Latest / The Adults In The AI Room / Jeff Coyle on AI and Content Strategy - Episode #12

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Jeff Coyle on AI and Content Strategy - Episode #12 · The Adults In The AI Room

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Listening to the Early AI Podcast.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Here we talk with top leaders and practitioners on what's possible and practical with AI and the enterprise as we move from the current state to a future of cognitive assistance and embedded AI in all aspects of our personal and professional lives.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: If this is your first time, we invite you to subscribe wherever you listen to the podcast.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: And now here are your host, Seth Early at Chris Featherstone.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to today's podcast.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Seth Early.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm Chris Featherstone.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's good to be with you.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so before we get started, I wanted to give a shout out to our sponsors, uh, Simpler Media, which is CMS Wire, uh, and uh Marketing AI Institute, and of course, early information science.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, today, our guest is a man who is obsessed with SEO.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: From early in his career, he's been involved with search engine optimization and content marketing.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: He's a consummate process optimizer and a lover of craft beers.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: Please welcome to the show uh co-founder and chief strategy officer at Market News, Jeff Royal.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh thanks, Seth.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, how you doing?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: And uh Chris, how you doing?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Good uh that wasn't a golf clap either.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: That if I could, I would, you know, like really be uh you know clapping loud and we'd have like tons of applause.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe Sharon can actually put that into the background of like push like what happened to the old school push button, you know, where you just like you know, have soundboards.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but that's that's actually what I um when you know, when we have all the devices, all the cool stuff for all the you know formal podcasting type stuff.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm getting a soundboard so we can do that kind of stuff.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: So that Jeff, when you hit it, it sounds like you're at the you know Academy Awards.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: You need to get an automated AI soundboard that has buttons that it knows what you will buy.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right up analytics.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: That would be money.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we you know, I that's actually what um what I did what I've done for a lot of years is speech and and uh you know language and speech.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I should do it off the NLP.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's yeah, exactly.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: As soon as you say, Hey, thanks for letting me this show, boom, yeah, it goes.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: If you have any anecdotes that you always tell, like all these stories, you're like, okay, we're set up for the story, and then it's like the one-minute discussion about how AI will change the world.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, or or the or the really lame phrases you come up with, and it just has like a you know, one of those, you know, kind of you know, sounds, but it is, it is what it is, it is what it is.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: You just keep backing it, you know, stuff like that.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'll I'll tell you what, I think I think uh, you know, before we get into the super fun meat of uh of what you do on a day-to-day, I think let's let's talk about your craft beers.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, all right.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: I saw that in the notes and I was like, wait a minute, we didn't talk about craft beers.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: You've done some research on me.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well I want to know.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: I want to see, so where are you based again?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I'm in Jacksonville, Florida, uh, but I recently moved from uh the Golden Isles of Georgia, which is St.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: Simon's Sea Island, Brunswick, etc.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: So um so I'm I'm back and forth.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's about an hour away.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: How do you how do you create and win an award for a Mexican lager being you know where you are in the US?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds that's a great question.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so uh so yeah, so if those don't know, I'm the co-founder of Market Muse, but I also am the co-founder of a production brewery in South Georgia.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um that was started uh in a we we started in around 2017, but we um mid mid 2020 of all times we opened and um it is both a retail uh beer garden tap room as well as a production distribution facility.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um how do you win?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's our number one is I just want to know what what makes it a Mexican lager.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like, oh you know, do you put do you put the worm in it?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: What do you do?
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what I'll say is just just a perfect setup for this conversation.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: If you type in what is Mexican lager or Mexican lager, guess whose site you're gonna find?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, yeah, so silver bluff, uh Silver Bluff is that brewery, but Mexican lager is um the term is a little bit enigmatic.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it references uh when uh folks came from Eastern Europe and Central Europe from Germany, Austria, primarily, and taught the uh Mexicans uh uh uh how to brew in the way of the Europeans.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of the beer, a lot of the original beers that were created, and I'll keep this short because I can go real long.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of original beers that were created were um that's for the beer podcast.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: That's exactly right.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we're uh uh uh uh uh Vienna Lager style, which is a little bit of a darker amber, a little bit of a lighter amber.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then in the the commercial interests moved um production beers in Mexico very light to what they call Claras, which you might be familiar with, like a corona.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um I love the whole sphere of of that style.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um great Viennas in the United States might be like Devil's Backbone if you're familiar with them, all the way, and there's a lot of people making uh those.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: So Mexican lager can mean anything in that sphere.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: We make one that's right down the middle of the Clara and the Vienna, and it's just awesome.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how it goes.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and yeah, we did.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: We won the 2020 medal in the 2020 US Open, and and that continues to be uh the winner for us.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: But we we have quite a few.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: We have about I think we've made about a hundred production releases, and uh um we ship about five of them throughout Georgia.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: So nice.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I've been I've been studying that um that the the two oldest things in civilization has been beer and wine.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: And in fact, you know, it's what's funny is is you think about old biblical terms and stuff when um you know, I believe uh you know, Joshua and Caleb were sent into the land of Canaan, they came back with milk and honey, right?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, and and they weren't necessarily making bread, right?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: So they came back and they're like, That's a meant that's the land flowing with milk and honey.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: And they had a a bushel of of grapes and you know, and some and some other things.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: And they came back and said, you know, here and you know, what were they making?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they're making wine and and uh and beer and mead, right?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of a things, and you know, so it's it and it's it's absolutely a super fascinating process.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: So my set my hat's off to you and just but maybe there's I mean, obviously, there's probably so many like microbrew and brewing podcasts and all that kind of stuff.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: So don't know you do that, but yeah, it's fascinating.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: Well, talk a little bit just to add it to as a segue.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_03: You think number one, if you if you put in a Mexican lager, your your site comes up number one.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: Now, how did you achieve that as a new uh entry entry space?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: It it was really uh um we haven't done as much as I'd like from a content perspective for that site, just because resources and it's something that we will as you know, uh, but it was honestly a an internal case study for market muse, eating our own dog food, as I hate the phrase but say a lot.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um I say eating your own cooking, eating your own cooking, yes, that's great.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so uh interestingly enough, I did that um as an example internally just to illustrate the process of starting from scratch.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because it's it's a daunting term.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: People think, oh, this takes a lot of time, and here's what you have to do.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Here's getting the main and and what I want, and and and honestly, all of that came out of market music.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, I have a to-do list that's like 25 items long that we will do, and and and honestly, I can predict outcomes, uh, and but but it's honestly it's not just outcomes, it's just predict the appropriate set expectations with content.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's to say, like, if we're gonna go take this shot at this topic, it's gonna it's gonna cost a lot of money and it's gonna take a lot of time.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, but these are these are layups, and why are they layups?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because we have great breadth of coverage, we've got great depth of coverage.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: When we write about it, it's good content.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: It tells us.