't.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: It It is? Uh, you know, we have the longest
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: standing hereditary monarchy in the world, the Imperial House. I
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: think the current emperor is one twenty sixth Wow on
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: the throne.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: You know the reason why the Imperial family has been
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: running so long is they have been avoiding all these conflicts.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, so you know it's an at barns. I mean,
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: so in the world were all aware there are conflicts
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: and you know, botles and so on. Yes, so that
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: the secret of the Imperial family was. You know, in
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: the history of Japan, they having many samurai warriors who
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: were ready mighty and strong at one period, but the
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: imperial household never took sides with one particular samurai. I
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: mean they always kept really cali curated and sophisticated distance
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: to all different samurai warriors, and that was their you
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: know wisdom.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: Mhm.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: We are living in a world where people ah in
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: in echo chambers and they listened to what they're like,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: and there is bipartisan politics and I'm sure you have
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: your share in Australia too. Uh So in Japan, this
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: is really wonderful wisdom that if you want to make
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: it work life sustainable, you should really take a well
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: callicated balance between different elements, and you should really you
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: shouldn't really make friends and face and aside with the friends.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, do you have any any real life experience
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: like that in your life?
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to think about that in terms of application
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: to me. And look, I can certainly tell you that
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: that I got in trouble. Well. Look, actually because I'm
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: from Northern Ireland, right, so that that's very interesting.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, that's right.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So in Northern Ireland, as you may well know,
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: and we have this three hundred year old feud that
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: that we affectionately called the Troubles, right, and then in
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: the in the nineteen particularly the nineteen fifties, sixties, nineteen
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: seventies and a little bit into the eighties, it was
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: quite serious. There was a lot of bombings, a lot
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: of killings between the Catholics and the Protestants, right, And
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: there's actually not much difference from a religious perspective, right,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: it's more tribal.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: But very interestingly, my parents got married one was a
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Catholic and one was a Protestant in the nineteen sixties
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: and that was quite taboo. That was quite taboo. It
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: didn't happen very often. And actually my mother's father didn't
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: speak to her for years because she married a Catholic, right,
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: So we were brought up as Catholics, but we always
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: lived in Protestant neighborhoods. So all throughout my childhood I
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: had this thing right. But in Northern Ireland, the first
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: school that was integrated school with Catholics and Protestant nineteen
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: eighty five, right, So when I was growing up, you
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: either went to a Catholic school or you went to
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: a Protestant school, and in most cases it was a
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: Catholic neighborhood or a Protestant neighborhood. But I got brought
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: up in this balance right where I went to school,
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: and sometimes that was challenging because I'm wearing a Catholic
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: uniform walking through Protestant areas and so part of one
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: of your chapters that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger,
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: that was interesting, but it actually really helped me because
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: as I grew up later, and you know, as people
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: become a little bit more sensible, but even at university
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: where people are educated, when you push them, there's still
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: they revert to that tribal thing. And I think largely
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: because of our upbringing, I really didn't cur whether people
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: were Catholics or Protestant. I mean, I'm an Irish Catholic
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: who joined the British Armed Forces, or in northern Irish
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: cat we joined the British en Forces. That's quite quite rare.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: So I think that would be my closest experience of
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: that where you don't pick a side and you you
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: navigate the dance between the two sides.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: No, that's wonderful and thank you. I'm really moved to
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: hear your personal history, and you might you must have
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: had a really you know, difficult time from time time.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, so I can't imagine how you try to
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: establish a self identity in the stitution. But that's the classic,
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: really wonderful example of how to live a life of
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: each guy based on this principle of harmony, answerstainability. That's
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: really great, you know. So yeah, I mean, so today's world,
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, people take size too often to absolutely and
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: from seeing from the outside, well, the Japanese are sometimes
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: considered to be really ambiguous and enigmatic and not really
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: clear on things. But deep down I think that the
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: Japanese people are exercising in this philosophy of ikiye, which
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: is as you mentioned, there is not such a great
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: difference when you think about it between the Protestants and
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: Catholics in Northern Ireland, but the people take make such
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: a fuss about it, and there's something equivalent to that
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: in every corner of the world today, absolutely Russians, Ukrainians
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: and all these things. So so you wander to be sustainable,
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: I think we really need to know how to strike