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: And let's back up just a second.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: So you and I met at um at the marketing AI conference, which years ago, yeah.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yep, Marketing AI Institute is is one of our sponsors.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: And uh at that time, I remember going to that conference and thinking, oh, these are just gonna be a bunch of marketing folks who know nothing about AI, they're gonna be fun.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_03: And I was I was very, very pleasantly surprised about the depth and the detail and the knowledge and the expertise.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I actually got, I think, three case studies from my book, The AI Powered Enterprise, which I have here because I'm at this conference.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_03: So a little plug, but but you're in there, plug.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: Plug the book, plug the book.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, ready.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but Jeff is in there and the company is in there, and the reason why you're in there is because you have some great technologies and approaches for being able to leverage things like knowledge graphs and ontologies and uh predictive analytics and and content uh scoring to be able to actually uh do the SEO at scale and at a at a at a an effectiveness that's truly incredible.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_03: Why don't we talk a little bit about um, and again, I talked about in the book, but why don't we talk a little bit about your past to get it because that's an interesting story.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I went to college at Georgia Tech uh for computer science.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um and when I was in school, I was really fascinated by both user interface design, user interface software, like the Jeff Raskins, the Jacob Nielsen's of the world, and what everything they've put into the world.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but also the earliest versions of search engines and how they work information retrieval, um, search engine design.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: At the time, it was like very rudimentary text search, um, and the basics of information retrieval, which to this day is to me, I'm gonna make a lot of people like roll around.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's the biggest knowledge gap in search engine optimization, is they don't people don't know the difference between information retrieval, query analysis, and um how search engines work fundamentally.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it's something that I'm trying I'm constantly trying to do, like separate these vocabulary words.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I I did some stuff on that and I started to work at a company called Knowledge Storm.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: And Knowledge Storm, um, I was a junior and it was in in college and it was an internship.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: I uh funny story about that.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't tell normally, but it just seemed like appropriate.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the first week I was there, I uh my the one of the persons there.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: I I was on a uh a study abroad trip and I got back before the other interns started.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I had a one-week head start on them, and I heard the head of BD and the head of product talking about man, I wish we had a good competitive analysis.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: And four days into the job, I dropped a hundred-page competitive analysis on their desk.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: So then I became head intern.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, okay, that's that's a true story.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that and the guy whose desk I put that on has was my mentor and has been my mentor for 23 years.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: How odd is that?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh yeah, Jeff Jeff Ramager, check him out.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um he now runs a an amazing agency for content strategy called Brand.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: You took advantage of you didn't say, Oh, let me wait till the other interns get here and then I'll start working and people can tell me what to do.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: You were like, jump on it, let's get ahead of it.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: Wish we had this.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, boom, you got it, and it was good, it was really good.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh, and and so then I we were what we were doing was we were selling leads to software companies, and the way that we would do that would be to convince them to put content on the internet.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: Shocking, internet this internet, this internet thing is yeah, right, big.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: So we were like, we're like, hey, it's a temporary thing, it's a fair 1993.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_03: I was driving down Boyleson Street in Boston in a taxi cab right next to the Heinz Auditorium, and my my friend turned, my colleague goes, he turns to me, he goes, This internet thing, it's gonna be big.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: We were like convincing like IBM, for example, hey, you've got white papers, like put them on the internet, and people will give you their information to download them, right?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then and then we turn that into a website network of partnerships, 240 websites.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I was uh I was part of the product creation process for a lot of those websites, um, the lead generation, um, lead uh scoring, um, lead qualification, lead management um platform, as well as the search engine that powered imagine it was like a uh a search engine combined with an ad server that showed the right white people, white, white, white, white papers to the right people.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then they would most likely be interested in that.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, like if you were information week, right, which would be a partner, you could plug in a knowledge storm white paper module, it would read your content and it would show you the most relevant white papers to that content.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: And we were doing that like 2003, right?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so then we were purchased by Tech Target um uh in 2007, where I stayed on for eight years and ran their in-house team, which was all everything that relates to traffic A B multivariate testing, um, paid organic, uh, social community, content strategy, uh advisory, search engine optimization, both technical and organic.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: So basically anything that could yield traffic for my website, I've probably uh managed it for that network.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: We had over 200 websites, grew that traffic dramatically.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: But most importantly, I got to work with an amazing editorial team there.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: But they were there's a butt, I know, and not knocking anybody there, but they had a lot of old style practices, right?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, these were experts in their field.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like the person who knows the most about internet security is an editor there.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: The person who knows the most about being an editor, frankly, in technology is the head of editorial.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I am coming in, leads SEO, technology, ai, and I'm like, here's what we should write about.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, yo, what do you know?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: I've been writing about this stuff for 20 years, right?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, the data tells me, the data tells me this, the data tells me this.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: And and and it was like, and so I learned all these processes, and the thing that I learned is first of all, experts are the most important thing, and and they still are.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I had known that in 2007.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we'll click on experts because that is that domain knowledge expert or whatever.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Subject matter experts, yeah, yeah.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Domain experts, a person who's understands the ins and outs of the operations of editorial, these are the skills no one has, and then the SME is the skill that no one can have, right?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you bring the key on content is bringing enough information to get the most out of those uh impossible to duplicate resources, right?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: And but I learned that the hard way, honestly.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I by by the time my my time that we had smoother processes, but I knew that some of these manual efforts could be automated or semi-automated, and then I met my co-founder.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: I had a 30-hour process it would take to build a beautiful topic model for a concept.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: It basically would say, if I were an expert on this topic, here's the things that I would naturally cover.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: He had distilled it down to four minutes, and my brain exploded because his graph, his case, his his topic models were better than my manual ones.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, and I was like, let me ask you that.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: Let me ask you that because you know the SEO brought some of the first uh black arts type of uh you know approach.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, you guys, uh what I what I want to get a sense of from from you, Jeff, is how much how much manual, how much human in the loop was needed to actually get, you know, really optimized results because we're talking about not only a brilliant search engine, so you have to have a good topic model to understand what to index and what to search.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: You have to have the content that's organized in a way to search it.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then you also have to have, like you said, the scoring mechanism in order to know how to bring what results back, and then almost the personalization side of those things to then have targeted ads.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: So there's like four or five different intersections of things going on, and how much of that was your a your intelligence as opposed to actual artificial models driving that.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many questions packed in there, but I cannot there's a lot of there through this.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's what I'm saying.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like you've got magic rigidness of the four or five things intersecting at the same time, like uh you know, an intersection in DC, it's more along the lines of it's multi-dimensional system.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, what what I'll what I'll say is so the best way I can describe it is yes.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: No, yeah.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yes, maybe.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or no, you the funny thing is so I gotta go.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: It depends.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: So so the I call them, I've been calling them this for a long time.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's kind of uh catching on.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: I call those the SEO diapers.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's depends.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it depends.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um so so the um uh so the the funny thing about it is SEO is it does so there's so many pieces, and over the last few years, what you've seen in the breakouts, uh technical SEO has become its own field, and you've seen actual investment in SaaS for it um with companies like Botify.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, most recently you saw um on crawl get purchased by Bright Edge, you see um Content King be acquired by Conductor, but people realize that the technical side is is critical to the success, and that's gonna be things that impact user experience and information architecture, um, like speed, structure, um, redirection, and and and all the things that like I call them the invite to the party in SEO, right?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't have your technical stuff buttoned up, you can't even get in the door, right?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: Or you're gonna be stunting yourself, you're gonna have to fight for your invite, right?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like, and and so a lot of times when I run into an example, can you give an example to what you'll give you a I got piles of examples, right?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but here's a here's a good one.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if your site has gone through multiple CMS migrations and then has never been analyzed by a uh someone who really understands technical SEO, it is highly likely that you've caused trauma every time you've done a platform migration.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that trauma is fixable, it's also addressable ahead of time, but a lot of times people will ignore that.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Another example would be and what are this?
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: What are the quick just with bullets?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, uh so uh redirects if you do a URL, if you do our URL changes, um redirection, if you remove URLs and replace them with new pages, if you remove URLs and push them to uh bulk redirects, all of those things are gonna impact the way that search engines understand the content dynamic of your site as individual pages, as site sections, and as an entity, as a site entity.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: And all of those are gonna influence your bottom line.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: So let's say I another example would be um you tell the world who you are with your site, and you tell it to them with the content on the site, but also the structure.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: So imagine this you've got a page, I call them one in ones, right?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: So a one in one is a page that gets one link from one other page, and it's so let's say you wrote an article in 2017 and you rely on it for traffic, and then over time it has no links to it, it just goes down in the archive, back archive, back archive, back archive.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Now, to get to that page, it takes seven clicks from your home page, all right, and no one else is linking to it, you're not interlinking it through the state.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: What did you just tell Google?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: You told them this page isn't very important, it's not important, not important and burying in deep URL structures where you have you know, uh thought leadership art appear, right?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: And it and it's so down in that URL structure, that that hierarchy, that taxonomy of structure that you lose all of that uh juice, you lose all this, right?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I've seen that.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_03: I've seen like I'm looking at these things going, why do you have that structure?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't make sense, right?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's not even intuitive, yeah.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, and another example would be for one reason or another, business decision.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: We removed a page that had been seen as important.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Important.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine I always like to say you're you uh you your easiest way to think about it is it's a jaw with a bunch of teeth in it, right?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: It hurts pulling teeth out, right?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: You pull a tooth out and there's nothing to replace it.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: It is my my my uh one of my uh team members at at uh at Knowledge Storm and Tech Area he's a technical SEO lead at CoStar now.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: He had this awesome graphic.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was a uh a site that had pages removed.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it looked, I mean, he made it look like it was like a the a terrible root canal of the pull of the and but it's not just the impact on that page, it's an impact of all the pages that are connected to it, but it's an impact of all the pages that are semantically related to it.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: So when you go that page that answers how do you get bees out of your garage, your entire home, your entire home improvement section has has takes takes a hit.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: They all feel it, they're all crying a little in the corner.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's what technical SEO kind of drives is like you gotta do a redirection, you gotta do replacement value.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we see it all the time, and um people don't like because it's not um it's not immediate uh gratification.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Technical SEO is not instant gratification, it's delayed attribution, so it's hard, it's hard to get money for it.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: But my goodness, it it is it's an important thing.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: So the other piece of it is the content side and the structural side.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, by the way, there's black hat stuff.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: We call it white hat, black hat, gray hat, right?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: There's black hat arts in all of these pieces, right?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but what I like when you say black hat, you're talking about things that are workarounds that are not really um, they may get results, but they're violating you're violating the terms and conditions of the search engines or the guidelines that are set.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um what I the way I like to address it is first of all, I know all that stuff.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone wants to ask me anything about anything SEO, shoot me a note.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm also like a dead letter office.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm Santa Claus of SEO.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: People send me so much crap, it's hilarious.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I have I have a stack of like 150 Google resumes, like I have everything.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like people people shoot me stuff that they shouldn't.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: But the um, so the um the the key on that is um uh there's a Google research scientist, um, he's very influential, but not very well known, named John Wu.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: And he he he didn't say this exactly, but I like to trans, I like to uh to transform what he stated, and I like to say cheating is time correlative, right?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: You can cheat, however, over time you're gonna get caught in any game, no matter what it is.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: If you cheat, you're gonna get caught.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: If you cheat in your BMW, the impact of your cheating is a insane disaster, like insane disaster on the on the business.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: You can't cheat if you're a brand.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: And these the sometimes people they teach and they sell you their courses, and they're preaching for because if their sites go away, if you know uh I'm gonna indoor room humidifier dot net goes away, you know what they do?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: They go buy air purifiers for you, dot net.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that kind of an impact, but the stuff that gets preached in this world of search, the snake oil perspective comes from folks that if their site goes down, they just make another one, right?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: You can't do that, right?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, there's too much at risk.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Technical, technical correlations, link manipulations, you gotta be brilliant to get away with anything sub, and the same thing goes for content, and it's happening right now, and I know we're gonna get into that, but publishing low quality content is like I mean, I watch it all day.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: It is a time bomb when it's on a big brand site, right?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: And and so, but when you think about it, you know, people go to all I love when you watch these programs on fraud and these scams, all this people go through so much work to do it wrong.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's like you can go through less work to do it right, you know what I mean?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: It's almost like, why are you even bothering with this?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: Right, you're gonna get out, it's gonna get, you know, there's an end to this, but doing it right is less work, you know, in a lot of ways, right?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: But it's also like you will get you what you'll get sometimes, it doesn't happen all at once.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's not a car crash, sometimes it's just slow burn, and you don't have that correlation.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: So and I I've seen, and and I'll give an example of that.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a large um travel website who publishes content um that is generated and it's low quality, it's very low quality.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um I've sat and looked at back and watched them degrade, and I'm like, they don't realize what's happening to them.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really know anyone there, but I'm like, this there's a there's a reason, there's a they're there, and so then they remediate it with quality, they don't realize what the canary metal mine is.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: They don't know the but let's look at the other end of the spectrum.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: There's lots of organizations that are creating enormously valuable content, and yet they're missing the boat.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: Uh content isn't being consumed, heartbreaking surface, and it's like, wait a minute, you know, this is this should be going in the other direction.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: So you want to talk about some common mistakes, and then let's talk about you know how you think about the space in terms of you know, a little bit under in the weeds around the AI, because this is a you know, when I looked at your stuff, I was like, okay, these guys really get this is real AI, this is real machine learning, and it's also about semantics and about knowledge graphs, and there's so much that can be done to uh to take this high value content and and and give it its its day in the sun that it needs, right?