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: a balance between seemingly incompatible elements.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: And I think poor you.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: Are you your life is a living example of this principle.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Now, thank you, thank you, ken, I appreciate that. So
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: they the next one you talk about, I really like
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: this one, and the joy of little things, So talk
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: us through that. I think your chocolate and tea might
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: come in here.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you know, well, so you should know
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: that the most prestigious part of the Japanese culture is
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: the tea ceremony. This is really surprising. I mean, the
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: samurai warriors when they were fighting each other, really took
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: it seriously to have a tea ceremony. I mean, this
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: is really comic, but this is true. I mean, so
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: that's especially made of teahouse and they would go there
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: friends and foes, and they would put the samurai sauce outside.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: They are not allowed to bring their sauce and once
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: in the teahouse and once they are doing the tea ceremony,
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: they took it really seriously. And this is a really
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: comic but a strange fact of the history that when
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: the Summari warriors may really want a really important battle,
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: sometimes they prefer to be given a prestigious tea bowl,
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: you know, just a teaware, to be given a castrow
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: and ran. I mean the t bows tea wears were
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: considered to be so prestigious and highly priced. After at
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: the end of the day, it's just a artware. I mean,
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: it's something that you can break so easily. But they
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: took the joyable things so seriously, I mean the Summari warriors.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: So I think there's something in Japanese culture that takes
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: that joyable two things are really seriously. As you observed
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: in that sushi restaurant in Single Yes, yes, just at
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: the end of the day, it's just sushi, right, it's
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: just a piece of food, but they take it so seriously.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, and and and so this this ichy
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: guy can be found in the little I think this
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: is where the difference is between the true echy guy
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: and and the thing that a lot of Westerners, because
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: of that diagram think is a gy guy that I'm
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: doing work that is my purpose, right and and but
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: it's not, isn't it. You can have anicky guy and
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: grow growing vegetables. You're talking in your book about about
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: growing growing vegetables and eating your own vegetables or making
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: some pottery and those sorts of things, right.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And so there's this really funny story about you know,
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: I had some Americans visiting Japan before the COVID pandemic,
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: and I, you know, asked them to try the perfect route.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: I wrote about the perfect route. And you know, in Japan,
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: a piece of meron can be sold for something like
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: two hundred US stars.
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: It's really yes.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: But but they the Americans came to Japan and they
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: tasted it and they went, right, if you come to Tokyo,
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: you should really go to the same bigie store and
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: they are saying the meron it's so perfectly, meticulously prepared
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: and the taste is so heavenry. But anyway, it's two
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: hundred dollars for you, and it's.
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: Wow, there you go.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: That is the joy little It's really crazy.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think you would have something like that
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: in Australia.
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: No, I don't. I don't think in Australia.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: But in Japan, I think they really take that whole
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: idea beauty. And I believe that the pottery, the old
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: pottery in Japan is appreciated because it has imperfections in
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: it and there are right, and they don't like the
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: mass produced stuff that is all the same. Right, it's
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: the little joy in the imperfections.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, because every one of us is imperfect,
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: you know, yeah, nobody is perfect, right, yes, so we
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: accept that, and I think that's one of the most
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: beautiful aspects of Japanese culture. I'm not saying that Japanese
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: is a perfect country in terms of gender equality. The
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: Japanese women unfortunately not so, you know, we're treated compared
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: to other nations in the West. And what else. Media freedom,
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: We cannot say that the Japanese media are so free
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: in terms of reporting on government programs and so on.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: But having said that, I think the wonderful things about
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: Japan too, and the joy of the two things, all
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: these things. I think that's probably one of the best
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: aspects of Japanese culture because it can relate to any person,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: no matter what social state as you might be, and
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: you don't have to be filthy rich or outrageously successful
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: to appreciate the joy of the two things.
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, that's a great level.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because if you go to the States, I always
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: showed that people continuously ask the networth of people, I mean,
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: how much that somebody have, and that's ridiculous. And you know, yeah,
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: how it is in Australia. Do you have the same culture.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's quite interesting. When I was here backpacking twenty
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: years ago, Australia culture and television and all of those
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: things was heavily influenced by the British. And actually it
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: was thirty years thirty years ago when I was backpacking,
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: and then I came to live here seventeen years ago,
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: and I was quite surprised about how much they'd swung
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: away from British culture towards American culture.