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I mean I I'll tell you some commons, but Chris, were you gonna add on?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I just think along those lines, you you can't fix stupid with content.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: So let's let's declare that.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: But but I think as as you go along, you know, just to add to uh Seth's comment there, in what areas can you automate utilizing those technologies in order to save yourself the headaches of, like you said, skipping those pieces that will end up you know biting you in the app?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: Those are great questions.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it's what I talk about a lot.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's you you don't want to rush the way that the easy way to think about it is um Seth, you're at a selling course for Sandler.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna I'll use a Sandler uh or by the way, I I'm also a huge fan of Bob Apollo and Inflection Point and um Dave Call and value selling.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, these are my like that's my uh my tri force of of value-based selling.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um IBM consultative, uh, their internal stuff.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um so don't jump, don't ask them to marry you with your content.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Don't expect that you're gonna be able to go right the bottom of the funnel and get leads and sales immediately.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then the third I'll say is don't expect great content to just appear out of a black box.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that those are the right now the most fundamental like outcomes of bad choices in content.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'll say the the best way to think about artificial intelligence's possible impact for really strong teams is that it's improving each stage of the content lifecycle.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I like to look, I like to think of it as your research.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what do you how do you do your research?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: How do you do your planning and prioritization?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: How do you decide what to create and what to update?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: What are you on what reasons to create, reasons to update?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now we get into the operations side.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Critical fall down for most B2B technology works is content operations because they're not thinking like publishers yet, right?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Publishers think like publishers, but they have editorial subjectivity that usually causes issues.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: B2B tech, like they kind of see like, hey, I want to write this stuff, I want to own this topic.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: How do I get there?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: But then operations a lot of times falls down.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then and so what what that would go into so research planning, then briefing, right?
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Briefing is the handshake between the editor or the GM or the executive team to the actual writers, um, so that they know what's expected of them, they know which SME they're supposed to be interviewing as their source material, and so that they know that the draft they send isn't going to get kicked back to them.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: And let me let me break that down a little bit for folks uh not familiar with some of the terminology and the parts.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_03: So the idea of of this is you know, you take a topic, you take a concept that you want to, as you say, own right in in in terms of organic search.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_03: Now you can pay for that, it costs a lot of money to get you know traffic, or you can optimize the content in order to you know organically get that traffic, right?
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_03: I just get past the ads anyway, right?
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I go right to the stuff that's at the top, or the first, you know, several.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so the idea of doing that means you don't just write about that concept, you write about the semantic space around that concept, right?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_03: You enrich that content with related concepts, related terms, with related phrases.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: And what that does, and and there's a number of other pieces, but what we need to do is say help editorial understand what that semantic enrichment looks like.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: So they write content that contains not just the concept, the target concept, but the related terminology and the related uh semantic space.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: And what that does is it it boosts the ability to uh get that ranking brief or content brief.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: Content brief is the whole idea of a here's what you need to do in order to structure your content, in order to create related uh pages, in order to link internally, in order to you know have all of your content optimized on related concepts, and all of that together boosts what that ranking is.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean you've you crushed it on that.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's the unpack of the day for sure.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: The yeah, I was gonna say, I was gonna say, Professor early.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'll turn in my uh essay afterwards.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what I know, but what I'll add to it though is it the coolest part about it.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot in there.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's the coolest part about it is it makes sense when you for a business because yes, as a business, all it's the thing that all the teams can get aligned on, and it's why market music works so well.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's and what they can get aligned on is don't you want to put your business's best foot forward with the content and tell the story that you're experts on this concept, no matter where in the journey someone is, you know, whether you're an IBM and your care consider choose, or if you're awareness consideration purchase.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I want to I want to reinforce the people that we're not we're not this isn't a sales pitch for market muse, but about it because it is so powerful and because it is such an excellent uh uh approach that makes sense and really leverages the technology and machine learning and semantics and knowledge graphs and all of that.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_03: And there's there's a lot behind the covers, but here's what I have noticed in many organizations.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_03: I've talked to editorial teams and I've said, tell me what terminology you're trying to optimize on.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_03: And you know what they say?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know, we don't have any sure.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's that's exactly what I'm gonna say.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_03: No, wait, but wait, wait, wait, think about that.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_03: They don't know what to write the content on, so they're writing their content to meet the needs of the audience, they're writing the content that's great, great content, but there's little tweaks that they need to have, and that is the data-driven piece.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_03: That is the part that is so measurable and so impactful.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry, Chris.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: No, you're good, you're good.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: No, you outlined this unbelievable, like step-by-step process on how this should happen.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, there's no doubt that you are an information architect anyway.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: And that and I and I think well, you know, going back to Jeff's comment, where you know, because like you said, you're also you're I was gonna bring up the exact same thing.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: Then why are so many damn companies missing this whole thing?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right, and why do they not figure it out?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it's because they don't have somebody that's thinking about the meta architecture of their content and information, right?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_03: And there's so much noise in that space, right?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_03: There's so many people, oh, I'll get your ranking in this.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_03: I'll get I mean, we've we tell people we do this as part of taxonomy work, but we never put our foot forward and say we're SEO optimizers.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's like we don't put our foot forward and say we're AI experts either, but we here's the stuff to do all this.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: But but again, I think the problem is there's so much misinformation, it's such a crowded space, and it's getting people to understand these core concepts so that they can take the right steps.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Jeff, do you want to I'll give I'll give you three other problems, right?
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: I got so many, there's so many problems, right?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um hence the why market muse is here.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, let's just be clear, right?
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's exactly so.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, go ahead.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Many of these large organizations believe that it's almost like a verb that's part of an assembly line to hey, can you SEO that right?
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's not how it works.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's not it.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: Not only is it not how it works, because you need that in your decision making of what to do, you need it embedded, you need it in all stages, but it also hurts people's hearts.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: The writers and the experts, they spend all this time on this content and then it gets touched by someone that doesn't know what they're talking about.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't you rather for that writerized, yes, yes, you rather for that writer to have gotten the information ahead of time and been able to weave it into their narrative elegantly and that and then give them?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: Then there's less kick out, there's more trust, they actually get more done, right?
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so what you have is that's those are the pieces of it.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: But then what if you go through that process, right?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I like to say there's four types of plans.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: There's a little bit, there's like five or six, but four types of plans.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's quick wins.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: What are the things that if I were to create or update now would have the biggest impact on my business?
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: One of them is going to be goal-based, it's the stuff that we all agree we need to do.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: I want to own what is an ontology.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: I want to own awareness-based content on ontologies, right?
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: What do I need to create to do that?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's uh competitive risks or other risks.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: I have a competitor that's just beating my house down, or I have a page that gets too much traffic.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: So many people that are listening to this, go look at your analytics.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: You got one page that gets more than 15% of your traffic, huge existential risk.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I can and and the other one is org, just like my my CEO decides what we write.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_03: Now let's ask I want to I want to dig into that when you say this existential risk.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_03: Why is that?
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh gosh.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um those those pages um are likely not treated as well or cared for as much as they actually contribute in the value of your site.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: So those things need to be like the manicured lawn, and then they also need a foundation underneath them.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: They need so sometimes you write an article, it does outsized well or it punches above its weight.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: You need to go back and build.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you need to build foundation to make sure that that scaffolding does not fall down.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, another case is you write something that has historically done well for um many reasons, and it's not current, it's not current factually for today's intent, it's not appropriate for your business messaging.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: And if you go, people are afraid to touch that stuff because it's like I don't want to upset the Apple cart, right?
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't touch that stuff, you're at risk.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: If you touch it wrong, you're at risk.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so building such that those things are benefits to your business versus risks.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times those pages sit on islands out at their arms and they're out here and they're not taken in and engulfed in the structure of the site, that's a core problem, right?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: And and and and what's interesting about that is it really does uh, you know, it it it because of the risk associated with that high traffic content or page, uh, people don't know what to do with it.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_03: And if you bring it, you're screwed.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: But how intentional, uh uh uh validated data-driven decisions to make those changes and to build around that value, right?
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the dovetail with what you said, yeah, the dovetail with what you said is, and why I brought up that specific example is because we have to get our entire team away from a one-page, one-word mentality.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: It you have to have content that covers a topic comprehensively, that walks through the entire journey that you expect to be servicing.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: I have a quote, um, it says, You don't deserve if you if you don't have if you're not there at the beginning of the funnel, you don't deserve to be there at the bottom of the funnel, basically.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so early stage awareness content on this topic.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now let's go 3D, like Chris said.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: We're going 3D here.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: Early stage awareness content on this topic, on this topic and related topics, on this topic for beginners, on this topic for experts, on this topic for industry specific, if it's relevant to me.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: So on ontologies, I may need early stage awareness content for first day.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: I may need it for the Seths of the world, I may need it for people who are in data science, I may need it for marketers, I may need it for, you know, in order for me to truly achieve my audience on this one topic, one stage, I may need piles of content to tell the story.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm an expert.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: Now go to consideration, same story.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: Now go to purchase.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: Now the stuff people forget about post-purchase troubleshooting, right?
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: Post sale docs, post-sale docs, absolutely.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they're it's totally whole journey and life cycle.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_03: Now, you I I didn't recall the other.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_03: So we just dug into the one out of the four or five.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_03: Do you want to you you you you talk talk a little bit about those other problems again?
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_03: Just refresh us on those.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, which ones?
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_03: Gosh, I've talked about so many.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_03: Well, the ones, the ones we were just talking about said there's four mean others.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: Go ahead.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: Let me ask this.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: Let me ask this because you're you were also tugging on a thread.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's that's I think really, really interesting.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: And it's centered around, you know, now you're starting to get, you know, making sure that your content is super crisp but also segmented, right?
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I think about this in terms of the overall business value of this, is to drive, like you said, to the beginning or the top of the funnel activities and or uh create brand and loyalty, you know, brand awareness and loyalty and keep people you know engaged, because that's what it is, is basic basically just human engagement.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um how do you measure and you know, and can you do working backwards from let's say an ROI model for those things?
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: Because you know, like you said, you can't do, you know, if you do one word or you do one page or you do one, now you're driving a risk profile that's that's crap.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: So how do you get to how do you get to knowing what you're doing is the right things?
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: The cool thing is that you and Seth asked the same question.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um the I'll go to that kind of the goal-based or or goal-based planning.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um the thing that's missing in the market is return on investment, associable, associable, and expectation setting.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's it's knowing who you are.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: So the way that you can get inspired to write something or to do something comes from three different places, right?
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: Who you are today tells you a lot about what you can be, right?
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: So if you go to Seth's site and he's like, I really, really want to be the world's leading expert on Boston Terriers, Seth.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry to tell you, you're gonna have to write a whole lot of content on every dog breed you've ever made.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna have to go get certification, you're gonna have to cover the dog shows, and you're gonna have to, you know, also illustrate that you know everything about brachiocephalic dogs, right?
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know everything about them.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's the squish face dogs, in case you're uh worried about that.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, um, and and and and guess what?