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: But still still there is there is still.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: A strong core of of of Assie in there. That's
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: that's quite unique. Yeah, which is is quite nice, and
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: there's some there's some very refreshing things about Ossie culture
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: that you know, is very raw and very real and
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: so so the next one, the last one that in
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: your five Pillars is and I love this one. It's
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: about being in the here and now, and so talk
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: to us through why that is? Well, it's it's it's
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: a large element of Vicky guy, is it not.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. And you know, just like you, I'm
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: a neuroscientist and my life long goal is to understand
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: how consciousness arises from the brain. And we am James
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: who was an American psychologist. How yeah, we am James. Yeah,
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: he talked about the stream of consciousness. Yes, and you know,
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: the stream of consciousness is always about that he aren't now,
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: You know, we are always in the specious moment, right,
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: And so the Japanese culture without knowing modern neuroscience, of course,
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: you know, to really seriously the importance of that he
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: are now, you should really come to Japan at the
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: time of the charity person cherry blossom.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: That's what we want to do.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean people go crazy. I mean it's
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: the ephemeral beauty of the bosom that really makes people happy.
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: And you know, so in the Japanese h the idea
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: of permanence is quite different from the Western culture. When
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: we talk about the permanent beauty or eternal values. It's
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: always considered to be in the here end now. Actually
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: there's nothing else, I mean, everything is Yeah, So Ikey
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: Guy is about how to you know, really focus on
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: the joys and uh, you know things at the here
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: end now. And I think that's a really important aspect
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: of Ichi Guy in terms of temporal dimensions.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, you know, yeah, it's really interesting. There was
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: a guy Matthew somebody or I can't remember his name,
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: but he did. He did a large research study on
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: happiness and where he gives people an app on their
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: phone and and and would buzz them and they would
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: read how happy they were in that moment moment and
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: what they were actually doing right, And you had thousands
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: and thousands of people in this study. And what it
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: turns out that whether you were doing something negative like
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: sitting in traffic or doing something that you enjoy wasn't
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: really the biggest driver of happiness. It was whether you
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: were in the moment. So you could actually be in
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: the moment in a traffic jam and be happier than
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: if you were off doing something else that you would
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: think would feel happy. But your mind is wandering elsewhere
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: and this whole idea of the being in the here
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: and now is really critical because, as you say, you know,
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: all we have is a series of moments of the
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: here and now. And isn't it interesting when you look
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: at depression and anxiety, right, the two major mental health issues,
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: and depression is the leading cause globally of disability adjusted
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: life years, right, the loss of quality life. Depression is
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: the biggest thing. But in both cases, if you think
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: about depression, that is where you're lamenting on the past,
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: and anxiety is this concern about the future and what
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: bad might happen. But in both cases we bring the
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: past and the future into the here and now, and
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: that's when it causes us damage.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I understand that you're dripping up.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: For for resilience and yeah, yes.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah so is that Is there an aspect in your
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: app about, you know, helping people focus on the here now,
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: being in the moment?
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: Yes, well, there's there's certainly we have a large thing
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: about about gratitude and and and thinking about the little
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: things in that in that that you have in your life,
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: so that that would be as close as we get
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: to that present moment. But it's it really is I'm
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: starting to just uncover how important that is about living
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: in the present moment. And actually, my wife, my wife
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: has studied Japanese psychology and Marita therapy. Marita really yeah.
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so she is how fascinating.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: Yes, and and and she talks about Maurita talks about
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: three things showman, Marita, accept things as they are, know
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: your purpose, and do what needs to be done in
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: that moment.
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: Right, And.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: It's pretty brilliant, right, three little things. But if you
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: just accept things as they are, you know your purpose
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: and you do what needs to be done. So, yes,
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: I'm feeling a little bit depressed, but what needs to
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: be done right now? And and linking your actions to
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: your values and your purpose, I think is is what
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: what can help get people out of strife.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I listened to your dialog with your
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: wife about nikan and oh yes, yeah, Nikon is about
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: being in the hair now. I mean, so there's this
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: really strong tradition in Japanese Buddhism. You know, it's not
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: just about Buddhism. I think it's a really uniquely Japanese
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: version of it, with the emphasis on how to be
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: in harmony with yourself and no matter what your social status.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: Maybe this is important because of course you want to
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: be successful, and of course you want to make money,
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: and that's understandable because we are all living in that
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: modern world. But the Japanese unique approach is, no matter
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: how successful you might be, well how what a failure
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: you might be, you can always be happy in a
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: sense because once you know how to be in the
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: now and accept yourself, then it doesn't really matter. So
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: you know, this is the idea in Japanese philosophy. I
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: think you know, of course you right to be successful,
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: but even when you become successful, it doesn't really matter.
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: And you know, so if you study the history of
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: the Japanese modern economy, you find many, many examples of people,
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: you know, who really strike it rich, but in the
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: end they don't really care about how much money they have.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: And that is the only element that would make you happy.