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: Here's how roughly how much content I can do competitive cohort analysis, which would analyze all the content, all the sites that have covered those, look at their progressions.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta write like 14,000 pages on dogs.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: Are you cool with that?
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I mean I'm making an exaggerated example because what happens a lot of times in your organization is your CEO goes, yo, we should write about Boston Terriers, and the content strategist goes, Cool, I'll write a comprehensive guide to them and I'll put it on our blog.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, it won't work, and it's not because of links, and people think it's just because of links or social media attention or whatever.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's you don't you haven't shown them that you know them, know them.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, that's a Dave Call quote from uh value selling.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: Show them you know them.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you haven't shown them that you know them, right?
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, why do you deserve to be the source of the guide for Boston Terriers?
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: You don't now take that to a goal-based situation.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: We want to own ontologies.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, we haven't written content about semantic analysis, we haven't written content about topic modeling, we haven't written content about information retrieval, we haven't written content about um you know the how search engines work, or you know, I'm just giving examples now.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_03: Now, now if we wrote if we said we want to uh uh and this is something that does rank for us talk taxonomy and ontology, right?
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_03: Or the difference between taxonomy, then that's a very specific segment.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, right.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: That is that idea of saying don't try to look at a broad, broad topic, start to look
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: How it can be yeah, the coolest thing about it here is it's super meta because you have to illustrate much like an editor would, much like a beautiful book writer would.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: You have to illustrate that you know it all, unless no one else knows anything, then you might be able to get away with being able to knock it out with a short.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: So the quick wins a lot of times piggyback off of what I call intent mismatch.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got an article about what's the difference between an ontology and a taxonomy.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: I know your site really well.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um and um what if what if because there's just like a gap in the market, um, there's a question about um can I build a uh multi multi-root taxonomy with owl?
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: All right, cool.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um super, super intent.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: But what if your page on what's the difference between ontologies and taxonomies is the page that is ranking well right now?
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: But your page doesn't answer that question, all right?
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's called an intent mismatch.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: So people are searching Google for this, and for one reason or another, there's I because I asked a really weird question that actually has no answer.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's no one, no one will answer that with your but your your your thing's showing up, right?
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: So people click on that and then they're like, Hey, this doesn't answer my question.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: Shucks, right?
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right now, what's your choice?
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: Answer that question in that article or write a new article and link to it from that one.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the quick wins style stuff, right?
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times this happens on home pages for B2B tech, right?
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I rank, I I rank for some reason because I got all this brand awareness.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: I rank for revenue intelligence software with my homepage, right?
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: But you get there and you're like, where's don't tell me anything about revenue intelligence software?
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: So if I have that early stage awareness intent, now I'm going hunting and wayfinding, right?
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: So those are the types of experiences commonly the content strategists need to operate within.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: They need this type of data to answer those challenging questions, so that when someone says, Hey, we want to own ontology management software, you're like, Okay, this is the content pool that we have to build.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: And why?
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because all the content about this, it all goes back to what I started off.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: All the content about this operates in a blob and it grows and it gathers steam and it's a snowball blob, right?
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: So your what is article allows you to have the comparison article rank well and allows you to answer the question about how do you get bees out of your garage, and it allows your support for them to rank well.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and if you don't have it all operating as a machine, yeah, things start falling apart, and then you're susceptible to competitive risk.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I was just gonna ask because let's say that you know, um to your dog example, I I mean I don't necessarily like cats, but let's say I'm not on the you know I was gonna say tingle cats, you know.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well, like like you know, let's say that I'm the owner of cat fancy or something, right?
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to, you know, I want to get ahead and and beat out everybody who loves dogs and actually try to convert everybody.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna put employ all these, you know, activities and really this, you know, this guerrilla marketing effort to get this done and completely you know, steal bag and borrow, right?
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: Good artists borrow and great artists steal, right?
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: All this content and generate all of this rhetoric around you know why dogs are inferior, whatever it is, right?
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_02: And just completely blast it out there because guess what?
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: The dog people, let's say Seth's the dog guy, he doesn't have all these things in place, so he's screwed, right?
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, part of that, I think you know where I'm going with this, like, you know, it it seems to me that that you know it's like interest, those who understand it earn it, and those who don't pay it.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: Those who understand these concepts will benefit from it.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_02: Those who don't, I'm sorry, but you're just you're gonna you're uh gonna get it's gonna be a zero sum bomb.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe I don't know if that makes sense because it's does.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: I so I have a great example that ties completely back to Seth Early and everything he's about.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and by the way, he he is he is truly the cat fancy guy, right?
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: I agree, right?
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: So no, so and I and I by the way, I've worked on dogs and two cats.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've got two, I've got two.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sorry, go ahead.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: All my examples go back to Boston Terriers.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: I've got two of them.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so um the reason why this is a great example.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I've worked on so many animal pet sites because you know why clicks on pet sites are worth lots of money.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so lots of people spend a lot of money writing about pets, and so I've done everything from an architecture for the largest website in the world that covers dog breeds, which I've collaborated on, all the way to some dude who bought a website from this other guy and it's about cats, and he just doesn't know what to do, right?
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, but here's the the critical part of why this ties back to taxonomies.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's I love everything goes back to taxonomies.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm such a taxonomy nerd.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I probably said the word taxonomy.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder in our lifetime, oh, you've clearly said the word taxonomy more than I have, but anyway, uh, but I've said it a lot.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so think about it, right?
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: You write content.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say you want to own this other concept, right?
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes that concept doesn't fit within your taxonomy, but let's say you still want to own it, right?
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: People jump to the end again, just like doing generated content without checking it, which is bananas.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: Would you would you buy an outsource?
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: Would you go hire an outsource writer on Craigslist and then throw it on your billion dollar company's website without looking at it?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: That that's what's happening right now.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_02: That happens, I'm sure that happens quite often.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so would you so what happens is they want to jump to the end.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to look at coffee cups, coffee cups, and but I also want to own beach vacations.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, what do they think?
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna write an article.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: What's the best coffee cup to bring on my beach vacation?
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: Guess what?
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't work that way.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's a different situation.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's not exactly what would that's not the bridge content that's needed.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: The bridge content that's needed is that I cover everything there is to know about beach vacations, I cover everything there is to know about coffee cups.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: Now I also have to figure out what are the what's what do those taxonomies look like and when do they intertwine?