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: And you know that would make a Ragilian life a
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: topic that you're studying now.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, look absolutely, and I think there's a lot
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: of leaks the stoic philosophers as well, and yeah this, yeah, yeah,
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: where it's just about you know that we externalize our happiness,
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: but actually, how many people do do we know that
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: are very wealthy but depressed or not very happy, right,
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: And but you know, it would remind me of that
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: being in the here. And I remember reading I was
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: reading about Zaen and Zen Buddhism when I was in
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: my early twenties, and I, you know, was exploring lots
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: of different philosophy. And I remember this Zen Cohan where
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: this this training monk and went to went to the
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: you know, the head monk, and he was saying, you know, Master,
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: how do I how do I reach enlightenment? And the
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: Master said to him, have you finished your breakfast? And
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: he said yes, And he said, then then go wash
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: your bowl right, And and you know, I was like,
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: what the hell does that mean? And I thought about it,
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: and I thought about Nana forgot about It was only
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: years later that that that it was a bye and
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: and it was I was in something about mindfulness. I
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: was at some conference talking about mindfless and and the
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: power of it is about being in the present moment.
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: And I just remembered that Zen Cohen, and I'm like,
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: now I understand what it means. It's about being fully
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: engaged in the present moment, in whatever you are doing
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: to give it your full attention. Yeah, so that that
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: that here, and now.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: You should really you should really visit one of these
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: zen temples. I mean, uh, when the Buddhist monk monks train,
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: that's exactly what they do. I mean, they go through
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: the deaily rituals of routines of eating and then cleaning
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: their boats and sleeping the gardens and because meditating and
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: so on. So there's nothing particular about the training. Actually,
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: it's something that we do every day. So some people
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: sometimes people say that the whole purpose of training in
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: the temple is to realize that whatever you do in
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: your daily life, it's like a meditation. I mean, no
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: matter what you do, every action in your daily life
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: is a meditation in itself. But you can't realize that
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: unless you go to the Buddhist tempo and.
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: Do some training, yes, and engage it. And so are
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: you guys having that? Sorry, I know you've got to
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: go in a couple of minutes. Are you seeing similar
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: things in Japanese use that we are seeing throughout the
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: Western world and that definitely big rises an anxiety and
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: depression with all of the social idea and being similar.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we have our shell of that problems and the
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: problem poor is that you know, we have all these
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: wonderful traditions and I'm sure Iran and or sure you
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: have all these wonderful traditions, but you know the Japanese
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: young youth, young people forget and they are not connected
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: to this route. So I think that's why it is
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: important to a farm or are revisit all these wonderful
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: virus that having tested with time.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: And absolutely yeah, whether it be historic philosophy or zen
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: Buddhism or the shalloon templar or Hinduism. You know, there
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: are there's so many things that that that that people
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: learned over the centuries. Right, So just just to sum
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: up came before you go, and just some quick advice
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: for people about finding the wrecky guy. Other than so
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: there's the five pillars. Is there any little bits of
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: advice that you would give to people outside of those
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: five pillars?
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I always think it is very important to find
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: your inner child. I mean, because you know, ich guy
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: is about not to lose touch with your in a child,
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: because when you're a child, actually you know all these
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: things intuitively, you know, starting small, being in the hair
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: now and releasing yourself a child is an expert in
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: releasing himself lf right, But as we grow older, we
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: forget all these things. So I think the best recipe
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: for eachy guy is two make your in a child
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: active and alive all through your life.
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: And yeah, spend time. Spend some time. Spend some time
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: with little children, right there is children.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: That's a really great way to remind yourself of how
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: children behave. And I suspect you're doing exactly that.
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and and and it's amazing just when you
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: see little kids get interested in something, really little ones
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: and they're so engaged, and yeah, it's pretty fantastic. Now
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: can we we We didn't I know you have to
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: go because you've you've got another meeting. We didn't get
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: time and to talk about your new book, The Way
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: of Nagomi.
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: So so here's what we do.
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: When is it being released?
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: Uh, April April?
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: So can we can?
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: We can we get you back on the podcast and
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: when you release your books to talk about this.
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: This has been fascinating. I really enjoyed every second of
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: our conversation. So it's my prettyer and I do hope
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: that you can come to Japan and enjoy sushi and
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: do the Cherry Broson you know, out of my ceremony
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: with a kind of a couple of cups of saki
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: and so on.
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: So anyway, thank you absolutely I look forward to that.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Ken. This has been fabulous. So that's a
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: wrap for today's edition of the podcast. If you're enjoying it,
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: please leave us a review, as they really do help
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: much more than you think. Remember to check out the
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: show notes for today's episode, and also remember to hit
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: subscribe so that you get notified early of new releases
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: of the podcast.
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: See you next time.