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the natural, that's exactly right.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so and that's how the search engines think about your site.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: You are authoritative on topic site section combinations.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, say it again.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: You are authoritative on topic site section combinations.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: This is the critical thing, and the example I use is Johns Hopkins.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody would agree they are a pretty awesome authority on medical information, right?
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: But is there a careers page?
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: Is there a career section?
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, no, yeah, their career section is not authoritative, it's not the source for medical info.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, but the rest of their site is so the search engines have to be that smart.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's a big O M N problem.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's topic site section combinations, it's topic site combinations that have to be evaluated for authority.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: So now you have to think like that, right?
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_03: And oh and I'm sorry, O M N.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, uh big like big O, which would be like computational, uh computational math, and then topic site.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, every one have every the search engines have to be that smart.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: They have to be that they have to actually evaluate site level or site section level, page level to topic.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: So a page and a site can be about tens of thousands of topics, right?
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and and and then they have to basically like grade those things.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to think like that.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: So if you want to own a topic, the bridge topics aren't the marriage today, the coffee cups of each vacations.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's to say, okay, well, what relates to that?
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like nothing, it might be so think of it like you know, six degrees of of separation, six degrees of Kevin Bacon.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you have to actually do that with your site.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: I have a great example of this with a B2B technology company.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: They were um, they had two product lines, right?
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um one of them had no presence, and one of them had heavy duty presence.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: And they were like, Well, why can't we just write about this one?
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, You can write about that one, it's just gonna take a lot of effort.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: There's another path here.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: You can start writing about these adjacent topics to the main concept and become an expert there because those bridge to this other one, so it will act as your your springboard so that the other one won't take as much of a lift.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, Yeah, but we don't have a product in those middle areas.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, I don't really care.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really sorry, but I don't care.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking at the end goal, and so you've got it, but but you guys are experts in this, right?
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, another example of that, and they did that, by the way, and had wild success.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: Another example of that is a different dynamic, but where two product lines with one company, um, and they were like, Hey, we want to grow 30 leads to both of these product lines.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I said, Well, one of them's 180 articles, and they're on these topics, this one's 60.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_01: Up and there was like 20 updates for each, and they're like, yo, we're doing the 60, because that's what people do.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: They do the and we'll put this off until next year.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and yeah, it did what it said.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: So those are the types of experiences everybody has.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_01: But remember, when you're jumping into a new topic or semantically related topic, sometimes you can make it a whole lot easier on yourself to understand how those taxonomies and ontologies work because they make they make your life a little bit easier.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's where people make such big SEO mistakes because they're they're thinking about these like key uh strings instead of things.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, uh I I wanted to uh just make one uh comment, uh, and then I also want to uh thank our sponsors again, um uh Marketing AI Institute, uh uh the uh CMS wire and uh uh simpler media and of course early information science.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_03: And uh we're here with Jeff Coyle from Market Mus.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_03: I think Sharon can somehow insert that in the middle because I forgot to do that before.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_03: But um we have you know we're right at the top of the hour.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_03: Do you have a couple minutes to keep going?
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, certainly.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll be speaking, I'll be speaking at Marketing Artificial Intelligence Institute's event, uh Mecon in uh uh this year.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: So wonderful.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: When is that event?
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: Go to Cleveland.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, I'm my brain is not remembering the notes.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's all good.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_03: Let's uh let's keep going a little bit.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um so uh uh Chris, you were you were uh um sending me a note about your question around when does AI how far does AI go in and perspective?
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I'll just give you my my thinking here.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I always say that AI is in service of humans, right?
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't replace humans, it's in service of humans, it supports what we're doing, it makes us more efficient, it reduces our cognitive load.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_03: Now, I believe there's always going to be that need for expertise and human judgment, right?
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot that the tools do, but you know, I'm very familiar with market views tools, and uh there's there's complexity, right?
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_03: There's judgment, there's the need to kind of think of this stuff strategically.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, Chris, did you wanted to ask your question about yeah, yeah, I think it's I think it stems in, you know, there's a lot of these pieces that you know the I mean Martech has has jumped leaps and bounds, not only in ability, but just in number of damn tools out there, right?
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's it's daunting in terms of somebody going into it and what the the marketing organizations actually have at their fingertips to be able to use.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of that is also, you know, like we've been talking about, where do I go?
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_02: Where do I start?
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_02: And can I automate some of these individual areas to help give me the empowerment or the enablement to make the insightful decisions that you guys are talking about?
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_02: And the same time, uh you know, like you said, Seth, that it's there to reduce the cognitive load and at the same time empower me to do more.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so, at what point in your, you know, like when you think about today and where you've come from and the future, what do those next inflection points look like?
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_02: Will AI take over some of the more mundane human aspects and then get us to okay, now I can really do more because I don't have to worry about indexing everything all the time, or I don't have to worry about scoring everything, or I put a good system in place to do that.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, obviously it's how much really relative.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, I'd love Jeff to get your thoughts on where we're at today and what does that look like in terms of where you know some of these artificial intelligence type techniques will actually really take over to help facilitate more?
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: I've got piles of response energy for this.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_01: This is fun.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what I'll say is uh a lot of times people ask me, will AI take away the jobs of writers?
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I say yes.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and then I laugh and I say, Yeah, really, really low quality writers are going away.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: The value, the bar is lifted already, it's already there.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so when you go buy a$50 or$100 article from a writer, um I'm making up a percentage, but say 80% of those content items are generated and then tweaked because that's the reality right now.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so the bar has been lifted on low quality content.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: There isn't somebody in a room clonking away for a couple cents a word.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's it's AI assisted.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: So solutions are the the market has shifted in generation such that that's the reality.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this may scare lots of people, but what it actually does is it makes writing high quality content more valuable, it makes the low quality content the commodity um and everything in between.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, what if you can take a generated inspirational draft and turn it into something amazing, more power to you.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: If that's if that point of reference makes you do it and it's not derivative, it's not copycat, you're actually adding value.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, if that you've got to track your own time and you got to track how inspirational and valuable that is, does it represent your business well?
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: Does it actually slow you down?
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: Same thing goes for briefs.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: If you if you spend so much time building these briefs that it actually decreases your effectiveness, okay, cool.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: But most of these teams aren't tracking efficiencies at the time level, but also at the hit rate, the batting average level.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what you see with teams that are really, really leaning into the generation is they're getting a lot out there, but their hit rates aren't going up, which has a devastating impact down the road because your site operates as a blob, if you remember.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so the the the the the jobs that it will take um are kind of ones that maybe shouldn't have existed anyway.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and what you're gonna see is that generation changes the um the entire market.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: The market before was, and I'll short, I'll make this super short um for content touching was oh my gosh, I've never seen spellcheck before.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_01: It can't work.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's like, oh wow, would you could you imagine writing without spell check?
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_01: Then it goes to grammar.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh grammarly will never work.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_01: And now Grammarly works.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, great.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_01: Would you imagine writing without Grammarly or Hemingway?
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: Come on.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and or AcroLinks or something like that.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um now you go into content improvement or assistant for knowledge.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: First time people saw that, I know because they said it to me a lot.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, this can't possibly work, or is this some sort of SEO trick?
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, no, it's telling you how to be more like an expert.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_01: Now that's becoming mature.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_01: People realize they need this assistant during that process, right?
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then they're getting into oh gosh, can it also help me with operations?
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's the part that's people are excited.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, this might speed me up.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then the part that's in the growth phase for market maturity is the decision making and the BI.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody really gets the fact that this thing might be able to support my editorial decision making or my business decision making.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_01: But I just gave you two examples where it did with those two product lines and that initiative coming from the top.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually knew how much content needed to be created with them.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_01: Those are million mega million dollar business decisions made with AI, all the way down to I'm writing an article about content marketing strategy, and Market Muse tells me to put the word target audience in there.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_01: So all the way from the top, the billion-dollar business decision.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_01: Put it in there, yeah.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_01: Billion dollar business decision, all the way to the reminder to the writer not to forget this intent or this stage of the funnel or this word to make them differentiated against their competitor.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_01: A big difference for Market Mus is we tell you how to be differentiated against your competitors as well as comprehensive, not just copy them.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because another sad part of AI implementations is some of those solutions tell you how to copy your competitors, yeah, and spin and spin their content, which actually doesn't have the impact.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_01: What you when you use something like that, we get these people crying on our shoulder all the time.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_01: I say these people, they're wonderful clients.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we get wonderful clients all the time where they went like this because they were doing the copycat tricks, and then uh oh, and I was like, We should have been doing this the right way the whole time, right?
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that that and that's part of it.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_01: So the the jobs, what what this frees up is the long story long here.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: The what this frees up is the writers get to write, they get to focus on narrative development, they get to focus on production value, the editors get to be developmental editors.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_01: Developmental editors are different than line editors, they help you, they help you cultivate the memory, make sure it's on the voice, make sure it connects to the rest of the site.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_01: They get to be those things more than SEO editors, and none of those people are doing keyword research, yeah, which isn't their job.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_01: I always joke around.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's like asking, oh wow, you're a great chef.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_01: Do you farm?
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_01: So we ask these great writers uh to be SEO experts.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_01: We ask we get these great writers to be keyword research people, like they're not going to be good at that.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like asking a great SEO to write, and then the punchline to that is SEOs writing is easier than it is, and they want the solution that generates, they're driving the bus over there.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they want that generative output that passes muster and can be successful.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_01: What they really need to do is become more empathetic on how content operations works and how editorial content strategy really works.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_01: And the the businesses that are bringing those teams together are the ones that are gonna win, and that's been my fundamental that I've been seeing from the top of the rooftop.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_01: We gotta get a solution that brings makes SEOs and editorials, editorial teams work together, and whoever figures that out will win this space.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_01: I hope it's me, but I just hope somebody wins this space because when you bring editorial and SEO together, yeah, and they actually believe in each other's mission, beautiful things happen.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful things happen.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well, as uh you know, uh Seth's always right, it always comes back to these damn taxonomies and the right type of content and content structure, right?
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_03: So everything kind of does.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm a hype man, I just don't know hierarchy.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's like you I don't care what you look at, there's a hierarchy in there, and there's a relationship between hierarchies.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_03: No, there's no higher it's anyway.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_03: I can go on for that on that topic for a little bit.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, Jeff, what's what's in store for you for 2022 besides speaking uh you know at you know in Cleveland?
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_02: What else what else what else are you looking forward to?
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking forward to I'm releasing a um uh a totally appropriate tax talking about taxonomy solution.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that is it allows users to naturally navigate topics.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's gonna provide an x-ray on how search engine result pages work and ideation so that they can weave that into their decision making.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really excited about that.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm also looking at we've done so much research on how users use editors, and so tuning up the way that our editor, our text editor works.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds super nerdy, but it's really important.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_01: Editor is in the tool rather than the role.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the actual text editor.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and um, and then I'm looking forward to uh instead of just doing 112, I think last year podcasts and webinars, actually getting back to conferences.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh even though some of them are still getting postponed.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I yeah, I'll be at Content Tech in end of May.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I will be at uh Maycon Content Marketing World, um Rhodium, which is a if you're an entrepreneur, awesome group for um uh for entrepreneurs.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then really just focusing on what matters, which for us is tying everything back to return on investment.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um I really, really want people to become, you know, if you look at the progression of AI, there's like the market maturity of AI.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um it it all drives towards predictive.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_01: And um I'm confident that what we do is predictive, but I want to make sure that that is crystal clear.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_01: I want I want people to feel confident that they can actually put a cost on a content plan all in against a project, and then that it will have the result uh a meaningful level of confidence on the return on investment.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_01: And if I can do that this year, I'll have had a really good year.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_02: Then you know that's that's your 2022 mic drop.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_02: Then nice job.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much, Jeff.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's been great to have you.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we'll we definitely can continue on this topic for you know many sessions.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_03: I know when you and I always get together, we we've had a lot.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um thank you again.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Sharon, thank you for your work in uh keeping uh the trains running and and getting this out.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, uh Chris, thank you so much for your time.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_02: Always a pleasure.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Jeff.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_02: Great to get you in.
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, thanks for coming on and and in you know just inspiring us with all of your help.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're any if you're anywhere from Savannah all the way down to St.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_01: Mary's on the Georgia coast, um go uh go grab a silver bluff.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_01: Very cool.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_04: Talk to you next time.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to the Early AI podcast with your host Seth Early and Chris Featherstone.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_00: We hope you enjoyed the program and took away some ideas that you can start to implement in your organization right now.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_00: If you're stuck and need help, check out www.early.com for information about early information science and services.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, check the show notes for links to any resources we mentioned today.
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's all for now.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_00: See you next time.